Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Ok, so all of us have heard this line before, "What you are doing is against God's plans for you." I got tired of getting mad at this so I sat down and honestly thought out what people are saying. I personally believe that the nation is comprised of 50% idiots and 50% fools, but that dosn't mean they don't get it right every now and again.

So after some thought I came up with my own reasoning, we are MEANT to do this. Now some might say 'duh!' to this but hear me out. When a child is born with anything that remotly is recognized as a disorder, they get sympathy and care. A child born with any metal imparment gets the same deal, but what does a trans child get but scorn and hate? Now it is recognized that we are born this way, and it is also recognized that trans is not in the bible. So if you go by what religious people have said for centuaries that if a child is born ddifferent, that this is God's will, where does that leave the trans child?

I beleive that we are born trans so that we can further human compassion and understanding. So that we might better understand this complex and intricate beauty called the universe. People look at God and forget what it is they are trying to define. God is God, and if we are created in his image, well, as crafty as humans can be, God has had millenia more practice at it. Afterall, if God created the universe, who are we to say he dosn't have the house advantage? God could and probably does have plans that strech centuries and millenia, with such subtle clues that only in hindsight can we start to see the plan.

A case in point is the way my mother and brother are still alive in again. Here is my roadmap...

Joined Navy->Got help on being trans-> Discharge-> came to chicago and found apartment-> had mother helping me move, who had brought little brother with-> at the same time, other family car wreacked at salt lake, with only my sister and father in it.

Had I not gone though with my discharge, my brother and mother would have been in that car, the chain of events leading to that car trip probably were not affected by me. But it was my life that affected my mother and brother enough to keep them in a car crash that reportably had paramedics expecting to find bodies, not minor injuries.

So tell me what you all think, how do you think being trans does or does not fit into the grand scheme? ;)

Luana,

I firmly believe that we are a part of the Almighty's plan.  I don't know what my role is as I go forward.  It would be nice to know, but I don't worry about it.  All I know is that I am going to do my best at being what  I was created to be.

Chaunte

My transsexuality *is* my religion. The pull of the constant, life-long contradiction between my physical reality and spiritual "knowing" opened a window, a crack in this consensual so-called reality, revealing some of the most wonderous secrets and mysteries this world has to offer.

I don't look at it as "God's plan;" instead, I see it as my own creative way of never (entirely) forgetting who and what I truly am. A persistent, inescapable inconguity, much like tying a string around one's finger... or perhaps leaving a trail of bread crumbs to follow through the chapters of our own personal myth.

Quote from: Luana on July 14, 2006, 10:52:01 PM
Ok, so all of us have heard this line before, "What you are doing is against God's plans for you."

My reaction to this is "Who are you to say what God's plans are for me?"  Some of these religious people think they have it all figured out and know better than God Himself.  It just so hypocritical and counterintuitive that these people go against some parts of their religion to make other feel bad about supposedly doing something that goes against their religion.  :icon_dizzy:

Melissa

QuoteI beleive that we are born trans so that we can further human compassion

I read that as pity, which I don't want, need, or tolerate; In all seriousness, I'd rather die.  Maybe that's prideful, and I'll burn forever for it.  That's probably a big reason that I don't transition, I don't think I can handle it.  Anyway, as it is, according to them I am going to burn regardless and if I am going to burn, I may as well burn for something that's more understood.

I'm starting to genuinely feel that my sanity is slipping away.

Do I seem incoherant?

Jessica

Luana, I must agree with you on this subject. I think that I was born trans because it would help me gain a greater understanding of people, and others might gain a greater understanding by having known me. I have gone through a great deal of troubles in my life, none warranted, all which have helped strengthen me as an individual. At this point, I don't look at my being TS as a curse; rather, I think of it as yet another hardship I must overcome.

Who would want to go through all this pain, some people might ask? I don't want to. I didn't ask to be TS, nor did I ask for all the other pain I've been through. But I've made it through 24 years with little more than a few battle scars, and at this point, I feel nearly invincible. Most people never have that feeling, and I feel priviledged.

Rafe

I don't try and guess why.  I just accept it.

Melissa

QuoteI believe that we are born trans, so that we can further human compassion

QuoteI read that as pity, which I don't want, need, or tolerate

An amen to the latter. I certainly require no pity, nor am I a part of some broad scheme to better humanity. Nor am I a "mistake of nature".

I'm here for one reason:
God was feeling artistic the day he made me.
He turned to his people (both angels and demons), and proclaimed with great emotion, "It is the 20th century - everything's been done. But I must create something the world has never seen!"
He tossed aside the traditional molds, and labored night and day over his masterpiece.
And when it was finished, he declared, "It is good."

Nero

Quote from: tinkerbell on July 14, 2006, 11:50:57 PM
Hi Luana:

I used to think that God had made a big mistake when he brought me into this world, Why on earth would he make an abnormal person to be part of his creation, right?? 

In every perfect equation..(such as life) there are always Anomalies to make that equation perfect.
I like Luana believe exactly what she typed...
I believe GOD gives a you a life and says to himself "now lets see what they do with it!"
And when that day comes (death), I should stand before him and he'll say "So what did you accomplish with this beautiful gift called LIFE that I had given you?"
My response will be a smirk and a smile and ill simply say "everything you laid before me!"

May not get a gyrl into heaven but it will definitly put a smile if not a chuckle on gods face!

Chynna

I like your theory Nero.

Melissa

Nice one, Nero. I definitely consider myself special.

Rafe

Chynna, you are so cool :)  you make perfect sense.
Melissa, yes Acceptance :)

It would be sheer arrogance and foolishness to talk about God's plan, we could not even begin to comprehend it.  Who would be game to second guess God.

As Chynna says, you do what you do (I think you said that, thou more eloquently put :)   luvs ya hun :)

Rana

Quote from: Rana on July 18, 2006, 07:38:28 AM
It would be sheer arrogance and foolishness to talk about God's plan, we could not even begin to comprehend it.  Who would be game to second guess God.

<raises hand>

"The eye with which I see God is the eye with which God sees me" - Meister Eckhart

 "and it is also recognized that trans is not in the bible."
it is mentioned in Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this. (Deut. 22:5)

Quote from: jaded on July 18, 2006, 08:53:47 AM
"and it is also recognized that trans is not in the bible."
it is mentioned in Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this. (Deut. 22:5)

...and I'm a woman, therefore I must wear women's clothing. The bible says so. :)

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on July 18, 2006, 10:49:19 AM
...and I'm a woman, therefore I must wear women's clothing. The bible says so. :)

Melissa

Yes, I like that answer too.

Nero

Yes, it's a good simple answer, but then if you answer like that, the very religious people will get down to semantics of trying to define you by your genitals.  Then you can reply that it doesn't say anywhere in the bible what makes a man and what makes a woman.

Melissa

Quote from: jaded on July 18, 2006, 08:53:47 AM
"and it is also recognized that trans is not in the bible."
it is mentioned in Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this. (Deut. 22:5)

MMMM....I read it still don't see a reference to Trans or ->-bleeped-<- or transsexual!

Also Who defines what a male piece of clothing is and a female piece of clothing is???
GOD...
Oh yeah thats right God didn't make clothing man did after he (Adam & Eve) ate from the tree and realized they were naked...I didn't see the chapter were god made adam and then made a mate for adam and then made a skirt and some jeans!!!?????
The book of Deut. is entirely in contridiction to the first two books of the old test,

FOR WE ARE ALL NAKED IN THE EYES OF OUR LORD.

For If I go to church in a skirt or a pair of pants GOD just see
CHYNNA
Sitting in the pue's

Doesn't matter how I dress Im naked in his eyes.

Chynna White

That's a good one Chynna.  It would probably work.

Melissa

Wow, Jaded, you got me on that one. Some Bible scholar I am. Now I remember that one... but my theories about religion and God and whatnot are not based solely on the Bible, because 1) it was written by humans, and while it might have been inspired by God, humans are fallible and thus may have made some (to many) mistakes; 2) it has been translated numerous times throughout the ages; for example, the famous King James version was changed to make certain passages less condemning to homosexuals, because King James himself was reputedly gay; 3) and thank you, Chynna; I always wondered how clothing can be deemed masculine or feminine. That, as well, may have been an addition by some conservative something-or-others who felt like imposing their own mores on the masses back in times BC, and knew the Bible was the easiest way to do that. Just think, though; the original state of man (meaning humanity) was naked, in the Garden of Eden. Even after the Fall, I doubt they designated specific fig leaves as "men's" and others as "women's."  8)

And yes, Melissa, awesome point... I am male, therefore I wear men's clothing. It's all in the semantics.

Rafe

wow you all have really good replies mellisa thank god you didnt leave and chynna  "u da bomb" lol
as for my friend rafe this is from the old testament so it didn't go through all the "refurbishing"
and i went to an all "girls"(i know your thinking you lucky bas cough hm son of a gun) bible school forever so.........

There is another board in Spirituality in which Chaunte revealed some info from a rabbi on the background of that verse in Deuteronomy... I think it's very valuable info.

And yeah, Jaded, you are a lucky something-or-other... SO jealous...

Rafe

eer Rafe,
The King James version of the Bible, it wasn't written by him you know, nor did he get it written to make homosexuality more acceptable. He commissioned the most eminent scholars of the time to try to get a definitive and accurate version drawing on Greek Latin Jewish texts - there was starting to appear at that time many "versions" of the bible, thanks to the printing press & evangelical sects.

Poor old King James, he gets such a rotten press - whatever he may have been, I don't think "gay" came into the picture.

Rana

I know i mentioned this in anoter thread but I'll say it here too. My wife and I feel my Tsism is part of God's plan for us. We feel I was meant to be created female but because of rejection by religion and most of society if both I and the one He destined to be my soul mate (my wife) were both female in a same sex relationship He decided one of us had to wear a male body, which I guess I got the short straw!!lol. This allowed us to venture in society and be accepted. I hope I explained it right this time!
(ps: if anyone wants to get technical, God never said He was perfect,nor did Jesus. We humans labelled Him as perfect and feel this mistake thing blasphemus. Now I'll get thumped for sure!!lol)

Quote from: cindianna_jones on July 19, 2006, 08:01:23 AM
IAnd on the fourth day, yes after
the grass grew,
God decided to create the sun and the stars.

WHHHHWAAAAATTT?

Yes, God created the stars and the sun
on the fourth day.
Three days after creating mother earth
and one day after the plants.

Did God ignore his own physics?
Didn't he know that solid matter can
only come from a dying star?
A supernova where gasses are
fused to heavy elements?

Didn't he remember that grasses
require photosynthesis?
Or did he break his own laws?

mmmm....Well afterall he\she is GOD...Maybe GOD made physics later on like on the 9 month of creation??!!!!LOL

The bible is an interpretation of history before history began...it is human beings need to try and understand and catagorize (label) everything in the universe....
I believe that the universe was created (like science states) over a course of billions of years but if one can conceive a supreme being (like GOD) then one has to conceive that perhaps he did create the universe in 7 days!!!

How?

Well stop for a second and look at time..... linear time from a supreme beings point of view...
If GOD does in fact exist he as been around for the entire length of the universe billions of years
So in GODS preception of time maybe the billions of years it took to form the universe was in fact in his time or view of such a matter of days..........

Or maybe I need to switch to decaf and cut back on my meds!

Chynna

Well, according to the bible, He also made animals (including dinosaurs which were around long before humans) 1 day before humans.  I began question inconsistencies like this in the bible when I was still in my preteens.  Nobody ever had a good answer.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on July 19, 2006, 08:48:02 AM
Well, according to the bible, He also made animals (including dinosaurs which were around long before humans) 1 day before humans. 

Exactly GOD just left that day out!!!
Why bother writing about it! LMAO

Yes, it is full of flaws, yet some people take every sentence literally.  I believe the bible is a tool for teaching and many of the stories are symbolic.

Melissa

I feel that to even attempt to understand God's plan right now is going to fail.

Here's the reason. A good friend of mine at work who I talk with a lot put it like this.

If you ask three blind men to descibe an object (in this case an elephant) that they can touch and feel.

The first grabs the elephant by the tail, and proudly proclaims that this object is kinda like a flexible broom, it has a sorta bushyish tail, it feels leathery, it's like a long feather duster.

The second grabs the elephant by the leg, and says, This thing is like a leather tree!

The third grabs the elephant by the trunk and says, This is a hose... that moves!

None of them have a complete picture of the elephant.

We are all at different phases of our spiritual journey. 

To say that Christianity is 'wrong' is, in my opinion, incorrect. The people who are Christians are Christians because that is where they are in their spiritual journey.  They are right where they are supposed to be.

Likewise, for anyone to say "Joe is wrong for his beliefs" is also incorrect because Joe is right where he needs to be in his spiritual journey.

And, to me, it doesn't matter who is more advanced than who.  To say, 'Oh, well, the Buddhists must be ahead of the Christians because they are so peaceful' is also missunderstanding this concept entirely.

It doesn't matter who is more advanced, or closer to the truth than another.  What matters is YOUR spiritual journey. Not how you compare to another or who is 'older' or 'newer'.

We are all exploring this huge thing called God, and our understanding of this will come with time. With that said, I think I am exploring the tail, and I think, in this life, I got ->-bleeped-<- on.

My favorite quote in the entire bible, "Judge not, lest you be judged"

I think that sums is up very nicely.

Jessica

Quote from: Jessica on July 19, 2006, 11:00:06 AM
I think I am exploring the tail, and I think, in this life, I got ->-bleeped-<- on.

I think that sums is up very nicely.

Jessica

LMAO
AMEN SIS!

Quote from: Melissa on July 19, 2006, 10:43:42 AM
Yes, it is full of flaws, yet some people take every sentence literally.  I believe the bible is a tool for teaching and many of the stories are symbolic.

Melissa

I see sacred scriptures as humanities interaction with the Almighty.  Nowhere has it been shown that all the scriptures are historically accurate.  Some describe history.  Some of the stories are symbolic.  Some are taken from other faiths.  Some are ancient stories preserved from prehistoric times.  ALL of them are told in a way to show the power of the Almighty.

Chaunte

Quote from: Jessica on July 19, 2006, 11:00:06 AM
Likewise, for anyone to say "Joe is wrong for his beliefs" is also incorrect because Joe is right where he needs to be in his spiritual journey.

Say not, 'I have found the truth,' but rather, 'I have found a truth.' ~ Kahlil Gibran

I also believe you are judged by God by what is in your heart, not by how many times you go to church or by how many rules in the bible you break.  That is why I know I will never go to hell (if there even is one).

Melissa

Well heck, even if the bible ends up being more-or-less factually accurate, and God really does pay some attention to The Rules, he obviously pardons certain people for their transgressions or NO ONE is getting into heaven - as we're all sinners to some degree.

Is crossdressing (closest analogy in the bible to TSism) worthy of a hell sentence? I dunno...

But from what I read, the determination of getting into heaven or not is more a matter of faith and belief than a tally of your sins. You can be a kitten-killing pedophile, yet get into heaven if your faith is strong. And yet Ghandi went to hell, as he didn't accept Jesus (as far as I know).

So sin or not, I don't think TSism will bar anyone from heaven. A lack of faith however will (christians fee free to correct me).

Quote from: Kate on July 20, 2006, 11:00:11 AM
But from what I read, the determination of getting into heaven or not is more a matter of faith and belief than a tally of your sins. You can be a kitten-killing pedophile, yet get into heaven if your faith is strong. And yet Ghandi went to hell, as he didn't accept Jesus (as far as I know).

Faith in God, not faith in the religion.  Although Ghandi was Buddhist, he also prayed to the same God that Christians pray to, whether they want to believe that or not.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Later in his life when he was asked whether he was a Hindu, he replied:

"Yes I am. I am also a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Jew."

Although each faith has a different set of protocols, I believe they are all accomplishing the same thing.

Melissa

I leave it up to God a "higher power"
To wether I go to heaven or hell when the time comes...
It's not for me to contemplate right now.

Chynna

I just try and be a good human.  You can't really go wrong with that.  I do it more for my own growth, rather than some external power though.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on July 20, 2006, 10:47:35 AM
I also believe you are judged by God by what is in your heart, not by how many times you go to church or by how many rules in the bible you break.  That is why I know I will never go to hell (if there even is one).

Melissa

I think all of us have been there (hell, I mean)... how worse can it get??


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Touché. :)

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on July 20, 2006, 11:10:42 AM
...  Although Ghandi was Buddhist, he also prayed to the same God that Christians pray to, whether they want to believe that or not...

Melissa

I believe that Ghandi was Hindu and practiced Hinduism all his life.

Steph

Yeah, that's what I meant.  Whoops.  :eusa_shifty:

Melissa

Quote from: tinkerbell on July 20, 2006, 12:29:53 PM
I think all of us have been there (hell, I mean)... how worse can it get??


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

I think heaven and hell are earth-bound concepts. (this is it, the 'hell sentence')
I don't imagine 'God' to be a judge.
Or a dominatrix.
Or a micromanager.

Quote from: jan c on July 20, 2006, 03:18:13 PM
I think heaven and hell are earth-bound concepts. (this is it, the 'hell sentence')
I don't imagine 'God' to be a judge.
Or a dominatrix.
Or a micromanager.

Aha!!! finally another girl...who translates words by their essence  and not by what they mean literally.... ;) ;) ;)


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

True, I don't either.  I used "judge" in the traditional christian sense of God, rather than how I see it.  I believe God creates us, has a purpose for us, and sets us to work to see what we can do with our lives.  As I said, I try to be a good human for my own growth; not because I feel I will be judged.

Melissa

Quote from: cindianna_jones on July 19, 2006, 10:32:38 PM
Melissa, Chaunte,

AMEN.  Now, they can not use it against you.

I'm not so sure about that!  THere is a fundamentalist bloc in my school district.  This has always made teaching evolution a challenge.  I have no doubt that it will make transtioning,,, interesting.

Chaunte

I do love sweeping statements  :D  So most of the Christian right practice homosexuality,  Bush and Blair are as queer as tartan rabbits - their calling each other "honey" gave their shameful secret away then.

I KNOW how you would feel if people make sweeping statements about people like, well us!   Ignorant, Ill Informed, Retarded & the like, right!!

And, who is this YHWH then?  We all know but why do you spell Gods name like this, not showing vowels is a feature of Egyptian, and also the Hebrew written word - we are communicating in English here. (I do know this statement is pompus and irritating, but thats how I considered your post.  Tit for Tat OK  :)

Rana


Posted at: July 23, 2006, 06:47:09 AM

---

You cannot say that  :-  accusing a whole group of the very thing they are supposed to be standing against (if such a position indeed exists).

Myself not being a member of the "religious right" whatever that is, I don't particularly feel the need to defend them as such (they can all be queer, would serve them right) but your statement could be applied to any group and that just strikes me as wrong.

YHWH is how the ancient Israelites wrote God's name, certainly was not how they pronounced it.  And anyway he is not YOUR God, he belongs to me and Osama Bin Ladin & the Pope.   Give him back this instant

Rana

If I may?

Quote...
he is not YOUR God
...

If I read it right, VAL's God is very much her God. NOT the Deity of Christianity, (etc) A separate entity. Er, yes I realize some faiths do not believe such, but that is the gut of the matter, belief. I do not think I know VAL's God, nor do I think I am all that familiar with the GOD of Christianity. However, I have a (small) clue about MY God. ;) Ya see?  Oh sure it might be the same entity, and just as easily it might not.

But this is really a subject for a different thread, so I'll shush...

While there are some things on this thread with which I disagree, I must say that much rang true: most people do not realize that many books of the Bible were written to be used in the context of ancient times. My mother, for instance, holds tight to her belief that women cannot be pastors or preachers, and cannot hold any position of authority in the church, because those things are reserved for men (who, apparently, are far superior). She takes this from passages in Corinthians in which Paul instructs that women not hold positions of authority in the church; however, the context surrounding this instruction was that a group of women had decided to take over the church and preach their own messages as opposed to those of Christianity. We can't take everything as a blanket statement, just because it comes from the Bible; there are many things to be taken into consideration, not the least among these the fact that it is a subjective book, not an objective one, as is the majority of literature, and no one interpretation can necessarily be correct; at least not one that comes from a mere mortal.

Rafe

Aye, I beleive the same holds for homosexuality. If you take into context the events surrounding the passages, wasn't there always an event involving more then one partner? As far as I know having more then one partner is wrong wether or not you are gay or straight.

I have to say that it really would be nice to get a real copy of God's plan.

It would be a lot easier to follow it if we could get it from the author directly.

Too many think that they know it.  And there are too many differences in every version to be "the" plan.

So, until God can send me an authorized copy, I'll just continue to stick to my personal values of love, charity, and compassion.  I'll be thrilled to end up with those who share them for eternity.  And if it be with Lucifer himelf, I'll give up Diet Coke on ice and learn to drink Coffee.

Cindi

I think all of us have been there (hell, I mean)... how worse can it get??


tinkerbell 
=================

oh tink...........
it is of my personal considered opinion....if it matters......
and I am still atheist...BUT
heaven or hell.......
I was in heaven when I was there when my supposed to be daughter was born...holding that new life, counting fingers and toes...and seeing her smile and bubble...and stare at me with those brand new eyes......feeling her little hand squeeze my finger....
==========
I was in hell the night my ole man used the shotgun on himself.
------------

so yes.............

been in both places.

If you know ANYTHING about heuristics and basic human psychology people don't like information that conflicts with their belief system. It's confusing - it upsets them. For the religiously indoctrinated, it makes them angry and self righteous as well.

"God's plan" is just a mental shortcut, a heuristic. People are mental misers - critical thought takes effort. Typically, people will only expend critical thought on subjects they are interested in. Transsexualism is not within the ambit of what Christians care to think about.

Ergo, if someone tells you that you are not following God's plan, understand this is just a thoughtless meaningless defense mechanism. A mental shortcut. In political science we believe that opinions without reason are not important. Feel free to minimize this Dungeons and Dragons nonsense. :)

Quotewoman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this. (Deut. 22:5)

I recently read a rabbi's interpretation of this, sorry I don't have it available to quote exactly. To paraphrase, the original statement in the bible was in reference to cross dressing in order to trick someone into adulterous behaviour or to commit a crime. Therefore, if we're "cross dressed" to express our true gender, no problem.

zythyra

Perhaps TS were put on this earth to out the bigots that use the word of God to discriminate?
Perhaps it is they that will burn in hell not us. That is us that suffer through and fight society just like jesus did marching through those that feard and killed him? Perhaps being TS is our cross to bear and we will go to the holly land?

I think it is all a matter of perspective and how you look at things. Since we are not the ones running around with a 3000+ year old book translated by a men using it to discriminate against others maybe we are right. Maybe we were put here to force those in society to show their true colors that would otherwise be passed by as good people. If the sight of a TS person so enrages a person beyond control so that murder, mockery, or prejudice must rear its ugly head, then I see no place for that person in the heaven that is described in the same book they use to rear that ugly head.

Quote from: zythyra on September 25, 2006, 08:00:27 AM

Quotewoman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this. (Deut. 22:5)

I recently read a rabbi's interpretation of this, sorry I don't have it available to quote exactly. To paraphrase, the original statement in the bible was in reference to cross dressing in order to trick someone into adulterous behaviour or to commit a crime. Therefore, if we're "cross dressed" to express our true gender, no problem.

zythyra

That was always an interesting bible opassage considering the fact that GOD made us all naked in the garden of eden whereas "Mankind" invented clothing after adam and eve ate the forbidden fruit.....
Here's a question......was there a male fig leaf??? and a different fig leaf for Eve...or was there a particular branch she couldn't wear the leaves off??