Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I have seen this question in many times. It has no right or wrong answer. However I find it rather interesting.

The truth/facts may speak for themselves, but most people won't let them get in the way of a good argument.

I don't think facts speak for themselves for two reasons.

1) A fact always comes with an interpretaion, a fact by itself doesn't really have any meaning.

2) An objective fact, is pretty difficult to determine.

Are facts not tested by scientific method and empirical causation?

Quote from: lisagurl on October 04, 2008, 02:38:58 PM
Are facts not tested by scientific method and empirical causation?

often not sadly.

Quote from: lisagurl on October 04, 2008, 02:38:58 PM
Are facts not tested by scientific method and empirical causation?

but they interpreted in a social sense and don't mean a lot without interpretation.

If the facts told you that duck x had a bill, duck y had a bill, duck z had a bill - those are the facts. It is the interpretation that tell you that 'ducks have bills'.

Quote from: Pica Pica on October 04, 2008, 03:18:54 PM

Quote from: lisagurl on October 04, 2008, 02:38:58 PM
Are facts not tested by scientific method and empirical causation?

but they interpreted in a social sense and don't mean a lot without interpretation.

If the facts told you that duck x had a bill, duck y had a bill, duck z had a bill - those are the facts. It is the interpretation that tell you that 'ducks have bills'.

Also that in many situations, what can be defined as a fact and the sources from which said "facts" come from becomes questionable.

Quote from: lisagurl on October 04, 2008, 02:38:58 PM
Are facts not tested by scientific method and empirical causation?

Rarely.  Take transsexualism.  Many people reject the idea that it is a real thing. Yet, the fact that there are thousands of us from diverse backgrounds screams that it is.

There are many ways to interpret facts.

Cindi

QuoteMany people reject the idea that it is a real thing

Many people voted for Bush also. The subjective view of people does not determine fact. That is the biggest flaw in a democracy.

Transsexualism is a word that describes changing gender. It does not pose any facts. Psychology is a young practice which sometimes uses the scientific method but has difficulty separating human interference with the science.

Hi,

     I didn't vote because I don't have much of a grip on the idea of facts. I'm not kidding. I seem to be nearly entirely intuitive. Sometimes at work, I do the opposite of what my knowledge and experience tells me to do and it sometimes work.

     I don't understand "what is a fact?" To me, nothing is permanent. Everything from mass to matter to energy are in flux. Whatever fits today will not fit tomorrow.

     I guess you can say that it's a fact that the word 'juice' has five letters, but does it really?  Should you be counting the letters 'I' & 'E'?  They are not pronounced. So, are they even really there? So, you might say it's a fact that the word 'juice' in the English language has 5 letters when written and maybe 3 letters when spoken. You now have 2 different facts concerning the amount of letters in one word.
     As I said, I'm not joking. I honestly don't feel that I can understand the concept of facts.

    My point is that everything is confusing to me. Anytime I believe something is true, it changes.
   
    I'm not trying to be a pinhead but, apparently, seems to come naturally to me.

QuoteIf the facts told you that duck x had a bill, duck y had a bill, duck z had a bill - those are the facts. It is the interpretation that tell you that 'ducks have bills'.

The only facts you have are 3 ducks have bills.You do not have enough information or size sample to make any interpretation except a subjective guess. Which is not a fact, merely a personal view. Logic is a type of math. As with all math garbage in garbage out.

well, that is because I didn't want to write that "such and such duck had a bill" many thousands of times. I reckoned you would get bored reading it, and I certainly would get bored writing it. A bit of sense please.

But you also need to know the total amount of ducks and the size of the sample then you could say that the probability of ducks with bills is X

Still not a fact only a hypothesis.

so, it's a fact that it's a hypothesis?

Quote from: Rebis on October 05, 2008, 07:23:22 PM
so, it's a fact that it's a hypothesis?

Fact=
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.

Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed:

Now does it meet that criteria?

Do you have a sense of humor?   

Quote from: Rebis on October 05, 2008, 07:38:09 PM

Do you have a sense of humor?   

Not when it comes to facts.

Oh.

A mathematician, a physicist, and an astronomer are on their way to Scotland. They cross the border and observe a black sheep in the middle of a field. "Look," exclaims the astronomer, "all Scottish sheep are black!" The physicist responds, "No, no! Some Scottish sheep are black!" The mathematician shakes her head, takes a breath and proclaims, "Ladies, all we can truly say is that in Scotland there exists at least one field, containing at least one sheep, at least one side of which is black."

And the sheep turns and says, "Shut the hell up. I'm trying to eat here!"

yeah, i'm on the side of the sheep

What are you doing there? And how does the sheep feel about it?!!! :o

The sheep said "Naaaaaaaaaaaa"

It seems that the option ''illustrate principals'' has got more support 3-2. My own ''speak for themselves'' is probably against my epistemological basic assumptions. But genuine inductive thinking must be kept at high value.

Posted on: October 13, 2008, 08:20:46 am

---

I like to think and work inductive. From a little facts towards a bigger picture. I have also self-made concept called ''genuine understanding''. Hard to explain.  :D

Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts dont do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
Facts are getting the best of them
Facts are nothing on the face of things
Facts dont stain the furniture
Facts go out and slam the door
Facts are written all over your face
Facts continue to change their shape

Im still waiting...Im still waiting...Im still waiting...

David Byrne and Talking Heads, Crosseyed and Painless

Quote from: tekla on October 13, 2008, 08:30:59 AM
[ Facts dont do what I want them to do

They do actually more than the principals. :D

In his 1988 speech at the Repub Convention, Ron Ray-gun, attempting to quote John Adams, who said, "Facts are stubborn things"  In fact flubed his lines and said


"Facts are stupid things."

He was right, for once.

Shouldn't that be principles and not principals?

Ignoring spelling, or possible cultural differences, you could argue for both options. 

Context is important.  If you know the full context of a set of facts, then they can stand alone.  (Of course, knowing the full context means that they aren't standing alone...)

If you don't know the context, you can still use facts to illustrate principles.  A set of facts could show that there is a predictable cause-effect chain in a system that you don't know much about.  If there are similar facts tied to similar systems, you can argue that there are common principles involved.

The General Theory of Systems works on this.  For example, the chaos of air flow around a newly lit match tends to resemble the chaos of gas flow around a newly formed star.