Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Two people are standing in front of you, one man and one woman. 

The man is dressed in a blue pin-striped suit, light blue dress shirt, grey & black flower print tie, black dress shoes and black nylon socks.  His hair is short and parted slightly to the right of center.  He has on a gold man's watch, gold cufflinks and a handkerchief in his suit pocket.

The woman is dressed in a blue pin-striped dress suit, white blouse with lace trim at the collar and sleeves.  Her skirt stops just below the knees to reveal sheer suntan hose and black high heels.  She's wearing a grey and black flower print scarf around her neck and has a matching kerchief in the top pocket of her jacket.  She has pearl earrings, pearl necklace and a pearl bracelet.  Her hair is shoulder length and parted just right of center.  It is very full but out of her face, revealing the earrings.  She is wearing makeup typical of office standards.

Now imagine the two exchanging clothes.  All clothing exchanges will be tailored to fit the body. 

If the exchange jackets, will either be seen as crossing the gender line?
What about pants and skirt?
Blouse and shirt?
Shoes?
Hair styles, including length?
Jewelry?
Makeup?
Necktie and scarf?

How far can each go before people will see them as crossing the gender line?

I think as far as crossing the actual (or imagined/theoretical/etc) line, it comes down to two things: pants/skirt first, followed by shoes, for the man specifically.  The rest of it can be chalked up to expression of sexuality (i.e. gay/lesbian).  I think for women to cross over to the man side it's more about voice and behavior than clothing/appearance (but I'm no expert so don't hold me to that).

Interesting, Julie.

I would think that the pants and skirt: A skirt on a man especially if he was not 'presenting', would be a crossing of the line.
And shoes:  Men cannot carry off high heels. It does take talent to walk in heels.

The others are interchangeable.  Some men wear makeup, especially typical office.

Janet

Unfortunately, as soon as the man wears the skirt, the line has been crossed for many people in our society. Earrings, jewelry and makeup would push the limit as well. Women can generally wear more male clothing without anyone getting bent out of shape.

Z

I don't know if it's just me, but to me, gender is not in clothes.

To me its not the clothes that makes a gender its the person themself and also how they present them self even if they were naked. They actually do sell such clothing items called man skirts. But to the typical conservative person the man wearing the skirt would be crossing the gender line. The women however could get away with wearing the mans clothes and the hair and still just be considered a masculine lesbian. Women can get away with wearing supposed mens clothes a lot easier then a man can wear so called womens clothes. Thats just how the world is.

A man wearing a skirt and tossing an 18 foot long telephone pole around for fun or whiskey has not crossed the gender line!!  Rrright McTavish????

As long as the skirt is cut to accomodate a beer belly, a man can wear it!!  I have one of that kind of skirt, and can wear it in male or female mode!!!   ;D ;D ;D  Mel Gibson got away with it once!! :laugh:

Regrettably I do have lace ruffled skirts that would be over the line if I were in male mode.  High heels?  There are men's boots with high heels, and when you smell them, they are not feminine smelling, unless you are a stallion Palomino. 

There are people who hate the boy look on girls as badly as the girl look on boys!! 

Quote from: Janet Lynn on February 23, 2009, 05:12:29 PM
Interesting, Julie.

Men cannot carry off high heels. It does take talent to walk in heels.


Janet

Interesting thought. I thought all it took was practice, not talent. Identified men who cross dress and many, many drag performers walk about in high heels constantly and do just fine, even with 8 inch ones!! I don't see why Julie's hypothetical guy couldn't pull off high heels.

Puzzled Nichole

Interesting questions Julie but I don't understand what you mean by "crossing the gender line." Could you define that? Is that how the average person where you live viewing you as being female-ish or male-ish? Like if I'm in LA wearing femmish clothing and I'm seen as a fashionable guy vs. same clothes in Kansas that might get me killed? Could you clarify?

Quote from: MeghanAndrews on February 24, 2009, 12:28:31 AM
Interesting questions Julie but I don't understand what you mean by "crossing the gender line." Could you define that? Is that how the average person where you live viewing you as being female-ish or male-ish? Like if I'm in LA wearing femmish clothing and I'm seen as a fashionable guy vs. same clothes in Kansas that might get me killed? Could you clarify?

Crossing the gender line would mean the person walks out into public and most people would either think they are dressed normally for their gender or they look like they are trying to look more the opposite of their gender.  Now, we're not talking trans people.  We're talking people who are happy living in their birth gender.  This is intended to point out just how far a man can delve into the world of woman and vise-versa without the average person turning their head, rolling their eyes, etc..

Julie

In today's Western societies, women can wear just about anything and not be seen as cross dressing, though sometimes they may get funny looks.

As said earlier, with the exception of a kilt (and even that can be looked at as weird), a man in a skirt is not seen as "manly", even with a full beard and grease under his fingernails.  Shoes are another no-no.  There might be tall heels on those cowboy boots, but you can bet your saddle they ain't stilettos.

• Switch Jackets?  Probably OK as long there isn't any lace or frills.
• Blouse/Shirt?  The blouse mentioned in this example with the lace trim would be considered girlie and may cross the line.  At the very least it would be considered effeminate.
• Hair?  OK
• Jewelry?  A guy could get away with pearl earrings and necklace (maybe), but the bracelet probably wouldn't pass unless it were wide and macho.
• Makeup?  I wouldn't try to get away with it at work, but as one who wears eyeshadow and mascara just about everywhere else, I do get some strange looks from folks, and thus it should be considered borderline.
• Necktie/Scarf?  As long as you don't wear the necktie as a belt, a female would be just fine.  The scarf most likely would be a no-no for a guy (unless it looked like a western bandanna and you had on your rodeo duds).

Anyway...that's my take

....L
     
 

Skirt would be enough for male to cross the line.  The female could do the entire thing, and she'd still be teetering on the line.  If she cut her hair + wore the clothes and did the whole shebang, she'd still be on the gender fence.

The genetic male will be viewed as a freaky crossdresser.  Even if he manages to pull off a female voice, move correctly, etc. he will be rejected because of his muscle tone, skin tone, and his face.  Even if his makeup is flawless, he still lacks the proper fat distribution or "skin palette" underneath.  Women will react to him in fear, men will react with aggression.

The genetic female will have a more fluid outcome.  She may be viewed as an effeminate/gay male, a butch lesbian, or a female wearing men's clothing.  Her body language will strongly determine her passability.  Women will react to her with caution, men will react to her with curiosity.

Something I came across that I look at once in a while as food for thought.  I suppose it could be a 'to do' list, depending on how you approach things.

gender cues:

1] physical cues - body, posture, hair, clothing, voice, skin, movement, space, weight

2] behavioral cues - manners, decorum, protocol, deportment

3] textual cues - stories, histories, associates, relationships

4] power dynamics - top, bottom, entitlement/not

5] sexual orientation

I read something about the actual number of feminine gender cues that you need to have in excess of any masculine cues, before you usually can pass.   Has anyone read up on this?  I don't remember the actual numbers, but you do have to 'outweigh' the masculine in a lot of these areas before you begin to pass (supposedly).  I think there is so much variaton in people's perceptions that there really are no 'rules' per se.  I still think confidence in yourself is the biggest gender cue.  If your confidence causes someone to not take the discerning look, then you pass anyway, and that still counts as 1. (blah, blah, Ginger... I'm no expert - just throwing this in)

Well.... even a woman's jacket has subtle feminine details.  I think that it would end right there.

But... consider this.  I wear mens athletic shoes, jeans, and a mens tee, with a mens fleece jacket.  That's what I'll be wearing to see my doc in a few minutes.  It's easier for me to dress like everyone else around here. I wear the mens athletic shoes because that's what I can buy in a non white color and I like the style.  Think anyone will notice?  Not likely. No one has yet... and I've been dressing like this in this cow town for years.

Cindi

Well, I live in a suburb just west of Chicago.  Thirty minutes from my front door I can find myself in Boystown, a very gay neighborhood.  People in Chicago aren't clueless but many act like it.

Even with a modicum of exposure to the LGBT community I can say as soon as the man wears anything the woman is wearing, he's crossed the line, even if each piece of clothing is tailored to fit him.  Maybe the jacket he can get away with but it''s doubtful.  Makeup?  Busted!  Pearl earrings?  Busted!  The gender lines here are strictly drawn for men.

The woman can wear everything the man is wearing, as long as it's tailored to fit her.

Why are the gender lines so defined for men but not for women?

Julie

Right on Julie.

David Bowie himself couldn't even budge the Gender Line for men.

Popular thinking holds that men are the superior sex, that they have it made, etc. etc.  But that "freedom" comes at a price, namely, that masculinity is narrow and restricting should one choose to escape from it.

A lot of gender therapists I've read argue that MtF's have a harder time socially adjusting because there are very few opportunities for them to socialize until they pass reasonably well.  FtM's, in contrast, enjoy a lot of wiggle room in their expressions of masculinity.

But Julie asked, "Why are the gender lines so defined for men?"  Evolutionary psychologists probably have an answer having to do with mating, survival, and some such.

If I had to hypothesize, I would actually argue that it's cultural.  Feminism effectively widened the gender line for women...women were literally duped into becoming men during the 50's and 60's.  They started smoking cigarettes, wearing pants, cussing, behaving masculine.  Nobody consciously questions the popular culture - they accept it like a religion.  Ask a woman today if she feels self-conscious about doing "typically male stuff" and she'll just laugh at how absurd the question is.  Ask a woman from the 20's or 30's how she would feel about doing those things, and she'd tell you how silly it would be for a woman to cross the gender line.

I primarily believe that feminism gained so much force because our flailing socialist economy needed an injection of cheap labor (women) it order to stay afloat post WW2.  Breaking up the nuclear family unit is also a cornerstone of any socialist state (the State = your family, Tom Brokaw is your new father, the TV and public schools will raise the children.)

@ Brielle
Psychological models of categorization clearly favor feature multiplication rather than addition.  This means that, rather than checking off a list of features that make a person male or female, we give more credit to certain features over others.  For example, when determining whether a person is human or a mannequin, we look to whether the person is living - the existence of arms/legs/clothing will not tell us.

Faces are typically what we look to when there is gender ambiguity.  Very few women have brow bossing.  Out of the entire body, the forehead is one of the strongest cues to a person's gender.  Our brains AUTOMATICALLY determine a person's gender before we're even conscious of the classification.  So rather than spend 20-30 seconds mulling it over, our brains just take shortcuts and favor the evidence from a few statistically-relevant pieces of data.  The way a person walks, moves, and talks is also a massive indicator.

Another way of thinking about it: some guys have manboobs, and some girls have big noses or wide chins, but almost no girls have brow bossing, and almost no guys have a truly effeminate walk (even the gay ones).

How would you classify this person: no brow bossing and smooth forehead, somewhat wide and bumpy nose with no upturn, medium-width and height chin, female clothing, clunky gender neutral walk.  A lot of people would probably think it was an unattractive woman.

QuoteThe woman can wear everything the man is wearing, as long as it's tailored to fit her.
Why are the gender lines so defined for men but not for women?
Julie

I believe it's because the gender lines are defined though media which is controlled by men.  Why would the men in control choose this?  I can only guess - Because it's sexy.  Because they want to sell more men's clothes. Because they want to appropriate the female image.  Because the world is round? 

The machine obtains a manufactured consent.  I believe all consensus in manufactured through media.  It's fairly accessible for journalists to discern who manufactured the vote on Prop 8 for example, but who is in the upper levels pulling the strings - the ones we never hear of and never identify.  Who manufactures our deeper perceptions over decades and decades, dictates our needs, and dangles the carrot of self-actualization? 

Sorry if this seems off topic, but I believe manufactured consent is the root.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LVsiP0s33A#hq (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LVsiP0s33A#hq)

What does it take to cross the gender line?

One foot in front of the other  :laugh:

Quote from: Brielle on February 24, 2009, 10:32:25 PM
I believe it's because the gender lines are defined though media which is controlled by men. 

Absolutely.  If men were allowed to be effeminate, perhaps we wouldn't need to go to war?  We'd all just chill out, enjoy ourselves, and love each other.

It's common sense really.

I think a lot of war comes down to power struggles and no single gender is responsible for that. Though there might be less interpersonal violence if men weren't constrained by their gender roles to act tough. I don't know if you are familiar with the work of Jackson Katz, but he has a lot of really well developed theories on this.

Hmm. Well i think testoserone is responsible, evolution is responsible. Pump alot of T into either sex and it tends to make one aggressive, add to that whatever strife already exists and BOOM. Men aren't slaves to society, they  more often than not like acting tough when the situation warrants, it's not simply an exercise in societal mores. Why do you think that societal constraint began in the first place?

Having seen two women go at it full force over an earring.... I'm not sure that there would be "less" wars with less men/testosterone in charge.

Quote from: Miniar on February 25, 2009, 07:56:27 AM
Having seen two women go at it full force over an earring.... I'm not sure that there would be "less" wars with less men/testosterone in charge.

Although there would be just as much aggression, I feel like it wouldn't manifest itself as physical aggression. 

Also, I think women would work through international issues less egotistically if they had all the money.  It would be more about nurturing those in need than hoarding wealth for social status.

Quote from: Ashling on February 25, 2009, 12:38:46 PM
Although there would be just as much aggression, I feel like it wouldn't manifest itself as physical aggression. 

You didn't see them rip "chunks" of hair, with scalp, out of each other's heads..

Quote from: AshlingAlso, I think women would work through international issues less egotistically if they had all the money.  It would be more about nurturing those in need than hoarding wealth for social status.

I've seen corruptive, selfish, arrogant women as well as men. And the nature of power is such that it attracts those who would want to use it for their own purposes, regardless of sex/gender. Problem just has been that so far we've almost only seen men in charge, so we don't have proper information to compare the two, so it's easy to think that women would do better cause we haven't seen 'em do "as bad" so far.

Women need men to be strong so they can protect and take care of them.  Men dressed in silk and lace aren't seen as strong.

But what's funny is if you ask a group of women what they would like to see in their men, the majority could cite things like sensitivity, compassion, nurturing - female traits.  But they still want a big strong man.  ::)

And men are mostly insecure so they easily buy into this.  I worked construction for almost 3-1/2 decades and I worked with all kinds of macho.  But when you got these guys one-on-one they were almost all pussycats.  Most macho men put on an act.

So men can't emulate women or they will lost their image, the facade.  And once you lose that it's tough to gain it back.

Tell the guy to keep his suit and tie armor on.  That way the girl will find him attractive and then they can mate.  ;)

Julie

Regarding the original topic, I think the gender that people tend to "see" takes on a statistical approach (which someone else here mentioned).  In the broader culture, someone wearing a tie is suggested to be male, and wearing a dress is overwhelmingly evidence of someone (at least older than a young child) being female.  Of course, facial features, voice, earrings (and pearl ones in particular are a massive female lean), other jewelry (even certain "bling" carries on a heavy male lean), make-up, and self-identification also contribute to small and large extents, and the size and nature of the effects can vary from person to person.  An observer may be anxious if s/he sees massive leans in each direction from the same person, although realistically, there are other factors to take into account.  For example, it's perhaps not so much that a man wearing a dress is exceedingly unusual, but that the instances of them carry a context that invokes hostility, ridicule, or laughter (hazing, low-brow movies, skits, October 31).

Studies have generally shown that aggression is fairly equal among men and women; it's just that the manifestation of that aggression may tend to be different.  However, we can't say biology is the reason for the difference of the expression of aggression, because social roles tend to shape the way we behave.  Ultimately, though, the notion that women may or may not be better rulers if they were "in charge" distracts from the fact you don't want that type of heirarchy in the first place.  You want the most qualified people (women, men, androgynes, other) filling roles, not the most qualified ones that happen to have certain gender (or a certain skin color, or a certain economic status, or...).  Period.

Regarding media in society, a comprehensive discussion of them is probably suited to another forum.  To some extent, there is actually less consensus.  There are far more channels on TV to choose from, and emerging media such as video games and the Internet (especially the Internet) have facilitated a greater splintering of ideas.  Susan's Place may not have the influence to sway public opinion, but the Internet gives her the reach to help more people than would otherwise be possible for Susan.  The days of Tom Brokaw (and similar figures) are not gone, but they are fading -- there are a lot of personalities that are biting and clawing just to have a fraction of the power that anchors from the big three networks had in the 60's and 70's (this is not to downplay how things are now, but to centralized things were then).  And movies have come a long way from The Birth of a Nation (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_of_a_Nation").  Granted, each form of traditional major media (books, radio, music, TV, movies) is heavily controlled by a small number of corporations (which sometimes reach over multiple forms of media), but in the case of TV and movies, it is still an improvement.

As for the US being "socialist," I think there's more truth to the idea that the corporations controls society rather than society controls the corporations.  More accurately, though, I think there's a mix of control by "the people" (who cast the votes) and "money" (which can influence how people cast their votes).  I guess that makes western societies a blend of democracy/republic and plutocracy (the sway of each certainly depending on the particular state/province and country).

Golly gosh, that reply has so much bull->-bleeped-<- in it that I'm even at a loss for words.

Im not sure but If I think about it...I'd say the whole package for men to become a woman. But for a woman it's a matter of hair clothes and hiding the breasts to become a man for the day that is...It would be easier for a woman to cut her hair and put on a false moustach and hide her breasts...Wait a minute.This sounds like what crossdresses do.. Its not easy both ways and it's expensive. To buy the outfits and wigs and all, it cant be cheap..But I know what you mean about women wearing men's clothes....I guess a skirt makes a lot of difference. Only B->-bleeped-<-ipe men seem to get away with wearing skirts from Scotland.

Corporate tieves, political tieves, business tieves, financial tieves, tieves, tieves and dirty old greedy ratz everywhere, I tel ya!!!

The time hath come for ze demis of ze rat tieves. De good ship America is a sinkin folks, now watch all the ratz leave de ship. When the last rat jumps over board Cindy pulls out a tube of crazy glue from her purse. ;D

I like this one from Ashling;  :D

QuoteAbsolutely.  If men were allowed to be effeminate, perhaps we wouldn't need to go to war?  We'd all just chill out, enjoy ourselves, and love each other.

Cindy

Regardless of whether they are kilts or skirts . I cant stand men wearing something like that with hairy legs. :D.

Sorry, wasn't meant to be an offence, I shall remove the unwittingly offensive post.

Cindy

I was raised french, My dad was French and my Mom was french and Iroquois and I was funning around with the northern Ontario and Quebec French Accent. Sorry hon I was making fun of my own French, F - r -e - n - n - c - h accent.

I don't go around insulting people and if I do unintentionally I promptly apologise, ask anyone on this board, If anything I go out of my way to try and act as a mediator. m - e - d - i - a - t - o - r
Sorry if there is a language barrier here. I had foster kids that were French, Irish, Ojibwa, English, Dutch, and I am French and Iroquois, Trans and a sensitive and had my fair share of being picked on and bullied stomped and spat on call trash and every other ugly name you could think of, why? Just because I was different. So I am not a stranger to discrimination.

Wanna know more about Cindy? Go read my blog, Cindy's Ramblings Blog

Again I apologize for having offended.

Cindy 

Quote from: cindybc on February 26, 2009, 02:05:16 AM
Corporate tieves, political tieves, business tieves, financial tieves, tieves, tieves and dirty old greedy ratz everywhere, I tel ya!!!

The time hath come for ze demis of ze rat tieves. De good ship America is a sinkin folks, now watch all the ratz leave de ship. When the last rat jumps over board Cindy pulls out a tube of crazy glue from her purse. ;D

I like this one from Ashling;  :D

Cindy

Hey I like America. Im almost American. My stepfather is an American and was in the Navy for 35 years. He was nice. My first reading and counting lessons were from Sesame Street..Which I still love. Thanks PBS.
And Last but not least STAR WARS was made by mostly Americans So please dont dis them. There is a lot of good people there! Im always looking forward to new bands and Movies from The US and Canada and I love Sepultura's "Roots" album and their from Brasil. I love their football as well. There is heaps Im thankful for!

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Post Merge: February 26, 2009, 03:25:34 AM

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I forgot to mention all the friends Ive met there through the Trans scene that have saved my life....And become part of a crowd. It feels good to stick together no matter where we are on the planet!

Me too, I lived in Amarica for a decade, I'm married to an American hon, and the Ratz I speak of are the the greedy people that almost killed America, the Ratz. Once the Ratz abandon ship I take out my crazy glue from my purse to patch the hole in the ship, and then just pass out the tomato cans to all the passengers, (Americans) to bail out the ship and wave by by to those there dirty ratz in the ocean. We can even let them have the life preservers See!  :D

Cindy

Sadly the facts are that men have killed tens of millions of human beings in the last century and continue to do so in this one.

Just the deaths suffered by the Soviet Union, China, Germany and Indonesia exceed the present day population of France or Italy.

As for the US, where does one start? I have nothing against the American people but their government is a threat to us all. In light of the extent of their interventions here's a short list: http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html (http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html)

To kill one human being is as to kill all humanity, to save one human being is as to save all humanity - The Holy Qur'an

Quote from: Miniar on February 25, 2009, 07:56:27 AM
Having seen two women go at it full force over an earring.... I'm not sure that there would be "less" wars with less men/testosterone in charge.

The Chinese character for "WAR" basically means "two women in one house" ...

So, based on the most recent posts, is it safe to say the guy really can't wear anything the girl is wearing but the girl can wear anything the guy is wearing and neither will be seen as trying to present in any way contrary to their birth gender?  :P

Julie

Personally my take is that back in the fifties and sixties they would have called the guys with the little white frocks and pretty pink butterfly nets if a man went out in public wearing a dress. Even back in the seventies I remember overhearing  a couple of guys sayin, "if yar not sure, kick um between the legs."

I am not certain if those kind of attitudes have changed that much since then, except maybe in the larger cities where dressing weird is more tolerated or common place. I also think it depends largely on attitude and how one presents themselves.

It's easier for a woman wearing men's clothes to pass more inconspicuously then men in women's clothes, for one thing is because today it is a lot more common to see women dressed in men's clothes.
For certain work related reasons and it has become more the style. For example;
# 1  Probably the main reason I think is work related dress codes. Ya don't wear a dress if your working on a construction site for one thing. 
# 2 Public utilities.
# 3 A carpenter.
# 4 A mechanic.
# 5 A truck driver.
# 6 Taxi driver, etc, etc.

The Guys, night clubs, gay bars, special occasions like Halloween, or privacy of home etc, etc. Then go to dressing as guys at the end of the night, unless they are full time TS.

Cindy

@chrysalis

thx for the Katz ref.

"My Captain, My Captain." - The male feminist, anti-pornographer, critic of masculinity and white privilege - Robert Jensen, Journalism Professor from Texas U (Austin)