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You know, there is this doctor at work who calls herself "an Atheist".  However, she does pray before she enters the OR.  She mumbles something, closes her eyes and looks upwards.

Who do Atheists pray to?  I was under the impression that Atheists didn't look to an invisible, mystical, supernatural being to help get them out of whatever it is that is troubling them.   I thought they looked to themselves, their family, and their friends for support.  Strange, eh?

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tink on September 13, 2008, 02:48:07 PM
You know, there is this doctor at work who calls herself "an Atheist".  However, she does pray before she enters the OR.  She mumbles something, closes her eyes and looks upwards.tink :icon_chick:

Not strange. This isn't necessarily praying. I don't pray, but I sometimes "talk myself up" before doing something challenging or stressful. I don't look upward, though. I suspect that some people look upward because it gives them a sense of connection with the cosmos, or something. Or it could be habit.

Have you asked her about this practice--respectfully, of course?

Quote from: Arch on September 13, 2008, 03:02:51 PM
Have you asked her about this practice--respectfully, of course?

No, I haven't but rumors have it that she prays in the OR while she is assisting or performing surgery as well.  And no, in this case, I don't think she is talking to "herself".  I will ask around on Monday to be sure!  >:D

tink :icon_chick:

There's a saying... "there are no atheists in a foxhole", which I presume to mean that it's one thing to be atheistic when you can afford to be philosophical about the subject in relative comfort and safety. But when your life is in danger, or someone else's life is in danger, that philosophy often tends to go out the window. After all, what do you have to lose?

It takes a certain degree of single-minded determination to stick to atheism and not become agnostic, especially if/when that belief overrides the self-preservation instinct (in this case "please, God, if you're up there... I don't wanna die!").

Quote from: Leiandra on September 13, 2008, 07:03:04 PM
There's a saying... "there are no atheists in a foxhole", which I presume to mean that it's one thing to be atheistic when you can afford to be philosophical about the subject in relative comfort and safety. But when your life is in danger, or someone else's life is in danger, that philosophy often tends to go out the window. After all, what do you have to lose?

For myself, I have always felt that Pascal's Wager ("what do you have to lose") does not take into consideration those forms of self-respect, self-reliance, and personal responsibility that are fully predicated on the position that there is overwhelmingly insufficient evidence of any kind of deity as he/she/it is generally defined. I would be supremely disgusted with myself if I tossed out my carefully reasoned atheism in a stressful or even life-threatening situation. No, more than disgusted: contemptuous.

Mind you, other people can believe what they will. But if after all these years my own...I'll call it a belief system--if it cracks open just because some hoodlum points a gun at me, then my entire character is severely diminished. I feel that it's the extraordinary circumstances that show us what we're really made of.

If I ever find myself in a foxhole, I hope M. Pascal finds another one to haunt. I admire his math but not his philosophy.

This post is not meant to denigrate any non-atheists, by the way. You all do what works for you, and I do what works for me.

Quote from: Leiandra on September 13, 2008, 07:03:04 PM
There's a saying... "there are no atheists in a foxhole",

Sadly that is about what I found out when my grandfather was ill. I prayed. Pissed me of something royal that I did too.  That was probably the start of unravelling my world view I suppose.

Quote from: Arch on September 13, 2008, 07:23:48 PM
the position that there is overwhelmingly insufficient evidence of any kind of deity as he/she/it is generally defined.

I totally mean no offense an lets call this a difference of opinion but LOL.
I woke up with a goddess near this morn so, yeah. (No, last night was NOT a good night, at all. In anyway shape or form.)

There are plenty of atheists in foxholes (http://www.maaf.info/).  Even if there weren't, praying to God doesn't make him real.

Quote from: Arch on September 13, 2008, 07:23:48 PM
For myself, I have always felt that Pascal's Wager ("what do you have to lose") does not take into consideration those forms of self-respect, self-reliance, and personal responsibility that are fully predicated on the position that there is overwhelmingly insufficient evidence of any kind of deity as he/she/it is generally defined. I would be supremely disgusted with myself if I tossed out my carefully reasoned atheism in a stressful or even life-threatening situation. No, more than disgusted: contemptuous.

Don't forget Pascal's plan for making yourself believe in God - go through the motions until you've been brainwashed!  That doesn't sound very honest or spiritual to me.  :D

Quote from: Kimberly on September 13, 2008, 09:22:33 PM

Quote from: Arch on September 13, 2008, 07:23:48 PM
the position that there is overwhelmingly insufficient evidence of any kind of deity as he/she/it is generally defined.

I totally mean no offense an lets call this a difference of opinion but LOL.

I'm not sure I understand - are you saying that there's lots of evidence that a deity or deities exist?  I'd love to hear more about that if you're up for a bit of friendly argument...

**grins eagerly**

Quote from: Nephie on September 14, 2008, 12:13:48 AM
I'm not sure I understand - are you saying that there's lots of evidence that a deity or deities exist?  I'd love to hear more about that if you're up for a bit of friendly argument...

**grins eagerly**

I am saying that I believe that the "evidence" is there. Whether generic you sees it or not is something else. But, you have to understand I've had "voices" and such all of my life (quick quick someone call a shrink!), so the concept of "life as normal" isn't very "normal" to me. That said I personally find there to be evidence out there, but I do think most if not all of that can be "discarded" if one wishes. So it ends up, if you don't want to see it, there isn't evidence and (generic) you get to be justified, an if you do see evidence, well, (generic) you still gets to be justified. ^*shrug* It isn't my plan.

So, friendly argument? .. How about a new thread?

i grew up in a christian family, but i'm atheist because all the evidence points to the fact that god and gods of all varieties are fictional; attempts by "believers" to explain the world around them. we no longer need to resort to "god did it" as an explanation for the natural world. to be sure there are still gaps in our knowledge, and you can fill in those gaps with god if you like...many people do.  atheists clearly do not.

atheists don't believe in souls either.  there is very likely no such thing as a "spirit"  that survives this life.  what we call the "self" is completely a physical, brain based phenomenon.  when the brain dies, so do we. so no god, no reincarnation, no life everlasting of any kind. one life is all we get.

Quote from: Tink on September 13, 2008, 02:48:07 PM
Who do Atheists pray to?  I was under the impression that Atheists didn't look to an invisible, mystical, supernatural being to help get them out of whatever it is that is troubling them.   I thought they looked to themselves, their family, and their friends for support.  Strange, eh?

tink :icon_chick:

ya that's weird. atheists don't pray.  when i'm anxious, hurt, or anything else, i just remind myself that the best is yet to come, and remain optimistic that this feeling of anxiety shall soon be gone.  however, i usually turn to myself for guidance and answers, and i also turn to my most trusted advisors (family, older/mature friends) for guidance and advice.

ya, atheists have their fill and share of hard moments too, yet we just deal with them as they come, and we do just fine. i'll admit that it's probably harder to deal with such problems without a faith of some sort, but we wake up, remind ourselves to breath, and that it's only a day, and anyone can get through that.

Quote from: Natasha on September 14, 2008, 03:31:11 AM

ya that's weird. atheists don't pray.  when i'm anxious, hurt, or anything else, i just remind myself that the best is yet to come, and remain optimistic that this feeling of anxiety shall soon be gone.  however, i usually turn to myself for guidance and answers, and i also turn to my most trusted advisors (family, older/mature friends) for guidance and advice.

ya, atheists have their fill and share of hard moments too, yet we just deal with them as they come, and we do just fine. i'll admit that it's probably harder to deal with such problems without a faith of some sort, but we wake up, remind ourselves to breath, and that it's only a day, and anyone can get through that.

Yes, I thought so! Thanks very much for explaining, Katia. :) On a funny note, where do wizards, witches, and people that predict the future go, huh?  ;)  Heaven, hell, or is there a place in between?

;D

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tink on September 14, 2008, 12:53:07 PM
On a funny note, where do people that predict the future go, huh?  ;)  Heaven, hell, or is there a place in between?

;D

tink :icon_chick:

heh! they go where we all go. nowhere. but seriously i believe that people can develop their senses and perceptive abilities to extraordinary degrees.  it's fairly well established that most people subvocalize their "silent" thoughts. also, the ability to catalog, retain and examine minutiae might allow such a person to "predict" events because of a multitude of tiny clues overlooked by the less skilled observer. ;)

so, no, i don't believe that people can peer into a crystal ball or a cup of tealeaves and tell you what to wear to the ball next saturday, but i do believe that there are levels of perception above and beyond what most of us use on a day to day basis.
put another way, i believe some people have a "keen five senses." & you're one of them. that's why we're friends ;)

Quote from: Natasha on September 14, 2008, 07:07:57 PM
but seriously i believe that people can develop their senses and perceptive abilities to extraordinary degrees.  it's fairly well established that most people subvocalize their "silent" thoughts. also, the ability to catalog, retain and examine minutiae might allow such a person to "predict" events because of a multitude of tiny clues overlooked by the less skilled observer. ;)

"Mark my words, that squirrel will go up the chimney some day!" (Agatha Christie's grandmother accurately predicted the future actions of a captive squirrel. Loosely paraphrased from memory, so don't quote me on it. When I was a kid, I was crazy about Christie's autobiography.)  :laugh:

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." ~William Shakespeare. "Hamlet", Act 1 scene 5

I'll leave it there. People are entitled to their beliefs, whatever those may be. :) Personally, I don't believe parapsychology to be fake, nor metaphysics to be so easily explainable.

But that isn't really anything to do with atheism. :) At least not in the traditional definition of the word.

Quote from: Leiandra on September 14, 2008, 07:34:28 PM
Personally, I don't believe parapsychology to be fake, nor metaphysics to be so easily explainable.

Well, James Randi hasn't parted with his money, so that's not a very good plug for the parapsychologists. Still, there's always science fiction for those of us who like to dream.

I've been known to say "FSM I hope x doesn't happen" but it's pretty much just a figure of speech. My first reaction to the OP of this thread was wow, I really like that - I think I'm going to write it down and keep it around my desk somewhere!

Quote from: Natasha on September 14, 2008, 03:31:11 AMatheists don't believe in souls either.  there is very likely no such thing as a "spirit"  that survives this life.  what we call the "self" is completely a physical, brain based phenomenon.  when the brain dies, so do we. so no god, no reincarnation, no life everlasting of any kind. one life is all we get.

Well most of us don't; strictly speaking an atheist is one who lacks belief in a god, regardless of belief or non-belief in other "supernatural" entities. But we have formed a subculture that encompasses all these related logic-based beliefs and most of us fit in there. I myself am undecided on spirituality, I guess the best way to put it would be I think your statement is probably true but I hope it isn't. :)

So, are theists delusional then?

Yes, theists are delusional.  However, everyone is delusional in some way - it's a side effect of human cognition.  So it might be better said that theism is a delusion.  I'm not trying to offend anyone, but faith (as commonly construed) is just an emotionally laden term for a persistent belief held in the absence of - or opposition to - the evidence.  Since that belief is false as well, you've got the textbook definition of delusion.

Now, I'm not passing some kind of value judgment on people - at least, no more so than I would with any other false belief.  I'm just stating the logical corollary to atheism.  The only way out of theism being a delusion is to change the meaning of the word "faith".

I'm sure I have delusions too - but I can't tell you what they are.  If I knew about them, they wouldn't be delusions.

But, where is the proof that the belief is false?

That's for another thread - though I will say that my thoughts on that issue are heavily influenced by George H. Smith's book Atheism - The Case Against God.  It's the best all-around refutation of theism and supernaturalism I've ever seen.

Quote from: Nephie on September 15, 2008, 04:33:35 PM
Yes, theists are delusional. 

I'd appreciate it if you could state your beliefs without claims like this.

Quote from: Nero on September 15, 2008, 05:24:50 PM

Quote from: Nephie on September 15, 2008, 04:33:35 PM
Yes, theists are delusional. 

I'd appreciate it if you could state your beliefs without claims like this.

I have to agree with Nero. I don't believe that I'm delusional because I'm religious.

Someone asked a question.  I answered it honestly and directly, and then explained how I'm not making an ethical judgment - just a factual one.  I'm not calling anyone names here.

I can't speak for Nephie, but I personally have a hard time believing in an invisible man in the sky who has a hard-on of hate for humanity because two people in prison the garden of eden ate magic fruit from the advise of a talking snake.

Quote from: Nephie on September 15, 2008, 05:39:57 PM
Someone asked a question.  I answered it honestly and directly, and then explained how I'm not making an ethical judgment - just a factual one.  I'm not calling anyone names here.

But I still don't understand the "factual judgement." Where is the factual evidence proving that theists are delusional? Where is the factual evidence that proves deities do not exist?

Posted on: September 15, 2008, 03:42:18 PM

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Quote from: Flan Princess on September 15, 2008, 05:41:19 PM
I can't speak for Nephie, but I personally have a hard time believing in an invisible man in the sky who has a hard-on of hate for humanity because two people in prison the garden of eden ate magic fruit from the advise of a talking snake.

There is far more to religion than what you describe. For instance, what you describe is only part of of the Abrahamic scriptures. And, not all Abrahamists (Jews, Christians, Muslims) believe that the scriptures are litterally true. In fact, much of what my wife studied in seminary was that they are NOT historical accounts at all and are NOT to be taken as such.

I'm a Pagan, a polytheist. Do I believe that the rituals I attend or perform keep the Wheel of the Year moving? No, of course not. Are there those who do? Yes. Does that mean all Pagans believe this way? No. Likewise with your comments regarding the book of Genesis. Even the official teaching of the Catholic Church (the Church I grew up in) was that Genesis was legend, not fact.

If hate was the basis of Christian religion, the pastor of my family's church would not be an out-of-the-closet lesbian.

The condensed version: "existence" requires properties, qualities - a definite state.  Limits.  That's not compatible with most conceptions of God.  Further, to say that something "exists", you first should have a coherent idea of the thing you're talking about - otherwise, you're not saying anything at all, not explaining anything.  In the case of God in specific, or the supernatural in general, those things are by definition forever outside human understanding, and talking about their existence makes no sense.  When people say that God exists, that's like saying Qxulolol exists, or Gamsufras, or any other random sound.  It's got no cognitive content.

There's more to it that this, of course, but Smith's book explains it a lot better than I can.

Also, I do understand that most people don't interpret the Bible literally.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 15, 2008, 05:47:29 PM
There is far more to religion than what you describe. For instance, what you describe is only part of of the Abrahamic scriptures. And, not all Abrahamists (Jews, Christians, Muslims) believe that the scriptures are litterally true. In fact, much of what my wife studied in seminary was that they are NOT historical accounts at all and are NOT to be taken as such.

I'm a Pagan, a polytheist. Do I believe that the rituals I attend or perform keep the Wheel of the Year moving? No, of course not. Are there those who do? Yes. Does that mean all Pagans believe this way? No. Likewise with your comments regarding the book of Genesis. Even the official teaching of the Catholic Church (the Church I grew up in) was that Genesis was legend, not fact.

If hate was the basis of Christian religion, the pastor of my family's church would not be an out-of-the-closet lesbian.

I know that, I was just making fun of a certain monotheist religion. My point is, religious texts taken literally are used most often to take away the rights of others, rather then teach lessons through stories.

Quote from: Nephie on September 15, 2008, 05:51:13 PM
The condensed version: "existence" requires properties, qualities - a definite state.  Limits.  That's not compatible with most conceptions of God.  Further, to say that something "exists", you first should have a coherent idea of the thing you're talking about - otherwise, you're not saying anything at all, not explaining anything.  In the case of God in specific, or the supernatural in general, those things are by definition forever outside human understanding, and talking about their existence makes no sense.  When people say that God exists, that's like saying Qxulolol exists, or Gamsufras, or any other random sound.  It's got no cognitive content.

But, it just a easily could be said that these things are beyond our current ability to detect.

Einstein created the cosmological constant to make the math work. For decades, people swore this constant was a fiction. Now, evidence for this constant is being discovered. Perhaps this is a bad analogy. But, it is a fiction that is turning into a reality.

I'm not talking about things that are beyond are ability to detect right now, but things that people claim are forever beyond our understanding.  That's a big part of many kinds of theism.

Also, the cosmological constant is a mathematical construct with a definite nature.  If people at one point thought it didn't exist, but it really does, then they were wrong.  Either way, people knew exactly what they were talking about (in a mathematical sense) when they debated it.

what else can you predict tink? ;)

I have to invoke the spirits first.  ;D  Sometimes they materialize in front of you and tell you things.  Other times, they manifest through voices in your head, and rumors have it that in very rare occasions, they tend to communicate through electronic devices (like in the movie 'white noise').  Odd, isn't it! but true! Boo! I was very skeptical at first but now I am very certain.  The thing is that when you are a medium, you sense it in your being, in your skin, in the smell of the air!

Hey, but I think I am totally off topic  ;D.  Anyway, what do I predict?  I predict a wedding, a European honeymoon, a bouquet which I wish I could catch personally  ;), romantic love, lots of it, a well-furnished house situated in one of the best neighborhoods, a new pet...a dog perhaps  :).

Now for the bad, juicy things, I will have to charge you!  ;) *giggles devilishly* Oh yes, I am totally off topic....sorry Katia!  LOL  ;D

*hugs*

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Flan Princess on September 15, 2008, 05:58:05 PM
I know that, I was just making fun of a certain monotheist religion. My point is, religious texts taken literally are used most often to take away the rights of others, rather then teach lessons through stories.

True, there are scriptural literallists will do these things. But, my point was that not all who adhere to the "certain monotheistic religion" are scriptural literallists. Your earlier post suggested to me that you believed the adherents of that religion were synonymous with literallists.

Posted on: September 16, 2008, 07:49:09 AM

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Quote from: Nephie on September 15, 2008, 06:17:16 PM
I'm not talking about things that are beyond are ability to detect right now, but things that people claim are forever beyond our understanding.  That's a big part of many kinds of theism.

Also, the cosmological constant is a mathematical construct with a definite nature.  If people at one point thought it didn't exist, but it really does, then they were wrong.  Either way, people knew exactly what they were talking about (in a mathematical sense) when they debated it.

I guess my point is that you seemed to be making a factual claim: Religion is delusion and thesists are delusional. When I encounter people making factual claims, I expect them to be able to provide factual proof. Had you said that you believe religion to be a delusion and that you believe theists to be delusional, I would have dropped it.

No one yet has been able to provide proof to me of the idea that theism = delusion. There have been compelling arguments, but not proof. I believe that there is proof of evolution. The evidence provided exceeds compelling arguments. So far, atheists have not provided proof (to me) that G'D does not exist or that the gods do not exist. If they could, I would submit to that reality without question. But, it has to be proof. Fundamentalist theists insist they have proof to support their claims. But to my mind, they do not.

If atheists could prove their claims, this would of course change the details of my religious beliefs. Instead of worshipping Pele and Perkunas, I would worship life and creation themselves. But if atheists did prove their claims, it would not change my religious practice. I would continue to keep the Sabbats, sit zazen, walk the labrynth, and treat people according to the Golden Rule and Great Commandment: with lovingkindness.

I don't understand... by "factual proof" do you mean empirical evidence?  That's just not possible.  There's no physical evidence in the universe that I could point out to absolutely disprove theism.  It's impossible in theory.  The only way to disprove the divine is by showing that it doesn't meet the logical prerequisites for existence.  It's the same with Santa Claus - theoretically impossible for me to disprove with observation and evidence.

Also, what's the difference between saying "I believe x is true" and "X is true"?  Does the second form imply some greater level of certainty, or a higher standard of evidence?  No, they're logically identical - "I believe" is just a way of saying "I accept as true".  You don't need to qualify your convictions with "I believe" - that's just weasel wordage.

I realize that lots of religious folks have a special use for "belief" to describe a proposition they accept as true on faith, but that's just question begging.  By what means does faith arrive at truth, and how can this be verified?

And don't forget... you asked the question whether theists are delusional.   :)

Quote from: Nephie on September 16, 2008, 11:09:12 AM
I don't understand... by "factual proof" do you mean empirical evidence?  That's just not possible.  There's no physical evidence in the universe that I could point out to absolutely disprove theism.  It's impossible in theory.  The only way to disprove the divine is by showing that it doesn't meet the logical prerequisites for existence.  It's the same with Santa Claus - theoretically impossible for me to disprove with observation and evidence.

Also, what's the difference between saying "I believe x is true" and "X is true"?  Does the second form imply some greater level of certainty, or a higher standard of evidence?  No, they're logically identical - "I believe" is just a way of saying "I accept as true".  You don't need to qualify your convictions with "I believe" - that's just weasel wordage.

I realize that lots of religious folks have a special use for "belief" to describe a proposition they accept as true on faith, but that's just question begging.  By what means does faith arrive at truth, and how can this be verified?

And don't forget... you asked the question whether theists are delusional.   :)

I'm guess I'm splitting hairs, but saying something IS true is not logically the same as believing it's true. Belief implies that one is acknowledging the possibility that one is wrong.

Yes, I did ask if theists were delusional. I acknowledge the possibility of this concept. I have not yet been convinced of the facticity of that statement, however.

If someone makes a statement of fact, she either believes her own statement, or she doesn't.  If she doesn't believe it, she's a liar.  If she does, then she acknowledges the possibility of being wrong (by your understanding of the meaning of "belief").

Therefore, I am either lying, or speaking honestly while understanding that I may be mistaken.  QED.

My motivation for being an atheist is that there is no such thing as God.

When I sit down with my family for Christmas dinner, I lead the prayer, and it's a good one. When my Christian friends are in need, I will kneel with them and pray, and I will often sit and read passages from the Bible with them to help bring them comfort.

My motivation for doing this is that it's the right thing to do.

I don't pray. I just talk to a person who isn't there. Once you can handle that paradox, you can begin to understand me.

God does not exist. There is no such thing as an immortal soul. The Bible was created by Man. This can't be changed. This isn't something that I'm saying as some kind of statement. It's not a philosophy or a worldview. It just happens to be a fact.

Posted on: October 17, 2008, 01:13:41 am

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Quote from: Leiandra on September 13, 2008, 07:03:04 PM
There's a saying... "there are no atheists in a foxhole",

And it's wrong. My life actually has been in danger a few times, and there's one important, little thing I observed about it: when you have realized that, if you don't do something, you're going to be smashed into a million pieces, you are NOT panicking or praying. Your hearing gets really muffled, time slows down a bit, and you kinda casually observe your body doing things all on its own.

And no, I don't pray during times of crisis. Believe me, girlfriend, I've been through a few of them. It just doesn't materialize. I don't believe in selfish love. I don't believe in selfish faith, either. One is just as repulsive as the other. I'm one of those old-fashioned jerks who still believe in things like honor, duty and sacrifice on behalf of others. You remember those? Call on them when you're in trouble. They'll never steer you wrong.

 Hi well I am not atheist but I on the other hand will not touch on the subject of religion, to volatile and contradictory. I am a student in search of the wisdom of the infinite potentialies or the universal forces.

QuoteI am saying that I believe that the "evidence" is there. Whether generic you sees it or not is something else. But, you have to understand I've had "voices" and such all of my life (quick quick someone call a shrink!), so the concept of "life as normal" isn't very "normal" to me. That said I personally find there to be evidence out there, but I do think most if not all of that can be "discarded" if one wishes. So it ends up, if you don't want to see it, there isn't evidence and (generic) you get to be justified, an if you do see evidence, well, (generic) you still gets to be justified. *shrug* It isn't my plan.
Kimberly

Kim, if you wish, please present the new topic if you would, What we have discussed on different occasions  is a subject that does not appear to die easy which indicates to me that there is interest still in Spirituality and Metaphysics on this board. Can't see why we can not give it another go and see what falls out of the hat. Thank you.

parapsychology to be fake, nor metaphysics?

Spirit the essence of all that is.

Spirit, it is the fabric of creation from all the way back from original thought, or the word spoken in the ether of creation as Albert Einstein has has once quoted Reality? now there is an perplexing conundrum, I think it's conception is as varied as each human being perceives it. Reality is about as multifarious as Truth, where we can only perceive only bits and pieces of it in the physical world and again those bits differ greatly from one individual to an other.

This reality is not really what it appears to be, in the sense of being solid or concrete, it is more made of is different densities in the grids of the Holographic universe, a very well designed hologram.

Check out my Blog, Cindy's Ramblings Blog

I call myself an atheist because I think it extremely unlikely that there is a god, and, if there turns out to be a god, I really really really really hate that f@cker.  Occasionally, I do pray, though, when I see some horrible injustice or the like and no god doing anything about it.  It usually goes something like this:  "God, if you're there, f@ck you, you arrogant prick!"

To each his/her own. I have my beliefs, but not necessarily the same as anyone else's. If it resonates with you, take it, if not, leave it. My beliefs are not in the God that the preachers preach about in their sermons. I cut out of going to the church of men as soon as I was old to make that decision. Before I could start building up such a hatred which would be more destructive to myself then to the church it's leaders, followers and those who called themselves the administrators of the law of the church, *Bible thumpers.*

My church as I have mentioned before is nature and it's denizens are my congregation. The elements of nature is the oneness that all living things on the mother is contained within. Ancient Wiccan/native American tradition. Fearing what is different for folks like us would be like fearing ourselves. I have respect for the unknown but I do not fear it. I fear more of the unknown elements in this reality which is even more unpredictable then the realms of the unknown. Evil dwells in the mind of men and is manifested from the mind of men. It is those who do not understand, the ignorant, these are the ones who are most vulnerable to the very elements of nature around them, the superstitious who fear their own shadow, so they try to beat or kill what they don't understand. Atheist?

Cindy

Quote from: glendagladwitch on October 17, 2008, 08:04:46 AM
Occasionally, I do pray, though, when I see some horrible injustice or the like and no god doing anything about it.

Meaning no offense, but what makes you think anything is obligated to actually do anything?

I am a very firm believer in credit where credit is due. As such, how are you so sure that those experiencing such injustice have not arranged for such so as to experience and grow from such experiences? I ask this odd question because I myself know(or believe if you prefer) that I have arranged for hurtful lives to experience.

If you wish another perspective, do (generic) you coddle a child every time they fall? Do you (again generic) rush to their side every time they cry? .... Such is an imperfect and flawed human explanation to attempt to shed understanding for a context that is vastly different from this. Simply, you are in no danger, and yes lives hurt. Grow from this.

My perspective, offered in love.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on October 17, 2008, 08:04:46 AM
I call myself an atheist because I think it extremely unlikely that there is a god, and, if there turns out to be a god, I really really really really hate that f@cker.  Occasionally, I do pray, though, when I see some horrible injustice or the like and no god doing anything about it.  It usually goes something like this:  "God, if you're there, f@ck you, you arrogant prick!"

How do you know God didn't cause the problem in the first place?  God might exist, and just be an evil SOB.  All the standard arguments for monotheism can be just as easily applied to an evil God.  Take Aquinas' five proofs... they say nothing about morality.

Posted on: October 17, 2008, 01:03:36 pm

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I'd be more afraid of pissing off an evil God than a good one, myself.

Quote from: Kimberly on October 17, 2008, 09:53:55 AM
If you wish another perspective, do (generic) you coddle a child every time they fall? Do you (again generic) rush to their side every time they cry?

If I had the power to make the world into a place where no child ever fell or felt like crying, I would do it.  If there is a god with that kind of power, it's not doing anything but torturing us.  And if it does not have that kind of power, why should I worship it?

There are no atheists in a fox hole?  I'm pretty sure that foxes don't believe in god.

;)

I don't think that I'll ever change my mind about the god thing.  I honestly see no evidence to support my belief. I know that others do though and I can accept their decision. I try my best to support them in their beliefs because it is important to me.

Cindi

I do admire nature though.  It is fascinating.

Cindi

Quote from: glendagladwitch on October 17, 2008, 09:26:56 PM

Quote from: Kimberly on October 17, 2008, 09:53:55 AM
If you wish another perspective, do (generic) you coddle a child every time they fall? Do you (again generic) rush to their side every time they cry?

If I had the power to make the world into a place where no child ever fell or felt like crying, I would do it.  If there is a god with that kind of power, it's not doing anything but torturing us.  And if it does not have that kind of power, why should I worship it?

I respect that point of view deeply, I truly do. It is also a frame of mind I shared previously, an indeed some of my vocalization of such thoughts can still be found here as far as I know. Yet, somewhere in transition I resolved to throw away all of the façades, all of the lies all of the crap that life had accumulated. I wanted rock bottom truth. ^*shrug* I ended up with a different perspective, among other things. Technically, I had to inch closer to "truth" because 1. It is too complicated for this context. An 2. it hurts like hell. Actually, no, hell didn't hurt. ... My truth is my own but I will say it has involved a lot of tears.


I fear I really can't, or rather am not willing, to say much else in public. (I invite PMs if it is wanted. Perhaps I would speak frankly.) I will say this however, yes it seems horrid on the surface but what is and what appears tends to differ, and I would suppose that we here should well understand that point, that appearances are deceiving that matter. But while I do not profess to know the why of every event, I will say what I know of the being oft called "GOD" says that "he" is worthy of the love I have for "him", an really, quite a lot more.

Just to note, I do not think worship is what is wanted. Just believe in something, that seems to be what is wanted.

If it helps, I do not think it is as bad as it looks.

^*curtsy*
Namaste.

Hi Kimberly, I would be interested in discussing this topic further, as it is pretty well a continuation of our last messagings we had a while back. I am aware that there are some here who will think this kind of subject mater kind of for the birds. So I am accustomed to having people think I am for the birds. I like birds anyway.

But I am also know a few others here who are interested in this type of topic. I have shared a few posts with them then we just drifted away in our own individual directions. Sharing by PM is fine but that also dies off after a time. I would like to have a place, maybe start a thread, or use my blog. A place where we can share without being harassed. Using PM or even email is probably a good idea as well for comparing notes.

Cindy 

Just in case the thread slipped under the covers before anyone noticed,
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,45767.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,45767.0.html)
An yes, birds are neat (=

Anybody here? Hey, Ol' Man, You home tonight? Can you spare a minute? It's about time we had a little talk. I know I'm a pretty evil fella. Killed people in the war and got drunk and chewed up municipal property and the like. I know I got no call to ask for much but even so, you gotta admit, you ain't dealt me no cards in a long time. It's beginnin' to look like you got things fixed so I can't never win out. Inside, outside, all 'em rules and regulations and bosses. You made me like I am. Just where am I supposed to fit in? Ol' Man, I gotta tell ya. I started out pretty strong and fast. But it's beginnin' to get to me. When does it end? What do ya got in mind for me? What do I do now? All right. All right. (He kneels on his knees and cups his hands in prayer.) On my knees, askin'. (pause) Yeah, that's what I thought. I guess I'm pretty tough to deal with, huh? A hard case. I guess I gotta find my own way.

Cool Hand Luke, final speech by Newman

Hi Kimberly, thank you for the thread.  Visited the thread and left a small introductory post.

Have a wonderful day, and now to return this thread back to it's original topic.

Cindy