Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've read some other posts lately on this topic, but none of them seem to quite get to an aspect that has been weighing on my mind. First a little background:

I'm 39 years old. Married for almost 17 years. We have three children aged 8, 6, and 4. My wife knew about my TG side in terms of crossdressing and general gender questioning before we were married. Back in our 20's she even helped me dress and do my makeup, and attended TG events with me occasionally.

However, as with most couples, our marriage has changed a lot over the years. For reasons I'll go into another time (my wife was not one of the factors involved) I forced myself back into the closet in my late 20's and "decided" to live as happy a life as I could as a man.

Fast forward a decade or so, and I'm in therapy dealing with my transgendered feelings honestly for the first time in my life. And while my wife is supportive of the therapy, and happy with a lot of the tangible results she has seen (an end to persistent depression, an end to alcohol abuse, better communication between us), she has very real and deep concern about what it might mean to our marriage when I go through with transition.

I'm sure that's very common for spouses of transitioning partners. But there is another aspect I'd like to focus on that I don't see mentioned much: I'm not sure I want to stay married to her after I transition.

I don't want that to sound callous or cold. It's really a pretty wrenching realization. The thing is everyone seems to easily see that a wife of a MtF spouse "didn't sign up for" what amounts to a lesbian relationship post transition, and therefore need not feel guilty should she decide to end things as a result. But the thing is, I only signed up to play "husband" in the first place because I was in deep denial about the depth of feeling and integrity of my transgendered self. Finally confronting that fundamental dishonesty about myself opens up a lot of things about my relationships. Other people seem to have an easy time understanding why my wife might not want a lesbian relationship, but I don't see why it should be assumed that I want a lesbian relationship myself.

Please understand the problem is not that I don't love my wife. I do. We've been together for more of our lives than we've been apart now (we were dating & engaged for about 3 years before being married). We have three wonderful children together whom we both want the best for.

But now that I'm finally coming forward honestly about being transsexual and my plans to transition things are just different between us. Truth be told they were already changing before I came out to her with any of this. We've been acting more like roommates than spouses for a while.

I don't want to impact the kids any more than absolutely necessary (I have a whole other set of concerns there related to transition). But I'm having trouble seeing this marriage survive, and unlike some others I think that may be for the best.

Can anyone else out there relate to this situation in some way? I'd like to remain friends with my wife and close to her regardless. I'm just not sure remaining married will be part of that.

I'm confused. I understand your not being able to see your marriage survive transition. But it seems to me like your only problem with the situation is having a "lesbian" relationship. It's just a word. What's the difference between a heterosexual relationship and a homosexual one? Other than equipment. Absolutely none. What is the difference between playing a husband and wife, and a wife and wife? Every family has things that need to be done, the mortgage needs to get paid, the chores need to be done, the kids need to be fed and cared for. And this all has to happen between two people, regardless of gender.

I don't know if I'm just having trouble understanding your question, so if I am, could you please rephrase it?

I suppose I was a little too vague/confusing in explaining. I'll try to be a little more specific.

Without going into graphic detail I'll note that there is no sexual relationship between us anymore. That's not a new thing. It's been like that for years. At one point a while back she explained she was no longer sexually attracted to me. I tried to do something about that for a while. But after the decision to transition it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. She's not sexually into other women and isn't likely to change her mind about that at her age. 

I'm basically bisexual, though I confess that if I had to start over I'd be more likely to seek a male than a female partner. However I have no desire to play a "male" role in bed for anyone.

If someone else can't be attracted to me as a woman there is going to be a certain kind of intimacy missing from any relationship. That's not a problem for friends. But lovers... which is certainly one aspect of a marriage I don't want to pretend doesn't mean anything to me... need a certain level of attraction and intimacy which I don't think we have anymore, and aren't likely to recover.

Dana, Welcome to Susans :)

Your question is the flip side of what many SO's ask themselves, and need to answer, in order to see if the relationship will work out. It's not a bad question either. I think you have your answer, too.

Quote from: Dana_W on November 16, 2008, 11:35:17 AM
The thing is everyone seems to easily see that a wife of a MtF spouse "didn't sign up for" what amounts to a lesbian relationship post transition, and therefore need not feel guilty should she decide to end things as a result. But the thing is, I only signed up to play "husband" in the first place because I was in deep denial about the depth of feeling and integrity of my transgendered self. Finally confronting that fundamental dishonesty about myself opens up a lot of things about my relationships. Other people seem to have an easy time understanding why my wife might not want a lesbian relationship, but I don't see why it should be assumed that I want a lesbian relationship myself.

And who says that you are somehow a bad person for feeling this way? I would not think less of you if you decided that you needed to end your marriage because of the intimacy issues. There are some couples who remain as "sisters" after transition, but if you are not comfortable with that, then you need to discuss things with your wife.

A lot of marriages/relationships don't survive transition. Some of us, like me, wish that the number that do survive was higher, but even then, it would never be 100%. Some end because the spouse feels betrayed or lied to for a number of years. Some end because the spouse is inflexible and refuses to even *try* to save the relationship. Still others end because people in the relationship now need to walk different paths. There is even a chance that my marriage won't survive transition, although Dani and I are working very hard to stay together.

That a relationship ends does not mean that the end is an unhealthy thing. On the contrary, it can be the best thing that happens. If you do part, hopefully it will be an amicable parting and one where your children know that you still love them and it wasn't their fault.

Quote from: Dana_W on November 16, 2008, 11:35:17 AM
Can anyone else out there relate to this situation in some way? I'd like to remain friends with my wife and close to her regardless. I'm just not sure remaining married will be part of that.

I don't see why you cannot do this. It doesn't appear from what you've said that your wife is hostile towards you or your transition.

Communication is your key. You may also want to talk with your therapist about this and perhaps ask for suggestions regarding your children.

I wish you the best!

WR

Hi, Dana. I, too, have apprehensions about staying in my relationship. My issues seem fairly simple on the surface: I identify as a gay boy, and I'm not sure I want to be with a straight man for what might be the rest of my life. I'm not simply preoccupied over the label; there's more to it than that. Once my physical transition is well underway, I'm not sure how my partner will relate to me or how I will relate to him--both sexually and socially. Then I have to cope with his misgivings; he quite emphatically does not want to be perceived as a gay man. I can well understand this; for years and years, I have deeply resented being seeing as a straight woman instead of the gay guy that I felt I was.

Unfortunately, there are many complex issues for me to deal with that I'm afraid will influence me in unhealthy directions--perhaps to stay with my partner when that isn't the best choice. For instance, I still haven't finished grad school (I'm not a student anymore, but I haven't finished my dissertation). I have delayed working on my diss while I cope with my trans issues, and I don't know whether I could work on it if I were adjusting to a single life after almost two decades of being with my partner.

I also don't have a stable job (I teach at the uni where I got my master's, but I'm only hired on a per-term basis and have no job security). When I am working, it's usually not full time these days, and even if it were full time, I wouldn't make half the income that my partner makes. So money is a consideration. I don't want it to be, but it is.

And, as I said, we've been together for nearly two decades. That's a long time. We care about each other, and we are used to each other.

I fully expect to work through all of this junk with my truly phenomenal therapist, but I, too, have not encountered very much press about this phenomenon. Mostly it's the significant other who is under the magnifying glass, with the trans person being the one who hopes and prays that the SO will stay in the relationship. But I don't think it should be surprising that you are having these feelings. Because I'm experiencing something similar, I'm usually kind of surprised that other trans folks don't say anything about feeling the same way. Of course, a lot of the trans people I know were single already, but I'm talking about people who definitely were in relationships when they came out or decided to start transition.

My therapist told me that I should not mention to my partner that I am having ambivalent feelings about him, and I think that he is right--for me, at least. I need to work through the ambivalence in therapy before I ever suggest to my partner that I am having second thoughts about our staying together. This approach might not work for you. But I urge you to talk to your therapist about your feelings if you haven't already.

I hope it helps you some to know that you're not alone.

My wife and I would like to stay together after I transition, and we both, right now, have no problem with being in a "lesbian" relationship. Thankfully, we are both attracted to women.

However, we have already gotten this out in the open: one or both of us might want/need to be with/date/sleep with men down the road.

That might lead to the marriage breaking up, or to a more open definition of it... We simply don't know yet. But we both want to go forward with openness and honesty about what we want.

Does that make any sense?

Ah I understand now. Could've just said that. ::) Well anyways...scratch the first response.

Honestly, I don't believe in "emotional" romance. If there is no intimacy, there is no relationship; it is simply a very good friendship. I somewhat understand how this would work if both people involved were asexual, but otherwise, I don't believe that it could ever work, in the sense that it could be called a relationship. All relationships require a sexual attraction, whether the emotional attraction is there or not.

So I agree with Arch. Talk to a therapist, try and get your feelings sorted out before bringing it up with your wife, and play it by ear. :)

Best of luck.

Wow. Lots of good input and things to ponder. Thanks to all of you.

I guess I feel a bit in between where Windrider and Arch are coming from. I rather like the idea of being able to stay together post-transition. But some of the realities Arch mentions - the way basic desire and attraction seem to be changing between us, and the sense I have that I would like at least the possibility of that kind of intimacy in my life in the future - tend to argue against that.

I have talked about some of this with my therapist, but I know there's more to work through there.

I don't plan to make any sudden changes or big announcements about this any time soon. My transition plan is pretty slow. I hope it gives us time to work through this as well as a number of other issues. But this one is certainly something I've been thinking hard about.

I don't think either of us would be all that keen on the idea of staying married while being free to sleep with other people. I'm sure that works for some, but that just doesn't feel like "us." Besides, it's not just about the sex to me. It's the kind of intimacy that goes along with it. I don't think I'd be able to feel married to someone while developing that kind of intimacy with another person.

Anyway, thanks again all for your thoughts. I'll keep trying to muddle through for now.  :)

I wanted to have my marriage survive transition, but my ex did not want a Lesbian relationship.  So we split up.  But the thing is, now that I am 8 months into HRT, I want a man in my life.  And not just for the emotional aspect, but for the sexual.  All this time when my ex complaint that we were not sexually active, which we weren't,  I could not see it.  We were fine, we had our emotional connection.  But even that die in the end.

But now I see what she was driving at all that time.  Yes I am pre-op and that could be a small problem.  But I think that the person I would be involved with, and I could work that out.  And I want the emotional and intimate sides of a relationship.

I think that we all do sooner or later.

Quote from: Dana_W on November 16, 2008, 10:27:20 PM
I don't think either of us would be all that keen on the idea of staying married while being free to sleep with other people. I'm sure that works for some, but that just doesn't feel like "us." Besides, it's not just about the sex to me. It's the kind of intimacy that goes along with it. I don't think I'd be able to feel married to someone while developing that kind of intimacy with another person.

Welcome to my world.

I've been married 18 years, although it was never really a "husband and wife" thing. We always struggled to evolve some sort of sexual relationship, but it just never worked... and was a *constant* source of resentment the entire time: her hating me for not being the husband I promised I'd be, and me resenting her for pressuring me to be someone I couldn't become.

We're still together post-transition, but we don't quite know where we're going, so we just it take by day. We love one another, and we're way more than "just friends," yet not intimate, so it's... confusing. We're soooo good together in terms of "us against the world." We work wonderfully as best friends, and have a great time doing things together these days. But there's no physical relationship, and we're both straight, soooooo... I have no idea where we're going, except that so far we've decided to go there together for now.

If you knew us, you'd know that the idea of exploring relationships outside of our marriage isn't "us" either... it's totally unfathomable to both of us. And yet... and yet... you hand people impossible to solve problems, and they tend to slowly start looking towards impossible solutions. Things you thought you'd no way, never ever consider start getting put on the table.

FWIW, I took my ring off before SRS and never put it back on. It just didn't feel right, like I was being disrespectful of what it symbolized to keep wearing it. That's not to say we aren't married in a different sense, or that I'm not committed, but I want to build that commitment on a new promise rather than an old lie.

~Kate~

Kate,

You and your wife are lucky to have one another.  I am sure it will work out in the end.  You, your wife and your life are an example that shows all the good that can happen.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcontent.sweetim.com%2Fsim%2Fcpie%2Femoticons%2F000201C1.gif&hash=f7a5ddf3e6a48ebfddc3b3fee6e727cea11182c8)

It appears that transitioning kind of leaves a need to evaluate our situation in the order of the gender binaries, or *transitioning to the preferred gender.* To become oriented to the gender preference once you have arrived at post transition. The need to integrate and allow for new values to reorient ones preference according to the newly acquired gender identity and relationship with a compatible partner.

Well, speaking for myself, to become a deeper and more intimate relationship then any other time before. There  is a trust issue to remember, it took me a very long time to rebuild that trust in another individual. My soul mate which I have come to love more then anyone else in the world since my mom and pops were alive. More then any other partner I have ever been involved with in my previous life. This is only my opinion that I have drawn from my own experiences, and not necessarily reflects anyone one else's feelings on this topic or anyone else's on this forum for that mater.

The reorientation of gender preference for a partner after post-op could go either way for us.
To me it is the soul that lies within that person is what I needed to come to know intimately like that persons soul was inside of me, *both souls merging as one.* The physical sex is only part of that person but the characteristics or the core being that make that person to be feminine in character to male in character which has nothing to do with the physical aspect of the body. This core being is what truly makes that person regardless of the physical sex. Goodness OK now me gonna put my preachers robes away now. ;D

Thus as you see there is still mush to learn and new ideas to adapt to. Feelings and perceptions that are constantly evolving, growing and changing. Post-op is a long ways from being boring or vacuous and you may have heard some say. It can be the most exciting part of your life, it is up to you what you wish to make of it. Stay in one place and stagnate or move along with the changes and enjoy the new challenges and experiences. Now I am talking like a wise old grandmother......hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. well I am an old grandmother. :D   

Cindy

Dana,

You ask the most difficult question about this for many of us who are married to a partner we love, especially for the children involved.  So many of us have lost so much sleep over just this.  There are no easy answers.  There just aren't.  As has been said, most wives don't sign up for a lesbian relationship.  So if they need to leave, I think nobody should feel like they are somehow not honoring our commitment.  After all, we are the ones who changed it, not them.  As you have alluded to, the odds of a marriage staying together through transition are slim.  This does NOT mean it is impossible.  But that is only if both partners want it to be so.  Is that truly where your hearts are?  I am just not sure by reading your post.

I truly wish you the best!




(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Thanks for the extra words of encouragement, advice, and empathy all. I certainly appreciate it. It's comforting to know I'm not crazy... in that there are plenty of other people who are going through this much the same way. It's a different path than those who automatically split up because the spouse can't handle the change at all, and also different from those who just roll with the gender change like it doesn't have a tremendous and fundamental impact to the relationship. It has this very "holy s***, what now?" feel to it. So many things previously assumed true are now in question, even without the questions being spoken. As so many of you have said, it seems to be a day by day thing we'll have to navigate as we go along. Not long ago I couldn't have conceived of voluntarily ending our marriage. Now it seems like something that may be for the best eventually. But then again, maybe we'll discover something new along the way that rekindles our desire to remain together somehow. I really don't know at this point.

On the other hand, I would like to quibble a bit about something Kristi mentioned:

QuoteAfter all, we are the ones who changed it, not them.

Well, yes. Technically. Sort of. I mean I could have continued on as an alcohol abusing depressive withdrawing ever further from my family and the rest of the world. I certainly did change that. And coming to terms with the gender issue played a HUGE role in allowing me to do that. But...

I rather look at this as a shared change. I'm not "imposing" it on her, no matter how it looks to an outsider. I'm finally getting help and honestly dealing with myself in ways to finally be healthy. To the extent this messes up the gender arrangement we went into our marriage with, well that's a mutual discovery and surprise. We both knew I had gender questioning issues before we were married. Neither one of us thought I was headed for gender transition, but both knew it might happen some day.

Could I simply decide not to go through with it so the gender balance of our relationship remained the same? Sure. But could I do it while avoiding a return to depression and possible suicide? I seriously doubt it. And as we're both in agreement we don't want that depressive element to return, that once again feels like a mutual decision.

Incidentally, I know that no court in America nor public opinion would back me on this view. But I'm kind of hoping it's something other transsexuals can understand. It might be one of those "you only get it if you experience it" things, but that doesn't make it any less true.

It all rolls into one and nothing comes for free,
Theres nothing you can hold, for very long.
And when you hear that song come crying like the wind,
It seems like all this life was just a dream.

Look, lots and lots of marriages break up without the gender issues.

And, for the record, I'm not really buying the 'shared change' deal.  Where one is changing a lot, the other a little, its almost like a hostage situation.

Quote from: Dana_W on November 17, 2008, 04:07:46 PM
It has this very "holy s***, what now?" feel to it.

*snort* Well, personally, that was my initial reaction to Dani coming out. I can most definitely say I didn't just "roll with it" and it certainly changes our relationship. However, I decided that not only could I live with the changes, I *like* them...because they're bringing back the person I love.

Quote from: Dana_W on November 17, 2008, 04:07:46 PM
I rather look at this as a shared change. I'm not "imposing" it on her, no matter how it looks to an outsider.

Hrm, I don't know if I would agree here. IMHO, transition is not shared unless the spouse *chooses* to walk the path with you. If your wife does not choose to walk with you through transition, she may feel as if it is being imposed upon her. I don't know if it's possible for the relationship to survive if she doesn't choose to do so, because transition is pretty pervasive. It touches a lot of things about the relationship, not just intimacy and perception. I had to ask myself not only could I stay with Dani, but did I *want* to stay.

Quote from: Dana_W on November 17, 2008, 04:07:46 PM
I'm finally getting help and honestly dealing with myself in ways to finally be healthy. To the extent this messes up the gender arrangement we went into our marriage with, well that's a mutual discovery and surprise. We both knew I had gender questioning issues before we were married. Neither one of us thought I was headed for gender transition, but both knew it might happen some day.

I'm glad you're getting help :) If your wife hasn't yet, I'd suggest that she look into therapy as well. I highly recommend couple's sessions, but I don't know if they'll work for you if you think your marriage won't survive. Still, they could be beneficial, so you may want to ask your therapist about it and see if your wife will go. If your wife doesn't want a couple's session, please urge her to get a therapist for herself, so she has a safe and objective place to voice her feelings too.

You may want to be careful with how much you assume your wife "knows". Dani told me about her gender issues after we had been dating for 6 months. I *chose* to ignore them, mainly because I thought <insert Dani's male name here> was a great person and was beginning to become my best friend. Two and a half years later we were married and Dani raised the issue of transitioning. I prayed to whatever dieties would listen that "it" would all go away. I got my wish...but at a very high price, because the person I loved went with it. Your wife may have "known" about your gender issues but she may also have chosen to ignore those issues or prayed they went away. "Knowing" does not automatically equal "dealing with".

I got lucky. It's been 9 years since that first time and here Dani and I are pursuing transition again, only this time, I'm not letting my love go. This time, I chose differently.

Best wishes!

WR

Quote from: Dana_W on November 17, 2008, 04:07:46 PM
On the other hand, I would like to quibble a bit about something Kristi mentioned:

QuoteAfter all, we are the ones who changed it, not them.

Well, yes. Technically. Sort of. I mean I could have continued on as an alcohol abusing depressive withdrawing ever further from my family and the rest of the world. I certainly did change that. And coming to terms with the gender issue played a HUGE role in allowing me to do that. But...

I totally understand what you are saying.  However, I think that you took what I said to mean that change is bad.  It is not.  Often it is the only healthy way to go.  But we do not change in a vacuum.   Even healthy changes we make in our lives (like the one you have made) greatly affect those around us.  It can be a while before things settle back into a balance.   That's where you are, deciding how the new relationship is going to work, or even if it is going to work.  The only certainty is that you will both be changed by this, probably profoundly.  Don't underestimate the difficulty of the transition your wife will have to make either.  Yes, it is a shared change.  There is no way around that.  But for some spouses, the change they choose is to walk away.

Again, I truly wish you the very best.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Well, if you find yourself more attracted to men (and know without a doubt you can only be sexually and emotionally monogamous) I can understand. However, it's important to remember that you will go through some sexual shifts related to acknowledging how you really feel about your body. Pay attention to whether your feelings are due to that... or uncertainty about how your roles will change (because they likely will. I know mine have with my husband)... or perhaps even some hidden internal homophobia (it's possible! I was misandronistic for a long time and i believe this is part of why it took so long to acknowledge myself).

For two people to love each other so deeply for so long is a lot of work.. don't throw that away without really thinking about it.

Quote from: Kristi on November 17, 2008, 09:54:08 AM
Dana,

You ask the most difficult question about this for many of us who are married to a partner we love, especially for the children involved.  So many of us have lost so much sleep over just this.  There are no easy answers.  There just aren't.  As has been said, most wives don't sign up for a lesbian relationship.  So if they need to leave, I think nobody should feel like they are somehow not honoring our commitment.  After all, we are the ones who changed it, not them.  As you have alluded to, the odds of a marriage staying together through transition are slim.  This does NOT mean it is impossible.  But that is only if both partners want it to be so.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Agreed... and also absolutely the worst singular issue to face.  My marriage and my children are what hold me back at the moment, though I sense a shifting in that.  I would absolutely love to have my marriage survive, but I think more than the internal dynamics against such a thing are the external societal ones.... which is what also holds me in check for the moment.  I know my wife could survive, and my kids will eventually adjust, but I worry over how they will be treated by others.  Which in some respects kind of makes look it as though a separation would in fact be a better option....  Bottom line is, however, ultimately taking ownership for whatever decision one makes...

Dana,

At the Southern Comfort Conference in 2007 I met MTF's that had their spouses leave them because of lack of intimacy and vice versa.  I also met TS's that remained married but gave up intimacy.

One girlfriend gave me this thread and I will post my feelings.  My background is that I am older than you, married longer, my three children are older and I never shared my feelings with my wife.

I failed two times at self administered HRT and never told my wife.  The third time I started getting the mixtures correct because of all the information available on the internet.  Two years into self administration I was convinced by my friends on the internet to tell my wife.  It took two times of telling her separated by an horrendous relationship for 6 months before she understood.

About one year ago after the SCC my wife comprehended what I told her for the second time and we started talking to each other. 

Now if sexual intimacy defines a relationship then my marriage should have ended 15 years ago. 

Why my wife is with me I have not the foggiest idea!  I wanted her to leave so that I could spare her the issues I was having.

Before I told her I would sleep in bed with my street clothes to hide my body and my wife would sleep without her clothes.  After I told her the relationship slowly changed.  I would wear less clothes and she would wear more.  Finally she would go to bed with a jogging suite and I would be my androgynous self.

If I tell the world she says I must leave.  I believe her.  She accepts and is starting to understand my unusual behavior.

My wife set up an appointment for me with a gender therapist and I attended with my girlfriend (TG).  My girlfriend got some names for me for endo's.  My wife set up that appointment too.  I will go to the endo in a couple of weeks.  I have been taking unmonitored HRT for over 3.5 years.  I hope I have not destroyed my liver and kidneys.

A few days ago my wife told me she thought I was a much better person and she faced me in bed for the first time in years.  We snuggled like girls and it was nice.  I have absolutely no desire to act like a male.  She understands this.  She is not a "lesbian" but she really does love me.

About a year ago I told my wife if I had surgery I would like to be with a guy.  She told me that is sick.  Recently I told her the same thing and she said she understands and it would be O.K.

How do I feel about my wife?  I love her more than ever.  I never felt I would find my soulmate.  I think now I have found my soulmate.

Do I need intimacy to keep my marriage?  Well if you mean sexual intercourse the answer is absolutely not.  It would be nice but tenderness is just fine.  Kissing and holding hands and hugging and sleeping each other's arms is really nice.

If I do more I guess I will lose my wife but now I know she loves me.

My plans are now different than they were a year ago.  Instead of running away from the world and living a miserable life by myself I will try and "float".  I will try to slowly do different things and if it makes me a better person I will make those things part of me.  Maybe over time my wife will be with me and I will be closer to being "me".  This is what I have learned from my older girlfriends (TG). 

Dana you do have some control over what you do.  I am not able to function in society if I do nothing to address what is bothering me but I do have some options.

I wish you well.  It is all very complicated.

K

Quote from: Wendy on December 06, 2008, 04:49:18 PM

Why my wife is with me I have not the foggiest idea!  I wanted her to leave so that I could spare her the issues I was having.

K

I have realized that this is an issue that can actually sour a relationship and spoil any chances of prospectively having things work out, like in mine lol....  I think a lot of my troubles I am having is due to my unconsciously "pushing" my wife away to a degree, which is certainly not what I would prefer...  We had "discussions" over the past two days - I say discussions because she told me how she viewed things and honestly, I can't disagree - and it reinforces the notion that, while I'm cruising down the highway at 150, I have to back off and allow her to catch up... Not an easy task.

I have to stop and think about where she is, and honestly, I probably don't give her enough credit.  She does buy the occasional thing for me on her own, we do pick things up when we are shopping for other items, I have my fem garb actually in one of my dresser drawers in the bedroom and it did hit me yesterday that yeah, I have lots of things hanging up in our spare bedroom, my office.  And she hasn't asked me to leave yet, even given she knows I may very well be telling her one day I want a full transition.  So, yes, I guess I have more to be happy about that I've given credit for...  just food for thought for others, be careful with wife interactions, esp if you're trying to stay in the relationship.  I think through our wanting to protect the other we may in fact add to the harm by pushing away.

Quote from: keriB on December 07, 2008, 08:29:14 AM
just food for thought for others, be careful with wife interactions, esp if you're trying to stay in the relationship.  I think through our wanting to protect the other we may in fact add to the harm by pushing away.

I'm starting to think this process is one of the times in our life when interpersonal effectiveness is the most important. We need to think carefully about how to work with those in our life in order to preserve and maintain those relationships, and that can be tough.

Quote from: Emme on December 07, 2008, 12:48:24 PM
When you try to "protect" your spouse, what you're doing is making decisions for them.

I totally agree, and yet how do you sit by and watch a spouse spinning her wheels in anguish, stuck in a rut of dispair and hopelessness, because she's afraid to "be that kind of person" to go after what SHE needs?

I know, rhetorical question, but still.

~Kate~

Quote from: Emme on December 07, 2008, 12:59:42 PM

Quote from: Kate on December 07, 2008, 12:53:25 PM

Quote from: Emme on December 07, 2008, 12:48:24 PM
When you try to "protect" your spouse, what you're doing is making decisions for them.

I totally agree, and yet how do you sit by and watch a spouse spinning her wheels in anguish, stuck in a rut of dispair and hopelessness, because she's afraid to "be that kind of person" to go after what SHE needs?

Nope, it's a great question actually.  My answer to that is communication.  I don't go after what I need.  Why?  Because what Cami needs is more important than what I need, and so I abstain...

Communication is wonderful, and I try to always, always be as honest as possible AND let her know that she can say absolutely anything to me without fear of judgement. Problem is, now that I've gotten what I needed, SHE can't seem to move on; not literally necessarily, but in her head, in realizing that she *deserves* to have her needs met too. She's trapped in an inescapable ethical dilemna where she's can't get what she needs without betraying her ethics, without betraying "us," and resents me for putting her such an impossible, unfair situation.

~Kate~

i am the SO, 8 yrs and counting, of a MtF and i had to tell her so many times to slow down and let me adjust and catch up before she really looses the 3 kids and myself, because it does take us longer to catch up then it does for some of the changes, but she never listened to me until i became a member of this site and posted something about. but now i am trying to get her to understand that i am not wanting a lesbian relationship ad right now she is coming to that understanding and our relationship is more of a sister type one. and i am just happy with that.
"Well, I can sort of feel her pain, if what's bugging her is intimacy.  You've said before she is not a lesbian, and neither am I for what it's worth.  I"m not attracted to her because of her body, or her gender.  My attraction comes from the mutual love and respect we have for each other"
i agree with you here. i love my SO for who she is, even though i enjoy the male part too, but i fall in love with the personality, caring person that makes her and not just the outer parts. 
right now we are taking it one day at a time, and let God guide us to were things should go, but i am looking for a therapist for us to go to so hopeful we can make our marriage work even if it means not having the intimacy but i am sure we could work something out.


have you are your SO thought about therapy? or have you both sat down together and talked about what you both want? maybe you can remain
married but and the sister type relationship.
maybe you can get your wife to get a profile on here and talk with some of us.

I have read a lot of fascinating comments.

Many of our wives are really good people.  Although my actions in hindsight were obviously wrong it was what my mind insisted that I do.  I have pleaded with my wife to talk to other people on this site but she is too busy.  I even setup a userid for her but she never used it.  You only see my side of the story.

Here's who is wrong: Me.

My wife has become a great therapist for me.  Her comments have merit.

But what has happened on our journey together for the past year was something that I never expected.

I have had a reoccurring dream in which I never get married and never find a human to love me.  I wake up from my dream and my wife is sleeping on the other side of the bed.  I have felt for many years she does not love me.

About 5 years ago I checked out of society.  I just drank, overate and did nothing.  My mind focused on solving one solitary issue.  Not even HRT could solve it.  It makes no sense.  I started solving it the best my mind could.

Somehow I talked to the right people and somehow my wife finally understood.  She was clueless for 26 years.

A month after she understood she set up a  night get away for us to celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary.  That was the first time I showed her me.  We had a great time together and it was fantastic.

I have never considered my wife my soulmate.  She was just my best friend.  But now she has grown to my soulmate.

I pretty much have had a sexless marriage after I failed my second attempt at HRT which was about 15 years ago.  I no longer wished to do the male thing with my own wife.

I was no going to tell her that thing does not exist in my mind.  What a tough existence for both my wife and me.

Now we do lots of fun things together again.  I am trying once again to work and be productive.

Now do I consider my wife my "roommate" since we do not have that kind of "sex"?   No she is not my roommate.

She has become my soulmate.  If I do more will she leave?  Yes probably she will leave.

You know what is even more interesting?  In spite of all my shortcomings my wife considers me her "soulmate".

I'm glad my wife has stayed with me.  I love her very much and she loves me too.  I thought I had no choices but in fact I have many choices.

K

Hi Wendy
I believe you are doing great strides forward with your wife hon. Soul mate is a really special place to hold anyone in ones heart.
I have my soul mate.

You are in good company here sweets.

Cindy

I experienced much of what has been discussed here.  We were married for 33 years but although we tried it didn't survive transition.  We discussed this eventuality many many times, and although we tried, the fact of the matter was that She was heterosexual and did not want to be in what many would consider a lesbian relationship.  She needed a man, intimacy etc. but that was no longer the case.  I too am a heterosexual female who needs a man and intimacy, so to stay together for whatever other reason would have been too hard as neither of us could provide the other what they needed.

The love and support for each other was still there and still remains today but there was no happiness, and if you can't be happy what's the point.  It was hard to take at first as I was under the delusion that we could make it work.  I could give her love, and support, but I couldn't give her happiness.

I don't expect folks to understand why I needed to transition and that is why I accept the consequences, for who am I to try and convince someone that everything will be the same as before when I know full well that it won't be.  We are both much happier now; I am who I was supposed to be from the start, living my own life and she has met a man who not only loves her but is able to provide for her needs, make her happy provide her with a family.

Steph

steph, i'm afraid my SO will  want a man once all said and done. i mean right now she says shes a lesbian but in my heart i feel something different then she tells me. if my marriage survives transitioning how do i know it wont end because she wants a man and no longer wants to be with me the one she calls her true love?

i understand why you all want to transition buti dont and i am sure others dont understand is how you can get married and make a promise to be the husband/wife if you are going to break that promise. just like why have kids and be mommy/daddy then go and take that away. with my SO she wants to be called my wife but she not my wife, she not taking my title im proud of,  just like the mommy title she wants the kids to call her mommy but thats my  title when we made kids she became daddy. am i wrong for thinking that?

Quote from: Just Me on December 07, 2008, 05:06:15 PM
I dont understand is how you can get married and make a promise to be the husband/wife if you are going to break that promise. just like why have kids and be mommy/daddy then go and take that away. with my SO she wants to be called my wife but she not my wife, she not taking my title im proud of,  just like the mommy title she wants the kids to call her mommy but thats my  title when we made kids she became daddy. am i wrong for thinking that?

I think some of us think we can handle the stuff.  I was 25 before I ever knew there were TS people in the world.  Just Me it is fine to want your title.  My youngest child is in HS and she will still think of me as daddy if I float over one day.  In the short run my wife will not even address me by my other name even if I ask her.  She will just say, "Whatever you are!"  She remains quite angry at me.

I will say to her if I ask you to call me a different name in private and that makes me feel better why must you call my male name?  She will say, "Because I married a big strong male!"

My wife really dislikes being with a girl.  She always told me that too.  That is not good.

I do not doubt my wife.  She has never given me an ultimatum.  I am pushing the envelop right now on gender.  I might be able to get away with some unisex stuff but not much more.  Males are expected to act a certain way and it is very defined.  It is very unfair to my wife.

I guess Steph is correct.  Some wives will put up with some things (50% can tolerate TG) but few wives will allow a public gender change (5% of marriages survive TS).

At the very end before I told my wife she would sit in the closet crying each night.  I kept telling her she did nothing wrong. I kept telling her it is O.K. if she would date some guys.  Now it makes sense to her.

I really enjoy talking to my wife again.  She is brilliant.

I have no restrictions from the therapist.  I think it would have been easier if she left.  I am not at all stable.  I will pray for the Lord to help me, my wife, my family and other people like me.  It does not make sense to me.

Quote from: Just Me on December 07, 2008, 05:06:15 PM
steph, i'm afraid my SO will  want a man once all said and done. i mean right now she says shes a lesbian but in my heart i feel something different then she tells me. if my marriage survives transitioning how do i know it wont end because she wants a man and no longer wants to be with me the one she calls her true love?

i understand why you all want to transition buti dont and i am sure others dont understand is how you can get married and make a promise to be the husband/wife if you are going to break that promise. just like why have kids and be mommy/daddy then go and take that away. with my SO she wants to be called my wife but she not my wife, she not taking my title im proud of,  just like the mommy title she wants the kids to call her mommy but thats my  title when we made kids she became daddy. am i wrong for thinking that?

Love is an amazing thing. If we attend to it and keep it foremost in our minds as we think about our partners and our decisions, it provides a lot more elasticity for the relationship than thinking in terms of our fears. Setting judgements (of self and others) aside is incredibly freeing.

I wouldn't say you're wrong. I would say this is a growth opportunity. All partnerships, all people, come across growth opportunities of varying types and difficulties. I know it feels this way, but Mickie loves you no less and never intended to break any promise. This is truly beyond our control--it happens in utero. Our brains develop in the one gender, and then (they don't know why yet but) our bodies develop the wrong set of parts. Some of us ignore it and ignore it until we face suicidal depression or even chronic illness because we're not being our authentic selves. Why? Because we don't want our friends, family and loved ones to be disappointed or hurt.

I am a man with the same birth defect Mickie has, in reverse. I am in a life-committed relationship with another man, Tetanus. For awhile *I* had to call us "partners" or "spouses" because I had a difficult time adjusting my mental concept--

"well if he's the husband, then i feel like i'm the wife and i cannot deal with that." After a lot of thought, I am his husband and he is mine--and that is ok, because we have both accepted it.

I also had to negotiate about parenting terms, because being called "mother", "mom" etc triggered my dysphoria and made me feel that i was still being thrown into a social role that had me suicidally depressed. Now our child has 3 fathers... Daddy Tetanus, Daddy Ex*, and I'm Papa, a term our kid decided on of their own volition. Your family can negotiate   that doesn't step on your toes.

Both Mickie and your kids love you and care about your comfort! Negotiating a mom-type nickname for Mickie (all of you as a family) will affirm the family bond and allow the kids to feel secure and empowered in the situation.

*my exhusband, name withheld for privacy

JustMe: I have a couple of questions. Why is is wrong or bad for your children to have *two* Moms? I don't believe children necessarily need a "mom" and a "dad". They just need people who love them.

Or is it something closer to what I call the "better woman syndrome"? That somehow your spouse will be a "better" woman/mom/whatever than you are? It took me a while to recognize this issue in myself. And I honestly felt threatened by Dani's transition until I realized something very important. There is no such thing as a "better" woman. There are only *different* women and we are all different from each other.

Also what is wrong with having a wife? Dani has a wife now in me and when she's done transitioning, I'll have a wife too :) Is it that you don't want to be perceived as lesbian? I can understand that, because that will happen.

Just because your spouse wants to be a wife and mother too doesn't somehow make you less of one.

Just some thoughts.

WR

Quote from: Just Me on December 07, 2008, 05:06:15 PM
steph, i'm afraid my SO will  want a man once all said and done. i mean right now she says shes a lesbian but in my heart i feel something different then she tells me. if my marriage survives transitioning how do i know it wont end because she wants a man and no longer wants to be with me the one she calls her true love?

i understand why you all want to transition buti dont and i am sure others dont understand is how you can get married and make a promise to be the husband/wife if you are going to break that promise. just like why have kids and be mommy/daddy then go and take that away. with my SO she wants to be called my wife but she not my wife, she not taking my title im proud of,  just like the mommy title she wants the kids to call her mommy but thats my  title when we made kids she became daddy. am i wrong for thinking that?

Unfortunately, there are so many unknowns with regard to all of this thing called transition, there aren't any concrete answers.  Although I swear I would never be with a man post a full transition, I honestly cannot commit to that absolutely - who knows what effects hrt will have, and honestly I do wonder about that sometimes, particularly as I think more about SRS...

As for your second point, I don't think you are wrong in your thinking, which is why perhaps I react protectively to my wife.  No, she didn't sign up for this, no she didn't marry a woman, and I would never consider myself to be the "mom' of my children... just me, but I kind of view that as a sacred place to not even go to.  Dad.. yuppers, I will always be that, but I could never be the mom.

Lastly, just because something works for one couple, doesn't necessarily mean it  works for all couples... we should be the last people to impose our thoughts on others lol....  Each couple has to work these issues out for themselves and their own comfort.  I honestly would not care what my wife called me if she stayed with me post-trans, and I have to give you lots of credit,Just, for jumping in here and participating.... that takes courage and I sure hope your So appreciates it!

Quote from: Just Me on December 07, 2008, 05:06:15 PM
steph, i'm afraid my SO will  want a man once all said and done. i mean right now she says shes a lesbian but in my heart i feel something different then she tells me. if my marriage survives transitioning how do i know it wont end because she wants a man and no longer wants to be with me the one she calls her true love?

i understand why you all want to transition buti dont and i am sure others dont understand is how you can get married and make a promise to be the husband/wife if you are going to break that promise. just like why have kids and be mommy/daddy then go and take that away. with my SO she wants to be called my wife but she not my wife, she not taking my title im proud of,  just like the mommy title she wants the kids to call her mommy but thats my  title when we made kids she became daddy. am i wrong for thinking that?

You are not wrong at all.  I firmly believe that those who transition MtF would naturally want to be with a man, after all it's the natural thing to do.  Of course there are exception where MtF prefere to stay in a lesbian relationship or look for a lesbian relationship and why they would even want to do that is another topic.

For myself I will always be my daughters dad, I would never want her to call me Mom.  She already has a mom, the mom who gave birth to her.  Likewise with regards to my ex, I was not, and never will be her wife.  I do hope to be someone's wife one day.  In my own situation I could never pretend to be something that I wasn't, I am not my daughters Mom and I'm not my wife's wife, and I would respectfully suggest that those who insist on being refereed to that way are being deceitful and disingenuous.

Whenever my daughter needs to refer to me she calls me Steph, as did my ex

Steph

Hi KeriB, I have a friend who lives on Long Island, small world huh.

My ex and I separated years ago, well before I ever knew about transsexuals although I did have, for lack of a better word, symptoms, I was also deep into alcohol and denial at the time. In later years when I came back home to reunite with the kids and I began full time they asked me what I would prefer to be called. I told them to continue to call me dad because to them I would always be dad, I only just asked they refer to me just by the name Cindy when outside the house. I even had my son in my custody for two years. One year before I come out full time and the years after. I also had a friend who left her three children in my care for two years wile undergoing drug rehabilitation.  They just simply referred to me by the name Cindy.

I have since remarried another TS and we are both post op and our relationship remains as intimate only. Our Marriage Certificate just states that we are a legally married couple in the province of Ontario in Canada. (Married couple) Partners, Mates, Soul Mates, Life Partners.

Cindy

Somehow I missed this thread until now and have been going over the responses and advice. Particularly from Brittiney as she has chosen to respond and share with us her heart and thoughts. Her perspective as a SO comes few and far between here.

I am still with my wife and going on 24 years of marriage and God bless her for staying with me so far. There is no way to play down the emotions and turmoil this has caused my Marriage. Like Brittiney, my wife has catagorically stated that she is not a lesbian. Nor does she have any desire to become one in the future for that matter. She has said she still needs male companioship which scares the hell out of me. She states she will be my friend but Im not really sure what that means as I from my view am not sure we ever really shared that.

For us the deciding factor in remaining together has been in her eyes financial as we both are near retirement age. Yes we care for each other but I think I am the more needy when it comes to a loving relationship. I still tell her I love her but do not get that in return. She also feels like the Marriage was a lie and I just dont seen to be able get my thoughts around that. I feel I also gave up so much of myself and in trying to be honorable and do the right thing that I almost drove myself to destruction. I honestly did from all appearances, at least looking in, perform as a loving Husband, Father, Grandfather, etc.

I try my hardest to accomidate and communicate with her, I share my thoughts with her and try to adhere to her advice which I do value. So far she has no plans to leave but has taken the spare bedroom as her own and is distancing herself from me. That just plain hurts also. I guess if I did not love her so much it would be much easier. Hugs

Wendy C

Hi

Thanks for this thread. I am going through this at the very moment. Ide been pushing my wife away sub consiously since the birth of our third child. I had hit a real low and was depressed and drinking too much. My wife wanted another child which I didnt and subsequentially our sex life was basically non existant. I came back from overseas work one time and my wife informed me that she had hooked up with an old boyfriend from 18 years ago and was going to have his child. This really hurt me and I pleaded that I would change but really I knew that this is what I was trying to achieve in the first place. My wife did not know about my transgendered issues at this stage.

I was forced from my home and in the following weeks I confided in my wife that I was dressing up and going out as a woman. Claire was absolutely enraged and disgusted at me and tried to use all of what I hold told her in our court case. Fortunately the judge presiding did not have an issue with my "cross dressing" and awarded me visiting rights to the kids so long as I did not present as a woman.

God my life is so complex

After a separation of about two months Claire started coming to the realisation that I was not a bad person and started to accept me so long as she saw no evidence. By this stage I had begun the formal steps for qualifying for HRT. When we got back together this is when we really started to communicate about how I was. Although she didnt like some of what I said to her (because its basically all been a lie who I am) she started to understand more. When I told her about the HRT the proverbial hit the fan.

Since I have told Claire about HRT Ive tried to find as much info on the net for her to read. Claire has come to the psychiatrist and he has explained things to her. Ive been on testosterone blockers now for 2 months and oestrogen for one month and Claire has seen a very positive affect on my mood.

Im happy to say now that although our marriage is not going last and Im making steps to ensure her financial needs Claire has becom very supportive of me and we have in effect found a friendhip that is quite wonderfull. We told the kids the other day who are 7,5,3,1 and they shocked us by saying they already knew. How that happened must have been loose tounges between us and them putiing 2 an2 together(smart little critters)

Ok sorry about the rant but its been the first time Ive really been able to talk like this.

Krissy

Doncha remember when ya was a kid? It's called ears. I could hear through closed door and walls what my mom and dad were talking about like they were standing right in the room. And don't underestimate the comprehension level of a three year old.  ;D

I remember like it was yesterday, then I had 11 children go under my roof at one point or another through the years and I never underestimated their comprehension level even when they played dumb. "Hee, hee, hee."

Cindy

For myself I will always be my daughters dad, I would never want her to call me Mom.  She already has a mom, the mom who gave birth to her.  Likewise with regards to my ex, I was not, and never will be her wife.  I do hope to be someone's wife one day.  In my own situation I could never pretend to be something that I wasn't, I am not my daughters Mom and I'm not my wife's wife, and I would respectfully suggest that those who insist on being refereed to that way are being deceitful and disingenuous.

Whenever my daughter needs to refer to me she calls me Steph, as did my ex




yes, i kinda feel the same way. i will never physically be mommie, and i try not to insist on being her wife. some people assume things, i cannot stop that and refuse(not out of disrepect for her but out of ignorance and intolerance of others)(since we live in the state of Transphobia ohio), i'm not going to stand in the front of a store in front of about 50 people and holler at people i'm not her wife/mother, i'm husband/daddy. here not everyone understands, NOR NEEDS TO KNOW.  as far as i am concerned (and she has said the same thing too) its not everybodys business that i'm tg/ts. i've repeatedly told our daughter it's Aunt Mickie in public, she's tried, its just easier and perceived by people as an easy mistake saying mommie or daddy. our son is almost three, he does well with pronouns for me but then messes everybody else, but i give him credit for trying as i do my wife. i believe some of the people at work who know i'm dad, and have kids of their own mind you, i don't think they would see it as very respectful to address their parent by their first name.

then there's the man thing, my wife is VERY FEMININE IN LOOKS, and body language. but her emotions sometimes resemble that of a man. she takes the best care of me, that i know no man ever could. she can literally pick me up and carry me, and i don't think has worked out a day in her life, and she isn't muscular. she makes me and the kids feel special in ways no man ever could. i find the act of a man holding me very unsettling, i'm sorry but i do. the thought of a man being sexually or intimate with me is extremely unappealling. Brittiney is my one true love, and i intend on staying with her as long as we can stay together, not because of the kids, but because i know truly deep down inside she is the one i love and no one else. if i wanted a man, i'd be with him now, i'm happier with my wife by my side.  ;D

Quote from: Steph on December 07, 2008, 08:25:59 PMI firmly believe that those who transition MtF would naturally want to be with a man, after all it's the natural thing to do. 

This is wrong. This is very, very wrong. You can speak for yourself, but you have no business applying this heterosexist bias to all transsexual women.

Quote from: Hypatia on December 23, 2008, 08:55:16 PM

Quote from: Steph on December 07, 2008, 08:25:59 PMI firmly believe that those who transition MtF would naturally want to be with a man, after all it's the natural thing to do. 

This is wrong. This is very, very wrong. You can speak for yourself, but you have no business applying this heterosexist bias to all transsexual women.

If it happens in nature...it is natural. Majority doesn't dictate "natural." If even only one woman (trans or not) were to be lesbian, than it would be natural. So to say that being with a man is natural, and thus implying that being with a woman is not natural, then you're saying that it is somehow a choice that someone makes to go against their natural tendencies. Well, with that I would disagree. They may be going against your natural tendencies, but they are following their own natural tendencies.

Quote from: Hypatia on December 23, 2008, 08:55:16 PM

Quote from: Steph on December 07, 2008, 08:25:59 PMI firmly believe that those who transition MtF would naturally want to be with a man, after all it's the natural thing to do. 

This is wrong. This is very, very wrong. You can speak for yourself, but you have no business applying this heterosexist bias to all transsexual women.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Hypatia.  I loved the company of a woman before surgery and I love the company of a woman now that I am post-op.  I married one in Ontario in 2004.  I want nothing to do with a male of the species, be he a man or a jerk.

Wing Walker
Staying on Course

Quote from: SarahR on December 23, 2008, 09:15:36 PM

Quote from: Hypatia on December 23, 2008, 08:55:16 PM

Quote from: Steph on December 07, 2008, 08:25:59 PMI firmly believe that those who transition MtF would naturally want to be with a man, after all it's the natural thing to do. 

This is wrong. This is very, very wrong. You can speak for yourself, but you have no business applying this heterosexist bias to all transsexual women.

If it happens in nature...it is natural. Majority doesn't dictate "natural." If even only one woman (trans or not) were to be lesbian, than it would be natural. So to say that being with a man is natural, and thus implying that being with a woman is not natural, then you're saying that it is somehow a choice that someone makes to go against their natural tendencies. Well, with that I would disagree. They may be going against your natural tendencies, but they are following their own natural tendencies.

Sounds fine to me, Sarah.  BTW, why are you having FFS?  You look fine to me.

Wing Walker

Quote from: Wing Walker on December 24, 2008, 12:57:04 AM

Quote from: SarahR on December 23, 2008, 09:15:36 PM

Quote from: Hypatia on December 23, 2008, 08:55:16 PM

Quote from: Steph on December 07, 2008, 08:25:59 PMI firmly believe that those who transition MtF would naturally want to be with a man, after all it's the natural thing to do. 

This is wrong. This is very, very wrong. You can speak for yourself, but you have no business applying this heterosexist bias to all transsexual women.

If it happens in nature...it is natural. Majority doesn't dictate "natural." If even only one woman (trans or not) were to be lesbian, than it would be natural. So to say that being with a man is natural, and thus implying that being with a woman is not natural, then you're saying that it is somehow a choice that someone makes to go against their natural tendencies. Well, with that I would disagree. They may be going against your natural tendencies, but they are following their own natural tendencies.

Sounds fine to me, Sarah.  BTW, why are you having FFS?  You look fine to me.

Wing Walker

Thank you Wing Walker. I appreciate the kind words. But sometimes pictures can be deceiving ;) I use my hair to hide the upper part of my face and forehead, which are not very flattering depending on the angle, at least to me anyways.

Hi SarahR I will send prayers that all goes well and for your speedy recovery. I will send my little friend here to watch over you.  ;D

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2Favatar3.jpg&hash=11948d7813fe860953d31dd39486726fdceb53c9)

Cindy

Quote from: cindybc on December 24, 2008, 02:21:02 AM
Hi SarahR I will send prayers that all goes well and for your speedy recovery. I will send my little friend here to watch over you.  ;D

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2Favatar3.jpg&hash=11948d7813fe860953d31dd39486726fdceb53c9)

Cindy

Awwwee...thank you Cindy  :icon_hug:

While my background is different than that of most of you here, I can relate somewhat to the relationship crisis that many transitioning  MtF's find themselves facing at one point or another.

Even if a heterosexual female wife knows about some of the feminine feelings that her guy may possess when going into the marriage, she often feels, that it is a phase that he'll most likely loose after he is married a while. Even if she agrees to help him dress up, or role play, she has enough love in her heart for him, that she'll go the extra miles to work it out, and save the marriage. If there are children, she will do just about anything to keep him in the marriage...for a while. Make no mistake though, she'll be feeling insecurities about the whole affair.

If he continues to push his need to be a female, and has to go through the complete process of attaining HRT, she begins to have deep disturbing doubts.   Even if she professes otherwise! There is still a spark of hope, that it will not last and he'll snap out of it.

Finally she begins to question her own identity, femininity, desirability, womanhood, and ability to attract and judge men. She her self begins to have her own identity crisis. This is when many will revolt, and threaten the husband that she'll leave him, if he goes through with it. They will argue, cry, and be shaken to their very cores about what is happening to them, as a couple, a family.

She'll be thinking about what it will do to her career, family bonds, peer associations, and other social standings, once it is out that her husband is becoming a woman. The wife often times feels she cannot face the questions, the smirks, the jokes, and general disapproval of the position she has found herself in.   Once she'll come to the conclusion, that there is no turning back the clock, and preventing him from carrying this dream of his through...devastation will fill her heart and mind as she is ready to deliver the final coup-de-grace. Divorce!

She has decided it is time to end it...and may or may not offer an olive branch of ongoing cordial friendship to him as they split up.
If there are kids involved, as likely as not, the court will decide what visitation and contact rights he'll hold.  If he shows up at court enfemme, he'll probably loose out big time.  For the folks whose type of marriage like this ends in divorce, they'll have a difficult time remaining amiable...especially if she remarries and her new husband hates you...

The reality of being a TS MtF and married, is usually never very kind in the end.  There's always exceptions to the general rule, and for them that can go on together in some newly formed relationship, that is wonderful, if that is what each wants...

IMO, I find it rather amazing that married transitioning men, would find it so surprising that there wouldn't be problems..


Addendum; SarahR...best wishes and a speedy recovery, for we are all pulling for you. Keep that in your heart. God speed.