Susan's Place Transgender Resources

My partner and I went out to lunch at a Red Robin in a large mall, and I needed a couple of shirts, and so...

We only went to two stores, but I could not get out of there fast enough. Ugh, I hate shopping. What a relief to be home.

Now that I've rediscovered something worse than depression (that is, shopping), I'm not nearly as moody as I was earlier.

Funny, that.

I don't know. I don't fit the male stereotypes. I love going to the mall. Mostly for walking around. I'll buy an ice cream maybe and window shop. I love to go to the bookstore. Bought a book today. I'll blog about it. I also love getting clothes. Maybe it's because I get to pass when I buy guys clothes so I feel great about it. I'm sure after I transition clothes shopping won't be so exciting.

I don't like shopping either. I absolutely hate window shopping and I only like shopping if I can actually buy something or if its something I'm excited about.

However, sometimes you have to get out and do something fun or in your case, more distressing than your depression. When you get stuck in depression or a rut, a change of pace can really help.

Yesterday I was going crazy from being inside the house all the time. My parents took me out for dinner and to see Mamma Mia. I never thought it would have helped but it did.

I've always hated shopping, especially mall shopping.  Partly because there are too many choices and I can't find what I want; partly because of the overstimulation - people, elevator music, the upper floor that shakes, bright lights, signs, echoes -- okay, so I'm ADD.  ::)

My daughter hates shopping as much as I do; go figure my son LOVES shopping.

Anyway, last week, my daughter needed a hat, so off we go to find one.  Three stores later, we hit the jackpot.  Suddenly my daughter is enjoying shopping, and I was drawn to the plaid shirts like a moth to the flame.  $300 later we managed to escape.

We were having fun.  And my daughter says, gee mom, now that you're a guy, you like shopping!  Which is true.  Now that I'm in the men's department I LOVE IT!!

Okay, I'm weird.  But I already knew that.  Can't wait to go get that first suit!!  But will wait until I pass more.

Jay

Shopping does my head in.

Not because I don't like it, but because there are no shops that sell clothes that I want around here and I have to travel 2 hours to a place where they do sell them and I never have enough money or time.

Noone looks at you there anyway, because everyone's too wrapped up in their own worlds to notice and most people who go to my shop look "odd" as you may call it, anyway.

Or maybe, it's me, who's wrapped up and hasn't noticed anything. Who knows.  ;D

DEpends on what it is, if its guitar shopping its great. If anything else, then its boring.

Frack. Am I the only guy who likes to... I don't know... explore? I like to think of myself as a detective like Jack Webb's detective character or a uh, uh... adventurer like Indiana Jones. Manly enough for ya?

I personally enjoy over stimulation. Part of being OCD and anxiety-ridden. It distracts me from... well, the crap I have to deal with each day.

I DO NOT however, enjoy spending money. I guess I'm a window shopper. Buying stuff makes me extraordinarily nervous. Bought a book today and I can feel my bank account getting smaller and smaller...

Indiana Jones was my hero when I was 4. :laugh:

Sorry to intrude on your thread, guys, but... I absolutely can't stand shopping. Unless it's for my girlfriend, I treat any form of retail incursion as a military operation.

Synchronise watch. Get in. Get merchandise. Avoid SAM (Someone After Money) sites. Get out.

But that maybe because I'm largely antisocial and awkward when out and about... but nevertheless... I believe the only form of therapy to increase my stress levels is retail therapy. :-\

Quote from: Leiandra on August 30, 2008, 07:42:37 PM
But that maybe because I'm largely antisocial and awkward when out and about... but nevertheless... I believe the only form of therapy to increase my stress levels is retail therapy. :-\

Exactly how I used to feel, pre-transition.  Even though I don't pass, I have so much more self-confidence and far less awkwardness than I used to have.  I used to feel like everyone was staring at me, judging me, and it made me hugely uncomfortable.  Not any more!  Though its a double-edged sword.  Now I spend more money... ::)

Jay

I hate shopping too. Yeah, Dan looks like you're the lone clotheshorse here.  :laugh:

Well, I have to admit that back when I was younger and thinner, I didn't so much MIND shopping for guy clothes, especially ties. But I really do hate shopping in general, and I dislike having to browse. My idea of doing it right is knowing exactly what I want, getting in, and getting out. Thank god for the Internet, but I even find online shopping tedious and irritating.

Now that I've had chest surgery and the magic of testosterone has melted away my hips, I love shopping. :)

With the exception of a few, I think shopping is a guy worst idea of fun.  Before, in my other life I hated shopping.  In and out and home.  But now I love to shop especially clothes and the ever popular shoes.  My credit cards have a habit of hiding whenever I enter a store.

Like today I went to three stores looking for satin sheets.  I found them at Bed, Bath and Beyond.  I am in love with that store, it was the first time I ever went in to it and Peg and I were there for an hour and half.

If I ever have an SO, he or she will take away my credit cards. :(

"When the going get tough, the tough go shopping"  ;D

Janet

Quote from: Mister on August 30, 2008, 09:57:22 PM
Now that I've had chest surgery and the magic of testosterone has melted away my hips, I love shopping. :)

......

-CLING-

HAH! We've got ourselves a TWO MAN TEAM!

Quote from: Elwood on August 30, 2008, 10:36:04 PM

Quote from: Mister on August 30, 2008, 09:57:22 PM
Now that I've had chest surgery and the magic of testosterone has melted away my hips, I love shopping. :)

......

-CLING-

HAH! We've got ourselves a TWO MAN TEAM!

Dork.    :P

Straight from the 1950's.  :icon_ciggy: I'm a full on legitimate class-A dork.

Quote from: Elwood on August 30, 2008, 11:10:10 PM
Straight from the 1950's.  :icon_ciggy: I'm a full on legitimate class-A dork.

Smoking's bad, mmkay?

Yes, Mr. Mackey.

haha you guys are funny. :P  and i <3 shopping!

I LOVE op-shopping XD (second-hand clothing stores) and buying really random, alternative, styley man clothes XD I even liked it back in the day when I wore more feminine stuff... but that was still op-shopping too XD

i haven't gone shopping since my compression shirts got in... i oughta take care of that... then i might know how it feels.

I dont mind shopping or anything. I mind being "ma'am" *twitch*

Lane

It depends what I'm shopping for. If it's something I like or want, then I don't mind it. When I'm shopping with my mom, I just hope she doesn't take forever looking at every little girly thing in the shop. But I hate it when my mom just assumes she knows what I like. Just because I like my cat, does not mean that I'm cat crazy and want everything cat related. Most of the cat related stuff are girly anyways. Oh well, at least she stopped buying me women's clothes at Christmas. Do you think she got the message when I never wore any or them?

I hate shopping never my size... what I like doesn't look good on me because of my boobs..

As soon as I have chest surgery I will be MUCH MUCH happier! :D

Quote from: Jay on August 31, 2008, 11:38:44 AM
I hate shopping never my size... what I like doesn't look good on me because of my boobs..

As soon as I have chest surgery I will be MUCH MUCH happier! :D

Yeah, I feel the exact same way. Some shirts look so nice, but when you throw boobs in... That's why I try to get slightly baggy shirts.

Quote from: Jay on August 31, 2008, 11:38:44 AM
I hate shopping never my size... what I like doesn't look good on me because of my boobs..

As soon as I have chest surgery I will be MUCH MUCH happier! :D

what, no underworks?

Quote from: iFindMeHere on August 31, 2008, 02:18:49 PM

Quote from: Jay on August 31, 2008, 11:38:44 AM
I hate shopping never my size... what I like doesn't look good on me because of my boobs..

As soon as I have chest surgery I will be MUCH MUCH happier! :D

what, no underworks?

Binder's only help so much on those of us with huge moobs *sighs*

I've always worn loose shirts myself.

But yeh I don't mind shopping as long as it's blades, sweets, craft stuff, or really cool stuff like in Spencers. Oh and Star Trek books.  I don't usually do a lot of cloth shopping, though done more recently because lacking in mens clothing after my time trying to be more feminine and having gained bit of weight.  Hate it when don't have money though LOL and I don't like to go shopping unless I'm going to get something.

Quote from: Aiden on August 31, 2008, 05:53:03 PM

Quote from: iFindMeHere on August 31, 2008, 02:18:49 PM

Quote from: Jay on August 31, 2008, 11:38:44 AM
I hate shopping never my size... what I like doesn't look good on me because of my boobs..

As soon as I have chest surgery I will be MUCH MUCH happier! :D

what, no underworks?

Binder's only help so much on those of us with huge moobs *sighs*

I've always worn loose shirts myself.

But yeh I don't mind shopping as long as it's blades, sweets, craft stuff, or really cool stuff like in Spencers. Oh and Star Trek books.  I don't usually do a lot of cloth shopping, though done more recently because lacking in mens clothing after my time trying to be more feminine and having gained bit of weight.  Hate it when don't have money though LOL and I don't like to go shopping unless I'm going to get something.

yeah, i have a friend who had top surgery 2 months ago and gave me his old underworks. he wore both at once for that reason. I have ibt's so upside: just one of the Double Front Compression shirts work. downside: cannot gt away with no compression to save my skin!

Lately I've been thinking about getting some sort of a binder, but I'm having some debate. First, I don't know where to get one. Second is I'm taking gym this year and I don't know what the other girls would think about it... unless I changed in one of the toilet stalls or just drop out of gym all together.

I use to use shopping a lot to medicate my unhappiness with.  I do still occasionally do that when I have a big downer and have some cash burning a hole in my pocket.  Only now I don't really get it half as much as I used to in fact it bores me if I shop for more than say 1 and a half hours now absolute tops.

I honestly think I get more pleasure from saving money now but then I am a poor student,or will be again once my course starts in september.  Yes I am going back to college at the grand old age of 28 to study computer aided design. 8)

I love shopping! :D For fun things, like clothes, crafts, soap that smells good, etc. Buying toilet paper or silverware isn't my favorite hobby.

Quote from: milliontoone on August 31, 2008, 08:28:49 PM
I use to use shopping a lot to medicate my unhappiness with.  I do still occasionally do that when I have a big downer and have some cash burning a hole in my pocket.  Only now I don't really get it half as much as I used to in fact it bores me if I shop for more than say 1 and a half hours now absolute tops.

I honestly think I get more pleasure from saving money now but then I am a poor student,or will be again once my course starts in september.  Yes I am going back to college at the grand old age of 28 to study computer aided design. 8)

'Grats! I'm 28 and working through my first year of college. :) Urban Teaching/Multicultural counseling

Good to see some older students here. I didn't graduate till I was thirty-four. Well, I DID get a double bachelor's degree, which added time, esp. since I was only a part-time student. But still...glad I'm not the only late bloomer.

Quote from: Adam on August 31, 2008, 06:19:39 PM
Lately I've been thinking about getting some sort of a binder, but I'm having some debate. First, I don't know where to get one. Second is I'm taking gym this year and I don't know what the other girls would think about it... unless I changed in one of the toilet stalls or just drop out of gym all together.

I wore one to the  hospital the other day, and the day I was leaving I put it back on.  Then the nurse said something about checking my incisions again.  She never did, but it got me thinking how I would explain a binder.  Basically I was going to tell her it was an athletic t-shirt/bra all in one, which is technically true.

Underworks makes some that are double layer and look like a muscle shirt, which would be easy to explain away.  I got some on Ebay that were single layer, but you could claim they are a bra/shirt.  Kind of like those athletic tanks with the built in bra (I used to have some of those in girl mode).

Jay

Quote from: sneakersjay on September 01, 2008, 07:32:33 AM

Quote from: Adam on August 31, 2008, 06:19:39 PM
Lately I've been thinking about getting some sort of a binder, but I'm having some debate. First, I don't know where to get one. Second is I'm taking gym this year and I don't know what the other girls would think about it... unless I changed in one of the toilet stalls or just drop out of gym all together.

I wore one to the  hospital the other day, and the day I was leaving I put it back on.  Then the nurse said something about checking my incisions again.  She never did, but it got me thinking how I would explain a binder.  Basically I was going to tell her it was an athletic t-shirt/bra all in one, which is technically true.

Underworks makes some that are double layer and look like a muscle shirt, which would be easy to explain away.  I got some on Ebay that were single layer, but you could claim they are a bra/shirt.  Kind of like those athletic tanks with the built in bra (I used to have some of those in girl mode).

Jay

Well I guess if I ever did get a binder, that could work. Now I just need a solution to my deoderant problem. I hate wearing women's deoderant, but putting on men's in the girls change room would be weird. What should I do?

Men's deodorant is stronger.  If anyone asks just use that excuse lol.  I never had a problem using mens even before I realized I was Trans.  If anyone asked I just told them I tend to sweat a lot and it's stronger.  (which in my case was truth as well)

Quote from: Aiden on September 01, 2008, 10:33:39 AM
Men's deodorant is stronger.  If anyone asks just use that excuse lol.  I never had a problem using mens even before I realized I was Trans.  If anyone asked I just told them I tend to sweat a lot and it's stronger.  (which in my case was truth as well)

lol, I sweat a lot too. It almost made me wonder if I was already a man.

I use men's deodorant because it keeps me dry longer than women's deodorant. I keep trying different kinds (both men's a women's) trying to find which kind keeps me dry the longest. So far the best is Degree for Men.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy168%2Fpenguin_furuba%2Ffootdeodor9.png&hash=8b6e6c90e0f4bec8c890cce3248ca82b88f0aa47)

My tiny foot.  :eusa_doh:

Haven't tried Degree, I've used gillette which for some reason causes me to itch more, and Speed Stick currently.  Not sure if Speed Stick is men's or womens, had to pick it up at a shop when lost my other one on the camping trip weekend before last.  I've also used arm and hammer mens in past. 

I've tried various female ones as well, but even the strongest female ones have found doesn't seem to work well enough especially when add heat and a lot of walking and carrying heavy stuff.

Speed Stick in my experience is pretty androgynous in scent.

The best female one I've used to date was Secret, and it was a special formula (pretty much had more aluminum in it). But it was more costly because of the special formula.

Quote from: Elwood on September 01, 2008, 12:53:51 PM
Speed Stick in my experience is pretty androgynous in scent.

The best female one I've used to date was Secret, and it was a special formula (pretty much had more aluminum in it). But it was more costly because of the special formula.

Yeh same here, that seemed to be best Female one had found. 

Quote from: Aiden on September 01, 2008, 01:16:23 PM

Quote from: Elwood on September 01, 2008, 12:53:51 PM
Speed Stick in my experience is pretty androgynous in scent.

The best female one I've used to date was Secret, and it was a special formula (pretty much had more aluminum in it). But it was more costly because of the special formula.

Yeh same here, that seemed to be best Female one had found. 

i use unscented anti-p from Mitchum. The girls stuff doesn't work, the guys stuff pretty much does.

So how many of us guys find that to be the case I wonder?

I really think it has to do with the fact that women supposedly sweat less. But we are guys in women's bodies who are probably a lot more active.

Quote from: Elwood on September 01, 2008, 03:51:10 PM
I really think it has to do with the fact that women supposedly sweat less. But we are guys in women's bodies who are probably a lot more active.

I am not very active. If you want to know about my life, look up "The Spoon Theory". I still sweat through girl deod.
The only reason I still use it is because I can't buy new stuff when I can still stretch the old to be "good enough".
Lane

Hm. Well, are you overweight? People who are overweight sweat more... or if you live in a hotter climate, maybe. Or if you wear black all the time. That'll make a person sweat.

Well I'm glad I sweat a lot. It makes me feel more like a man. And maybe I will try Speed Stick and just change in one of the bathroom stalls, even though they are rather cramped. Oh well, I'll figure something out.

Wish I sweat more. I only sweat out of my armpits. D:< When I run a little comes off my forehead. But the rest of me just "glistens." Not enough to make beads.

lol When I work out, sweat just pours from my forehead. I'm constantly whipping the sweat out of my eyes.

Man. I can't help but be envious. My skinny body holds all the fluid in. I have no fat to store it in. Without reserves, my body refuses to waste it my spilling it out.

Well I guess that's one of the advantages I have of being a little on the chubby side, but I'm not fat and hopefully I never will be.

Quote from: Elwood on September 01, 2008, 06:43:41 PM
Man. I can't help but be envious. My skinny body holds all the fluid in. I have no fat to store it in. Without reserves, my body refuses to waste it my spilling it out.

Trust me, Elwood, you do not want to sweat where I sweat from (other than armpits and forehead).  I get a lot of sweat on my back and under my lumps that I cannot even wipe most of the time because of my binder and also in an area whose woes can be summed up with one word:  swamp ass :eusa_sick: .

Quote from: noxdraconis on September 01, 2008, 08:11:26 PM

Quote from: Elwood on September 01, 2008, 06:43:41 PMMan. I can't help but be envious. My skinny body holds all the fluid in. I have no fat to store it in. Without reserves, my body refuses to waste it my spilling it out.

Trust me, Elwood, you do not want to sweat where I sweat from (other than armpits and forehead).  I get a lot of sweat on my back and under my lumps that I cannot even wipe most of the time because of my binder and also in an area whose woes can be summed up with one word:  swamp ass :eusa_sick: .

Oh, I do get a sweaty ass sometimes. But only if I'm sitting on something hot like a leather car seat. But heck, I think a sweaty back is sexy. I wish I could pull that off.

Heck, NOW I'm sweating, just thinking about that! LOL! Sweating on my stomach, mostly.

LOL well the black and the bit overweight probably good reason why I sweat a lot more now lol.  Plus wearing about 3 layers at times when out and about.

But interestingly I usually don't smell much long as wearing good deoderant I tend to just have scent down below and around the breasts.

band camp was the worst.... i had major swamp butt going.  i sweat hard core too. >_<  i use mens axe deoderant.  it smells like man.  haha  i sweat on my chest a lot.  it tickles when the beads go down bud i cant wipe it off or scratch. >_<  grr!

For those of you guys who are sweating under binders...    put baby powder (good) or gold bold (best!) on your chest/stomach/back before putting on your binder.  it'll keep that pesky under-boob sweat from collecting and also prevent an even less desirable side effect- blisters.  Yes, they're possible and yes, they suck a hundred times more than you're imagining right now.

Haven't had blisters, but have gotten a number of pimples/boils since started wearing a binder.  Probably TMI lol

From what you guys are saying, I'm starting to think that maybe binding isn't something I want to be doing right now after all, or maybe ever. I have terrifically sensitive skin. I'm allergic to all synthetic fabrics, can't have anything rough next to my skin. I can't handle regular soaps, detergents, or antiperspirants--I imagine that Gold Bond would probably give me trouble, too. I'm hypersensitive to my own perspiration. I get eczema--in fact, in the bad old days, I had it all over my body.

That was probably TMI, too, but I was THIS close to ordering a binder from Underworks this weekend. I don't know what else to do about my chest. I feel like I can't stand it anymore. And then I think that I would come across as ridiculous if I actually DID bind because I won't be perfectly flat and my voice is all wrong and everything else. I'm much older than most of you guys who aren't on T. I won't come across as having a delayed or not-yet-completed adolescence. I'll come across as what I've often felt myself to be...an androgynous freak.

I will have a whole new group of students this year, but a lot of the instructors already know me. Maybe I should rethink binding if/when I go on T or if I start teaching someplace I've never taught before.

But then I have to deal with these things on my chest, and everyone else can see them.

GAH.

Yeh another problem I see is surgery and the tubes they have you wear for drainage for a few days.  Hope your not allergic to the materials they use in them.  :(

Quote from: Aiden on September 02, 2008, 12:20:23 PM
Yeh another problem I see is surgery and the tubes they have you wear for drainage for a few days.  Hope your not allergic to the materials they use in them.  :(

Yeah, well, I've worried about that. And about the pressure garments they make you wear afterward. But there are certain oral meds that I've taken that make my skin "normal" for awhile. A few times, when my eczema was really raging, the doc would give me some pills--some kind of steroid, I think, but it's been a long time--to get my skin temporarily under control and give me a clean slate.

My skin is a bit hardier now, and I only get eczema in patches now and then, but I have to be very, very careful.

I used to wish I could stay on the meds forever, but the long-term effects were seen as too dangerous. Anyway, it's possible that I could take meds like those for a little while post-surgery. I don't know if they're contraindicated. But as long as it's short-term, maybe that would work.

Quote from: Arch on September 02, 2008, 11:59:43 AM
From what you guys are saying, I'm starting to think that maybe binding isn't something I want to be doing right now after all, or maybe ever. I have terrifically sensitive skin. I'm allergic to all synthetic fabrics, can't have anything rough next to my skin. I can't handle regular soaps, detergents, or antiperspirants--I imagine that Gold Bond would probably give me trouble, too. I'm hypersensitive to my own perspiration. I get eczema--in fact, in the bad old days, I had it all over my body.

That was probably TMI, too, but I was THIS close to ordering a binder from Underworks this weekend. I don't know what else to do about my chest. I feel like I can't stand it anymore. And then I think that I would come across as ridiculous if I actually DID bind because I won't be perfectly flat and my voice is all wrong and everything else. I'm much older than most of you guys who aren't on T. I won't come across as having a delayed or not-yet-completed adolescence. I'll come across as what I've often felt myself to be...an androgynous freak.

I will have a whole new group of students this year, but a lot of the instructors already know me. Maybe I should rethink binding if/when I go on T or if I start teaching someplace I've never taught before.

But then I have to deal with these things on my chest, and everyone else can see them.

GAH.

Hey Arch, can you wear a plain white cotton Tshirt under your binder?

Posted on: September 02, 2008, 12:00:24 PM

---

Quote from: Aiden on September 02, 2008, 12:20:23 PM
Yeh another problem I see is surgery and the tubes they have you wear for drainage for a few days.  Hope your not allergic to the materials they use in them.  :(

I have pretty sensitive skin too and this wasn't a problem.  The facility where my surgery was done is entirely latex-free, as was my post surgical binder, etc.  The drains themselves are made of implant grade silicone.

Quote from: Mister on September 02, 2008, 02:03:33 PM
Hey Arch, can you wear a plain white cotton Tshirt under your binder?

I'm thinking that I might be able to do this, but I worry about wrinkles. I used to ride horses, and one wrinkle in a saddle blanket can cause all sorts of problems. I'm not a horse, but I vividly remember being indoctrinated into the smooth saddle blanket club when I was a kid!

And after all you folks started talking about perspiration and pimples and boils, oh my--well, my courage started to quail.

I guess the only thing to do is to experiment. But I know that my chest won't be flat enough. My boobs are too fricking big. Hate them, hate them, hate them.

Quote from: Arch on September 02, 2008, 06:57:56 PM

Quote from: Mister on September 02, 2008, 02:03:33 PM
Hey Arch, can you wear a plain white cotton Tshirt under your binder?

I'm thinking that I might be able to do this, but I worry about wrinkles. I used to ride horses, and one wrinkle in a saddle blanket can cause all sorts of problems. I'm not a horse, but I vividly remember being indoctrinated into the smooth saddle blanket club when I was a kid!

And after all you folks started talking about perspiration and pimples and boils, oh my--well, my courage started to quail.

I guess the only thing to do is to experiment. But I know that my chest won't be flat enough. My boobs are too fricking big. Hate them, hate them, hate them.

Yeh wel wearing a shirt under it might help in the pimples and boils part.  I don't wear a shirt under mine because I don't feel like wearing 4 layers of clothing lol.  As is I wear the binder, then an A-shirt to help smooth things out more, and then regular shirt.  and all black usually so gets hot.  I wear a lot of dark clothing so getting a black binder figure blinds in better, not as likely to show up or be noticable expecialy when wearing my self made muscle shirt lol  (took sleeves off of a long sleeved shirt)

I have the compression shirts from underworks.  Binder fabric on the inside; cotton tee shirt material on the outside.  This I assume so you can wear it as a shirt.  I have a tank top/wife beater and a muscle shirt.

What I do is wear them inside out, with the cotton against my skin.  I used to use baby powder to absorb the moisture, but stopped when I started T, as the gel is kind of messy and I have to wait for it to dry before I can get dressed, and by then I forget the powder.

Also, if I'm going to wear a button down shirt, having the shiny compression fabric on the outside makes my tee shirt slide over it and not bunch.  I usually only do that if I'm going to work where it's fairly cool with the air conditioning.  I doubt I'd wear that many layers outside in the heat.

I am so looking forward to having top surgery in Dec!!  Counting the days!!

Jay

I'm fortunante it doesn't get above 100 degrees F here or if does is very rare.  And I have fairly good heat tolerence.  But still I only wear that many layers when out in public.  At home or among friends who know what I am and have accepted me I will at times take off a layer or 2.

Compered to a Klingon costume it's nothing :)  I think of it now as building abit of tolerence so can stand to wear the costume longer lol. 

And congrats on the surgery.  Mines a long way down the road lol

Quote from: Aiden on September 02, 2008, 07:40:24 PM
Compered to a Klingon costume it's nothing :) 

Or eating half-dead gagh.

Quote from: Arch on September 02, 2008, 07:42:47 PM

Quote from: Aiden on September 02, 2008, 07:40:24 PM
Compered to a Klingon costume it's nothing :) 

Or eating half-dead gagh.

qa'plagh!