Susan's Place Transgender Resources

It's an issue that again gets on my nerves, but I want to try to understand it.

Before I start, I see this stuff both online and offline. This is NOT directed to anyone specific here.

Do guys do this to help with dysphoria? To help with passing? Or is it driven by fear? All I know is that it is one of the things that really gets on my nerves. The "tough guy" attitude is particularly irritating. Some guys will try to always "one up" me. I don't know if it's because I pass or if it is my calm demeanor, but they like to pick a bone with me about something. There's times where a guy will start an argument with me just so he can have an excuse to dominate me verbally. I honestly can't tell if it is from stress, insecurity, or PMS.

I hear a lot of guys talk about fighting. How "a real man's got to defend himself." I don't see manhood as a symbol of violence. I am no less of a man for deciding to use my brain instead of brawn. If someone is going to pick a fight with me, I am going to avoid them. What do a lot of guys say to me? That I'm a wimp and I can't handle it. Avoiding a confrontation isn't "running away," it's being safe. I'm 18 years old. I get into a fight and I can land myself a night in jail. Is proving my manhood worth a light criminal record? I don't think so.

Then there's the fact that a lot of guys pretend not to have emotion. I already talked about this example in another thread, but I'll mention it again; I was at a transgroup and the facilitator of the group asked what we wanted to do next meeting. I said, "Why don't we check-in?" Checking-in is talking about how you're doing, what's on your mind, questions you have... Well, the one of the guys said, "Talk about feelings?" They all awkwardly looked at eachother, seizing the moment to try to stick out their chests and shake off and vulnerability they may have had. I seriously was pissed... As FtMs, we know what it is like to be in a woman's body, have estrogen, live that life; we are not emotionless based on gender. Emotion is not a gender thing. It's a human thing.

Then there's guys comparing body type. I find this terribly offensive. "I have such big hands" or "I'm so tall" and all of that stuff. Then there's the handful of small short guys who awkwardly stand in silence because they don't want to talk about their "feelings." It's a very unhealthy environment. I know guys need to give themselves a pat on the back, but honestly, they need a little more tact. It's a very sensitive issue, and because we're all "manly men" no one's going to say anything about it.

Then there's percieved stereotypes of masculinity. Toughness, dominance, anger, callousness, monotonous, etc. I hear so many guys lower their voice and it just ends up sounding like they're got something in their throat. I just don't get it. Yesterday with my therapist, I spoke with my natural voice, which is quite feminine when I get excited (and I was excited to see him). He did not think me any less trans or male. I admit it; I tone my voice down a little to help pass. But there's a point where it's too much and sounds ridiculous... And I don't know why guys can't hear themselves.

Again with the tough guy attitude. Guys like to tell me "how it is." In the end, it turns out to be "how they think it is," but they have to act like they're right, because of that whole male superiority thing. Because they see other men do it, they feel like they also have got to squash others to look bigger or better. I just don't understand it, and it really gets on my nerves. My condition; being a man in a woman's body, does not make me feel the need to be overly masculine or compensating. I am just me, dealing with the confusion of being in this body. I don't see how being an alpha male would help anyone who is in this situation.

Which leads to another point; overpacking. I just don't get it. Some guys pack way too much (with like a 6 inch flaccid) and they're convinced that's the "appropriate size" for them. "If I was born male, I would be this well hung." Does it even really matter? I was hesitant to purchase the 3.5 because I was worried it would be over the top. I happen to know the men in my family are well endowed and yet I was still conscious. I don't know if anyone else is willing to see this, but a lot of guys go completely over the top.

Then there's the most annoying; fabrication. "I was 2 years old and wanted a penis." Please. A little kid doesn't even know what that is, and if they saw their brother's, it wasn't very prominent and they likely wouldn't even understand the difference. I hear guys tell stories that are way over exaggerated again and again in an attempt to make their transhood seem more "valid." I told my therapist that I didn't have a prominent male questioning until I was around 8-10 years old, and that I hadn't had a strong male identity until I was well into my teen years. That didn't make me any less trans; it just made me a later onset. So with everyone saying they've known since birth; you're only lying to yourselves. Some people, or rather, most people, live their lives as a lie, or at least partially. I for one am a firm believer that we ought to be honest with ourselves. A true man, that strong, "manly man" who can take anything, would face the truth, even though it might sting.

So I get called weak all the time. People say, "You make threads like this to boost your manliness because you're insecure." You can believe that. I personally made the thread because I was irritated by a particular FtM I recently observed... I wanted him to be himself because his mask was slipping and it didn't look good at all. I sometimes think guys have these masks on and don't realize it, so I'm bringing the issue to the forefront.

I think some of it may be overcompensating, but I also think some of it may be... how do I put this?  Ignorance, I guess, combined with the more or less desperate desire to "really"* be a man.

Or put it this way.  They're doing these things because "that's what men do."  The stereotypes get shoved in everybody's faces constantly.  Men are this way, men are that way, and I think a lot of transguys feel that they just have to try and do all this stuff, because if they're going to be a man, this stuff is what men do, so they need to learn to do it all.  Men look a certain way, so you take hormones and get surgery.  Men act a certain way, so you put on an act, and if you do it all, just right, you're a real boy now.  Otherwise, if you do something that's not completely and utterly "manly" somebody is going to notice you're not a "real" man! (And I think a lot of cisguys have problems with this too.)

I try and stay out of that trap as much as I can, but sometimes it is a little hard.  I giggled at somebody the other day, and I had a "OMG, men don't giggle I'm so embarrassed" moment.  And then I rolled my eyes at myself and said "Of course men giggle.  I'm a man, I just giggled, therefore men giggle."  But that's pretty hard to do in the face of the massive pressure to do it "right" so that you'll "really" pass as a guy.

*Disclaimer - I think transmen are just as "real" as any kind of man, but it is hard not to sometimes feel that you're just a big faker, and that nobody believes you're actually a guy.

Surely you jest, Elwood. Why, I knew when I was a one month gestationally!!! tsk-tsk. You late-comers!! :laugh:

Good thread and good points. Just try to keep it on the "I" as that will cause a lot less defensiveness, please. Thank you, Aidan, that was exactly the way I had envisioned it. :)

N~

The guys I know and the ones I've known in life judge each other by two things.  One is the quality of the work they do.  Notice I didn't say, 'what job' but rather, how well they do any job.  And two, by how much they live up to their responsibilities.  Living up to the responsibilities of getting it done, being good to your word, taking care of what you have created is what really seperates men from boys.  Boys posture, pose and pretend.  Men do the Larry the Cable Guy deal, and just 'get 'er done.' They work together but don't depend on other people to do it for them.  They try to solve their own problems rather than waiting for someone else to show up and do it.

Really the highest praise I ever hear from one guy about another is "He's a good worker and very responsible."

So it seems to me.

Quote from: Aidan on September 18, 2008, 12:59:23 PMMen look a certain way, so you take hormones and get surgery.

That's not why I'm transitioning. That's a very shallow reason to transition.

Thanks bro.  Needed that.

I've been struggling myself with the crisis of my emotions and sentitiviaty, my kindness towards others, and such and that it's not percieved as masculine.  Makes me wonder sometimes if I am really ftm. Yet i feel I am I just can't shake the feminine parts.  Partly because I have little control over my emotions and partly because I like being a good person to others and hate when hurt someone.

Quote from: Elwood on September 18, 2008, 01:35:59 PM

Quote from: Aidan on September 18, 2008, 12:59:23 PMMen look a certain way, so you take hormones and get surgery.

That's not why I'm transitioning. That's a very shallow reason to transition.

What's so shallow about wanting to look like a man on the outside, when you feel like a man on the inside?  If you're not trying to look like a man, then why get surgery or take hormones at all?

Quote from: Aiden on September 18, 2008, 01:37:21 PMThanks bro.  Needed that.

I've been struggling myself with the crisis of my emotions and sentitiviaty, my kindness towards others, and such and that it's not percieved as masculine.  Makes me wonder sometimes if I am really ftm. Yet i feel I am I just can't shake the feminine parts.  Partly because I have little control over my emotions and partly because I like being a good person to others and hate when hurt someone.

I'm sick of a lot of guys feeling like they HAVE to be emotionless slimes. Those are the guys all the girls keep b*tching about and saying they hate... So why are we trying to pull that off? Oh, that's right. SOME girls like "bad" guys. But why strive to be the "bad" guy? It's much easier to be a "normal" guy. To be the "good" guy or "bad" guy is an unhealthy extreme. Most importantly, we should strive to be ourselves and trust our instincts instead of trying to make up "manly instincts."

Such as FtMs falsifying male instincts.
"My instincts tell me not to wear a dress."
A dress is man made. Nothing instinctual about not wanting to wear it.
"My instincts tell me to pee standing up."
Your body configuration simply doesn't match up with the idea; wanting to pee standing up is a social thing. I know a lot of men who sit to pee for various reasons, and no, they don't have something "wrong" with them.
"My instincts tell me to be aggressive."
Except you're full of estrogen. If the guy making this claim is on T, he might have some argument. But hormones have nothing to do with instinct. They are chemical messengers and your body perceives the world differently based upon the "language" the messengers speak.

I could understand if an FtM said, "I feel the urge to penetrate," but it's not an "instinct."

The instincts we must pay attention to is our immediate reaction to things. If we feel like crying, or being kind, or laughing, to suppress all of those things to be "manly" is very unhealthy. I've accepted it; I'm in a female body, I won't have T for another two months, I'm not going to pretend I have it already.

Posted on: September 18, 2008, 11:52:48 AM

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Quote from: Aidan on September 18, 2008, 01:50:00 PM

Quote from: Elwood on September 18, 2008, 01:35:59 PM

Quote from: Aidan on September 18, 2008, 12:59:23 PMMen look a certain way, so you take hormones and get surgery.

That's not why I'm transitioning. That's a very shallow reason to transition.

What's so shallow about wanting to look like a man on the outside, when you feel like a man on the inside?  If you're not trying to look like a man, then why get surgery or take hormones at all?

It's shallow to want to put on a man mask and transition ONLY to look like a man.
I am not transitioning to LOOK like a man. I am transitioning to BE a man physically. I want the physical sensations. I want the body chemistry. I want the look and feel, less, but I also want my body's configuration to feel CORRECT. That is much deeper than just wanting to "look like a guy."

Besides, you can question my mindset all you wish, but I've got a therapst who says I'll be getting hormones before 2009... so... apparently I am trans so no one needs to question me simply because I am more than the male front.

Whoa there pardner-Elwood. I think you maybe stuck out that chest a bit too far!! I don't think Aidan was saying something made you less or more of a man, or that wanting to feel congruent but also yourself made you ineligible for HRT.

In fact, given what I've been reading of Aidan and his responses I would imagine that he'd be most against calling your personal and individual ways of doing things in to question in any way at all!!   

Try to relax, luv. Everyone is not against you. Don't over-compensate yourself now!! :)

Nikki

O.o

No, I wasn't calling anything about Elwood into question at all!  (If anything, just the opposite.) 

Saying that simply wanting to look like a man is shallow sounded to me like he might have meant that for somebody to just want to look like a man, without some... different, or more complicated reason, meant that they weren't sincere, or real, or shouldn't be transitioning, and I wanted to ask why, and what was so shallow about it?   

While I don't think anybody should make a big life-change like hormones and surgery lightly, I don't think that just wanting to look like a man is a shallow reason at all.  It's simple, certainly, but honestly I find it rather profound.  Seeing in the mirror what you picture in your mind... I wish I could, really.

I think perhaps we're coming at this from different angles, and may have misunderstood one another.  You say you want to BE a man.  I say you ARE a man already, and so am I.  The physical has nothing to do with what you are.  It's important, I won't try and deny that, but even though physically I am 100% female, I am a man now.  Taking hormones and getting surgery would be making me LOOK like a man, it wouldn't be making me BE a man.  That's my take on the subject.  I'm probably biased a bit towards that mindset by the fact that I can't have the surgery and the hormones, so if I based any of my sense of being a man on physical things, I'd be awfully frustrated. 

But I certainly didn't mean anything at all offensive by it, or by this.  I'm just trying to explain my point of view, and find out more about yours.  :)

On thje MTF-side I can attest that being fortunate in the way someone looks, sounds, is received by others is quite the point. It is also quite profound for us. No one wants to seem a poseur, ever.

Nikki

Quote from: Elwood on September 18, 2008, 01:55:06 PM

Quote from: Aiden on September 18, 2008, 01:37:21 PMThanks bro.  Needed that.

I've been struggling myself with the crisis of my emotions and sentitiviaty, my kindness towards others, and such and that it's not percieved as masculine.  Makes me wonder sometimes if I am really ftm. Yet i feel I am I just can't shake the feminine parts.  Partly because I have little control over my emotions and partly because I like being a good person to others and hate when hurt someone.

I'm sick of a lot of guys feeling like they HAVE to be emotionless slimes. Those are the guys all the girls keep b*tching about and saying they hate... So why are we trying to pull that off? Oh, that's right. SOME girls like "bad" guys. But why strive to be the "bad" guy? It's much easier to be a "normal" guy. To be the "good" guy or "bad" guy is an unhealthy extreme. Most importantly, we should strive to be ourselves and trust our instincts instead of trying to make up "manly instincts."

Such as FtMs falsifying male instincts.
"My instincts tell me not to wear a dress."
A dress is man made. Nothing instinctual about not wanting to wear it.
"My instincts tell me to pee standing up."
Your body configuration simply doesn't match up with the idea; wanting to pee standing up is a social thing. I know a lot of men who sit to pee for various reasons, and no, they don't have something "wrong" with them.
"My instincts tell me to be aggressive."
Except you're full of estrogen. If the guy making this claim is on T, he might have some argument. But hormones have nothing to do with instinct. They are chemical messengers and your body perceives the world differently based upon the "language" the messengers speak.

I could understand if an FtM said, "I feel the urge to penetrate," but it's not an "instinct."

The instincts we must pay attention to is our immediate reaction to things. If we feel like crying, or being kind, or laughing, to suppress all of those things to be "manly" is very unhealthy. I've accepted it; I'm in a female body, I won't have T for another two months, I'm not going to pretend I have it already.

What the freck!  No need to sit there and accuse and insult me.  I sit there and say thank you for reminding me of this then you turn around and harp on me on how you hate it when us guys feel presured to be the sterotypical man.  cigendered men feel pressured to be the typical man as well.  My own issues is I'm more emotional than most men or women.  I cry and lose my temper several times a week, least lately have.

And don;t ever accuse me of falsifying anything.  I didn't like dresses as a a child (fact not falsification)
Peeing while standing up  (true desire, not frecking falsification)
I tend to be aggressive, (truth, not falsification)

Jeeze...  I try be nice and thank you and you go and insult me.

What a bunch of stereotypes.  Really.  Most guys are not all macho and agro, and the ones who are never have to pose about it, you know it the second they step into the room. 

Quote from: tekla on September 18, 2008, 03:51:39 PM
What a bunch of stereotypes.  Really.  Most guys are not all macho and agro, and the ones who are never have to pose about it, you know it the second they step into the room. 

I know their not all macho, but even the ones who are not macho I don't see bawling their eyes out all the time.  I've seen many variety of men, but I've never seen a single one of them bawling all the time and unable to control it.

I've seen mtf but thats because they take estrogen and their not men on the inside.  I've started to wonder if i am just completely screwed up.  I don't even see women that often crying as much as I do.

Quote from: Aidan on September 18, 2008, 02:34:51 PMO.o

No, I wasn't calling anything about Elwood into question at all!  (If anything, just the opposite.) 

Saying that simply wanting to look like a man is shallow sounded to me like he might have meant that for somebody to just want to look like a man, without some... different, or more complicated reason, meant that they weren't sincere, or real, or shouldn't be transitioning, and I wanted to ask why, and what was so shallow about it?   

While I don't think anybody should make a big life-change like hormones and surgery lightly, I don't think that just wanting to look like a man is a shallow reason at all.  It's simple, certainly, but honestly I find it rather profound.  Seeing in the mirror what you picture in your mind... I wish I could, really.

I think perhaps we're coming at this from different angles, and may have misunderstood one another.  You say you want to BE a man.  I say you ARE a man already, and so am I.  The physical has nothing to do with what you are.  It's important, I won't try and deny that, but even though physically I am 100% female, I am a man now.  Taking hormones and getting surgery would be making me LOOK like a man, it wouldn't be making me BE a man.  That's my take on the subject.  I'm probably biased a bit towards that mindset by the fact that I can't have the surgery and the hormones, so if I based any of my sense of being a man on physical things, I'd be awfully frustrated. 

But I certainly didn't mean anything at all offensive by it, or by this.  I'm just trying to explain my point of view, and find out more about yours.  :)

It is shallow to transition based only on looks. Does that mean they shouldn't? I don't think so. Personally, that decision isn't up to me. I'd hope a therapist looks out for that person, though, because transition is a permanent decision and shouldn't be made lightly.

I said be a man physically. I've never thought that I wasn't already a man internally, emotionally, etc. But if I was already a man physically, I'd be biologically male and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.  :-\

Posted on: September 18, 2008, 03:16:58 PM

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Quote from: Aiden on September 18, 2008, 03:40:03 PMWhat the freck!  No need to sit there and accuse and insult me.  I sit there and say thank you for reminding me of this then you turn around and harp on me on how you hate it when us guys feel presured to be the sterotypical man.  cigendered men feel pressured to be the typical man as well.  My own issues is I'm more emotional than most men or women.  I cry and lose my temper several times a week, least lately have.

And don;t ever accuse me of falsifying anything.  I didn't like dresses as a a child (fact not falsification)
Peeing while standing up  (true desire, not frecking falsification)
I tend to be aggressive, (truth, not falsification)

Jeeze...  I try be nice and thank you and you go and insult me.

How did I insult you? I was talking in general. You're being oversensitive now.

The part that a lot of FtMs falsify is saying, "I don't like dresses, I want to pee standing up, and I'm aggressive BECAUSE I'm a man," but those aren't the reasons. They're lying to themselves about WHY they do these things... and if you consider that statement an insult, you might want to ask yourself why it's so insulting to you.

Posted on: September 18, 2008, 03:19:07 PM

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Quote from: Aiden on September 18, 2008, 03:58:23 PMI've started to wonder if i am just completely screwed up.

It's called estrogen, sir. ;D Sure, you may cry or hurt more than other female-bodied people, but maybe that's because of your environment (your experiences, household, situation, etc.) Or maybe you're overtired and need more rest. Whatever it is, you're not screwed up. Crying doesn't hurt anyone. It helps you release tension. There's nothing bad about it unless you're crying so much you don't eat or sleep.

Geh... sorry...  I know took it personally when shouldn't of. 

And yeh your right Dan.   Haven't been sleeping well either, but not because of crying.

Quote from: Aiden on September 18, 2008, 05:26:04 PMGeh... sorry...  I know took it personally when shouldn't of. 

And yeh your right Dan.   Haven't been sleeping well either, but not because of crying.

Sleep well, eat well, drink a lot of water.  :P Exercise a little if you have the time. All of these things should help out.

Yeh, unfortunantly I've been snapping at my friends a lot in last few months as well to point it's been effecting them :(  and their generally accepting of me being ftm.  Least some are.

That's definitely a bummer... Up here I have no close friends. I don't trust anyone enough to tell them my secret. It's scary.

Mine kinda had to know since they were friends of mine long before I came out to myself much less them.  They have been helpful, have called me by Aiden or least try to.

Unfortunately I feel much like a child, because I tend to look for nurturing due to not having had it much growing up.  Makes me feel like I'm a boy on the inside rather than a man.

My friends in Vista know. But they're 500 miles away. I wish at least one of them was here to be with me while I transition... It's a really lonely transition.  :'(

I kind of want nurturing too right now. And aren't you 18 like me? We're boys. I mean, I use the word man a lot, but we're really still quite young. It's okay to feel like a boy. If you're older, well, you know what they say; men never grow up and all that jazz.

I'm 22 going on 23 next month

Quote from: Aiden on September 18, 2008, 06:01:33 PMI'm 22 going on 23 next month

That's still young enough to be considered... well, not necessarily "OMG I'M ALMOST AS MANLY AS CHUCK NORRIS."

Quote from: Aiden on September 18, 2008, 03:58:23 PM

I know their not all macho, but even the ones who are not macho I don't see bawling their eyes out all the time.  I've seen many variety of men, but I've never seen a single one of them bawling all the time and unable to control it.

I've seen mtf but thats because they take estrogen and their not men on the inside.  I've started to wonder if i am just completely screwed up.  I don't even see women that often crying as much as I do.

I cry a lot too, i am a ton of stressed out and it's a peaceful way to exhaust the emotions and get endorphins running through my system. I'm nervous about what will happen when I start T, I hear some guys say they can't cry anymore. I hope that's psychosomatic.

As far as the other thing about getting insulted... that does get tiring, doesn't it.

Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 18, 2008, 06:29:20 PMAs far as the other thing about getting insulted... that does get tiring, doesn't it.

Then you should misinterpret what people write less often. :]

Quote from: Aiden on September 18, 2008, 03:40:03 PM

What the freck!  No need to sit there and accuse and insult me.  I sit there and say thank you for reminding me of this then you turn around and harp on me on how you hate it when us guys feel presured to be the sterotypical man.  cigendered men feel pressured to be the typical man as well.  My own issues is I'm more emotional than most men or women.  I cry and lose my temper several times a week, least lately have.

And don;t ever accuse me of falsifying anything.  I didn't like dresses as a a child (fact not falsification)
Peeing while standing up  (true desire, not frecking falsification)
I tend to be aggressive, (truth, not falsification)

Jeeze...  I try be nice and thank you and you go and insult me.

The Amygdala and Limbic system have to do with aggression and we know there are studies comparing Transsexual people's brains with those of cismale and cisfemale... tends to be that Transitioning folk's brains are far more similar to those of the gender we're (becoming/bringing out in a physical sense, depending on your feelings). What is the scientific seat of intuition, and do we really need to quibble over desire versus instinct? That's a philosophical debate that really seems unnecessary.

And yeah the insulting bit, it gets tired to come to a Support Site just to get blasted.

Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 18, 2008, 06:55:01 PMThe Amygdala and Limbic system have to do with aggression and we know there are studies comparing Transsexual people's brains with those of cismale and cisfemale... tends to be that Transitioning folk's brains are far more similar to those of the gender we're (becoming/bringing out in a physical sense, depending on your feelings). What is the scientific seat of intuition, and do we really need to quibble over desire versus instinct? That's a philosophical debate that really seems unnecessary.

This theory has yet to be proven.

Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 18, 2008, 06:55:01 PMAnd yeah the insulting bit, it gets tired to come to a Support Site just to get blasted.

If you provoke someone, they're not going to lay back and take your squabble.

I'm just reading over what Aiden and Dan said about being or feeling like a boy. You guys are young enough that you might be able to go through a boy-to-man process, even if it's unconventional and somewhat delayed. Seems to me that it's perfectly normal for a twentysomething transguy to still feel like a boy in many ways.

On the other hand, a person can be much older than late teens/early twenties and still feel like a boy. I sure as heck do, and I generally refer to myself as a guy or a boy rather than a man. For a number of reasons, I've always felt that at least a part of me was perpetually frozen at thirteen. Considering my biological age and how long I've felt this way, I've probably been warped for life by this perception. Anyway, I honestly don't see myself as a man, and I'm not sure that I ever will. I'll have to wait and see.

I do, however, live by the creed of personal responsibility and, in most respects, I live as an adult.

I'm not always comfortable with these apparent contradictions, but they're what I have to work with.

Dan, many of the tough-guy effects that you're seeing are undoubtedly due to insecurity and essentialism, but let's go back to that "boy" concept again. If you're mostly talking about transmen who are in transition or transmen who haven't been post-transition for very long, think of them as still going through their boy phase. A lot of cisgender boys and young men go through similar phases of one-upmanship, hypermasculinity, and proving themselves--proving themselves to other guys and also to themselves. They are still situating themselves in (for lack of a better term) male society and society in general. I know you get tired of the "posing" that some transmen seem to do, and I definitely hear where you're coming from. It can be maddening.

But try to cut them a break, at least mentally. Some of them are probably trying to compensate for a boyhood that they never had, and most of them are probably still figuring out where they fit in the world. Maybe they'll settle down a bit later as they figure things out. Maybe not. But you're you and they're they. You might never see eye to eye. At least, that's my take on it.

If people hassle you because they don't think you're masculine enough or if they say that you're not a real man, then maybe that's all part of the boy culture that they're indulging in. Of course, that doesn't make it RIGHT...all you can do is stand your ground, be your own man, and lead by example--and air your views as persuasively as possible.

Arch, I think you hit the nail on the head. There's intense social pressure on boys to prove themselves as men to the world at large by acting out exaggerated pantomimes of masculinity. (There's similar pressure on girls to prove themselves as women, of course, but where I grew up, at least, they were largely supposed to prove themselves to other women, whereas the boys were supposed to prove themselves to everyone. When I think about it, it was a really weird double standard.)

When you combine that "proving" phase of asserting masculinity with the fact that as FtMs, we can't empirically prove our maleness to the world at large, it becomes really easy to overdo it.

That doesn't make it right or acceptable, but I can see where they're coming from.

I agree with much of your post, Elwood.  I have my own theory on why this male posturing is done to such extreme.  Most FTM's are previously lesbian- or dyke-identified and have very little social knowledge of men.  When there is no personal experience, people cling to stereotypes.

What I don't agree with in your post is your paragraph about people stating that they like their big hands, etc.  You've made it quite widely known that you're quite small.  Well, we all aren't.  And why should people be shamed against mentioning the things they like about their bodies?  Are you saying people shouldn't talk about their surgeries or facial hair or whatever because it's too triggering for those who simply aren't there yet?  This isn't simply a group for early transition people- it's for everyone.  If that's truly what you're looking for, ask Susan to create a board for it.  Otherwise, everyone should be free to discuss relevant topics.

Quote from: Mister on September 18, 2008, 10:31:49 PM
I agree with much of your post, Elwood.  I have my own theory on why this male posturing is done to such extreme.  Most FTM's are previously lesbian- or dyke-identified and have very little social knowledge of men.  When there is no personal experience, people cling to stereotypes.

What I don't agree with in your post is your paragraph about people stating that they like their big hands, etc.  You've made it quite widely known that you're quite small.  Well, we all aren't.  And why should people be shamed against mentioning the things they like about their bodies?  Are you saying people shouldn't talk about their surgeries or facial hair or whatever because it's too triggering for those who simply aren't there yet?  This isn't simply a group for early transition people- it's for everyone.  If that's truly what you're looking for, ask Susan to create a board for it.  Otherwise, everyone should be free to discuss relevant topics.

*APPLAUDS*

Quote from: Mister on September 18, 2008, 10:31:49 PMWhat I don't agree with in your post is your paragraph about people stating that they like their big hands, etc.  You've made it quite widely known that you're quite small.  Well, we all aren't.  And why should people be shamed against mentioning the things they like about their bodies?  Are you saying people shouldn't talk about their surgeries or facial hair or whatever because it's too triggering for those who simply aren't there yet?  This isn't simply a group for early transition people- it's for everyone.  If that's truly what you're looking for, ask Susan to create a board for it.  Otherwise, everyone should be free to discuss relevant topics.

That wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about people one-upping each other with their "more masculine" traits.

Posted on: September 18, 2008, 09:32:28 PM

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Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 18, 2008, 11:07:52 PM*APPLAUDS*

You're quite done being his lap dog, right?

I agree with a lot of what you have to say. The whole macho thing, can get annoying. I've noticed, that most of the guys who are more vocal about it, usually, can't fight. I've seen plenty of "macho" talk a lot of s$%^ guys, get their ass kicked. At one point or another, if you're acting "so tough" someone will call you on it.
Also agree with the voice thing. It makes it more obvious to outsiders, if you try to portray a deeper voice than you really have. Gotta give it to um for trying though. I don't want to sound like I'm "one upping" anyone, but I'm grateful for having a naturual deep voice. I've been told T won't lower much than it already was. Someones always gonna be taller, have bigger hands, a flatter chest, smaller hips, etc..We could take parts of each other and forum the "perfect" male body, I'm sure.
As far as your "most annoying fabrication", guys saying they wanted a penis at 2, yeah, you're right, a two year old doesn't understand what their "gender" is much. But if you're going to tell me I'm fabricating, saying around 4-6 years old I WANTED and PRAYED for a penis, you must not truly understand how deep gender dysphoria can go. I'm not trying to "validate" I'm any more man than you, or anyone else for that matter. Simply telling MY story.
Your post had plenty of good points, but is also filled with a lot of stereotypes, and plain ignorance.

I agree with some of what you say, but I'm afraid you're overreaching with the 'childhood falsification' part. Some of us DID have knowledge of ourselves at 2 years of age enough that our parents knew about it.
I don't think that's falsification if your mother's got stories about it.

Another thing - all guys aren't the same. Just because a guy acts differently than you do doesn't mean he's overcompensating. Some guys ARE alphas.
It reads like you're saying just because the way we're born and are estrogen soaked that we're somehow naturally softer, nicer and sugar - spicier than other men.

Posted on: September 19, 2008, 02:04:54 AM

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Also man, if you're talking about other guys your age, posing is generally the rule whether you're bio or not. Teens are always one-upping another. Is it stupid? yeah. But guys your age do it, bio or not.

My voice/body are moderate. I look like a 12-16 year old boy, and sound like one too. I'd like to look my age. It's REALLY hard to get parts in theater when you can only play children's roles.

People call what I have discussed ignorance because they feel threatened. Gonna call me stupid and arrogant too? That would make you the bigger man, wouldn't it?

That's my point.

Posted on: September 19, 2008, 08:11:02 AM

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Quote from: Nero on September 19, 2008, 01:15:38 AMI agree with some of what you say, but I'm afraid you're overreaching with the 'childhood falsification' part. Some of us DID have knowledge of ourselves at 2 years of age enough that our parents knew about it.

That's complese bullsh*t. Children usually don't speak at that age, and even if they do, they wouldn't know the word "penis."

FtMs think they're "alphas on the inside" but it takes more than being an arrogant ->-bleeped-<- to classify as an alpha.

Quote from: Elwood on September 19, 2008, 10:12:57 AM

Quote from: Nero on September 19, 2008, 01:15:38 AMI agree with some of what you say, but I'm afraid you're overreaching with the 'childhood falsification' part. Some of us DID have knowledge of ourselves at 2 years of age enough that our parents knew about it.

That's complese bullsh*t. Children usually don't speak at that age, and even if they do, they wouldn't know the word "penis."

FtMs think they're "alphas on the inside" but it takes more than being an arrogant ->-bleeped-<- to classify as an alpha.

I know you feel strongly about this, Dan, but to call someone else's opinion BS because they don't agree with you... it's not really very fair.

There's no way to know how self-aware each individual is at such a young age. Not being able to vocalise the feeling that something's wrong with your body doesn't mean that you don't notice, or know instinctively. You don't have to know what something's called to know that you don't have one when you should.

At the very least, even if most people aren't so self-aware at that age, you can't rule out the possibility that some might be without studying every single infant on the face of the planet.

It's not an opinion. It's an asserted fact, and it's untrue.

There's perfectly well a way to know. Human brain development. Memory does not serve a child until 3 or 4 years old. If someone claims that their mother remembers, than the child must have communicated it, but at such a young age there is no way that was even possible.

It's wishful thinking that makes people believe they wanted a penis since they were an embryo.

Dan, where do you get that kids don't speak at two? My sister was talking in complete sentences by then. She also knows/knew that there are differences between boys and girls. I've a suspicion that my mother privately explained to her that boys and girls have physical differences. Seems to me that a lot of parents might do something similar; I could be wrong, of course. I'm not saying two year olds know the words penis and vagina, but they probably have some idea of what seperates a boy from a girl.

Coincidentally, I don't think my little sister knows whether I'm a boy or a girl. My mom tells her I'm a girl, but she asks me all the time, "Giggy, are you a boy? Giggy, are you a girl?" I think once she even called me a "boy-girl". I just laughed.

Quote from: Elwood on September 19, 2008, 10:37:49 AM
It's not an opinion. It's an asserted fact, and it's untrue.

There's perfectly well a way to know. Human brain development. Memory does not serve a child until 3 or 4 years old.

That's not actually true.

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/11.07/01-memory.html (http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/11.07/01-memory.html)

Children remember after age one.

I don't have time now, but I will prove what I have claimed. Children do not differentiate the sexes at such a young age. Plain and simple.

Quote from: Nero on September 19, 2008, 01:15:38 AMI agree with some of what you say, but I'm afraid you're overreaching with the 'childhood falsification' part. Some of us DID have knowledge of ourselves at 2 years of age enough that our parents knew about it.

QuoteThat's complese bullsh*t. Children usually don't speak at that age, and even if they do, they wouldn't know the word "penis."

FWIW, I can remember quite a few things from 2 years old, and most things from 3. I remember my crib, blankie, bottles, all of it. By 4 I was trying to read and figure out what the heck had gone wrong. I can't claim I knew much about genitals that early, but I knew I was a (physical) boy, and that I should have been a girl.

But then... I'm kinda weird that way. I came here knowing everything I know already. I'm just trying to remember what I already know ;)

~ Katie Marie ~

Okay, well I'll just leave you guys with this. :)

From: http://www.answers.com/topic/gender-identity

QuoteInfancy and Toddlerhood

There is a growing amount of scientific research that suggests gender identity develops at a very early age. Several studies show that infants can discriminate between male and female faces and associate faces and voices according to gender by the time they reach one year old. However, gender-labeling tasks, such as toy identification, do not occur until about age two. Gender identity and awareness of sex differences generally emerge in the first three to four years of a child's life. However, children begin to demonstrate a preference for their own sex starting at about age two.

Gender identification is often associated with the choice and use of toys in this age group, according to a number of studies done in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Sex differences in toy play have been found in children as young as one year old. By age two, children begin to spontaneously choose their types of toys based on gender. Several of these studies show that by age one, boys display a more assertive reaction than girls to toy disputes. By age two, the reaction of boys is more aggressive.

Most two-year-olds know whether they are boys or girls and can identify adults as males or females. By age three, most children know that men have a penis and women have breasts. Also at age three, children begin to apply gender labels and stereotypes, identifying gentle, empathic characteristics with females and strong, aggressive characteristics with males. Even in the twenty-first century, most young children develop stereotypes regarding gender roles, associating nurses, teachers, and secretaries as females and police officers, firefighters, and construction workers as males.

Quote from: Elwood on September 19, 2008, 10:37:49 AM
It's not an opinion. It's an asserted fact, and it's untrue.

There's perfectly well a way to know. Human brain development. Memory does not serve a child until 3 or 4 years old. If someone claims that their mother remembers, than the child must have communicated it, but at such a young age there is no way that was even possible.

It's wishful thinking that makes people believe they wanted a penis since they were an embryo.

I did communicate my gender at that age. Why do you insist on calling people liars? Everybody doesn't have the same experiences as you.



Posted on: September 19, 2008, 12:47:22 PM

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Quote from: Elwood on September 19, 2008, 10:12:57 AM

That's my point.

Posted on: September 19, 2008, 08:11:02 AM

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Quote from: Nero on September 19, 2008, 01:15:38 AMI agree with some of what you say, but I'm afraid you're overreaching with the 'childhood falsification' part. Some of us DID have knowledge of ourselves at 2 years of age enough that our parents knew about it.

That's complese bullsh*t. Children usually don't speak at that age, and even if they do, they wouldn't know the word "penis."

FtMs think they're "alphas on the inside" but it takes more than being an arrogant ->-bleeped-<- to classify as an alpha.

Whoa, just caught this one.
Don't talk to me like that and I really hope you didn't just call me an arrogant ->-bleeped-<-.
Who are you to come in here calling us all liars?

At age 4, my mother caught me straddling the rope swing in our back yard.  She asked what I was doing, I remember saying to her, "I want to see if i was supposed to be born a boy.  this will hurt if i was."  I remember this and have told this story for years having not discussed it with my mother until 3-4 yrs ago.

That is NOT bull->-bleeped-<-.  That is FACT.  If you were not aware of your trans desires or the difference between the sexes, that is your experience and not the universal one.

As Ben Franklin said:

"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

You guys should be helping each other, supporting each other and fighting together against an intolerant world... not fighting amongst each other over whose experiences are the most valid.

Making someone else's experiences and perceptions seem less important does nothing to strengthen your own in the eyes of others. And criticism says more about the critic than the criticised. What the individual goes through is down to the individual and them alone. Who is anyone to say what's right and wrong?

You're all guys, you're all different. No better, no worse, just different. And the differences between you can strengthen all of you as a whole... if you let them. Leave the judgement for the outside world you have to live in, lord knows there's enough of that around already. :-\

Touchy, touchy.

It's called CONFIRMATION BIAS. Read about it.

I am not talking about MY experiences, I'm talking about FACTS.

Quote from: Elwood on September 18, 2008, 10:36:44 AM
It's an issue that again gets on my nerves, but I want to try to understand it.

Before I start, I see this stuff both online and offline. This is NOT directed to anyone specific here.

Do guys do this to help with dysphoria? To help with passing? Or is it driven by fear? All I know is that it is one of the things that really gets on my nerves. The "tough guy" attitude is particularly irritating. Some guys will try to always "one up" me. I don't know if it's because I pass or if it is my calm demeanor, but they like to pick a bone with me about something. There's times where a guy will start an argument with me just so he can have an excuse to dominate me verbally. I honestly can't tell if it is from stress, insecurity, or PMS.

I hear a lot of guys talk about fighting. How "a real man's got to defend himself." I don't see manhood as a symbol of violence. I am no less of a man for deciding to use my brain instead of brawn. If someone is going to pick a fight with me, I am going to avoid them. What do a lot of guys say to me? That I'm a wimp and I can't handle it. Avoiding a confrontation isn't "running away," it's being safe. I'm 18 years old. I get into a fight and I can land myself a night in jail. Is proving my manhood worth a light criminal record? I don't think so.

Then there's the fact that a lot of guys pretend not to have emotion. I already talked about this example in another thread, but I'll mention it again; I was at a transgroup and the facilitator of the group asked what we wanted to do next meeting. I said, "Why don't we check-in?" Checking-in is talking about how you're doing, what's on your mind, questions you have... Well, the one of the guys said, "Talk about feelings?" They all awkwardly looked at eachother, seizing the moment to try to stick out their chests and shake off and vulnerability they may have had. I seriously was pissed... As FtMs, we know what it is like to be in a woman's body, have estrogen, live that life; we are not emotionless based on gender. Emotion is not a gender thing. It's a human thing.

Then there's guys comparing body type. I find this terribly offensive. "I have such big hands" or "I'm so tall" and all of that stuff. Then there's the handful of small short guys who awkwardly stand in silence because they don't want to talk about their "feelings." It's a very unhealthy environment. I know guys need to give themselves a pat on the back, but honestly, they need a little more tact. It's a very sensitive issue, and because we're all "manly men" no one's going to say anything about it.

Then there's percieved stereotypes of masculinity. Toughness, dominance, anger, callousness, monotonous, etc. I hear so many guys lower their voice and it just ends up sounding like they're got something in their throat. I just don't get it. Yesterday with my therapist, I spoke with my natural voice, which is quite feminine when I get excited (and I was excited to see him). He did not think me any less trans or male. I admit it; I tone my voice down a little to help pass. But there's a point where it's too much and sounds ridiculous... And I don't know why guys can't hear themselves.

Again with the tough guy attitude. Guys like to tell me "how it is." In the end, it turns out to be "how they think it is," but they have to act like they're right, because of that whole male superiority thing. Because they see other men do it, they feel like they also have got to squash others to look bigger or better. I just don't understand it, and it really gets on my nerves. My condition; being a man in a woman's body, does not make me feel the need to be overly masculine or compensating. I am just me, dealing with the confusion of being in this body. I don't see how being an alpha male would help anyone who is in this situation.

Which leads to another point; overpacking. I just don't get it. Some guys pack way too much (with like a 6 inch flaccid) and they're convinced that's the "appropriate size" for them. "If I was born male, I would be this well hung." Does it even really matter? I was hesitant to purchase the 3.5 because I was worried it would be over the top. I happen to know the men in my family are well endowed and yet I was still conscious. I don't know if anyone else is willing to see this, but a lot of guys go completely over the top.

Then there's the most annoying; fabrication. "I was 2 years old and wanted a penis." Please. A little kid doesn't even know what that is, and if they saw their brother's, it wasn't very prominent and they likely wouldn't even understand the difference. I hear guys tell stories that are way over exaggerated again and again in an attempt to make their transhood seem more "valid." I told my therapist that I didn't have a prominent male questioning until I was around 8-10 years old, and that I hadn't had a strong male identity until I was well into my teen years. That didn't make me any less trans; it just made me a later onset. So with everyone saying they've known since birth; you're only lying to yourselves. Some people, or rather, most people, live their lives as a lie, or at least partially. I for one am a firm believer that we ought to be honest with ourselves. A true man, that strong, "manly man" who can take anything, would face the truth, even though it might sting.

So I get called weak all the time. People say, "You make threads like this to boost your manliness because you're insecure." You can believe that. I personally made the thread because I was irritated by a particular FtM I recently observed... I wanted him to be himself because his mask was slipping and it didn't look good at all. I sometimes think guys have these masks on and don't realize it, so I'm bringing the issue to the forefront.

Although you can't entirely disprove someone being 2 and wanting a penis, I pretty much mostly agree with this. I suppose it kinda reminds me not to ditch what I've enjoyed as a male for so long... Well those things are geeky as hell for the most part, so I guess I'm pretty set.

I also didn't seriously question myself until puberty hit me. I was almost unaware of what I was until she was in peril cause of the T or something... Maybs

But Yeah. I think you're smart to not lose sight of your emotions as a man. Its much more healthy.

And wow... Effing get along.

I remember my grandfather holding me. He died when i was 1 and a half. possible? apparently. do i remember gender issues that far back? hell no. of course, i was sheltered and didnt know what sex was till i was like 8. My mom likes to tell the story about how i said i wanted to be a daddy when i grew up when i was 3 (i think).

imo, there are no facts when it comes to pshychology.

Quote from: Leiandra on September 19, 2008, 12:34:09 PM
As Ben Franklin said:

"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

You guys should be helping each other, supporting each other and fighting together against an intolerant world... not fighting amongst each other over whose experiences are the most valid.

Making someone else's experiences and perceptions seem less important does nothing to strengthen your own in the eyes of others. And criticism says more about the critic than the criticised. What the individual goes through is down to the individual and them alone. Who is anyone to say what's right and wrong?

You're all guys, you're all different. No better, no worse, just different. And the differences between you can strengthen all of you as a whole... if you let them. Leave the judgement for the outside world you have to live in, lord knows there's enough of that around already. :-\

I think on the surface, everyone agrees. Then there are folks who percieve sharing one's experiences, things about which they feel proud or grateful, or decisions on what their identities mean to them as De Facto attacks. So the personal gnosis and what few good feelings one may have are immediately flamed without said folks examining their motivation, having respect for the gnosis and experience of others, etc. It's utter gaslighting.

Well, we all agree that posturing is lame.  I think that's the only consensus that has really been reached in this thread.  It would be lovely to see a discussion on gender politics such as this without namecalling and mudslinging, though.

Quote from: Mister on September 19, 2008, 04:55:22 PMWell, we all agree that posturing is lame.  I think that's the only consensus that has really been reached in this thread.  It would be lovely to see a discussion on gender politics such as this without namecalling and mudslinging, though.

People get over defensive because they see these things in themselves.

Dan, where are these facts?  Only facts I've seen ar the ones proving against what your saying.   And is real experience less fact than something some thinker comes up with?

Oh, you've done it now.

I told myself I wasn't going to post this thread but now you put the bait out. Here's the kill:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,44005.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,44005.0.html)

Still doesn't prove that some people may be telling truth when say they remember this stuff.  Just says there are some who may or are exagerating.  You can't go around and say every single person who says this is lying.  I see no proff that you can't begin to notice it at 2 years old.  I personally don't remember gender distorphia at age 2 but I do remember some things from age 1.  Mostly images.  Being held up by my grandmother etc, and I have very poor short term memory at least.

I'd like to see people prove it. Because for them to tell me to prove they didn't, that's the burden of proof logical fallacy.

Quote from: Elwood on September 19, 2008, 08:28:26 PM
I'd like to see people prove it.

I'll bite. Ok, say nobody can prove it. What would that do for you?

Bait? Kill? Hunting metaphors from a Dapper Dan? Slipping masks and overcompensation from the accuser?

Absence of proof does NOT equal proof of absence.

Have a little respect for the process of others. Everyone gets where they're going in a way that works for them. Disrespecting other people's path is just uncool. Don't we have enough obstacles already?

Play Nice In The Sandbox, folks.

Quote from: Elwood on September 19, 2008, 08:28:26 PM
I'd like to see people prove it. Because for them to tell me to prove they didn't, that's the burden of proof logical fallacy.

But this whole argument is littered with ad hominem (http://www.logicalfallacies.info/personalattack.html) logical fallacies. And bringing cognitive biases into this is probably the biggest one of all, and the one that does least to strengthen your stance. All that does is try and discredit people by trying to prove that the reason why they believe something is wrong, rather than trying to prove that what it is they believe is wrong.

'You're wrong because your way of thinking is unsound' rather than 'You're wrong because the concept/experience can be proved to be incorrect/impossible'.

That's not a strong argument.

Posted on: September 20, 2008, 05:47:02 AM

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And with relation to the above quote, the burden of proof is on you, Dan, because you are the one who made the accusation of overcompensation. You're the one that takes issue with the claims. The people making them aren't accusing you of anything, so they have nothing to prove.

It's innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent, so it is down to you to prove people are overcompensating rather than down to them to prove they aren't.

But this whole argument is littered with ad hominem logical fallacies. And bringing cognitive biases into this is probably the biggest one of all, and the one that does least to strengthen your stance. All that does is try and discredit people by trying to prove that the reason why they believe something is wrong, rather than trying to prove that what it is they believe is wrong.

Great answer.

And I would think it would vary, as most of life does, with some starting pre 2 and others later - remember as Piaget taught, its the sequence of the learning that makes the difference, so that might push it up in some, back in others.

And, at this point, its pretty hard to come up with concrete proofs either way, and its not like it would be easy, but more like impossible, to come up with funding, much less human subjects, to test theories about sex and sexuality with kids under five.  Its going to remain pretty much a mystery. 

Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 19, 2008, 11:35:00 PMAbsence of proof does NOT equal proof of absence.

But absence of proof does equal absence of a decent defense.

To lie to one's self and others is creating a false path. I see nothing wrong with disrespecting a false reality.

Posted on: September 20, 2008, 09:23:54 AM

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Quote from: Leiandra on September 20, 2008, 12:20:02 AMAnd with relation to the above quote, the burden of proof is on you, Dan, because you are the one who made the accusation of overcompensation. You're the one that takes issue with the claims. The people making them aren't accusing you of anything, so they have nothing to prove.

It's innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent, so it is down to you to prove people are overcompensating rather than down to them to prove they aren't.

Ah, but it was after I had SUGGEST overcompensation that someone had decided to claim that they could remember wanting a penis at a very young age. That was an additional argument, and their responsibility to prove.

And that innocent until proven guilty phrase applies to law, not reality.

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 11:25:16 AM
And that innocent until proven guilty phrase applies to law, not reality.

But if you follow that reasoning then you, and all of us, have to prove we are who we believe we are, which is exactly the thing you're vehemently arguing against in your original post and all the way through the thread.

You can't have it both ways. It isn't one rule for one and one rule for everyone else.

I don't mean to be argumentative, because I do agree with a lot of what you say. But you seem to be blurring two entirely different arguments here. On the one hand you're saying that claims made by people in order to try and somehow validate their own gender identity are done simply to strengthen their own case based on their own perception and the need to try and one up everyone else.

That may be true in some cases, and probably is. But the key thing is 'in some cases'. And without the benefit of having a complete psychological profile of every single person on this site and in the outside world, you can't claim that the reason all people relate their experiences is simply to validate their existence.

But, on the other hand, when people do express their experiences, regardless of motivation, you make another argument, which is that those experiences, in themselves, are inaccurate... regardless of the people who claim to have them. And that's the thing I take issue with because it implies that everyone who has the same experiences yet chooses not to say anything about them, is also wrong. And that's a far wider issue than a few people trying to bolster their own self-image.

What about the people who believe they have also had similar experiences and undergone similar desires... yet don't decide that they need to be shouted from the rooftops? Are they deluded also, based on the cognitive processes of others who want to try and use the very same experiences as a means to an end?

That's what I think the problem is here. In my opinion, if you want to argue that a person can't physically have an experience because the experience cannot be had, then do that... but do that only. Likewise if you want to argue that people's motivations are such that they desire to express the fact that they've had these experiences simply to empower themselves, then fine, do that, but again... do only that.

You can't use one argument to justify the other argument because the motivations of an individual making a claim has absolutely no relevance to a claim's inherent validity or lack thereof.

...No, I don't think anyone needs to prove they're trans, I just think that people shouldn't lie to themselves or to me by stretching the truth because somehow they think that makes them "more trans." It's a disgusting ego boost and I hate looking at it.

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 12:05:45 PM
It's a disgusting ego boost and I hate looking at it.

Welcome to life, Elwood.  There are tons of things I don't want to read in this group and even more things I don't want to deal with IRL.  But y'know what?  Not everyone is going to be just like you.  Not everyone was clueless about the differences between the sexes at age 2 or 4.  Not everyone finds the blues brothers to be entertaining (they bug the crap out of me, FWIW).  Not everyone thinks theater is a worthwhile pursuit.  For trans people, enlightenment surrounding the concept of gender variance is a universal concept.  For people who do not live in caves, enlightenment surrounding government corruption, racism, etc is (generally) a universal concept.  Are you going to begrudge someone their views because they realized them sooner than you did?  Are you going to tell a well-read 12 year old to STFU because he or she is "too young" to have a global view?

Um, I never said that people were clueless. My point that everyone is arguing with is that it isn't really even possible for a kid to know what a penis is at 2 years old.

It's not hard to realize your anatomy before I did. I realized it around 8 years old. I think it's certainly possible for someone to get it as young as 4. That's 4 years people could have ahead of me at least, and I don't see that making them "more trans."

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 12:05:45 PM
...No, I don't think anyone needs to prove they're trans, I just think that people shouldn't lie to themselves or to me by stretching the truth because somehow they think that makes them "more trans." It's a disgusting ego boost and I hate looking at it.

What do you think this is - a contest for the earliest desired penis? I don't see anyone here declaring '->-bleeped-<-r than thou'. I see people discussing their experiences. I do see someone charging others in a desperate attempt to prove some point. But I'm not going to play psychobabble tag with you. I am going to ask why you're letting other men's experiences invalidate you.

Quote from: Nero on September 20, 2008, 12:33:28 PM
What do you think this is - a contest for the earliest desired penis? I don't see anyone here declaring '->-bleeped-<-r than thou'. I see people discussing their experiences. I do see someone charging others in a desperate attempt to prove some point. But I'm not going to play psychobabble tag with you. I am going to ask why you're letting other men's experiences invalidate you.

:eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:

Nero is FOR THE WIN!

Quote from: Nero on September 20, 2008, 12:33:28 PMI am going to ask why you're letting other men's experiences invalidate you.

It isn't. You're wrong if you think I'm comparing myself to others.

I just hate liars, and it's a lie if someone thinks they knew they were a man since embryonic state.

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 12:28:16 PM
Um, I never said that people were clueless. My point that everyone is arguing with is that it isn't really even possible for a kid to know what a penis is at 2 years old.

Most two year olds do not realize that a penis is a male reproductive organ that aids in urination, has the ability to become erect and is used in sex acts to inseminate women or penetrate other men.  They do not realize that penises can be made to 'feel good' by stroking, licking, sucking, etc.  You're spot-on with that one.

But two year olds DO realize that boys have them and girls do not.  Two year olds are also acutely aware of society's gender roles, as well as their personal tastes and desires.  Do I have a psych degree to prove all this?  No.  I have 5 years of my adult life living in a home in which a daycare with 10 children aged 4 months-4 years, five days per week.  I think I'm qualified.

Meh. All anecdote. No one has yet to prove that.

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 12:43:23 PM
Meh. All anecdote. No one has yet to prove that.

which means it's yet to be disproven.

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 12:40:32 PM

Quote from: Nero on September 20, 2008, 12:33:28 PMI am going to ask why you're letting other men's experiences invalidate you.

It isn't. You're wrong if you think I'm comparing myself to others.

I just hate liars, and it's a lie if someone thinks they knew they were a man since embryonic state.

I didn't hear anyone say that. But children do exhibit gendered behaviour very early on. Whether or not it's related to outside social factors is anybody's guess.

Quote from: Elwood on September 18, 2008, 10:36:44 AM
It's an issue that again gets on my nerves, but I want to try to understand it.

Before I start, I see this stuff both online and offline. This is NOT directed to anyone specific here.

Do guys do this to help with dysphoria? To help with passing? Or is it driven by fear? All I know is that it is one of the things that really gets on my nerves. The "tough guy" attitude is particularly irritating. Some guys will try to always "one up" me. I don't know if it's because I pass or if it is my calm demeanor, but they like to pick a bone with me about something. There's times where a guy will start an argument with me just so he can have an excuse to dominate me verbally. I honestly can't tell if it is from stress, insecurity, or PMS.

I hear a lot of guys talk about fighting. How "a real man's got to defend himself." I don't see manhood as a symbol of violence. I am no less of a man for deciding to use my brain instead of brawn. If someone is going to pick a fight with me, I am going to avoid them. What do a lot of guys say to me? That I'm a wimp and I can't handle it. Avoiding a confrontation isn't "running away," it's being safe. I'm 18 years old. I get into a fight and I can land myself a night in jail. Is proving my manhood worth a light criminal record? I don't think so.

Then there's the fact that a lot of guys pretend not to have emotion. I already talked about this example in another thread, but I'll mention it again; I was at a transgroup and the facilitator of the group asked what we wanted to do next meeting. I said, "Why don't we check-in?" Checking-in is talking about how you're doing, what's on your mind, questions you have... Well, the one of the guys said, "Talk about feelings?" They all awkwardly looked at eachother, seizing the moment to try to stick out their chests and shake off and vulnerability they may have had. I seriously was pissed... As FtMs, we know what it is like to be in a woman's body, have estrogen, live that life; we are not emotionless based on gender. Emotion is not a gender thing. It's a human thing.

Then there's guys comparing body type. I find this terribly offensive. "I have such big hands" or "I'm so tall" and all of that stuff. Then there's the handful of small short guys who awkwardly stand in silence because they don't want to talk about their "feelings." It's a very unhealthy environment. I know guys need to give themselves a pat on the back, but honestly, they need a little more tact. It's a very sensitive issue, and because we're all "manly men" no one's going to say anything about it.

Then there's percieved stereotypes of masculinity. Toughness, dominance, anger, callousness, monotonous, etc. I hear so many guys lower their voice and it just ends up sounding like they're got something in their throat. I just don't get it. Yesterday with my therapist, I spoke with my natural voice, which is quite feminine when I get excited (and I was excited to see him). He did not think me any less trans or male. I admit it; I tone my voice down a little to help pass. But there's a point where it's too much and sounds ridiculous... And I don't know why guys can't hear themselves.

Again with the tough guy attitude. Guys like to tell me "how it is." In the end, it turns out to be "how they think it is," but they have to act like they're right, because of that whole male superiority thing. Because they see other men do it, they feel like they also have got to squash others to look bigger or better. I just don't understand it, and it really gets on my nerves. My condition; being a man in a woman's body, does not make me feel the need to be overly masculine or compensating. I am just me, dealing with the confusion of being in this body. I don't see how being an alpha male would help anyone who is in this situation.

*clears his throat*

Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 20, 2008, 12:48:25 PM*clears his throat*

Your ignorance is  showing.

You'd have to prove I was talking about me. You ASSUME I was talking about me but I wasn't.

Posted on: September 20, 2008, 10:55:03 AM

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Quote from: Mister on September 20, 2008, 12:45:39 PM

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 12:43:23 PMMeh. All anecdote. No one has yet to prove that.

which means it's yet to be disproven.

Burden of proof fallacy.

Another thought..

So I'm "lying" if I realized something was amiss at 2 or 4.  What about if I had my epiphany at 50? 60? Hell, what about the 72 year old pre-T FTM I met last week?  Are the ages of these realizations invalid as well?  Because surely, you would have known before your so-called Golden Years, right?  Seriously, Elwood, what's your take on the latecomers?

Since so many of us are clearly doing this "too early" (and possibly "too late", depending on your response), when exactly is the correct or appropriate time to be self-aware?

No. The only "realization" I consider invalid is one that happened so young that the child wouldn't remember it or it was before they could have possibly conceived it.

Many people consider myself a latecomer. I see that a lot of MtFs are latecomers, and you don't see me calling them out.

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 12:55:49 PM
You'd have to prove I was talking about me. You ASSUME I was talking about me but I wasn't.[

I find it extremely unwise to speak to the experiences of others and best left for others to speak of their own experiences, lest we misinterpret their thoughts, emotions or intentions.

Posted on: September 20, 2008, 11:04:17 AM

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Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 01:03:13 PM
No. The only "realization" I consider invalid is one that happened so young that the child wouldn't remember it or it was before they could have possibly conceived it.

Many people consider myself a latecomer. I see that a lot of MtFs are latecomers, and you don't see me calling them out.

In all honesty, I cannot read every thread on this board nor everything you write.  You may have for all I know.

Again, I ask- what is the appropriate age?

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 12:28:16 PM
It's not hard to realize your anatomy before I did. I realized it around 8 years old. I think it's certainly possible for someone to get it as young as 4. That's 4 years people could have ahead of me at least, and I don't see that making them "more trans."

I agree with you, Dan. I didn't even begin to question my gender identity in any real sense until I was 14. Up until then it was just... meh. I don't think the age matters at which you begin to realise that you're not who you should be. The fact that you realise it at all should be the important thing. If a person knew at two that they had the incorrect anatomy, then I think that level of self awareness should be respected... even if it doesn't fit in with your own model or world view.

I'm kinda glad I didn't, to be honest. I've had enough years of confusion as it is, I can only imagine how hard it must have been for those who knew long before it was possible to do anything about. Ignorance, in my case, was probably bliss... my childhood was difficult enough without that added nightmare. So I kinda sympathise with those who figured out their gender identity early on in life.

I'm not sure there are varying degrees of 'Trans-ness'. I don't think it comes on a sliding scale, where some people need to be higher up that scale than others. Aggressive and belligerent men... sensitive or effeminate men... are still men. Likewise girly girls and tomboys... are still women.

There are millions of women more feminine and girly than I am. Even most of the women here, lol, and maybe, occasionally, a few go out of their way to assert it, by whatever means. The way I look at it is that if that's the way they want to live their lives, and if they feel the need for that affirmation and security in order to solidify their view of themselves within their own mind then I hope they find it and I wish them luck and happiness, and would like to assist however I can.

Personally, I have the fashion sense of a sleep-deprived sloth, the makeup savvy of Robocop, and the grace of a hyperactive chimp. But I don't really care. I'm no less a woman than anyone else, nor do I see myself as such because of a need to define my own identity through other people's.

Their lives are their lives, your life is your life. And perception of one person has no bearing on perception of you. Making someone else more than they were does not make you less than you are. :)

With regard to this argument, I'm not even sure that the driving force behind anyone making an effort to assert their manhood is to try and diminish anyone else's, but maybe it's more likely that they feel more secure within themselves through trying to live up to an image of how they percieve a man should be. Whether that's right or wrong is down to each person's individual world view. Maybe it's more proving it to themselves than to everyone else. :)

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 01:03:13 PM
No. The only "realization" I consider invalid is one that happened so young that the child wouldn't remember it or it was before they could have possibly conceived it.

Many people consider myself a latecomer. I see that a lot of MtFs are latecomers, and you don't see me calling them out.

Well as far as 'doing something about it (T, surgery, etc)', I'm a latecomer too.
But early realization is possible. Whether the child recalls something or not, their caregivers are certainly with it enough to remember.

Quote from: Mister on September 20, 2008, 01:05:49 PMI find it extremely unwise to speak to the experiences of others and best left for others to speak of their own experiences, lest we misinterpret their thoughts, emotions or intentions.

Finally a reasonable response from someone. This I can agree with.

Quote from: Mister on September 20, 2008, 01:05:49 PMAgain, I ask- what is the appropriate age?

This isn't about what is "appropriate." It's about what's feasible.

Posted on: September 20, 2008, 11:09:52 AM

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Quote from: Leiandra on September 20, 2008, 01:07:20 PM

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 12:28:16 PMIt's not hard to realize your anatomy before I did. I realized it around 8 years old. I think it's certainly possible for someone to get it as young as 4. That's 4 years people could have ahead of me at least, and I don't see that making them "more trans."

I agree with you, Dan. I didn't even begin to question my gender identity in any real sense until I was 14. Up until then it was just... meh. I don't think the age matters at which you begin to realise that you're not who you should be. The fact that you realise it at all should be the important thing. If a person knew at two that they had the incorrect anatomy, then I think that level of self awareness should be respected... even if it doesn't fit in with your own model or world view.

I'm kinda glad I didn't, to be honest. I've had enough years of confusion as it is, I can only imagine how hard it must have been for those who knew long before it was possible to do anything about. Ignorance, in my case, was probably bliss... my childhood was difficult enough without that added nightmare. So I kinda sympathise with those who figured out their gender identity early on in life.

I'm not sure there are varying degrees of 'Trans-ness'. I don't think it comes on a sliding scale, where some people need to be higher up that scale than others. Aggressive and belligerent men... sensitive or effeminate men... are still men. Likewise girly girls and tomboys... are still women.

There are millions of women more feminine and girly than I am. Even most of the women here, lol, and maybe, occasionally, a few go out of their way to assert it, by whatever means. The way I look at it is that if that's the way they want to live their lives, and if they feel the need for that affirmation and security in order to solidify their view of themselves within their own mind then I hope they find it and I wish them luck and happiness, and would like to assist however I can.

Personally, I have the fashion sense of a sleep-deprived sloth, the makeup savvy of Robocop, and the grace of a hyperactive chimp. But I don't really care. I'm no less a woman than anyone else, nor do I see myself as such because of a need to define my own identity through other people's.

Their lives are their lives, your life is your life. And perception of one person has no bearing on perception of you. Making someone else more than they were does not make you less than you are. :)

With regard to this argument, I'm not even sure that the driving force behind anyone making an effort to assert their manhood is to try and diminish anyone else's, but maybe it's more likely that they feel more secure within themselves through trying to live up to an image of how they percieve a man should be. Whether that's right or wrong is down to each person's individual world view. Maybe it's more proving it to themselves than to everyone else. :)

This is the way I see it:

You're trans or you aren't.

It's not very hard to be trans. You don't have to go out of your way to prove it by saying "I KNEW IT ALL ALONG ME FIRST ME FIRST." Honestly, that proves nothing. It's much more useful to be truthful, because every last piece of honest-to-God information a person has about themselves can help them discover their true selves and maintain stability through transition. If we lie to ourselves, we are relying on a fantasy to build our identity, and all that can create is a walking, talking caricature of what someone thinks a transsexual is supposed to act like.

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 01:12:59 PM

Quote from: Mister on September 20, 2008, 01:05:49 PMI find it extremely unwise to speak to the experiences of others and best left for others to speak of their own experiences, lest we misinterpret their thoughts, emotions or intentions.

Finally a reasonable response from someone. This I can agree with.

Quote from: Mister on September 20, 2008, 01:05:49 PMAgain, I ask- what is the appropriate age?

This isn't about what is "appropriate." It's about what's feasible.

Posted on: September 20, 2008, 11:09:52 AM

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Quote from: Leiandra on September 20, 2008, 01:07:20 PM

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 12:28:16 PMIt's not hard to realize your anatomy before I did. I realized it around 8 years old. I think it's certainly possible for someone to get it as young as 4. That's 4 years people could have ahead of me at least, and I don't see that making them "more trans."

I agree with you, Dan. I didn't even begin to question my gender identity in any real sense until I was 14. Up until then it was just... meh. I don't think the age matters at which you begin to realise that you're not who you should be. The fact that you realise it at all should be the important thing. If a person knew at two that they had the incorrect anatomy, then I think that level of self awareness should be respected... even if it doesn't fit in with your own model or world view.

I'm kinda glad I didn't, to be honest. I've had enough years of confusion as it is, I can only imagine how hard it must have been for those who knew long before it was possible to do anything about. Ignorance, in my case, was probably bliss... my childhood was difficult enough without that added nightmare. So I kinda sympathise with those who figured out their gender identity early on in life.

I'm not sure there are varying degrees of 'Trans-ness'. I don't think it comes on a sliding scale, where some people need to be higher up that scale than others. Aggressive and belligerent men... sensitive or effeminate men... are still men. Likewise girly girls and tomboys... are still women.

There are millions of women more feminine and girly than I am. Even most of the women here, lol, and maybe, occasionally, a few go out of their way to assert it, by whatever means. The way I look at it is that if that's the way they want to live their lives, and if they feel the need for that affirmation and security in order to solidify their view of themselves within their own mind then I hope they find it and I wish them luck and happiness, and would like to assist however I can.

Personally, I have the fashion sense of a sleep-deprived sloth, the makeup savvy of Robocop, and the grace of a hyperactive chimp. But I don't really care. I'm no less a woman than anyone else, nor do I see myself as such because of a need to define my own identity through other people's.

Their lives are their lives, your life is your life. And perception of one person has no bearing on perception of you. Making someone else more than they were does not make you less than you are. :)

With regard to this argument, I'm not even sure that the driving force behind anyone making an effort to assert their manhood is to try and diminish anyone else's, but maybe it's more likely that they feel more secure within themselves through trying to live up to an image of how they percieve a man should be. Whether that's right or wrong is down to each person's individual world view. Maybe it's more proving it to themselves than to everyone else. :)

This is the way I see it:

You're trans or you aren't.

It's not very hard to be trans. You don't have to go out of your way to prove it by saying "I KNEW IT ALL ALONG ME FIRST ME FIRST." Honestly, that proves nothing. It's much more useful to be truthful, because every last piece of honest-to-God information a person has about themselves can help them discover their true selves and maintain stability through transition. If we lie to ourselves, we are relying on a fantasy to build our identity, and all that can create is a walking, talking caricature of what someone thinks a transsexual is supposed to act like.

Sure. As surely as every man knows his own truth.

Here's what it comes down to, Elwood..

I knew by age four, at the latest, that something wasn't right.  I didn't have language to describe it, but I knew my body was wrong.  The expression of this disparity that I gave the example of has been confirmed by my mother.  For me, this is my truth.  If you do not believe me, I will gladly give you her phone number and you can ask for yourself.

Some people know from an early age, some people do not.

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 01:12:59 PM
This is the way I see it:

You're trans or you aren't.

It's not very hard to be trans. You don't have to go out of your way to prove it by saying "I KNEW IT ALL ALONG ME FIRST ME FIRST." Honestly, that proves nothing. It's much more useful to be truthful, because every last piece of honest-to-God information a person has about themselves can help them discover their true selves and maintain stability through transition. If we lie to ourselves, we are relying on a fantasy to build our identity, and all that can create is a walking, talking caricature of what someone thinks a transsexual is supposed to act like.

I completely agree 100%. :) What that truthfulness is, is for each individual to say. If they know they are being truthful, honest with themselves, it's irrelevent whether anyone else believes them or not. It changes nothing. :)

Quote from: Mister on September 20, 2008, 01:17:12 PMHere's what it comes down to, Elwood..

I knew by age four, at the latest, that something wasn't right.  I didn't have language to describe it, but I knew my body was wrong.  The expression of this disparity that I gave the example of has been confirmed by my mother.  For me, this is my truth.  If you do not believe me, I will gladly give you her phone number and you can ask for yourself.

Some people know from an early age, some people do not.

I do believe you, because 4 is a reasonable age to have awareness of one's sexuality. It's people who say they knew it from age 1-2 that lack credibility in my eyes.

The other point is that your mother recalls it, not you. When the transgendered individual themselves claims to remember it, I don't find that claim very credible. Unless they were 3 or 4, which is an age people do remember things.

Posted on: September 20, 2008, 11:23:18 AM

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Quote from: Leiandra on September 20, 2008, 01:19:10 PM

Quote from: Elwood on September 20, 2008, 01:12:59 PMThis is the way I see it:

You're trans or you aren't.

It's not very hard to be trans. You don't have to go out of your way to prove it by saying "I KNEW IT ALL ALONG ME FIRST ME FIRST." Honestly, that proves nothing. It's much more useful to be truthful, because every last piece of honest-to-God information a person has about themselves can help them discover their true selves and maintain stability through transition. If we lie to ourselves, we are relying on a fantasy to build our identity, and all that can create is a walking, talking caricature of what someone thinks a transsexual is supposed to act like.

I completely agree 100%. :) What that truthfulness is, is for each individual to say. If they know they are being truthful, honest with themselves, it's irrelevent whether anyone else believes them or not. It changes nothing. :)

I agree. So really, if someone thinks my opinion affects them, then they're wrong. If they are certain it's the truth, what I say shouldn't make them feel attacked. Those who feel attacked have doubt.

If they are certain it's the truth

Umm, I kinda shy away from people who think they have some sort of certain truth.  If you've made that critical error in thinking and perception, you've no doubt made others also.

truth, well Truth with a Capitol "T" the Greek idea of Veritas, is pretty much a relative deal, outside of simple statements like "Its raining now" that are easy to check out and prove.

I do remember it.  If you recall my OP on the subject, I told that story for years and just recently it was confirmed by my mother. 

I'm willing to bet that people with male siblings realize the difference between boys and girls much, much sooner than those who are only children or have only female siblings (as is my case.)