Susan's Place Transgender Resources

In the Self Protection thread (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,513.0.html) we got off topic discussing the merits of the terms WBW and GG so the topic was split so we could continue both conversations clearly.

In that original thread Stephanie Craxford posed a question that started it all... well, this thread anyway (=

Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on July 08, 2005, 06:57:17 AM...
By the way Terri_Gene, what does "WBW" stand for  ???
...

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An since this forum is being a pill trying to be smart (and failing) the next reply (my own) is inline. *grumble*

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Quote from: 4yearsWBW = "Women Born Women", or something to that effect I presume.
I have been using GG or Genetic Girl for the same meaning but WBW has considerably more tact and is more accurate, I feel.

[edit]Split, Merge, Split, Merge, Split, Merge, Split, Merge, throw up hands in dismay, Split, Merge, Frown, EDIT.[/edit]

Ah ha,

Another acronym for the list.  I used GG myself  :)

Chat later
Steph

WBW Steph?  Yes, 4years is right, Women Born Women, but it's a term along with a few others that we probably shouldn't use in a public sense, though I for one have gotten used to it and more automatically use it.  It seperates getnetics from WBM who were born Men.  Not really any different in a sense from GG, but it takes on deeper meanings and implies that if not born a woman, you never will be.  Even Posties can run into it, and if your Pre, it can be in some ways worse then out in the street playing with a crowd from the right.  Not nice when you have to fight on the inside as well as on the outside for a little space.  Hopefully the arguments occuring about this in relation to Womyns festivals and in Lesbian culture will clear a little space in the sun.

All I know is that when mainstream society won't claim you and there exists womens groups who won't claim  you, whats left in terms of a free and happy life?

Terri

Thats a valid point Terri-Gene it makes sence. I think I'll start using that myself.  I agree that WBW would argue with us as being women, and by using the term GG, we imply that they are "real" women and we are not.

Chat later,
Steph

I see it as a way to denote origins, not what is current.

[edit]Correction, we are no longer off thread (=[/edit]

Obnoxious?  I heard a woman? explaing one time that GG stood for generic girl as if being whatever alphabet letters she identified as, was special.

I like the term natal woman.  Maybe I could be considered a post natal woman?

What do you think when the term GM is used? Gay male or genetic male?

i have a hard time visualizing anyone being born a woman (ouchie for the mother :icon_no: ), female maybe but not a woman. but even that does not work as i was born female and i am female now. females born with the correct genitals and reproductive system is about right.

so it's FBWTCGRS i guess....... ;D






beth

uhhhhhhh, i'd never remember that.  Is just one of the minor reasons it would be easier, if it was just "women" period.

Terri

that's a great idea Terri!!! :)   :)









beth

 "that's a great idea"

Perhaps, but the truth is there has to be some differentiation, there is just a slight difference in a female and a pre-op.  They take care of that easily enough with "Female Identified".  gets away from the woman issue, but still points out a difference.  there's reasons for it, and I even totally agree with some of em, but it still don't digest well, you haul the load over the mountain so you can be included as Female Identified?

And it's all based on idealologies, which are about as easy to argue with as relidgeous ideas. but what the heck, it'll evolve ..... in time.

Terri

Let's

Quote from: Terri-Gene on July 09, 2005, 02:29:21 AM
And it's all based on idealologies, which are about as easy to argue with as relidgeous ideas. but what the heck, it'll evolve ..... in time.

All I can add to that is "Let's hope so"  While there are parts of me that still need to be corrected, I still consider myself a woman, after all it's what I think and feel that really counts. :)


^{(too bad I need proof of srs to get that male marker changed - but don't tell anyone)}  :(

 " still consider myself a woman, after all it's what I think and feel that really counts"

Correct to the extent that it goes, it's just agrivating that the str8 world of women can be so much easier to blend with then those who I find much more interesting, as people and as friends, but then I spend to much time in str8 surroundings, work and related activities and all that.

Terri

Ahhh, would it be appropriate for me to say something like, "If she looks like a woman, acts like a woman and feels like a woman, then she IS by-the-Goddess a woman."?  Well, that's the way I feel about it, but I'm weird.

wajdi

Ha, ha  not weird, just honest, and down to earth.

Steph

 "If she looks like a woman, acts like a woman and feels like a woman, then she IS by-the-Goddess a woman.?"

Actually Wajdi, there is a couple or few more things involved then appearance and behavior, but all things else being equal, then likely, yes.  It's a seperatist subject though.

Terri

Technically probably the most correct term would be natal female, or NF as opposed to natal male of NM. (of course, internet slang kills the NM version..)

But again I see these terms as nothing more than a easy way to identify someone's physical sexual characteristics at birth. Not what they identify as, not what they behave like and not what they are accepted as.


But by and large I think it is just splitting hairs. As long as we can understand we are talking about, close enough! ;)

 "I see these terms as nothing more than a easy way to identify someone's physical sexual characteristics at birth."

Actually that is the root of the argument in seperatist circles 4years.  The theory is, if you were born male, then you inherited male privialage and that privialage forever changed you, making you different from naturally born females who were raised without that privialage.

I happen to agree with that part of the argument. but not the place or the time.

Terri

I agree with life experiences shaping us, and in that vein I am not the same, nor will I be, as if I were born a physical girl. But neither would I be the same person if my circumstances were different. To further expound the thought, neither would I be the same person if one single event had not happened.
However, I'm not sure I understand what "male privilege" is supposed to be.

"Male privialage" is a life condition based upon the birth right granted by tradition in most of the worlds cultures.  It allows access that is specifically denied women, even in todays world of the most advanced countries.

Even after having purged ones self of this privialage and not being able to directly access it, it is still perceived as having given advantage which is retained, be this true or false.

Especially in the case of older Transgenders, it is also perceived of having developed certain mind sets and expectations which are not compatible with womens point of view, again, true or false.

It's a complicated argument and quickly falls apart upon actual investigation, but like I said before, it is an idealology which by nature of things doesn't have to hold true in all cases, but is taken as "gospil" by some and because of thier ferver, affects the views and thinking of others.  It is a remnant of 70's feminist movements who blamed everything, even spilling their morning coffee , on the male patriarchy.  They see all the problems of the world wrapped up in male control and within some lesbian circles, this is extended to transgenders.  It's not right and it is being addressed from within.  Those of us affected must give it time, though it hurts.

Terri

I've been really seeking a term or something to describe myself... (a person born with female genetailia, and female psyche and having no desire to change that lol)

The only reason I'd ever seek to seperate myself from someone born with male genetailia and a female psyche is because, I have no idea what "its like" so to speak.... and sometimes I feel the need to just say.. basically ( oh yea btw take my advice with a grain of salt because I've never 'been there - done that' )

So you ladies tell me... what is least offensive?  I'm really nervous about stepping on toes and offending someone...

Don't worry so much about stepping on toes if unfamiliar with the culture Alison the majority understand the unfamiliar ground you are on.  Many here have heard it all and will simply "correct" you, as long as it does not seem you have any deliberate  malice towards such people.

as to seeking a term for yourself, try Blessed, you are describing a condition many here could only dream of.

Whats offensive?  you would have to ask each and every person here that question and each new person to determine that.  All are different and have different buttons and triggers.  We just learn to be contientious of each other and if we state a view we know is not popularly accepted, we try to do so in the most pollite manner possible with the same advice of a grain of salt.  Each is intitled to their own view regardless of how controversial, as long as it is not personally ment to demean or virtually injure another.

As a person born with female genetailiia  a female psych and no desire to change that, your views on gender, and what you expect to witness in a person presenting as that gender while being of the opposite sex, would be much appreciated by many, though some may have vastly different opinions.  Join in and roll yer dice just like the rest of us.

Terri

Ah alright I understand what you mean by "Male privilege" then Terri. I don't think I've been privy to much if any "male privilege" but it could be I'm just blind. I think there is validity to the thought in that different life circumstances produce different people (that are otherwise identical) but


Alison, as far as what is and isn't offensive I believe that Terri hit the nail on the head. In my case, if it is an accurate/factual description it is not offensive. ;) At least as a general rule anyway.

i understand male privilege, i was given advantages and i took them as i think any woman would who could. it took until i was 30 or so before i understood this and recognized it when i saw women treated differently because they were women. it bothered me and i noticed that men were mostly oblivious to it.  my experience living as a perceived male gave me too much incite into how men are. i have a very poor view of most men. it isnt hatred, just an understanding of their thinking and a rejection of it. obviously my experiences are different than those born with female bodies. i think that a woman born into a very rich family might be as different/or more different compared to the average woman than i am. i dont see the male privilege affecting Ts women enough to make them not women. i could just as easily say that unless you have been a very poor woman with no one to turn to for help, you do not understand what it is like to be a woman in our society. male privilege is just one of the many privileges that are available.

since the definition of what i am depends on gender being something other than genitalia type, i reject any label that infers female genitaliaed (new word :)) born individuals are the only women born women, in fact some are men.

Understood 4years, though there is much concerning male privialage you would not even be aware of or think of as such, yet I would venture you have experienced it without even knowing the circumstances of your life.  It is something most would believe they have been denied because of their life long conditoin, but have in reality enjoyed "fringe" benifits of, or if having at any time at all, used male identification for any reason have most certaintly taken advantage of.  It is a whole topic in and of itself and would require much restraint and self examination to post in on a public board with the varying levels of stages and experience involved.  To hot a subject in some circles.

And beth, though there be truth in male privialage and TS or otherwise full time women are more akin to thier naturally born female sisters then to other people who were born and remain male, it is simply the appication of a philosophy that is arguable to our dying day if compromise is not achieved.  And your right about not all women born as physical females being equal in privialage as women, that is another issue being addressed simultaniously.

It is simply conceptions based upon anger and predujudice, and in some, an oportunity to "pay back" millinia of womans abuse by male society or protecting their own "privialaged" status as women among women.  It will not be rectified overnight, but it is up to each of us to respect the issue and be the best we can be in the interm  and work for understanding, not occupation, which would only make thier point for them.

As to women born as female taking the same oportunities you admit to taking advantage of, the difference is, you could, they couldn't and cant under any normal circumstances, thus the issue.

terri

Quote from: Terri-Gene on July 10, 2005, 12:52:07 AM
It is simply conceptions based upon anger and predujudice, and in some, an oportunity to "pay back" millinia of womans abuse by male society or protecting their own "privialaged" status as women among women.  It will not be rectified overnight, but it is up to each of us to respect the issue and be the best we can be in the interm  and work for understanding, not occupation, which would only make thier point for them.

A conversation with a post op woman who asked me to take her to the bar and introduce her to some of the women there.  I told to just come down and be there enought to meet them and get a chance to know them.  Her reply word for word was:

QuoteI don't want to listen to their bullsh** I just want to date them

Terri is so right!  You cannot demand acceptence or inclusion.  That is given by those whom you wish to associate with.

Same job function, both male and female do the same thing, the male gets paid more.

Both man and woman do the same thing; the man gets (more) praise for it.

An so on and so forth. Presuming I understand correctly. The above is also called discrimination but that is how I would call any sort of "privileged" status. Does not mean I am correct, of course.

Male privelige.  More pay for for doing the same or less at work.  More men are at the top of the executive feeding order than women.  Men are hired first in most jobs despite the same  or less education and abilities.  Hooters is an exception  ;D

Women were and still are to some extent viewed as chattel.  Look at history.  When were the slaves freed and when were women given the right to vote?  Women and men in the same room, who dominates the conversation or attempts to?  Men talk at you, women talk to you.  Which gender controls the majority of the wealth?  How many of the world leaders are women?

In Thailand you pay to send your children to school.  Boys go, girls stay home because they have less value.  The middle east-almost total subservience to men.  Japan-a *proper* women walks behind the man.

The examples of women held down by men go on forever.  Yes there are exceptions but thats what they are, exceptions to the rule.  If men could clean up afterthemselves and impregnate themselves, women would be on the endangered species list.

Quote from: Leigh on July 10, 2005, 01:16:09 AMYou cannot demand acceptence or inclusion.  That is given by those whom you wish to associate with.

Very true, this has to be earned by us, part of it is being respectful, and earning respect.

I am fortunate where I work  (a very progressive, international school bus company) The the workforce is a virtual 50 - 50 split male and female.  with a lot of females on  the executive side, so compensation is fair accross the board.  At our branch the manager is female the office administrator, dispatcher is female. the shopforman and mechanic is male, then there's me, the driver developement and safety officer., the drivers are split 25 male, 21 female (they all get paid the same wage, and have the same benifits).

The company has taken gradual, positive steps in my case, to help with my transition at work.  This has included education, workshops, townhall meetings.  However, even with all this I know that I just can't show up for work and expect to accepted by the other women, as a women.  To some I'll always be "that guy who had a sex change.".  But I think that I'm in a better position than a lot of TS, and we have a large turnover in employees so eventually maybe I will be accepted.

Maybe...

Steph

Its really all so simple when you stop and think about the history of it.

Men have all the rights and privialages and women get what the men allow them to have, or to keep.

It's only started to get better since women fought for and were given the right to vote, so now they have a tool, if they can get by their men to use it that is.

Look at all the things women have had to fight for in this country alone.

Right to own property
right to keep property or money for themselves if married. It was taken over by the husband to do with as he wished prior.

Just to name a couple of very basic things of independant survival.  Tons more if anyone wants to list em.

Terri

Terri

Actually I'd like to hear a little input from FtM's on this issue and what they are beginning to experience in the way of difference in thier relationships with society as they progress.  I realize that a lot of such a conversation could be somewhat offensive to them, considering, but it is not ment to be, they have had no prior input from the male perspective on this and share no responsibility in it, and I perceive that for the most part, they would be a different type of man, so it would be nice to get thier take on it as they have been affected by it despite thier own convictions and desires.

I'm still pretty early in my transition, so I'm not sure how I'll feel when I'm passing more. I don't think I have a problem with the distinction between bio male and trans male though. I think passing through adolescence and living as an adult and being seen as female has shaped me in a different way than a bio male, psychologically.

Having always been "male-brained", I'm also different from bio women who are not trans.

I think the differences are positive. My ex, who constantly complained about male behaviours in me, may disagree.

I do think there's something that a good number of years being taken as less competent, less knowledgeable and more vulnerable does to your psyche. That is a part of male privilege that I did not get because of my history. It's not as simple as earning power, or being paid more for the same job a man does. It's more pervasive than that. It's fighting for every bit of credibility that is automatically given to a man.

For example, I was in a lighting store (as female), with my roommate and her boyfriend. I was going to be repairing our lamp and was asking about the connections. The boyfriend wasn't near us at that time. I received half of a detailed (albeit patronizing) explanation before the boyfriend came up to join us. This man was incapable of holding a screwdriver without damaging anything. The lighting guy immediately switched focus to the boyfriend and started explaining to him. My friend said "he's not going to be doing the work, she is." Lighting guy ignored her and continued talking to boyfriend. Unfortunately, that gave boyfriend the idea that he could do it. He managed to short out the new part and break the lightbulb with the screwdriver before I convinced him to give it up and let me do it.

When I graduated from law school, I was helping a friend change the locks back on his rental to the original. The superintendent watched me work for a while and said, "wow, a female who can use a ratchet. Amazing."

That, times 100, is what it's like growing up female. Every interaction is tinged with the presumption that you are less capable and less competent than even the dimmest male. It gets less so as you get older and less so when you prove yourself in a professional field, but it does affect you having gone through that.

Dennis

Such perspective as I was looking for Dennis, thank you.  Going the other way, I know exactly what you are talking about.  I've always liked playing around with cars and motorcycles.  At 15 I buiilt my first car out of a salvage yard.  I worked as a dismantler on weekends and was paid in parts.  I built up on a 57 ford body I found which only needed a windshiield, fenders, grill etc, engine, front end and running gear all of which I found on other cars in the yard.  There was a little porthole Tbird there with a 312 sporting a triple duice setup and it had been crushed from the rear, making the body unusable, so I used the engine.

At 16 I became interested in Harleys and quickly learned all I could about them.  My father bought me a "full dresser" and in a few months I had put the Panhead engine and running gear into a Knuckle Head ridgid frame after jacking the seat post height and moving it back to make room for the slightly higher head height of the panhead and clearance between the seat post for the valve cover ring.  New "Stacks" were made for me by a friend who's dad owned a muffler shop.  I made the new leather seat myself and also laced a Triumph front rim into the harley spool with spokes I had custom cut at a bike shop, thus making the narrow 21" front wheel that was common to the outlaw "Choppers" of the time.

I had also glass sculpted the frame and did my own paint as well as fished all wiring through the frame to make it "invisable".  After tasteful chrome, sandblasting and front end cup turning and a coordinated color scheme, it turned out to be a beautiful piece of machinery.  No one could believe it was the first bike I had ever built.  I developed a lot of skill in glass sculpting, wiring and asthetics and worked on customizing machines for others.  It was this skill, and eye for creating distinctive one of a kind machines that ended up more then anything else getting me involved with the dominant outlaw MC crowd in my area.

All I'm saying is I have a life history of working with and around vehicles. My experience with this gender wise is that while I could before walk into a parts store, state what I wanted and regardless of if that part was normally associated with the make, modle and type of vehicle I was working on, I was never questioned about the discrepancy, they just pulled my part, wished me luck and took my money.

It's getting different now.  I go in, order the correct part for the vehicle and salesman always askes me what is wrong with the existing part, what my problem with it is and other things that could be causing the problem.  All this after obtaining all possible information on make, modle, engine size, transmition etc and am I sure I can handle such a job.  Sometime I feel like telling em to shut thier yap before i plant a size 9 in it and just give me my damn part, but of course I always give them a bright smile, tell em thank you for the information and explain If there is any problem, I have friends I can ask.

It drives me crazy to be treated like this, incompetant. just because they perceive I am not male.

Terri

Ooh, that sounds like a beautiful bike, Terri-Gene. I've had similar behaviours from males at parts counters. One guy tried to tell me I had two belts when I knew damn well I had three. Turned out the alternator had been replaced, which was why the discrepancy. Guy spent about half an hour telling me I was crazy, without bothering to go out from behind the counter and actually look at the car.

It's funny now that I'm passing about half the time, I'm unsure when I'm given more credit for being capable than I'm used to. It kind of throws me off balance.

I suppose this is another benefit to being trans, we get both perspectives on the assumptions that people make about gender.

Dennis

Quote from: Dennis on July 11, 2005, 05:17:32 PM

I suppose this is another benefit to being trans, we get both perspectives on the assumptions that people make  Dennis

I would say I hate to say I disagree but I am convinced that (in my case) there are sip/zilch/zero bennies.  I certainly would like the benefit of not knowing what the *other side* is about. 

My therapist asked me a question: "what would a man think of that"?   My reply was "How would I know"?

Quote from: Leigh on July 11, 2005, 08:21:54 PM
My therapist asked me a question: "what would a man think of that"? My reply was "How would I know"?

Good point Leigh.
Dare I say why would you care (generally speaking of course)

Quote from: Dennis on July 11, 2005, 05:17:32 PM
I suppose this is another benifit to being trans, we get both perspectives on the assumptions that people make about gender.

Personally I don't see how I would have the benefit of both perspectives on assumptions that people make.  I have always been a woman, and my mind/thoughts/perspectives have always been female, not male.  Just because I looked like a male doesn't mean that I think or act like one.  In fact, this point alone  created a lot of confusion at work for me, where people didn't get me, didn't understand where I was coming from.  I was sending mixed signals I guess

I have to concede that, in the past, looking like a male mean't that I was treated like one, so I did see the treatment.  However, I've never treated a woman as a man would do, and I never will.

Hmmmmmmmm, that sounded a little conveluted! ???

Steph

I get you Steph. And I think the benefit for me is that I will never treat a woman like she was less capable or less intelligent than me just because she's a woman. If I'd been born male, I might perhaps have fallen into that (I would hope not, my father never did, but you never know).

I am also with you, Leigh, with the burdens it seems like there are no benefits, but if you look past the burdens, perhaps there is one or two.

Dennis

  "Just because I looked like a male doesn't mean that I think or act like one"

Well, I for sure fell into acting like one and in many ways even learning to think the same way.  And I gotta admit, there were many times I even treated women like one.  Is why I say for all practicle purposes I was one.  If the shoe fits .....

Nothing can do about it now, can just say for awhile, I really wanted to be one, just to end all the confusion, and I had such great role modlels to learn from ...... Its been a long walk out of the woods, barefoot.

Terri

 " that sounds like a beautiful bike, Terri-Gene"

Had a lot of very pretty and highly advanced bikes Dennis.  for some reason I always enjoyed working and building them more then I did actually riding them.  To me it was an art form and since I've never been able to draw a straight line ......

Anyway they just kept getting more powerfull and faster and though I totally totled almost every one, none of em ever killed me, damn it.

Terri