Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I went to one of my favorite restaurants in Dayton for lunch today in male drab mode along with my biological sister.  Shortly after our waitress seats us at our table and gives us our menus I can't help but overhear whats going on at the table behind us.  I look over and there are these two ladies minding their own business when I hear their waitress come over and say in a nasty voice "We are sorry but we don't serve men in dresses here."  "We want the both of you to leave our restaurant now."  Almost immediately everyone in the restaurant started looking at this couple like they were freaks.  It just turned my stomach inside out to where I lost my appetite after I witnessed this.  I could not believe this restaurant's staff could be so cruel to TG people and their SO's.  I was so mad it made me almost want to go over to that waitess and bitch slap her across her face for outing these poor humiliated ladies right in front of everyone, but I kept my cool and told my sister that I just lost my appetite and I think we should leave.  It wasn't long when this lady and her lady friend walked out the door with total embarassment written all over their faces.  I felt so bad for them.  My sister and I left the restaurant shortly afterwards and will never go back there again.  The thing that really got me was both ladies looked very convincing and were wearing pretty outfits, but yet their waitress still made it a point to out them and humiliated them in public anyway.  Anyone ever have a similar experience? 

Shannon

No, but I would have made it a point to the manager why I was leaving.

Melissa

Is that even legal?

just reinforces my theory "People suck!!" >:(

legal? ican't imagine so, I know really upscale places can give you crap for not fitting the dress code, but I'm assuming this is just yer regular ol' restaurant, call the better business bureau on them, im sure its not legal.

Hi everyone,

Unfortunately in most places in the US, the trangendered community is not protected from discrimination in public accomidations.  "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone", being the mantra under which discrimination occurs. There are a few states that do not allow this, along with cities such as NY and Los Angeles, that also do not permit this type of discrimination.

Here in CA we are protected from discrimination in housing and we are protected from "harrassment", but the law excludes "verbal only" harrassment.  The way the law reads, I beleive that such an act, here in CA, would be unlawful.  I personally have never had any trouble, even though I am not passable for the most part.

It's really sad to think that there are people that think they are somehow going to stop transsexualism with discrimination.

Love always,
Elizabeth

That's insane. I would've raised holy hell if I'd witnessed the same thing. Personally, when I experience discrimination from some ignorant S.O.B., I try to turn it around on them... not necessarily the discrimination, but the criticism. Someone can't tell whether I'm male or female? I ask them if they're suffering from a lack of education. Granted, I'm not an MtF, but if I were, I can imagine myself in that position (of the woman in the restaurant) responding with something like, "Excuse me? I have no idea what you're talking about." I could carry it through to the extent of threatening a lawsuit for slander. Maybe the law doesn't protect transsexuals, but it does protect people... and slander is slander, regardless of sexuality, gender, etc.

Rafe

Is this a chain restaurant, we're talking about, or some family-owned business? Cause if it's a chain, I want the name and address so I can send their home office a letter that will also be forwarded to the Better Business Bureau.  Illegal or not, it is horrendous customer service and I personally want as many people in as many higher up places to know that I won't stand for it.  I think that most of us should be doing something to express our displeasure with any establishment that treats TS this way.  Power is in numbers and the squeaky wheel gets the oil! Nothing will change so long as nobody complains about it.

If it were me I would've made sure that the manager (and most of that restaurant) knew why I was leaving and I would've left that bitchy waittress a nice little tip. On a napkin. It would have said: "Here's your tip: Next time, remember to close your mouth before you put your head up your ass."

I pass fairly well and if someone challenged me, I would respond "Excuse me?"  I think that would fill them with enough doubt to backpedal.  Well, discrimination is illegal where I live anyhow, but I've never had a problem in a public place the whole time I've been transitioning.  Maybe that's why I haven't seen a a display like this before.

Melissa

About par for the course in Ohio.

I think this is illegal and should not be tolerated.  I would appreciate it if you could provide me with the name of this restaurant.  You may send me a PM to do so.  This type of unjustice must be stopped at once!!!


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

I am writing a letter to the CEO of this restaurant chain to let him know what happened today at this location.  I told him in my letter to him that I also plan to write a letter to the Better Business Bureau too if there is no action taken.  I have written him before many times and he is a really nice guy.  I have to say he does follow through when there is a problem at one of his restaurants.  I am not sure if the staff at this location had a problem with one of these TS's using the Ladies Restroom or if the manager or waitress there just wanted them to leave.  With his reputation on the line, I am sure the CEO will have a talk with that manager and waitress and will get to the bottom of this once and for all.  I will let you know what the CEO has to say.  He has always sent me a reply before to let me know how he has resolved the problem and he does keep his word I have to say. 

Shannon

If you've had to write that CEO many times before, I'm surprised you were still even going to that restaurant to begin with.  Yikes!  If something bothers me enough to write to the head of a company I don't usually return to that place of business.  You have the forgiveness of a saint!

I have complained before about the service at their other locations.  One time our waitress was too busy talking to her boyfriend that it took 20 minutes of us waiting around at our booth just to get our check so we could pay and leave.  When I brought this up to the CEO, he apologized and sent me a coupon for a free dinner there for two the next time we went.  I later found out that waitress got fired over this incident.  That location has since gotten a new manager and its much better now.  I still eat there all the time and the service is now top notch.  It does pay to complain sometimes.  This is the first incident that I have ever seen at their Dayton restaurant location.  I would have normally stuck up for these ladies but there were some rednecks at the bar that were much bigger than me and I felt that I was completely outnumbered.  I certainly did not want to make the situation any more worse for those ladies than it already was.  I felt the last thing these ladies needed was an all out braul going on all around them.  :o

Shannon   

           What company is it?  Which restauraunt? They need more than one letter and they need to be outed in public just as Denny's was because of their treatment of African Americans.





beth

Quote from: beth on July 15, 2006, 11:47:52 AM
           What company is it?  Which restauraunt? They need more than one letter and they need to be outed in public just as Denny's was because of their treatment of African Americans.





beth

Agreed!

Chaunte

Shannon,

Regardless of the reply from the CEO, please write a letter to your State and Federal senators and representatives about the incident.  All too often they say, "We don't know of any harassment in our state."  You can probably do so on line.

Robyn

Quote from: reikirobyn on July 15, 2006, 08:13:26 PM
Shannon,

Regardless of the reply from the CEO, please write a letter to your State and Federal senators and representatives about the incident.  All too often they say, "We don't know of any harassment in our state."  You can probably do so on line.

Robyn

Good idea Robyn.  I will take your advice and send our State and Federal senators and representatives a letter too about this incident along with one to the Better Business Bureau.  I think I can send them online.  I think what may have caused this whole incident to occur in the first place was when one of these ladies used the Ladies Restroom.  Not sure if one of the patrons or staff complained to the manager about this or what exactly made the waitress out these ladies in public.  Like I mentioned earlier I only overheard the waitress saying "We do not serve men in dresses" and asking them to leave. 

Its too bad our country can't seem to adopt what Brazil is now doing.  They just passed a bill down there recently to provide public restrooms for transgenders at all the major venues, bars and resturaunts.  Maybe someday our country will follow their lead and do the same here so situations like this won't happen anymore.   

Shannon

Quote from: ShannonI think what may have caused this whole incident to occur in the first place was when one of these ladies used the Ladies Restroom. 

If this is indeed the case then this may cloud the whole issue.  At the risk of inflaming members, (well I'm sure that this WILL inflame members) but I'll just point out that if the person in question was a CD who was trying to look like a woman then I can see where the management may have been upset and it may also have been the result of one of the other female patrons complaining to the manager when they encountered a man in the ladies washroom.  I don't think we got the complete story.  Personally I feel that even if you are a letter carrying TS, and it's your right, unless you pass very well you should stay out of areas such as washrooms and change rooms, you're just asking for trouble for yourself.  And I believe that CD's should stay out of the opposite gender washrooms completely.  Am I being narrow minded and prejudicial maybe.

Bash away...

Steph

Quote from: cindianna_jones on July 16, 2006, 02:28:32 AM
I got run out of a restroom once. It was extremely embarassing.  The security guy came in the restroom. That in itself was bad enough. It was one of the worst nights of my life.  I was so ashamed.

It is not fun.

Cindi

What???  I'm assuming this was a long time ago (as in years...), please say it was....because I'm already having a cow about Shannon's story... seriously...I'm so ready to fly to Ohio and slap that waitresse's face that you have no idea... >:(



tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Quote from: Steph on July 16, 2006, 01:49:21 AM
Personally I feel that even if you are a letter carrying TS, and it's your right, unless you pass very well you should stay out of areas such as washrooms and change rooms, you're just asking for trouble for yourself.  And I believe that CD's should stay out of the opposite gender washrooms completely.  Am I being narrow minded and prejudicial maybe.

I don't think that's being narrow minded or prejudicial, I think it's being impractical.

If I'm out en femme and I really need to go to the toilet (I do try to avoid it) there may be a chance for embarassment if I get outed in the ladies room but I think there's a greater chance to being assualted if I go to the men's room looking like that.  It, unfortunately, becomes a choice between the lesser of two evils.

I think it's the same dynamic (with possibly less serious consequences) in changing rooms.

The Transgender Law Center has released a good document on this very subject: http://www.transgenderlawcenter.org/pdf/pipguide.pdf  It's a big file but very informative, speaking directly to this issue.

helen

Quote from: Steph on July 16, 2006, 01:49:21 AM
If this is indeed the case then this may cloud the whole issue.  At the risk of inflaming members, (well I'm sure that this WILL inflame members) but I'll just point out that if the person in question was a CD who was trying to look like a woman then I can see where the management may have been upset and it may also have been the result of one of the other female patrons complaining to the manager when they encountered a man in the ladies washroom.  I don't think we got the complete story.  Personally I feel that even if you are a letter carrying TS, and it's your right, unless you pass very well you should stay out of areas such as washrooms and change rooms, you're just asking for trouble for yourself.  And I believe that CD's should stay out of the opposite gender washrooms completely.  Am I being narrow minded and prejudicial maybe.

Bash away...

Steph

Steph,

I agree that I do not know the entire whole story of why exactly this incident happened.  I really could not tell if this lady was a crossdresser or transsexual because she did look pretty convincing.  I only overheard what they were saying behind me and it was enough to really upset me.  What really upset me most was when the one waitress asked their other waitress across the room what was going on.  She raised her voice to reply and basically told the other waitress that and I quote "She is a man in a dress," which was enough to let everyone in the entire establishment know exactly that this person was transgendered.  If they had asked these ladies quietly to leave its one thing, but when they blurt it out so everyone in the entire establishment can hear is another matter in my honest opinion.  I felt the staff handled the situation very poorly.  Most of the patrons were shocked, but most of them kept to themselves.  I was so mad that all I could think of was to leave.  I now wished that I had spoken to the manager about what happened exactly, but I was so very upset and I did not want them to think I was being too nosey.  I am going to ask the CEO what is their policy when dealing with transgenders and the use of their public restrooms.  Surely he would know what their company policy is.  Who knows, maybe bringing this incident to his attension may lead to serious changes in their current policies in the future that could prevent these embarassing situations from happening again.  I always found that I can get far more out of people if I can encourage them to do the right thing rather than arguing with them for doing something wrong.   We shall see.  :angel:

Shannon

In any event the staff handled the whole situation very badly, especially as you've revealed that the two waitresses were shouting to each other about it.  Did you happen to get the names of the two women who were asked to leave?  That way you could let them know what you intend to do and if they plan on taking a stand themselves.

Steph

Steph,

Unfortunately I did not get these ladies names.  They were so embarassed that I could tell they just wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible, which they did.  I certainly did not want to make matters worse for them because everyone was staring at them as they exited the building.  I do not know of their intentions in this matter.  If it were me placed into their situation, I would have contacted the CEO of the restaurant chain, Better Business Bureau, etc.  I already started my letter to the CEO and will send it out sometime this week by mail.  I could email it to him, but I rarely ever get a response using this method, but if I mail them the letter in writing directly to their headquarters then I always get a response from their CEO. 

Shannon

Quote from: Steph on July 16, 2006, 01:49:21 AM
If this is indeed the case then this may cloud the whole issue.  At the risk of inflaming members, (well I'm sure that this WILL inflame members) but I'll just point out that if the person in question was a CD who was trying to look like a woman then I can see where the management may have been upset and it may also have been the result of one of the other female patrons complaining to the manager when they encountered a man in the ladies washroom.  I don't think we got the complete story.  Personally I feel that even if you are a letter carrying TS, and it's your right, unless you pass very well you should stay out of areas such as washrooms and change rooms, you're just asking for trouble for yourself.  And I believe that CD's should stay out of the opposite gender washrooms completely.  Am I being narrow minded and prejudicial maybe.

Bash away...

Steph

We are taught that men are sexual preditors.  They are either guilty of being a preditor, or they have not yet been caught.  Regardless, men are guilty just by having the XY chromosome pattern.  And it does not matter if we are wearing a skirt and are on HRT for the past decade.  At least, that is how I interpret the law and the predijuce level against the TG community.

I have to agree with Stephanie.  Unless you can prove on a legal document (driver's license) you are the gender you present, or the law allows you to use a washroom based on presentation, stay out.

Of course, if you are trying to make a point, go right ahead.  But don't be surprised if the judge doesn't look at it that way.

Chaunte

Now that I have a driver's license with an 'F' on it, it's raised my confidence level.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on July 18, 2006, 06:00:48 PM
Now that I have a driver's license with an 'F' on it, it's raised my confidence level.

Melissa

Hi Melissa:

I think we are both extremely lucky for not being outed like these ladies; it must feel horrible to be discriminated against like this. 

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Quote from: Chaunte on July 17, 2006, 06:12:56 AM
We are taught that men are sexual preditors.  They are either guilty of being a preditor, or they have not yet been caught.  Regardless, men are guilty just by having the XY chromosome pattern.  And it does not matter if we are wearing a skirt and are on HRT for the past decade.  At least, that is how I interpret the law and the predijuce level against the TG community.

I have to agree with Stephanie.  Unless you can prove on a legal document (driver's license) you are the gender you present, or the law allows you to use a washroom based on presentation, stay out.

Of course, if you are trying to make a point, go right ahead.  But don't be surprised if the judge doesn't look at it that way.

Chaunte

Yup, while we all have out principles and convictions, we also need a good helping of common sense, if not be prepared for the consequences.

Steph

Quote from: tinkerbell on July 18, 2006, 06:16:36 PM
Hi Melissa:

I think we are both extremely lucky for not being outed like these ladies.

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

For me, I think it's a combination of being in a good area, staying away from certain places until I felt I could pass, good genetics, and a little luck.  I've never had anyone call me on my gender and I am now prepared if they do.  I will act shocked and insulted and if that doesn't cause enough doubt, I can always whip out my handy dandy driver's license :).

Melissa

Melissa

Aha Melissa, the good old trusty driver license, however there are many who don't have that available to them.  And I'm not sure what you mean by genetics.

Steph

Quote from: Steph on July 18, 2006, 06:37:22 PM
And I'm not sure what you mean by genetics.

I ended up with some features that have made it easier to pass with such a short pre-transition.  Height is good.  Hand's aren't super large. Not a lot of body hair.  Not super big feet.  Etc.  Of course, maybe it's something else besides genetics, but I was referring to my features.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on July 18, 2006, 06:43:57 PM
I ended up with some features that have made it easier to pass with such a short pre-transition.  Height is good.  Hand's aren't super large. Not a lot of body hair.  Not super big feet.  Etc.  Of course, maybe it's something else besides genetics, but I was referring to my features.

Melissa

Ahhh I see, when you mentioned genetics I thought that you were speaking of some type of unique medical anomaly.  yes those who are afflicted with what you describe would definitely have an easier time passing.  But not always.

Steph


Posted at: July 18, 2006, 05:57:43 PM

---

Quote from: tinkerbell on July 18, 2006, 06:53:36 PM
I met Bea Arthur (golden girl's actress) personally once.  She is very tall, her voice is baritone, she has huge hands, and I think her feet are big too.....but she is a woman and no one seems to question that fact. ;)  Why should they?  we come in different shapes and forms, not all real women have curves....


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

And that's why I said not always :)  I've never had the pleasure of meeting her, but as you say us girls come in all shapes, sizes and colours :)

Steph

Well, I guess this restaurant chain has gotten some negative press in the past for not sponsoring AIDS events.  Here is an article I found on the Internet.   ::)   :o

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050126/NEWS01/501260464

I do think that lady I saw there that day was actually a transsexual woman and not a crossdresser.  If she was on HRT, I know some of those medications are a diuretic and they will make the person taking them needing to go use the restroom more often.  My sister-in-law is a Registered Nurse and she told me this.  I have my letter to the restaurant chain's CEO written and will be sending it off soon.  I hope my letter does not fall on deaf ears. 

Shannon

I am not surprised at all.  The article link does not work now BTW, says that it is invalid.

Fortunately for me I have not had issues in a restaurant nor in the bathrooms.  Well, unless you count when I was still trying to pass as male and doing poorly at it.

What part of Ohio?  I never had any trouble there or even when traveling through W Va and Kentucky to get to the Cincy area.

**Update**

I talked to the General Manager of the restaurant chain today.  She apologized and said there will be changes in their policies that will take effect immediately at all their restaurants.  She said all transgender people can use their restroom facilities freely without worry of being hassled by the restaurant staff.  She said this should have not been a problem before, but she has taken action against the manager at that particular location.  The waitress that I witnessed that had outed these two transsexual ladies really started this whole mess and the manager there was reprimanded.  The General Manager said all transgenders are more than welcome to come to any of our restaurants.  She welcomes any comments from other transgenders regarding their experiences at any of her restaurants.  Hopefully this issue at this restaurant chain has been resolved once and for all. 

Shannon   

Shannon, I went to that link and it said invalid. I would like to know the restaurant chain.
Steph, I have to disagree with you on the restroom issue. If you are presenting your self as one gender or the other you should be able to use the restroom that you are presenting. I don't think a dressing room would be appropriate, but the restroom should not be off limits. If anyone is ever outed, please be calm and make the remark, "EXCUSE ME!!!" and give them the dirtiest look you can muster. Do not admit to anything, unless you want to be vocal about it. You don't own anyone an explanation unless it's a law enforement officer. You should be who you are and be firm about it. Then asked for the manager or whoever is in charge. Take names. If its law enforcement take down their badge numbers and names.  Be polite to them. You are not breaking any laws.

I had a situation almost like that. I was at the mall though. I just got through using the restroom and this security officer approached me and said that I was not allowed to use the ladies room. I said excuse me, very mean. I said I had to go to the restroom. He said that men use the mens room. I told him good, I'm a lady and I use the ladies room. He looked at me very puzzled and then I told him that I wanted to see his superior, right now. He told me that wasn't possible and I took his name down and told him that he will soon be hearing from my attorney. He changed his mind and we went and saw his superior. I walk in and I told the chief that I was very much embarressed and that he told me that I'm not allowed to use the restroom in the mall. He in a sense said what, you can use the facilities anytime you need too. I'm so sorry and called the front desk and they gave me a 10 dollar coupon for any store in the mall and I left. I haven't seen that security guard there since. I learned to own my presence from my wife. She told me that if someone had ever done that to her she would be whoppin mad. I was and I did and I got 10 dollars taken off a pair of shoes at Penny's.
Sheila

Sheila, that's exactly what I would do.  They have no way of telling me apart from any other woman unless they are looking at my genitals.  If they are looking at certain features that may indicate I'm TS such as facial hair, there is no reason a genetic woman may not have the same thing, and you can bluff if it's based on that.

Melissa

Sheila,

That link was working just fine when I posted it, but now its content has since been removed apparently.  No matter since it no longer applies anyway.  The restaurant chain is Max & Erma's.  Do a Google search and it should come up.  Like I said earlier this issue has now been resolved.  The restaurant chain had also reversed their decision on the AIDS Fundraiser Event I mentioned earlier according to this following article where they decided to sponsor the event after reconciliation.  Its nice to know they support the GLBT community. 

www.gaypeopleschronicle.com/stories05/january/0128057.htm

Shannon

I was outed once by a supposed TS activist. Talk about angry.

I'll allow them to remain nameless...because I beleive the community would be rather outraged.

I know a lady who has a very nice little mustache. She has to shave every other day. People are so much blended that you really can't tell if they are male or female. I know some there is no mistake, but in general you should not have to worry, unless they pull your pants down. Just like someone talked about Bea Arthur. I have a kind of deep voice, but I sound just like my mom. It's not that deep.
Sheila

I shudder to think of the hell I would have raised.
That is so disgusting... Makes me think of the time that Denny's wouldn't serve a few furs who went to AnthroCon in 2003 or something.
(I'm part of the furry community. I roleplay online and draw anthro images, but that's about it. I'm not like those people in CSI!)

Call me dumb... what is a fur?

Cindi

That really is bad.. surely if someone is willing to pay money and be given food, surely it  doesn't matter what they're wearing or what they look like?

Max & Erma's?  Wow.  I've probably even been to that branch.

That kind of behavior is really disgusting.  Columbus is pretty GLBT-friendly at least near campus, but living in Ohio is definitely scarier than living in Minnesota :/  Wish I was transitioning in my home state...

I disagree that a transperson shouldn't be able to go to the restroom of the gender that they're presenting. If a biological male goes to the men's room while dressed as a woman, she's putting herself in significant danger of violence.

Also, there are plenty of people who don't fit neatly into one gender or the other, which bathroom can we use? I identify as neither (or both) gender, I've had more than a few times, when supposedly presenting as male, where people told me that I was entering the wrong restroom, pointing to the women's door. Are there going to be gender police outside every public facility? I personally would feel much safer if public single room facilities existed.

zythyra

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on September 25, 2006, 03:38:56 AM
Call me dumb... what is a fur?

Cindi

Furs have really bad publicity, and there is no real set definition of 'furry.'
For me, 'furry' means associating with likeminded people who feel an affinity for animals so much so that they choose one to represent themselves with, they develop it into a character and portray themselves as that character online. They interact with text as those animal characters, perhaps have spiritual beliefs surrounding animals, and may even engage in making or wearing fursuit representations of said character.

I've got a few characters, but my most common are a male Sable Antelope, a white German Shepherd dog, and in the past I've played as a female Short-Beaked Common Dolphin. Really my persona changes on my mood to reflect my inner feelings.
Generally furries are seen as deviants who gather to have group sex dressed as animals, have sex with animals and other equally strange things. Furries are stereotyped as fat middle aged nerds roleplaying hot female foxes whilst gorging on cheetos constantly with no social skills whatsoever living in their mother's basement. Whilst there certainly are some furries who fit this description to a very accurate 'T' most aren't like that.

If you want to see some of my anthro art:
http://susej.org/upload/files/iothrinn.jpg
http://susej.org/upload/files/iothrinnpose.jpg These two are my sable antelope character.
http://susej.org/upload/files/szephcharpic.jpg My white German Shepherd.

Hi All,

Draeden:
Did I see something about this on CSI last yr or the yr before?  I had no clue what a "Furry" is either. Glad you explained it.


To everyone : 

I asked my wife how she would feel if she had a CD male come into the womens bathroom and she stated that she would be very upset and feel violated. I then asked her how she would feel if a women in transition came in, and she said that she would be fine with that, and not think a thing of it. Then she also admits she does not know how she would actually know the difference, so I told her to just assume for the sake of the topic, that she did have the knowledge of CD verses TS. Obviously in real life she would not really know for sure most likely.

I think her feelings that differ between the two situations says a lot. She also asked that if I put this in here  I make clear that she does not intend to make anyone feel offended at all, just wanted to share her view of things.

As for me I have to say that I would not be cool with a CD man in a womans restroom, restrooms are not for me seperated by what you are wearing, if your a man wearing a dress or not, I don't want a man in the ladies room with my daughter, wife,  mother etc. Not cool at all to me. Of course in reality I would not know if they are CD or TS, but the CD guy knows he is a guy and should give this respect to the women and stay out of their space.  I also do not mean to offend, so please just take what I am saying as my own personal view for the sake of this conversation.

Peace,

Taylor

Taylor - Yes, there was a CSI episode about this, and it's interesting to note that a fur was on the production team of that particular episode - he spoke out about the stereotyping and how furs weren't like that, and was promptly canned.

Furs ARE NOT like what's on that episode. It's notorious in the furry community as both a jest, and a horror-fest.

Quote from: TaylorAs for me I have to say that I would not be cool with a CD man in a womans restroom, restrooms are not for me seperated by what you are wearing, if your a man wearing a dress or not, I don't want a man in the ladies room with my daughter, wife,  mother etc. Not cool at all to me. Of course in reality I would not know if they are CD or TS, but the CD guy knows he is a guy and should give this respect to the women and stay out of their space.

So where should a cross dressed person go to the bathroom?  At home, where they belong?

I'm sorry but your opinion, if carried to its logical conclusion, stuffs CD'ers into the closet and I don't feel that should be done.  Should crossed dressed people respect the conventions and customs of the space they're in?  Of course!  And if they don't then they deserve whatever sanctions are appropriate but if they do, then they aren't any threat to anyone and should have the right to pee in peace.

helen

Quote from: HelenW on September 26, 2006, 08:02:40 PM

Quote from: TaylorAs for me I have to say that I would not be cool with a CD man in a womans restroom, restrooms are not for me seperated by what you are wearing, if your a man wearing a dress or not, I don't want a man in the ladies room with my daughter, wife,  mother etc. Not cool at all to me. Of course in reality I would not know if they are CD or TS, but the CD guy knows he is a guy and should give this respect to the women and stay out of their space.

So where should a cross dressed person go to the bathroom?  At home, where they belong?

I'm sorry but your opinion, if carried to its logical conclusion, stuffs CD'ers into the closet and I don't feel that should be done.  Should crossed dressed people respect the conventions and customs of the space they're in?  Of course!  And if they don't then they deserve whatever sanctions are appropriate but if they do, then they aren't any threat to anyone and should have the right to pee in peace.

helen

This opens a whole can of worms over who should be allowed to use which washrooms.  In the perfect world I guess it wouldn't matter if everyone used the same washroom... guys, girls, women, men, teens, tweens, children, seniors... what difference does it make as the only reason that person is in the washroom is to pass waste products from their body, may be adjust some clothing, personal grooming needs, maybe it's that time of the month, etc. etc.

BUT this is not a perfect world, and I'm only speaking from my own perspective.  If you are a male then you should be using male facilities.  If you are female then you should be using female facilities.  Now I don't wish to seem callous or unfeeling towards CD's, and to be fair to Taylor Helen, Taylor didn't say "At home, where they belong?", nor did he infer that, but I have to agree with him in that a male CD should not be using designated female washrooms.  Personally I would feel very uncomfortable knowing there was a male the same facilities as women.  While the male may be perfectly innocent in what they are doing I can imagine the uproar of that person being discovered cross-dressed in that same washroom as little girls.  Not a good scene.

Just my thoughts.

Steph

QuotePersonally I would feel very uncomfortable knowing there was a male the same facilities as women.  While the male may be perfectly innocent in what they are doing I can imagine the uproar of that person being discovered cross-dressed in that same washroom as little girls.

But how do you define a "male?"  There's the rub!  We've all seen enough discussion on that point to know that it's nigh impossible.

I submit that as long as the person is behaving in a socially acceptable manner how would you know if he or she were an early transition transsexual or "just" a cross dresser?  It's the behaviour that defines things.  If the person cross dresses just to peek between the cracks in the doors then he will soon be found out and he will rightly be sanctioned in some way, hopefully arrested.  Such persons should be very painfully discouraged from repeating that sort of behaviour.

Quoteand to be fair to Taylor Helen, Taylor didn't say "At home, where they belong?"

And no, of course Taylor did not say that, it was just what I suggest is the logical conclusion to his opinion.  I say that because we all know what the probable result of a cross dressed male in a public men's restroom would be.  If public female and male restrooms are out of the question then the home or against a tree somewhere in the public's eye are the only other options, I would think.  Urinating, or worse, defecating in places where you can be discovered will get you arrested as well as outed and posibly beaten.  That leaves staying or going home to go to the bathroom as the only other option.

Meine zwei pfennig,
helen

Quote from: HelenW on September 26, 2006, 09:51:44 PM
I submit that as long as the person is behaving in a socially acceptable manner how would you know if he or she were an early transition transsexual or "just" a cross dresser?  It's the behaviour that defines things.  If the person cross dresses just to peek between the cracks in the doors then he will soon be found out and he will rightly be sanctioned in some way, hopefully arrested.  Such persons should be very painfully discouraged from repeating that sort of behaviour.

Hense the "can of worms" :)

Steph

                       The problem is, a crossdresser will be defined as anyone who does not pass well. That will be the criteria and people will see eyes peering out of the stall even if they are not.




beth

Helen,

Don't you think instead of women having to accept a male in their bathroom, that there should be serious consequencies for any male that would bash another male in the mens room?  Why not fight for the right to urinate in whatever clothes a man wants to wear without being at risk of violence?  To me that is the logical conclusion.  Instead of crossing the rights of women,, how about enforcing the rights of CD's? No it might not be easy, but easy is not alway, well heck, often not, the right route to go. ( my opinion anyway)

Now as for how you define the male... a cross dresser is telling you that they are male,  and if they are not claiming to be female, then what are they doing claiming female space??? It is not about the actual methods of determination that are a point here, the case and point here is that the "male" identity is both already established and not challenged by the individual or the law, or others.

Well just my thoughts here... absolutely believe that all people have rights to public restrooms!

Peace,
Taylor

There's too many gray areas in the definition of woman or man. Many folks who live as one gender haven't opted for full surgical change to the other, etc. Who is going to decide who can go in which restroom? Rather than enforcing who is allowed in each, I'd advocate there being a third restroom available for anyone who identified as neither, or who didn't feel safe using the one that others might categorize them as fitting into.

zythyra

I think it's a very good idea to fight for tolerance in bothe sex's bathrooms but the reality is such that the liklihood of violence is, I would think, greater in a men's toilet.

Quote from: TaylorNow as for how you define the male... a cross dresser is telling you that they are male,  and if they are not claiming to be female, then what are they doing claiming female space???

A crossdresser is by self-definition male but from what I understand of the phenomenon, when they are out en femme they are expressing their femininity and as such are "being" female albeit for only a short time.  So I suppose they wish to claim the space on the basis of their presentation on a part time basis.  I still don't see a problem with that unless they ignorantly or wilfully transgress the gender role and out themselves, like peeing standing up.

Quote from: zythyra on September 28, 2006, 12:17:26 PM
There's too many gray areas in the definition of woman or man. Many folks who live as one gender haven't opted for full surgical change to the other, etc. Who is going to decide who can go in which restroom? Rather than enforcing who is allowed in each, I'd advocate there being a third restroom available for anyone who identified as neither, or who didn't feel safe using the one that others might categorize them as fitting into.

zythyra

This seems to be the most viable solution, albeit still a rare one.  But it's becoming more and more common.  The Thruway rest stop between my town and where my support group meets has one and it's very nice, both when I go en femme and when my spouse needs to use it because I can assist her even if I'm en homme.


Posted on: September 28, 2006, 06:30:15 PM

---

The Transgender Law Center website has an informative document (large .pdf file, be forewarned) that covers the restroom issue for transgendered people.  I recommend it to all who are concerned.

www.transgenderlawcenter.org/pdf/pipguide.pdf

That is so disgustingly horrable!! >:(

First, I would have ran after the two women and would have at least attempted to comfort them.
The server would have then recieved a violent verbal assult.
Is this Dayton as in Ohio??? This sort of thing can and does happen everywhere in the U.S. but Ohio is the most intolerhant anti-trans states in the union.
This incident does nothing for Ohio's reputation or lack there of.
This sort of thing just makes my blood boil and makes me want to vomit!!! >:(

Julie

There was a post in Susans some while ago about a "cross dresser"  going into a womans restroom - wearing a dress maybe, but apparently talking as a man, standing up to pee and attempting to engage women there in conversation.
Now, that would be totally unacceptable and if my wife or daughter had to put up with that I would take extreme objection.
Yet, it all comes down to presentation - if you present as a woman, sounding & acting, keeping to yourself - who could possible take exception.  There are men cross dressers or TS  that dont look all that convincing,  but sadly there are genuine women who don't also.
I find myself observing women much more closely these days - always at the back of my mind, "would I be able to?  could I?? "

Rana

Hey, Columbus OH isn't a *horrible* place to be trans.  I have said before and still do think it'd be safer and more comfortable to transition in my home state of Minnesota, but I have an openly lesbian couple, an androgyne, and a transitioning MTF girl my age for neighbors and I live in an average kind of suburb, nowhere near campus or the gay district.  Nobody has bothered them.  The lady who runs my support group and will probably be my therapist has been working with TGs since the 70s.  And Ohio State tries to be a very liberal campus - not all the students are, but the administration and staff are fully supportive.

I have two thoughts what if the rest rooms were unisex, and only one person at a time could use them, i've been in places where you yes have to wait but when its your turn you turn the occupied sign, lock the door do your business in privacy and leave.. But alas this is in a perspective, there are to many arguments stadiums, large places, etc.. I know wishful thinking!
Secondly i have yet to be in a position where someone or couples or groups have been outted or made fun of or abused in public, but i assure you kind folks of this, as non transitioning i go out male i am not large but fit for my size and did have 8 years military trianing, having said that i do not especially like violence so i am not advocating i would be physically violent but i would certainly intervene or let my opinion be known or leave or something to offset if like in this case a waitress was rude to two women who were potentially mtf in public dressed!  i do not like restaurants for other reasons too many unknowns that occur in the back of the house - poor handwashing or no handwashing, foods not stroed or cooked right, spoiled foods being used or cooked?  I know i am paranoid!
R

agh..ohio..

What is it with FTMs in Ohio?  There's been at least 3 of them here on Susans.  Seem to be a concentration there.

Melissa

Yup =D Its the water *rolls eyes* Funny if there's so many of us in Ohio why don't I know any?
And I forgot, Ohio State is listed as trans friendly.

Goes to show you how ignorant some people are. Outing someone is one thing, humiliating them is another.

Gennee 

:embarrassed:

Quote from: zombiesarepeaceful on March 16, 2007, 02:32:00 PM
Yup =D Its the water *rolls eyes* Funny if there's so many of us in Ohio why don't I know any?
And I forgot, Ohio State is listed as trans friendly.

Well, there's you, Nero and Mikko used to live there until he moved recently.  There might be more on here, but considering how few of FTMs we seem to have around compared to MTFs, that's quite a lot for 1 state to be visiting here.

Melissa

Why can't we live in a civilized society?  Arguing about restrooms? Geez!!!

GLB people have been dealing with this for years. Butch women get harrassed for using the woman's rest room, and Gays get bashed in the men's for looking/acting too femme. It still goes on. Bottom line for is, that if someone is not misbehaving, or bothering you or someone else, than who the hell cares?

My biggest concern is that when I go into a stall, that the seat is not soaking wet. And yes, some women get the seat wet too, and don't clean up after themselves, the pigs.

My own personal feeling, is that if someone walks into the restroom while I am in there, and does not bother me, than I don't care. In the past, I have run across dudes that were transitioning, and still afraid of using the men's room. So, whereas I might have said something in the past, now I realize that maybe this guy needs a break. Same would hold true for anyone else -- CD, TS, T, whatever. If you behave yourself, I could care less where you pee, as long as you are clean.

I drive for a living. I have to use public restrooms all day. When I am at work, I wear a sweatshirt for warmth, jeans, a jacket, and boots. So do 99% of all other drivers regardless of gender or sex. Every so often, I get a double-take thrown my way when another woman walks into the restroom with me. I just smile, and say something polite. I don't take their reaction personally, because it is not their fault. It is the fault of this society, that brain-washes people into believing that women and men should dress differently, behave differently, and work different jobs.

As an uneducated worker, I make way more $$$ driving than I would doing "women's work."
Besides, I don't like the idear of sitting in an office all day. I did that for 15 years, and I hated it, and I made no $$$. So, when I am working, I wear comfortable, loose, durable clothing, and I do not look cute. I am working, and it is not my objective to look cute. My onjective is to get the work done. So, sometimes it confuses other women when I use the restroom. Not my problem.

To Taylor: I understand your concern for women's space, and I applaud your for your interest, but....I long for the day when we break down those barriers, and judge people based on who they are, not how they look -- how they behave, not whether they are conforming to some set of rules or regulations.

My worry about some guy that wanted to rape, attack or peep me would not be directed toward some guy in a dress -- that guy is probably more terrified of me, than I him. No, as a woman that has been assaulted, I worry about the guy that I do NOT see coming at me. The  "normal-looking" guys that you ignore until it is too late.

That's it I'm moving to ohio where the 3% is living!
hehe... :-*
Ricki

there was a few times that a ts customer came into my resturaunt, and everyone was asking questions galore....of me...not because they know, but that they know i am a supository of random information.  i let them know what i knew of it and they were surprisingly tolerant for a state known for close mindedness and religeos conservativeness

Quote from: Tink on July 16, 2006, 02:58:03 AM

Quote from: cindianna_jones on July 16, 2006, 02:28:32 AM
I got run out of a restroom once. It was extremely embarassing.  The security guy came in the restroom. That in itself was bad enough. It was one of the worst nights of my life.  I was so ashamed.

It is not fun.

Cindi

What???  I'm assuming this was a long time ago (as in years...), please say it was....because I'm already having a cow about Shannon's story... seriously...I'm so ready to fly to Ohio and slap that waitresse's face that you have no idea... >:(



tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Through all this, keep in mind that in 99% of all jurisdictions in the US, there is no law regarding who may or may not use a specific restroom. The most anyone can legally do is ask you to leave and have you charged with trespassing if you refuse.

Quote from: Rachel on March 20, 2007, 12:29:18 AMi am a supository of random information

Now that's a rather frightening image...  :o

I know im a little late in this topic but....

When I was out at JCPennys with a friend of mine saturday doing christmas shopping, I had to use the washroom and the ladies room had and line going out the door. Having to go really bad I walked into the mens room, did my business, and left. Of course I got a lot of funny looks, some looking at me like they dont even know why I was there.

One more incident is when I was at a banquet for a friend thats gonna be graduating college tomorrow. I happened to need to use the bathroom really bad since the food was way too fancy for my liking. I walked towards the bathrooms and immediatly the man behind the counter cut me off and pointed to the women's bathroom. I just gave him a look and went into it. Of course at the time I was wearing my red chinese dress with stockings on, making me look real feminine (and very cold for this time of year). So I didnt argue with it. Noone knew except for the teachers (who was alerted way before hand that I was coming) and my friend.

I think if your given the choice and noone suspects anything, yeah use the bathroom you want.

QuoteTruck Inn" truckstop and casino in Fernley, Nevada.

I lived in Fernley during the 90's, owned a home there and worked on new housing construction, there and fallon.  I was into full time since 1998 and never had a problem there, and I frequented the truckstop, one of the few commercial places there.  I never had a problem there or anywhere in town.  Many people wouldn't have a clue, but as I had been there for years there were plenty that knew who I was.  Not a word said anywhere that got back to me.  Nobody even blasted me about my overlyloud sterio in my Vette touring around at night. 

Well, strange world at times ...
Terri

I have been out to eat hundreds of times and never, ever encountered any rudeness or been treated badly.  I am so sorry that you had to observe such unacceptable behavior. 

-sigh- makes me so frightened sometimes.

Oh, well we have one of those M and E resurants here where I live. I went there and it totally sucked. The service was slow and the meal was just lame. I'll be happy to see them tank. Especially now!

When totally femme, I have never had any problems using the Ladies room.

I have been in a restaurant, of a well known chain, and needed to use the facilities.
Asked the waitress where the rest rooms where, and she guided me to them, and more appropriately to the ladies Room.

I am fortunate though, that I have been told by more than one  woman, that unless i had told them myself that I was TS, that they would have taken me as totally female, and would have not believed any one else that I was other than female

Denise

Max & Ermas completely suck as a restaurant chain.  I've been to two of them.  One of them on Richmond Road (in Lexington) back in the 80's.  And the new one in Hamburg (in Lexington, KY also) about a year or so ago.  The one in Hamburg was terrible.  Bad food, bad customer service.  Boring environment.  Nothing like what it used to be in the 80's.  I hope they do tank.

I would have told that waitress to screw off. Seriously. I have a big mouth, and it gets me in a lot of trouble. But I would not have sat and watched that, man. I would have seriously freaked, to be honest with you. Like, throwing over tables kind of freaked. LOL! Too bad I'm 18 now. If I was still 17...