Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Site search is broken so blame that if this sort of thing has been asked before.

So hypothetical situation for you guys:

Person A lives in State X, which has ridiculous requirements for changing the sex marker on one's driver's licence.

Person A lives very close to State Y, though, which has much simpler and more easily met requirements. Person A also is friends with Person B, who lives in State Y and would be willing to let Person A use her (Person B's) address to, say, get a State-Y licence (hopefully with the correct marker).

Not having a ton of experience defrauding the government, Person A is not sure how well-thought-out this plan is. What do you think?

I suppose you could always say that you lived there for a couple months, and just never got around getting another one with the "correct address" on it.

That will at least suggest that you held a legal tenancy there. I don't think that it will work for employment purposes though, or anything involving a background check, etc.
You can probably use it at places like the airport though. ^_^

I guess Person A's other concern is insurance. Rates in State Y are way higher than in State X, so presumably Insurance Company Q would be very interested to know that Person A has allegedly established residency there... and presumably everyone involved would find it suspicious if Person A claimed another change of residency back to State X a month or two later. (is this a tired metaphor yet)

Yea that is the only problem I can see with it. You would have to keep your residency in state Y for at least 6 months id say so no one gets suspicious. Which that would probably be problematic.

Transfer a couple bills there.
Credit card, cell phone bill, etc., something like that, with that you establish a paper trail.

Not that I know the specifics and this person is not even trans: I do know someone who got another state's license for a specific purpose and as far as I can tell the insurance companies and what not have no clue and none of this person's stuff has been affected (yet) by doing this.  So if it's a short term deal...

Not saying go for it but... ;)


Jay

I'd love to see, but not be, the test case for that.  You could be in violation of the Driver's License provisions of the Homeland Security Act, which is a federal felony.  You could also face fraud charges and lying on an official forum.  Why not just move?

Bear in mind that under the provisions of the "Real ID" act you may need to present more identification than just your current driver's license. In which case you may end up with your old name and gender anyway on the new license. That is the situation with my partner having a California driver's license but not a legal name change, and Minnesota requiring a primary document other than a DL. Check the laws and policies in your state first.

Not to mention your car registration. Showing a cop a different state license and plates could be a problem. You have 60 days to change them after a move.

As noted, risky at best, and potentially illegal at worst. All it would take is a records check to notice the difference and you would be in trouble with your home state since you use the home state for taxes, insurance, employment, residency, etc. The DL wouldn't match, and your home state would ask questions, which if proven, includes fines.

And some states now do cross-state checks for vehicle tags and DL's where there is a significant differnce in costs (flat versus proportion for vehicles). And consider being stopped and asked why your car and insurance is in one (home) state and your license in another. And the deadline to get an in-state DL is a ticket and fine. And consider how you tell your car insurance company the difference? They don't like that unless your in the military.

But then it's your call and life. Good luck.

The great American way around all of this - because there is always a way around, that is legal - is to own land in the state, because ownership of land (and a P.O. Box) is considered legal residency.  Ask all the people in Cali who own a desert acre in Nevada to avoid Cali income tax.

South Carolina and New Hamshire and Montana are three states that still don't demand your SS# so you can be stealth with DL from there. Maybe the Obama administration will change the national ID act so other states don't demand the SS# too :)

If the National ID act is changed, it will go the other way.  Matter of fact, its going to be biometric, so no matter what you do, it will still track to the same base records, and those records also record all changes.  So if there is change, I don't see the other 47 being forced to conform to the 3.  More like the other way round.  And the feds use SSN for everything, they are not going to change.

Quote from: SusanK on January 02, 2009, 05:00:13 PM
As noted, risky at best, and potentially illegal at worst. All it would take is a records check to notice the difference and you would be in trouble with your home state since you use the home state for taxes, insurance, employment, residency, etc. The DL wouldn't match, and your home state would ask questions, which if proven, includes fines.

I guess this is the whole question really.

To me it seems unlikely. If i had (for example) lived with my parents in State X, and then moved in with friends in State Y and got a State-Y licence but kept most of my bills going to my parents, how would State X know? Even if they have a shared database that shows that i've got a new licence, the DMV in State X (or in State Y for that matter) doesn't really have the authority to go checking through my tax and insurance and employment information, do they? The worst they could do is flag me for not having changed my registration, but that isn't something that i would realistically be caught for unless i was pulled over for something else, yeah?

As far as insurance my cursory on-line research seems to suggest that you don't have to change your policy or anything if you're 'temporarily' living in another state (i.e. for less than 6 months or so).

Does that sound right or am i being dumb?

Insurance companies do research on clients all the time, as long as all you do is write them checks, and don't file a claim, your fine.

Quote from: lilith on January 02, 2009, 06:37:38 PMDoes that sound right or am i being dumb?

The key to remember is your "legal" address. Everything hinges off of that since it's used and expected to be correct for all your documents with the local, state and federal government. This doesn't mean you can't have a difference between address, whether intra- or inter-state, you just have to have a legitmate reason. If you have more than one address, one will still have to be your legal one, and many states require it to be your primary residence, meaning where you spend a majority of your time in a given year and pay taxes.

I know some people haven't followed this and had differences in the vehicle licenses and DL, and even their residence, but that was when records weren't computerized and not immediately available to whomever wants to know, including the police standing beside your car. You might be able to lie your way out of situations, and get by with it for years, but you'll always have to remember the excuses.

Good luck.

The first thing is to get your name changed legally.  In this legal order, you can add a provision that says:

"For the purposes of indentification, ___(name)_________ shall be recognized as female (male)."

This gender marker should be congruent with the recognized gender of your name, so that it is a reasonable part of the order.

Most judges do not read the entire order, so 90% of the time they will sign it.

Using the signed order, you can show this to the clerl at the DMV or SS, and they MAY change the gender marker.  It still helps to have a benevolent clerk to work with.

Quote from: Virginia87106 on January 03, 2009, 09:09:49 AM
The first thing is to get your name changed legally.  In this legal order, you can add a provision that says:

"For the purposes of indentification, ___(name)_________ shall be recognized as female (male)."

This gender marker should be congruent with the recognized gender of your name, so that it is a reasonable part of the order.

Most judges do not read the entire order, so 90% of the time they will sign it.

Using the signed order, you can show this to the clerl at the DMV or SS, and they MAY change the gender marker.  It still helps to have a benevolent clerk to work with.

I don't know too many states where you could get away with doing that.

Quote from: Lisbeth on January 03, 2009, 09:29:23 AM
I don't know too many states where you could get away with doing that.

I agree since for many changes, especially federal documents, you need additional documents, like the updated birth certificate, letter from the surgeon, etc. For most purposes and probably all legal purposes, that statement wouldn't have any merit by itself.

As for some states, the DMV needs letters of reference from physician and/or therapists you're under a transistion. I know in Washington, they take 10-14 days to research the application for the gender marker change, like contacting people. A clerk alone can't make the change. So the court order would be meaningless.

Quote from: tekla on January 02, 2009, 05:19:11 PM
The great American way around all of this - because there is always a way around, that is legal - is to own land in the state, because ownership of land (and a P.O. Box) is considered legal residency.  Ask all the people in Cali who own a desert acre in Nevada to avoid Cali income tax.

LOL I should try this.  I own property in TX.  I do plan to move there eventually.


Jay

well as I live on a sailboat (I'm weird I know), I've used a UPS store mailbox as my legal address for years without a problem.   

Beni

The tax deal most likely would not work for you if you only have one employer.  The people I know still have to pay taxes on the money they make in California, but for the jobs that take them out of state, they get a pass on that income. 

So this year it would not have mattered for me as all of 24 different employers (you think your taxes suck?) were located in California.  But if I got a good movie gig, with a lot of out of state, out of country shooting, I'd think about it.

Quote from: tekla on January 03, 2009, 09:48:25 PM
The tax deal most likely would not work for you if you only have one employer.  The people I know still have to pay taxes on the money they make in California, but for the jobs that take them out of state, they get a pass on that income. 

The state tax codes get more complicated than that. If you are going to claim residence in state Y, you can expect state Y to come ask you for a tax return. Back when I moved from Iowa to Minnesota I thought I would only pay Iowa tax on my Iowa job, but the rule was to add the incomes from the two jobs together and prorate it by the amount of time I lived in each state. Ish.

Nevada does not have a state income tax, which is why people do it.

Quote from: SusanK on January 03, 2009, 08:51:08 AMThe key to remember is your "legal" address. Everything hinges off of that since it's used and expected to be correct for all your documents with the local, state and federal government. This doesn't mean you can't have a difference between address, whether intra- or inter-state, you just have to have a legitmate reason. If you have more than one address, one will still have to be your legal one, and many states require it to be your primary residence, meaning where you spend a majority of your time in a given year and pay taxes.

Well, that is sort of how i have it already. I moved at the beginning of last year to another county and much of my documentation (bank info, Selective Service, DL, voter registration, vehicle registration) hasn't been updated, or wasn't until very recently. I guess that is somewhat different though, since it's still within the same state.

I didn't consider taxes. As far as the IRS is concerned, though, your address is whatever you put on your W-4/W-2/whatev, isn't it? Like if i don't change anything on there they would never know the difference unless they audited me for some reason. ?

It's likely i might end up moving to State Y eventually anyway, so i suppose unless i randomly get fired from my job in State X that would make things significantly easier. Whether i try it the way i've described will probably just depend on the time frame.

Quote from: lilith on January 04, 2009, 03:43:02 AM
Whether i try it the way i've described will probably just depend on the time frame.

My sense is that doing it any way other than by the book would open a very large can of worms.