Susan's Place Transgender Resources

My rambling thoughts...

Read at your own risk

I was thinking about stuff these last few days and something occurred to me.  It seems like almost no one understands or appreciates the experience that Harry Benjamin Syndrome people go through.  Why?  Then after thinking about what seemed like an entirely unrelated topic I it hit me.  Even on a forum such as this it seems like no one can agree on what a woman is.  I won't pretend to speak to the F2m experience because I have never had it, but from my M2F perspective the problem seems to be that to some people, being a woman is an idea.

I think that is what most puts off non "trans" women.  The idea that being a woman is an idea... it is like saying planet earth is an idea or like saying water is an idea or people are an idea...

Anyway, we all have our own ideas of what it means to be a woman but it seems that somehow the idea crept onto forums such as this that being a woman is only an idea, something any individual can decide to be or not be.  It seems pretty misogynistic to me, like the ultimate way to go beyond objectifying women.  Imagine, instead of reducing women to a mere object, let's nullify them even more and say they aren't even an object, they are only an idea.  And who is entertaining this idea, women?

Anyway, I think the reason that non transsexual women hold us in such contempt at some times is because they are under the impression that some of us are saying that being a woman is merely an "idea" or a lifestyle choice and I think some of "us" are actually saying that.  Feminist?

I think that is why there tends to be such division at times on support forums.  Often times someone will say, "How on earth can you go from one closet to another, letting people believe you are a woman and hiding the truth?"  "What, how can you just bury (your) past as a man and live a lie?"  Or how can you bury (your) past as a transsexual or transsexual woman or trans person or ->-bleeped-<- and live a lie?  Someone recently said, "Some of us can pass as women but we let people know we are trans because we aren't ashamed of what we are."  To me being a woman isn't an exercise in shame and it makes me wonder what such a person believes they are.

To me being a woman isn't an idea.  To me being a woman isn't a way to "hide the truth".  To me being a woman is who I am.  I have always been female and transition was a way for me to be a woman, when did being trans become an identity?

Being born as I was was like being born a spoon and having everyone think you are a knife.  Everyone expected me to be good at cutting stuff when I really was designed to scoop up stuff, even though my body betrayed me.  I realize it isn't that simple but I expressed it that way in order to communicate that it is a core truth about someone, being a woman is like being a human being or being a goldfish, it is not an "idea" it is how one experiences life and transition was a means for me to have the experiences I was being denied.

I didn't transition because I identified as trans, transsexual, transgender...  I transitioned so I could begin having the experiences I had been denied all my life and how does outing myself as trans allow me to have the experiences I have been denied? 

Some people say well we are transsexual women.  I don't know about you but I wasn't born identifying as a "transsexual woman" and I don't know anyone who treats transsexual women the same way that they treat women because when you say you are a transsexual woman what you are really communicating is the idea that a man can become a woman and no one believes that - and in their minds if you were really a woman then you would be a woman, not go around confusing people by telling them you are trans or transgender or a trans woman or a transsexual woman.

In order to live as a transsexual woman or a trans woman or "whatever" and still be a woman you have to limit the world you live in.  I think many people limit their lives to an Internet existence because on the Internet anyone can be a woman (or a cartoon or a furry or a transformer) but out there amongst the nons... the rules are different.  We keep thinking we can change the rules but in order to change the rules the entire world has to be convinced that being a woman is an idea and I don't think everyone goes along with that.

Your mileage may vary and I don't expect everyone to agree and I didn't write this to cause a war or make people upset but I felt like I needed to post this.

[Modified to read better]

I realize very few people are able to experience a "perfect" transition.  Some of us get gendered male, but some women who were born with the right parts get gendered male also.  If we are women and if we aren't ashamed of who we are then perhaps some of us might consider making fewer excuses for existing.  Since when do people have to explain themselves in order to have the right to exist?  This isn't a shame issue to me, far from it.  I realize we all have different situations and difficulties and this bit of rambling might not be useful to everyone but how about it, what about the concept that not being ashamed means not making excuses for yourself or not feeling like you have to explain yourself?

Hi Caprica, I know I'm just a baby here but I have to say I agree with you. To me being a woman isnt an idea its a true state of being. You just know in your heart what you are. And I agree I dont want to be known as a trans woman but a woman- this is not saying I'm ashamed of being a transexxual- I'm not. Thats why if I ever get to transition I'm going to do everything humanly possible to erase the "man"! And I also think that a real man cant become a woman and just dosent want to because he simply just isnt! 8)

I don't know, I try not to get too involved with these sorts of issues.

However, from looking around, the definition of 'Transsexual' seems to be that of a person who identifies with a different physical sex from the one with which they were born. You can take that any number of ways, but, it seems to me that when reduced to its simplest terms... if you identify as transsexual then, by definition, you aren't one... since 'transsexual' isn't a sex, or an identity, it's... a condition. It's like saying "I identify as an asthmatic".

How can you identify as something which itself is a term for someone identifying as something else? ???

Having said that, if you identify as a woman but are born with male physiology, then, using the above definition, you are transsexual, whether you incorporate that into your identity or not. It's exactly because you identify as fully female that you are transsexual.

*shrugs*

I guess everyone is different, and people's identities are their own domain and not for me, or anyone else to judge.

Quote from: Leiandra on January 09, 2009, 12:48:04 AM
I don't know, I try not to get too involved with these sorts of issues.

However, from looking around, the definition of 'Transsexual' seems to be that of a person who identifies with a different physical sex from the one with which they were born. You can take that any number of ways, but, it seems to me that when reduced to its simplest terms... if you identify as transsexual then, by definition, you aren't one... since 'transsexual' isn't a sex, or an identity, it's... a condition. It's like saying "I identify as an asthmatic".

How can you identify as something which itself is a term for someone identifying as something else? ???

Having said that, if you identify as a woman but are born with male physiology, then, using the above definition, you are transsexual, whether you incorporate that into your identity or not. It's exactly because you identify as fully female that you are transsexual.

*shrugs*

I guess everyone is different, and people's identities are their own domain and not for me, or anyone else to judge.

If I was smarter I wouldn't get involved in these sorts of issues either.

That is the thing, an identity? 

When did being a woman become an "identity"?  Merriam-Webster says that 'Identity' has to do with character or psychological identification.

Many people including scientists and sex therapists, doctors.. recognize that our largest sexual organ is our brain.  And it is believed by many that GID is an intersex condition of the brain, male body, female brain.  Psychologists and doctors recognized years ago that it was impossible to re-sex the brain and instead transition became a means for people who suffered from GID to be able to have normal lives.

Now anyone can argue what it means to be a woman but for some of us it isn't a matter that is up for argument or debate, some of us are stuck being female, even when we were trapped in male bodies, forced to grow up male.

An identity?  An identity is something you cultivate or adopt, character, disposition.. for people with GID this is not a matter of "identity".  Think about it, even you people who have GID, this is an opportunity to reconsider your situation, did you transition because woman was your "identity"?

I know that when I entered puberty and my body began being flooded with male hormones, that was when I knew that I was cursed by god and that was when I realized I had no place in this world.  When I finally was able to start hormones and anti-androgens it was like putting ice on a second degree burn.  Finally I had relief, finally I had peace.  That wasn't an idea, that was not the result of an "identity" that was 'biology'.  Hormones do not equal "identity" hormones = biology, chemistry, 'physiology' not "psychology".  I did not transition because I "thought" I was female, I had to transition because I 'think' female, I process female, I experience life and other human beings, situations and emotions as female and my prescription for better health was not ideas, or identities,  my cure was biological.

I wanted so badly to be able to be male.  I spent years trying to be male.  I did everything conceivable to become male including steroids.  If I could have simply shifted my identity I would have, "lord" knows I have shifted my identity plenty of times.  I played the part of male for years, I even convinced myself I was male, my identity was male, it was something biological that was the problem, something I could not change.  I know from experience that I can change my identity but I can't change what I am.

All I really want out of this thread is for a few people to take what I have said into consideration.  If I have accomplished that much then I can feel good about having made a fool of myself.

YMMV

Quote from: Caprica-6 on January 09, 2009, 12:00:47 AM
My rambling thoughts...

Read at your own risk


To me being a woman isn't an idea.  To me being a woman isn't a way to "hide the truth".  To me being a woman is who I am.  I have always been female and transition was a way for me to be a woman, when did being trans become an identity?

[Modified to read better]

Quote from: Leiandra on January 09, 2009, 12:48:04 AM
I don't know, I try not to get too involved with these sorts of issues.

However, from looking around, the definition of 'Transsexual' seems to be that of a person who identifies with a different physical sex from the one with which they were born. You can take that any number of ways, but, it seems to me that when reduced to its simplest terms... if you identify as transsexual then, by definition, you aren't one... since 'transsexual' isn't a sex, or an identity, it's... a condition. It's like saying "I identify as an asthmatic".

How can you identify as something which itself is a term for someone identifying as something else? ???

To be quite honest,
my intelligence level will never match the arguments of this sort on here and they become hard to follow, however i spent the first 3 years of my transition unexposed to forums and other people like myself beyond who i bumped into at my private clinic. My therapist was the first person to mention transsexual to me and he is a F2M himself so i don't feel he even identifies as such.

I'm not even sure if I'm agreeing with you ladies or not but to me I'm a woman, i live as one and have no interest what so ever in male driven pursuits or desires unless of course that covers gaming :P...i do know that isn't identity but preference :)

I will just say, i never write in the male / female boxes transsexual i just go about my daily life with everyone oblivious to my unfortunate birth defects and find it hard to accept a label as such.

Don't shoot me please...personal experience only!!!

I don't think anyone is going to shoot you Vanna, I made a bigger target of myself and if anyone tries to shoot at you I am going to jump in the way and take your bullet.  It is what I do, it is my lot in life.

I've read your post and think it's got some good points and it's pretty well thought out. I've read Julia Serrano's book 'Whipping Girl' which deals with some of your questions. You may want to pick it up and give it a read. I don't agree with all she said in it, but it's a good book. Here's my take on a few things in your post that jumped out as me.

Oh, for the record, I am what Serrano calls a 'cisgendered' woman. In other words, I was born this way. My spouse is M2F.

Quote from: Caprica-6 on January 09, 2009, 12:00:47 AM
It seems like almost no one understands or appreciates the experience that Harry Benjamin Syndrome people go through.  Why? 

Well, for us non-trans folks, why *should* we understand? Serrano points this out as well and the only answer I can give is the above. How can those of us who never felt the gender dichotomy truly *understand*? My wife can try to explain how she feels to me, and on an intellectual arena I understand, but to *know* how it feels? I will never be able to do that, because I do not have the gender dichotomy that my wife does.

Quote from: Caprica-6 on January 09, 2009, 12:00:47 AM
Even on a forum such as this it seems like no one can agree on what a woman is. 

What is a woman? That's a question with a *really* big answer. A woman is just that a "woman". What that means is different to every single person on this planet. Danielle will be a different woman than I am. You are and will be a different woman than me as well. And you know what? That's *GOOD*! Women can be anything they want to be and do anything they want to do. So I suppose the simple answer to "What is a woman?" is that a woman is anything she wants to be. :)

Quote from: Caprica-6 on January 09, 2009, 12:00:47 AM
I think that is what most puts off non "trans" women.  The idea that being a woman is an idea... it is like saying planet earth is an idea or like saying water is an idea or people are an idea...

I'm going to disagree here a bit. You can see above about my definition of 'woman'. However for the "putting off" part, it has nothing to do with the definition of 'woman'. It has to do with fear. Fear of something (or someone) *different*. Look at human history. Our typical response to people/cultures that are different from our own has been to kill/suppress/demean/etc them. I see this happening with the gay/lesbian and trans people. I see it happening *within* the GLBT groups. The only way to combat the fear is education...to show that there is nothing to be afraid of. Unfortunately, education comes slowly.

I'm going to wrap this up now as I have to go to work. Interesting topic :)

WR

Quote from: Caprica-6 on January 09, 2009, 05:09:09 AMThat is the thing, an identity? 

When did being a woman become an "identity"?  Merriam-Webster says that 'Identity' has to do with character or psychological identification.

I agree with you. Identity is something we build for ourselves, a construct of who and what we are. But while that identity is perhaps an idea, the things it's based on aren't necessarily. We build our identities from our race, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, political affiliation, our family. All of these are concrete, physical things rooted in our biology or our sociology. Some of us identify more strongly with certain of those aspects, others less so. A fanatical South African Nationalist, for example, defines much of his identity through his nationality, while somebody who grew up next door to him perhaps identifies most strongly with his masculinity, his sense of being a gymrat DUDE. We incorporate new things into our identities and discard old as we grow and change. To my mind that includes unique variations in our brain that lead to autism or downs or being left handed or whatever. That would include trans.

So I don't see identifying as trans and identifying as a woman or a man or whatever being mutually exclusive. Our psyches are based in biology but they also reflect our experiences and our choices. Some experiences we choose to incorporate, others we don't. A closeted MtF trans-person who never acknowledges his gender may have a certain brain chemistry, but simply does not include that gender in his identity, instead basing it entirely on bio-sex. I specifically use he because that is how the person in question identifies, brain notwithstanding.

If you no longer identify as trans, or if you never did, cool, that's your identity, but that does not invalidate how anybody else identifies.

Mina.

As people who transition we are all on a transitional journey.  Depending on where we are in that journey our identity will vary but some of us get sidetracked by transition and remain "trans" instead of finding ourselves.  The journey can be exiting, fun, people find they have friends they can relate to for the first time in their lives, there is the sensation of comfort, security... the outside world can be so uncertain and even scary, why not stay in the transsexual ghetto instead of transitioning, after-all many people who come to America remain in the ghettos instead of integrating, there is the familiar there, the sense of relating, of belonging, of "family", the sense of "security"  The sense of "individuality" why sacrifice that to assimilate, to become something not so unique?  Why enter into the melting pot when someone can remain "special"?  Why finish transition to become a caterpillar when one can become an exotic butterfly and amaze everyone with their "individuality"?

The fact is that being a woman is a lonely venture unless an individual can very successfully assimilate and become accepted by other women, but being accepted by other transsexuals is easy so easy in fact that almost anyone can do it including admirers, crossdressers, and pretty much anyone who can type on a keyboard, why not avoid risk and remain trans?

Thing though is, being trans is a part of our history, our biology, like it or not. We have different experiences growing up, transition itself is a unique experience, and all of these experiences shape who and what we are. That's part and parcel of being trans in the same way that growing up a black kid in Favela in Brazil equates to experiences very different experiences from a suburb kid from Europe. One kid coming out of that Favela will carry a chip on her shoulder for the rest of her life about where she comes from and the experiences she had as a child, or she might totally deny it, or she might simply incorporate it as a part of her identity and move on. Whatever the case, that past can't be erased.

I identify as a woman, and I identify as trans. To me my history is an important part of who I am. It's not something I share with people unless I need to, but neither is it something I am ashamed or afraid of. It's simply a part of my identity in the same way that being from an unspecified country in the Southern hemisphere ;) is a part of my identity, or that I am an anarchist and a Pagan is a part of my identity, or any of a number of other experiences shaped who I am.

Anyway, that works for me, that is who I am. It doesn't have to work for anybody else.

Mina.

Quote from: Caprica-6 on January 09, 2009, 12:00:47 AM
I think that is what most puts off non "trans" women.  The idea that being a woman is an idea... it is like saying planet earth is an idea or like saying water is an idea or people are an idea...

The planet earth and water *are* ideas/concepts. I think this has more to do with philosophy than anything else.

Quote
Anyway, we all have our own ideas of what it means to be a woman but it seems that somehow the idea crept onto forums such as this that being a woman is only an idea, something any individual can decide to be or not be.  It seems pretty misogynistic to me, like the ultimate way to go beyond objectifying women.  Imagine, instead of reducing women to a mere object, let's nullify them even more and say they aren't even an object, they are only an idea.  And who is entertaining this idea, women?

What are women? Basically per dictionary woman = adult female human, female = whatever version of physical sex do you fancy (genetic perhaps? ;))

Quote
Anyway, I think the reason that non transsexual women hold us in such contempt at some times is because they are under the impression that some of us are saying that being a woman is merely an "idea" or a lifestyle choice and I think some of "us" are actually saying that.  Feminist?

Actually het men are the group with most condemning attitudes and women are much more accepting on average.

Quote
I think that is why there tends to be such division at times on support forums.  Often times someone will say, "How on earth can you go from one closet to another, letting people believe you are a woman and hiding the truth?"  "What, how can you just bury (your) past as a man and live a lie?"  Or how can you bury (your) past as a transsexual or transsexual woman or trans person or ->-bleeped-<- and live a lie?  Someone recently said, "Some of us can pass as women but we let people know we are trans because we aren't ashamed of what we are."  To me being a woman isn't an exercise in shame and it makes me wonder what such a person believes they are.

For casual acquintances there is no need to tell. For serious relationship it makes sense to tell, just like with any other serious health issues that are partly in the past. And not telling opens a hole for blackmailing etc

Quote
Some people say well we are transsexual women.  I don't know about you but I wasn't born identifying as a "transsexual woman" and I don't know anyone who treats transsexual women the same way that they treat women because when you say you are a transsexual woman what you are really communicating is the idea that a man can become a woman and no one believes that - and in their minds if you were really a woman then you would be a woman, not go around confusing people by telling them you are trans or transgender or a trans woman or a transsexual woman.

To me "transsexual woman" is more like "a women with health condition X" rather than any identity.

Quote
I wanted so badly to be able to be male.  I spent years trying to be male.  I did everything conceivable to become male including steroids.  If I could have simply shifted my identity I would have, "lord" knows I have shifted my identity plenty of times.  I played the part of male for years, I even convinced myself I was male, my identity was male, it was something biological that was the problem, something I could not change.  I know from experience that I can change my identity but I can't change what I am.

That sounds very weird from my own perspective. Maybe you are just more invested in conforming to societal norms and afraid that you will deviate from them? Why did you try to be a "proper male"?

Being an egg in someones uterus is an "important" part of my past (to some) but since an egg is not who I am it is not relevant to me.  Being trans is just as non-relevant to me.  I knew I was female before transition, I became a woman through transition, transition was like delivery or birth, not something people identify with (for me) but rather a rite of passage or a unavoidable necessity.  People who get lost in transition and continue to identify with it... even after transition is accomplished, I have to wonder if they just took a wrong turn on the highway of life and went with it.

Quote from: lexshue on January 09, 2009, 08:06:32 AM

The planet earth and water *are* ideas/concepts. I think this has more to do with philosophy than anything else.

I suppose the oxygen you breathe is simply a philosophical viewpoint also?

Women are more accepting, so they should accept anything and everything no doubt?

Quote from: lexshue on January 09, 2009, 08:06:32 AM
That sounds very weird from my own perspective.

That sounds VERY judgmental from my perspective.

In breezing, pretty much, through your posts, Caprica, I find them in many ways fascinating. I've copied them elsewhere and intend to read them more, and hopefully better, after I actually awaken. You have what appears to be much food for thought in them.

I also notice in more than one of your posts you've managed to draw distinctions between ideas and being. In these, the dichotomy between "being a woman" and "having an idea of what a woman is."

You also use Harry Benjamin Syndrome as if it were in some way "real" as opposed, perhaps, to "transsexual," "transgender" which you seem to be arguing are "constructs." (When and if you go to Merriam-Webster for construct any definition will do, as it basically means "to make." But the psychological form of "construct" might be more apt to where I am about to go.)

People are, allegedly, rational. We at least "think" or have so defined ourselves as being thinking. Maybe we ratiocinate & rationalize more than we can be said to be rational.

But, what I do see on cursory reading is that you have a number of ideas about things and you use a number of words, meanings and textures that are also based on and adjuncts to "ideas."

I find myself in agreement with your points until I find words like "misogynistic" creeping into your writing. In the spirit of YMMV that is, of course, allowed and always true of anything any of us write. Another's perspective is always gonna make another's thought about a topic YMMV. Just the nature of perspective: we stand at different places and view the landscapes of our lives and others' lives from different places. Change of place causes immediately a change of perspective.

The topic itself will, for those who aren't afraid to read your musings due to the well-craftedness of them and the adept use of language you bring to them, become a kind of political/social exercise. For, at base, what you, and we all, are dealing with is ideas. Plain and simple, almost no fact there at all: perspective and ideas that shade whatever "reality" lies beyond them.

Identity, for the rationalizing and ratiocinating and maybe for the rational among us is a concept fraught with misunderstanding and personal povs. No way around that.

Is "woman" an identity? For me this morning woman has meant preparing others, one woman and one male child, to go out into the world by feeding them and making sure that what they were required to carry with them was available. Then it meant coming here and reading. Was that an identity, or simply a set of things that my body did?

Could I have done those things as a "male" or as a "transsexual" or as a "transgender." I imagine that I could have. Can I walk through this world being seen as, responded to, regarded as and living as "a woman?" Yes, I believe I not only can, but do.

Was I raised as a "girl" and indoctrinated into social constructions that were regarded as "girl-ish.?" No, but the constructions I was indoctrinated into were their own set of difficulties that pressed against and onto who I was. That biological sex you wrote of.

What is my biological sex? I haven't a clue actually, never had a karotyping done nor do I expect to do so. But within me there has always been this ... resistance to entering and partaking of the construct of "man." The construct labelled "woman" or "girl" were of more comfort to me: I felt I fit there.

TBH, anymore I think that man and woman are every bit as constructed as transsexual or transgender or gay or lesbian. They are all a conglomeration of assumtions, mores, rules, ideas and are as a part of human being totally political, in the sense that what we do and do together is innately what we refer to as political: having to do with the ways in which we organize our polises, our communities, our cultures our societies.

Your musings in that regard are no different than anyone else's.

I do tend to agree with Windrider that the "sticking point" isn't the various designations and categories people feel individual comfort with when it comes to acceptance and understanding. I think, that like most human community it has not just more to do with "othering" and "us-ing" but has everything to do with that.

I can live my woman's life because when I am seen and experienced by others that is how they categorize me, that initial 6 or 2 second gendering and with that come a host of qualities and ideas about me that no one would have any way to "know" about me within 2-6 seconds. My life, my experience, yours either, cannot be boiled so pure that its entirity can be discovered in that space of time.

Instead what comes are those presumptions: accepted ideas.

No doubt what you say about life on boards and life (in life?) is absolutely spot-on. Anyone: you, me, Windrider and Mina can sign into an internet forum and declare and try to "act-out" roles we derive from our cultural experience to that point.

I'll try to make a better response later: but for now that "real world" begs for my attention.

This is a nice topic, but seems to be perhaps more philosophical than day-to-day. More political and social than "how-to" so to speak. I've enjoyed, though, watching by proxy the workings of your mind. Quite fascinating. Thank you.

Nichole

Thanks Nichole, I am not sure whether to be flattered or offended and yet I remain wary.  One of the things I alluded to was that being female was biological as evidenced by hormones, the wrong ones and the right ones.  You set me up as an intellectual straw man but I am more than that.  I am not just ideas or mores or values or cultural differences, I am biological, deny me not that please.  Philosophical arguments?  Some know me better because they know themselves and their own experiences and by that they know me.  I am not some cleaver constructor of ideas, I am a human female being.

I can't match your intellectualism or mastery of the English language, I am simply a woman and I share my experiences of being a woman and of struggling.

Can anyone become a woman simply by adopting an idea, I think not, and yet we are supposed to accept anyone who does, it is known as being Politically Correct and women are supposed to be even more accepting than men, no doubt because we are supposed to realize we are less than men and easier to approximate - and have no right to complain - (sarcasm) not intended towards you Nichole, intended towards the collective anti-woman agenda or whatever you want to call it, the same agenda that says anyone and anything can be a woman anytime it wants or anytime someone else says it is.

6, we all define for ourselves who we are. I don't think any identity is more valid than another. Simply different.

Mina.

But whether or not any identity was more valid than another was never the question nor was it the topic of this thread.

Caprica, OK, you are a female, constructed. I mean, that is the point, no? The distinction between one female and another that is relevant to boards like this is that word some will add, "constructed." It's a weight, a weight all of we "constructed" females deal with that our more naturally "constructed" female cohorts don't deal with.

I surely hope you're not offended in any way. It was certainly not my intention to cause you offense. You had placed ideas and thoughts out here and I found them not onlu worthy of, but demanding notice and thought of myself. Please don't be offended at that.

No, you are not an "idea" any more than those who prefer to go by "transsexual" or "androgyne" or any other designation they choose for themselves are "ideas." But the way we communicate with one another, absent some sort of mind-meld, and even, I imagine, then we would also deal in "ideas," is always based on an idea. An idea of whom someone is, where they have been, what their experiences and their lives, their perspectives are.

Alas, they are all mostly different. People do not "know" us so much by our lives as they know us by our communication, especially on boards such as this. We have avatars and we may watch one another's language and the ideas that language expresses, or seems to express, to us. Through that we make determinations of "what" someone we have usually never seen or spoken with "is."

I don't see any way around that. You have now, or even before this set of responses, ideas about me. I have ideas about you. We both have ideas about each other informed by previous contacts, either with one another or with others we relate to each other and so form a concept of one another.

I think, from your words, that you don't wish to have an identity. I can understand that to some extent. But then you say "I am female." That gives you an "identity" immediately, especially when coupled with your admission that you are a constructed female. There's a lot of reading past, through, above and below lines that we shall all do when we read another's typed thoughts.

Nichole 

P,S. BTW, the way I read the Harry Benjamin literature being "constructed" is part of the crux of the distinctions made in the political movement: one must have had "construction." The other rules and regulations that exceed mere construction are more to do with following some sort of guideline set down by the founders and movers of that political movement. "Who will and will not be allowed entrance.

Or, perhaps in all the reading I have done I have delved beyond what is truly there? It is very possible that I have.

Quote from: Nichole on January 09, 2009, 08:39:13 AM
Caprica, OK, you are a female, constructed. I mean, that is the point, no? The distinction between one female and another that is relevant to boards like this is that word some will add, "constructed." It's a weight, a weight all of we "constructed" females deal with that our more naturally "constructed" female cohorts don't deal with.

No Nichole, I didn't become female by constructing myself.  I was a woman whether or not I ever wanted to be a woman.  It was something that was assigned to me at birth, it was not a decision or a construction.  I transitioned because it was the only way I could ever have a life.  If I could have "constructed" myself I would have been male, it would have been easier, I would have had more prestige and the world would have been easier to navigate not to mention having saved thousands of dollars I could have applied to vacations or investments or conquering the "lesser" sex.

But no, I found out first hand that the lesser sex is not lesser nor is it a "construction", not because I wanted to find that out, because that was the outcome of being born female.

A woman can be born without a vagina or ovaries and still be a woman, I mentioned how the brain is our largest sexual organ, etc.  I don't have to "construct" my womanhood to be a woman, I might be able to have a better life because of hormones and surgeries but who and what I am was set at birth.  I didn't have to fake or construct or manufacture my womanhood, only to nons only to people who believe that what is between your legs makes or breaks your gender is that an issue.

OK, then in this case we are not so very far apart afterall. Given my own experience I believe I can understand yours.

But when it comes to the things we are discussing in these posts ... well, the words themselves become fraught with misunderstanding.

Of course, we are both female. However, at some point our natural "constructions" didn't match who we were (identity?) with the bodies we were born with.

Again, though, this is language that's causing the divergences. The same divergences, I find, that are caused in the original argument I thought you were making about the "identities" of those who want to go through their lives saying "I am a transsexual."

I generally imagine that our experiences with such other women and men are quite close. Yet,something makes us want to use one set of words and ideas in our language and them to use another set in their own.

If I don't tell x,y, & z that I had a surgery or three ... is that a lie? I don't think so, it's something that for my own reasons I don't chose to share. Just as I don't always choose to share that I had chicken pox at age six, for instance.

But, the fact of my life remains, I had, what for me, was birth-anomaly surgery. Many will, if they know, perceive that as "constructed female." See what I mean?

Nichole

All I can say after reading these well articulated responses is WOW.  Some of you, if not many, are far more well versed than I am.  I am educated and can understand the thoughts being conveyed, but I don't express my own thoughts nearly as well.

I would have to say I agree with much of what is being said in this thread and it is a very good topic at that.  I am newly beginning my transition and much of this information is very fascinating.  I have often wonder how I will view things at different stages in this journey and after it's complete.  How will I categorize myself in the future?  I know that I will always have some significiant parts of my past which will carry over and into my future being, some of which include my young daughters who are very important and dear to me, and it'll be up to me and me only to integrate them and some other events successfully into my future so as to be a positive rather than a negative influence.  How I define myself and the attitude I present will play a huge role.

I look forward too and am interesting in reading much more on this topic.  I hope some others have thoughts and constructive comments to add.  Great dialogue, let's keep it going.

Nichole, I totally appreciate what you are saying... and I appreciate your patience and your giving me the benefit of the doubt.

You mentioned how "language that's causing the divergences", I totally agree.  In another post I mentioned...

Quote from: Caprica-6 on January 08, 2009, 05:48:01 PM

Quote from: Loving_kindness_4_all on January 07, 2009, 11:45:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk9PNKFky40 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk9PNKFky40)

It is difficult to talk about this kind of stuff with people who have no interest in it.  And it seems like trying to explain it takes away from it and pollutes it because when you try to explain it to people, they begin to relate it to their own ideas, they reinterpret what you are trying to tell them and something get's lost in the translation, the translation from something you know in the center of your being without words or ideas, translated into words and ideas.

The thing is that it is not a words and ideas concept.  It is a wordless and idea less concept.  We use words and ideas to alienate others, to alienate ourselves from who we are.  We use words and ideas to form judgments.  Many people begin to believe that they are their ideas and that without their so-called wisdom and ideas they would be nothing.  But what they don't realize is that their words and ideas are actually their prisons, their self-imposed slavery, their insanity.

There have been people who have stood out like Thoreau and many of us read their words and think to ourselves, oh what a great man he was, such sage wisdom, such a great man.  But the greatness is not in the making of the man, the greatness is in the unmaking.  Many of us think that our intellectualism and wisdom will become our salvation, we just need to gather more ideas, the right ideas.  But freedom does not come from creating a bigger and better ego, a bigger and better construction of ideas racing about in one's mind like infinite logic loops, circular thought leading nowhere.  Freedom comes from recognizing the ego for what it is and finding yourself apart from it, alone from it.  Sadly so many of us are so bonded and identified with our egos that we will always interpret the unspeakable, the unwordable with our own preconceived ideas and preformed notions, the insanity of our own making, when two worlds collide, the worlds we have created in our own minds opposing a world where anything is possible.

What was this thread about again?

It applies to this topic as well

Quote from: Caprica-6 on January 08, 2009, 05:48:01 PMgreatness is not in the making of the man, the greatness is in the unmaking. 

A man-made womanhood is the making of the man.

I quite agreed, as best I could read it and apply my own experience and thoughts to it, Caprica, with what you wrote to that poster when I read it last night.

As someone who's spent a great deal of her life involved with language, though, I realize that the difficulty you're writing about above is going to be one that is forever with us. Short actual divinity in the Judeo-Xtian sense of omniscience, I feel that we are always gonna find some loggerheads in our languages. It's that "boiling so pure" aspect I spoke about earlier.

Our desires, likes and dislikes, ways we learn to use language and, always, those same qualities a reader brings to our language once we free it are always going to cause misunderstandings and divergences so as to make us, at some point say in a discussion, "but you misread what I was saying."

The meta-language that encompasses 9/10 of the linguistic iceberg is almost always hidden, certainly most of it remains hidden, from the view out there.

That's why I try to walk that middle way I PMed you about. It's hard as either one "side" or the other "side" seems to "misunderstand" where I am trying to go. I think I find it more copacetic to have peace, although I have also been known to get pretty down and dirty with my own language when my emotional involvement in an arguement gets out-of-hand.

Again, I freely admit that I bring vast quanities of the unseen to my own writing and read vast quantities of the unseen into what others write. Heck, I already, even before i responded to this thread had "ideas" about who you were and where you were coming from with your posts. As I am reasonably certain you have done with my own.

I think the only way we will come to total agreement is to somehow merge with one another: a Borg Collective! :laugh:

Until and unless we do so, I think that we shall always to some extent be at cross-purposes with one another. Not simply you and me, but we all. Alas, part of that blessing or curse of being human rather than divinity I imagine. :)

Nichole

well, ya are on shaky ground here from the start, i think, because you're attempting to es'plain the workings of the mind.

needless to say, that is a very complex piece of equipment, and, if the average person gets lost hearing a computer geek talk about operating system programming, how much more lost should we be when hearing brain function explanations?

one can say all they want about how they feel. one can hardly ever say how someone else feels.

-ell

Quote from: mina.m->-bleeped-<-ie link=topic=53202.msg330125#msg330125 date=1231506451
Identity is something we build for ourselves, a construct of who and what we are. But while that identity is perhaps an idea, the things it's based on aren't necessarily. We build our identities from our race, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, political affiliation, our family. All of these are concrete, physical things rooted in our biology or our sociology.

reifying - Taking abstract concepts and acting/thinking as thought they are concrete.

No, none of those things is concrete or physical. Skin color may be physical, but race is not. Having sex with an individual is physical; sexual orientation is not. Sociological concepts are never physical or concrete.

As an example, in the last couple of days someone was looking at a photograph with me. She identified the person as black. I intentified the individual as white. The reason for our difference in opinion was that I was going by skin color, and she was going by facial features. Race is entirely constructed by society to determine who has white privilege and who doesn't.