Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Okay: as a result of my first reply to https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,50597.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,50597.0.html), Emme had suggested a Frustrations of Manhood thread. So, here's my take on the whole "manhood" thing.

I hope that this thread doesn't come across as a retalliation to Emme's thread, because it is not. I'm an androgyne, and the role of Manhood as I percieve its existence doesn't fit me.

1. Men are crass and inconsiderate; it's just their nature. I can certainly say that I have indeed met some men who fit this description; my father is a prime example. But, I would not say that this is a trait of maleness. Yet, I feel assailed by these very assertions. Women who have been unfortuate enough to have been on the receiving end of such inconsiderations and crassness will sometime assert that these things are just typical male behavior. Most men I know are not like this, however. I understand that it could be that I have been fortunate enough to have not encountered much in the way of these things. I just wish that men in general would not be labelled as crass and inconsiderate just because some (or possibly even most) men are. I also understand that there are those men who believe that it is acceptable and even encouraged to act in this way.

2. Successful men have their genitals to thank. I can't tell you the number of times I've been told that I owe my current job and salary to the fact that I am a man. Right. The work I've done over the last 17 years of course would not have anything to do with it. If I have all kinds of socio-economic power just because I'm a man, how come my family has to scrape to get by? I have worked to get where I am and without working harder, I cannot just be automatically uplifted due to my gonads.

3. A man's job is to provide for his family. I've been told by both men and women that I should not allow my wife to ever make more money than me. Why? My career goal is to be a house husband. This is seen as a lack of ambition. Yet any house wife will be able to tell anyone that "staying home" is not the same thing as "not working." There is more than enough work for me to do at home. I'd rather do that than go to work. But my wife is an ordained minister, and she makes less than half what I do. As being a televangelist isn't her style, it's highly unlikely that I'll be a house husband any time soon.

4. Men are strong, and crying is a sign of weakness. This is another myth that I've heard from both men and women. Such a display shows vulnerability. Yet, doesn't one have to be strong to admit publicly that one is vulnerable?

5. Men only crave sex; emotional attachment is not desired by them. Another myth. My father once told me that men don't need to be told they're loved; women need that. I have to dismiss that statement out of hand as some of the more grotesque nonsense I'd ever heard.

Just gonna slip in for a sec, Shades.

What a really good idea and what a great post to begin the topic.

Nichole

Woah, I can add to this XD

6: All men are competitive by nature. It seem that at most everything I do, if there is someone who can come out on top everyone wonders why I don't get into it. Its not that I'm not ambitious or don't want to do a good job, its that I don't see in competing over silly things. I'm pleased with doing a good job, and that should be enough.

and i guess this ties into

7: All men like sports. Couldn't be further from the truth. It completely ignores every academic and intellectual in the world who would put matters of the mind over matters in a stadium.

as well as this

8: Men are brutish and aggressive. Need I really say more? If all men were as neanderthalic as some would have you believe our world would have never progressed. Sadly I think things like the UFC only go to further this notion =/

Regarding wage disparity, most of it lies in the upper end.  What averages as a 23-33% disparity is in fact more like 10% for middle incomes, at least on an hourly basis.  The problem is that while women have moreso (although not entirely) been placed on an even playing field, they haven't been permitted to rise to the highest ranks (perhaps because of women not having sufficient time to filter through, but likely because cronyism and a lack of oversight are more notorious at this level).  Analogous consequences hold for "minorities."

Cronyism is worth a special mention, because it's very subtle (people may tend to trust people they can relate to, even if they are less skilled).  The (white Christian) men in power are less likely to relate with women/minorities because of their differing socialization.  However, it seems that (white Christian) men with different attitudes and expression would likely struggle in a comparable way as women/minorities to connect with those in power.

Regarding (white) male bashing, it's sort of "trendy" because of their collective reward/work ratio (presently and historically).  Still, women (and to a lesser extent other minorities) get beat on, too.  However, if you are a person who refrains from such attacks, it can be frustrating to repeatedly to hear about how bad your group is, especially when your own expression is the antithesis to the stereotypes.  When the generalizations are cliche, are from weak/nonexistent data, or are delivered in a hostile or one-sided way, it gets worse.

Ripping an individual is more reasonable since it allows a person to target particular characteristics of the person being spoken for.  When you start making generalizations for a group that is bound by something not of their choosing (such as gender or ethnicity), there is not really so much you can speak to without being well off the mark for many individuals, and one should be mindful of the consequences.  It's not about being "politically correct;" it's about not being an a-hole.

Alas, I'm probably preaching to the choir.

I'll list particular examples (in the spirit of the thread) when I have a little more time.

If any off these things were true than it woud be proof that I'm not realy a man I know, I'm not a man when people say things like this it just proves my point and these are reasons why I hate being around groups of just men

I once went to a men's spirituality retreat at a local retreat center. While the experience as a whole was positive, I felt out of place in the group of just men. And NONE of them were exhibiting the stereotypical male badness. On the contrary: they were all very polite and easy to get along with.

But, I just really felt out of place in this group of men.

Heh, society would argue that any man willing to go to a "spirituality retreat" is not really a man anyways XD

Men don't need spirtuality! Men need sex and booze and violence! YEAH MANHOOD!

::)  ;D

Quote from: 6thsomatic on December 03, 2008, 05:00:04 PM
Heh, society would argue that any man willing to go to a "spirituality retreat" is not really a man anyways XD

Men don't need spirtuality! Men need sex and booze and violence! YEAH MANHOOD!

::)  ;D

Well, I can agree with two of those three, unless Halo, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, and Quake II count as violence.

I dont think so, others would disagree.

However, from those titles it sounds to me like you need to upgrade XD

Another thing that bugs me is that sexism towards males is perfectly acceptable. For instance, someone can post on an Internet message board that the "plural of man is boys" and no one bats an eye.

However, I feel that if I were to ask in the spirit of equality if that meant that the plural woman was girls, my comments would not be well received.

Is girl such a bad term though? I might just be me, but I think I'd rather be called a girl than a woman.

Quote from: Aelita_Lynn on December 04, 2008, 10:28:55 AM
Is girl such a bad term though? I might just be me, but I think I'd rather be called a girl than a woman.

The answer to that question depends on whom you ask. There are those who will say to call a woman a girl is extremely offensive, as it is diminutive and does not connote the respect due to an adult. Likewise with calling a man a boy.

I'm approaching this a little from the perspective of the frustrations I feel because they see me as a man. I'm not sure a man would see all of these as an issue.

Crappy range of clothing and it is accepted that men don't care
Assuming that you are gay because you don't dress manly enough
People assume you drink beer
People talk over your head to your partner about how your house is decorated, and about cooking for the family. Then when you tell them that you do all the cooking they sort of give you that 'does not compute' look.
People assume that your partner does most of the parenting
Taking your little kids shopping, to the pool or to school people look around for your kids mum, or react as if you are a potential pedophile.

Quote from: Nicky on December 04, 2008, 01:48:36 PM
I'm approaching this a little from the perspective of the frustrations I feel because they see me as a man. I'm not sure a man would see all of these as an issue.

Crappy range of clothing and it is accepted that men don't care
Assuming that you are gay because you don't dress manly enough
People assume you drink beer
People talk over your head to your partner about how your house is decorated, and about cooking for the family. Then when you tell them that you do all the cooking they sort of give you that 'does not compute' look.
People assume that your partner does most of the parenting
Taking your little kids shopping, to the pool or to school people look around for your kids mum, or react as if you are a potential pedophile.

Oh, yes, these definitely ring true.

While waiting to pick my daughter up at a bowling alley where she was attending a birthday party, a "concerned citizen" actually asked me if I was a pedophile. She also asked me to not be offended by the question.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on December 04, 2008, 02:45:05 PMWhile waiting to pick my daughter up at a bowling alley where she was attending a birthday party, a "concerned citizen" actually asked me if I was a pedophile. She also asked me to not be offended by the question.

WHAT?!?

How in the hell could someone not be offended by that?

"Well yes I am thanks for asking, do you have any young chilldren? I have candy"


I hate the feeling of people creating a space for me in the 'man club'. It makes me feel so uncomfortable.
I think I struggle with the feeling that you are constantly having to avoid physical conflict with other men. Like you can't look a guy in the eye for long on the street or it is considered a challenge. There are all these rules and behaviours to avoid conflicts in male society and I just want to say "hey, you don't need them with me, I'm not in direct competition with anyone". I hate how I find myself just doing and responding to these behaviours anyway.

Quote from: Nicky on December 04, 2008, 07:46:13 PM
"Well yes I am thanks for asking, do you have any young chilldren? I have candy"


I hate the feeling of people creating a space for me in the 'man club'. It makes me feel so uncomfortable.
I think I struggle with the feeling that you are constantly having to avoid physical conflict with other men. Like you can't look a guy in the eye for long on the street or it is considered a challenge. There are all these rules and behaviours to avoid conflicts in male society and I just want to say "hey, you don't need them with me, I'm not in direct competition with anyone". I hate how I find myself just doing and responding to these behaviours anyway.

ah yes, the man club with its testosterone and one upmanship.

Just today I was in a meeting at work and once again I realized that my mixed male/female outlook just does not work in a "mans world". I had to shut up before I said something that I would really regret.

I frequently work shows where the band is way popular with junior high girls, which is a good thing.  Those girls by all the CDs, the posters, the shirts and all the rest, and its kind of a foundation of rock and roll and all that.  But we are on the lookout for that older guy who is there by themselves.  Just looks out of place, one thirty some/forty something guy (and not a hip poser, or journalist, or rock pond scum or something - they are easy to spot) hanging out in a room that has some 1-2,500 young girls in it.  So we watch them.  One of us will walk up to them - and me, I just don't look like I work there, I look like I live there - and ask them about being on "Dad Duty" that night taking the snowflakes to the big rock concert and all.  You can figure it out pretty quick.  I'm sure most parents are happy we do take the time and effort to notice that.

As for the 'boys' and 'girls' deal, depends on the context and who is saying it.  I know a lot of older women who refer to 'going out with the girls' and don't think its insulting.  And 'let's go boys' is pretty common where I work (even when some of the boys are, in fact, girls).

If the person at the bowling alley had asked me about being on "dad duty," I would not have been upset. But, she actually asked me if I was a "pedophile." That's the word she used.

A lack of tact to be sure * and what's that you were sayin' 'bout men being crass and inconsiderate??? *  but then again, she no doubt was not trained for that kind of tact either.  I mean we're only sort of checking the guy out, and making sure that he knows that we know that he is there.

Quote from: tekla on December 05, 2008, 09:31:11 AM
A lack of tact to be sure * and what's that you were sayin' 'bout men being crass and inconsiderate??? *  but then again, she no doubt was not trained for that kind of tact either.  I mean we're only sort of checking the guy out, and making sure that he knows that we know that he is there.

What I had said, and maybe I wasn't very clear, was that it's a stereotype that men are crass and inconsiderate. I reject that stereotype out of hand as being false and sexist. I've been alive too long to believe it.

I have to work with rich (and I mean really, really rich) women a few times a year I know that no bunch of guys have 'inconsiderate' on any of them.

I think a lot of people, both men and women, are becoming more crass and inconsiderate =/

Probably my opinion is kind of skewed by the fact that I never felt like one, but from my jaunt in the world of clashing beers and wiry beards I do remember some unpleasant things. Mostly mentioned already, so I won't reiterate.
I guess it's the flipside of being assumed an airheaded idiot who's judged only on how good she looks, in the case of women.

Quote from: tekla on December 05, 2008, 09:31:11 AM
A lack of tact to be sure * and what's that you were sayin' 'bout men being crass and inconsiderate??? *  but then again, she no doubt was not trained for that kind of tact either.  I mean we're only sort of checking the guy out, and making sure that he knows that we know that he is there.

I can understand a parent wanting to be sure there aren't any ne'er-do-wells near kids, theirs or otherwise. But, what kind of training does a person need to be polite?

Well, it would seem, a lot more than most are getting, I'll vouch for that - though tact has never been a strong suit of mine to tell 'ya the truth. 

But 'ch know what?  I blame TV for making people so damn scared and paranoid that they see threats everywhere they look in the world, and its not the right threat at that.

It's all that StrangerDanger nonsense - in fact, if a child is molested, its gonna happen at home, by a member of his or her family.  That's what the stats say.

Quote from: tekla on December 05, 2008, 10:31:37 AM
Well, it would seem, a lot more than most are getting, I'll vouch for that - though tact has never been a strong suit of mine to tell 'ya the truth. 

But 'ch know what?  I blame TV for making people so damn scared and paranoid that they see threats everywhere they look in the world, and its not the right threat at that.

It's all that StrangerDanger nonsense - in fact, if a child is molested, its gonna happen at home, by a member of his or her family.  That's what the stats say.

True on all counts.

2. Hello! This is one reason why I'm struggling so much. Doctors say that a penis transplant is impossible, because there aren't "sufficient vein/arteries" in the female body. Bull->-bleeped-<-. I can prove otherwise. They won't give me a dick for political reasons.

By political, if you mean some sort of consensus on the part of the people that giving guys vaginas is OK, but somehow we ought not give girls dicks, I think you are wrong.  At the level that political decisions are made, no one cares about this at all.  Matter of fact, the federal and state governments have been pretty damn cooperative and non interfering in SRS and the like, (Though not all at the same speed, of course).  But, if you mean economic reasons, which in the USA are not much different from political reasons, then OK.

Great thread Shades!

Since I was a child, I've not conformed to male stereotypes, and except for high school where I was harassed for not doing so, rarely seem to encounter men who do conform to them.

Once upon a time before I realized that I was trans/androgyne, I read a book, Refusing to Be A Man: Essays on Sex and Justice by John Stoltenberg, which resonated deeply with me. I've always disliked the notion that "boys will be boys" somehow excuses men from offensive behaviors. As others have said, both men and women are capable of stupidity. Our society punishes one gender for the same thing that the other is applauded. I'm tired of the double standard. It is a prison for anyone regardless of gender.

Z

Quote from: Nicky on December 04, 2008, 01:48:36 PM
I'm approaching this a little from the perspective of the frustrations I feel because they see me as a man. I'm not sure a man would see all of these as an issue.

Crappy range of clothing and it is accepted that men don't care
Assuming that you are gay because you don't dress manly enough
People assume you drink beer
People talk over your head to your partner about how your house is decorated, and about cooking for the family. Then when you tell them that you do all the cooking they sort of give you that 'does not compute' look.
People assume that your partner does most of the parenting
Taking your little kids shopping, to the pool or to school people look around for your kids mum, or react as if you are a potential pedophile.

Nicky Im with you on this one. I look around my house and try to find thing's that have man attached to it and i can't find but a few thing's here and there. I just can not understand why it is ok for a women to call a man a freak for wearing skirt's and such. Do you hear men calling women freak's where they wear something from the men's section? That to and why is it that if a man is out by himself and he see's a little one that look's like they are lost or hurt and try's to hurt the first thing people think is that he's a freak or a pedehpile? I mean me I work as an EMT so it is in my training and nature to stop and help someone that look's like they need it. Me in my house I get stuck with most of the parenting stuff, but when the school calls about my kid's they call for my wife and not me. So for someone to say cause your a man you have all the card's in your favor they need to take a look again. It' use to be like that back in the day. Now it's the other way around. Just my .5 cent.

I've definitely had a lot of the thoughts posted here.  But then, I guess manhood is always frustrating for those who don't really feel like men or want to be men.  I wish I could be accepted as something other than a man, though I don't really feel like a woman, just more feminine than masculine.

I feel silly thinking about clothes at all, but I see women every day who are wearing things that make me think, "That's so {fun, beautiful, colorful, sexy, etc.}.  I wish I could wear that!"  I hate the pressure that men are under to act "normal," and the extremely narrow range of options this entails.  I guess appearance is a little bit important because it's an opportunity for expression.  You can tell people something about you before they even talk to you.  But men are restrained by social convention from saying too much.  I wish I could express myself publicly in a way that wouldn't be misunderstood.

I don't think it's so silly to worry about clothing, really.

In some places, clothing choices can lead to mockery and verbal abuse. Not all that terrible, but certainly no fun either. And, such things can really wear a person down after a while.

But in other places, clothing choices can lead to physical violence. It's hard (I think) to be able to tell if the place one is in at any given time harbors the latter or former risks.

One of the thing's that get me bent out of shape about being a man is all the bashing that happen's from women! I mean how many time's have you heard a women say they don't need a man cause all  men a worthless? I just get's under my skin so much that there a men out there that treat the opp. sex like nothing but a peace of meat! So what happen's you get a guy like me that might be a little different from most men and would actually treat a women with respect and dignity like I would like to get from her and she thinks I'm a perv or something cause I wear heel's or a skirt and might act a little softer than most men, or she may be cool with it and park me in the friend zone. I just don't get it! Like I told my partner I said "Jusr cause I may wear a skirt from time to time does not make me gay!" I said "that make's me open minded and willing to try new thing's!" The other thing that get's under my skin is the fact that a women can go into her employer and wear anything they want and nothing would ever be said! Take wear I work for example! I work as an EMT (Emergancy Medical Technician) the women are aloud to wear one set of ear ring's in each ear, wear make up of course, and paint there nail's and such! A guy on the other hand can't even think about it! I mean my feeling is that if a women can wear ear ring's and makeup up and nail polish why couldn't a man? I mean after all we all do the same job! Hell a guy wear I work can't even have longer than what would be considered normal. Ya could I take it to court and fight about it? Sure but then I wouldn't have a job! So I suck it up and don't agree with it. I would love to see the day wear a man could walk into a job wearing a skirt and heel's if he want's and not have to worry about hearing "Go change or you don't have a job anymore!" I mean come on if you told that to a women all hell would break loose! These are just a few of the double standard's that just drive me up the wall! Sorry for the rant!

Speaking from the other side of the line:

I'm woman-bodied and I've always felt that men are more boxed in by society than women. And yes, more the butt of jokes and offensive comments that they're not supposed to be offended by.

I've found that women can be much more cruel and mean-spirited.

-- Luke, who likes to hang with the guys

Quote from: thescrappycoco on October 29, 2009, 10:43:13 AM
One of the thing's that get me bent out of shape about being a man is all the bashing that happen's from women! I mean how many time's have you heard a women say they don't need a man cause all  men a worthless? I just get's under my skin so much that there a men out there that treat the opp. sex like nothing but a peace of meat! So what happen's you get a guy like me that might be a little different from most men and would actually treat a women with respect and dignity like I would like to get from her and she thinks I'm a perv or something cause I wear heel's or a skirt and might act a little softer than most men, or she may be cool with it and park me in the friend zone. I just don't get it! Like I told my partner I said "Jusr cause I may wear a skirt from time to time does not make me gay!" I said "that make's me open minded and willing to try new thing's!" The other thing that get's under my skin is the fact that a women can go into her employer and wear anything they want and nothing would ever be said! Take wear I work for example! I work as an EMT (Emergancy Medical Technician) the women are aloud to wear one set of ear ring's in each ear, wear make up of course, and paint there nail's and such! A guy on the other hand can't even think about it! I mean my feeling is that if a women can wear ear ring's and makeup up and nail polish why couldn't a man? I mean after all we all do the same job! Hell a guy wear I work can't even have longer than what would be considered normal. Ya could I take it to court and fight about it? Sure but then I wouldn't have a job! So I suck it up and don't agree with it. I would love to see the day wear a man could walk into a job wearing a skirt and heel's if he want's and not have to worry about hearing "Go change or you don't have a job anymore!" I mean come on if you told that to a women all hell would break loose! These are just a few of the double standard's that just drive me up the wall! Sorry for the rant!

I hear you on all of this. Not all women are automatically male bashers. And some appreciate a nice guy.

You need to find someone that appreciates you for who you are. I'm not even going to comment on the current dating scene, and all that entails. Bleach. You will most likely not find what you are looking for there.

So, with that said - where might you meet someone that will appreciate you?

My idea is volunteer work. This attracts people with a kind heart, to a common/shared cause. ASPCA, etc.

I'd guess that your prime area to find someone compatible with you would be in this area.

I wish you the best of luck.

most of the "all men are scum" type of comments I've heard have come from females who have just brocken up with their boyfriend as a way of releasing anger/hurt toward anyone like that being bio male and sitting through girls venting like this was never easy but I tried not to take it personaly but it always made me feel fragile and If anything hurtfull was said that was focused at me specificaly then I'd need a good cry otherwise I'd assume I wasn't included in the whole "All men" rant after all nothing being decribed applied to me. 

Interesting thread.  Where I work the pay rates are based on years of service, not gender, so there is no discrimination that way.
On the other hand the staff are 80% female, and if someone can't find something, they will be accused of having a "boy's look".  If I say something about that, they just don't get it.

"Society allows us to make choices regarding working. Women can choose to work full time, work part time and have a family, or not work and have a family. Men have choices too. They can work full time, work full time or work full time."

By the way riven , nice legs!!

Ah, yes.. Sexism towards men..

Well; it happens a lot. It does, that! But.. It's supposed to be okay, since society still has this image of 'the man in charge,' and it's okay to be rude about the person in charge.
The problem is: 'The man in charge' is outdated in most countries. Most countries have pay-checks based on years of employment and status, not on gender.

And.. Oh, I'd love to rant and rant and rant... But other people have already said everything I could rant about.. So..

Meh; I think what ticks me off most is that feeling of 'All men... Hey, wait a minute! I don't want to be in there! I shouldn't be in there! That's not me! Gemme out!'

Interesting series of posts. I have spent a good portion of my life studying "sterotyped gender role socialization" and trying to help men especially but also women live outside of the stereotypes. And I agree there are many common and accepted "male" behaviors that are obnoxious - but not universal. Not all men are the same. Sometimes it is annoying - 17 years ago when my son was an infant, there were not many diaper changing tables in mens' rooms, nor were there many "family" restrooms. Now I see them all over. When I took my son to "Mommy and Me" there was no "Daddy and Me," but they changed the name because of me. One mother of a friend freaked out that I was holding my infant son.

More seriously, we do no one a favor by excusing not ok behavior because of gender. Nor is it so incredibly extraordinary that a man can parent. Nor is it fair or useful to tar all men with the same broad and negative brush - as people often do.

Why am I posting? In part because after all thie time I spent trying to change men, I had to admit as did some one else earlier, that even in a group of polite, sensible, compassionate men, I do not feel I belong. So I am left with some uncertainty. Have I been trying to help people change the wrong things? I doubt I've done harm, I do not use coercion or trickery. But I am coming to realize I am not like most other "genetic men." I am most comfortable with the gender rebels of all stripes.

The older I get, the more questions and the fewer answers I have.