Susan's Place Transgender Resources

This quote from Pica got me wondering:

Quote from: Pica Pica on January 27, 2009, 08:33:08 PM
If I had a female body, I would be a keen wearer of dresses and skirts, I would probably also play around more with make up...

What would you do differently in the opposite sex body?

Opposite sex body = male bodied androgynes in female bodies and female bodied androgynes in male bodies


So, what would you do differently?

Is there a reason you cannot do this in your current incarnation?

Discuss.

I'll chew on that one for a while, but the first thing that occurs to me is that--more importantly than what I would do differently--others would regard and treat me differently.

S

I would get pregnant  :eusa_pray: And would prob. be a "soccer mom"

Quote from: Virginia Marie on January 29, 2009, 03:52:53 PM
I would get pregnant  :eusa_pray:

We could get monthly cramps.

S

I'm not sure what I would do differently. Probably I would shop more, enjoy using cleaner bathrooms, shave less, express more emtion, and I would take on a serious balls out rock chick persona.

Would it change who I am and how would it change who I am? I'm not sure.

I think I would be happier. 

If I was born in a female body, I would wear short hair, get on T, and try to masculinize myself for a more balanced body. I would consider P* construction if T did not sufficiently enlarge the C* (though I would also consider keeping the V), but not top surgery (possibly binding if too large).

And I would behave like a Tomboy, I imagine, behaving (unlady like).

Girl talk would annoy me, as well as menstration.

I would probably be considered a butch lesbian by many.

If I were biologically male, I'd be crossdressing like crazy.


I'd also probably be bisexual... I can't imagine myself with a woman as a woman myself, and I wouldn't want a relationship with a woman, I'd still mainly like guys. Though with socialisation all the other way round it's hard to know whether that would truly be the case...

I think if I'd been born w a female body, my gender expression would be a mix, sometimes long hippie skirts and blouses, think Janis Joplin or Joni Mitchell, other times a jacket and tie, like Patti Smith. With my male body, if I wear jacket and tie I look like a man, which doesn't appeal to me. If I wear skirts or dresses, people get bent out of shape and I get fired... kind of sucks... so I often end up dressing down in jeans...

Z

I'd wear sleeveless shirts.  I can't now because my shoulders are hideous.

I might play masculine clothing against my feminine body (unless I was shaped like my mother  :'( ). I can't really play fem clothing against my male bod right now because I can't really make it appealing to myself.  When I was 20 years old I could have done it.

I think I might be better at emoting than I am right now.  I swear to god, my face muscles don't do what I'd like them to be doing.

I think I might be more of a go getter in a female body.  I'm happy with my self in general, but I'm not quite comfortable enough in this body to be as fearless as I could be.

Ideally, I'd be one of those cute little emo boys.  *squeal!*  I also think I'd be more effeminate than I am now, which is weird.  I really think I would have been more emotionally whole and balanced if I had been a boy.  I would have been much happier, but only if I still had the same personality (being oblivious has many benefits, one of which is not noticing if someone is making fun of you).

Realistically, though, if my little brother is any indication, I'd be way over 6' and clumsy.  That would make me sad.

I'd probably have just as much trouble trying to convince shrinks that my gender identity is valid and would look for ways to add a beard to my otherwise fem body

Quote from: Kinkly on January 30, 2009, 03:00:25 AM
I'd probably have just as much trouble trying to convince shrinks that my gender identity is valid and would look for ways to add a beard to my otherwise fem body

Sorry you're having problems w the shrinks. Your gender id is valid!

Z

If I had a female body, I'd still be an aloof occultist who studies metaphysics all day long.

In short, not much different.  I'd wear different clothes, though.  And I'd probably tantalize my male friends.  'Cause I could.

If I had a male body the first thing I'd do is pee standing up. :P Oh the convenience!

I dunno. I'd be the same, I guess, except I wouldn't really be able to freely wear skirts anymore.

And yep, the convenience of peeing!

Sometimes I feel that if I were male-bodied, I could just be. But that isn't really true, because male bodies are no more neutral than female ones. They come with their own set of expectations.

Actually, if I didn't get pregnant, I would be a super model making bank just for looking good. Strutting my stuff, gracing all the hep mag. covers and investing in stable retirement accounts for when I got old and dumpy

I've always had a sneaking suspicion that had I been born in a female body I'd probably still be gender dysphoric, it's just that I'd be FtM dysphoric instead of MtF dysphoric.  :-\

Oh, I have fantasized a lot about this happening.

Realistically, it wouldn't be as different, I'd still feel dysphoric.
I'd like to have a more intersexed body, perhaps. But it still leaves the "how should I act" and "how should they act on me" thing ...

Anyway. Women are pretty.

I think I'd go shopping, and try lots of clothes. Then come back to my house and ignore them all for days while I'm working. Some *cute* dresses and skirts, and some nice rugged work-jeans and stuff.

I probably would go out more often. It seems that it's easier for a girl to dress androgynously... I dunno.
I'd like to know how it feels to have sex for a female body.
I'd get a boyfriend and have him pay for stuff, mwahaha XD

My sister is big (as in height, not width) so she's always had trouble finding clothes her size. She used to buy men's workshoes, Caterpillar brand, I thought that was very awesome. I stole girly shoes from her, when we were the same size. She didn't like that XD

Well, let's see...

- I'd have an easier time shopping for makeup, dresses, skirts, and the like without getting static from people.

- I'd have less body and facial hair, which would greatly alleviate some of my dysphoria.

- Obviously, some details of my sex life would differ.

I can do the first one where am I now, I just face getting static.

I can do the second one, it just requires a LOT of shaving.

Nothing I can do about the third.

I'd definitely dress up a lot better. Female clothing has so many options, and is so dang mysterious....

It would also be fun to be the one with the sexual power.... showing cleavage, short skirts, etc. I think that shania twain's song "feel like a woman" pretty much captures how i'd want to be.

And of course investigating makeup. That would be a lot of fun.

Quote from: riven_one on February 01, 2009, 04:52:08 PM
I'd definitely dress up a lot better. Female clothing has so many options, and is so dang mysterious....

It would also be fun to be the one with the sexual power.... showing cleavage, short skirts, etc. I think that shania twain's song "feel like a woman" pretty much captures how i'd want to be.

And of course investigating makeup. That would be a lot of fun.

We should get together for a make up and sexy outfits Party! Everyone's invited  :laugh: >:-) :laugh:

Virginia loves to show a bit of cleavage

Quote from: Virginia Marie on February 01, 2009, 04:55:54 PM

Quote from: riven_one on February 01, 2009, 04:52:08 PM
I'd definitely dress up a lot better. Female clothing has so many options, and is so dang mysterious....

It would also be fun to be the one with the sexual power.... showing cleavage, short skirts, etc. I think that shania twain's song "feel like a woman" pretty much captures how i'd want to be.

And of course investigating makeup. That would be a lot of fun.

We should get together for a make up and sexy outfits Party! Everyone's invited  :laugh: >:-) :laugh:

Virginia loves to show a bit of cleavage

I'm down. Of course, i'd need a LOT of makeup, and I don't have much cleavage.

I would be one sexy Grandma.  Exercise like crazy to have that killer body, and then hit the beach in a bikini.  Like that gal in the Bowflex commercial.  >:-)

Janet

I said in that original post that I want to be sweet and cute, I'd be sweet and cute and probably irritate everyone for being so damn sweet and cute.

Quote from: Pica Pica on February 02, 2009, 08:30:19 AM
I said in that original post that I want to be sweet and cute, I'd be sweet and cute and probably irritate everyone for being so damn sweet and cute.

Pica darling, you're already too damn sweet and cute!  ;D

Z

am I already annoying you?

Quote from: Pica Pica on February 02, 2009, 11:18:06 AM
am I already annoying you?

No Pica, I've never found you annoying at all... you'll have to try harder  ;)

Z

Quote from: riven_one on February 01, 2009, 11:09:41 PM
I don't have much cleavage.

Oh, I have duct tape.  We can MAKE cleavage.  Muwhahahahaha!  :icon_evil_laugh:

hmm, i have had that job before on someone. You can also paint cleavage in.

Quote from: Pica Pica on February 02, 2009, 11:18:06 AM
am I already annoying you?

oh i'm annoyed.

Quote from: Jaimey on February 02, 2009, 06:51:48 PM

Quote from: riven_one on February 01, 2009, 11:09:41 PM
I don't have much cleavage.

Oh, I have duct tape.  We can MAKE cleavage.  Muwhahahahaha!  :icon_evil_laugh:

see example here http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/view/80424013/ (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/view/80424013/)

Quote from: Jaimey on February 02, 2009, 06:51:48 PM

Quote from: riven_one on February 01, 2009, 11:09:41 PM
I don't have much cleavage.

Oh, I have duct tape.  We can MAKE cleavage.  Muwhahahahaha!  :icon_evil_laugh:

Yeow!!!  :o

It wouldn't hurt to go together but when it comes to removing the tape.   ~Yeooooooaaaaah~ Heard in NYC from Oregon. :o :'(

Janet

Nice pic, but some of my friends did it to a guy and he totally had boobs.  It doesn't hurt as bad as you might think.  Don't ask how I know that.

I would play with my dangly bits  ;D

While there would be many nice changes (many have already been mentioned)...not having hair growing everywhere on my body would be very nice.  I would dress better, not have to worry about covering five o'clock shadow with scrape-on makeup, and have an excuse for wearing nail polish at work.

There are a few not-so-nice things (in addition to standing to pee and playing with my dangly bits)...I would get to work harder for less money, learn to be "catty" toward other females (well, maybe that isn't so bad?), menstruation and cramps is not something I would look forward to, and it would no longer be acceptable to scratch when and where I itch, nor to spit.

Sadly, I think I would still have gender issues and if I got stuck with the same face, I would be a "less than attractive" girl and still not have a date for the Prom. 

At least as a male-bodied person, I always have something to play with and never have to worry about getting knocked up by some redneck beer-swilling a-hole (unless I was Brittney Spears).

.....L

I think if I was female bodied I would end up just as hairy as I am now. It is kind of a Slavic thing. That does not bother me.

Quote from: Nicky on February 03, 2009, 05:12:54 PM
I think if I was female bodied I would end up just as hairy as I am now. It is kind of a Slavic thing. That does not bother me.

We could use jaimey's duct tape and take care of that issue for you   :o :D

I would disappear into my room for about a day to be alone...then I would work out and build some muscles (but not too much) and then try to crossdress :D

Quote from: riven_one on February 03, 2009, 06:31:32 PM

Quote from: Nicky on February 03, 2009, 05:12:54 PM
I think if I was female bodied I would end up just as hairy as I am now. It is kind of a Slavic thing. That does not bother me.

We could use jaimey's duct tape and take care of that issue for you   :o :D

YEOWCH!  Sadist.  :icon_eyebrow:

Quote from: Jaimey on February 04, 2009, 01:02:44 AM

Quote from: riven_one on February 03, 2009, 06:31:32 PM

Quote from: Nicky on February 03, 2009, 05:12:54 PM
I think if I was female bodied I would end up just as hairy as I am now. It is kind of a Slavic thing. That does not bother me.

We could use jaimey's duct tape and take care of that issue for you   :o :D

YEOWCH!  Sadist.  :icon_eyebrow:

>:-)

i'm smothered in ginger body hair, i like it...especially now i exfoliate and moisturise. means i have smooth lovely skin and course ginger hair, i like the combo.

Quote from: Pica Pica on February 04, 2009, 02:31:37 PM
i'm smothered in ginger body hair, i like it...especially now i exfoliate and moisturise. means i have smooth lovely skin and course ginger hair, i like the combo.

you're hairy?

yup

where at?

usual, arms, legs, chest,

Quote from: Pica Pica on February 04, 2009, 02:49:03 PM
usual, arms, legs, chest,

back? bum?

no

well that's a relief. got a scary visual when you said 'covered.'  :icon_nervious:  :laugh:

Hir regular "back sack and crack" sessions take care of the rest  ;)

Nero, this is a tough one.

A voice in my head says Be careful what you wish for. I've always had a problem with the separation of body and soul. They are interconnected and affect one another greatly.

It would make a difference, whether I had that body suddenly at my age, or started out in the other body. Would all my genes save the sex-related remain the same. With my genes, I doubt I would be a model, though my mother modeled swimwear on Jones Beach; the catch being, it was swimwear her father was trying to sell during the Depression

I suspect I'd say Girls Rule, never question being a woman, and, regardless of neuroses, never be aware this forum existed. I know I am already more comfortable following, than leading, on the dance floor. On the other hand, most of what I like to do, I can do now. Read, write, listen to music, work for social justice, cook, eat and drink, care for children, love my partner, hike. That is probably what makes me an androgyne rather than an mtf.

And now my wife is calling down looking for her supper,
S

Quote from: Nero on February 04, 2009, 03:01:26 PM
well that's a relief. got a scary visual when you said 'covered.'  :icon_nervious:  :laugh:

I'm covered in hair. Pick a body part on me: it's got hair.

Yes, even on my toes.

TMI there

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on February 05, 2009, 02:30:38 PM

Quote from: Nero on February 04, 2009, 03:01:26 PM
well that's a relief. got a scary visual when you said 'covered.'  :icon_nervious:  :laugh:

I'm covered in hair. Pick a body part on me: it's got hair.

Yes, even on my toes.

Palms of the hands?  :o  That would make you a Werewolf!  ::)

I hear the hair part though.  I can't reach my back very well and it is BBBBBBAAAAAADDDDD.  But thank god for Nair.

Janet

My wife and I are talking of getting an epilator. Then, I could ask her to do my back.

She might like that.  Ripping the hair out.  Ouchy.  I wish I had someone to do that or wax.

Janet

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on February 05, 2009, 03:15:13 PM
My wife and I are talking of getting an epilator. Then, I could ask her to do my back.

Sexy!

My wife and I are talking of getting an epilator. Then, I could ask her to do my back.

Wow, now that would be a fun evening.  And he I take girls to movies or something.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on February 05, 2009, 03:15:13 PM
My wife and I are talking of getting an epilator. Then, I could ask her to do my back.

YEOWCH!  I think the world just needs to learn to love body hair (not that I do, by the way...I still shave and all that).  Getting rid of it is a pain in the ass.  That or make some sort of NOT PAINFUL AND PERMANENT way to get rid of it...

Quote from: Jaimey on February 05, 2009, 10:41:46 PM

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on February 05, 2009, 03:15:13 PM
My wife and I are talking of getting an epilator. Then, I could ask her to do my back.

YEOWCH!  I think the world just needs to learn to love body hair (not that I do, by the way...I still shave and all that).  Getting rid of it is a pain in the ass.  That or make some sort of NOT PAINFUL AND PERMANENT way to get rid of it...

Do you have any suggestions? I tried shaving, but it's tricky on the shoulders and I'm left with stubble not long after.

The only things I can stand to do are shave and nair.  Everything else just hurts too much...I'm not a fan of pain.  I do pluck my eyebrows, but even that is painful.  Makes my eyes water... :'(

Quote from: Jaimey on February 06, 2009, 03:18:11 PM
The only things I can stand to do are shave and nair.  Everything else just hurts too much...I'm not a fan of pain.  I do pluck my eyebrows, but even that is painful.  Makes my eyes water... :'(

Hmm, I'm not a real big fan of Nair. But, maybe I just haven't experimented with it enough yet.

Just wondering if the genes or hormones would effect two behaviors where my wife and I differ.

If I see I can help, I do. My wife expects me to ask, "How can I help?" as she would do.

My wife asks me, and often other friends, "What should I wear?" I go to my closet and pick. Actually, she asks a lot of questions like that. As a manager, she has a collaborative style, which I have heard is typical of female people. Or maybe, these behaviors reflect that she is extraverted and I am INFP?

S

Quote from: Simone Louise on February 07, 2009, 09:26:32 PM
Just wondering if the genes or hormones would effect two behaviors where my wife and I differ.

If I see I can help, I do. My wife expects me to ask, "How can I help?" as she would do.

My wife asks me, and often other friends, "What should I wear?" I go to my closet and pick. Actually, she asks a lot of questions like that. As a manager, she has a collaborative style, which I have heard is typical of female people. Or maybe, these behaviors reflect that she is extraverted and I am INFP?

S

I think the reasons between your differences could be a little bit of everything. I'm tending to go towards the fact that you say she is extroverted and collaborative whereas you are the opposite. I'm INFP too, extremely introverted. The only time I ever say "How can I help you?" is when I'm at work, because that's what they want us to say; it 'seems' far more friendly than offering your help without asking someones 'permission'. If I had my way though, I would do my best to avoid dealing with other people at all, but taking this job and having to do this sort of thing is helping me a little (I think) in dealing better with social situations.

I was so terribly inept before and still am, and while I don't have much desire to improve on that, I think I probably should for my sake.

Do differently?

Not very much I guess, might give it a try with a couple of my lesbian friends and that's about it...!

Nothing different~~

My whole life would have been different and probably happier

Many of you are going to find this insulting. It's not my purpose to attack any individuals or groups.

Several posts from one or more of the pages in this thread are clearly Transsexuals in denial. Androgyne is about the merging, blending, or nullification of gender traits. Not what basically amounts to transsexuality light.  If you are a androgyne and were born in a male or a female body, it wouldn't matter. Why? Because Androgyne is all about reaching the middle. Several androgynes in this thread got it exactly right. While others said if they got a body of the other gender they would focus on gender binary typical roles for that gender.

This is the part some may find insulting but again that isn't my intention.

There is no stigma attached to transsexuality other than what YOU allow to be. Any stigma is all in your mind. So if you are a transsexual hiding in Androgyne clothing looking for an easy way out, it's time to look at come out of the androgynous closet, and be what, and most importantly who you really are!

The funny thing is while I don't identify in that manner, this same statement could be aimed directly at me as well.

Oh I am female and as such dress in my gender role on a daily basis but I do it in an androgynous manner. I aim for the middle so that those who don't know I am a transsexual won't figure it out. Oh the clues are there if you look, including the breasts which HRT blessed me with, but most people don't look beyond the surface.  I have many reasons. I know of at least two GLBT murders in my community since 1990. I don't want any confrontations, I just want to blend in. Sure friends and family know but other than that I keep to my self. Basically what I am saying is don't get too upset, because I am standing right there in with those I am castigating.

I have no issue with your opinion, Susan.

I've always figured that for some people, the androgyne place is a part of the trip they haven't yet begun to understand.

Quote from: Susan on February 22, 2009, 12:23:05 PM
This is the part some may find insulting but again that isn't my intention.

There is no stigma attached to transsexuality other than what YOU allow to be. Any stigma is all in your mind. So if you are a transsexual hiding in Androgyne clothing looking for an easy way out, it's time to look at come out of the androgynous closet, and be what, and most importantly who you really are!

Susan,

I didn't find anything you said insulting. In my own journey of 16 years since I came to the realization of being transgender, I've done considerable soul searching to make sure that I'm not simply in denial about being TS in identifying as androgyne.

Where I currently find myself to be is that I'm most likely TS, however decided not to do HRT, etc. While I'm not comfortable as male, I'm also not far enough on the spectrum to feel that I'm a woman. I'm somewhere in between, maybe around 60% female-40% male. I also accept that my feelings are subject to change and if they do, I'd act accordingly.

Z

I do think there will be some transexuals here. Now Androgyne may be about merging and blending but in practice there are all sorts. My experience has been that there is not one way of being non-binary. Perhaps some of us are gender queer women in male bodies, Jillgirl men in a female boday, psychologicaly androgynous in terms of gender but physically transexual, ftm cross dressers in a male body, androgynous mid-dressers. There are a wide range of ways of being.  I think a lot of what we are seeing here is people saying that if they were the oposite sex they would more permissive for them to do things they always wanted to do or try. But I think what they would find is some of the things they like to do now are no longer as permissive.

I just plain don't have the funds for srs yet. So I stay in the middle until I can afford my place of comfort.

Quote from: Virginia Marie on February 22, 2009, 03:57:45 PM
I just plain don't have the funds for srs yet. So I stay in the middle until I can afford my place of comfort.

So what makes you identify as an andrgogyne?

The way I see myself. The comments from others regarding my Androgynous appearance. I'm actually still rather undecided as to if I will ever actually get srs. I've only recently even thought about it. I'm still in the learning and deciding stages of things. I don't claim to be an expert like some I've noticed around here

I'd probably embrace androgyny more enthusiastically if I was female bodied.. Wearing jeans and sweatshirts and sneakers most days, but showing off my feminine side when I wanted to (makeup, hair done, dresses, etc)... Just look at Diane Keaton in Annie Hall.. she wore boy clothes most of that movie and was still radiantly beautiful..

I've always been very attracted to the smart, geeky tomboy type of woman.. maybe it's because that's who I want to be :)

I've always thought of androgyne as my 'gender inside' rather than my expression. Doesn't matter how you dress it up you are still you. A woman is still a woman even if they look like a man and like to do manly things e.g. Susan is still a woman despite the androgynous role they play.

In my view Androgyne, as my genderqueer non-binary gender, is on par with being Male or Female. 'Androgyne' as an expression or role is something different.

How many of you would still call yourselves androgyne if you looked and acted and dressed like a boy or a girl 100% of the time? I would. If not then you're probably an 'androgyne' by expression or role rather than internal gender.  I think this is a really important distinction to make.

Something that probably muddies the waters is dyphoria. The desire/craving/pain for a body that you don't have. I don't think there is a clear middle you can point at and say 'that is androgyne'. So birth sex makes a big difference depending on what your target is. For many it is a fuzzy target anyway. For some it will be closer than others. Your target might be closer to the other sex so changing sex would be better than what you currently have. Then there will be those that want the body of the opposite sex but still identify as an androgyne in terms of their internal identity. They could be transexuals, they could also be androgynes at the same time can't they?

Quote from: Nicky on February 22, 2009, 06:33:20 PM
I've always thought of androgyne as my 'gender inside' rather than my expression.

That's how I see it. Identifying as androgyne has nothing to do with my external expression. Although it does inform how I might wish to express it.

Quote
Something that probably muddies the waters is dyphoria. The desire/craving/pain for a body that you don't have. I don't think there is a clear middle you can point at and say 'that is androgyne'. So birth sex makes a big difference depending on what your target is. For some it will be closer than others. For many it is a fuzzy target anyway. Then there will be those that want the body of the opposite sex but still identify as an androgyne in terms of their internal identity. They could be transexuals, they can also be androgynes can't they?

Yes, I believe that one can be both. I've thought of doing HRT to bring my body more in sync with my internal sense of who I am, but still don't feel myself to be either gender.

Z

This thread is food for thought for me.. because I rarely, if ever think "I AM a woman.." Sometimes I think that I somehow SHOULD have been a woman from birth, or that I'd like to be perceived as and related to as a woman, or that I'd like to look and feel like a woman.... but that 100%, steadfast, know in my bones that I AM A WOMAN feeling? I've never had that.

I wonder what that means, if anything? I guess right now I'm most comfortable thinking of myself as trans, but in a permanent rather than transitory sense...

Yeah, I don't think things are all that clear cut as people think they are.

I have a theory that maybe a lot of woman and men are born with a body that matches close enough to their internal need, the role and expression open to them in society give them enough breathing space, that they never have reason to question their gender/expression/behaviour. But if given the freedom they would be more than they are and might even wonder what the hell a man or woman is anyway. Imagine, for example, the freedom people have to dress up at heloween was all year round. The world would be a much different place.

I'm not saying that men and woman don't exist, because I definitly think they do and are likely to be the majority, more that the boundaries could be a lot fuzzier than people think. Who knows. We might just happen to be on the fringes mtfbuckeye. I think things will become clearer as you go along.

I think that there wouldn't be too many changes if I could switch bodies right now (other than looking a lot better than I do now when dressing up). I'd probably the  advantages of being a woman and then go back to being same old me.

QuoteI wonder what that means, if anything?

To me, that seems entirely normal. There are days where I feel normal, days where I wish I was different and usually the days between where I think "WHAT THE HECK AM I". I suppose that only means we're consiously dealing with our troubled insides.

For me the central point of the question in this topic is wether I'd be happier in a female body or not. And on that question, the answer is simple. No, this body of mine, although not perfect gives me all the freedoms that i need.

Quote from: mtfbuckeye on February 22, 2009, 07:24:00 PM
but that 100%, steadfast, know in my bones that I AM A WOMAN feeling? I've never had that.

Ya hit the nail on the head on that one for me.  Can't tell you how many times I've looked in the mirror and wished I were a woman instead of just trying to look more like one, but deep inside I know that I'm not.  Wished I were a man, too, but even after 52 years of practice I still haven't gotten that one right either.


I agree with you, Nicky, on your thoughts about Androgyny.  To my way of thinking, Androgyne is just an umbrella term for those who don't identify their gender as male or female at the current time.  If one were to take a look back through the archives of the Androgyne section of this forum, there have been many discussions of differing "types" of androgynes, but the one thing we had in common was that none of us identified as female or male. 

As far as looking androgynous, that is a presentation and could be chosen by anyone, regardless of their true gender.  I have seen androgynous folks who identified as both male and female, gay and straight.  Heck, I've even met a few that didn't even realize they were presenting that way.  In my mind, I don't think of someone who looks androgynous to be any more likely to truly be an androgyne than them identifying as a male or female. 

....L

I think this is more of an ideal world situation thread than "I want the other body" sort of thread.  If my life and experience would be exactly the same, then I think a male body would be more comfortable.  That doesn't make me ftm, though.  I do realize that realistically, if I were male bodied, I probably would have been pressured from the opposite angle (although...there were a lot of mixed signals when I was a kid...).  I agree that there could be some transexuals in denial on here, but I don't know that we could make that argument just based on this thread.  :-\

Like others have said, I don't think being in the opposite would really change anything for me.  But saying that, I think if I were born in a male body, I would probably feel more comfortable flirting with girls....

Quote from: Susan on February 22, 2009, 12:23:05 PM
Many of you are going to find this insulting. It's not my purpose to attack any individuals or groups.

Several posts from one or more of the pages in this thread are clearly Transsexuals in denial. Androgyne is about the merging, blending, or nullification of gender traits. Not what basically amounts to transsexuality light.  If you are a androgyne and were born in a male or a female body, it wouldn't matter. Why? Because Androgyne is all about reaching the middle. Several androgynes in this thread got it exactly right. While others said if they got a body of the other gender they would focus on gender binary typical roles for that gender.

This is the part some may find insulting but again that isn't my intention.

There is no stigma attached to transsexuality other than what YOU allow to be. Any stigma is all in your mind. So if you are a transsexual hiding in Androgyne clothing looking for an easy way out, it's time to look at come out of the androgynous closet, and be what, and most importantly who you really are!

The funny thing is while I don't identify in that manner, this same statement could be aimed directly at me as well.

Oh I am female and as such dress in my gender role on a daily basis but I do it in an androgynous manner. I aim for the middle so that those who don't know I am a transsexual won't figure it out. Oh the clues are there if you look, including the breasts which HRT blessed me with, but most people don't look beyond the surface.  I have many reasons. I know of at least two GLBT murders in my community since 1990. I don't want any confrontations, I just want to blend in. Sure friends and family know but other than that I keep to my self. Basically what I am saying is don't get too upset, because I am standing right there in with those I am castigating.

That's a little bit limiting surely?

Men and women like to play the androgynous role, saying it's denial is a little bit judgmental in my personal opinion.

I'm a woman, but I'm an androgynous one because I choose to be so not because I'm denying anything. I have GG Lesbian friends who are the same, what's the difference? It's how I am and how I'm happy, and lastly how people like me. In my heart of hearts I don't consider this denial :)

The androgyne label is rather slippery in many ways because it can apply to many kinds of people/situations. I know that susan has her definition and it applies to this board and that's ok.

For me personally it's a feeling of being in the middle between the binaries, about 60% male and 40% female.

I can definitely see where a mtf or a ftm person might land in the androgyne spot for awhile as they make decisions about their own future. Its a imperfect process that many of us are going thru, and if you feel like an androgyne then so be it, and welcome to the party. There is no one here that is going to argue with you, and all are welcome.

I am only being androgyne until they invent a surgery so I can become the wolf I know I am inside.

No, I'm joking. I actually am an angel with wings and all that.

I identify as an androgynous male, but I'm not terribly certain I am not simply androgyne.  So with that in mind...

1) If I am in fact an androgynous male given a female body, I'd grow up thinking I was a boy and be emotionally horrified with my body.  I'd be unhappy with dolls, poetry, gossip, and glitter, simply because that's simply because I don't take an interest in those things now.  I wouldn't care for skirts and dresses (and definitely not the frilly ones), but I would prefer them to what boys/men wear for special occasions (unless I get into or am getting "the grass is greener on the other side" syndrome).  I'd grow out my nails a bit, but it'd be out of laziness rather than a deliberate effort.  I'd probably still get heavily into math (in spite of society's efforts to make me afraid of it), but I doubt I'd end up playing the baritone in band (since I didn't take much control of that decision, I probably would have been channeled into a different direction).

When I eventually become an adult, I'd probably get hormones and maybe get a reduction if my boobs were too big (if they were small, I probably wouldn't care).  And I'd probably still want to wear dresses and skirts for special occasions, confusing the heck out of everyone I knew.  But I'd probably still develop a casual/moderate interest in sports as an adult, still play video games, and be attracted to women, so many guys wouldn't mind.

2) If I am in fact a genderless androgyne, pretty much everything would work out the same as above, except I wouldn't have body integrity issues.  Odds are I wouldn't pick up on the fact that I was an androgyne (and would identify as female), because I'd probably get into more confrontations over academic/employment access than the way I dress, and those confrontations would be much more clearly a social dysfunction.  Of course, the stigma of men in dresses is likewise the fault of society's discrimination rather than the individuals breaking the social norms, but this idea is far less understood than discrimination regarding merit and access against women (which in turn is far less accepted than it should be).

I think again this thread has fallen apart because of the similarities of the word androgyne and androgynous.

Wanting to look androgynous doesn't make you an androgyne...it can't, because a look is not an identity. A look may resemble an identity, but to look something is not to be it.  I concede that probably all androgynes would want to look more androgynous...but that's not where the identity lies.

(Personally I find that an androgynous look doesn't even look like a combination of male/female or neither. You see an 'androgynous' person and you can tell which they are. It seems to me to be just a unisex fashion statement, but there we are).

I think when loads of attention is concentrated on the 'look' of androgyny then people feel confused, distressed and worried. People who are psychologically neither male or female (or both) feel they can't live up to the ideal of what an androgyne is supposed to do or supposed to be.

But there is no supposed about it, you say to yourself, am I a male...no....Am I a female....No. Bosh! Androgyne. (Or whatever terms you prefer). And that is it.



- What would I do in a differently sexed body? Whatever felt right at the time. But what I do would be reacted to and interpreted differently if I were female rather than male bodied.

As a male I am expected to seek control and independence...so when I seek co-operation and relience I am seen as weak...if I were female, this would be more socially acceptable.

However if I were female and expected to seek co-operation and reliance when I asserted my independence I would be seen as bossy and controlling ...and I would thinking that if I were male it would be more socially acceptable.

Of course there is more lee-way for a woman to seek independence than for a man to seek dependence, so I reckon I would be freer in a women's body. Also if I were pretty I could get away with loads of stuff (a handsome male is only a threat).

But I'm not, so I'll enjoy what I can.

Quote from: Pica Pica on February 24, 2009, 08:29:50 AM
I think again this thread has fallen apart because of the similarities of the word androgyne and androgynous.

Wanting to look androgynous doesn't make you an androgyne...it can't, because a look is not an identity. A look may resemble an identity, but to look something is not to be it.  I concede that probably all androgynes would want to look more androgynous...but that's not where the identity lies.

Harrumph!  Harrumph!

Quote from: Jaimey on February 23, 2009, 02:24:10 AM
I think this is more of an ideal world situation thread than "I want the other body" sort of thread. 

This brings back the old discussion of wanting SRS, but not to go Opposite but rather to make one Intersexed---both male and female at the same time.  Now that would be the perfect surgery for an Androgyne...too bad the parts are made from the same limited material.

....L

P.S.  Please no jokes about never leaving the house...sometimes we have to be above such petty comments.

I guess I can be a hurrumpher, it can be good to hurrumph.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffilipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F05%2Fsamuel_johnson_by_joshua_reynolds.jpg&hash=ac66564de047677d5689c9de3e357194aa155d9f)

Quote from: Susan on February 22, 2009, 12:23:05 PM
Many of you are going to find this insulting. It's not my purpose to attack any individuals or groups.

If this is the way you are when you insult people, fire away. :)

Quote
Several posts from one or more of the pages in this thread are clearly Transsexuals in denial. Androgyne is about the merging, blending, or nullification of gender traits. Not what basically amounts to transsexuality light.  If you are a androgyne and were born in a male or a female body, it wouldn't matter. Why? Because Androgyne is all about reaching the middle.

I consider myself a transsexual in remission (the days of being in denial are in the past), but the way I see it this isn't incompatible with being androgyne. Gender is a many-splendoured thing, and there are lots of ways to blend the gender traits.

I grew up thinking that I was a boy -- the physical evidence was quite clearly there -- but unable to learn to even tolerate many of the things boys were supposed to enjoy. As a direct result of my gender conflict  I drifted to activities, interests and modes of thought that are not typically male but not typically female either, and by now this is something that no medical treatment of the underlying transsexuality could change. Now, if I had been born either fully a boy or fully a girl I would likely have grown into a somewhat more traditional role, but since I didn't I had to find a middle ground. And I like it there.

One of the interesting experiments I've had with my gender in the past few months started late last autumn when I was asked to do some work-related stuff in Second Life. Now, my initial plan was to be completely gender-fluid, since it's possible to choose one's gender freely and change it at will. I stayed 'physically' androgyne for about two weeks, before settling for a female body. It was quite a surprise to find how important it was to have my avatar be anatomically correct, considering that I have no intention whatsoever to show those anatomically correct details to anyone. On the other hand, as a person I'm still the same -- the main difference in my behaviour is the way I have much more options to dress up when the need arises. Funny thing, though: I've always hated suits, but in that environment, with a female body, it's entirely all right.

Perhaps it was pretty close to the truth when I've half-joked about being a genderqueer woman in a male body.

  Nfr

My male self is kind of greedy and money oriented. Also of questionable moral values. So I'd probably be a hooker. Genevieve

Quote from: Seshatneferw on February 24, 2009, 04:16:22 PM
Now, my initial plan was to be completely gender-fluid, since it's possible to choose one's gender freely and change it at will. I stayed 'physically' androgyne for about two weeks, before settling for a female body.

Nfr,

I am assuming that you are talking about one's gender presentation, and not their true gender-nature itself.  A person can choose their presentation (with all its benefits and penalties), but you are the gender you were born to be and there is isn't much choice in that matter.

I only thought I might clear that up in case someone is reading and gets confused.  If I am the one confused, please let me know...sadly, confusion happens.

....L

laurry, I was referrring to the male attitude in a female body. Genevieve

Quote from: Laurry on February 24, 2009, 09:50:45 PM
I am assuming that you are talking about one's gender presentation, and not their true gender-nature itself.  A person can choose their presentation (with all its benefits and penalties), but you are the gender you were born to be and there is isn't much choice in that matter.

Well, yes, although in the context of virtual worlds 'presentation' covers a bit more ground than in the real world -- most obviously, over here physical sex is separate from gender presentation, but is it really in an environment where one can change the physical appearance at will? I'm not sure it is, but I'm not sure it isn't either.

My behaviour hasn't changed all that much, so in that sense this experience has strengthened my belief that on this level I'm somewhere between the two main genders. In terms of gender presentation I'm a bit more feminine when I have a (virtual) female body, but that too is largely simply adapting to the cultural expectations. The only aspect where I do have a somewhat firmer preference than I thought is my body: contrary to what I thought, when given complete freedom I'd stick almost exclusively to a female one.

  Nfr