Susan's Place Transgender Resources

My dream guitar would be a double-neck: classical/nylon strings on one neck and 12-string dreadnought on the other. As far as pickups, just transducers under the saddles. Then, a three-way selector that would be able to limit the output to just one neck or the other, or both at the same time.

My question is, would it be cheaper to get a guitar synth than to try to have such a thing built? Or, if it would be better to have the custom thing built, does anyone have any recommendations for custom builders, preferably in California (even more preferably in the greater SF Bay Area).

would it be cheaper to get a guitar synth than to try to have such a thing built

I would think by almost the cost of a house.  I've never seen a dual neck acoustic, largely because the stress factor that two necks would create.  And a dual neck Gibson electric has a retail of 4-5 thousand, and that's for something that is manufactured, not custom. 

I have seen multi neck custom acoustics before. But I don't know who you would go to to have one built. And I suspect it would cost a small fortune.

Acoustic modeling or a guitar synth would be a less expensive option. But it would not replace a true acoustic instrument. Most acoustic modeling circuits that I've tried fall short of a good acoustic sound. I'm not sure they could do classical well. But then again, I've only tried the cheap stuff.

Gibson tried to build the dual acoustic version before the electric but they had problems both with keeping the tuning true, but also I understand that the neck/body had a tendency to bow badly, so they gave up.

Hmmm...  I'd assume that someone like Ovation would have the best luck in constructing something like that out of a composite material, not wood. 

I remember when Ovation was the acoustic choice because of the way it sounded miked.  But Ovations had bad bowing problems and now mostly I see Taylors.

Yep. i've seen the same.  Lots of Ovations in studios, though.

I've only seen the Ovations used live, and like I said, that was some time ago, like the 80s.  In the studio where you can mike without amplification you could go for more vintage instrument and get a much warmer sound for recording.  Or for something that offers greater ease of playing.  So, where Jimmy Page is famous for using the Gibson LP and Marshal stacks in concert a lot of the studio stuff was done using a Tele, including the famous one-take run on Stairway to Heaven.

It's not my job to choose instrumentation, it's my job to make it sound the best that it can. 

Guitar synth? Like that fender vg guitar or the Gibson robot guitar? Or like one of those key-tars? which could be made nifty if one was plugged into a sampler based vst instrument using a guitar-bass-etc. patch. or a Z-tar  http://www.starrlabs.com/ (http://www.starrlabs.com/)

I wasn't thinking of a double-neck acoustic. I was thinking of a solid-body guitar, but with "acoustic" guitar strings, bridges, saddles, and pickups.

My goal is NOT to replicate acoustic guitar tones, but to have a guitar with unique (perhaps "odd" is a better word) sounds.

key-tars - the gayest instrument ever, they rank right up there with ego risers on the monitors and confetti cannons.

My goal is NOT to replicate acoustic guitar tones, but to have a guitar with unique (perhaps "odd" is a better word) sounds.

Use ProTools and emulators like Digitechs and an array of pedals. That seems to be what the big dogs do.  I suppose for home playing with yourself stuff custom equipment is good, but for most commercial applications the rule is "nothing you can't replace in Cleaveland on a Sunday night."

Quote from: tekla on February 06, 2009, 10:16:37 AM
Use ProTools and emulators like Digitechs and an array of pedals. That seems to be what the big dogs do.  I suppose for home playing with yourself stuff custom equipment is good, but for most commercial applications the rule is "nothing you can't replace in Cleaveland on a Sunday night."

Thanks, Tekla.

Actually, what you really need its a tech/engineer.  There are a lot of guys (and they tend to be guys, chicks play keys or bass) who are out playing with someone sitting/standing in the wings like the real wizard of oz manipulating the effects, the send, the attack, the delay, the reverb and all that - it don't matter much, after all, its not like the guy on stage can hear what is being sent into the house. 

I use a cheep-O digitech and I love it.  I can make my little crate (single 10 inch) and crappy but very pretty Korean guitar sound like shread city if I set it right. I use the first series, and most basic one at that, but they have got a lot better and can do a lot now, I'm thinking something like this, not cheap, but a hella cheeper than a custom instrument by thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars.
http://www.digitech.com/products/Multi-Effects/RP355.php (http://www.digitech.com/products/Multi-Effects/RP355.php)

Now, if you are playing/recording on a Pro level (meaning your hoping to sell lots of tickets or CDs), you want all the real pedals, they have a much faster slew rate (have I lost you yet?) and you will go to SIR (Studio Instrument Rental) and get the real equipment, because a Marshall Stack does not sound like a Fender Twin, but otherwise, the difference is minor in your music room.

I had been looking at the RP250, actually. That, and a Squire Tele or Strat and maybe a Roland Cube 25.

The Roland tends to be more of a keyboard amp for some reason, if I was going with a Fender guitar - depending on what I was inflicting on people, I'd go with a Fender Dual, or Showman, or a Mesa Boogie setup, but that's just me.

When I was a kid, I wanted a Roland JC-120. I loved the sound King Crimson had in their 1980's configuration, so that was the basis of my amp choice. I ended up with a Peavey Bandit 65.

These days, a 65-watt amp is far more than I need. I'm thinking something in the 30-watt range with reverb would be good.

Get thee to guitar center, I love my Crate, but there are a lot of really good small amps out there now, and those big huge Marshall Stacks that your favorite headbangers use?  Mostly dummies with an LED to make them look like they are on.

And you're going to hate me for this - but at least you'll hate me for the right reasons, but a bunch of years ago Meyer's was testing out their new concert array that would become the Milo System.  King Crimson was booked that night and they asked if Mr. Fripp would test the system and tell them what he thought.  So Fripp wanted the entire hall cleared, which was my responsibility, and I said "Gee, I have to go up in the balcony and fix the seats that the headbangers broke last night before we open" and so the ever so polite Mr. Fripp said "OK, you and no one else."  For the next hour and 45 minutes he sat there playing while I was fixing seats.  One of the most amazing times in my life.  Almost makes up for all the crappy bands I've worked for. 

Quote from: tekla on February 06, 2009, 12:12:13 PM
Get thee to guitar center, I love my Crate, but there are a lot of really good small amps out there now, and those big huge Marshall Stacks that your favorite headbangers use?  Mostly dummies with an LED to make them look like they are on.

And you're going to hate me for this - but at least you'll hate me for the right reasons, but a bunch of years ago Meyer's was testing out their new concert array that would become the Milo System.  King Crimson was booked that night and they asked if Mr. Fripp would test the system and tell them what he thought.  So Fripp wanted the entire hall cleared, which was my responsibility, and I said "Gee, I have to go up in the balcony and fix the seats that the headbangers broke last night before we open" and so the ever so polite Mr. Fripp said "OK, you and no one else."  For the next hour and 45 minutes he sat there playing while I was fixing seats.  One of the most amazing times in my life.  Almost makes up for all the crappy bands I've worked for.

Some of Fripp's work is difficult to listen to. I know die-hard King Crimson fans who call their stuff "unlistenable crap." But, that does not mean by any stretch that the talent is not there.

Damn, would I loved to have been a fly on the wall then.

Yeah he was doing the entire fripptronics catalog.  And I like some of the stuff like Islands, and Starless and Bible Black.  When you consider the entire catalog, including the League of Crafty Guitars, his career has been pretty amazing. 

Quote from: tekla on February 06, 2009, 01:31:48 PM
Yeah he was doing the entire fripptronics catalog.  And I like some of the stuff like Islands, and Starless and Bible Black.  When you consider the entire catalog, including the League of Crafty Guitars, his career has been pretty amazing.

Very true.

I guess one of the big problems with discover King Crimson when I was 12 is that it made quite an impression on me. The fact that it was possible to coax those sounds out of guitars just amazes me. Then, there's the technical ability. Amazing indeed.

The fact that it was possible to coax those sounds out of guitars just amazes me

That's where he crosses the line between talent with practice, and art.

Quote from: tekla on February 06, 2009, 02:03:47 PM
The fact that it was possible to coax those sounds out of guitars just amazes me

That's where he crosses the line between talent with practice, and art.

Again, very true.

Any neck with 12 strings is tough to keep true long term.  I had a friend who had a Carvin like this:

http://www.carvinmuseum.com/decade/images/93-doublenecks.html (http://www.carvinmuseum.com/decade/images/93-doublenecks.html)

It was a great instrument, though some people think otherwise.  From what I can tell, they do still make them special order, and might be able to get you somethink like what you want.

I assume from what you are saying that you are looking for a 12 string acoustic (Dreadnought) sound.  A guy in my band uses a Digitech pedal for an acoustic sound with his Les Paul for one song where the switch happens fast from electric to acoustic.    It actually sounds pretty decent.  I am not terribly impressed with those guitar synths.  Get individual pedals that do just what you want. 

I have an old RP-7 that has a 12 string setting.  I played my Martin 6 string through it and it did sound like 12 strings and sounded awesome.  You can get one of those on ebay very reasonable.   Plus it will do a lot more.   There is one on there right now, in fact.

I think you might do best getting a pedal board and building your own pallet of custom sounds for what you want to do.  For my strat I use a board with a bunch of pedals then a Line 6 Pod X3 live.  Sort of the belt and suspenders approach, but I sound how I want.

What kind of a sound are you looking for in your amp?  I can't really tell.

Best of luck!

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

I would think that if you're going to be driving the signal though all sorts of F/X you would want the most natural sounding amp, perhaps the SWR California Blonde II, which a lot of the pros use and less than half the price of a Genz Benz Shenandoah Series Shen Pro LT.

The pedal-board approach is one I've thought of before. It's beginning to sound like a better idea more and more, after reading the various replies here.

As far as the amp goes, I'm not entirely sure. I guess I'd like the most flexible set up possible. A pipe organ has a wide array of stops to produce a wide array of sounds. I guess that's what I'm hoping to achieve: anything from a "true" guitar sound to something "out there."

Those are great amps, no question.  The one I have been playing around with is this one:
http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Peavey-Ecoustic-112-EFX-Acoustic-Combo?sku=481373 (http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Peavey-Ecoustic-112-EFX-Acoustic-Combo?sku=481373)
It is one cool amp, and a nice clean sound.

Oh and another thing.....please do not buy a Squire if you are going to run it through nice equipment.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on February 06, 2009, 04:40:10 PM
please do not buy a Squire if you are going to run it through nice equipment.

OK, so what affordable make would you suggest?

There's a good second hand instrument store here in San Mateo, and the Fenders there are regularly priced like Squires elsewhere. The trade-off is, it's hard to predict what will be there when one actually has the $$$ to spend.

The Squire's are made of the wood blocks that were not good enough for the Strats and Teles.  I wouldn't want a Fender that was made after Leo left the company, ie, pre-65.  Once CBS took it over the quality dived.

I had a Peavey Milestone 12 for a while, and I was pretty satisfied with that. But, I bought it when I was 18 and I could just blow $600 on a whim. These days, it would take a while to save that much.

Paul Reed Smith has been putting out some pretty good stuff, at least at the higher end, and I'm sure that Peavey would cost more than 6 bills if you went to buy it back now.

Quote from: tekla on February 06, 2009, 12:12:13 PM
And you're going to hate me for this - but at least you'll hate me for the right reasons, but a bunch of years ago Meyer's was testing out their new concert array that would become the Milo System.  King Crimson was booked that night and they asked if Mr. Fripp would test the system and tell them what he thought.  So Fripp wanted the entire hall cleared, which was my responsibility, and I said "Gee, I have to go up in the balcony and fix the seats that the headbangers broke last night before we open" and so the ever so polite Mr. Fripp said "OK, you and no one else."  For the next hour and 45 minutes he sat there playing while I was fixing seats.  One of the most amazing times in my life.  Almost makes up for all the crappy bands I've worked for.

Wow, that is being in the right place at the right time!

I heard an impromptu performance of the League of Crafty Guitarists once, the audience sat inside a circle of acoustic guitarists, I was about 3 feet from Fripp. Amazing!

And here's the ultimate multiple neck acoustic guitar

http://www.oddmusic.com/gallery/om23350.html (http://www.oddmusic.com/gallery/om23350.html)
http://www.themomi.org/museum/mfa/electric_guitars/1993_Manzer_Pikasso.html (http://www.themomi.org/museum/mfa/electric_guitars/1993_Manzer_Pikasso.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02dZhhDICzQ#noexternalembed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02dZhhDICzQ#noexternalembed)

Z

League of Crafty Guitarists

Its an amazing concept, have you ever tried those tunings?

I've played around with some alternate tunings, but I usually fall back to standard.

Fripp did the whole LoCG based on the notion that he had a tuning that made playing a whole lot easier.

Its C, G, D, A , E, G (low to high) in case you're interested.

Quote from: tekla on February 06, 2009, 06:53:45 PM
League of Crafty Guitarists

Its an amazing concept, have you ever tried those tunings?

I use a lot of open tunings, but haven't ever tried the Crafty tuning. One would have to change a few strings to do it. It's basically fifths though, with a third on top. I play mandolin family instruments and fiddle, I find tuning in fifths very intuitive, makes more sens than standard guitar tuning. But there's things you can do on guitar that wouldn't work in the other tunings.

Z

How about those babics guitars?  http://www.hudsonvalleyguitars.com/shop/cart.php (http://www.hudsonvalleyguitars.com/shop/cart.php)

Virginia is lazy and doesn't like to tune up. I guess that's why she tends to have 5-7 guitars around

Danny Zagar (of Zagar and Evans, In the Year 2525) makes some good ones too, I've played them and they are EZ to play, as he says

http://www.zagerguitar.com/index.php?event=public.store.guitars.list (http://www.zagerguitar.com/index.php?event=public.store.guitars.list)

And as Jerry Garcia once said during the constant and almost never ending tuning breaks (he did his own tuning on stage) "We tune because we care."

Guitars that are virtually unavailable are always appealing

And hey, I'll guitar tech for you, even cut you a deal, $35 an hour, 8 hour minimum, with union health and welfare payments, per diem and tour bus slot. I have a rider too, but we'll discuss that later.

Quote from: tekla on February 07, 2009, 12:15:39 AM
And hey, I'll guitar tech for you, even cut you a deal, $35 an hour, 8 hour minimum, with union health and welfare payments, per diem and tour bus slot. I have a rider too, but we'll discuss that later.

The heck w playing gigs, where do I sign up for tech gig?  ;) :laugh:

Z

The heck w playing gigs, where do I sign up for tech gig?

Back in the day everyone wanted to be IN the band not doing the lights or loading the van, everyone wanted to be in the play, not painting the sets or focusing the lights.

Silly me, thinking that doing the lighting (what I started out with) and setting up the band, and doing the sound, loading the van, eventually the truck, eventually the semi - along with building stuff, painting stuff, fixing stuff,  - I'm the queen of all soldering irons, and the queen bitch painter too - getting there early to set up tables and chairs, staying late to put away the tables and chairs, and of course, sweeping the stage would lead somewhere.  I did it in the beginning (early 70s) largely because I got ten dollars, a tee-shirt, all the beer I could drink and I could dress as close to a girl as I wanted, and oh yeah, meet some pretty twisted girls who were looking for something different. 

Yea Tekla's right. Alot of the big successful ones got their start just by actually being there.

Right place, right time, right sound, or wrong night, wrong fight, wrong ->-bleeped-<-ing part of town, the little differences.