Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Looking over a list on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyne saw a few familiar faces.

What do you think. We can expand the list also.

Disclaimer:
I will let you judge for yourself which of these is androgynous looking, and which might have psychological androgyne gender identity. Or who might not even belong on this list. Or who else might belong on this list.

Acting
Jaye Davidson from crying game/stargate
Grace Jones
Tilda Swinton scheming angel Gabriel in Constantine, White Witch Jadis, in the film version of The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, title role in Orlando
Rodrigo Santoro as Xerxes in 300
Daniela Sea  L-word NEW

Artist
Claude Cahun, born  Lucy Schwob a French photographer and writer. Often played with the concepts of gender and sexuality.NEW

Author
Quentin Crisp was an English writer, artist's model, actor and raconteur known for hir memorable and insightful witticisms.
George Sand the pseudonym of the French novelist and feminist Amantine-Lucile-Aurore Dupin, later Baroness Dudevant
Susan Powter "stop the insanity"
Kate Bornstein is an author, playwright and performance artist. Gender Outlaw, Nearly Roadkill (coauthored with Caitlin Sullivan) and My Gender Workbook.NEW
Ricki Wilchins The author of Read My Lips, GenderQueer, and Queer Theory/Gender Theory.NEW
B.C. Holmes 60/40 Computer Programmer , Fiction writing , and theory/commentary writer.NEW

Old West Frontiersperson
Martha Jane Canary-Burke, better known as Calamity Jane NEW

Television
Anne Robinson- Host of "The Weakest Link"
Ellen Degeneres- Host of "Ellen" and Comedian

Politician
Hermann Göring

Philosopher
Sandra Bem NEW
Aynn Rand NEW


Music
David Bowie
Boy George
Davey Havok Lead singer of AFI
Michael Jackson
Annie Lennox
Marilyn Manson
Shirley Ann Manson lead singer of Garbage
Robert Smith lead singer of the Cure
k.d. lang
Prince
Pete Burns lead singer of Dead or Alive
Brian Molko lead singer of Placebo
Patti Smith
Marc Bolan, lead singer of T.Rex
Ola Salo, lead singer of The Ark
Venus Grandell, lead singer of the Minneapolis dark glam band,
     All the Pretty Horses.NEW


Japanese Androgynes
Mana from Malice Mizer
Izam of Shazna
Shinya of Dir en grey
Toshiya of Dir en grey
Gackt of Malice Mizer
Yoshiki of X japan
Vox of Kaggra

It's quite an interesting list. I really love the picture of Annie Lennox. She lets her body be the point and her clothes become the counterpoint. That's what I'm trying to do, male body with female clothes. Which is why I like to skip the breastforms and makeup but let my hair grow.

I can see that in my mind working great.

Since making this list I have really been taken by AFI. I listened to many of their songs and really like it. Something I havent listened to before. I like their mixture of styles. From almost savage garden style to the cure/dead or alive style to screaming goth style. Thats probably 2 more that should be on the list, cure and dead or alive.

Add one for the count: Brian Molko from Placebo

Brian identifies as an androgyne openly.

I always liked Patti Smith's androgynous expression.

z

Izam of Shazna

Shinya of Dir en grey

Toshiya of Dir en grey

Gackt of Malice Mizer

Yoshiki of X japan

I could go on and on, but I won't.

Google Images is your friend.

Yeah Mana is smoken, also check Moi dix mois(Mana's new band)

Oh yeah the lead vox for Kagrra, not bad.

Yeah so its a bit japanese, sue me.

Added the suggestions to the top list. Put japanese ones together for now because I wanted to make a topic talking about japanese culture, and androgynous right now also. Will put a link to it here when I do it, since I think some of the info is pretty cool.

Ok just finished the post at https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,6637.0.html called "Japanese Androgynous".

Marc Bolan, lead singer of T.Rex
Ola Salo, lead singer of The Ark

Ok added those two , and then sort of categorized them all into acting, music, author, and japanese

Feel free to add more suggestions.

Hermann Göring

added a few more names

Quote from: Kate Alice on October 24, 2006, 02:06:00 AM
Hermann Göring

Messed up, but true.

I think ayn rand?

Calamity Jane (Martha Jane Cannary)
Gertrude stein & alice B. Toklas?  - I'm uncertain. I saw some androgynous pictures, but don't know enough about them.


Also, I'm not sure if I'm confusing androgynes with cross-dressers.
I'm going to find more.

I suspect Calamity Jane was a pre-op FtM where 'pre-op' means, 'before anybody invented any kind of medical intervention for transsexuals'. I think the same of George Sand, though Sand did dress as a woman fairly regularly.

Notable missing person from the list: Quentin Crisp.

I don't know if Ayn Rand belongs on that list.  Everything I know about her indicates that she was quite fine with being a woman.

All Androgynes are psychologically androgynous, but not all androgynous-looking people are Androgynes.

Let us not confuse physical androgyny (how one appears) with Androgyne (the gender identity). There is a BIG difference between superficial appearance and gender! Most of the people on the above list do not possess an Androgyne gender identity. Androgynes do not necessarily look androgynous. In fact, it is a rare Androgyne who is also androgynous-looking.

Most of the people on the list above are of androgynous appearance. A great number are simply entertainers. Several are gay or lesbian. Some are transgender. Many, if not most, are Cisgender. Very few have the psychological gender identity of Androgyne.

Hermann Göring was a sharp dresser, known for his extravagant tastes and garish clothing, but there is no evidence of an Androgyne gender identity, nor did he look androgynous. George Sand WAS a woman, a French novelist. Amantine-Lucile-Aurore Dupin took on the pseudonym as a writer. She did appear publicly in menswear though! Quintin Crisp was a gay man and a gay icon of the 1970s, who dressed with much flair, reminiscent of Truman Capote. With the possible exception of Dupin, none of these were Androgynes.

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

People often say that George Sand was a woman who took a male pen name to get published and wore men's clothes because they were 'more practical,' but I believe Sand has been misrepresented by biographers who don't comprehend or care about gender-issues. A number of things written about Sand by Sand's friends indicate that they understood Sand to be a man who had a female body and was sometimes or frequently a woman.

Most his life Quentin Crisp identified himself as a gay man and claimed that his flamboyant feminine-but-not-female dress and makeup was an effort to be easily publically identifed as gay. But he also said that he spent a good bit of his childhood swanning about singing, "Today I am a beautiful princess," and that if he'd tried to 'act like a man' people would not have believed it, and in later years he described himself as "an elderly foreigner of dubious gender."

Who knows. They're both dead so we can't ask them, but seems like they were androgynes to me.

Certainly one cannot know unless they simply state how they feel. All one can do that is guess from appearance, mannerism, behavior, news clippings, or writings. I am not judging who on this list is psychologically androgyne, who is just androgynous dressing, nor trying to guess what they thought. Just listing people with at least some androgynous connection, where they break some sort of gender norm in some way thats somewhat nonpolar gender, weither their gender is real or unknown, or possibly a front doesnt matter to me.

Absolutely even physical androgyny is something that falls under this section as well, although is not for everyone.

Having said that, we can use some more writers added to the list.

Kendall

Quote from: Doc on May 25, 2007, 08:54:58 PM
I suspect Calamity Jane was a pre-op FtM where 'pre-op' means, 'before anybody invented any kind of medical intervention for transsexuals'. I think the same of George Sand, though Sand did dress as a woman fairly regularly.

Notable missing person from the list: Quentin Crisp.

   You know, it would be very interesting to see what some of these larger than life historical people would do if given the opportunities available to them today. I can see Calamity Jane taking T and riding a Harley.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on May 26, 2007, 06:44:36 PM
Certainly one cannot know unless they simply state how they feel. All one can do that is guess from appearance, mannerism, behavior, news clippings, or writings. I am not judging who on this list is psychologically androgyne, who is just androgynous dressing, nor trying to guess what they thought. Just listing people with at least some androgynous connection, where they break some sort of gender norm in some way thats somewhat nonpolar gender, weither their gender is real or unknown, or possibly a front doesnt matter to me.

Absolutely even physical androgyny is something that falls under this section as well, although is not for everyone.

Having said that, we can use some more writers added to the list.

Kendall

I believe it is important to understand that outward androgyny is not equivalent to having an internal Androgyne gender identity. The title of this thread "Some famous androgynes" is erroneous and misleading. To expand it to include "at least some androgynous connection, where they break some sort of gender norm in some way thats somewhat nonpolar gender, weither their gender is real or unknown, or possibly a front" would be a mighty long and bazaar list indeed! Just the number of glam rockers would be extensive!

But we can, and perhaps should, realize the list above can be divided into two groups - People who look androgynous, & People who have (or might have had) an Androgyne gender identity.

I think George Sand and Calamity Jane would qualify as Androgynes.
Annie Lennox is beautifully and naturally androgynous, but not an Androgyne.
Michael Jackson could be thought androgynous, but due only to his multiple surgeries.
I don't believe Hermann Göring or Ayn Rand belong on either list.
And Eddie Izzard, there's an interesting soul! Being a Crossdresser does not make him androgynous or an Androgyne. He is, in his own words, an "executive ->-bleeped-<-" who simply enjoys wearing make-up and clothing which is traditionally perceived in the West as female-only.

-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:

QuoteBut we can, and perhaps should, realize the list above can be divided into two groups - People who look androgynous, & People who have (or might have had) an Androgyne gender identity.

/agree Emerald

You could argue that many butch identified lesbians look androgynous.

The title came from just stating that these are some of the names that I knew from the list on title of the thread on the wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgyne. It started out by picking names of people that I knew and some I had never thought about having any connection. I think its the only such 2 lists of any kind of names on the whole interenet, that I know of. One can find lists of possible CDs, TVs, TSs, lists, but as far as I know, no one has even attempted to think about the people that my have androgyne or androgynous connections (gender, communications, anatomy/physiology, and/or expressions).

I then added some suggestions by others.

Solved that concern of the name by adding (and androgynous persons) to the subject.

And also added a disclaimer.

QuoteDisclaimer:
I will let you judge for yourself which of these is androgynous looking, and which might have psychological androgyne gender identity. Or who might not even belong on this list. Or who else might belong on this list.

Which should help state that the post isnt trying to mislead or present itself as anything factual, rather just a list of people to think about, or not think about.

QuoteMost of the people on the list above are of androgynous appearance. A great number are simply entertainers. Several are gay or lesbian. Some are transgender. Many, if not most, are Cisgender. Very few have the psychological gender identity of Androgyne.

I added this list back in Aug 16 of 2006, back when the forum was 2 pages deep and there were like only 3 to 6 active androgyne members. I can remember it was in the first series of posts  and initial really didnt have that much of a response. Then again there are more people in the forum now, so its good that its getting looked at again and even going through some critic.

I will continue to add name suggestions. I added the newest suggestions.

The NEW was also changed to purple and I updated so that they are on the newest names.

Quote from: Emerald on May 27, 2007, 02:22:44 AM

I believe it is important to understand that outward androgyny is not equivalent to having an internal Androgyne gender identity. The title of this thread "Some famous androgynes" is erroneous and misleading. To expand it to include "at least some androgynous connection, where they break some sort of gender norm in some way thats somewhat nonpolar gender, weither their gender is real or unknown, or possibly a front" would be a mighty long and bazaar list indeed! Just the number of glam rockers would be extensive!

But we can, and perhaps should, realize the list above can be divided into two groups - People who look androgynous, & People who have (or might have had) an Androgyne gender identity.

I think George Sand and Calamity Jane would qualify as Androgynes.
Annie Lennox is beautifully and naturally androgynous, but not an Androgyne.
Michael Jackson could be thought androgynous, but due only to his multiple surgeries.
I don't believe Hermann Göring or Ayn Rand belong on either list.
And Eddie Izzard, there's an interesting soul! Being a Crossdresser does not make him androgynous or an Androgyne. He is, in his own words, an "executive ->-bleeped-<-" who simply enjoys wearing make-up and clothing which is traditionally perceived in the West as female-only.

-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:

    I like Emerald's idea of two lists. One of definite androgynes and one of possible, or suspected, androgynes.   The reason for me to like this is that it will make an excellent learning tool for people like myself who lack the know how to know. By having two separate lists, we can figure out the proper reasoning behind acknowledging a true androgyne.

One of you can do that, I am not going to spend time thinking or organizing such list. So go ahead. Although I listed the names, They were not my original list, and I have no criteria why the names are on there, besides the ones suggested, I added.

One suggestion:
Instead of true and false, it would be better to be based on how much evidence. Like a great deal of evidence, a moderate amount of evidence, little evidence, only one piece of evidence, and no evidence. That prevents one from judging gender, versus judging how much evidence.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on May 28, 2007, 02:25:14 AM
One of you can do that, I am not going to spend time thinking or organizing such list. So go ahead. Although I listed the names, They were not my original list, and I have no criteria why the names are on there, besides the ones suggested, I added.

One suggestion:
Instead of true and false, it would be better to be based on how much evidence. Like a great deal of evidence, a moderate amount of evidence, little evidence, only one piece of evidence, and no evidence. That prevents one from judging gender, versus judging how much evidence.

Would you like fries with that?   ::)

I've often wondered about George Sand, and also hir partner, Frederic Chopin, who was somewhat feminine.

zythyra

Yeah. I am not a Sand scholar, but I believe that George and Frederic were more like two gay guys in love than like a man and a woman in love.

I think it's safe to say Chopin was quite feminine, but it can be hard to say about historical figures much older than he, cause some behavior that might be queer in today's context wasn't always so. George Washington wearing makeup and hugging, kissing, and holding hands with other men wasn't being effeminate or gay. A bunch of eighteenth century sailors sitting on the forecastle tenderly washing and combing one another's long hair weren't indulging in transgendered behavior. It's interesting how certain styles and behaviors have become gendered or changed gender over time.

It makes me wonder why Freddie Mercury is on the list.  He may have worn more feminine looking clothes, but the man wore a mustache.  Eh, maybe I'm being too picky but when I think of androgynous I think of well, someone who could look like they sit smack dab in the middle of the gender spectrum.

Quote from: Mattie on May 28, 2007, 10:11:05 PM
It makes me wonder why Freddie Mercury is on the list. 

I agree Mattie, Freddie Mercury was not androgynous in any way.

Quote from: Mattie on May 28, 2007, 10:11:05 PM
...when I think of androgynous I think of well, someone who could look like they sit smack dab in the middle of the gender spectrum.

Very much agreed! Androgynous-looking people have the pleasing appearance of being of either sex.

Androgyny, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

Now that's just plain silly. Of course Freddie was androgynous in some way. More than one. He wore feminine clothes and make up at times and had a tendancy to swan about. For a while he had a poofy hair-do, and I'm afraid I remember this look a heck of a lot more than I remember the mustache. He had amazing range and could sing like a man or like a woman and chose to sing both ways. As a body of work the music of Queen strikes me as distinctly bi-gendered, exhibiting unmistakably masculine traits in some songs and unmistakably feminine ones in others.

Quote from: Doc on May 29, 2007, 07:29:51 PM
Now that's just plain silly. Of course Freddie was androgynous in some way. More than one. He wore feminine clothes and make up at times and had a tendancy to swan about. For a while he had a poofy hair-do, and I'm afraid I remember this look a heck of a lot more than I remember the mustache. He had amazing range and could sing like a man or like a woman and chose to sing both ways. As a body of work the music of Queen strikes me as distinctly bi-gendered, exhibiting unmistakably masculine traits in some songs and unmistakably feminine ones in others.

An androgynous-looking presentation can be quite similar to a stereotypical gay (or bisexual) presentation. Both are form of self-expression and and to a degree, advertising.

For an entertainer or performer, a gender-bending presentation is frequently part of the show. Many rock stars adopt an androgynous look to promote themselves in the public eye. To my mind, Queen, and their lead singer Freddie Mercury, manifested a camp presentation - not an androgynous one. Perhaps there is subtle difference or no difference to most people?

A man wearing womens clothing is not androgynous-looking, it's crossdressing. In contrast, the wearing of what is a combination of both mens and womens clothing, or unisex clothing, IS androgynous. To put it another way, a man who looks like a woman is not androgynous, but man who looks as if he could simultaneously 'pass' as male and female (or possibly neither) is androgynous.

Freddie Mercury ALWAYS looked like a man to me. More precisely: a gay/bi man, Village People style. To my perception he did not appear female, nor a combination of man/woman, he was always clearly masculine, campy but masculine.

A man wearing both a beard and a dress is not androgynous, it would be properly described as crossdressing or...well... The following link may be of assistance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender->-bleeped-<-
Annie Lennox appears on this page's list because of her intentional periodic female-to-male crossgender presentation. She is also naturally androgynous because of her simultaneously boyish/girlish face. But the two are separate issues.

Androgyny is the middle ground of male/female appearance, a blend that could be either (or neither). The combination and presentation of 'definitely male' and 'definitely female' (beard+dress, breasts+penis, or a pinup girl in military combat attire) are not examples of androgyny, not androgynous. They are examples of male/female contrast. Bi-gender, in the context of sounding like a man while singing one song and sounding like a woman in another song, is not androgynous. On the other hand, a singing voice that simultaneity sounds male and female, or something so in between as to be neither, is androgynous.
Excellent info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

QuoteAndrogyny is the middle ground of male/female appearance, a blend that could be either (or neither). The combination and presentation of 'definitely male' and 'definitely female' (beard+dress, breasts+penis, or a pinup girl in military combat attire) are not examples of androgyny, not androgynous. They are examples of male/female contrast.

True, the pin-up girl in combat dress isn't expressing androgyny. She is giving the message, "I am so strongly feminine that I can wear stong masculine cues and still appear more femme than girls in lace." One might say that the greatest camp icon, Tim Curry as Dr. Frankenfurter, has the apposite (there is no opposite gender) presentation -- so masculine that he looks unmistakably manly in women's undergarments. This presentation may be the goal of most 'camp' presentations.

As it happens, I think that Freddie Mercury, no matter that he always looked quite male, was edging off 'camp' and into an attempt at an androgynous expression. He seemed to be using feminine cues to express femininity, not to contrast his masculinity and emphasize it. And he did sometimes sing in a 'both or neither' sort of way, as well as the distinctly masculine and distinctly feminine voices.

When I think of Annie Lennox, this image comes to mind:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagecache2.allposters.com%2Fimages%2Fpic%2FMMPH%2F262280%7EAnnie-Lennox-Posters.jpg&hash=3d887e5e987b80aba76c0266fa0ac5079df1d717)

Here Annie's hair is neutral -- it's not a masculine short cut, it's just clipped short and actually serves to emphasize her feminine features. Her clothing is strongly masculine. Her makeup is strongly feminine. Her additude seems to express androgyny, but otherwise? This is a bi-gendered presentation. If she'd struck a feminine pose and affected a coquettish expression for the photo, it would result in a presentation similar to that of the pin-up girl in combat fatigues.

I am not sure why a combonation of lipstick and a suit-and-tie should be read as 'androgyny' while a combonation of beard and dress should not. It seems to me that a male in a dress who wears a mustache or allows his stubble to show might be expressing androgyny Lennox-style, or he might be expressing camp masculinity, or he might be expressing femininity without bothering to shave. In an encounter, a good photo or a video-recording one could tell, making accomodations for 'eye of the beholder' readings, but if that person was dead you'd never have a clue.

Likewise for somebody who has breasts and a penis, and wears clothing that displays both cleavage and 'basket'.

I appear androgynous, an effect I achieve by wearing masculine styles that de-emphasize the fact that I am tiny and delicate. I have no visible secondary sex characteristics unless I am naked. I am read as female based solely on bone-structure. Yet even people who have no interest in gender-studies will (sometimes with embarrassment and apology) describe me as 'disconnected from gender' and a 'not-woman.' When I was younger and my skin less weather-beaten, my masculine dress was frequently read as an emphasising contrast to my feminine features and I was often hit on by clueless visually-oriented but detail-blind heterosexual males who mistook my presentation for one similar to that of the pin-up girl in fatigues. It seems to me that male-bodied people who wish to present as androgynes have that problem (as demonstrated by this portion of the thread) but even more so.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reginanera.net%2FFoto%2FFreddieMercury001c.jpg&hash=62c0709852b6ca88c7412fc6ec1b02bf9a45e07a)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reginanera.net%2FFoto%2FFreddieMercury001a.jpg&hash=af1e2bd8aa5ceb640657930677a14f5a795cd51a)

Articles use the word "androgynous" for glam rock appearance of course not meaning androgyny or any kind of gender.

What do people think? Well here are several writers that I found just in a yahoo search of "Freddie Mercury Androgynous" some of the results in 1 through 10, of 1270 results.

Quote"They were so confident that it often came across as being extremely arrogant. There were these four guys who played up the androgynous look with lots of make-up and black nail varnish. A lot of people couldn't handle them. The 'look' in the rock scene was tattered denims and long hair, then here comes Queen dressed in Zandra Rhodes satin threads. It was unheard of."

http://www.brianmay.com/queen/wwry/OZ/freddielives.html

QuoteBy this time, Mercury had adopted an androgynous glam style, replete with velvet and fur clothing, makeup, and black nail polish. A natural showman, he had already developed a flamboyant stage presence. But his campy demeanor and flashy outfits did not seem to raise many eyebrows. "Ambiguous sexuality was par for the course then," recalled one former band-mate.

http://www.gmax.co.za/think/history/2005/050905-freddymercury.html

QuoteAsk almost anyone about Queen's iconic lead singer Freddie Mercury, and you'll get the same response: The man was a god. His piercing vocals, theatrical sensibility and black-and-white checkered unitard are the stuff of legend. Even now, 15 years after his death, no artist has been able to fill Mercury's signature onesie — hypothetically or otherwise — though many have tried.

With a similarly androgynous personality and an even more similar vocal range, U.K. phenom Mika comes close, but also achieves his own personality while adding his name to this seemingly unending list of Freddie admirers.

http://badgerherald.com/artsetc/2007/02/20/pop_phenom_channels_.php

QuoteNot surprisingly Freddie Mercury looked the most photogenic (not to slight the others) with his luxurious hair, makeup, tight costumes, and black-polished nails. Rock captures Mercury as an androgynous sex symbol of this period along with Bowie's Ziggy. Look at Mercury caressing his mike in those action scenes (he was born to be a star)---and Rock puts his stamp on those moments perfectly.

http://www.newbeats.com/killerqueen.html

I just heard of this person:  Antony Hegarty of Antony and the Johnsons

   This is a quote from wikipedia.org

QuoteTheir early live shows were often opened by Dr. Julia (Yasuda), an intersex person, who performed the welcome in Morse code.

One theme explored in the band's music is aspects of transgender life. This is expressed in songs such as "For Today I Am A Boy", in which a young boy dreams of growing up to be a woman.

   I've been really busy and unfocused, but I still have the researched version of the list on my mind.  Someday.

I'd like to submit the oh-so lovely Hyde (J-Rock).  He's one of my idols for androgynous appearance because he does it and doesn't look campy or over the top.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstorage.canalblog.com%2F61%2F65%2F179563%2F6552967_p.jpg&hash=749e14165a4a63cc8edb02190ca3cb5c10f6325e)

I stole his haircut. 

I constantly show his picture to lesbians I know just to watch them question their sexuality. It works!  I could show pics of me with his hair, but that would be vain.

     Let's see those pictures, Tay.  Don't make us post drawings of what we imagine you look like with that haircut.


   I wish I looked like that guy.  And had a softer voice than what I do now.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv300%2Ftaineyah%2FPhoto317.jpg&hash=316295ea26f20a3f6640033bab9fbfc778284ea9)

and

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv300%2Ftaineyah%2FHPIM0124.jpg&hash=386472d324e1cb7be95121cee873259558f0c4b1)

Hopefully you can see the similarities in those photos--I need to take one in that pose that he's in in that pic above so you can see, but my hair is as close to identical as I can make it without having his actual stylist.

Quote from: Tay on June 26, 2007, 04:01:00 PM
Hopefully you can see the similarities in those photos--I need to take one in that pose that he's in in that pic above so you can see, but my hair is as close to identical as I can make it without having his actual stylist.

   Hi Tay,

   Those are really nice pictures. I know you're self conscious about looking overtly female, but to me, you look perfectly balanced. If I saw you in real life, I don't think I would know which gender to think of you as.  In my opinion, you are on target for some of your goals.

   The hair works for you.


Peace,

Rebecca

I want to aim for the Robert Smith or the guy from AFI's look but my job won;t allow that.

Does anybody think actress Leah Remeni is an adrogyne I mean she acts more masculine than most guys I have known from throughout my life and also she's female externally.

I think NASCAR driver Jeff Gordon is definately an androgyne as far as his personality goes. I mean Dale Earnhardt Sr. thought Jeff Gordon was gay but I think Earnhardt Sr. mistook Gordon's androgny for him being gay.

What about Daniela Sea?  (Max on the L Word.)  She definitely looks androgynous, and from what I've read online she doesn't fit clearly into either the female or male gender.

pete burns isnt androgynous, hes a female looking gay man...

Quote from: chillin on July 26, 2007, 03:01:42 PM
I want to aim for the Robert Smith or the guy from AFI's look but my job won;t allow that.

Does anybody think actress Leah Remeni is an adrogyne I mean she acts more masculine than most guys I have known from throughout my life and also she's female externally.

I think NASCAR driver Jeff Gordon is definately an androgyne as far as his personality goes. I mean Dale Earnhardt Sr. thought Jeff Gordon was gay but I think Earnhardt Sr. mistook Gordon's androgny for him being gay.

Leah Remini does have an aura of masculinity I think. I saw hir on a talk show earlier this week. Even off of the show and in real life she still has that personality. Sie may have some characteristics, not sure about hir gender identity though.

I dont know Jeff Gordon too well.

Quote from: Kai on July 27, 2007, 11:53:21 PM
What about Daniela Sea?  (Max on the L Word.)  She definitely looks androgynous, and from what I've read online she doesn't fit clearly into either the female or male gender.

According to Daniela's official site, sie lived as a man for 6 months in India. Added daniela, seems very much androgyne from what I read.

Pretty impressive list!

But I don't think Ellen Degeneres belongs on there. She is an average looking dyke.

Stand her next to Daniela Sea or Annie Lennox and she looks like a het in comparison.

I would suggest you go down your lists of rockers and musicians. They pioneered the look.
I'm not talking about glam either. Annie and Patti are good examples, but there are lots whose look slips over into androgyne from time to time, ala David Bowie back in the day.

As for the dyke and gay labels used, those are more orientation labels. But as for the dyke or gay persons part of the definition that refers to queering of traditional masculine and feminine gender identity, roles, appearance, or behavior I would happily have inclussive, as long as they feel they cross, blur, mix, or break gender boundaries.

Pete was married to his wife Lynne for about 25 years before they divorced.  Recently divorced few years ago, and this year on July 6, Pete and Michael were married in a civil partnership ceremony.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffranck.cnudde.free.fr%2Fdoa.fr%2Ftheface01.jpg&hash=aba81af02b9924787795d6af314d57692b24f878)(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.deadoralive.net%2Fnewsite%2Fnews%2Fweddingtall.jpg&hash=c43958fbcad6995bfaae011480527b240c618d99)

Quote from Pete Burns when asked about hir male and female qualities

QuotePete: Oh, the combination of male and female.

Pat: Yeah.

Pete: Well, we' re made of mother and father.I would say I was made up of 80% of my mother, who was particularly strong, and 20% of my father.

Pat: Yeah, well, you manifest more though the female component of your personality, which you say obviously we all have the male and the female. Do you think that...

Pete: I don't feel female.

Just accidentally surfed to Annie Lennox's site..she even posed for some skin shots.....nothing TOO revealing though.

Had a chance to see/hear her in Pioneertown Cantina/Pub a few years back when she had just returned from England and recording the Dracula soundtrack. She was all zippers, leather and blonde, and can she ever play a blues harp! WOW!

URL Here: http://www.annielennox.com/