Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Having just started full time I'm naturally interested in what the requirements are to be considered RLE.  I mean, I have a full time job where I've transitioned, all my friends and family know, and I every day I'm Val, from start to finish.  But the SOC says one of the "abilities reviewed" is "To acquire a (legal) gender-identity-appropriate first name;" 

Does this mean RLE doesn't "start" until my name is changed?  Or do I just have to complete that at some point?

Val

Your therapist defines what the RLE requirements are for her to write letters for you.

My name didn't become legal until six months into the RLE, although I was already using it consistently when I "realized" I was fulltime.

~Kate~

I spoke to a psychiatrist who said I can start RLE now even though my name isn't legally changed. She says I can start when I'm ready...

I'm ready, but I'm going to wait until after I visit my mom. Because then I won't see her again in 3 months.

Quote from: Kate on July 25, 2008, 05:18:02 PM
Your therapist defines what the RLE requirements are for her to write letters for you.

My name didn't become legal until six months into the RLE, although I was already using it consistently when I "realized" I was fulltime.

:D :lol:  My legal name change was 2.5 before I went full-time.  My employer allowed me to continue to present as male (ID and all) until after FFS.  After I returned from surgery I turned in the old name badge I had been using for show and used the new badge that I had been hiding/keeping in a pocket.


What constitutes full-time?  I'm kind of old school and to me it means presenting as your identified gender 24/7/365 NO EXCEPTIONS.  And that requires a legal name change.  However, as Kate said, these things can vary a bit depending on your situation and needs.  I was a very organized planner whereas sometimes being full-time sneaks up on some people.  ::)  :whistles innocently:

Well, IMHO, changing your name to be "legally qualified" to be in the RLT is just plain stupid.  Why? because not all states provide their citizens with whatever protections they need to change their gender markers.  If you are living fulltime (i.e, living, working, studying, whatever)  as your true gender, that should be more than enough to be considered fulltime, no?


tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tink on July 25, 2008, 10:32:36 PM
Well, IMHO, changing your name to be "legally qualified" to be in the RLT is just plain stupid.  Why? because not all states provide their citizens with whatever protections they need to change their gende markers.  If you are living fulltime (i.e, living, working, studying, whatever)  as your true gender, that should be more than enough to be considered fulltime, no?


tink :icon_chick:

Trust me I know, I live in such a state.  However, the fear I had about being outed by my licencse proved unfounded.  In 2 years nobody noticed the M on it.  My point is this:

Isn't the point of being "full-time" to be your true self as much as possible?


To me doing the boy-thing for family and/or not doing a legal name change is a betrayal of self.

Quote from: Beyond on July 25, 2008, 10:21:43 PM
What constitutes full-time?  I'm kind of old school and to me it means presenting as your identified gender 24/7/365 NO EXCEPTIONS.  And that requires a legal name change...

Well... before it was legal, I told *everyone* my name was Kate now, including doctors, dentists, car mechanic, neighbors, family, friends... everyone. Every appointment was made as Kate, my company email said Kate, I made and answered calls as Kate. With people who still needed to know my male name (such as for health insurance), I just explained the situation... and they all "made a note" about it. It may not have been legal, but it was how I identified myself 24/7 in every situation.

On the other hand, I'll admit that making it legal does show a real commitment though. But I intentionally waited until I was passing before I initiated the process, and then it took me a few months to come up with the money for a lawyer (ouch!), then another few months for the court date. But the only real "change" after it became legal was seeing a different name on my Credit Cards and Driver's License ;)

~Kate~

Quote from: KateWell... before it was legal, I told *everyone* my name was Kate now, including doctors, dentists, car mechanic, neighbors, family, friends... everyone. Every appointment was made as Kate, my company email said Kate, I made and answered calls as Kate. With people who still needed to know my male name (such as for health insurance), I just explained the situation... and they all "made a note" about it. It may not have been legal, but it was how I identified myself 24/7 in every situation.

For areas that follow the precedent of English Common Law, what you describe is good enough. I seem to recall a period of five years of "proof" of usage before it actually became effective

In California, prior to 9/11, You could change your name by Common Law. You can still do that but many agencies (SSA, DMV, Birth Certificate, Passport) now require a legal court ordered name change before they will change their paperwork/database. So it really depends on what your surgeon, therapists and the hospital where the surgery is done require. If Common law usage is good enough for them, then it is good enough for you!

I just went thought the legal name change process in California. It was not even mentioned as a requirement as to RLE by any of the three therapists I have seen. I changed my name on my DL first then the legal thing. Some say it will not work but I can tell you that it does and as long as you provide the exact name that is on the SSA record, the CA DMV will change the name and gender marker by form 328 alone. However, if you do not change the gender marker, the DMV requires a court order! Weird.

I changed my name because my ID instantly outed me everywhere I shopped. Even a debit card shows a name to the clerk on their POS screen. I was able to change my Costco card, bank Debit/credit cards and DL without a legal name change.

I went to the SSA last week and gave the clerk my court order. She went through dozens of input screens and I saw the gender marker. I thought, Why not go for it and ask her to change the M to an F. She said, "Oh my, your parents must have made a mistake filling out the original form. I'll change it" She put in an F and hit ENTER. I thought, I had it made but the F was not accepted. More information was needed including a letter from a doctor verifying my gender. I gave her my carry letter hoping that would suffice. She went in the back and talked to a supervisor. She came back and said I now need a SRS completed letter. The interesting thing was that until I took out my carry letter, she did not suspect I was trans. My old male name was not very common and she didn't put two and two together.

I would not say that permanent changes to ID are required for RLE but it is really difficult to get along unless you do. So it was top on my list and I can say the feeling of being Margaret legally is a rush! I LOVE it.

Maggie

er.......from my perspective as a UK citizen, it is relatively simple to start RLT/E so long as you are satisfied that you are ready for it.  I started mine exactly 2 years before I saw a gender specialist psychiatrist and when he interviewed me, he considered my RLT as 'time served'.   

I simply decided it was time to start life fully as a female and took the legal steps to alter my official documents to reflect my aquired gender.  Tax, insurance, banking, utilities etc were all informed at the same time and this made it rather difficult to change my mind so I went at it with vigour.   You see, if your head is right then everything else follows.   It is not easy to start being a woman after 45 yrs as a man/boy but like I said, my head was right, I was ready for it and it has been a wonderful experience that has proven me correct that I was cheated during gestation  :-\

As for it being a requirement to change name before during or after RLT, I suppose it depends on local law, family obligations, employment constraints or a million other things but in my case, it was a clear cut event because everything fell into place for me at the right time in my life and I just went out and got on with it  :)

I'll be applying for my name change sooner than I originally planned, but I won't be able to do the DL/gender marker thing until after I attend a conference in Sept, due to airline tickets and not being able to change the name on the ticket.  So I have to fly as F, but I put my new name on all of my conference docs and hotel room and car rental.  That felt SO GOOD!!

I probably won't be passing much better in 2 months than I do now.

Off to fill out paperwork...

Jay

I know some people around here who've had surgery and haven't changed their legal ID yet for what ever issue.

a question,

are you guys and gals talking about changing gender-markers pre-surgery, how does that work? I'd really like to know because from what I heard there needs to be a court-order, and without a surgeon's letter there is no court order!

???????????

Quote from: Hal on August 08, 2008, 12:24:59 PM
are you guys and gals talking about changing gender-markers pre-surgery, how does that work? I'd really like to know because from what I heard there needs to be a court-order, and without a surgeon's letter there is no court order!

Every agency sets it's own criteria.

I know the SSA wants a surgeon's letter, as does Pennsylvania to change their Driver's License and Birth Certificate.

Some people have encountered naive clerks and managed to get things changed despite the rules and regulations.

IS there such a thing as a "court order" to change sex markers though? For the name change, yes... but do the courts get involved with the sex marker? I thought the only "proof" requested was a surgeon's letter?

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on August 08, 2008, 12:48:21 PM

Quote from: Hal on August 08, 2008, 12:24:59 PM
are you guys and gals talking about changing gender-markers pre-surgery, how does that work? I'd really like to know because from what I heard there needs to be a court-order, and without a surgeon's letter there is no court order!

Every agency sets it's own criteria.

I know the SSA wants a surgeon's letter, as does Pennsylvania to change their Driver's License and Birth Certificate.

Some people have encountered naive clerks and managed to get things changed despite the rules and regulations.

IS there such a thing as a "court order" to change sex markers though? For the name change, yes... but do the courts get involved with the sex marker? I thought the only "proof" requested was a surgeon's letter?

~Kate~

In California there is a specific form to get a court-ordered gender change. This form requires, however, the surgeon's letter before it is granted. I don't know what proof the SSA needs though...just a letter, the court order, or both.

Quote from: Kate on August 08, 2008, 12:48:21 PM

IS there such a thing as a "court order" to change sex markers though? For the name change, yes... but do the courts get involved with the sex marker? I thought the only "proof" requested was a surgeon's letter?

~Kate~

California does - There are three different forms that can be filed. Name, Name and Gender, or Gender only.

Filing a form for a gender change requires an additonal form to be filed with a sworn affadavit from a physician/surgeon.

TransgenderLaw.com has more details.

Quote from: JennMW on August 08, 2008, 01:56:24 PM
Filing a form for a gender change requires an additonal form to be filed with a sworn affadavit from a physician/surgeon.

Right, the surgeon's letter...

But do any courts actually issue a literal "Court Order" stating that one's sex is now male/female? Ya know, in the same way they do for the name change? "I hereby decree that on this day, Kate's sex for all purposes is now female? Signed Judge Person?"

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on August 08, 2008, 02:09:09 PM

Quote from: JennMW on August 08, 2008, 01:56:24 PM
Filing a form for a gender change requires an additonal form to be filed with a sworn affadavit from a physician/surgeon.

Right, the surgeon's letter...

But do any courts actually issue a literal "Court Order" stating that one's sex is now male/female? Ya know, in the same way they do for the name change? "I hereby decree that on this day, Kate's sex for all purposes is now female? Signed Judge Person?"

~Kate~

Yes, California, and it does not have to be from a surgeon, nor is surgery required.

Name and Gender Change: http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/selfhelp/other/namegenderchange1.htm

Gender Change Only: http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/selfhelp/other/namegenderchange4.htm

Lisbeth

Yes, its a written order of the court, filed and all.

Quote from: Ellie's Miss Lisbeff on August 08, 2008, 02:14:57 PM
Yes, California, and it does not have to be from a surgeon, nor is surgery required.

Hmm...on that link Lisbeth it shows as requiring an affidavit from a doctor saying GRS has been completed

Quote4. Have your doctor fill out an affidavit telling the court that you have undergone gender reassignment surgery. Your doctor can use Form NC-210 or write out his/her own declaration.

I thought a doctor had to sign it too, that what the link says also.

Supposedly in Oregon you use the same form that you use for name change, except that you cross out 'name' and add 'gender'.  But you do need a surgeons letter stating that it is irreversible.  I don't know if a letter stating that you had an Orchi would work or not.  When I go in on September 4 for my name change, I am going to take my carry letter and see if the judge is in a good mood or not.  ;D

When I changed my license, I had a letter from my therapist and they changed the name and gender marker.  I am glad I did it when I did, because they changed the law the following week and you now need a birth certificate or other proof you are in America legally.

So I will be me even without SRS.  8)

Janet

Quote from: SarahR on August 08, 2008, 03:40:41 PM

Quote from: Ellie's Miss Lisbeff on August 08, 2008, 02:14:57 PM
Yes, California, and it does not have to be from a surgeon, nor is surgery required.

Hmm...on that link Lisbeth it shows as requiring an affidavit from a doctor saying GRS has been completed

Yes, a doctor, not a surgeon.  The doctor who prescribes your hormones can do it.

Lisbeth

Quote from: Ellie's Miss Lisbeff on August 08, 2008, 07:13:31 PM

Quote from: SarahR on August 08, 2008, 03:40:41 PM

Quote from: Ellie's Miss Lisbeff on August 08, 2008, 02:14:57 PM
Yes, California, and it does not have to be from a surgeon, nor is surgery required.

Hmm...on that link Lisbeth it shows as requiring an affidavit from a doctor saying GRS has been completed

Yes, a doctor, not a surgeon.  The doctor who prescribes your hormones can do it.

Lisbeth

Ah, my mistake. I figured you were just generalizing and saying that you don't need any sort of letter from a medical professional, be it a doctor or surgeon. Good to know. I thought it had to be the actual surgeon who writes the letter.

No, I think it just has to be someone who is licensed to practice medicine in the state of California.