Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I know most of you don't come to susans to talk about things like this. But this is the only
site I visit, many of you are my friends and you know how freaked I can get and I need to talk about this.

I'm really really concerned about the future. More than I've ever been. I've been through layoff's, market
crashes, recessions but this one just feels different. I'm hoping that maybe it's because I'm reacting differently
being on HRT, but it seems to me that there is really really something very bad going to happen this time. I have
quite a bit of background in economics and everything I know just does not apply this time. We are stuck between
two very bad choices and I think by this time next year it will be clear how bad those choices are. I hope that I'm
wrong but I just don't see any way out of this without severe consequences and I'm normally a very positive
person. I voted for Obama in the primary but now his latest tax idea's are REALLY scaring me. The best thing right
now is for everyone tinkering with the economy is to keep their hands off it and let the system work.

So how concerned are you and how is the economic atmosphere in your area?

People are certainly trying to scare me, the headlines and the news. Seems like it would be in someone's interest to have me scared and not mine. I go with the reasoning that all i actually need, for home, bills and food is £130 a week, and anything extra is a bonus (which is good, i'm not getting any extra).

In a world yes.  Not for myself, but for most of the people I know.

I don't worry much about it myself, I work in an industry (entertainment and liquor sales) that by tradition do very well in hard times.  I'm also used to working as a janitor with a PhD, so I'll get by.

But for a lot of people, they are going to be singing, "hard times come again no more."

My take on it tends to be "wait it out."  We could listen to all the hysteria on the streets, but it's better for us and for the economy if we keep our heads cool.

Buffet has a saying.. something like "Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful."  I don't have any experience, but based on what I've learned and heard from others, now would be the perfect time to buy some good stocks with proven longevity and then sit tight and wait for them to go up again, because they will.  A recession is not the end of the world, it is not an economy collapsing, even though it might seem like it.  A recession lasts a few years and then things get better.  I'm actually really glad this is happening now because I have another few years before I graduate college, and by then, things should be looking up. :)

I mean, that one day when Dow Jones fell 700 points was the largest point drop in history, but it was NOT the largest percentage drop in history.  Not even close.  The amount of money floating around is still huge, it just had a longer way to fall since it was so artificially inflated.

Short-term, I'm nervous.  But long-term, I think things are going to be okay.

See that is kinda what I'm getting at. My feeling is that the public thinks this is going to be like the 1987 crash, we crash,
we rocket up 30% the next couple of year and never look back. I think it's going to be like 1929, we crash... and by
crash I mean DOW somewhere around 4000 and then we are mired in severe recession or depression for several years.

I don't listen to the TV news media much at all so I'm not sure what they are saying but everything that I read and analyze
for myself says that there is no quick fix for what ails us. We are going to crash hard this time. I posted something about this
earlier this year here at susans , I half hearted tried to find it and I could not. But basically in looking at the Fed banking
numbers my thinking at the start of this year was the banks were insolvent before anyone was saying so. Just the fact that
the government has gone to such extreme measures as to buy into banks to me speaks volumes. I think even if we don't
crash it will go down in history as a worse disaster than 1929. And if we had Buffet's deep pockets we could all be greedy right now.

I hope it's just the hormones  :)

Amanda

It's pretty impossible for it to be as bad as the one in 1929, because of all the government protections that were put in place afterward.  There won't be all those disastrous runs on banks since, for the most part, our deposits are insured and won't just suddenly disappear.  The banks appear to be holding steady for now, some small ones might give out but the large ones are so large that they'll hold up.  Plus, while unemployment is down, it doesn't appear to be down at the kinds of levels that would signify something of that scale.

Everyone right now is already saying that this will be the worst thing to hit us since 1929.  But, from what I've read, that doesn't seem to say all that much.  The recessions we've been in since 1929 haven't been all that earth-shakingly bad, so if this one is worse, yeah, it'll hit people hard.. but we'll survive.  There's a lot of people in my family who are heavily involved in the economy and the stock market.. and the consensus seems to be, "It sucks, but it'll pass.  People need to remember that the economy runs in cycles, and that it will go up again."

Another reason why I don't think it'll be some big catastrophe is that the economy is so global right now.  For it to be a catastrophe over here would also make a catastrophe in every single other country in the world, just by virtue of it all being so interdependent.  It just doesn't seem likely.  That would be apocalyptic in scale.

It may be hormones, I know when I'm hormonal I find myself stressing out about stuff that normally wouldn't phase me much. :-\

PS- Warren Buffet may be ridiculously rich, but how did he get that way?  By having some pretty good insight into how things work and what the future is likely to hold. ;) I trust his experience.

Am I worried? Of course, everyone should be. Not so much about the "recession" they refuse to refer to as such, but because our leaders obviously have no clue as to what to do about it and the general public demands that they do. It does not help with media that loves to sensationalize and traders who love to make people scared to make a buck, then believe their own scare stories.

As for me... I have income from many sources and industries, I can weather the storm.

because of all the government protections that were put in place afterward.

Remember, that Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, spent 28 years now trying very hard, and in many cases being very successful in dismantling all that, like the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933.

If you think things can't get worse, your not thinking.

Quote from: tekla on October 23, 2008, 06:57:16 PM
because of all the government protections that were put in place afterward.

Remember, that Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, spent 28 years now trying very hard, and in many cases being very successful in dismantling all that, like the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933.

If you think things can't get worse, your not thinking.

A lot of protections and safeguards put in place were ignored or purposely not used.
No point in having protections in place if you refuse to use them.

Im not scared as much as it was a wake up call. I have decided to go back to work after hanging around for over 2 years (1 was semi working). A lot of it has  to do with retirement,i am middle aged? (38) and my retirement has tanked. I know a lot of this has to do with the fact that I was in high risk stuff because I have a while for retirement. I also want to go back to work in order to be putting money in now since the market is so low. I also just want to have a safety net which has evaporated. I will weather thru this, I think it was a good wake up call for some who got themselves over extended. Things can definitely get worse I laugh when people say its going to be a depression, definitely not going that far. Unemployment would need to be 25% and much more would need to be happening with the market and in the country.
Myles
Interesting as I went back to school and in Macroeconomics, definitely a good time to be studying that. I was also in the process of reading Alan Greenspans book before school started, when ever I have free reading time again I'll definitely pick it back up.

I didn't say things can't get worse, I said I doubt it will be as bad as the Great Depression. :)

You are right in that it it will [not] be as bad as the Great Depression.   In fact, by the time all is said and done, and the cards fall, it might well be much, much worse.

the economy  is bad in my area  up till yesterday we was ranked  number one inthe  usa as haveing the worset economy . but now

with the new report out we are now ranked number two .  :icon_rolleyes2:  but iam lucky  for the most part . cuase i have things

covered . but never the less iam still very concered about it. but also i do have hope that the economy will trun around

The pound dropped the lowest it has ever been since over a decade before my birth.

Hooray, my debts are worth less.

yes, i'm worried. fine time for this to happen just when i'm out of the game.

I do have a lot of concerns about the local economy.  The county where i live is primarily agricultural (apples).  We had late spring / early summer hailstorms that damaged a significant portion of the crop.  Some orchards lost their entire crop.  It was the first time I had ever seen hail coat the ground like snow.  Not just once but on three seperate occassions this year.

A substantial portion of New York State's funding comes from NYC and Wall Street.  With the falling markets comes less funding for education.  There is a rumor going around in the education circles that the state may not give all the funding it promised.  While my area is protected (science), there are several teachers who are wondering if they are going to be downsized at the end of this year.

There are fewer and fewer people working in technology or industrial jobs in my county / school district.  That means less funding by tax payers.

The next few years are going to be rough...

Chaunte

QuoteYou are right in that it it will [not] be as bad as the Great Depression.   In fact, by the time all is said and
done, and the cards fall, it might well be much, much worse.

That is what I'm scared off. I don't think most people realize how epic the problems are that we now
face. And it's worldwide. During past recessions there have been bright spots in the world economy, if we
were down, Europe or Asia was up. Now the whole world is headed down. Everything I look at tells
me that the next three or four years is going to be really really bad.

I really expect a meltdown of the stock market soon as what we've seen so far does not justify
the current economic outlook. It way not happen this week but at some point soon there will be
a jaw dropping crash. And the really scary thing is the stock market has always been a leading economic indicator,
so things are BAD now but it's predicting that things will be even worse soon.

The fed released the bank reserve figures last week and it is clear that the banking system is insolvent. They have
no reserves. All their capital is borrowed from the federal government. Last October they had 41 billion in
reserves. Last week the fed reported that all those reserves are gone and the banks owe the goverment 362 billion
dollars. There is no capital for banks to loan. It's all borrowed.

Also don't believe the government numbers for un-employment and inflation, they are all rigged. Everyone
knows that based on how much just the cost of living has gone up that inflation is much higher than what is
being reported. And employment is a joke since it does not count people that simply give up looking for work.

I'm normally a REALLY positive person but Tekla is SO right, things might be much much worse than the
Great Depression.

Amanda

Just some random facts.

-  Just a few weeks ago the largest car dealership in the United States closed.  They sold Chevy cars.  Not an unpopular brand.

-  Car dealerships that even up to one year ago were selling ten cars a day, now are selling one car every ten days.

-  Foreclosure rates are at an all time high

-  We use fewer people on show calls now.  Bands are not dragging near the amount of stuff with them they did even a few years ago.  What five years ago would have been a full semi, has been reduced to a trailer behind a bus, and were we would use 12 people for the semi, we only use 6 for the trailer.

-  Go to your favorite stores, or even the ones you don't like so much, and look at the amount of stuff now on the clearance racks.  Its huge.  Most stuff I've seen in my life (and yes I do pay attention), and that's because no one bought it over the last 4-6 months. 

-  People going out are going out less, and spending less once they get there.  Spending is down in concerts, nightclubs and restaurants, while revenue is up in small bars and off sales ---- THIS IS NEVER A GOOD SIGN.

The economy in my area is totally dependent on the college and the college students, and it's suffering.  Several businesses are suffering, and a lot of retail stores are having "clearance" sales almost every weekend.  I was at the mall yesterday and there were at least six stores that had huge clearance racks outside their door, but there were dozens of people spending ridiculous amounts of money on Halloween costumes.  ::)

Meanwhile, the local bars and nightclubs are booming, maybe more than usual for a college town of this size.  The grocery store I work at is cutting hours for full-time employees, and many places are not hiring.  I'm lucky I have a job.

Crime is going up too.  In the past two weeks there was a car set on fire in front of my friends apartment, a guy was mugged, and another student got hit in the head with a crowbar.  Things are pretty bad up here, but I'm managing to get by.  Barely.

I'm afraid things might get worse but I'm trying not to think about it.  The past two weeks have been emotionally rough on me and I'm just trying to finish my studies and not worry about the world collapsing around me.

Jenn

oooh im scared! do i has get cookie?

*many drama llama's were slain for this post*

My intention was not to scare anyone. My heart would like someone to say everything is
going to be fine. But my head tells me it's not. Some more observations from every day life:

Go to your Home Depot on a Saturday morning... mine used to be so crowded that it was
not worth going.... now it's like a ghost town. And when your there check out the gobs
of inventory they have... floor to ceiling materials... not a good sign.

Take a look at car lots.... tons of cars sit un-sold, inventory build-up is a bad sign. Read today that
Daimler is shutting down production for the month of December. A WHOLE month.

Houses... you all know about that...

Jobs... how many friends do you have that are unemployed that have never been unemployed?

Food... it takes a lot more to eat this year than last.

Business... the biggest most successful business's in the world (GE comes to mind) are close
to collapse. The Europe banking system is closer to failure than ours. It may just be a matter of
days. In fact I think we will know by the end of the year how this is going to play out. My guess
is the DOW will be around 4000 if not this year, then next. And 2009 is going to be horrible for everyone
if and when that happens.

I'm proud to be a drama queen if one person here reads this and is able to plan ahead and save
themselves some misery (ie don't but that new car, house, change jobs, etc).

Amanda

Quote from: Always Amanda on October 27, 2008, 09:40:11 AM
Also don't believe the government numbers for un-employment and inflation, they are all rigged.

Not only rigged, but also behind.

Unemployment numbers are definitely not using what I would consider the best information, since they don't count people who have flat out given up looking for work, the underemployed and so on. The only way I think they can really be used is to compare across time sicne we have always used the same bad information (this was calculated differently during the depression) but the same during the latest recessions. Of course the goverment doesn't want to count some of the other people as the number would then be higher.

Posted on: October 27, 2008, 01:45:19 pm

---

Amanda- I definitely don't think you are being a drama queen on this. While the part of town I live in has not been hard hit and I do not know anyone who has lost a job that is not the case in the area I moved form. I moved from a small town in California where the housing market collapsed after I moved, sold my house intime barely, and people thought I took a hit by lowering the price substantually, it is now worth 100K less than I sold it for. People there are losing their jobs right and left, my brother moved and left his house empty eventually negatioated a better rate as he was in an upside down mortgage, allowing him to rent it out instead of walk away from it. My sister in law whos family stayed is not in the same boat but looking at forclosure and bankruptcy. I think a lot of people over extended themselves, between credit card debt and refinancing their homes over and over again and now a huge dose of reality is hitting. I think I will just head back to work to feel safe. It's funny my friends think I am being mellow dramatic by getting a job, I think of it as a safety net, the last time I checked you couldn't have too much money.
I think you raise a lot of good points on this issue. It is interesting how some parts of the US are definitely being hit harder than others.

I'm not scared, but then, I am a fool.

We have a little manufacturing in my town. Some is suffering because they relied on making parts for the stupid auto industry. Some are fine because they have customers in different industries.

We have a huge tourist population spring summer fall, in fact, they stay right up until Thanksgiving, then are gone.

We have the usual retail suspects. We have a ton of small businesses. lawyers, real estate people, and other service things like auto repair.

A movie studio is about to be built where they will need several thousand employees.  They have been having open seminars in the memorial hall because there is a big interest.  Once the studio is up and running, there will be a lot of people making more money than they ever did. I guess they pay well. Move here and get a studio gig -
http://www.plymouthrockstudios.com/ (http://www.plymouthrockstudios.com/)
I'll be playing dirty tricks on other applicants to be sure I get in.   :)

Things are tough right now. I have like $30.00 in my bank account. But I see no point in being scared until I find myself up against the wall. I forgot to say I have no debt other than the house, so, if necessary, I can carry a little debt without getting too hurt by it.

I do have to come up with a way to increase my $30.00, though.

Lately I've taken to watching The News Hour on PBS for reasons other than insomnia.  They recently had an interview with Nassim Nicholus Talib, the author of the The Black Swan and Chaos theory, specifly the Butterfy Effect, as relates to the banking industry.   This quote from the book offers insight into the current situation that is pretty scary.  (In Europe it was believed that black swans did not exist until explorers went to Austrailia in the 18th century and discovered there are black swans

Quote from: The Black Swan
Globalization creates interlocking fragility, while reducing volatility and giving the appearance of stability. In other words it creates devastating Black Swans. We have never lived before under the threat of a global collapse. Financial Institutions have been merging into a smaller number of very large banks. Almost all banks are interrelated. So the financial ecology is swelling into gigantic, incestuous, bureaucratic banks – when one fails, they all fall.  The increased concentration among banks seems to have the effect of making financial crises less likely, but when they happen they are more global in scale and hit us very hard. We have moved from a diversified ecology of small banks, with varied lending policies, to a more homogeneous framework of firms that all resemble one another. True, we now have fewer failures, but when they occur ....I shiver at the thought

My own life is pretty safe but we have had layoffs.  By being to lazy to move the money in my 403 (b) out of money market my account is up about 1.5% vs. the market which is down god knows what on the year.  Who says laziness doesn't pay!

My life has not changed one bit. Other than the news and investment statements which I never spend anyway it is the same old, same old.

Perhaps people will be more human when they stop being consumers.

Quote from: lisagurl on October 27, 2008, 03:30:26 PM

Perhaps people will be more human when they stop being consumers.

it would be nice if that was to happen . but some how i very much dubt people will stop being consumers. oh true they might cut back on things

but i dont see them stopping. as it is need for us to be  human. and it is need for us to be consumers too . and why simple to keep things on the

move  :icon_rolleyes2: but if they did stop being consumers i think  every thing will come to  a stand still. which to me is not a good thing

Quote from: lisagurl on October 27, 2008, 03:30:26 PM
My life has not changed one bit. Other than the news and investment statements which I never spend anyway it is the same old, same old.

Perhaps people will be more human when they stop being consumers.

Unlikely to EVER change. dont dream :)

Quoteand why simple to keep things on the

move   but if they did stop being consumers i think  every thing will come to  a stand still. which to me is not a good thing

People do not need most of the toys and entertainment that just gets thrown away. If much better quality things where made that lasted a lifetime and people worked less hours, only things like food and health care would be consumed. There would be more free time to enjoy human relations and learn. Also there would not be a need for the fast pace life that is not human. You can not buy your way to happiness. you just get tired of it and throw it away.

Quote from: lisagurl on October 27, 2008, 08:19:08 PM

Quoteand why simple to keep things on the

move   but if they did stop being consumers i think  every thing will come to  a stand still. which to me is not a good thing

People do not need most of the toys and entertainment that just gets thrown away. If much better quality things where made that lasted a lifetime and people worked less hours, only things like food and health care would be consumed. There would be more free time to enjoy human relations and learn. Also there would not be a need for the fast pace life that is not human. You can not buy your way to happiness. you just get tired of it and throw it away.

lisa lisa ok ok  i know where your  trying to go with this . and that would be greatto have the old days back again . but i hate to tell you this too lisa  it

ant going to happen it,s way to late for it . even tho granted it would be nice . but sigh that is now just a dream of the past . and to think that it used to

be the life of only the rich and famous . that just got tired of things and toss them away like some boaring  little play toy . and move on the newst thilling

toy,s . but like i said lisa it would be great to have this back again but i dont see it happening in any life times now

Old days = fail, i LIKE being able to buy what sterio i want, not pick ONE, how do you expect people who work in the shops that sell these sterios to live if they dont have to sell them? and the makers? many jobs, consumerism is a long chain that wont ever end...

I am worried about the repercussions of the bailout.  I think that we may very well see the bottom drop out.  It is not going to be pretty.  But we as a county have survived worst times and we will again.

I am hoping that Obama and the Democrates will do better than the Republican have.

We shall see.

Nobody needs a stereo or TV they are mind numbing and keep you away from human relations and questioning things. They produce Alfa brain waves as opposed to beta waves of being focused. They are the major cause of attention deficit disorder. The public got addicted to the Alfa waves just like nicotine and will experience withdrawal symptoms for a while, the major corporations have done research on this and created this habit to control people like slaves. Welcome to the world of psychological mind control brought to you by the research of big money corporations and Government. Now all go and be good consumers and do not stop buying as you provide slave labor without question for the leaders. Do you not know any other way as they must have brainwashed you. It starts at home in front of the tube and is reinforced in school which is designed to produce workers.

Quote from: lisagurl on October 27, 2008, 09:13:25 PM
Nobody needs a stereo or TV they are mind numbing and keep you away from human relations and questioning things. They produce Alfa brain waves as opposed to beta waves of being focused. They are the major cause of attention deficit disorder. The public got addicted to the Alfa waves just like nicotine and will experience withdrawal symptoms for a while, the major corporations have done research on this and created this habit to control people like slaves. Welcome to the world of psychological mind control brought to you by the research of big money corporations and Government. Now all go and be good consumers and do not stop buying as you provide slave labor without question for the leaders. Do you not know any other way as they must have brainwashed you. It starts at home in front of the tube and is reinforced in school which is designed to produce workers.

your too much lisa too much  :) yes the tv and stereo can be mind numbeing . but they can also be a good place of information too.

like both the tv gives you the weather and the news of things that are going on in the world . and that could be made as a good debate

now but back then  it was not very usefull for a debate . as a better debate would have been used back then for the

attention deficit disorder. would have been  they are  dreaming of new places they have not been to yet or places they have seen

or the oldy but good they are just in dream land. and  it could be like nicotine or something strong say like coke or dust or weed .

which if that was the case  . that would not be a very pretty picture to see . thats if they could handle getting off the stuff in the

frist place with out loseing there minds or going mad . and besides that mind control  is too boring all you get in the end is a bunch of

robots . if wanted that would we have not made them by now  humm?? and  i dont think so i like it where iam at right now just fine and

dandy thank you very much  :icon_yes: :icon_suspicious: and there are many ways to know  and many things to learn and see as well

as do . and na they cant brainwashed us they got to find us frist for them to do that . and they ant had any luck so far  and i dont

think they will  :eusa_think: :eusa_think: and here all this time school  was a place to learn and maybe gain some great wisdom or

insight  . but lets say if  we was to do all this that your talking about lisa . do you really really honestly think it would really really

work or is it just a shot in the dark now i mean if  we did say distory the internet and tv radio . and all the other consumer stuff

and just went back to the way it was . dont you think they would not try to stop us from trying to reach this goal that we have

placed in front of our selfs to stop this consumersings . or would they be so consumed  from the withdrals that they would not be

able to stop us  humm interesting eh lisa  :eusa_think: :eusa_think: :eusa_think:

Quote from: lisagurl on October 27, 2008, 09:13:25 PM
Nobody needs a stereo or TV they are mind numbing and keep you away from human relations and questioning things. They produce Alfa brain waves as opposed to beta waves of being focused. They are the major cause of attention deficit disorder. The public got addicted to the Alfa waves just like nicotine and will experience withdrawal symptoms for a while, the major corporations have done research on this and created this habit to control people like slaves. Welcome to the world of psychological mind control brought to you by the research of big money corporations and Government. Now all go and be good consumers and do not stop buying as you provide slave labor without question for the leaders. Do you not know any other way as they must have brainwashed you. It starts at home in front of the tube and is reinforced in school which is designed to produce workers.

I guess I might as well catch a cab to The Bridge.  Scratch one urban wage slave from this Brave New World.

Quote from: lisagurl on October 27, 2008, 09:13:25 PM
Nobody needs a stereo or TV they are mind numbing and keep you away from human relations and questioning things. They produce Alfa brain waves as opposed to beta waves of being focused. They are the major cause of attention deficit disorder. The public got addicted to the Alfa waves just like nicotine and will experience withdrawal symptoms for a while, the major corporations have done research on this and created this habit to control people like slaves. Welcome to the world of psychological mind control brought to you by the research of big money corporations and Government. Now all go and be good consumers and do not stop buying as you provide slave labor without question for the leaders. Do you not know any other way as they must have brainwashed you. It starts at home in front of the tube and is reinforced in school which is designed to produce workers.

Dude... paranoia much....?

the tv is not a mind control device to produce good workers...

it shows shows you like... en-ter-tain-ment i belive its called...

I'm afraid the luddite aproach to life and philosphy is wearing rather thin. and the drama llamas are tired hon.

Please, don't be afraid of what will happen in the near future. Things are going to get tight. They might get really tight.  But we won't have runs on the banks.  You might want to make sure you keep a couple hundred in cash for an emergency.  That way you can put gas in your car if there is a cash crunch.

Obama's tax plans have no chance to be implemented until 2010 at the minimum.  The budget for 2009 is already in play and we'll go into debt another 550 billion dollars.  I'm sick of hearng about tax cuts for special interests, middle class, and the wealthy.  We need to collect enough money to pay the bills or cut back to match revenues.  Going back to the tax model of the 90's is perfectly doable and shouldn't affect small business the way the McCain campaign is trying to claim.  I say put a hold on it for now and make adjustments for the next budget period.  I'm pretty sure that's what Obama would do.  Also, he's going to need someone in Congress propose the new legislation and it needs to be approved. Remember, the president really can't raise or lower taxes.... that is the job of the legislature.

The taxes under current discussion are the "capital gains" taxes.  The wealthiest of Americans make their money in capital gains. That is in selling securities and property.  In most cases, small businesses have nothing to do with "capital gains" taxes.  I know.  I ran a small business for years and that tax cut provided NOTHING for my small business. 

Here's the thing.  Consider that the capital gains rate was cut by Bush from 20 percent to 15 percent.  Someone working for a salary will pay up to a  33 tax rate of her salary (at 250,000 dollars per year).   So the rich making their money from their portfolio only pay 15 percent and the working stiff pays 33 percent.

Warren Buffet admits that he pays a lower percentage of his income than his secretary.  McCain wants to cut capital gains again from 15 percent to 7.5 percent.  Now, tell me.  Is that fair?  How in the HELL does that affect small business?  This TAX applies to investment portfolios!  Sheesh. Nope.... no small business in there.

So don't worry about the tax plan of Obama.  His plan actually makes more sense than McCain's which runs up the national debt.  It is NOT a tax hike on small business.  It is a readjustment for those with investment portfolios to the levels of the 1990's.

The Bush cut from 20 to 15 percent cost 300 billion in lost revenues.  And now, McCain's idea will more than double that.

Consider now the budget defecit of 550 billion.  That 300 billion would come in handy right?  And what do these people do with all that money that they no longer pay in taxes?  Do they hire people?  Are you kidding?  I've traded securities.  It's my personal gig.  I'd never hire someone with that money?   What would I have them do?  It was never connected to my small business.

So, if Obama can get his tax plan implemented, we'll roll back to tax levels of the 90's.  Frankly, the 90's were pretty good for me.  Everyone was working and I made more money then than any other time in my life.

But, if you are still going to be worried, do something about it.  Keep some extra cash on hand, stock up your pantry with food that won't spoil (and stuff that you will eat), and figure out what you need to do to get by in diverse situations.  For example, it's a good exercise to figure out how you would live for a couple of days without electricity.

Cindi

Quotethe TV is not a mind control device to produce good workers...

it shows shows you like... en-ter-tain-ment i belive its called...

Even the thought of losing the "nicotine" of the consumption God causes a panic.

Do you not know how to entertain yourself? Oh that must be a skill of the past.

There already have been bank runs, the difference is the Fed is willing to print ANY amount of money to prevent
a banking collapse. Just look at the Fed banking numbers and you can see how much money has left the system.
But the Fed MUST print all this money. Printing money like they are is very bad but it's the best of two evils, let the
banks collapse or trade for hyper inflation next year, or the year after. Adding to the money supply creates
inflation and allows everyone: government, business and personal debt to be paid off with cheaper dollars. But it also
means we pay more, much more in this case for our cost of living. And wages tend not to increase at the same rate as
the cost of living and you end up with stagflation like the 1970's at the very best and an inflationary depression at
the worst. These problems the world faces in the next two or three years are epic in proportion to 1929 and the
Great Depression. And I think it's bigger than McCain and Obama. I think regardless of who wins all they can do is go from
crisis to crisis until the whole thing implodes.

For a minute think about how we compare to the independent society in 1929:

In 1929 there was almost non-existent taxes and a big government to support

In 1929 there was little infrastructure that needed to be maintained like roads, bridges, government buildings

In 1929 most people lived within walking distance of work

In 1929 we did not depend on energy (electricity and oil) and technology for heat and transportation

In 1929 ALL the oil we used was produced here

In 1929 imports of cheap goods was non-existent, everything was Made in America

In 1929 jobs were not outsourced overseas to cheap labor

In 1929 most of the US spoke English and felt they had some stake in the country as a whole, there
was deep national pride.

In 1929 we did not have a huge influx of illegal immigrants that are poorly assimilated, locked out of the tax system,
yet drag down our schools and healthcare facilities and don't even bother to learn our culture, language and ideals.

In 1929 poverty was not anywhere near 20% and there was no welfare or medicare drags on the economy

In 1929 we did not have greedy healthcare system run at huge profits for basic healthcare needs.

In 1929 we did not spend an average of $12,000 a year on health insurance to insure those basic needs.

In 1929 we did not have a baby boom generation about to retire and have to support on social security because thier
retirement is gone with the crash of the stock market.

In 1929 most families were somewhat self sufficient, they hunted, grew their own food, raised chickens, etc.

In 1929 we did not have a huge war on terrorism going on with no clear enemy and no clear end

In 1929 personal and public debt was non-existent

In 1929 we did not have rampant crime and thugs in our cities

1n 1929 we did not have huge prison systems

In 1929 we did not have a corrupt political system (regardless of who is in power)


I could go on and on but based on this view I think if things get bad they will spiral down very quickly becuase
I think our society today is much weaker than in 1929. It is clear to me at least that the remainder of
my life will not be anywhere near as big a party as the first half.

It's hard for me not to look at things and think how sad for everyone and how bleak things look. Please,
please let me be wrong.

Amanda

Quote from: lisagurl on October 28, 2008, 09:35:19 AM

Quotethe TV is not a mind control device to produce good workers...

it shows shows you like... en-ter-tain-ment i belive its called...

Even the thought of losing the "nicotine" of the consumption God causes a panic.

Do you not know how to entertain yourself? Oh that must be a skill of the past.

well yes... i just put my fingers he... wait a minute....

yeah, in all seriousness i do... i rarely watch tv... so im sorry, your case falls flat. I watch tv shows occasionally, some specifics like NCIS... Im an airsofter... i make gear and upgrade the rifles and custom build some, i mod gta... so yes, i know how to entertain myself, but tbh, TV is just another way to do that, sorry, but you're just spouting utter crap, and turning any reply into some form of agreememt for you....

btw, im a smoker, and dont really give a turnip ;)

While I don't think that TV is brainwashing, I do think it is a Plug-In Drug¹, one that does have significant and measurable effects on the people who watch it and escalating with time watched.  It is designed to deliver ideas and notions that support the mass consumption/mass production economic and social system on which the modern United States is built.  In other nations it has a far more profound political message, perhaps in others I've not seen a social or educational message - its possible.  But television in the US creates desire for products (material goods and services) and provides an easy way to satiate that desire.

The focus of the majority of programing (not my word, it's what the TV folk call it) is designed to keep you docile and ignorant.  The not so subtle message is that a) there is nothing wrong with the world, the problem is you, and it can be solved by product X, or service Y, and b) if there is something wrong with the world - and we're not saying there is - it's beyond your ability to fix it or contribute to the solution so you should just sit back and let the experts handle it, after all, they have your best interests at heart.

There does seem to be a high value placed on finishing life at home in your spare time.  One aspect of heavy TV watching is a marked increase in paranoia where TV watchers radically overestimate the amount of violence in the world, and their chances of encountering it.  To people who watch TV, the world is a much scarier place then it is to those who are not watching TV and living in the world.  Docile and ignorant.

Also, as one spends more and more time with TV, it becomes more and more (this only makes sense) the way, manner and method of your reference to life itself.  You begin to see tv solutions as the only solutions, tv relationships as a model for real relationships, and the extremely limited tv event horizon (no past, no future) as the only event horizon.  You begin to see life as a reflection of tv (comparing real life events to tv episodes, identifying with characters from tv rather than people you know, speaking a special tv talk that only the viewers of that show use) rather than the other way around.

I also think that its effect is strongest on those who need it least.  What used to be passed of as being 'shy' is now social anxiety disorder or several other things, all of which tend to make people more introspective then they should be, and less inclined to socialize and interact with other people.  TV for these people increases both of those tendencies, and can, and I think does, have a very unhealthy effect of increasing isolation.  Its much easier to have friends on TV, because, as we all know, friends in real life can be a real pain in the ass sometimes.  How much easier to withdraw into some fantasy world and avoid the entire messy business.   

Take your own survey though.  I'm sure you will find, as I have, that the higher the level of education, or success/achievement the lower the frequency of watching.  Busy people simply don't have the time to devote to watching it, as watching it seems to take up most of your free time.³  I'm also sure that you will be able to note that some of the most poorly socially adjusted people you meet watch a buttload of TV.


As for that other pesky issue, poor John McCain is going to be crying 'the economy ate my Presidential Inauguration' the almost psychedelic numbers out of the financial industry on just about everything....

The entire apparatus of allocation and distribution is out of whack.  The problem is not isolated, but systematic.  It affects not just a few products, but pretty much production/consumption across the board.  That stereo that Rachel wants is pretty much a global product.  With components coming from all over the world, being assembled in one place, shipped to another for sale with management and administration in a third place.  We don't yet know if the increased globalization of production and consumption will shift the fallout to a larger field and cushion the fall, or if wave upon wave of minor failures in remote sectors will have a ripple effect making any sort of recovery harder.

But, there is no doubt that things are out of whack, and our ability to control events is not exactly winning against events at the current time.  To think that any man-made system is so perfect as to be 'unsinkable' is not realistic, as all systems, structures and institutions can and do go awry.  Two of histories great lessons are:

Things can always crash and burn, the 'unsinkable' Titanic not only sank, it did so on its very first voyage.  Markets have failed before.  Depressions have happened.  Hyper-inflation can happen.  Runs on the banks can happen.

Things can always get worse.  As Bpb Dylan says: Just when you think you've lost everything, you find out you can always lose a little more.  So, where it might not be as bad as '29, the fifty-fifty odds say it could be worse.


A lot of the impact of what is happening, and what's about to happen, will (as all things do,) fall more heavily on specific groups.  Professional administrators are not going to do well - there simply is going to be less to administrate.  The number of jobs in the financial sector is waning daily, and there is no end in sight.  Jobs closely tied to government support are going to decrease in both number and pay as the debt of the US rises as tax revenues fall.  Current Federal payments of the service on the debt (interest only) account for 25% of the revenue off the top, and that is going to be closer to 35% after we let the big banks write some huge ass blank checks for themselves and the true cost of the Iran war comes home.  So people counting on some government job (and they are good jobs) are going to be in the same boat as the financial industry types, the construction/real estate folks, auto guys, and the retail industry.

Its already become a lot harder to find work then it was 3 years ago, and compared to the 90s its almost insane.  Competition for fewer jobs will lead to gradual reduction of wages and lower the economic cycle further.  But a lot of people are going to be unemployed in the short run I think.

Some people will do very well.  Traditional recession/depression jobs, repo man, car repair and auto parts (the fewer new cars you sell, the greater the rise in repairs and parts), cleaning/janitor, traditional crafts: carp, plumb, cook, and the rest will all do, if not well, at least OK.  Entertainment and drugs (liquor, beer, pot, pills) will go up too.  Though ending the Prohibition against marijuana is a possible solution to some problems, like revenue, much the same as the Great Depression pretty much ended Prohibition the first time around.

The new crafts: insulation, solar installs, networks might also do OK.

Worse off, people who bought houses in the last 8 years, but most likely the last 18.  In Los Angels, according to today's paper, home prices fell 26.7% in the year ending in August, according to a widely watched index of prices.  Home prices fall 17% nationwide.  That's a considerable drop.  Few people can afford to be paying on a house that is now worth only 75% of what they payed for it.


What I do see happening is more along the lines of the people who study such things, like Kunstler  Long a critic of what was going on, all that financial antics and shenanigans, he has been writing about it for decades now, and this is what he sees:
If the financial system completes its self-destruction -- and that's looking more and more like a real possibility -- there will be several pretty awful consequences. One is that the United States will be forced to declare bankruptcy by repudiating its own debt. All those who took refuge in US Treasury bonds and bills will be like folks who sought shelter from a tornado in their out-house. That would go hand-in-hand with a massive currency inflation that is likely to follow the current phase of compressive liquidating deflation -- in which every possible asset is being sold off for less than its face value. That process is self-limiting due to the finite supply of real salable assets. The trillions of dollars injected into system while this is happening must eventually snap-back as people shed the last fungible article and compete for necessary commodities like food and fuel with dollars that are suddenly plentiful but worthless.


So, the trillions of dollars that have somehow disappeared in the last few years (where did they go?  No one seems to know.) and the trillions more that are lining up to follow that other money into oblivion, are going to make us poorer, not richer.  What will prosper are real people who have real skills and make real products.

The Other Problem: (Kunstler again)
As we discover ourselves to be a much poorer nation, one of my correspondents put it: "the bogus risk-swapping economy must be replaced by a net value-added economy." That means actually making things, growing things, and rebuilding things, and that can only begin to happen if we do not stupidly sucker ourselves into a war with other nations who are liable to be extremely ticked off at us for destroying the global economy, but also competing with us for a dwindling supply of resources that are not equitably distributed around the world.

It's that entire a dwindling supply of resources that are not equitably distributed around the world that both bothers and scares me.


These problems of a) major financial institutions failing - and we're talking belly up stuff, not 'readjustment' b) a major shutdown of two of American's leading industries, autos and homes - and they are important not just for financial reasons, but both have high labor and high consumption levels associated with them c) The closing of major retailers, Comp USA, Mervin's, and high inventory levels (the overstocked clearance racks) indicate a much lower level of consumer consumption, the most basic driver of the economy.

Together these three events happening at the same time bode ill, for all three can reinforce each other creating a vortex effect.  Or, put another way, what is going on is synergistic to itself, and each individual problem in one sector becomes other problems in other sectors.  While I don't quite see the end of the world looming up on us, its just prudent thinking to assume that things might get worse for some time out.  These events are not without their ramifications.


Stand there on the deck of the Titanic and keep on telling yourself its only drama llamas who see bad times ahead for a lot of people and are scurrying to the lifeboats.  Keep on thinking that it's unsinkable and we will not have to undergo some major readjustment, perhaps even at the most fundamental and structural levels of Western Civ.  I'll have the band strike up a stirring version of "Nearer My God To Thee" on my way past them.  But you know, if you wait past the time where your shoes are getting wet, its going to be too late.




1. Millions of Americans are so hooked on television that they fit the criteria for substance abuse as defined in the official psychiatric manual, according to Rutgers University psychologist and TV-Free America board member Robert Kubey. Heavy TV viewers exhibit five dependency symptoms--two more than necessary to arrive at a clinical diagnosis of substance abuse. These include: 1) using TV as a sedative; 2) indiscriminate viewing; 3) feeling loss of control while viewing; 4) feeling angry with oneself for watching too much; 5) inability to stop watching; and 6) feeling miserable when kept from watching. Norman Herr

2. Frank Zappa, from the Barking Pumpkin Record's warning label.

3. In 2000 and 2001, an American household spent on average seven hours and 39 minutes watching TV, which grew to eight hours and 14 minutes in and after 2005. TV viewing time for an individual American aged two and above grew from four hours and a quarter during 2000 and 2001, to four hours and 34 minutes during 2006 and 2007.

Amanda,

In 1929, we had a massive run on the banks.  My grandfather had gone to his bank a month before the run with the money to pay off his large farm. He had 640 acres.  The bank convinced him to keep his mortgage and use the money he had as capital to run the farm. When the bank folded, they forclosed on his loan, even though he had the money to pay it off in the SAME bank.

There won't be a run on the banks like that.  We've got safety nets to prevent it.

The lack of infrastructure also helped form the depression.  There wasn't a total lack of money. But no one would sell anything.

No one had a vested interest in the US keeping its economy healthy.  Now the whole world participates in keeping us healthy.

There have always been immigrants here.  There have always been people who don't speak English... take the native AMERICANS for example.  The fact is... immigrants are here legally since we don't deport them.  If we want illegals to leave, then pay a living wage for the work they do. American citizens will flock to those jobs and they will leave in droves.

The health care system as imperfect as it is, keeps the machinery of consumption moving.  Each person is a "human resource".  It's in the best interests of corporate american to keep it's worker bees working.

However... you did hit the nail on the head with the massive debt we are accumulating. Everyone ignores the national debt which is the sum of each year's budget deficit.  It will approach 12 trillion dollars next year.  Tax revenues will be in the neighborhood of 1.4 trillion dollars.  We'll spend 550 billion dollars more than the revenues.  I see a bankruptcy in the future if we don't get this thing under control.  With that said however, in adjusted dollars, the economy (in terms of national debt) was worse off right after the second worl war.  We had massive debt incured from the war and we somehow managed to get through it.... Hmmmm... FDR's New Deal worked.  He spent massive amounts of money to build and improve infrastructure.

So... this all relates to what could happen within the next couple of years.  It looks like Obama is going to win the presidency. He's going to have a very difficult time uniting the country after it has so "eloquently divided" by the campaign smears from you know who.  There will be many who feel so strongly about the lies and distortions that they'll have a hard time supporting the new president.  And guess where all those "red" states are....

Right down the wind corridor, the richest natural resource that we might have, the best wind resource in the world.  A New New Deal, massive in scope, could be put into play building and installing wind turbines.  We'll need to beef up the delivery system of all that electricity too.  We can deliver up to 20 percent of our nations electricity needs within just a few years.  We'll put lots of people to work in those red states.  By the time we're into it a few years, those people will support the president 100 percent.

As a united country, we can do anything.  I still believe that we are the most ambitious, pig headed, and smartest country in the world.  We'll get through this.  We can be better than before. We have to want "that" though instead of the divisiveness and hatred we have now.

Cindi

Quotebtw, im a smoker, and dont really give a turnip

That explains everything.

yes, it explains why i have grey eyes, wavey hair, why im 5'10.... you're amazing lisa.... sorry, but go away... your drama is just silly and unhelpful.

Though it seems impossible to unite the nation, crisis and leadership have been known to do it.  For sure on the first, still to see on the second.  The damage done though by a couple of generations of division politics and people like Bill, Rush et.all. is not going to be easy to undo either.

I'm not the only one who believes we are on the precipice of a major problem... major in that
"you ain't seen nothin yet" type of problem. But my feeling is that many, many people do not get how epic these
times are and how massive the problems are. It's just business as usual. I promise, I'm a rational, same, positive person but
the events of the past two months are a once in a life time thing and I'm totally freaked out by what I see and the calm
demeanor of the general public. These are extreme predictions for sure and I recognize that but even if we only get 30%
there it's going to be painful.

One major problem that I did not mention is the coming debacle in mortgage resets coming next year. I guess I'm
trying to ignore it. But just like the bulk of the sub-prime mortgages reset last year, a whole new wave of Alt A resets
are coming in 2009. Most of these that will be resetting were used to buy the million dollar plus homes. Since most
of these homes have declined significantly there is no way out for borrowers that cannot afford to keep paying the
higher mortgages. It stands to be an even bigger mess than sub-prime.

QuoteSome people will do very well.  Traditional recession/depression jobs, repo man, car repair and auto parts (the fewer new cars you sell, the greater the rise in repairs and parts), cleaning/janitor, traditional crafts: carp, plumb, cook, and the rest will all do, if not well, at least OK.  Entertainment and drugs (liquor, beer, pot, pills) will go up too.  Though ending the Prohibition against marijuana is a possible solution to some problems, like revenue, much the same as the Great Depression pretty much ended Prohibition the first time around.

I think for a while Tekla they might thrive but eventually if things are bad enough even the "recession proof" jobs will disappear.

QuoteIn 1929, we had a massive run on the banks.  My grandfather had gone to his bank a month before the run with the money to pay off his large farm. He had 640 acres.  The bank convinced him to keep his mortgage and use the money he had as capital to run the farm. When the bank folded, they foreclosed on his loan, even though he had the money to pay it off in the SAME bank.

There won't be a run on the banks like that.  We've got safety nets to prevent it.

I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree. Cindi... bank runs are already happening. A bank run did in Wacovia
and BOA. No one is calling them bank runs to prevent a total panic and collapse so the Fed is buying into banks
to re-capitalize them.  The government buying into banks... that is epic beyond words.  And it cannot go on
forever and there is no clear way out of it. Just because you do not see lines outside a bank does not mean it's not
happening. Just take a look at the capital requirement report from the Fed. There is no capital left... banks are
broke, they are insolvent, they have just not told the public yet.

QuoteThere have always been immigrants here.  There have always been people who don't speak English... take the native AMERICANS for example.  The fact is... immigrants are here legally since we don't deport them.  If we want illegals to leave, then pay a living wage for the work they do. American citizens will flock to those jobs and they will leave in droves.

The last large immigrant influx was in the late 1800 and they came from European countries. But they assimilated, they
learned our culture, they learned English,  they became Americans. Today you have Spanish speaking culture where the US
is just another state of Mexico. It has gotten so bad and so many do not speak or read English that schools are forced
to hire Spanish speaking teachers, business's are forced to advertise and assist in Spanish. I was shocked to see
a complete flyer printed in Spanish for a Home Depot on a recent vacation... in an American city, and no english version was
to be found. And they wave the Mexican flag around like this is their country. I grew up with Mexican Americans, some of
my best friends were and are Mexican Americans and I can assure you they are as appalled by this as anyone.

I long for the days right after 911. We were one nation, indivisible and I was proud to be an American again. But
that feeling faded quickly and it's been downhill from there. I'm embarrassed by our leaders, Republican and Democratic
alike and I think they ALL should be voted out, every last one of them. I'm also embarrassed by the media, the reporters
that are so important in a Democracy have all dropped the ball.

QuoteThe health care system as imperfect as it is, keeps the machinery of consumption moving.  Each person is a "human resource".  It's in the best interests of corporate American to keep it's worker bees working.

The system is totally corrupt and broken. Healthcare is a very unique need. It's not like other services and when doctors are
more interested in profit than providing care you can call it broken. It was not broken 30 years ago. When I was young
families did not need huge medical policies. You would pay you family doctor what you could and pay out the rest. Everyone
got affordable healthcare. Yes the doctors worked long hours, yes they were underpaid. But now doctors are among the
richest of our society, most work three days a week and people go without healthcare,  paying huge premiums for
bad service. The US stands alone in this debacle, every other country has some type of plan where every person is
covered. It's a basic right.

QuoteFDR's New Deal worked.  He spent massive amounts of money to build and improve infrastructure.

The country had very little debt at that time. The US cannot spend it's way out of this mess with all the
other existing obligations.

QuoteAs a united country, we can do anything.  I still believe that we are the most ambitious, pig headed, and smartest country in the world.  We'll get through this.  We can be better than before. We have to want "that" though instead of the divisiveness and hatred we have now.

Your positive comments are inspiring Cindi but I see it a little different, at least right now. I see lots of finger
pointing as Tekla says, lots of hatred.  I hope we can all look back at this thread in two or three years and get a good
laugh. But right now I just don't see it being laughable.

Amanda

QuoteMost of these that will be resetting were used to buy the million dollar plus homes. Since most
of these homes have declined significantly there is no way out for borrowers that cannot afford to keep paying the
higher mortgages. It stands to be an even bigger mess than sub-prime.

The facts are that most people that can afford to buy a million plus homes can do it in cash and do not need below prime loans . They can get low interest money on a signature alone. Those that do take advantage of the low interest rates invest that mortgage money in higher yielding more risky investments. The interest is also deductible and those people (million plus) are less than 5% of the loans out their and are not Freddy or Fanny loans. Many problems came from the get rich quick schemes that people would buy homes at foreclosed prices and flip them to make big profits. Now they are holding the bag as like the pyramid scams the last on board get took. Still all this is not the major problem. The problem is the investment insurance derivatives that encouraged banks to make loans to noncredit worthy people because they bought the insurance and then sold the mortgages. Well the people who sold the insurance only had pennies on the dollar to pay out. As they defaulted, investment houses are left with bad paper with no value and the knowledge that any claims to recoup their investment are far in the future.

What will solve the problem is for a world wide minimum wage which makes labor all over the world worth the same. Then jobs would move back into this country goods would be more expensive and it would level the playing field between the lowest and highest paid people.

QuoteThe facts are that most people that can afford to buy a million plus homes can do it in cash and do not need below prime loans .

Below prime loans if you are talking about sub prime loans are made to borrowers that have poor payment histories. The
Alt-A (and Option ARMS) resets that I was talking about are not sub-prime, they were made to worthy borrowers on large houses, some for flipping purposes but many for their primary home. In the past few years because of the run-up in real estate  prices many people that had good credit and incomes but did not have a million dollars were forced to use these loans to afford properties. I'm not saying it was a good decision but it has nothing to do with sub prime other than they are
going bad because of the mortgage meltdown.

QuoteThe interest is also deductible and those people (million plus) are less than 5% of the loans out their and are not Freddy or Fanny loans.

About 3 million US borrowers have Alt-A mortgages totaling $1 trillion, compared with $855 billion of subprime loans outstanding, according to Inside Mortgage Finance, a trade publication in Maryland.

You can see what I mean, do a search on "ARM reset graph" and you will come up with this:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_pMscxxELHEg/RxzD0s_7EYI/AAAAAAAABB4/ljDSXZhMG3o/s1600-h/IMFresets.jpg (http://bp3.blogger.com/_pMscxxELHEg/RxzD0s_7EYI/AAAAAAAABB4/ljDSXZhMG3o/s1600-h/IMFresets.jpg)

You can see how the resets continue into 2011.

QuoteThe problem is the investment insurance derivatives that encouraged banks to make loans to noncredit worthy people because they bought the insurance and then sold the mortgages. Well the people who sold the insurance only had pennies on the dollar to pay out. As they defaulted, investment houses are left with bad paper with no value and the knowledge that any claims to recoup their investment are far in the future.

I did not want to get into the nuts and bolts of the credit default swaps because peoples eyes really glaze over but CDS's are what destroyed Leman Brothers and threatens to bring down the whole system. The size of the derivatives problem is massive and the coming defaults on the Alt-A mortgage will set off a wave of defaults up the chain of the CDO's and land at the feet
of the institutions and banks that issued the CDS's who in turn bought CDS's to cover themselves. The real problem is NO one knows
who has exposure to CDS's and who does not. Often times the banks do not even know because they cannot vouch for the
CDS's that cover their loans. That is why banks refuse to loan to each other. It is one big fubared system ready to implode.

QuoteWhat will solve the problem is for a world wide minimum wage which makes labor all over the world worth the same. Then jobs would move back into this country goods would be more expensive and it would level the playing field between the lowest and highest paid people

It is simply impossible to pay the same wage in the US and a country such as Taiwan, China, or even Mexico where the
minimum wage is around .50 cents and even less in Asia.

Amanda

Quote from: Always Amanda on October 28, 2008, 01:21:55 PMBut now doctors are among the
richest of our society

Actually that is not true.
Yes, some docs are VERY well paid, mostly surgeons, specialists, and those who have been doing this for a long time or sold their soul.

The average doc has far too many bills and is underpaid by the same HMO that is ripping you off. Malpractice insurance, deals by the HMO's and the cost of schooling brings their income down significantly. Once they pay off school they do pretty good.


Many have gotten fed up with the whole system and have returned to the older style of family doc who takes cash and only what you can pay. Any major issues they let the hospitals and local charity deal with the bills. They still do not make a lot, but at least they can treat customers fairly.

Thanks for the link,  do you have a good one on credit swap defaults? I don't think there could ever be a world minimum wage. As you stated Asian countries earn as little as $50 a month for full time plus work. If we tried to impose a minimum wage there comperable to the rest of the world it would throw things all out of wack there. (financialy and politicaly)
Myles
yes I have a spelling issue in that I am horrible at it!

QuoteThanks for the link,  do you have a good one on credit swap defaults?

You mean like what they are? This is a pretty good explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_default_swap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_default_swap)

I think they are so esoteric that no one understands them enough to post much about them. You know they
are new... I think they were offered starting around 2000 but don't quote me on that. They are totally unregulated
and a black hole as far as transparency. And there seem to be layer upon layer with cross guarantees and links
back and forth. Once you delve into them you realize how big a mess they have become.

QuoteThe average doc has far too many bills and is underpaid by the same HMO that is ripping you off. Malpractice insurance, deals by the HMO's and the cost of schooling brings their income down significantly. Once they pay off school they do pretty good.

I'm not sure what would entail average doctor. But all the ones I know, even the non-specialists do "pretty good".
(And by bills do you mean a "doctors" lifestyle?) And "pretty good" ranks them among the best in the country, some
complain that ONLY 200K is not rich, but compared to other careers it's pretty good as you say and better than most.
But in my opinion that income comes at a cost and that is to provide the best care possible, but instead they seem
to want to take the most time off and milk the system for maximum profit. Don't get me wrong, there is blame everywhere
in the healthcare system but doctors have just as much as anyone.

Oh... just dropped off a deposit at my bank drive up and there was a new notice on the tube
that reminded me I had not mentioned it. The FDIC limit was raised to 250K from 100K. That alone
tells me there were silent bank runs going on.

And don't be fooled by the "Second best day ever" on the DOW today. It will be sell off as quickly as it went up today and
possibly severely even as soon as later this week.

Amanda

Quote from: Always Amanda on October 28, 2008, 04:13:04 PM
I'm not sure what would entail average doctor. But all the ones I know, even the non-specialists do "pretty good".
(And by bills do you mean a "doctors" lifestyle?) And "pretty good" ranks them among the best in the country, some
complain that ONLY 200K is not rich, but compared to other careers it's pretty good as you say and better than most.
But in my opinion that income comes at a cost and that is to provide the best care possible, but instead they seem
to want to take the most time off and milk the system for maximum profit. Don't get me wrong, there is blame everywhere
in the healthcare system but doctors have just as much as anyone.

Oh... just dropped off a deposit at my bank drive up and there was a new notice on the tube
that reminded me I had not mentioned it. The FDIC limit was raised to 250K from 100K. That alone
tells me there were silent bank runs going on.

Most people only see the flashier docs.
I am not saying they are poor, If the loans are paid off, they do pretty good, but until then they don't live like kings. People seem to think being a doctor means you can write your own checks and it is far from that in most cases.

Many are to blame though, take a look at who does the decision making at the HMO and such... Doctors, the well paid ones.



And there was some runs on Wamu. An acquaintance/brothers friend was unable to get his money out.

You know kids.... I think that we pretty much agree that we are standing knee deep in the you know what.  You know something else?  We have some really smart people here. I wish that "Joe six pack" or "Joe the plumber" had one tenth the understanding that individuals here had of current events.

Let's see what sort of mandate we have for change next Tuesday.  I have high hopes.

Cindi

Though its not the most important election ever, its the most important since 1968 (and how fine did that one turn out?).

Everyone should vote.  Too many things are about to change one way or the other, and this is your choice (to a degree).