Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Lookist? On the Beauty Myth and Transsexual Women
Posted August 19, 2008

http://radnichole.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/lookist-on-the-beauty-myth-and-transsexual-women/ (http://radnichole.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/lookist-on-the-beauty-myth-and-transsexual-women/)

*sigh* It's a difficult road to walk, this road that starts with the seemingly insane realization in deepest childhood that something about one's body just doesn't make sense. That look-down-and-see-that-you-are-different that begins when you first see someone of the allegedly "opposite" sex has a different shape between her legs than you have.

At first, as I recall, it was a "shrugable," you know, one of those items that you see and then just shrug and go on wondering at the differences. But, as you play doctor more and more times with your friends you begin to see that they are all the same there and you are different. That's when the shrugging ends and the true wonderment sets in. Like, "wtf is going on here?"

It's a great post.  As I posted there, women are taught from day one to judge each other by their looks.  It's unsurprising (but unfortunate) that this patriarchal teaching has manifested in a unique way within transwomen.

Quote from: whatsername on August 19, 2008, 09:16:58 PM
It's a great post.  As I posted there, women are taught from day one to judge each other by their looks.  It's unsurprising (but unfortunate) that this patriarchal teaching has manifested in a unique way within transwomen.

Very high praise. Thank you, whatsername.

It was one of those gotta do it posts. The kind where you write it from the heart and hope it doesn't hurt anyone. *sigh*

We have all sorts of privilege, yep even women with a transsexual history.

BTW, it was just icing to have a woman such as yourself comment. Thanks so very much.

Nichole

Awww Nichole, flattery will get you everywhere!

:P

But seriously, I can only guess that was a difficult post to write.  Talking about things we do that we aren't exactly proud of are the hardest things to broadcast.

Somehow I found the essay condescending, bordering on transphobia, not with themselves but toward others. I've heard her same argument before, those who naturally pass or pass enough to get through life seem to have empathy and concern for the non-passer, even the marginal ones, but they won't socialize with them, and certainly not join them or become friends with them. They're afraid of being identified as one of them, and passing has giving them the privilege to say, "that's not me" and walk away, letting the other suffer with their bad luck in genetics and life.

It's human nature to do this, we all do it to or with some people or groups. But I find it within the transcommunity the reason it's not as united as it could or should be. That's the reality of the community, and they wonder why some groups don't like other groups? And they wonder why those who don't pass well enough are sensitive not just about the rest of society but also their sisters who are supposed to be there for them?

It's the old adage, "Don't mistake discussion for answers." Just because those who pass talk about the issue doesn't change the reality they don't practice what they preach. If they did, then the community wouldn't be as divisive and divided. Maybe they should practice the adage, "There but for the grace of God go I." How do they think the non-passer feel when they see the others knowing they're not really welcome in the others' world?

it's not that different than people with prejudice against larger people, physically or mentally disable people, homeless people and transient, and people in some professions. Transpeople who don't pass well enough are that different, except the prejudice is from and within their own community.

I notice the individual doesn't identify yourself? Why is that? She can't stand up for her own words? Makes me wonder if there is any truth to her words, or just wishful thinking? Doubtful, but it's always interesting to see transwomen who pass refuse to step into the public light for fear of being labelled and identified as one of "those" people, and grouped with those they dislike.

Just my thoughts on the post, and I hope I misread it or misunderstood her words. I just don't see it.

Her name is right there. Please look again.

Umm, thanks there Susan, my blog has gotten 20 new hits since you posted this little gem.

There's a pic attached to the blog and until about two weeks ago there was one attached to my name here as well.

Of course I haven't noticed that sort of transparency from you as yet? 

I do have one serious question for you about your post up there:

Quote from: SusanK on August 20, 2008, 09:11:09 PM
Somehow I found the essay condescending, bordering on transphobia, not with themselves but toward others. I've heard her same argument before, those who naturally pass or pass enough to get through life seem to have empathy and concern for the non-passer, even the marginal ones, but they won't socialize with them, and certainly not join them or become friends with them. They're afraid of being identified as one of them, and passing has giving them the privilege to say, "that's not me" and walk away, letting the other suffer with their bad luck in genetics and life.

It's human nature to do this, we all do it to or with some people or groups. But I find it within the transcommunity the reason it's not as united as it could or should be. That's the reality of the community, and they wonder why some groups don't like other groups? And they wonder why those who don't pass well enough are sensitive not just about the rest of society but also their sisters who are supposed to be there for them?

It's the old adage, "Don't mistake discussion for answers." Just because those who pass talk about the issue doesn't change the reality they don't practice what they preach. If they did, then the community wouldn't be as divisive and divided. Maybe they should practice the adage, "There but for the grace of God go I." How do they think the non-passer feel when they see the others knowing they're not really welcome in the others' world?

Could you please tell me, exactly how miserable I would have to be for your lot to improve? If you can just give me a round figure of what it would take, maybe I could help you out.

And yeah, I'd like to see that answer in a public post.

Nichole

Posted on: August 20, 2008, 10:57:28 PM

---

O, and now that I posted that, thank you both Tasha and Stealth. I appreciate the support. I hadn't seen those when I began my own reply.

Hugs to you both,

Nichole

I liked it Nichole.  If I was not in between calls at shows this week I'd write more, but I'm due back to Melissia Etheridge within the hour, due down in the City at 8, did two back to back 12 hour days following a 16 hour day, with only one day off, but the nap this afternoon was swell.

Nah, I think its pretty much spot on.

You are identified here but not on the blog which the post refered to here. And doing some homework (or really google), it wasn't hard to find how who you are and connect the dots. But why does a therapist admit she doesn't like "men in dresses" to describe non-passing transwomen?

I keep hearing the same tone and tune from people in the community and occasionally from therapist (one I know admited she hates talking with "them" because they know the pain these women will face), and it was the same in your words.

As to "Could you please tell me, exactly how miserable I would have to be for your lot to improve? If you can just give me a round figure of what it would take, maybe I could help you out.", how about not being critical? A round figure? How about everytime you met someone?

I've always followed the policy to find a way to be positive, and if I can't then don't say anything. It's not hard. Has it occurred to you that when people know you don't like or want socialize with them, they may feel the same way about you? Who wants to be with someone they know thinks they're better because of their lot in life made them passable?

It's the unspoken, "I'm passable and you're not." Ok, statement of the obvious, but it's not an excuse or a reason to express personal prejudice. In end I'm not disagreeing with your essay, I just don't think it's helpful to express what's already known and said. Maybe you should address the issue with yourself than expressing it out loud in a public forum?

Don't misunderstand me either, I read it from a different perspective than others did, and no one's view of it is better or worse, just different and our own opinion. And just maybe not everyone agrees with the words. Like you said, you like flying, but then everyone flies at different altitudes and looking down isn't always appreciated.

And we should forgive your shallowness? Why? Because we have and understand compassion and you seem to have a problem with it? People look up to those flying with admiration to be there, only to find they really don't want you with them there.

How do you think all the genetic woman who have appearance problems feel when they see and hear comments from other women? So what's the difference in the transcommunity? Because we can call non-passable women "men in dresses"? That makes it acceptable? Because it separates you from them? It's still discrimination, just a different flavor.

Isn't it the same argument the feminist have said about all transwomen? So your view is any different, except it's calling another class of transwomen different than you?

Anyway, it just seemed to me a private thought expressed out loud and maybe should have been kept to yourself or at least phrased differently. And remember what I say is in the spirit of discussion, and always with a smile. If you can't hear let alone accept criticism, then don't say it. You put on the table, so you should hear all sides, whether you like it or not.

Good grief. That name there, right under the title of the piece, and right after the date of the post? That's her name. Don't make me get out the hand puppets.

"I've always followed the policy to find a way to be positive, and if I can't then don't say anything. It's not hard." Thank you for pointing this out. Otherwise, I might have gotten an opposite impression.

Thank you also for pointing out that the reactions under discussion are not perfect, saintly reactions. I believe that was the point. Please read it again until you fully understand it, or ask someone you trust to explain it to you.

Stealth

I was very fortunate with hormones. If I had never gone into sports (at the urging of my parents) I could have merged and disappeared within society rather easily. Heck, while growing up many thought I was a girl anyway.

And for some time after transition, I did not have enough self esteem to be seen with others who were not so fortunate. Other friends (T and not) said that I had no reason to stick with the Trans community because I could go stealth and that was the preferred way to live. I bought it for awhile. But then something curious happened. I stopped caring about what others thought about me. Not everyone of course, I have SOs and dear friends who I do rely on for feedback but for the general public, why should I care?

I also remember how I was treated by some when I was in-between. I did genderqueer for awhile and it irritated a lot of others to the point where they would not be seen with me because I caused others to start thinking critically about who was standing in front of them. I was the red flag in front of the bull in the china shop. Since I like chaos, it was a lot of fun. Until it wasn't.

So what about passing? Maybe I blend, maybe I do not. I do not care that much and do not get why so many others should be so overly concerned. If I had not changed my thought patterns on this issues, I would have missed out on making some really great friends who, in turn, introduced me to things that will be with me for a lifetime.

Here's the bottom line, about that essay or any other that anyone might choose to write.

You can't please everyone all the time. Nor can I make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

I spoke my own truth in the "Lookist" essay. That truth wasn't meant to hurt, dismiss or damage anyone else. It was simply my truth and one that, in years of experiences among women of a transsexual history, I have found to be simply true for me. So, I put it out there.

It is what it is. No, I cannot be miserable and make a difference, SusanK, in the way you feel. Nor can anyone else. Your feelings, your path through your life, and your opinions are simply your own. To feel a need to keep mine quiet and hidden would be only to ensure the continuation of what I readily agree is a privilege that some women with a trans-history have that others don't.

O, we don't have to talk about it. We only need to find ways to make ourselves scarce when we run across people like yourself. We can act as if we don't see you and make you disappear. We can see you and then excuse ourselves to go elsewhere. And the entire difficulty that we have and that you have remains right where it is: under a very thick blanket of "off-limits" -- hold that feeling otherwise someone like you will come along and bash us. *sigh*

So, I chose to write about it after discussing it with my friend. Perhaps you'll give me an essay on "internalized transphobia." That's your prerogative. But that essay you write will not change anything. Mine, oth, may help me along in a change within myself.

About a year ago I was PMing with someone else on this board. Eventually she sent me a pic and my initial response to the pic was "Yes!! You are real, you are a definite woman." That was based entirely on my perception of her looks in that pic. It was a reaction to what I saw.

Now, in reality, how can I make a legitimate judgement on that from a picture? I can't. But, I was willing to do so. That is my struggle, what I wrote about in the essay you so evidently could not read with any understanding. That it exists in the so-called "trans-community" is a fact. To hide it is simply to perpetuate it. In us all in one way or another.

A very wise woman who helped me immensely through the years once told me, "Nichole, don't get involved with "transsexuals." They will drive you crazy and they will never get better. They will only hurt you."

The goal is to find my own womanhood. That is not some monolithic, one-size fits all block of 52% of all human beings. That is a journey through an individual life that leads each of us to a different place. Hopefully we can still stand together about the things that harm us, demean us. But to do that I need to talk about what I see as my own problems. Talking about yours does me not one whit of good.

The wise-woman was exactly spot-on as far as I'm concerned. Anyone who remains stuck in "transsexual" is not going to find either "manhood" or "womanhood." They are simply going to perpetuate the notion that no one who has a trans-history is "real." Because to stay stuck in "transsexual" is simply to stay stuck in my own pain and misery. What is real about that is simply the pain and misery.

If I am a woman, then I shall be a woman. To do that I must learn of myself and my path through the world. I cannot bring you along on that little walk, to try would make the effort useless to start with. I can only bring myself.

Now, you may criticize that and hate it. You may decide that I am "internally transphobic." So be it. But for me, SusanK, "transsexual" is not a state that continues indefinitely. It's a phase that one realizes and lives through, like any other physical/mental phase, childhood, adolescence adulthood.

So, I don't "identify" as transsexual. No more than I "identify" as a "child" or "adolescent." I am simply another woman with a relatively interesting biological past. You see, for me transsexuality ends. Just as childhood ended.

YMMV.

Nichole

I thought it was an excellent article and apt comparison. I'm not sure what your critics want, Nichole, that you not acknowledge or discuss it at all? The article certainly doesn't say those feelings are a good thing.

Dennis

Sheesh, no one is saying that feeling this way is right!   Like I said before, at least we are discussing it, talking to friends about it, getting it out in the open, trying to find ways to improve it, instead of burying it deep within ourselves and pretending that it doesn't exist.  Heck I don't see how that can be a good thing either at all.  Consequently, If some of you are not understanding the message of Nichole's essay, read it again and again until you do.  It is written in plain, simple English you know? and even non-native English speakers like myself had no trouble understanding it!

tink :icon_chick:

I think this is now an appropriate time and place. I want to thank everyone for reading, no matter your feelings about either me, my feelings or yourself and your feelings.

I want to especially thank Je for posting a link at the trueselves BB as well. The "reads" total for the blog has really been good today, in fact, with another 3-4 hours to go the reads have exceeded by almost 50 the highest previous visits to the blog. And a huge number of people at trueselves have clicked on!!

You can find trueselves as well as this forum and others listed on "Forums and TS Info" on my home page at the blog.

Personally, I think the discussion is wonderful and the readership is simply fantastic, at least for the day. :)

Thanks to all of you.

Nichole 

Nichole--

You're assuming I can read. I had to ask Tink to say the whole thing out loud for me. She's exhausted.  ::)

Stealth :angel:

How did that work out for you Stealth? >:D

Quote from: Nichole on August 21, 2008, 04:44:29 PM
How did that work out for you Stealth? >:D

My lips are sealed!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Quote from: Stealthgrrl on August 21, 2008, 05:31:07 AM
"I've always followed the policy to find a way to be positive, and if I can't then don't say anything. It's not hard." Thank you for pointing this out. Otherwise, I might have gotten an opposite impression.

Thank you also for pointing out that the reactions under discussion are not perfect, saintly reactions. I believe that was the point. Please read it again until you fully understand it, or ask someone you trust to explain it to you.

I did, enough times. And I said I agreed with it. My point was, as someone said here too, it's out on the table open for all to see and know, like it wasn't already known. It made the point there is discrimination in the community about (trans)women who "don't make the grade" to pass as women.

And while it's nice to say we're discussing it, it still misses the point that discussion isn't answers. And except for reading about personal feelings I didn't see much in the essay about answers. I'm still listening. What will the community do to stop this discrimination within (trans)women?

Do those that pass really know what it's like not to pass? Empathy is fine but it's not understanding or acceptance. Don't you think some get tired of hearing the same thing natal women keep hearing, "Can I give you some pointers to help you look better?" If I want that, I'll ask my professional image consultant, I don't need it from people who think less of me because I'm not to their standard of (trans)women.

And that's my point which obviously was missed, I want to hear answers, not "Gee, we understand your problem." Yeah right. And yes, I'm still smiling at the discussion. It woke people up if only to defend it because it seems to be an almost unanimous feeling.

Quote from: SusanK on August 21, 2008, 06:49:42 PM

Quote from: Stealthgrrl on August 21, 2008, 05:31:07 AM
"I've always followed the policy to find a way to be positive, and if I can't then don't say anything. It's not hard." Thank you for pointing this out. Otherwise, I might have gotten an opposite impression.

Thank you also for pointing out that the reactions under discussion are not perfect, saintly reactions. I believe that was the point. Please read it again until you fully understand it, or ask someone you trust to explain it to you.

I did, enough times. And I said I agreed with it. My point was, as someone said here too,it's out on the table open for all to see and know, like it wasn't already known. It made the point there is discrimination in the community about (trans)women who "don't make the grade" to pass as women.

And while it's nice to say we're discussing it, it still misses the point that discussion isn't answers. And except for reading about personal feelings I didn't see much in the essay about answers. I'm still listening. What will the community do to stop this discrimination within (trans)women?

Do those that pass really know what it's like not to pass? Empathy is fine but it's not understanding or acceptance. Don't you think some get tired of hearing the same thing natal women keep hearing, "Can I give you some pointers to help you look better?" If I want that, I'll ask my professional image consultant, I don't need it from people who think less of me because I'm not to their standard of (trans)women.

And that's my point which obviously was missed, I want to hear answers, not "Gee, we understand your problem." Yeah right. And yes, I'm still smiling at the discussion. It woke people up if only to defend it because it seems to be an almost unanimous feeling.

SusanK, you don't seem to understand that "the community" CANNOT do a darned thing about the way people feel and how we behave because of those feelings. That is all internal to ourselves. Just like your feelings of being "not as good as" are your own: they don't belong to anyone else and no amount of others changing this or that is going to solve those problems within you.

Your comments have awakened no one of any importance, because they've not awakened you.

What's "the community" going to do, vote me out because I expressed the ways I feel? Well, "the community" never voted me in; I was BORN in, just as you were.

Whatever you think you have already known about me obviously is of no use to you. Simply because it hasn't made you reflect on your own feelings. Instead you say you want to wait for the "community" to do something about it.

There are two edges to that "passing/blending" sword. The attitudes and beliefs can only change individually and from within the self. And yes, if you are not among the "blending" then you are not a simple and innocent victim, although it does sound as if you want to be. You are responsible for changing yourself and the way you see yourself and how that comes through with the rest of the world. No ione can do that for you or for anyone else.

Invariably the hardest things we do are facing ourselves and making our own internal changes. No "community" will ever. ever do that for any of us.

The change within ourselves can only come from our individual selves.

As for your waiting on answers from me? Go find your own, they are the only ones that are going to help you.

Best,

Nichole

Boy, this could go on until the cows come home!

QuoteI want to especially thank Je for posting a link at the trueselves BB as well.

You're welcome Nichole.


Still, you anger me Nichole. I want my pm power back.  >:(

Hey, I'll try to end it then.

I'm not fond of the idea.  It's a sort of lame feminist idea (conjured up when they should have been trying to solve real problems that have real solutions) that to say its stating the obvious would be putting it mildly.  So, her is the theory.  Good looking people (by whatever standard) get treated better than ugly people do.  Here's the proof.  Turn on your TV.

And, for the record - all things being equal - will I choose to sit next to the pretty girl who is nicely dressed with a good completion instead of the fat girl, dressed badly and popping her zits in public?  Call me shallow, but, yes.  Sure.  Ditto preferring men who are not fat, dressed well (no tummy bulge sticking out between the stretch waist sweatpants and the food stained t-shirt who is also popping his zits in public?  Yes again.

Do people like to be shunned?  Not in a general sense - though I'm fond that sometimes me and my friends can get people crossing the street to walk down the other side.  But everyone wants to find some acceptance someplace.  And you would like to be accepted for what you see yourself as.

And, there is a dislike about feeling - as I understand what Nichole is trying to say - about being 'used' as part of being accepted.  No one wants to poster child for anything, its not like being a spokesmodel for Revlon, its like getting your face on the side of a milk carton.

Which gets to the real crux of what I think she was saying, which is the phrase like us with a difference.  Because that 'difference' makes one 'the other' not one of the group.

To that end, she admitted something far more honest than almost anything I read on here, which is:

In doing so we have both found reasons to dislike this visceral reaction we have. We are both pretty much embarrassed  by our discriminatory feelings about trans-women who don't blend in well with the vast majority of other women.

Far from being something bad, the willingness to confront in ourselves what we don't like in others, is the first explicit step in making one's self a better person.  And, you can only get to that point by really examining what you really think.  Which is a very good reason to write in the first place.

If we can look at ourselves with complete honesty, and are willing to do the hard work of recognizing and changing our outmoded ways of thinking, and shedding cultural baggage that doesn't help us be better people, this is a brave and admirable thing. I aspire to this in my life.

Zythyra

Reacting to beauty is hard wired very very hard in our brains,
part of looking out for the best breading stock...
(plenty of research on this and its conclusive).

Also, beauty is linked tightly to the need to take care of children,
since almost every beauty standards relate to child like
traits. Like large eyes, rounded large forehead, small nose, small chins and.
Our minds automatically are wired to like someone who has these traits
(that's why we also find young animals, who also have those traits, cute).

That's why I have to laugh at feminists fighting this millions of years old,
cross species trait, like it was some kind of conscious decision to prefer the
beautiful.

Quote from: Keira on August 24, 2008, 05:49:04 AM
Reacting to beauty is hard wired very very hard in our brains,
part of looking out for the best breading stock...
(plenty of research on this and its conclusive).

Part of the art of makeup is mimicking (to the extent possible with paint,) youth and arousal.

And, as a friend once said, "Why are babies so cute? To keep ya' from killin' 'em!"

=K

Quote from: Keira on August 24, 2008, 05:49:04 AM
Reacting to beauty is hard wired very very hard in our brains,
part of looking out for the best breading stock...
(plenty of research on this and its conclusive).

...
That's why I have to laugh at feminists fighting this millions of years old,
cross species trait, like it was some kind of conscious decision to prefer the
beautiful.

The other fact about those few million year old traits, Keira, is that another one allows us to reflect on those traits within ourselves and ameliorate some of the more visceral reactions we have to others.

That is what the essay drives toward -- not that the visceral reactions aren't there, but that a human mind that's willing to struggle with itself can change some of her automatic reactions.

Of course, that isn't for everyone's willingness to embrace.

Nichole

Nichole, this is not just a human bias, its a cross specie incredibly embedded bias, it probably implicates dozens of genes since it comes from way before the split with the apes.

I just find it completely ridiculous that anyone can even believe they can consciously completely
fight it off. Not going to happen. You can maybe dampen it and
stop its most blatant manifestation, but good
luck going against a series of atavistic response linked to breading and child rearing!

I don't think you could find more than a fraction of a percent of the earth's population
who doesn't have an unconscious bias in favor of the
beautiful, just as almost everybody has a bias towards the tall
(even short people have a bias in favor of taller people).
This can be tested by simple neuropsychology tests.