Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've been thinking about what the world would be like if non-binaries were recognised and accepted.

Part of me thinks we would still have male and female and we would simply form an 'other' category, but all in all it would be much more acceptable to blur the lines. There will be people on the edges and then those that kind of float about the middle while still identifying as one sex or another. You would probably see more unisex bathrooms. The logistics of 3 seperate ones becomming too much of a burden.
I'm not entirely sure if there would be enough of us to cater commercial stuff for specificaly - I'm thinking clothing here,  even if you desired non-binary specific clothing there would probably be specialist non-binary shops where the pants are mixed in with the dresses. There would be no mens on one side womens on another.
I think religion would be forever changed with many religious figures being attributed as being non-binary as we seem to be more inclusive than exclusive.

What would happen to sports? I wonder if things would become less seperatist and more inclusive?

If anything I think everyone would be much happier than they are now.

 

With sports, I think there would still be some sort of divide, as women generally just don't have the same strength to compete with men. But maybe it wouldn't be so rigid if a woman of equal strength or a man of lesser strength wanted to compete with their equals.

Quote from: Nicky on March 02, 2009, 03:33:05 PM
I'm thinking clothing here,  even if you desired non-binary specific clothing there would probably be specialist non-binary shops where the pants are mixed in with the dresses. There would be no mens on one side womens on another.

Shopping with my wife this weekend, we were in a department with boy-cut jeans, pants suits, capris, skorts, skirts, and dresses, one- and two-piece bathing suits (and the ability to buy bottoms only). The shoe department had shoes seemingly identical to what I wear. Really, I could find lots of clothes there. She couldn't find large shirts without breast pockets; breast pockets would be OK with me. That leaves the questions of left or right buttoning, of different size systems, and of gendered dressing rooms (though I noticed a skirt on the rack in the men's fitting area).

I'm too shy to take clothes from that department to the men's fitting room (or to take my beard into the women's fitting area). Is that all that is holding back Utopia?

Feeling reactionary,
S

I imagine, Nina dear, that if people just started to just cross those lines more often we would quickly reach some sort of critical mass (I love the phrase, 'critical mass') and it would be all ok, like a big sigh. Unfortunately I also think this critical mass would also bring a critical response from those who want to keep the status quo. There would be fighting and riots and Androgynes would have to get out their chain saws and once the dust clears people would realise that a human arm is much the same whether cut off from a male or female.

In my country in most places the changing areas are not really designated female or male, but where they are located says a lot. For example, the changing rooms in a female orientated department store are intended for women. I found it hard going into them, you can feel that social preasure. But I think we need to put our courage to the sticking place and just do it otherwise nothing will change.

Personally I loathe the pressures and obligations of the "Binary World".

We should be free to be who we are, when I was young I was obsessed with the all or nothing approach which appears to be omnipresent at the moment. However getting older I'm actually getting to like and enjoy the middle ground. It appeals to me politically and to be totally honest people fancying me for what I am is a big turn on for me.

It seems that this position is disliked almost universally, by Straight people, by Lesbian and Gay people and by "HBS" people. That's not nice as it fails to understand where we're coming from. I'm considered female by all my friends who are mainly Lesbian but sometimes I feel guilty about it, I may be a woman but I accept they are different from me. It's so weird sometimes.

A couple of weeks ago I had a really beautiful girl many years my junior hit on me big time in front of my friends. She fancied me for "what" I am, not because I'm a woman or a man. It felt good and it's kind of changed the way I think, maybe I am androgynous and have been in denial all this time. Don't know, still feel female but I'm really just a mix at the end of the day.

Thanks for bringing the subject up, coming here has made me think about many things. :)

Quote from: Nicky on March 02, 2009, 06:51:45 PM
There would be fighting and riots and Androgynes would have to get out their chain saws and once the dust clears people would realise that a human arm is much the same whether cut off from a male or female.

Ima gonna have to sit on the sideline for this one coach. I loaned my chainsaw out this weekend against my better judgment, and of course the guy broke it  >:(

I hear what you are saying, but to get there it would take a lot of education of the binaries to understand and begin to accept us. To them we are just some very weird "gay" people who like to dress against sociatial norms (man in a dress). Sadly, we just ain't right to them.

I do like your unisex clothing shop idea  8) I think such a shop, if marketed in a trendy way, would catch on in certain areas of the country. The shop could also handle makeup and makeovers. You could even make the bathrooms unisex just like some clubs do.

Maybe john lennon had it right ....

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

I'd Love to live in a non binary world
I might even find a mixed team sport I would enjoy any all male team would feel opressive to me I long for the day when I'm accepted enough to to wear a dress to the shops without fear of discrimination or attack

I find myself female. Period. But does that mean I must insist that everyone else must be female or male? Well, no, I don't. Not anymore anyhow.

I can see where a non-binary, non-tertiary, non-quaternary(?) world would relieve a lot of pressure on a lot of people and wouldn't keep me from trotting along just as I am either. I mean if one's not forced to be one or another or a third or twenty-seventh then how does that effect my being female?

I presume that would mean I could still wear the clothes that appeal to me, do the things I love to do and be pretty much just the same person I am anyhow, right?

I fit the binary but lose nothing of it's gone. And I don't see, anymore, a lot of upside to having it, just another box in which its easy to gather people in order to keep them penned and available for singling out or grouping out as necessary to winnow the population. Same thing is true about class, political belief, race, ethnicity, education (O, you'll run out of patience long before I run out of categories.)

IMO, the problem is people have such little self-esteem and self-actualization that we require those boxes to feel like we are somebody. Lose the boxes and lose so much else for some folk. But, it's prolly a lot like growing up or dying, aging or any of those other things we fear so badly until we do them .... O, this isn't so bad at all, is it. What was I afraid of?

Nichole 

Hmm.  I think it would be awesome to live in a world where people just didn't care.  But I suppose we'd have to be careful not to push our non binariness onto the binaries...that would make us just as bad as them.

I have imagined that world now and then.  It's just people being people.  No fear or disapproval.

if it the world is now binary.. as opposed to non binary, wouldn't making the switch to non binary only make it even more binary than before?

haha i see what u mean.. just wanted to be smart

a world where people are people and anyone can wear/act/do whatever they like and not be judged becaue everyone is equal sounds perfect but i'd line to know in a non binary world would our differences be celebrated eg. pride marches or just accepted and not spoken  of?

I think the ideal is you would not need pride marches. You don't see that many marches celebrating women or men do you?

Male Pride marches take place in Barrooms and Brothels.

Ahh, I had no idea. I don't spend as much time in such places as you do Rebis  :)

I've been in some miserable places in my time.

Quote from: Rebis on March 09, 2009, 02:38:37 PM
Male Pride marches take place in Barrooms and Brothels.

Harsh!

I suppose Female Pride marches would take place in tampon isles and abortion clinics.  >:-)

ooo...somebody's feeling sassy!

Quote from: Jaimey on March 09, 2009, 10:39:55 PM
I suppose Female Pride marches would take place in tampon isles and abortion clinics.  >:-)

ooo...somebody's feeling sassy!

harsher.

Quote from: aisha on March 06, 2009, 01:11:35 PM
if it the world is now binary.. as opposed to non binary, wouldn't making the switch to non binary only make it even more binary than before?

haha i see what u mean.. just wanted to be smart

Of course. If we didn't have binary, non-binary would be pretty meaningless, wouldn't it? I mean without having anything to be "non" in regards to?  ::)

Thank God for the sanity here on the Androgyne threads! The madness going on elsewhere on this forum is doing my head in. :)

Quote from: imaz on March 10, 2009, 11:29:14 AM
Thank God for the sanity here on the Androgyne threads! The madness going on elsewhere on this forum is doing my head in. :)

We only have the appearance of sanity.

A quick look at the fish thread reveals who the real sick people are  :D

Quote from: imaz on March 10, 2009, 11:29:14 AM
Thank God for the sanity here on the Androgyne threads! The madness going on elsewhere on this forum is doing my head in. :)

If I felt sane and normal, would I be pounding on the keyboard with my shiny-red-nailed fingers? Just point me to the madness.

She did tell me to be good while she was gone,
S

And we are living
in a binary world
and I am a non-binary.....birl!

Quote from: riven_one on March 10, 2009, 01:57:53 PM
We only have the appearance of sanity.

A quick look at the fish thread reveals who the real sick people are  :D

Hehe!

I've decided to abandon the binary. Can I join you androgynes? -_-

*plunks himself down somewhere between the F box, the M box, and all the other boxes, and stays there*

We're refugees, we demand asylum!

Quote from: imaz on March 10, 2009, 07:39:42 PM
We're refugees, we demand asylum!

The only requirement is that you don't object to Nero frolicking naked in the forest...

We have this wonderful place you can stay, it is called Candy Mountain!

Quote from: Nicky on March 10, 2009, 08:14:08 PM
The only requirement is that you don't object to Nero frolicking naked in the forest...

We have this wonderful place you can stay, it is called Candy Mountain!

I'll have to have a photo of that frolicking before making any hasty decisions... ;)

Quote from: Yochanan on March 10, 2009, 07:28:26 PM
I've decided to abandon the binary. Can I join you androgynes? -_-

*plunks himself down somewhere between the F box, the M box, and all the other boxes, and stays there*

Sure, we're glad to have you join us... pull up a box, or crate of fish  ;D

Z

What's with the fish?

Something ain't right here!

yeah, I would avoid eating the donuts too...

Did someone say donuts? >_>

Quote from: imaz on March 10, 2009, 09:09:31 PM
Something ain't right here!

There's a lot not right here... :icon_eyebrow:

Quote from: Yochanan on March 10, 2009, 10:03:17 PM
Did someone say donuts? >_>

shhhh...... you'll attract the  :police:

It would be nice to have a world where everyone is free to be who they are.  No need to conform to outside expectations, those who want to run with the wolves are free to do so, as are those who choose to sleep with the fishes, which sadly is a choice for some.

And I see - at least here - a breakdown at least at the margins.  I've always seen women shopping in the mens' department, for themselves and for their BFs.  But I see more men in the woman's section for whatever reason (and I'm not inquiring) these days.  Perhaps they are all buying gifts, but I doubt it. 

My roommate buys clothes from the mens department but gets angry when I go into the woman's section.

I've seen some young males wearing what might be womens clothing.  Usually, it's just one article of clothing mixed in with their manly man clothes.  Maybe the clothes are unisex, but I'm unaware because I'm an old frog who rarely leaves the pad.

Quote from: Jaimey on March 10, 2009, 10:04:42 PM
There's a lot not right here... :icon_eyebrow:

The people are all right (half left actualy) even if some of us are told we are not (because we dont fit in boxes)

because we dont fit in boxes

No, but we play in them all the time, I made a hat out of one just the other day.

The way I see it, there are two kinds of people...Binary and Non-Binary

Well..and those who see the world as having two kinds of people and those who don't

Maybe life would be easier if your gender were measured the same way your height and weight are measured.  So I guess that would make me 5' 10" of female and 200 pounds of male???

.......L

I think in the world there are 10 types of people
those who read binary, and those who don't

(OOH clever!)

... Yeah.

In truth, I think there are like 6M types of people.
Twins are just the same type, only negated.

Quote from: tekla on March 13, 2009, 10:48:08 AM
because we dont fit in boxes

No, but we play in them all the time, I made a hat out of one just the other day.

You can wear a box like a dress if needed... and wear box shoes...
Hmmmm, I'm envisioning a new line of wardrobe... I'll call it stepping outside the box (TM)  ;) :D

Z

Quote from: Zythyra on March 13, 2009, 02:42:44 PM
You can wear a box like a dress if needed... and wear box shoes...
Hmmmm, I'm envisioning a new line of wardrobe... I'll call it stepping outside the box (TM)  ;) :D

Z

Here's proof of concept:
http://kotaku.com/gaming/never-forget/gundam-box-cosplayer-remembered-by-akihabara-263158.php (http://kotaku.com/gaming/never-forget/gundam-box-cosplayer-remembered-by-akihabara-263158.php)

you know, this is one place I never expected to see Gundam Box.

Hello to you all. As far as binary is concerned, I can think of myself as a female but since I dress as I please based upon what job I do, whether it is cold or warm (or having too many hot flashes) feeling very casual or not giving a rat's patuti about what other people think or needing to be presentable so as not to cause say angst to my visiting mother, it is how the binary world perceives me that causes me problems now and then.
    I used to be a cab driver in Las Vegas and loaded luggage and basically transported people about the city of lights and invariably several people, or daily really people would hop in the back and say, "my man, take me to..." or "How is going Buddy..." Thanks Buddy etc" so.... I did an experiment and much to my partner's chagrin, I went out and bought some basic makeup like lip-gloss, rouge and mascara and put it on two or three times.  It didn't matter, I still got called dude, buddy, man, sir etc. (It made my partner nervous but hey I wanted to be sure).  The customers seemed to react to my size, shape, voice, tone, clothing, and topics of discussion.
   In the binary world womyn/women are suppossed to stay clear of certain subject matters or topics, but I was never told Hey El you shouldn't discuss such things with women or this is a topic solely for men.  I discuss what I find interesting, and it's rarely ever shopping for purses or makeup, not even when I was young and wore such accessories (shopping with my Mom excluded, but not even then to my recollection). 
    Why should I have to stay clear of certain topics with anyone?  I'm a Taurus, and well, I like to dress comfortably even when I dress up to go out with my partner. I like soft, loose fitting clothing and that includes silk, if I can afford it, on rare occasions, and I wear men's and women's clothing dependant on the look and purpose. I didn't realize the buttons were on opposite sides, I just buttoned up.  The downside to this is, stuffy old women used to leave the restroom's in casino's  in Vegas and if I was coming out and they were entering and look to see if they were in the correct bathroom and sometimes give me a ration of .... .   
    I have been know to say "hey, I've got the same body parts as you do!", and think to myself (wanna compare b..ch?). They are not sleeping with me or taking long hot showers so what difference does it make if I identify as a womun or a man? Either you are interested in what I have to say or you are not, and if not you can politely excuse yourself from the topic of conversation or stay quiet and think about what I have to say.   
    I got called Sir so often I questioned whether or not I am a transsexual but I am perfectly fine being androgenous, except... I don't like it when I look in the mirror and feel as though I am seeing my father in the reflection. Well at least my folks accept me as I am.
  Often times parents raise a child in a non-bimodal manner and encourage a sort of androgeny, thankfully mine did just such a thing, and made being okay with myself as is,  a whole lot easier. Why can't we all be adaptible to all types of chores and topics and willing to discuss calmly all sorts of being?
   

Wow, a most awesome first post.  I'm impressed, or as close as I get anymore to that.

I mean I know a lot of binary is out there, almost like a gauze over everything, but its not like gauze is all that hard to get past either.  And the 'punishment' for transgressing these huge 'invisible social borders' gets less all the time.  And the more you think about it (and face it, most people don't ever think about it at all) the more you see it.  But to most its invisible.  And lots of people walk through it all the time.

I had my annual physical exam today. The doctor noticing my bright red toe nails, I commented I was tired of looking at the fungus beneath. He chuckled, agreed, asked if my co-workers at UPS knew about them, and went on. So you may be right: it is getting easier to wander cross the border. Little by little.

S

I agree, A Non-Binary world would be best not only for society but also for the Transgender community. I believe that The Gender Binary System stresses out the Transgender community because there's more people who want to pass through the Binary system then there is Non-Binary.

some will try to resist the idea that gender identity can even exist outside of established gender roles, even though one's identity is such a very personal thing.

but you know, yourself, that you have to continue to focus on your own identity issues, outside of local opinions, to get to the real you. for some, it may be a fierce need for personal acceptance of the self; in which case, you are at risk if you allow others to define the space where your identity must be confined to.

-ell