Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I just came across a thread about this in the FAQ area... Someone had asked if it's possible for an MTF Transsexual to like their penis.

Some pretty rigid definition of what a transsexual is was given along with the answer 'no it's not possible'.. and the topic was closed... which annoyed me I must say.

Here's the definition for Transsexual that was given:

Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Some other definitions were also posted:

Post-Ops: Transsexuals who have had surgical procedures to make their body as congruent as possible with their preferred sex. For MTF transsexuals this is generally considered to be after Genital surgery (GRS, orchiectomy, and/or penectomy), for FTM transsexuals it is generally considered to be after top surgery.

Pre-ops: Transsexuals who desire to to make their body as congruent as possible with their preferred sex, but have not yet had the surgical procedures for whatever reason.

Crossdresser: a person wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally no sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

->-bleeped-<-: a person who wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally a strong sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

So I wonder then, what would (for example) someone who feels they are a "girl in a guy's body" and doesn't hate their body (or certain parts of it anyway) be called? ..It seems to me that some people just don't care a whole lot about how their body looks, or even how they appear to others.. and that who they are inside is all that really matters to them.

Let's say it's a "girl in a guys body" that wants to change everything but the penis.. and feels that she'd even prefer to have the penis to a vagina? ... It seems to me that there are even some genetic girls out there that would rather have a penis but don't want to look like or be thought of as men (if you disagree, fine, but you can't speak for everyone.. there's many different sorts of people out there).  Also, for a "girl in a guys body" who has always had a penis, it doesn't seem unlikely that such a person could be used to having it (maybe even like having it) and maybe not feel the need for expensive surgery, and the risks that go with that.

In the definition that was given for transsexual it even says "generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments." ...And, aren't we all (and the so called experts) still learning about all this stuff?  Isn't the way of thinking about all this transgender stuff still evolving?  Who is anyone to really say exactly what being a transsexual is for everyone?  It's obvious we're not all the same.. I don't think it can be defined so easily.  I think that even with the current categories of "Transgender" and their 'definitions', not all of us fit so perfectly into one of these 'molds'.

So, I think that in situations where you might need to use a specific label for the people in those examples I gave, "Non-Op transsexual" works fine for transsexuals who either don't want to, or can't have srs. I don't think the term "Transgender" is specific enough when refering to people who feel that way.  Doesn't "Transgender" pretty much apply to anyone who doesn't fit what is currently considered gender norms?  I don't think that "androgyn" works for the people I'm refering to either, and I especially don't think that either "crossdresser" or "->-bleeped-<-" works.


For me, this part of the definition is all that really matters:  "a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other." I don't see 'how much your body bothers you' or 'what you feel you need to do transition wise' as being important to whether or not you are transsexual.  So again, I think that if you feel 'female' or 'male' inside, and that doesn't match the sex of your body.. that's a transsexual, and it doesn't matter how much you hate or even like any part of your body.  How you feel about your body doesn't make you any less female or male.  Here's a quote I came across that I totally agree with: "There is no reason that you can't be TS and like any part of your body. Gender dysphoria and body dysphoria are not exactly the same."  It seems to me that many people have some pretty ancient views on what a 'female' is, and what a 'male' is.. too black and white.  Maybe even some of the people here think a little too black and white about this stuff.

I think one reason I felt strongly enough about this stuff to make this topic is.... I think that having a few categories of "transgender" with pretty rigid definitions does not help the people who don't quite fit, at all, and it can cause more confusion and self doubt for them to deal with.

Anyways, I'm curious what other peoples thoughts are on this.  Perhaps I'm missing something here.. maybe some "transgender category" I've not heard about that better suits people as I described in those examples... or whatever.

The trouble with that is it's a case of the old adage:

You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

There will never be a point where everyone will be totally happy with a definition of a given thing, because it doesn't fit them 100%. No definition given ever will, for every person, because every person is unique, with individual thoughts, feelings and ideas.

The alternative is to have several thousand definitions of what constitutes the various aspects of transgender, gender identity and transsexuality, to the point where it becomes "A transgender disorder only in relation to person X, where they feel <this way>, and <this way>, and <this way>"

That would be even more confusing, in my opinion, than having a few, well defined examples that a person could look at and say "well I don't exactly feel that way, but it's near enough that I think that's the one I'm going with... clear in the knowledge that within this framework, I don't exactly fit this model, but neither does everyone else. It's the law of averages and percentages.

If 95% of people feel the definition fits them, should it be scrapped in order to further define that definition, and add more sub-divisions for the 5% that do not?

Particularly in relation to this site, where if that practice was applied, the forum would have a scroll of several miles and about five hundred different boards, child-boards, grandchild boards etc.... all with one or two people feeling sufficiently happy with the definition to post anything in.

It just isn't feasible, in my opinion, to go beyond the definitions already expressed by Susan. I understand what you're saying about a few people who won't fit into the categories, but no matter how many minute variations there are to a definition there will always be a few people who don't exactly fit into them. There isn't really anything we can do about that other than to have a definition for every single person.

But I do think that the definitions here do help the vast majority of people who do identify with them (reasonably well, if not perfectly). And it makes things far less confusing than having to search through vast swathes of definitions in order to find one that exactly matches.

Hello, Dark,

Personally, I think I understand and accept pretty much all of your points. However, in terms of the board this topic seems to rouse more animosity when it comes up than causing intelligent and respectful discussion. As I recall, that was why the topic was closed.

People have very firm notions about definition and acceptance. The definitions used at this board can be found here (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Transgender) and they pretty well define what people here chat about.

Given levels of animosity and the fact we have this argument about every three months or so I would imagine that we can expect a similar set of taking-sides to occur in answer to your post. So, please be prepared for that and don't take the responses any more personally than they actually are. Identity and who is "allowed" within particular identities is of the utmost importance to many.

Nichole

Well Dark, just how rigid are those definitions? Enough to hang your hat on?

What?

*Stealth falls off her chair laffing*

Dark, the very reasons you're discussing are exactly why I choose to stay out of those discussions about what is a "transsexual" and what makes a "man" or a "woman."  Those kinds of conversations only seek to divide our community and make us each bitter towards our brothers and sisters, and that doesn't help our struggle towards equality within the society.  IMO, what makes someone say they are TG or TS is up to the individual.  Personally, I'm a woman with a transgendered past.  I have never identified as transsexual, nor will I ever identify that way.  The terms "transgendered" and "woman" fit me, but they might not fit you.  What terms someone uses are completely up to them, and nobody has the right to say otherwise.  End of discussion.

If someone says they are TS or TG and likes their "penis" then that is their decision and everyone else needs to butt out because it's not their business to say otherwise.  Each of us has the right to identify as we please, and if someone says otherwise then that person is violating your right to self identify.

As a side, and for perspective, some people would say I'm not really TS because I'm only having an Orchiectomy and not getting full SRS; I have my reasons and I've already made them clear on this board before.  Personally, I like my clitoris (Note: It's not a "penis" for me, it's a clitoris), but I get ridiculed for that by my brothers and sisters?  How is that different from transphobia aimed at us by cis-gendered people?

I have never identified as transsexual, as I said, and I'm still a woman, that doesn't ever change.  I've had people tell me I'm not really TS because I won't get SRS; that I'm not a woman until and unless I have a vagina.  That I'm not a lesbian because I don't have a vagina.  Anyone who questions my identity can sod off!  I have neither the time nor the patience to deal with your intolerance or hatred.

Jenn

Don't forget the secret handshake and the plastic decoder ring, my feisty little sis.

I'm completely with you on this one OP.

We FTM's are constantly bombarded with phrases simliar to "it's not the penis that makes the man," but maybe that's just because our bottom surgery options suck.  Either way, if not having a penis (and having no plans to surgically obtain something penis-like) does not make me any less of a man, then why would your having a penis (and having no plans to surgically remove it) make you any less of a woman?  I see a serious double standard here, folks.  What gives??

Pretty much, I'd love my penis, so if a transgirl loves her penis, I understand how she feels. She isn't any less of a woman for liking her anatomy. :P Gender does not rely on genitalia... we all know that. What's between her ears does not have to match what's between her legs.

Plus, I kind of think "chicks with dicks" are pretty sexy. I try not to use the phrase, because it offends a lot of transwomen. However, if I was with a transwoman who DID NOT like her penis, I wouldn't try to get her to "use" it. Never would I do that... I respect her boundaries as much as I hope she'll respect mine.

Also... an MtF who likes her penis can be a transsexual. If she's taking hormones to alter her secondary sexual characteristics, she's TS.

I'm a MtF TS who is not opting for SRS, but is on HRT.  I consider myself transsexual.  I feel that my penis does not hinder me in any way for passing as a woman nor does it ruin the options for sex (in fact, men who are interested in a TS in the first place expect that organ!)

It does get depressing when other transsexuals who are supposed to be your support bring you down into thinking you're just some wannabe who doesn't fit all the criteria and therefore aren't really TS.  It's such a community divide like someone said above when really we should all be accepting of our gender identities, whether they follow the book or not.

I am not the kind of girl who looks down and screams in horror at what she sees in her pants.  I see it as a part of who I am.  I would much rather cry about having a flat chest!  Lol.

Quote from: fae_reborn on September 15, 2008, 11:39:41 AM
...  I've had people tell me I'm not really TS because I won't get SRS; that I'm not a woman until and unless I have a vagina.  That I'm not a lesbian because I don't have a vagina.  Anyone who questions my identity can sod off!  I have neither the time nor the patience to deal with your intolerance or hatred.

Jenn

:) Dearest Jenn, is that the British "sod off?" or one that is used primarily in the part of New York you are from? :laugh:

I think you've been told about holding back on your opinions, haven't you? Sweetie, you need to be more up-front about how you feel!! :icon_hug:

Nichole

cool, it's nice to see others who feel more like I do about this.

And I hope that this discussion doesn't turn into some kind of a fight.. I don't see why it would anyways.  Reading through that other topic that was closed... it seemed that people were just stating their opinions in a way that wasn't hostile.

As for the definitions, I'm actually OK with that one for transsexual that was given as it did say "generally".... And I too don't think there needs to be an extremely long list of areas for everyone on the forum who doesn't quite perfectly fit one of the current ones.  If it sounded like I was suggesting that, I didn't mean to.  I just didn't like how transsexuals who either like, or don't care enough about their penis to get srs weren't included in the transsexual category (and I explained why I feel that way).

Quote from: Mister on September 15, 2008, 12:20:16 PM
I'm completely with you on this one OP.

We FTM's are constantly bombarded with phrases simliar to "it's not the penis that makes the man," but maybe that's just because our bottom surgery options suck.  Either way, if not having a penis (and having no plans to surgically obtain something penis-like) does not make me any less of a man, then why would your having a penis (and having no plans to surgically remove it) make you any less of a woman?  I see a serious double standard here, folks.  What gives??

It is a double standard, however the two genital sets don't seem to be that analogous in terms of TSism. It's the difference between the presence of something and the lack of something. A penis is to a woman as tits are to a man.
Most ftms' bottom dysphoria appears to be more about 'the lack of' rather than 'the presence of'.
Just an observation there.

I do get why someone wouldn't desire to have major invasive surgery that reroutes one's piss and everything. Bottom surgery is a big deal.

Anyhow, these are the terms and definitions as relates to this site:

Quote from: Susan on June 17, 2007, 10:06:47 PM

Community Definitions:

Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and ->-bleeped-<-s.

Androgyne: An androgynous person

Androgynous: Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior.

Crossdresser: a person wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally no sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

Drag kings: performers, usually gay women or transgendered men - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the male gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag kings often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Drag queens: performers, usually gay men or transgendered women - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the female gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag queens often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Intersexual: a person born with the full or partial sex organs of both sexes; with underdeveloped or ambiguous sex organs; a sex chromosome karyotype other than XX or XY; or sex hormone receptor problems which prevent normal absorption of Estrogen or Androgens. Intersexual persons may seek to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Significant other: for the purpose of this site, someone close to a person who is transgender. This may be a mother, father, son, daughter, sister, brother, family member, husband, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, or friend.

Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

->-bleeped-<-: a person who wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally a strong sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

Other terms:

Post-Ops: Transsexuals who have had surgical procedures to make their body as congruent as possible with their preferred sex. For MTF transsexuals this is generally considered to be after Genital surgery (GRS, orchiectomy, and/or penectomy), for FTM transsexuals it is generally considered to be after top surgery.

Pre-ops: Transsexuals who desire to to make their body as congruent as possible with their preferred sex, but have not yet had the surgical procedures for whatever reason.

This is not intended to be a glossary of all tg related terms. This just defines the make-up of the community on this site.

 

Non-op is a viable option. For me personally, it's more important to live as my gender on a social level than to have physical modification. Really, whatever works for each person. In addition, as Nero said above, bottom surgery is invasive, can have complications, and is expensive. Not everyone has the financial resources to afford surgery. Living full time without surgery also used to be called transgenderist, but not many people seem to use that term these days.

Zythyra

How to be Transsexual is up to the individual.  What you are quoting sounds clinical.  Many Transsexual do not wish to have SRS, or can not afford it right now.  I personally want and need to have SRS.  But does that make me more Trans than my sister Jenn.  No frigging way.  Whether you have SRS or not is you choice.  No one else.

Yes SOC stated those definitions as guidelines for surgery, but if you are not having surgery then they don't apply.  But changing your gender on documents can be a challenge without some kind of surgery.  I am sure that a lot of our sisters and brothers would agree that bottom surgery is optional.

Transsexuals come in all forms of shapes, sizes, and choices.  Until bottom surgery is covered and no longer elective, many Transpeople will make the choice as to whether or not to have surgery.  One is still Transsexual regardless of someone elses definitions.

Janet

Until there is a reasonable opportunity for the guys to have "bottom surgery" then about 50% of all transsexuals will not have surgery.

It's odd how in so many of these conversations the guys get left out of the chat. It's truly nice to see as many as have chime in. Sometimes I wonder if the only transsexuals we talk about when we make our definitions aren't MTF. We are always at the forefront of the conversation on boards. Odd how in TS hangouts and groups at LBGT and such there are often more men by a long-shot than there are women.

Anyhow, as better surgeries, or at least some real surgical progress is made for the guys I can certainly understand why any guy would decline something that's going to attach something less than a penis, or more, to him.

Unlike in the construction trade it's evidently easier and less-expensive to "go down" rather than "go up" when it comes to TS surgery!! >:D

Nikki

Quote from: Nichole on September 15, 2008, 04:23:16 PM
:) Dearest Jenn, is that the British "sod off?" or one that is used primarily in the part of New York you are from? :laugh:

I think you've been told about holding back on your opinions, haven't you? Sweetie, you need to be more up-front about how you feel!! :icon_hug:

Nichole

Yes sister, it's the British version.  :laugh:

I know I need to be more up-front, I try. :icon_hug:

Quote from: Elwood on September 15, 2008, 12:48:31 PM
Plus, I kind of think "chicks with dicks" are pretty sexy. I try not to use the phrase, because it offends a lot of transwomen.

*holds the bridge of her nose and takes a deep breath* Elwood, not to be a bitch but please watch your words.  Women like myself don't see it as a "dick," that phrase is really offensive to a lot of us, especially me!

Quote from: Mister on September 15, 2008, 12:20:16 PM
We FTM's are constantly bombarded with phrases similar to "it's not the penis that makes the man," but maybe that's just because our bottom surgery options suck.  Either way, if not having a penis (and having no plans to surgically obtain something penis-like) does not make me any less of a man, then why would your having a penis (and having no plans to surgically remove it) make you any less of a woman?  I see a serious double standard here, folks.  What gives??

Totally agree Mister, it's a huge double standard.  I'm sorry surgical options for you guys aren't that great.  It's really hard being TG in the first place, why make it worse by fighting each other over the definitions?

Quote from: Susan on June 17, 2007, 10:06:47 PM
Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments. (Emphasis Added)

Seems to me that "as congruent as possible" also includes those who don't undergo complete SRS, and either opt for an Orchiectomy (in the case of MTF) or remain non-op.  So why the animosity and hate towards those who don't get SRS?!?!?!  >:(

Jenn

I total agree, Jenn

Janet

This thread is the continuation of that other similar topic which Susan locked a while ago.  If any of the administrators decides to unlock it, it will be so, but for now it is locked.

tink :icon_chick: