Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So my gender therapist (the only one in the city, of course) requires that patients live full time as the desired gender for 6 mos. to 1 year before he will consider giving hormones. To me, this seems sort of cruel, but he basically has me by the balls (no pun intended).

Although, he did offer to refer me to an endo, who will do the prescribing, so maybe the endo will be more liberal about this?

I really don't want to start buying off the internet or something like that. Even though I won't be taking hormones for a while (i'm just on spiro for now), I would like to know if I have any other options your ppl might know about.

Basically, he wants to know that I'm serious about the whole process and that I'm stable enough to go through with it. But I might be able to budge him or the endo a bit if I keep seeing him, and show him that I can go through with this. I just hate not knowing what he thinks about me, and I don't want to have to act too fake!

Thanks,

Chrissi

It was a year after RLT that i was first prescribed HRT.  And your right its a horrible system that some therapists use, but in terms of options there aren't many.  Therapists can set any rules they want and we can't do anything about that, but hope that your therapist decides 6 months of RLT is long enough for you. 

Most therapists will want to check out general health before prescribing hrt, so that could be why he wants you to see an endo.

Other option would be to change therapist (in a different city if necessary).

hi chrissi.  my experience was much like jenny's.  i was about a year 24/7 before i started hrt.  i could have before, but it was my own reticense that prevented it.  i think the hbsoc, or wpath now, recommends about 6 mo of rle before beginning hrt...i could be wrong, but my point is that it sounds reasonable.  if you are doing spiro and not being monitored then you are, and i state catagorically, making a mistake.  don't stop, but get your hiney in to see an md and do it now.  you must be monitored while doing such powerful drugs!

of course your endo and your therapsist may have different ideas, but they should consult with one another, and with you and ya'll all should arrive at a consensus as to the best course of action.  these kinds of questions don't have yes or no, concrete answers, they are subjective and since it's your body you carry the oenus of making any final decisions...but your decisions have to be within the scope of what your prescriber considers to be within his rational and ethical boundaries.  he cannot prescribe for you something that he feels might do you harm, regardless of your feelings.  Good luck and God bless with...

I always hated the idea of RLE before HRT. Who are they to tell us to risk ourselves just so *they* can make sure we're not doing something we'll regret? I, myself, probably would have said screw it if I had to do RLE first since back then I was sooo self conscious about myself and could have never done it without the changes I had from HRT to help me become more comfortable and more confident in myself and my image. If we feel this is right for us, then nobody else should be able to tell us what to do, or how to do it. There are much, much worse things people can do without having to have a gatekeeper that it seems ridiculous that the trans community still has to put up with this. People can get breast augs, facial surgery, so many other things that have far more impact on someone than HRT does, yet they don't have to go to a therapist and beg for their approval first or go through a ridiculous set of hoops before being allowed to take the necessary steps.

I wish you luck and I hope you can sway him to let you get them earlier.

- Sarah

Wow... Your therapist is a stupid idiot.

Quote from: Kara-Xen on November 06, 2008, 09:20:42 AM
Wow... Your therapist is a stupid idiot.

Agreed. I'd find another one, although I realize that's easier said than done. Also keep in mind that not all doctors or endos require a therapists recommendation. You're perfectly justified in shopping around for one on your own. You may even be able to find a doc/endo who'll recommend a therapist THEY work with.

Everyone has different motives, but I would never have done the RLT before I passed reasonably well via HRT. It was never about "presenting" for me, or being feminine, or any of that. I needed *acceptance* as a female, to blend in, so just walking around in public as obvious male wearing women's clothes would have been pointless for me. That's not a "test," that's cruel, missing-the-point torture, IMHO.

Kate

I was lucky and had HRT prescribed before i started my RLT. Like the others have said your a slave to your therapist or health system but yes i have long been against this system too.

It protects the weak in one respect but also makes victims of others, its not easy to pass for many and society can be an unforgiving place.

Good luck hunny.

haha, how does he expect you to be stable or see if you can live as a woman pre hrt?

in my case id have gone nuts...

who said it....we all have a right to shop around....that's even wise!  but calling someone a "stupid idiot" because they don't see things your way is a little much.

professionals have their own minds and their own attitudes and they have to live with them.  i don't think it's at all right to denigrate someone for doing what they think is right.  you may disagree, but they wouldn't have the right to call you a "stupid idiot" for disagreeing with them.  were i an md i would definitely not perscribe hormones, or any other drugs, to someone i wasn't convinced could be helped by them....that *I* wasn't convinced.....my name would go on that perscription and my ability to sleep at night is what's on the line for me.  were i a therapist i wouldn't refer anyone for hrt until i was convinced it was right for them...my name would go on that letter.  how selfish is that?  you, mr professional, have to practice your profession as I see fit, not you...me!

if you want to prescribe, get yourself and md and license to practice and prescribe away, then you won't have to deal with those "stupid idiots" who have done the leg work to get where they are and feel a personal need to subscribe to accepted ethical practices...not just run the world on their own.

if you want respect, rule number one is...be respectful.  God bless us all with... 

OK. Then he's incredibly "misguided," IMHO.

The RLT is supposed to "test" us living as we intend to live. If someone intends to live without HRT and passing, dressing in women's clothes and dealing with the consequences of that all her life... then a "RLT" trial without hormones makes sense.

But if someone intends to assimilate as an ordinary female, what does going out looking like a male "presenting enfemme" prove? If anything, it'll just scar and injure someone's confidence and psyche, IMHO. My assimilated post-HRT life in no way resembles what life would have been like dressing in women's clothes in public before HRT.

I do agree that a professional has every right to "qualify" a patient before signing his or her name to an HRT recommendation letter. But I believe that "approval" should be based on a patient's total commitment to transition, realistic expectations, emotional stability and a suitable environment and support network being in place. HRT faciliates the RLT, not the other way around, IMHO.I never "went fulltime" or "started my RLT." Instead, both happened as a *consequence* of HRT.

Kate

QuoteWow... Your therapist is a stupid idiot.

Damn right! My previous therapist tried to pull that bull->-bleeped-<- on me. I quit seeing them even through they are like the only therapist in the area. I'd like to take this at my own pace with the aid of hormones. At this moment, I'm doing the self medication route, only because I haven't gotten some ->-bleeped-<-s okay to do hormones.

Quote from: je on November 06, 2008, 11:36:13 AM

QuoteWow... Your therapist is a stupid idiot.

[..] right! My previous therapist tried to pull that [..] on me. I quit seeing them even through they are like the only therapist in the area. I'd like to take this at my own pace with the aid of hormones. At this moment, I'm doing the self medication route, only because I haven't gotten some ->-bleeped-<-s okay to do hormones.

I agree completely that the whole RLT before HRT is wrong and not in most of our best interests.  Its a fact that HRT helps with passing, and this therapists approach does nothing but make transition harder and more painful.

However transition involves medical treatment and so doctors/therapists are really needed.  HRT can be dangerous especially without proper monitoring.  Also surgery is gonna be easier to get if you try to stay within the "system".

I don't think doing things on your own is a better option than seeing unhelpful therapists, IMO

Sometimes the system wont help.

Self medication CAN be bad, but if you see a doctor and ask them to monitor you for safety, most will... they cannot refuse on the most part thanks to the hipocratic oath.

Self medication CAN be safe, i did it for over 9 months.

Sometimes we have to do things ourselves...

Before I ever saw my therapist I was self-medicating.  My therapist was not happy about it, because I was not being monitored, but he understood.   When I saw my doctor for the first time, I also told him.  His reaction was to stop doing that and promptly issued me my script.

I agree find another therapist.  Yours is a moron.  RLT is to get used to dealing with any problems that come with being a woman.  HRT will only help. Not the other way round.

Quote from: Starbuck on November 07, 2008, 07:23:20 AM
...Sometimes the system wont help...
...Sometimes we have to do things ourselves...

Most definitely. But it can be done properly with some effort. I did my first year of RLT and HRT in a small rural town in Nebraska where the doctors and therapists had zero transsexual experience. When I finally found a therapist and a MD who were willing to treat/monitor me I essentially taught them how to do it by flooding them both with the medical information they needed. I have no regrets. They both turned out to be great support systems and helped me get through some tough times.

In regards to whether it is best before or after to take hormones prior to RLT, due to my own experience with HRT I believe that hormones should be given before RLT not to just help them pass but because I believe it can help weed out the people who have doubts or those who are not truly transsexual. IMHO, the initial psychological and physical effects of estrogen and testosterone blockers would be welcomed by the TS and to the person who has doubts or is unsure, scary enough to stop the treatment. (e.g. male thought patterns changed, sexual shutdown, 2nd puberty emotional effects etc.) Come to think of it, face and neck electrolysis is also a good test.  :)

Dora

well...of course i see things very differently then the majority around here.  since the affects of hrt can be permanent and can become permanent to different people under different time frames, it makes perfect sense to me that one demonstrate their committment to transiton for at least some period of time before beginning the hormones that may end up negatively affecting some for the rest of their lives.  of course that's a "stupid idiot" idea, but as a card carrying "stupid idiot" i'll just hang on to it.

some among us might really benefit from researching some of the history of transsexualism and it's treatment in our country.  there was a period in our history when one of the nation's major medical teaching facilities concurred with the conventional wisdom around here...everybody is exactly what they say they are, even before experiencing what they say they are at all and everybody has a perfect right to make their own choices and the medical community should feel compeled to see to their needs as they self-describe.  the results were desaterous.  literally thousands of non-transsexuals were treated for transsexualism on demand simply because they walked in the door and said they were transsexual.  we learned that treating non-transsexuals for transsexualism was just as ludicris as treating non-cancer patients for cancer.  wouldn't it just be absurd for a surgeon to just start operating on someone because she walked in the door and announced she had breast cancer and was sure that removing her breasts was what she needed?  wouldn't we absolutely demand that doctor at least make some effort to confirm the diagnosis herself before the cutting got going?

it's the same with us.  obsessive transvestites, cross-dressers, autogynephilics and ->-bleeped-<-s walk in therapists doors every day and annouce they are transsexual, demand hrt...and some even surgery.  we don't have a test we can administer physically.  we can't draw some blood, check out a few enzymes and make a diagnosis.  the "t" in rlt isn't a test of the person, it's a test of the diagnosis.  it's the best we have right now...and it isn't stupid just because it isn't perfect.

i hope we can refrain from calling people who don't see things our way names and denegrating them because they are trying to do what's right as they see it.  if we can respect each other enough to communicate we can facilitate a better system, we can tweak and refine the process so that it works better for us all.  giving and taking, listening, observing and especially respecting is, in my opinion, a far better way to expedite a better future for us all then just dismissing out of hand other ideas as stupid, or those who don't agree as morons.

in most cases respect begets respect and disrespect begets...guess what?  disrespect.  i was recently advised that i need to grow up.  being around here i realize just how grown up i really am....and it ain't always all that pretty.  God bless us all with...

I agree that RLE before HRT is just cruel, and scarring.  Not to mention unsafe as not being passable in a place like montana could wind up getting oneself killed.  Thats like open season for ->-bleeped-<- hunters here in montucky.  I was on HRT al least one year before full time and it helped immensely.  I do agree that electrolysis is a much better test of someones resolve instead of RLE preHRT. 

Audrey

According to the Standards Of Care (SOC):

QuoteProfessionals sometimes construe the real-life experience as the real-life test of the ultimate diagnosis. If patients prosper in the preferred gender, they are confirmed as "transsexual," but if they decided against continuing, they "must not have been." This reasoning is a confusion of the forces that enable successful adaptation with the presence of a gender identity disorder. The real-life experience tests the person's resolve, the capacity to function in the preferred gender, and the adequacy of social, economic, and psychological supports. It assists both the patient and the mental health professional in their judgments about how to proceed. Diagnosis, although always open for reconsideration, precedes a recommendation for patients to embark on the real-life experience.

Regarding HRT:

QuoteEligibility Criteria. The administration of hormones is not to be lightly undertaken because of their medical and
social risks. Three criteria exist.
1. Age 18 years;
2. Demonstrable knowledge of what hormones medically can and cannot do and their social benefits and risks;
3. Either:
a. A documented real-life experience of at least three months prior to the administration of hormones; or
b. A period of psychotherapy of a duration specified by the mental health professional after the initial evaluation (usually a minimum of three months).

FWIW...

Kate

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 12:20:00 AM
some among us might really benefit from researching some of the history of transsexualism and it's treatment in our country.  there was a period in our history when one of the nation's major medical teaching facilities concurred with the conventional wisdom around here...everybody is exactly what they say they are, even before experiencing what they say they are at all and everybody has a perfect right to make their own choices and the medical community should feel compeled to see to their needs as they self-describe.  the results were desaterous.  literally thousands of non-transsexuals were treated for transsexualism on demand simply because they walked in the door and said they were transsexual.  we learned that treating non-transsexuals for transsexualism was just as ludicris as treating non-cancer patients for cancer.  wouldn't it just be absurd for a surgeon to just start operating on someone because she walked in the door and announced she had breast cancer and was sure that removing her breasts was what she needed?  wouldn't we absolutely demand that doctor at least make some effort to confirm the diagnosis herself before the cutting got going?

it's the same with us.  obsessive transvestites, cross-dressers, autogynephilics and ->-bleeped-<-s walk in therapists doors every day and annouce they are transsexual, demand hrt...and some even surgery.  we don't have a test we can administer physically.  we can't draw some blood, check out a few enzymes and make a diagnosis.  the "t" in rlt isn't a test of the person, it's a test of the diagnosis.  it's the best we have right now...and it isn't stupid just because it isn't perfect.

With all due respect, comparing those two scenarios throws up a problem:

Taking hormones isn't the same thing as having an operation. If you'd said that immediately performing GRS on an individual as soon as they presented as percieved transsexual was the same as operating on a non-cancer patient presenting with percieved breast cancer then yes, I would agree with you.

However, prescribing hormones to an individual in order that they might feel more confident in themselves and allow subtle changes in order to more closely undergo their real-life experience as who they percieve themselves to be, without quite so much scrutiny is, in my opinion, not detracting from the ability of that person to 'prove' they are who they believe they are. Surely you can show the world more easily that you can live as a woman if you physically look and feel like one.

I thought the idea of real life experience was to ascertain whether you could live your life as your percieved gender, not to see whether you could tolerate abuse and hatred from people by living your life as a transsexual person... which, in effect, is what it seems like to me, since the very things that allow you to live your life as your percieved gender are denied you. How is that real life experience of anything other than proving you want it badly enough, and can tolerate anything... rather than that you are who you say you are? It seems a fundamental difference, and a misconception.

It's like saying:

"Okay, you claim you're a squirrel, but you look like a racoon. What we want you to do is to go out there and interact with all the other animals as a squirrel. Prove to us that you're a squirrel.

But to do that, you have to still look like a racoon. Forget that all the other squirrels are accepted by each other because they look like squirrels, what you have to do is to try and fit into that world as a squirrel, find acceptance among your fellow animals, show us you are a squirrel even though no one will believe you are one since you don't have any squirrel features... because we won't let you. You have to prove it some other way."

It doesn't make sense.

But hey, I could be wrong. :)

hi lieandra.  i think you read right over some of the things i said.  one, rlt....as it is in the official vanacular...is a test of the diagnosis.  if you are under the impression that hrt will negate all those things you mention you are kidding yourself.  all that will still exist with or without hrt.  hormones are not magic pills, they will only take you so far.  if you can't tolerate living as who you are without hrt, odds are you won't afterwards either.  not always, but it's a strong liklihood. 

two, hrt is prescribing drugs, very powerful drugs.  and they have permanent affects, irreversible affects on different people during different time frames.  the difference between prescribing hormones and doing surgery is a matter of degree.  for either, confirming the diagnosis to the best of the prescriber's ability, is not only ethical, but it is a moral imperitive.

the exact timeframe for rlt before hrt is very subjective.  the frames do vary from therapist to therapist.  there is no absolute consensus so some referring professionals are more cautious then others.  that doesn't make them "stupid idiots", it doesn't mean they are morons or sadistic, cruel trolls out to kill off all transsexuals.  it may just mean the are cautious people dealing with a very inexact science, with some very intricate and complicated symptoms that have a proven history of mimicing one another very closely.

i think most professionals today will readily refer for medications now based simply on the fact that people are self medicating.  it's a trade off.  she may not be comfortable with her diagnosis but the more immediate danger is medicating without management.  this is dangerous for all of us and all of our younger sisters and brothers to come.  it's a very dangerous way of going about getting what you want.

looking outside of oneself, seeing things from another's perspective...looking at the bigger picture can be very helpful.

kate.  i think the cite you made from the hbsoc make perfect sense and in no way seem to me to be unreasonable, stupid, moronic, or cruel.  in fact, it's very kind....just my opinion.

God bless with...

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 01:48:03 PM
hi lieandra.  i think you read right over some of the things i said.  one, rlt....as it is in the official vanacular...is a test of the diagnosis.  if you are under the impression that hrt will negate all those things you mention you are kidding yourself.  all that will still exist with or without hrt.  hormones are not magic pills, they will only take you so far.  if you can't tolerate living as who you are without hrt, odds are you won't afterwards either.  not always, but it's a strong liklihood.

I apologise if I did that. I wasn't aware of it. But could I get some clarification on what you mean by 'a test of the diagnosis'? Do you mean that the RLT is to test whether the person is a transsexual? That strikes me as a wholly different thing than a test to determine whether the person is the other gender to who they appear to be.

And if that is the case, then why does real-life test/experience come with the explanation that it's to see if the person can live as their percieved gender... when, by your definition, that clearly isn't true.

I never said that HRT would negate anything, and I'm under no illusions, either. However, HRT does afford a certain level of self-confidence and self-esteem when a person can see that they look even slightly closer to who they believe themselves to be. Would you not say that the self-confidence and self-esteem would benefit anyone in integrating into society as themselves, regardless of how effective the physical changes are?

Finally, if you get that all important seal of approval that you're allowed to be yourself, and you go ahead with the decision to fully transition, won't you be living your life on HRT anyway regardless of whether you can get by without it? So living as a shadow of yourself, for however long without it, seems pointless, and a test that proves nothing other than that you know how to put on the apparel of your percieved gender.

Quote
two, hrt is prescribing drugs, very powerful drugs.  and they have permanent affects, irreversible affects on different people during different time frames.  the difference between prescribing hormones and doing surgery is a matter of degree.

Um... no, I disagree with that. For a period of as little as three months, which seems to be required RLT... from what I've read, it looks like anything brought on by HRT would be fully reversible and not permanent. So... that isn't really a good argument for not allowing it.

Quote
the exact timeframe for rlt before hrt is very subjective.  the frames do vary from therapist to therapist.  there is no absolute consensus so some referring professionals are more cautious then others.  that doesn't make them "stupid idiots", it doesn't mean they are morons or sadistic, cruel trolls out to kill off all transsexuals.  it may just mean the are cautious people dealing with a very inexact science, with some very intricate and complicated symptoms that have a proven history of mimicing one another very closely.

i think most professionals today will readily refer for medications now based simply on the fact that people are self medicating.  it's a trade off.  she may not be comfortable with her diagnosis but the more immediate danger is medicating without management.  this is dangerous for all of us and all of our younger sisters and brothers to come.  it's a very dangerous way of going about getting what you want.

looking outside of oneself, seeing things from another's perspective...looking at the bigger picture can be very helpful.

God bless with...

Indeed, and I never called anyone anything. Nor did I intend any disrespect. But there's a difference between being cautious out of doing what's best for the patient, and cautious out of doing what's best to cover your own back.

Quote from: Kate on November 08, 2008, 12:06:35 PM
Regarding HRT:

QuoteEligibility Criteria. The administration of hormones is not to be lightly undertaken because of their medical and
social risks. Three criteria exist.
1. Age 18 years;
2. Demonstrable knowledge of what hormones medically can and cannot do and their social benefits and risks;
3. Either:
a. A documented real-life experience of at least three months prior to the administration of hormones; or
b. A period of psychotherapy of a duration specified by the mental health professional after the initial evaluation (usually a minimum of three months).

FWIW...

Kate

I was gonna mention that I had read this somewhere too.

At any rate, I agree more or less with Kate.

Quote from: Kate on November 06, 2008, 09:35:06 AM
It was never about "presenting" for me, or being feminine, or any of that. I needed *acceptance* as a female, to blend in, so just walking around in public as obvious male wearing women's clothes would have been pointless for me. That's not a "test," that's cruel, missing-the-point torture, IMHO.

I know that things are different for you ladies, but I still feel that I can relate on some level. I'm basically one mile marker short of being "full time" because I'm known and referred to as Nathan everywhere....except my current classes. I would be full time if not for that. But that really doesn't mean anything, because no one sees me as male. I am getting read as lesbian because of my small stature, hairless, and feminine appearance no matter how I dress or cut my hair. This is just personal torture to me. Every "ma'am" "miss" "she" and "her" is like another lash of the whip for me. It's completely depressing.

I once had confidence in myself, I thought, "well I know I'm male, so I'll just be myself and that will do it for everyone else!" But that was not the case. No matter how much confidence I had, I was still being read as female by perfect strangers! It DOES kill your confidence after a while. One saturday I hit my lowest point, unable to get out of bed and "pretend to be a boy" because my self esteem and confidence were shot. And yes, I did stay in bed all day because I was so miserable.

I may not be an MtF but I feel your pain ladies because even while binding and "presenting" I'm still a woman to the world, and only a man to myself. I feel as though HRT could bring my confidence back...plus I want all of its positive side effects anyway. I've introduced myself as Nathaniel to people many a time, and they just think I'm a girl with a weird name.

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 12:20:00 AM
it's the same with us.  obsessive transvestites, cross-dressers, autogynephilics and ->-bleeped-<-s walk in therapists doors every day and annouce they are transsexual, demand hrt...and some even surgery.  we don't have a test we can administer physically.  we can't draw some blood, check out a few enzymes and make a diagnosis.  the "t" in rlt isn't a test of the person, it's a test of the diagnosis.

I agree with pj too in a sense.... but here's my dilemma.

My therapist is holding off even TALKING about taking T right now because SHE feels that coming out to my extended family is a necessary step that must be taken FIRST. I am out to my parents, I'm more or less Nathaniel at school, but I have to come out to extended fam before taking another step according to her.

I know that I am transsexual, there's no doubt in the world of that, but let's say hypothetically that I wasn't. What if I was just a crossdresser? Or an obsessive crossdresser? What if I just thought being a guy for the rest of my life would help make my crossdressing easier, but I wasn't actually a transsexual and did not have any dysphoria whatsover.... Wouldn't my therapist's making me come out to my family be kinda cruel? I mean I'M okay with doing it, but what if later I had a sudden revelation and realized I was just a crossdresser after all after coming out to my semi-conservative family as a transsexual? There's no redo button for that! I couldn't stop the backlash and insults, stupid questions or ignorant hatred that would follow, even if I were to say "I made a mistake." Once you come out like that, people remember that sort of thing, especially my family.

I wish I could get a different therapist in this regard because I find her steps unorthodox, but she is completely covered by my mom's health plan and I don't think I could afford someone else if I had to go back to copays. I will most likely be on my own when it comes to paying for my T prescription so I need all the money I can save. And I'm stuck with her.

hi lieandra, seeing if one can live more comfortably in their desired target gender presentation IS a test of the diagnosis.  if hrt is the difference between success and failure then one probably isn't a good candidate for hrt  YET.  we are talking right past each other. i surrender.

nathan.  you make perfect sense to me.  all i can recommend to you is to make the arguement you just made here to your therapist, i found it very valid and persuesive.  we've discussed "shopping around" here and i'm sorry to hear that this doesn't seem to be an option for you.

it seems as if your therapist is one of the cautious ones, she wants to see total committment.  i see her point...before offering you "t" she wants to be positive you aren't one of the ones with those misdiagnosis' we spoke of.  from what you say here, you are allowing for that possiblity yourself, it's a conundrum.  so i can understand her reticense.  however;  your arguement is strong, it might just be strong enough to reduce her criterion from positive to very sure.  i think you two probably could work together and see if you can't find some common ground.  most good therapists can and are more then willing to learn from their clients.  i hope yours turns out to be one of the good ones.  God bless with...

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 02:40:06 PM
it seems as if your therapist is one of the cautious ones, she wants to see total committment.  i see her point...before offering you "t" she wants to be positive you aren't one of the ones with those misdiagnosis' we spoke of. 

I feel that everyone's journey in transition is different...and just because I wasn't jumping headfirst into T when I first began seeing her, my therapist is still holding that against me. I am the type of person who doesn't like doing things because I think I have to, therefore I wasn't interested in testosterone. I didn't want to take it simply because it's what most transmen do, I wanted to take it when I wanted it, at my own pace. I'm ready for it now, because I want it, not because I'm "supposed" to want it. (I mean the following as though I were talking to my therapist:) Forgive me for wanting to make an informed decision. Health issues are a big problem in my family...I knew all the positive side effects (and wanted them at some point or another) but I was just afraid that I was going to go into HRT blind and ignorant...so I wanted to do my research first on the negative side effects before I committed to that major step.

Now that I've done my research however and know that my risks are increased because cardiovascular issues ARE more prominent in african-americans, and my own family (hypertension for one) I would like to start taking T. I know my risks, I know what I'm doing, and there is nothing else I can do about it but take care of myself. I feel that I am not saying this as a young adult who doesn't know any better, but an adult who's done their part and made a decision for themselves.

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 02:40:06 PMfrom what you say here, you are allowing for that possiblity yourself, it's a conundrum.  so i can understand her reticense.  however;  your arguement is strong, it might just be strong enough to reduce her criterion from positive to very sure.  i think you two probably could work together and see if you can't find some common ground.  most good therapists can and are more then willing to learn from their clients.  i hope yours turns out to be one of the good ones.  God bless with...

I'm sorry that you misunderstood what I posted. I know that I am a transsexual. What I feel, what I experience, the dysphoria....I know that's what it is. I know I'm a man. I'm a man with a birth defect. I wouldn't have come out to anyone without that knowledge.

When I posted "what if I was a crossdresser" I said

Quotehypothetically

because I know that I am not. I was just giving an example of why my therapist's "come out to family first" idea sucks because every transperson who walks in her door will not be a transsexual. Yes, she will come across the occasional crossdresser, transvestite, androgyne, so i'm saying that her method may work in my case, but if a crossdresser came to her and she made them do the same (but they came out to their family as a transsexual, not a crossdresser) then her method is severely lacking and it would suck for whoever that happened to. I know I tend to ramble and make myself a little unclear, but was that a little bit clearer?

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 02:40:06 PM
hi lieandra, seeing if one can live more comfortably in their desired target gender presentation IS a test of the diagnosis.

Then why would you not allow people something that could help them to do just that?

It's like saying to Da Vinci: "Paint me the Mona Lisa with your painting hand tied behind your back."

Quoteif hrt is the difference between success and failure then one probably isn't a good candidate for hrt  YET.

That doesn't make any sense. ??? That's no different to saying "If developing a more female figure and features influences your perception of yourself as a woman... you shouldn't have a more female figure and features."

I guess I just don't understand, I'm sorry. I don't mean to be dense. I'm not saying that someone can't live as themselves without HRT, I'm suggesting that they shouldn't have to be made to, there's no valid reason, as far as I can see, why it should be denied.

I tend to agree with Leiandra... I right now will most likely start HRT while still presenting as a guy for a while. It's just the method I think I'd be most comfortable with, but hey... That's why I'm looking for a professional to talk to, right? :)

nathan.  you sound like a perfectly rational, intellingent, informed and of sound mind man.  i still understand her question, though less and less i'm inclined to see her insistence on the one answer.  "if you are totally convinced and committed, then why don't you want to come out to your extended family?"  it sounds a little much and i'm sure you're talking to her just as you've spoken with us here will have an affect on her judgement.  that you have talked it over with your immediate family, your friends and associates i would think would be enough.  extended family means different things to different people.  i wouldn't think it unreasonable to feel like you just simply aren't close enough with them to feel comfortable talking about such an intimate thing with them.

i didn't go on hrt until i was ready either.  my therapist was ready to refer me within a couple of months easily, i wasn't ready myself and didn't go until i was 24/7 for a year.  like you, i wanted to be absolutely sure it was for me.  i knew i was a woman and i knew i would be presenting as such for the rest of time.  i knew that hrt was not going to change that one way or the other....but...they are powerful drugs and i wanted to fully comprehend and assess all the risks and possiblilities of doing them and make a rational, not emotional, deciscion.  i wanted the e awfully badly, i wanted the positive physical changes i hoped would come from them....but it wasn't the difference between success and failure for me....i was going to survive and thrive one way or the other.  my self worth is not in anyway connected to my appearance and my appearance will not make or break my life.  shoot....there i go....being a grownup again.  sorry....

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 03:14:19 PM
my self worth is not in anyway connected to my appearance and my appearance will not make or break my life.  shoot....there i go....being a grownup again.  sorry....

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything. Personally, this whole exchange between the two of us was two rational adults explaining and discussing their views on things to each other. We're not going to agree 100% of course, but I do agree with much of what you said. However....the whole "I'm a grown up" thing that you keep repeating, not just to me, but to the others that have posted here as well can come off the wrong way. I hope you don't mean it in the way I am interpreting it (insulting). I have not done anything to insult you in this discussion, so I really wish you would stop saying that as though you are wiser and more mature than the rest of us. Or at least I hope that is not the context you meant it in.

I do not feel my self worth is connected to my appearance, but my personal view on life is that I take great pride in my appearance. (I get it from my mom!) I like making sure I'm primped and polished even if I'm just going to class. That doesn't mean I wear a suit and tie everyday, but I do try to look nice. In regards to HRT I don't just want it simply for my appearance... I have already explained that this is a very touchy issue for me because I do not fit into society as smoothly as some other FtMs with deeper voices may, or because I just want to lie in bed sometimes. I am a man. It is who I am. And I wish others knew it too. It's not a matter of appearance, it is as Kate said

Quote from: Kate on November 06, 2008, 09:35:06 AM
It was never about "presenting" for me, or being feminine, or any of that. I needed *acceptance* as a female, to blend in, so just walking around in public as obvious male wearing women's clothes would have been pointless for me. That's not a "test," that's cruel, missing-the-point torture, IMHO.

I'm an obvious "woman" walking around in men's clothes, and just that thought is quite scarring to me. Everytime someone tells me "I just thought you were a lesbian" I die a little bit inside. It's not a matter of appearance for me, being viewed/accepted as a woman in men's clothes is just heightening my already horrible dysphoria. I just want to be accepted as the man I truly am.

hi nathan...wow!  i thought i was expressing a pretty profound respect for you....which i felt.  the "grown up" statement is about me!

God, you just cannot make any sense of anything around here.  you go on and on about how mature and rational someone is and they jump up and go off on you....i just don't get it...ok, i quit...good luck.

I do understand your point to some extent on medical professionals having to be responsible for the actions they choose and the perscriptions and recommendations they right. It is in there legal right and authority to dictate how they want any client under them handling a medical perscription. I also agree that calling them names for their point of view will not solve anything. However personally I do not agree at all with that descion by the therapist HRT should be a step toward the RLT and not an afterthought. Personaly I haven't been able to summon upt he courage to even go out into public dressed once but I have started self medicated hormones for the last 4 months. When I met my therapist recently I was fortuanate to have a very kind and understanding woman who has been very helpful the few visit ive gone so far. It's kinda funny when i told her I was self medicating i was prepared for the useual lecture on the dangers and to ahve to defend myself with explaing all the research I did. However she jsut told me it was good that I was starting hormones this early in life (im 25btw) before T had any more chance to affect my body and she recommended me to a TG friendly doctor who Ill being seeing for the first time next week to have my hormone lvs checked. Understand that i am not in any way advocating self medication they are powerfull drugs and potentialy very dangerous if done wrong. 

I consider these chemicals a birthright. And thats all I'm saying.

hi fox.  your therapist does sound reasonable.  if one is bound and determined to self-medicate, then the lecture is of no value.  what's important then is to get the monitoring.  sometimes you just cannot stop the self-destructive behavior, so with all humility you can help mitigate the danger.

God bless with...

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 03:14:19 PM
i wanted the e awfully badly, i wanted the positive physical changes i hoped would come from them....but it wasn't the difference between success and failure for me....i was going to survive and thrive one way or the other.  my self worth is not in anyway connected to my appearance and my appearance will not make or break my life.  shoot....there i go....being a grownup again.  sorry....

The physical changes from HRT WERE a matter of life or death for me. My *bodily* appearance (and not presentation or whatever) is absolutely critical to me. Without the physical changes from HRT and surgeries, without being physically female now... I'd be dead. I don't "identify as a woman inside," instead, I'm *female*... with all the consequences that entails.

There's my truth. It's not a matter of being "secure" enough to "present as a woman" in public, as I just don't give a fig about "presenting as my target gender." I needed to BE my target SEX. Everything else I do is a *consequence* of being female, not a goal to present as a woman. Lock me away naked in solitary confinement for the rest of my life, and I'd STILL have to have HRT and the changes it brings... or I'd end my life.

I would have failed a test to "present as a woman" before HRT. You might as well electrocute me or pull my fingernails off, as those tortures would be just as irrelevant to my need to be and assimilate as a normal female.

We seem to be talking about two different needs, two different trajectories. I can see where RLT before HRT made sense to you, and helped you realize what was right for you. I'm just hoping you can see where it wouldn't have proved a thing for me?

Kate

Bottom line and semantics aside:  Icephoenyx, you DO need to find another therapist! 

tink :icon_chick:

What i notice, is a lot of therapists belive all transwomen are the 'dont care' type with thick skin who WILL meakly do rle before hrt because 'living AS a woman' is all they want.

I dont want to live AS one... or like one.

How can i show a therapist i CAN fit in if i dont? Hrt does NOT make one into a woman. Just makes your body into one physically. If hrt made men into women, then f2ms wouldnt exist.

yes, kate....i hear exactly what you're saying and i fully concurr with your reality.  the are no absolutes, everyone is different.  this is precisely why the therapists can't just up and do anything.  there has to be some standard or we find chaos.  listening to you i might very well have expedited you into hrt.  i also might have felt that the razor you were holding to your wrist was just childish manipulation, i don't know.  it's sounds as if you desperately needed it, as an individual i might have felt your life was in danger and if that were the only answer, so be it.  i have not advised any course for any individual here....i just am defending the right of the perscribing authority to verify their diagnosis by whatever means possible.  i'm so sorry that makes no sense to some, it makes perfect sense to me.

nobody has a birthright to something someone else has to do for them.

Posted on: November 08, 2008, 08:42:51 pm

---

starbuck, you seem to disagree with just about everything i say and you seem to be getting away with it.

i can't possibly disagree more with what you just said.  hrt will not make you body into a woman's physically.  hrt can bring some of your body chemistry into line, and can produce some changes in skin, hair, breasts and fat/muscle relationship, but it does not make a body female....hrt has yet to produce it's first vagina, clitoris, orarie or uteres. it has never, to my knowledge, altered bone structure or deleted a penis or a testacle.  it's good, but it ain't all that. it certainly can help produce a female appearance though.

Quote from: pennyjanehrt has yet to produce it's first vagina, clitoris, orarie or uteres. it has never, to my knowledge, altered bone structure or deleted a penis or a testacle.

Yea, it is a ->-bleeped-<- shame that it doesn't do some of that. It is quite a bitch that it can't totally reverse what that corrosive, awful poison has already done.

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 09:29:14 PM
starbuck, you seem to disagree with just about everything i say and you seem to be getting away with it.

i can't possibly disagree more with what you just said.  hrt will not make you body into a woman's physically.  hrt can bring some of your body chemistry into line, and can produce some changes in skin, hair, breasts and fat/muscle relationship, but it does not make a body female....hrt has yet to produce it's first vagina, clitoris, orarie or uteres. it has never, to my knowledge, altered bone structure or deleted a penis or a testacle.  it's good, but it ain't all that. it certainly can help produce a female appearance though.

anyway....

You take my point too literally. Hrt will give one the outward apearance of a female ... (OBVIOUSLY WITHOUT VAGINA OK? - i had presumed that people were inteligent enough to establish that.) The person looks more female, softer skin, breasts, figure changes... fat distribution as you said. But it also has massively different effects depending on age... genetics etc.

For me, transitioning at 19, its changed me HUGELY... whereas it may not change someone who transitioned at 50 as much... such is the nature of human growth homrone levels for one thing...

with regards to the topic, looking like the gender you feel helps massively integrating... especially in a society that is still awkward about gender...hey... if it looks like a duck.... RLT is a test to see if you can live as a woman. Not live as a man in womens clothes.

I'm not out to get you penny, you've just said some things recently that i disagree with.

im not after you, and ET doesnt want to probe you... sorry if either is a dissapointment.

Quote from: trapthavok on November 08, 2008, 02:55:16 PM
I was just giving an example of why my therapist's "come out to family first" idea sucks because every transperson who walks in her door will not be a transsexual. Yes, she will come across the occasional crossdresser, transvestite, androgyne, so i'm saying that her method may work in my case, but if a crossdresser came to her and she made them do the same (but they came out to their family as a transsexual, not a crossdresser) then her method is severely lacking and it would suck for whoever that happened to.

I completely agree with this statement. It kind of reminds me of the time of witch hunts where they would do things like tie a rock to them and throw them in the water; if they were a witch they'd float and be subject to death afterward, if not then they'd drown, both circumstances would lead to death. In this case the therapist is throwing you into the world and seeing if you float or drown. If you float then you're a transsexual (even if you're not) and can move forward, otherwise you drown. Either way you're putting yourself at risk by coming out prematurely.

It also seems a little unorthodox just because coming out doesn't seem to be a professional test to qualify someone as transsexual or not since coming out only has two outcomes. Either you're going to have support from family or you're not. Either way it doesn't show if you're really a transsexual or not since acceptance will most likely just fuel the fire by adding to the support behind the person transitioning in which case they'd continue to want to move forward even if they're not a transsexual, and rejection will serve only to test the person's level of strength in dealing with bigotry and hate, not whether they are transsexual or not.

That being said, I don't see how anyone can really justify the motives of requiring someone to either come out to family or friends, or be full time before being allowed to take HRT. If the person isn't ready to come out to people or go full time that doesn't have any bearing on whether or not they are really transsexual or not.

Quote from: Kiera on November 09, 2008, 05:47:47 PM

Quote from: trapthavok on November 08, 2008, 03:27:47 PMI'm an obvious "woman" walking around in men's clothes, and just that thought is quite scarring to me. Everytime someone tells me "I just thought you were a lesbian" I die a little bit inside. It's not a matter of appearance for me, being viewed/accepted as a woman in men's clothes is just heightening my already horrible dysphoria. I just want to be accepted as the man I truly am.

My this has turned into quite a discussion, can *avoid it* no more, I think comparing a FtM experience with a MtF is somewhat like "apples" to "oranges" even though the desired end result *acknowledgment & acceptance* remains the same. Personally coming out first to what otherwise always seemed to me like a *highly dysfunctional family* is the best thing I could ever have done and has only served to bring us all closer together with terms such as "normal", "highly typical" & "socially adjusted" being mere myths that many all along try to delude themselves into thinking, the arrogance of which in itself can be the most intolerable thing in the world.

Traphavok, to simply "dress the part" and expect to be treated as such just because it is more accepted is very delusional, I think you know that so if it truly bothers you why do it?

So Your Normal eh? Able to judge? Yea Right! Self-affirmation & happiness comes from within & always will with *other's reflective attitudes be dammed*, have never ever had a problem being regarded as "gay"

First of all, I know comparing FTM and MTF is apples to oranges, but I still felt as though we can relate to each other in some way, shape or form. Sorry for intruding on this thread, I thought this was just about hormones, not Estrogen solely.

Second of all, it's not necessarily that I "dress the part," I dress in the clothes that are comfortable to me. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone in my manner of dress. I simply choose not to wear women's clothing anymore because I am not a woman. I do not expect to be treated like a man simply because of the way I dress, but in my manner of walking, talking, etc. I hope that my binder does SOMETHING for my appearance as well. I do not appreciate being called delusional. and I'm not going to stop dressing like this just because it bothers me being labeled as lesbian.

I do not consider myself lesbian, but I think it is also rude of you to say "am I normal" as though I think I'm better than everyone else. I am not better than anyone, I'm simply trying to get by day to day just like everyone else. That doesn't mean I enjoy being labeled though. Who does?? Especially when the label doesn't apply. If I were a dog, don't you think it'd be a little scarring to be labeled and treated like a cat?  I am not judging anybody in any way shape or form, so I don't know where you're getting that from. I am happy being who I am, but it doesn't mean I am going to be happy everytime someone calls me a girl or something, that's just my own personal stick. I'm not going to linger over it everytime it happens, but its worthy enough to make me feel upset for a few moments. I'm sorry that I cannot be perfect like you.

This will be my last post in this thread, so thank you for the compliments to those who gave them and thank you to those who slandered me. I appreciate it. It makes me realize how little any of your opinions matter in my life and my self-worth.

I'm dressing about 70% of the time but my therapists have said I can start HRT. They agree with me that the transition will be much easier on me the more fem I look. They said the whole idea was for me to develop the self-confidence I need to move forward and become the happy person I have always dreamed of being.

Thanks for the advice all, it just sucks b/c I honestly cannot see another therapist.....there are only two in my province, I see the one I'm talking about, and the other is three hours away....I don't want to do all that traveling just to find out that another shrink will do the same thing as far as RLT goes. I live in a relatively conservative area and I think that I'm screwed either way.

I don't know my shrink very well, maybe he will be willing to budge a little if I show him i'm ready, and an endo may be a bit more liberal. I'm pretty sure I need to come to a session dressed as a woman in order to gain his "OK," but I'm still not sure. I'm scared that if I argue with him he'll become even stricter.
For now, I think staying on the tblockers, changing my name, and getting a few surgeries on my face *could* do the trick, as these are my next steps.

Chrissi

If you are looking to just get as little therapy as needed to get the letters (as probably most of us do) then I think there are also over-the-phone therapists available, although I don't know what qualifications they have and if they'd be able to write the letters. I don't think you should be afraid of your therapist. This road is yours, and yours alone, and we shouldn't have to be afraid of making the wrong step for fear of retaliation by the person who is meant to be guiding us and helping us through this journey. I think you might want to have a talk with this therapist and lay it all on the table on what your timetable is, what steps you want to take, and what result you want.

Also, an endo may not even require the letter, so you may want to think about just going to one and seeing if they'll prescribe without a letter. Also, if you tell the endo you're self-medicating they may also be more inclined to prescribe. A little white lie never heart anyone.

I'm a little late to this thread, but I did want to mention something no one else has pointed out yet. The "live one year as a woman before HRT" thing is one of the original Benjamin Standards of Care guidelines. That goes back to 1979 and has long since been revised based on the actual experience of patients and therapists accumulated over many years.

I would certainly bring a copy of the most recent standards of care to any therapist dropping back to this and ask him or her to explain why they choose to deviate so far from the consensus standards of care governing transsexual therapy. The most recent (as of 2001)  WPATH SOC guideline governing hormone therapy states:

Quote1. Age 18 years;
2. Demonstrable knowledge of what hormones medically can and cannot do and their social
benefits and risks;
3. Either:
a. A documented real-life experience of at least three months prior to the administration
of hormones; or
b. A period of psychotherapy of a duration specified by the mental health professional
after the initial evaluation (usually a minimum of three months).

For many, many reasons stated above by others the "one year RLT" standard has been long since revised. I would simply add that a strong previous bias in transsexual therapy tended to filter out all but the most naturally effeminate and passable males from qualifying for HRT or SRS by design. Others have since noted that this is not an appropriate criterion for gauging the seriousness of ones' transsexualism, and the updated standard reflects this.

I wouldn't trust a therapist who still relied on an old version of the SOC (at least one who couldn't give a very compelling reason) any more than I'd go to a medical doctor who still prescribed leeches to treat fevers.

What Dana said.




Dawn

Thanks for bringing that up Dana, I will have to show that to my shrink!! at any rate, as an MtF, don't we usually just take birth control as our estrogen source anyways?? doctors seem to hand birth control out like candy nowadays...

for example...my best friend has 19 yr old twin sisters who are the biggest social loafers on the planet...they are beautiful, but they dont work, dont go to school (haven't finished high school) and all they do is sleep, play video games, and run around with boys.....and THEY BOTH got birth control!!!

so, can't I just get some from my family doctor or have a friend get it for me, since a good portion of my female friends are on it?? Thanks

Chrissi

Im no expert on this but I think from what ive heard. In the past birth control pills contained alot of actual estrogen enough to physicaly affect the development of a male body. However they changed birth control formulas to use alot less estrogen and rely on other chemicals so that the current birth control drugs contain minute amounts of estrogen if any real.

Birth-control pills contain artificial estrogens and progestins that, while quite powerful, are very bad culprits when it comes to causing cancer, clots and the like. Some doctors still prescribe them, as do they conjugated estrogens, but neither are good. You need to take meds that contain either 17beta-estradiol or estradiol valerate. Those are the most bio-identical to human female hormones and thus the safest.

Do your research folks, please! Half the time the endo's and therapists out there are not up to speed. You have to educate yourself so you can protect yourself, even if not self-medicating.

~Simone.

Birth control pills are one of the more dangerous sources of HRT.  For starters the oestrogen is often ethinyloestradiol, which is generally regarded as having far higher risks than other types of oestrogen.  Also most pills contain progesterone as well, and there can be problems with the ratio between oestrogen and progesterone - if you're after the right oestrogen dosage, you run the risk of going way over on progesterone.

Also amongst women using the pill for birth control, horrific life-threatening side-effects are not that rare.  Largely down to the fact that they use cheaper synthetic hormones as opposed to bio-identical hormones.

If anybody was thinking of self-medicating (which i would never advocate) then birth control pills are about the worst way you could possibly go about it.

I see, thanks for the heads up everyone! I'll just cross my fingers in the meantime!

Actually, I have something else to ask....since birth control isn't really "the thing" anymore, what DO mtfs use?? Call me a nOOb, but do they give you medication that is specifically mtfs (prolly wishful thinking, i know)???

I know you can inject it, but isn't it (whatever it is) available as pills too?? i'm very needle-phobic!!

Quote from: Icephoenyx on December 07, 2008, 10:55:16 PM
Actually, I have something else to ask....since birth control isn't really "the thing" anymore, what DO mtfs use?? Call me a nOOb, but do they give you medication that is specifically mtfs (prolly wishful thinking, i know)???

I know you can inject it, but isn't it (whatever it is) available as pills too?? i'm very needle-phobic!!

It's something you should discuss in detail with an endocrinologist, but generally we get androgen blockers along with the same kind of estrogen given to women on HRT post-menopause.

~Simone.

Pills, transdermal patches, injections all of which are the same forms of estrogen used by post menopausal women also a T blocker such as spiro or andro and a DHT blocker that is the same thing men take for enlarged prostates like proscar or avodart

well i'm already on spiro so that's taken care of!!

For a different outlook:
I felt I owed it to myself to go full time before I tried to get on any kind of HRT.
My take on the situation was that if I could handle living 24/7 without the hormones, then everything after that would be cake (and it was, in comparison).
I guess I was proving to myself (and everyone else) that I was tough enough to do this, no matter what obstacles were in my way.

It was also amusing telling the Endo on the first consultation that I'd already been living as a woman for a several months. He had absolutely no excuse to turn me away.  ;)

I certainly don't see other people who did HRT first as being weak, or 'not tough'.
Nor do I think one way is right and the other way is wrong.
Do whatever you feel is right for you (and what you can get away with, under the constraints of the system).

Thats a good way of looking at it Vex, thanks!

Interesting Vex, not everyone can do that though,

The point has been raised before that you are not living as a woman if you are being clocked 24/7... so is it really a test of anything beside 'how tough' you are? how 'determined' not if you can live as a woman or not? Imo, for many therapists its literally a 'do you want me to let you transition bad enough to humiliate yourself daily? For some, great, go do it, but a lot cant, and thats where the problem lies.

HRT isnt part of the assesment process, or atleast shouldnt be, by then, the therapist and paitent should have a good idea if they need to transition or not, and if they do need to... then theres no need to test...

I cannot agree with RLE before any kind of HRT. I think it would be cruel and cause more damage than we already have to deal with. Some of us just cannot pass without the aid of some kind of HRT; it is a serious error in judgement on the part of the therapist to require that. As a TS, I have come to the realization that I need all the available help there is and am not ashamed to say that I could not pass well with just clothes and makeup.
Isn't it enough that we have so many issues to deal with already without adding another and even more difficult task?
If you can get another therapist do that. Or at least find a way to allow yourself to transition slowly, carefully, and thoughtfully. Going out full time before any HRT is none of those things.
Please be careful and remember that you are important and do not deserve to suffer at teh hands of a professional as well as society.

Well, I've been told I should be ok, and since I only see the guy like twice a year, if that, I don't really know if his policies changed, and the endo may have different views. I guess the next step would be to get referred to the endo and play it out from there. I just hope I can get the hormones when I need them.

Basically, he told me that once you go on hormones, there are some irreversible changes that happen, such as breast development (only can be helped with more surgery, he says). Thats sounds like a bunch of BS to me, but I wouldn't know.

At the tender age of 20, I have come out to my mom, taken spiro for 2 years now, had about 10 sessions of laser and 10 hours of electro, I think that should say enough, but he's the boss!

Chrissi

Quote from: Patriciaz on December 11, 2008, 02:15:59 PM
I cannot agree with RLE before any kind of HRT. I think it would be cruel and cause more damage than we already have to deal with. Some of us just cannot pass without the aid of some kind of HRT; it is a serious error in judgement on the part of the therapist to require that. As a TS, I have come to the realization that I need all the available help there is and am not ashamed to say that I could not pass well with just clothes and makeup.
Isn't it enough that we have so many issues to deal with already without adding another and even more difficult task?

HRT can only do so much; some fat accumulation on the face to soften it, breasts and some lower curvature.
I hate to be harsh, but if someone has a strong, manly face with a square jaw, protruding brows and a bony forehead; then all the HRT in the world won't help. FFS is the only option.
Should they be denied HRT until they have had FFS?

QuoteIf you can get another therapist do that. Or at least find a way to allow yourself to transition slowly, carefully, and thoughtfully. Going out full time before any HRT is none of those things.

What an utter load of inflammatory bollocks.
As people have said over and over, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to transition!
Sure, you feel that you can't go full time without HRT - that doesn't mean it is a bad (or 'unthoughtful' or 'careless') for someone else to go full time without it.
I put years of 'thought' and 'care' into my decisions, thankyouverymuch.

IMO, some people get so hung up on passing that they forget that they are doing this for internal reasons, not external ones.

I do not agree.
We are all, unfortunately, composed of internal and external components. Trying to get them both to conform and complement each other is the point - for me.
You may be as vulgar as you wish; does not make your opinion any more valid.
Besides that comment was not addressed to you, alone, personally, with only you in the discussion, and only for you to read; you , you , you. There are others here.

Quote from: Vexing on December 11, 2008, 02:42:47 PM

Quote from: Patriciaz on December 11, 2008, 02:15:59 PM
I cannot agree with RLE before any kind of HRT. I think it would be cruel and cause more damage than we already have to deal with. Some of us just cannot pass without the aid of some kind of HRT; it is a serious error in judgement on the part of the therapist to require that. As a TS, I have come to the realization that I need all the available help there is and am not ashamed to say that I could not pass well with just clothes and makeup.
Isn't it enough that we have so many issues to deal with already without adding another and even more difficult task?

HRT can only do so much; some fat accumulation on the face to soften it, breasts and some lower curvature.
I hate to be harsh, but if someone has a strong, manly face with a square jaw, protruding brows and a bony forehead; then all the HRT in the world won't help. FFS is the only option.
Should they be denied HRT until they have had FFS?

QuoteIf you can get another therapist do that. Or at least find a way to allow yourself to transition slowly, carefully, and thoughtfully. Going out full time before any HRT is none of those things.

What an utter load of inflammatory bollocks.
As people have said over and over, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to transition!
Sure, you feel that you can't go full time without HRT - that doesn't mean it is a bad (or 'unthoughtful' or 'careless') for someone else to go full time without it.
I put years of 'thought' and 'care' into my decisions, thankyouverymuch.

IMO, some people get so hung up on passing that they forget that they are doing this for internal reasons, not external ones.

Dont make me get my before and after photos out again... hrt did a HUGE amount to me...
as for internal/external tbh, my dysphoria is more how my body looks... my mind is fine! so passing is integral!

Quote from: Patriciaz on December 11, 2008, 03:53:11 PM
I do not agree.
We are all, unfortunately, composed of internal and external components. Trying to get them both to conform and complement each other is the point - for me.
You may be as vulgar as you wish; does not make your opinion any more valid.
Besides that comment was not addressed to you, alone, personally, with only you in the discussion, and only for you to read; you , you , you. There are others here.

Your statement claimed that anyone who goes full time without HRT is 'thoughless' and 'careless'.
Would you care to address this?
Regardless as to whether or not it is directed at me, personally, your statement encompasses every person who went full time without HRT!
You are stating we are thoughtless and careless.

Would you care to back that up with fact?

P.S. 'Vulgar'? lolwut?

I think there is a provision in the SOC (no time to look it up) that HRT can be administered to help the patient pass in a RLT.  I also seem to remember seeing something that masectomy can be done for FTM for the same reason, also prior to RLT. 
The point of a RLT, as I understand it, is to see how well you function in the new gender role.  It's not a test of your diagnosis or anything else, other than your ability to function in that new role.  In some cases, starting a RLT if you're not passable is definitely going to result in the inability to function in the desired gender role-- you can't use the women's restroom if you get clocked by every single person who sees you.  In some cases (and places) that can be a danger to your health and safety. 
It's unfortunate if the OP can't see someone else, but possibly an appeal to reason might work?

Quote from: Vexing on December 11, 2008, 04:03:41 PM

Quote from: Patriciaz on December 11, 2008, 03:53:11 PM
I do not agree.
We are all, unfortunately, composed of internal and external components. Trying to get them both to conform and complement each other is the point - for me.
You may be as vulgar as you wish; does not make your opinion any more valid.
Besides that comment was not addressed to you, alone, personally, with only you in the discussion, and only for you to read; you , you , you. There are others here.

Your statement claimed that anyone who goes full time without HRT is 'thoughless' and 'careless'.
Would you care to address this?
Regardless as to whether or not it is directed at me, personally, your statement encompasses every person who went full time without HRT!
You are stating we are thoughtless and careless.

Would you care to back that up with fact?

P.S. 'Vulgar'? lolwut?

I'd have to agree with Vex. To say that anyone who *willfully chooses* to do RLT before HRT is thoughtless or careless is wrong, as we all know that everyone is different and follows the path most comfortable for them. Now if you had said (or meant) that any *therapist* that *requires* that you do RLT before HRT is thoughtless or careless, especially when the patient doesn't want to, then I would agree with that point. This may just be a misunderstanding between you two.

Quote from: Jessica L. on December 11, 2008, 06:02:10 PMI think there is a provision in the SOC (no time to look it up) that HRT can be administered to help the patient pass in a RLT.  I also seem to remember seeing something that masectomy can be done for FTM for the same reason, also prior to RLT.

Version 6 of the SOC basically only requires 3 months of continuous therapy for HRT to be recommended. That or you can already be presenting and living FT as your target gender. There's also a provision for people who self-medicate.

Quote from: Vexing on December 11, 2008, 04:03:41 PMYour statement claimed that anyone who goes full time without HRT is 'thoughless' and 'careless'.

I think most of us would agree that therapists who make you go FT before HRT are thoughtless and careless. Perhaps, as SarahR says, this is just a misunderstanding? People who go FT before HRT are bloody brave and have way more guts than I do.

~Simone.

Quote from: Patriciaz on December 11, 2008, 02:15:59 PM
I cannot agree with RLE before any kind of HRT. I think it would be cruel and cause more damage than we already have to deal with. Some of us just cannot pass without the aid of some kind of HRT; it is a serious error in judgement on the part of the therapist to require that. As a TS, I have come to the realization that I need all the available help there is and am not ashamed to say that I could not pass well with just clothes and makeup.
Isn't it enough that we have so many issues to deal with already without adding another and even more difficult task?
If you can get another therapist do that. Or at least find a way to allow yourself to transition slowly, carefully, and thoughtfully. Going out full time before any HRT is none of those things.
Please be careful and remember that you are important and do not deserve to suffer at teh hands of a professional as well as society.

I think the real point of the RLE is to find out whether you can survive even if you don't pass.  I don't think passing is a prerequisite for SRS, nor should it be.  I doubt you think it should be either, but look at what you wrote.  It seems to presume that someone who can't pass should not seek surgery.  If that's what you think ...

Granted, you didn't say "I don't think anyone should do RLT without HRT under any circumstances, not even by choice."  But you seem to have headed in that direction in this thread.  Please clarify whether that is or is not what you mean.

Yes, I do not mind elaborating.
The statement "to allow yourself to transition slowly, carefully, and thoughtfully...." was addressed to Icephoenyx based on her comments. I still maintain that, in her case, the action of the therapist "insisting" or trying to "force" her to do this sounded inconsiderate and without any real concern for her safety or a true understanding of how difficult transition can be for some.
There are other comments here to that effect as well.

In my view, HRT, is the physical aspect of aligning ourselves with the inner desire to become a whole and complete woman. The statement "my mind is fine ..." by Starbuck is worthy of consideration. She seems to have a good grasp of the entire process.
My comments never said "anyone" or everyone". Where did that come from?

As a matter of understanding - I think it is as important to pass as it is to know who you are. That always seems to happen, interestingly enough, when determination is combined with HRT and a willingness to find peace of mind.

This is a very interesting discussion. It is enjoyable to read the various comments regardless the point of view or any misunderstanding.
What I most appreciate is that people here actually want to share opinions which is how we find solutions to various problems.

Please continue. You are all interesting people.
And Miss Starbuck, always be who you are; serious and with a sense of humor.

no, passing is not a prerequisite, but tbh, if you dont want to, id say thats fething weird... HRT helps you pass better if you do not. The op of this thread commented about how a therapist wouldnt prescribe till after rle...  i think most of us agree if you dont pass, you arnt testing anything but your will power... Glenda... rle is not to see if you can survive if you dont pass... that would be cruelty... and frankly just stupid... RLE is not some test of how serious you are, teach you to cope with transphobia or any other notion... its there to see if you really are the gender you feel and if you can live a productive life as it.... If you dont need hrt to pass, its not as big an issue as if you do...

it all comes down here to if you pass or not pre hrt...

Come on ladies.... lets all get down off the drama llama's and stop trampling this topic into powder with misinterpretation of posts...

RLT is meant to make sure you can handle living in that role before SRS is is allowed.
Plain and simple.

Precicely... its a back covering measure incase after srs, said person finds they cant cope as a man/woman/teapot and wants to go back, or is required to.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 12, 2008, 09:14:21 PM
Precicely... its a back covering measure incase after srs, said person finds they cant cope as a man/woman/teapot and wants to go back, or is required to.

I think the bigger danger is the transitioner finding out years later that youth has passed away and that passing has left the building.  Many of us have experienced it, including MAP and Tree.  I am one.

Will I survive?  Jury's still out.  Will Vexing survive?  Done deal.

That's not to say I think a shrink should deny HRT until after RLT.  I even passed without HRT, back in the day; so RLT without HRT is not necessarily a reliable measure of one's emotional strength, or liklihood of not regretting surgery.  But, if someone has the chutzpah to go RLT all commando and stuff (i.e., no HRT, can't pass without it) I have tons of respect for them.  There's no doubt in my mind that they can handle passing or not passing.

Besides, passing, for those who can do it, is always a choice.  If someone were to find that they could not stand being treated like a woman, they can always out themselves.  Expecting people to adhere to gender stereotypes or stereotypical gender roles is what's broken.

It's about reducing discomfort to a manageable level.  If someone feels like they won't transition if they don't pass, then they have a different set of triggers for discomfort.  In my view, those triggers do not dictate mental health or legitimacy.  I just think anyone who thinks there is one way to do things is being unnecessarily crtitical and/or restrictive.

I hope this all makes sense.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 12, 2008, 09:14:21 PM
Precicely... its a back covering measure incase after srs, said person finds they cant cope as a man/woman/teapot and wants to go back, or is required to.

There's also the issue of those who jump into SRS, regret it, then attempt to sue their surgeons/psychologists and make those surgeons/psychologists more reluctant to ever let anyone else through the system.
It just makes it harder for everyone else to get where they want to be - which is not what any of us want.  :(

that was what i said...

Quote from: Starbuck on December 13, 2008, 07:55:52 AM
that was what i said...

Not quite; you missed the reluctance factor for future cases a surgeon/psyche might have due to legal issues in the past.

Never seen reluctance.... that goes against thier medical oaths... but determination to make sure the diagnosis is totally correct? sure.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 14, 2008, 08:39:02 AM
Never seen reluctance.... that goes against thier medical oaths... but determination to make sure the diagnosis is totally correct? sure.

And no doctor has ever gone against their medical oaths, amirite? ;)

The first "program" (LOL) that I went to they wanted me to jump through hoops for them and constantly prove myself, which in a way was good because I needed to come out of my shell. But they clearly wanted my money or were too concerned about saving themsleves and kept referring to the older SOC in thier thinking, wanting me to make a social transition before ever touching hormones, they held hormones over my head like a trophy to be won only after a loooong time of work.

Once the required 3 months were up I saw that they were probably not going to budge anytime soon. I still stuck with it for another month but then was out of there. Really after the first month I was totally ready and not just thinking about it anymore, but they refused to notice, if they were more skilled or at least more concerned with thier patient's well being they would have. I feel that practice is unethical. It is a tool that is easily abused to the benefit of the practitioner and yes some ppl do need it, but I'm guessing most do not. I'm sorry also for the ppl who fall for the lines of reasoning/dogma/ideology given by the practitioner when it is unnecessary in thier case.

Quote from: Vexing on December 14, 2008, 01:53:46 PM

Quote from: Starbuck on December 14, 2008, 08:39:02 AM
Never seen reluctance.... that goes against thier medical oaths... but determination to make sure the diagnosis is totally correct? sure.

And no doctor has ever gone against their medical oaths, amirite? ;)

Nitpicking is not really the point...

Well I probably shouldn't say this but back in the 60's I couldn't find a doctor who would prescribe hormones (nobody ever heard of TS). I stole what I could, even bought some veterinary grade hormones, whatever I could get. The last doctor I saw asked me if I had taken anything. I said yes and told him what. He  was floored and said "That;s dangerous! You have to stop!" I said "No." With some consternation he decided it was better if I was on prescribed and monitored hormone therapy than risking my life with the other stuff. Sometimes digging in you heels is productive  ::)

Quote from: Starbuck on December 16, 2008, 12:31:12 AM

Quote from: Vexing on December 14, 2008, 01:53:46 PM

Quote from: Starbuck on December 14, 2008, 08:39:02 AM
Never seen reluctance.... that goes against thier medical oaths... but determination to make sure the diagnosis is totally correct? sure.

And no doctor has ever gone against their medical oaths, amirite? ;)

Nitpicking is not really the point...

No, the point is that doctors are ordinary people who have bias and can discriminate against others, despite the Hippocratic Oath.
I'm in IT. If I get three electric shocks plugging in three servers of the same model, I'm going to try to get out of working with that model ever again or make sure it is thoroughly checked out before I go near it.
If a surgeon has three lawsuits put against him by trans people for performing SRS when they were not ready for it, it stands to reason that he will be VERY cautious about future surgeries, yes?
If a psychologist is sued for okaying SRS, they are more likely to deny future surgeries.

But calling it nitpicking is a much more convenient way of ignoring common sense, amirite?

You could just dry your hands you know?

Quote from: Starbuck on December 16, 2008, 08:30:22 PM
You could just dry your hands you know?

Fun fact: pure water is not actually conductive.

Wow. I just saw this.

Not only is RLE absolutely not a prerequisite for HRT -- it's not even a requirement that the patient want to transition at all!

Quote from: HBIGDASoC4GIDv6
Can Hormones Be Given To Those Who Do Not Want Surgery or a Real-life Experience
yes, but after diagnosos and psychotherapy with a qualified mental health professional following minimum standards listed above.* Hormone therapy can provide significant comfort to gender patients who do not wish to cross live or undergo surgery, or who are unable to do so. In some patients, hormone therapy alone may provide sufficient symptomatic relief to obviate the need for cross living or surgery.

I would drop  in a second any power-tripping therapist who wouldn't repsect me as a client or patient at least to the level suggested by the SoC. There's prudence, and then there's the "Father Knows Best" mentality.

>:-) >:-) >:-) >:-)

See: http://wpath.org/Documents2/socv6.pdf -- it's a good read, and short too.

*"minimum standards listed above" are, roughly, Eligibility: 18 or older, knows risks and benefits of hormones, has been in therapy OR in RLE for 3 months -- AND -- Readiness: RLE or therapy confirm desirability, patient isn't nuts or is becoming less so in other areas of life, patient will be responsible -- OR -- special circumstances, e.g., already self-medicating.

Quote from: Vexing on December 16, 2008, 11:06:13 PM

Quote from: Starbuck on December 16, 2008, 08:30:22 PM
You could just dry your hands you know?

Fun fact: pure water is not actually conductive.

Ill go out on a limb here and assume that your not working in a lab before handling servers ;) pure water does not exist naturally, it has to be produced.

Alyssa M : indeedyBUT SOC are for transition, if you want to  transition, you need to follow your country's soc for that... if thats rle before hrt... its just how it goes, as cruel as it may be.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 17, 2008, 12:32:19 AM
Ill go out on a limb here and assume that your not working in a lab before handling servers ;) pure water does not exist naturally, it has to be produced.

Okay.
Can you let me know what your problem is with me, and then bog off?
Thanks in advance  :)

Edit, for attitude:
SoC is for more than just transitioners, and right practice does not depend on one's nationality, even if access does.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 16, 2008, 11:06:16 PM
Not only is RLE absolutely not a prerequisite for HRT -- it's not even a requirement that the patient want to transition at all!

Whether or not RLE is necessary has nothing to do with what's in the WPATH SOC.  Whats important is your therapist's interpretation of it and what they think is right.

And private practice can be just as restrictive in treatment as any public health service.  And in England most places follow a far stricter version of SOC than other countries, so country does make quite a difference.

Okay, after recieving complaints about this, I feel I should say something.

Can people please keep on topic, and discuss the issue at hand, rather than using the thread as a battleground for petty squabbles and ad hominem attacks. That solves nothing.

Thank you.

I am hoping that the woman and the therapist will come to some reasonable conclusion on how to proceed. If HRT is a means to making transition easier and less stressful and it is decided that it would help integrate the person better into her new role, then that should be what determines the method.
Is this more idealistic than realistic?

Quote from: Patriciaz on December 18, 2008, 11:05:34 AM
I am hoping that the woman and the therapist will come to some reasonable conclusion on how to proceed. If HRT is a means to making transition easier and less stressful and it is decided that it would help integrate the person better into her new role, then that should be what determines the method.
Is this more idealistic than realistic?

I should hope not but In my experience it was. I didn't get approval until I just started doing things on my own, if I hadn't I would have kept getting the runaround. I tried to explain things just as you stated but it didn't matter. It would be nice if everyone used their commonsense and heart in these situations but some just use dollar signs and fear of lawsuits. I hope it is not the norm but suppose it is. I hear of ppl doing 2-3 years of therapy beforehand and wonder why, if they just fell for the same lines and trusted their doctors too much.

Rumors:  If you are already self-medicating, then they can prescribe your meds under "least harm."  If you are hooking, then they can skip RLT under "least harm."  If you have already scheduled the surgery in Thailand and are about to wire the money, then they can skip RLT under "least harm."  Or so I've heard.  "Least harm" shields them from potential liability, or so I've heard.

Yes Glenda, and isn't it amazing how they all of the sudden are o.k. with it all? Because they are safe.

I always thought RLE before HRT is "just somewhat" cruel, not mention unneccesary... Anyway, reading this topic i remembered a report, or a short doucmentary, i saw on youtube about canadian transwoman who was also required to "live as desired gender" before HRT. And although i have seen many videos and reports on transwoman, this one was something i particulary remeber. So take a look...

good god....

not even wearing a wig or TRYING to pass?

thats hardly living as the desired gender? thats living in thier clothes and pronouns...

Quote from: Starbuck on December 19, 2008, 01:24:22 PM
...living in thier clothes and pronouns...

Sadly, that's how I feel some days. 

I used to think RLE should be a requirement.  But I met a lot of folks who had surgery, and some who turned back before surgery.

One person did RLE and had her surgery date and everything paid for and then backed out days before the surgery.  I don't think it was RLE that convinced her to back out.  I think it was the looming prospect of surgery. 

Another I know is a MTF post-op person who skipped RLE, went to Thailand, and still lived as male afterwards.  She had no regrets though, and was very happy.

Why should it be necessary to conform to some gender stereotype to have control over one's own body?  I can't see it.  RLE before SRS seems like a good idea for most.  But I'm not convinced it is a predictor of outcome in terms of post-op satisfaction/regret.  The people who regret surgery seem to all have gone through RLE, and several had other types of surgery first, and lived in the new gender for years before expressing regret.

glenda just expressed something i feel is key here... Gender has a lot more to it, than gender roles...

Rlt is there to try and teach people that, more than anything. There are some parts of being a woman that are as non optional as some parts of being  male... its why the two sexes are different. After all, if they were the same, we wouldnt transition or feel so much pain of difference?

Gender steriotypes is a phrase bandied around here, and too often  imo, mostly by transwomen complaining about things, things they feel are 'degrading' or 'too steriotypical' erm, did you ever consider things are a steriotype in some caes, because they just are fact? that they DO happen most of the time?

Ill tell you one thing, for most transwomen, you cannot afford to rock the boat by breaking the norm, yes... normal does exist... and im afraid normal is a forgotten concept here, its the huge part of passing, and what rlt tries to teach ive begun to find. It tries to settle the person  into thier... for want of a better word, and forgive the use, desired sex... lets face it, you werent raised it, you dont know how to be it... theres a lot more to being female or male than being it in your head, if you dont know how to be it outside, you're screwed, and rlt is there as a prooving ground for you in the world... to try and let you learn to interact normally with people... to become a normal, cohesive happy person. Some parts of normality apear steriotypical to some here. I'm affraid that its just tough, they cry about not fitting in, and then talk about shunning gender steriotypes, and dont quite know themselves what a steriotype is...
its like the fisherman who belives 90% of the fish is skin and bones, and removes that, his meal is not fulfilling, and he is left wanting.

I agree with what you said Starbuck.  I think that RLE is a necessary part of transition (for a transsexual anyway).

But still that isn't the same as making it a requirement for HRT particularly or even surgery.  It might be necessary if you are ever gonna fit into the world we live in, and to have a decent life.  But why should it be necessary for HRT/surgery?  The ability/willingness to live as a functional part of society isn't a requirement for most other medical treatments.

Quote from: Jenny on December 23, 2008, 06:22:12 AMThe ability/willingness to live as a functional part of society isn't a requirement for most other medical treatments.

I think it would be very difficult to find a doctor who would perform any procedure that would have a NEGATIVE impact on a person's ability to function as a part of society.

Quote from: Northern Jane on December 23, 2008, 06:39:34 AM

Quote from: Jenny on December 23, 2008, 06:22:12 AMThe ability/willingness to live as a functional part of society isn't a requirement for most other medical treatments.

I think it would be very difficult to find a doctor who would perform any procedure that would have a NEGATIVE impact on a person's ability to function as a part of society.

Since when does having HRT/surgery have a negative impact on a person's ability to function in society?  Even if somebody was still living as their birth-sex at the time?

I think its important to recognise that HRT/surgery won't in themselves make all a persons problems go away.  And in themselves aren't enough to make somebody suddenly be able to fit in and function in society in their gender.  But i wouldn't imagine it making a transsexuals problems worse.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 22, 2008, 07:46:42 PM
Gender steriotypes is a phrase bandied around here, and too often  imo, mostly by transwomen complaining about things, things they feel are 'degrading' or 'too steriotypical' erm, did you ever consider things are a steriotype in some caes, because they just are fact? that they DO happen most of the time?

Gender stereotypes themselves aren't so much the problem.  People making others feel like they have to fit those stereotypes is.  No matter how many women do fit a given stereotype, there is nothing wrong with the few that don't.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 22, 2008, 07:46:42 PM
Ill tell you one thing, for most transwomen, you cannot afford to rock the boat by breaking the norm, yes... normal does exist... and im afraid normal is a forgotten concept here, its the huge part of passing, and what rlt tries to teach ive begun to find. It tries to settle the person  into thier... for want of a better word, and forgive the use, desired sex... lets face it, you werent raised it, you dont know how to be it... theres a lot more to being female or male than being it in your head, if you dont know how to be it outside, you're screwed, and rlt is there as a prooving ground for you in the world... to try and let you learn to interact normally with people... to become a normal, cohesive happy person. Some parts of normality apear steriotypical to some here. I'm affraid that its just tough, they cry about not fitting in, and then talk about shunning gender steriotypes, and dont quite know themselves what a steriotype is...
its like the fisherman who belives 90% of the fish is skin and bones, and removes that, his meal is not fulfilling, and he is left wanting.

If you are a woman, ie you identify as female, particularly if you have identified as female since a very young age, what would you need to learn about living as a woman.  Surely you already have all the 'inate female traits' (if they exist) and have picked up on the social gender role stuff through living in the real world with women for however long you've been alive?  I don't get why this would be such a mystery.

You don't need to be 'normal', to be a cohesive happy person thanks, nor do you need to 'fit in' to somebody else's view of how you should be have.  It seems you either don't know what a stereotype is or don't realise what aspect of gender stereotypes is the problem (see my statement above).

Ignoring that for a minute, you think trans people need time to learn how to live in their new gender role...  Why do they need to have their original genitalia to do that?  Why do they need to go through that learning process before surgery rather than after?  I don't see how this protects anyone other than misguided cis people.

"and im afraid normal is a forgotten concept here, its the huge part of passing"

My experiences run very counter to this.  I think what tends to out people is blatant physical traits (including voice) that don't match the gender they're trying to pass as and/or looking uncomfortable or like you're putting on a drag act.  Do non-gender normative cis women have their gender/sex routinely questioned?  No, unless their physical appearance is sufficiently masculine.

I outed myself as being gender variant on a group therapy course recently and most people there seem to think I'm on the FTM spectrum.  Normal is a big part of passing only if your appearance is borderline and you wish to avoid any unwanted attention.

Quote from: Northern Jane on December 23, 2008, 06:39:34 AM
I think it would be very difficult to find a doctor who would perform any procedure that would have a NEGATIVE impact on a person's ability to function as a part of society.

What constitutes a 'negative impact' for a given person is a complex thing, and isn't solely determined by functioning in mainstream society.  That said, I function much better in society as a happy genderqueer weirdo than I ever did as a miserable guy. As Jenny said, SRS has little or no bearing on people's ability to function in society anyway, unless your job involves getting your junk out.

Quote from: Jenny on December 23, 2008, 06:22:12 AM
I agree with what you said Starbuck.  I think that RLE is a necessary part of transition (for a transsexual anyway).

But still that isn't the same as making it a requirement for HRT particularly or even surgery.  It might be necessary if you are ever gonna fit into the world we live in, and to have a decent life.  But why should it be necessary for HRT/surgery?  The ability/willingness to live as a functional part of society isn't a requirement for most other medical treatments.

How many other surgeries change ones ability to function in society of flip it on its head more than changing gender socially?

Andra: you have a point, but i disagree, normal is still relevant, to many of us, its the reason we transitioned in the first place, and as for traits... true, can be so, but lets not be so presumptious to consider that inante behaviours are enough... it takes natal females years of learning to fit into society as functional women... why would transwomen with no background be able to cope straight off without some equalisation? Not saying they need to learn to suck eggs like a girl ofcourse XD

I'm late getting to this thread, but I just finished reading it through from the beginning. Quite a few great ideas, and not a little bit of disagreement. Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

Starbuck, I'm amazed at how similar we are in our thoughts on these subjects. I suspect we could be good friends. Feel free to PM me, ok?

Attempting to stay on subject (as the rest of the conversation has already covered my thoughts, so far), I'd like to give my opinion on HRT and RLT. I believe that anyone that has sought therapy and been "diagnosed" as having gender dysphoria, and who is ready to accept the effects of HRT, should be allowed to start the regimen. There are several months at the beginning before the effects are permanent (well, unless you're talking T, which has immediate and irreversible effects), and this time can be often used to determine if hormones are even right for the person. Many people find that it makes things worse, and pull out completely. I have also met some "serious crossdressers" who are on hormones, and will go no further towards transitioning. They simply find the balance they need, and that's what all this is about, isn't it?

As for RLT, or RLE as I prefer to call it.... well, it was my understanding that it was simply a requirement put in place to give the transitioner time to learn to live as a female, and make sure they could handle it. It's quite an enormous change to one's life, and has it's own set of unique issues. I have personally met people that have failed at RLE, even after several years of being FT, and have gone back to living as men. They just found that they couldn't accept the new role, regardless of their personal gender. It's not for everyone, no matter if you're TS or not. Everyone is different, and many find a balance point for their GID that does not require fully transitioning, or even living FT. For some, giving up the male privilege is just not something they can handle.

As for requiring RLE before HRT - well, that's just hogwash, imo. There's such a wide spectrum of needs for trans people, as not everyone requires the same help, path, or has the same end point... it just makes no sense to require someone to go out into the world looking their worst, in order to get permission to start a lengthy process like HRT. I understand that some say 'well, there are side-effects', and yes, there are. But if you go off the hormones, especially if you're only on them a short period of time, most of the changes are not permanent (except in the case of T). But the benefits of the hormones are just amazing. Mental clarity, changes in perception, feelings, sensation, sexuality for some, and then all the physical changes that only help you to be gendered female when you are out trying to learn to live as a female. I started hormones after dressing for only 3 months, had FFS after 5, went FT at 5.5, and have never looked back. For me, this was what I should have done years ago. But that is not the case for many. I know of many girls that are on HRT for 6+ months before going FT (some for several years) - this only helps them integrate more smoothly when the time is right for them.

Every therapist I've heard of in my area only requires 3 months of therapy, and nothing else, to start hormones. Now, I don't know that I necessarily agree with that approach either, as I have met people who were still questioning whether they were actually trans, and yet started HRT. Some waffled for months, even as they developed breasts. Personally, I feel that is wrong. But, since the effects of E are not immediate, I guess in 'most' cases, no harm no foul. Still, I disagree with this approach.

I believe that both HRT and RLE are essential before undergoing GRS. Yes, one can still live as their birth gender after GRS, if they so choose... but changing your genitals is nothing short of a complete life-altering event. It affects SO much more than just what's in your pants. Well, unless you have no intention of using what's in your pants, I suppose. Preventing regret should be key to the process, and I believe that is why the standards are in place in the first place. They are certainly not fool-proof, as the human condition adds a unique uncertainty to everything we do - but they try.

Rebecca xxx

Quote from: Starbuck on December 23, 2008, 03:53:39 PM
How many other surgeries change ones ability to function in society of flip it on its head more than changing gender socially?

??? you think that SRS changes ones gender socially?  I'd have thought that going full-time/RLE is the process in which your "social gender" is changed.  In life relatively few people actually see whats in your pants!

Quote from: Rebecca Liz on December 23, 2008, 05:15:10 PM
I believe that both HRT and RLE are essential before undergoing GRS. Yes, one can still live as their birth gender after GRS, if they so choose... but changing your genitals is nothing short of a complete life-altering event. It affects SO much more than just what's in your pants. Well, unless you have no intention of using what's in your pants, I suppose. Preventing regret should be key to the process, and I believe that is why the standards are in place in the first place. They are certainly not fool-proof, as the human condition adds a unique uncertainty to everything we do - but they try.

Is changing genitals really that life-changing?  It really only effects your sexual relationships (unless you work in the sex industry i suppose).

For a non-transsexual person, or somebody who later has regrets, to go through with SRS, would result in a situation of gender dysphoria much like ours.  So to say its better to be really cautious and denying/delaying loads of people surgery for the sake of a few who might regret it seems a little odd to me.  Since the consequences for a person who regrets surgery are similar to the consequences for a transsexual who is denied surgery.

Quote from: Jenny on December 23, 2008, 06:25:16 PM
Is changing genitals really that life-changing?  It really only effects your sexual relationships (unless you work in the sex industry i suppose).

For an asexual person all it would mean would be either standing up or sitting down when they pee.

Personally, SRS is way down on my list of priorities. The money involved, the time off work and the potential risks...all of those make it a less than desirable procedure at the moment. I'd rather spend the cash on a deposit for a house.

But for many, it is something that is required to make one feel complete, whole. And for someone very much sexual, like myself, and attracted solely to women, it is mandatory for having a sexual relationship as a woman. The risk is worth the benefits, at least for me.

And yes, it is life-altering. True, most people won't ever know what's in my pants, but I do. And anyone I choose to have a relationship will. Without SRS, I am a freak that mostly only a small number of men can see as a sex object. With it, I am a complete woman, and can be treated like, and perform as such. Not by all, but by those who can accept me for whom I am.

Sure, if you fixate on it, not having a vagina will drive you nuts.
99% of my waking day, I don't even think about what's in my knickers.

You're a complete woman already. Vagina isn't what defines femininity.

I completely agree, and I'm not fixating on it. But just because you have no desire to use what's in your knickers doesn't mean nobody else does. And having the wrong tools for the job just doesn't work.

Yes, I am a woman now. Happy, successful, and attractive. I have integrated into society quite well, and have absolutely no regrets. However, if I am to have a relationship ever again, which is something that is very important to me, having the correct parts, and being a completely 'physical' woman as well and mental, emotional, and societal, is a requirement.

I did not judge you. Please don't just me. Or others. I am most certainly not alone in these thoughts...

Quote from: Rebecca Liz on December 23, 2008, 06:39:33 PM
And yes, it is life-altering. True, most people won't ever know what's in my pants, but I do. And anyone I choose to have a relationship will. Without SRS, I am a freak that mostly only a small number of men can see as a sex object. With it, I am a complete woman, and can be treated like, and perform as such. Not by all, but by those who can accept me for whom I am.

My point was that it is living as a woman that makes you a woman - that is the life altering part.  Having surgery on your genitals doesn't make you a woman!

And i am pre-op, but am still treated like a "complete woman" by everyone i know, including my girlfriend.

And maybe its just been the people i've gone out with, but is sex really that life altering?

Quote from: Rebecca Liz on December 23, 2008, 06:54:28 PM
Yes, I am a woman now. Happy, successful, and attractive. I have integrated into society quite well, and have absolutely no regrets. However, if I am to have a relationship ever again, which is something that is very important to me, having the correct parts, and being a completely 'physical' woman as well and mental, emotional, and societal, is a requirement.

Have you ever considered that you might find someone who is attracted to you and wants to have a relationship with you, regardless of what is between your legs?
If your potential partner requires you to have a vagina, then perhaps they aren't actually what you are looking for.
I certainly would never date someone like that...

Isn't this about what makes us feel complete, though? My existing parts have never been something I've enjoyed using. Why would I want to perpetuate that lie for the rest of my life? Transitioning was about being who I am, not who society wants me to be because of my DNA.

But to answer your question, yes, I've considered your option. However, I have absolutely no desire to use my parts as is any longer. I only did so up until now because that's what I had to work with. I am a different person now, as most of us are. It's time for me to feel complete for a change.

In addition, almost all lesbians do not like male genitalia. Yes, there are a few that do, but most do not. And since I don't like men, that's not an option. As for bi girls, again, I don't like my parts. They aren't "me". Seems like an obvious solution to me....

Surgery for some people is about feeling "complete" and that is understandable.

But the point i've been making, and i think Vexing is as well, is that while surgery may be necessary to be complete, your life isn't really changed that drastically by surgery.

Surgery doesn't make you a woman, being a woman does.

I believe I've made it abundantly clear that I agree on that point. But, I would disagree that my life won't be drastically changed by surgery. At a minimum, I would be able to have a sexual relationship again, which at this point, I cannot. The decision to have or not have surgery is a personal one, and one that is neither right nor wrong for any of us, and can be made for a myriad of various reasons. I am a woman, with or without GRS.  I was simply responding to the general comments made about how unimportant the surgery is, and how it should be unimportant to all. Time to get back on topic?

Quote from: Jenny on December 23, 2008, 07:41:39 PM
Surgery for some people is about feeling "complete" and that is understandable.

But the point i've been making, and i think Vexing is as well, is that while surgery may be necessary to be complete, your life isn't really changed that drastically by surgery.

Surgery doesn't make you a woman, being a woman does.

Not in the wish to be "complete" as a woman in the biological sense. I think the whole, "What it takes to be a woman," Argument is dumb cause everyone has different semantics for everything.

One person thinks woman means vagina-owning. Another thinks woman means the social roles.

And lots of stuff in between.


Maybe we should have a different official set of words. Like "SMLORPH" is the action of living as a woman, and Female is having a vagina. Honestly, my problem when I first started this entire thing was the physical part. The mental and social desires have only come in after that. I still lose sight of it too. The fact that the physical, to me, no matter how shallow is the BIG FREAKING PROBLEM. Only now its even MORE of a problem cause I socially think a lot more like a girl does, or "SMLORPH!!!"

Jenny: You miss my point, you said srs should be allowed any time... well, if its before its decided its right, it MIGHT ruin someones life...
The rest i find is interesting, what defines a woman?

Let me tell you how i feel, ive been full time now since June 07 i think? Either way, ive been living as a girl for a long ass time (hey im 21 ok? it feels like it)
My point is this, Hrt has done wonders for me, its made me feel human, like a real functional person. I attended boys school from the ages of 2-18, i had very little social female interaction outside my sister and mother till university, and when i transitioned... but somehow i socially adapted and integrated quickly and fully. 'Well you're a mental woman' some might say. True imo, But it works nicely for my next point dispite seeming like me felating my own ego...

Andra said that a rlt isnt needed... 'real' ts women shouldnt need to ajust, or learn to be women, i mean... its all there right? I disagree... being female is more than whats in your head, just as being male is. There is a mass of behaviour, ettiquette, social nuances... allsorts... And the rlt and transition is more than learning how to pass to 'get away' with being seen as a girl/woman in the m2f case.

Its to correct the mistake for the paitent, and for them to LIVE as the gender they are inside, I've heard some on the irc here say 'oh i was raised as a tomboy not a boy' well unless your parents thought you were female from the off, i doubt it. Very few to no m2fs are raised female, granted depending on age of transition. RLT/E is a time to learn things... One thing that needs learning for a lot of m2fs is that the male attitude of 'i dont need help, asking/admitting will make me seem week' is as out of place as a chicken in a driving school...

This forum often decends to fighting over issues, and argument, often i dont think either side knows what the feth is actually being argued over... its certainly not the topic posted in 99% of the time...

As for the complete/ real woman debate... how the feth did we get onto that joyful pile of unexploded ordnance?

Quote from: Starbuck on December 24, 2008, 01:59:43 AM
Jenny: You miss my point, you said srs should be allowed any time... well, if its before its decided its right, it MIGHT ruin someones life...

My point wasn't that surgery should be done at anytime, my point was to do with the process in which a therapist decides that it is right.

In almost all circumstances, i think that a trans-person would be better of doing RLE/HRT before having surgery.  But i also think that as adults, we are able to make decisions about what is best for us.  What i disagree with is the current situation of having to do one or two years of RLT (as defined by your therapist), after which you are deemed to be suitable for surgery.

The RLT has a fixed length, its got nothing to do with whats right for a patient.  And theres no rational reason for saying that at the end of this RLT is the right time for surgery - it could be the right decision before those years are complete, or it could be better for the person to wait.  Yet this fixed RLT system is what we use to say what is right or not for a person.

Quote from: Rebecca Liz on December 23, 2008, 08:37:11 PM
I believe I've made it abundantly clear that I agree on that point. But, I would disagree that my life won't be drastically changed by surgery. At a minimum, I would be able to have a sexual relationship again, which at this point, I cannot. The decision to have or not have surgery is a personal one, and one that is neither right nor wrong for any of us, and can be made for a myriad of various reasons. I am a woman, with or without GRS.  I was simply responding to the general comments made about how unimportant the surgery is, and how it should be unimportant to all. Time to get back on topic?

I have never said that surgery was unimportant (and please do reread what i've written if you think that i have).

My point was that while surgery is important, in the grand scheme of transitioning, surgery isn't the most life altering part of it.  I think that RLE is the most life altering part.  It is where you're interacting with society as your true gender.  And in starting RLE, you adjust to living as a woman (or man for ftm), and i think that this really is where a trans-persons life is most profoundly changed.

My point about sexual relationships, is that surgery may change drastically your relationship with a partner, this is just one person.  I don't think it alters drastically your interactions with society as a whole.

It depends, how many transpeople go to a therapist ready for surgery?
The point is adults regardless... you dont know best... the therapists are the experts. Thats why we go to them... The medical process for transition is structured for a reason. This topic is when hrt should be prescribed.. but ill ignore that... seems the trend... RLT/RLE is useful... it does serve a point, Granted, in some cases it is less worthy... me for example... ive been full time nearly 2 years, do i need to learn to live in my desired gender? answer? not really. But not everyone is in this case... Most people havent... so it serves a point...why should surgery be performed at any time? the point is the therapist decides... rlt is a period of assesment to see if the person is apropriate for that permanent step...  As sure as you are jenny... not everyone is, and the therapists are there to help and guide... fixed period of rlt is the only way to be fair... deciding one is perfect straight off, and another must wait longer is unfair... a fixed period is just fair...
Look,  you really need to stop looking at things so emotionally... you might WANT surgery tomorrow. but Im affraid that the system doesnt work that way, and never will. The medical world revolves around procedure, its there to keep them, and you safe.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 24, 2008, 08:29:53 AM
It depends, how many transpeople go to a therapist ready for surgery?
The point is adults regardless... you dont know best... the therapists are the experts. Thats why we go to them... The medical process for transition is structured for a reason. This topic is when hrt should be prescribed.. but ill ignore that... seems the trend... RLT/RLE is useful... it does serve a point, Granted, in some cases it is less worthy... me for example... ive been full time nearly 2 years, do i need to learn to live in my desired gender? answer? not really. But not everyone is in this case... Most people havent... so it serves a point...why should surgery be performed at any time? the point is the therapist decides... rlt is a period of assesment to see if the person is apropriate for that permanent step... As sure as you are jenny... not everyone is, and the therapists are there to help and guide... fixed period of rlt is the only way to be fair... deciding one is perfect straight off, and another must wait longer is unfair... a fixed period is just fair...
Look,  you really need to stop looking at things so emotionally... you might WANT surgery tomorrow. but Im affraid that the system doesnt work that way, and never will. The medical world revolves around procedure, its there to keep them, and you safe.

That is my point, RLT is treated as a period of assessment.  I agree that RLE is necessary as a part of transition.  I don't agree that it should be necessary as a period of assessment for either HRT or surgery.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't you still on a waiting list to see a specialist?    So haven't officially started RLT yet, despite being fulltime?  Doesn't that make you a perfect example of why the system is so meaningless?

A fixed period for RLT is equitable, but it goes against the idea of a therapist okaying hrt or surgery at the point at which it is right for the patient.  Everybody starts therapy from a different point, and progresses at different rates.

I haven't been arguing for people having hrt/surgery right away.  I've been arguing that hrt/surgery should be authorised when the patient is ready for it.

And for the record, i've been full-time since April 07, and my therapist has already decided that i have past my RLT and that i'm good for surgery.  (I've left England and there is only a one year RLT requirement here)

You'll notice i actually answered your queswtion in my post... shows how much you read ><

Quote from: Starbuck on December 24, 2008, 10:17:02 AM
You'll notice i actually answered your queswtion in my post... shows how much you read ><

You wasn't particularly clear in what you wrote.  Which is why i added question marks, not as questions, but because i wasn't completely certain that i had remembered/understood your situation correctly.

Jenny, it sounds like we're mostly on the same page with all this after all. I was actually mostly responding to someone else with my previous post - sorry you thought I hadn't fully read yours.

For the record, the process has moved extremely fast for me, personally, and I have been one of those that has been lucky enough to slip into living fully as a female with little to no adjusting. It was a very natural move for me. I am not even close to a year RLE, and have been approved for surgery by both of my doctors. This is a case where the therapists actually did do what was right for the individual, and not just stuck to the strict guidelines. Due to the extensive waiting lists, I will more than have my 1 year under my belt by the time my surgery date actually comes around. So, in the very unlikely event that something causes me to determine that this isn't right for me (like there's any chance that will happen), I have plenty of time to change my mind. Having said that, I know what is personally right for me, have never doubted it, and am more than happy to be living my life as a well-adjusted, loving, caring, intelligent, and attractive women. And with that, I'm off to a reunion party.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 24, 2008, 01:59:43 AM
Jenny: You miss my point, you said srs should be allowed any time... well, if its before its decided its right, it MIGHT ruin someones life...
The rest i find is interesting, what defines a woman?

... being female is more than whats in your head, just as being male is. There is a mass of behaviour, ettiquette, social nuances... allsorts... And the rlt and transition is more than learning how to pass to 'get away' with being seen as a girl/woman in the m2f case.

Its to correct the mistake for the paitent, and for them to LIVE as the gender they are inside ...

As for the complete/ real woman debate... how the feth did we get onto that joyful pile of unexploded ordnance?

I know your point was directed at Jenny, but please let me ask you this:  If a self-defined MTF did RLE and said they decided they did not want to live in the female gender role but still wanted surgery, do you think they should get their wish?  In other words, should success in RLE be a requirement for SRS?  And if someone said they wanted SRS regardless of whether they ever passed, should they be allowed to skip RLE?  If not, why not?

For the record, I think the "complete/real woman debate" keeps appearing because of the perceived importance of "mass of behaviour, ettiquette, social nuances," etc. and that conforming to the female gender role is a prerequisite to something or other.  That's why people keep pointing out that there are many natal women who don't conform to the female gender role, and question why an MTF should even want to try to do that, much less experience success at it, as a prerequisite to SRS.  And I think it is on topic because of the question: why should it NOT be a prerequisite for HRT and yet be a prerequisite for SRS?  And you MUST realize I don't think it should be a prerequisite for either of those things.  I'm just saying.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 24, 2008, 08:29:53 AM
It depends, how many transpeople go to a therapist ready for surgery?
The point is adults regardless... you dont know best... the therapists are the experts. Thats why we go to them... The medical process for transition is structured for a reason. ... The medical world revolves around procedure, its there to keep them, and you safe.

Maybe I've misundersatood, but I think you are WAY too deferential to medical authority.  That issue is important to me because I was like that when I transistioned at around your age.  I took the MMPI and when my therapist got the results he said, "The only thing I see that is a potential problem is that you are too deferential to authority."  I see now that his point was that I have to take responsibility for my own transition, and not look to them to tell me whether it is right for me.

Someone pointed out to me that we all are self-diagnosed and self-treated, really.  The SoC are a rather meaningless framework that fits no one's needs perfectly.  Is it better than nothing?  I'm not convinced.  If the SOC lead someone to conclude that SRS is right for them, then the SoC have been harmful.  And I don't think it is a coincidence that those who regret transition by and large have complied with the SoC to the letter.  I think it could be a problem that they put too much faith in the SoC and perceive justification through their compliance with the SoC and the resulting external validation from medical authority figures.  Do you see where I'm coming from?

Well if they cant live as a woman but wnt it, or want it regardless of that... then no... they shouldnt... men getting vaginas is just weird...

as for the sucessful rle before official.. happens a lot.
Me? deferential? no, i know where medical authority has its place... if i was deferential id have stopped self prescribing hrt when my gp told me not to ;)

So mom, that's another "Do as I say, and not as I do thing again?"

No... this topic is about people who are seeing therapists... and in the process

if you were in this situation tekla and had to wait 6 years with not even SEEING a therapist or even starting hrt or rle, youd do things differently too hon, i was certainly not going to sit twiddling my thumbs...

But I don't have to, should I chose that route.  If I can pay for it, I can get it, its pretty much the American way, money is always a loophole.  I know people who have gone from 'discovery' to SRS in under a year, with FFS and HRT along the way.  Just a matter of funds and determination.

american way?  its the global way... i just cant afford any other route... so forgive me if i dont bow to your nations capitalist paradise...

Its not paradise for a lot of people.

Like we both said... money makes the world go round...

That it does.  The old golden rule, who has the gold makes the rules.

 Too be honest with you starbuck (though i doubt u'd like it) i'd have just moved to scotland where the wait is much less.  (18 months waiting list, though 3 or 4 months if you are happy going on the cancelation list, and a 1 year RLT instead of 2 years).  *shrugs*

With a postcode lottery health service, sometimes it is just better to go to a county where the resources are present...

That takes for granted that one can move... and isnt stuck with her only accomodation in the world tied to being at university where i am... i just cant afford it.

I think the problem stems from it being the only deal in the DSM that is self-diagnosed, and if you can do that, why can't you also choose the cure?

It gets pretty tricky if no one can dispute the claim.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 25, 2008, 03:24:56 PM
Well if they cant live as a woman but wnt it, or want it regardless of that... then no... they shouldnt... men getting vaginas is just weird...

From your response and previous posts, I gather that becoming "normal" is, in your view, the primary, and perhaps only, legitimate goal of transition.  The happiness of the individual is of no consequence.  Also, I must assume you have a problem with non-ops, since "men intentionally having vaginas" describes non-op FTMs, and is, in end result, no different than "men getting vaginas."  So I'll ask you the same question I ask those who have a problem with all, and not just some, T people.  Why are you so mean?

Quote from: glendagladwitch on December 29, 2008, 07:39:08 PM

Quote from: Starbuck on December 25, 2008, 03:24:56 PM
Well if they cant live as a woman but wnt it, or want it regardless of that... then no... they shouldnt... men getting vaginas is just weird...

From your response and previous posts, I gather that becoming "normal" is, in your view, the primary, and perhaps only, legitimate goal of transition.  The happiness of the individual is of no consequence.  Also, I must assume you have a problem with non-ops, since "men intentionally having vaginas" describes non-op FTMs, and is, in end result, no different than "men getting vaginas."  So I'll ask you the same question I ask those who have a problem with all, and not just some, T people.  Why are you so mean?

Much, much agreed. Also, all trans people can be labelled 'weird' by someone with a closed mind.  This sounds like a classic case of pulling the ladder up behind oneself.  A persons right to do what they need/want to do with their own body should never, ever, be dependent on the comfort levels of the close minded. If it were, none of us would be permitted to access treatment.

I disagree... there has to be SOME limits... im afraid i cant accept that situation, nor do i want to, sound biggoted? go write to your mp... im afraid Im as tollerant as i can be,and will tollerate a lot, but everyone has thier limit, anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 04:07:34 AM
I disagree... there has to be SOME limits... im afraid i cant accept that situation, nor do i want to, sound biggoted? go write to your mp... im afraid Im as tollerant as i can be,and will tollerate a lot, but everyone has thier limit, anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

"sound biggoted[sic]?"

Yes, absolutely it does, and hypocritical.

Your tolerance level is apparently small enough that despite understanding gender/body dysphoria due to experiencing it yourself, people's medical needs in that regard aren't valid if they are too 'weird'. 

By that standard, yes, im a biggot, sue me...

I do not understand gender/body dsyphoria as a whole topic... i doubt anyone on this board does...

I know how it feels to be female, trapped in a male form, how the hell does that qualify me to understand a male wanting a vagina, just because? I cant, you cant... only they can.

To me. thats Odd/weird/not right... 'I disagree' ill be nice and and blunt. Why should i understand that any more than any random non trans person? give me a break... the whole 'you're trans you ought to understand all deviance from gender norm' bull is frankly tireing...

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 11:02:57 AM
To me. thats Odd/weird/not right... 'I disagree' ill be nice and and blunt. Why should i understand that any more than any random non trans person? give me a break... the whole 'you're trans you ought to understand all deviance from gender norm' bull is frankly tireing...

Generally people who experience one sort of body dysphoria can relate at least to some extent with people who experience another.  Yes, you do get the occasional trans woman who is all 'I just cant understand trans men', but the vast majority of them can relate at least in broad terms to the concept.

Quite frankly I wouldn't expect the average cis person to be so heartless. 

For someone who wants to be nothing, you expect a damn lot...

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 12:04:23 PM
For someone who wants to be nothing, you expect a damn lot...

Excuse me?
1) My gender identity isn't 'nothing'
2) My gender identity isn't the entirety of my existence thanks
3) Expecting people to not be cissexist, cisnormativity reinforcing transphobes on a forum such as this isn't exactly asking for the moon on a stick

Anyway, this is turning into a slanging match that'd probably end up getting the thread locked.  I'm out before that happens.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 11:02:57 AM
By that standard, yes, im a biggot, sue me...

I do not understand gender/body dsyphoria as a whole topic... i doubt anyone on this board does...

I know how it feels to be female, trapped in a male form, how the hell does that qualify me to understand a male wanting a vagina, just because? I cant, you cant... only they can.

To me. thats Odd/weird/not right... 'I disagree' ill be nice and and blunt. Why should i understand that any more than any random non trans person? give me a break... the whole 'you're trans you ought to understand all deviance from gender norm' bull is frankly tireing...

I agree that I can't feel how Andra feels, being neutrois, or Nero for example, an FtM, or a whole bunch of other people on here. But that does not mean I have any right to deny them what I am asking for myself - recognition of my identity along with the corrective procedures I need to bring my body in line with that identity. Just because you don't understand somebody doesn't mean you can't have empathy with their plight. Besides, even from a purely selfish point of view, demanding rights for ourselves while denying them to others is a losing position - discrimination tends to bleed outwards again unless you kill it off completely.

Mina.

Quote from: Andra on December 30, 2008, 12:14:09 PM

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 12:04:23 PM
For someone who wants to be nothing, you expect a damn lot...

3) Expecting people to not be cissexist, cisnormativity reinforcing transphobes on a forum such as this isn't exactly asking for the moon on a stick

im not allowed to be normal?  to act and be like any other girl i know? Im sorry, but feth that... I did NOT transition to buck some gender trend, to fight some cause. I transitioned to live normally, and because i do, i am somehow something bad? I'm afraid you're as bad as you suggest i am... How DARE you suggest i should not be normal, you are transsexist, transormativity reinforcing cisphobe... ON THIS FORUM a forum of tollerance, acceptance, and FREEDOM of view, FREEDOM of choice, life, desire... MIND... you spout hatred of your own, and i will not stand by and accept that...

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 03:30:06 PM
im not allowed to be normal?  to act and be like any other girl i know? Im sorry, but feth that... I did NOT transition to buck some gender trend, to fight some cause. I transitioned to live normally, and because i do, i am somehow something bad? I'm afraid you're as bad as you suggest i am... How DARE you suggest i should not be normal, you are transsexist, transormativity reinforcing cisphobe... ON THIS FORUM a forum of tollerance, acceptance, and FREEDOM of view, FREEDOM of choice, life, desire... MIND... you spout hatred of your own, and i will not stand by and accept that...

o.O Wait, what?!
I said nothing about your gender identity, your gender expression, your gender presentation in this thread.  I do not subscribe to subversivism, gender identities within the binary (or norm) are equally valid to those that are not.  I do not and would never question your right do live within the oft expected role of your identified gender.

"How DARE you suggest i should not be normal"  I suggested nothing of the sort.  I spouted no hatred, merely countered yours, I didn't criticise your gender in any way.  I don't know where you've got this drivel from, but it clearly isn't from anything I've actually said.

you accused me of cisnormalitiy...

and as for the god damned point... arnt we talking about a MAN who wants a vagina? with a MALE gender identity?

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 03:51:38 PM
you accused me of cisnormalitiy...

and as for the god damned point... arnt we talking about a MAN who wants a vagina? with a MALE gender identity?

No, no I didn't.  Learn to read.  I accused you of reinforcing cisnormativity, or if you need it spelling out for you (which you clearly do), accused you of reinforcing the idea that normativity is somehow a superior way of being.  (Which is not to suggest that the converse is true, before you invent that strawman again).  You seem to love saying how normative you are, how would somebody agreeing with you be an 'accusation' anyway!  That's like the idea of me accusing you of being a woman...

You are the one wishing people to be denied their own bodily autonomy and you dare to accuse me of being a threat to people's freedom of choice?  How hypocritical can one person get.

i didnt deny it... i said it was weird... learn to read...

as for the cisnormativity... what if that is my belief? arnt you challenging MY right to an opinion?

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 03:51:38 PM
you accused me of cisnormalitiy...

and as for the god damned point... arnt we talking about a MAN who wants a vagina? with a MALE gender identity?

No the conversation was about people who don't necessarily want to go through with social transition and/or HRT.  That does NOT mean male identified.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 03:57:58 PM
as for the cisnormativity... what if that is my belief? arnt you challenging MY right to an opinion?

No, I'm merely responding to it.  You're pulling the same stunt that the religious right often pulls 'OMG by merely responding to my view you're impinging on MY RIGHT to have an opinion'.  No, no I'm not.  I have my right to respond to your opinion as well. 

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 03:57:58 PM
i didnt deny it... i said it was weird... learn to read...

"Well if they cant live as a woman but wnt it, or want it regardless of that... then no... THEY SHOULDNT..."
"I disagree... there has to be SOME LIMITS... im afraid i cant accept that situation, nor do i want to"
"To me. thats Odd/weird/NOT RIGHT..."
(emphasis added)

I hold my view stong... Why would one Not want to undergo a social transition, and actually be seen as the sex one truely is, than just get the surgery, that IS weird imo... A woman would not settle for living as the wrong sex with the right genetals would not satisfy her... or for a true man to live with a penis even if the rest of him was female...

it makes no sense. and anyone who would be happy with that i would actually question thier motives...

You are right...  we can bandy backwards and forwards 'you're infringing my opinion, no you are! no you are!' heck, it was sortof petty of me to pull that one... but admitedly, It is my view, ill ake that stand now as fact...

I do think normal is superior to abnormal. hell... society agrees... and no ammount of trans acceptance will ever change that.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 04:11:55 PM
I hold my view stong... Why would one Not want to undergo a social transition, and actually be seen as the sex one truely is, than just get the surgery, that IS weird imo... A woman would not settle for living as the wrong sex with the right genetals would not satisfy her... or for a true man to live with a penis even if the rest of him was female...

it makes no sense. and anyone who would be happy with that i would actually question thier motives...

You are right...  we can bandy backwards and forwards 'you're infringing my opinion, no you are! no you are!' heck, it was sortof petty of me to pull that one... but admitedly, It is my view, ill ake that stand now as fact...

I do think normal is superior to abnormal. hell... society agrees... and no ammount of trans acceptance will ever change that.

Because not everyone subscribes to social gender roles to the same extent.  Not everybody experiences dysphoria in exactly the same way.  Some people weigh everything up and it turns out that staying in their original social gender role is better for them.  Some people can deal with having the wrong secondary sex characteristics and being referred to with the wrong pronouns as long as they don't have the wrong junk in their underwear.  Lets not forget that for mtfs, bottom surgery includes removal of the main source of testosterone, the removal of which can help lessen dysphoria.  Also gender is a spectrum remember, some people who identify as more in-between or neither would probably place less emphasis on social transition to another gender role that isn't really right for them while still wanting rid of the outie. 

Questioning the motives of trans people... Now there's a new one, not.  Last I checked a lot of people still think gender dysphoria is a myth and we're all actually about masturbating into a pair of frilly knickers.

Amusingly you've accused me in this thread of playing the 'real TS' card (which is another thing you pulled out of your behind), but then you drag 'true man' into the discussion.

WTF, you see a retort to something you've said, admit that it was petty and then stand by it with no further justification given?

SOCIETY AGREES WITH ME SO THAT'S OK!!!111  I guess the only way you can deal with your own internalised transphobia is to attack those who are even less normal than you are.

Such is the nature of fecal matter...

it tends to flow down hill...

Yes, i stand by the statement... i admit the 'lawl opinion' bit was petty, not the statement i made bvefore it... please keep up love...

as for true man definition? i think i brought in true woman too... zomg. was that me making a binary dig? or wasnt it?

Look, ill be blunt,

Im a woman, in my mind, men and women exist, the end. The rest is weird... wrong? no, but weird... what is weird? strange? not understood? different? wow... almost seems apropriate doesnt it?

I dont care if you dont agree with me... you probably think me being a woman is weird. Fine... go for it. I dont expect you to understand me either... but then you had a go at being a woman... maybe you can?

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 04:42:37 PM
I dont care if you dont agree with me... you probably think me being a woman is weird. Fine... go for it. I dont expect you to understand me either... but then you had a go at being a woman... maybe you can?

You seem to take great delight in acting in a privileged manner.  Yes it flows down hill, but those above you have the perfect vantage point to see you spreading it and so will have little if any qualms about sending some down to you. (oh and isn't this a lovely metaphor)

Interesting change of tone from "Odd/weird/NOT RIGHT" (emphasis added) to simply weird.  How strange that you'd say that is being blunt.

Still you fail to see how somebody can be fine with both binary and non-binary genders and not believe one is superior to the other.  Not everybody has the need to elevate themselves above other groups of people.

No, just any human with half a hope of something more than poverty, being single, and boredom... life revolves around elevation above others, its called the food chain. Life is inequalities, doesnt mean one must be cruel, or nasty... Still, we drift from the point, what does equality have to do with me finding something weird?

afterall this is all because i find the concept of a man getting vagina (NOT a f2m) weird? We have established that as a m2f, i do not understand other genders and identities and fettishes related to gender simply because of that fact...

How many civil engineers are capable of designing aircraft... well they are engineers right?

Quote from: Andra on December 30, 2008, 04:52:54 PM
Not everybody has the need to elevate themselves above other groups of people.

QFT.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 04:42:37 PM
Look, ill be blunt,

Im a woman, in my mind, men and women exist, the end. The rest is weird... wrong? no, but weird... what is weird? strange? not understood? different? wow... almost seems apropriate doesnt it?

I dont care if you dont agree with me... you probably think me being a woman is weird. Fine... go for it. I dont expect you to understand me either... but then you had a go at being a woman... maybe you can?

You were more blunt before when you said a natal male wanting to have SRS to have a vagina, but with no intention of living as female, should not be permitted to have the operation.  That's not just saying it's weird.  That's denying others control over their bodies.  There are a ton, maybe a majority, of folks who would deny you that same autonomy.  And you are as bad as them.  Feel proud.  Apparently it's normal to be a hypocritical prick.

Some people have a desire to amputate limbs... some people want to do all sorts of bizare things... should we let them just because they want to? it IS weird... im not a hypocrite, it IS disturbing and it IS weird, as is the desire for a bloke to want a vagina...

I dont find how you think im a hypocrite? there is a significant difference between someone being transsexual... clinically diagnosed with a disorter.. GID... Born in the wrong body, to someone wanting a certain sexual organ for whatever reason... As ive said, no real woman would be satisfied with just the right bits and the wrong life...  To me... a woman, it is weird... Thats my view, deal with it.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 31, 2008, 04:10:49 AM
Some people have a desire to amputate limbs... some people want to do all sorts of bizare things... should we let them just because they want to? it IS weird... im not a hypocrite, it IS disturbing and it IS weird, as is the desire for a bloke to want a vagina...

I dont find how you think im a hypocrite? there is a significant difference between someone being transsexual... clinically diagnosed with a disorter.. GID... Born in the wrong body, to someone wanting a certain sexual organ for whatever reason... As ive said, no real woman would be satisfied with just the right bits and the wrong life...  To me... a woman, it is weird... Thats my view, deal with it.

I don't see why people who want to amputate limbs shouldn't be allowed.  Body dysmorphia can ruin people's lives, some people may end up significantly better off minus a limb.

The only 'significant difference' is that your form of dysphoria is approved by a reasonable portion of the medical community.  Some of us are not in such a privileged position.  You don't get to hold a monopoly on being 'born in the wrong body'.  The medical community are NOT infallible.  If the medical community tomorrow wrote a treatment path for neutroises into the WPATH/HBSOC would they then magically begin to have a real medical condition whereas today they don't?

Reasons for wanting 'a certain sexual organ' can include being born in the wrong body.  "no real woman would be satisfied with just the right bits and the wrong life" I wonder, do you think that every person who transitions happily FTM identifies as male and every person who transitions happily MTF identifies female?  Because that simply isn't true.  One can transition FTM because of identifying masculine rather than male.  One can desire to physically transition MTF due to IDing female (or more on the female side) while still feeling 'male role' fits better due to being masculine (or more on the masculine side).  There are other factors too like not passing well, lack of acceptance of others around them, etc that may make somebody not wish to socially transition.

You seem to be the only person in this thread who is equating non-transitioning with being a bloke.

You're being a hypocrite because as far as many people are concerned you're a man wanting a vagina and a pair of breasts and to be called a female name.  You can respond with 'I am a woman duh' as much as you want, say that people accept you because you pass and you're therefore extended assumed-cis-privilege, it won't change the fact that others view what you are as "Odd/weird/not right...".  This is precisely why you're twiddling your thumbs on a 6 year NHS waiting list.  Adequate financial resources don't get diverted from curing physical illnesses to giving surgery to 'weirdos'. 

Now who is nitpicking?

as for my situation, You ought to know that i am not 'a bloke' I'm genetically a female... and as for the 6 years... well im going in for surgical consulation for corrective surgery in april ;)

Quote from: Starbuck on December 31, 2008, 06:07:22 AM
Now who is nitpicking?

as for my situation, You ought to know that i am not 'a bloke' I'm genetically a female... and as for the 6 years... well im going in for surgical consulation for corrective surgery in april ;)

Well that's ok for you then, but what about all the XY women here?  As usual your true colours come out when you try and use your genetics to justify your gender identity.  Being IStF rather than MtF doesn't stop people applying the 'weirdo' label to you.  (Also, just fyi, chromosomal sex isn't the only way cis people decide totally defines what sex/gender we reaaally are.)

I never did... YOU brought up my genetics, you brought up me as a case... i simply shot your case down.

Im afraid that nothing you say will change my view on the case at hand, 'its weird' is my final word, continue arguing if you wish, continue griping, i really dont give a damn. Happy new year babes.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 31, 2008, 07:09:50 AM
I never did... YOU brought up my genetics, you brought up me as a case... i simply shot your case down.

Im afraid that nothing you say will change my view on the case at hand, 'its weird' is my final word, continue arguing if you wish, continue griping, i really dont give a damn. Happy new year babes.

Er, no I didn't.  Genetics were never mentioned by me.

I have no intention of changing your views.  I'm well aware such efforts are futile.  It's just amusing to hand you spades and watch you dig.

me dig? ive yet to change view love ;) Its fun watching you get angryer and angryer tbh :P its giving me something to do.

as for genetics, you did/... you refered to me as a 'bloke' thus raising the key starting sex point... you really have a bad memory dont you?

Hrmmm erm well maybe not my place to say but maybe the pm system perhaps? :embarrassed:

Locked until it's 20 below. :)