Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Life experience is always progressing. One follows their desires, wishes, wants, dreams, and urges while dealing with fears, obsticles, blocks, burdens (financial, social, employment, school, friendships, addictions, etc).

I just was wondering where others were at:

What stage are you at in discovery, experimentation, transitioning, fully evolved expression.
What directions are you headed.


For Example: (I realize no 2 androgynes are the same, and not headed in the same direction, but were are you in your own experience compared to what you want)

As a child, I didnt think in terms of Male and female. I just knew I acted and liked certain things and was more oblivious of society.

I finished my discovery stage about 8 years ago, with the help of a therapist. She really helped me discover and fully accept that those parts of me that I had kept denying, hiding, and only expressing in private was probably hurting me greatly. And that I would fully recognize them in order overcome the painfull experiences and depressive feelings I was going through at that time.

Yes experimentation happened before discovery, but after my therapy sessions, the experimentation had better direction. Living was more about finding out more about what was the 'real me'. Real experimentation has happened the last 2 years. Actually attempting different things such as real life experience in being my self at home, then integrating things in public life (work and daily interactions). Real life experiences including appearance things: wearing makeup in public androgynously, getting earrings and wearing, wearing some feminine clothing and colors, shaping thinned feminine eyebrows, growing long nails. Even during this though I keep my masculinity still present. I am androgyne not trying to pass as female. My voice and main features still male. At work I still go with my thinning hair, not with the collection of wigs I have accumulated. Though I have worn them a few times just going out. I also set out to learn some things I had always wanted to learn like more about makeup, try sewing and making clothing, and making jewelry.

The transitions (not in a TS sense of the word) have been the changes or things experimented on that I like and repeat frequently.

Physically I am now dealing my anatomy now, and how my physical form will match my gender mix. This is where I am at right now.

The direction I am headed is further physical changes and working on my voice to add more femininity into it. Something a little more androgynous.

Relationship wise, I feel content at the moment. Though I know my work relationships might be affected slightly by any transitioning.

I've started to reply to this a few times and it would never come out right. So this time I'm just going to plow through. Hopefully it will make sense. ;D

I feel I'm close to being finished with the discovery stage. Most of the big picture is there. In one sense it's only been six months, but in another sense it's been a good 20 or 25 years. I knew as late as high school that I was different. Not knowing what I was other than not really a man and not really a woman I went back and forth between simply calling myself a freak and trying to figure out what was going on with me. Six months ago I finally accepted that I was a crossdresser. I thought all crossdressers felt like I do. A week or two later I knew that I was transgendered. A month ago today I started calling myself genderqueer. And three weeks ago I started considering that I might be androgynous. But these last six months have largely been about learning the vocabulary and putting labels on how I feel. That and accepting that I'm OK the way I am.

I'm still fairly new when it comes to experimenting. Six months ago I was an unacceptable freak so I wasn't doing any real experimenting. I've been playing with my wardrobe and think I know how I'm comfortable. I'm growing my nails and and hair, and I shave my arms and legs. I've been more aware of things like my mannerisms and vocabulary lately and have started to play with those. I still very much have "regular" identity problems, never mind gender identity problems, so experimenting has been a bit of a problem. It's hard to know what I might like when I'm not really sure who I am day-to-day. I know that sounds like I'm contradicting myself. It's the whole big picture vs. little picture thing.

Transitioning has mostly been a mental thing. Lately I've adopted the motto of what's the point of being transgendered if I'm going to limit the experiences I'll allow myself to have. I'm slowly converting my wardrobe to how I'd like to dress. Physically I have "man boobs" (thank you Mother Nature) and that's getting me through for now.

I don't really know what direction I'm headed. My identity problems make me a sort of tabula rasa so I'm just enjoying discovering what I like and don't like.

Well I am in the process of coming out and experimenting.

I have had my ears pieced and have brought some nice earing to wear when I go out in girl-mode.

I few people have suggested that I buy some slacks and a blouse which I will need to look at soon. I guess I have a lot of experimenting to do and trying and find happiness.

Alice

Would I dunno count?

Because I know I seek to appear more male but I am both and neither  at the same time in a shifting way depending on my state of being at the time..,Also Feline I think is something not included in most questionares like this.I find the main constant for me is feline...What gender is feline? ....well feline. Nuff said!

Sure you do. I said each one would be different, feline included.

I'm exploring.

I hope that will never stop, but I know that I will be done with this looking soon and have an answer.  I then hope to move to an area where I am at least tolerated, if not accepted.  Again, work is not good, but it may be better some day.

I know I am differant, but I don't know how much. 

Every day is an adventure.

Constant discovery here....

Like you alls, I largely had a gender neutral childhood. Don't really remember much of it revolving around gender. In puberty though, the walls all came tumbling down. As I grew in intelligence and life experience, I did realize that I was different.

The "I am a freak" phase was pretty short here. I have strong faith that things happen for a reason, and strangely high self esteem, so I didn't really sink too deep into sorrow. From, oh, about 15 or so, I've identified as a cross-dresser, and thats where I sort of am even now...

Susans has really shown me alot as to how there are a great many different tg experiences, and within the past year or so, I've safely excluded the possibility of transexual from my list. Just don't have the sense of dysphoria many TSes do. I'm relatively at peace with who I am and where I am going...

And now, with this new Androgyne category, I'm investigating to see if this might be a better fit than CD...

Perhaps in a few months, I'll know... :P

-Nessa

Well, for starters, I've been poking around the forums here for a few days, and only just now found what might be a good spot for my first post.

I'm thinking I like Androgyne. My biggest problem, as an anatomical female in modern society, has always been about fitting into a genderpolarized world. I have always felt... funny... in dresses, and only been able to wear them when I'm in a specific mood. I remember dressing in a purposely boyish way in high-school, even though the clothes I wore then would probably have gotten an anatomical male laughed at, or called gay. I sang alto in choir, though whenever we were short on tenors, I filled in, having a low voice for a young female. I play role-playing games (tabletop, not computer... another vastly male-dominated hobby!), and about half of the characters I created were male, and about half female. To avoid getting into territory better mentioned in the sexuality forum, I'll briefly add that I have even had certain fantasies wherein I wasn't my own anatomical sex... and not just a few. It wasn't until I recently attended a series of classes about advocacy that I learned more about the transgendered community. I found myself asking the question (about all I dared to ask, the idea was so new!), "I know that men desiring to wear dresses is normally thought of as cross-dressing... but if a woman had the tendency to be a ->-bleeped-<-... how would she know?" Women wear the kind of thing I'd been wearing all along... but most of them didn't get angry when a formal occasion required them to wear a dress. I had recently begun to actually identify as bisexual, I had always preferred a more androgynous look to both men and women, and I knew I was somehow different, but had never really thought about being transgendered or genderqueer before now. I just figured I was tired of stereotypes.

I decided to learn more... from television programs about intersex and transsexual people, articles online, and even the "what gender is your brain?" test on this site (I scored a flat 50, by the way!), I began to understand a bit more. Finally, after reading the full description of Androgyne at the top of this section, I now feel comfortable that I have finally found, not so much a label, but an accurate descriptor of myself. I have learned some new vocabulary, and I identify as a bi-sexual (actually pansexual, but I'm still working out that word in my head) anatomically female androgyne who is comfy with feminine pronouns and not seeking surgery.

Now, I have to figure out my next step. I'm not always treading the line gender-wise. Some days, I don't mind wearing a dress... I even enjoy it, in certain circumstances. However, I'm increasingly aware that there are some days I feel definitively masculine, and I would like to try "passing" as male. I don't want to have people curb their language and tell me they "forgot there was a lady present" (RRRRrrr! I hate that!), I don't want to be referred to as Ma'am by strangers, and I don't even want to have to use the ladies' room when I'm out and about (I love those co-ed "family" bathrooms, and have no qualms about using them). I have never actually tried to pass, though... and the idea is kind of scary. I honestly don't know what I would say to those who questioned me if I didn't look male enough to pass. I know I want to try it, but exactly how is something I feel very mixed about. So that's where I currently stand.

By the way, nice to meet everybody. Out and about on the net, I'm usually Trystan Laryssa, a name that in and of itself speaks of dichotomies. I may see about changing my profile here... and I think I like this board.

I sometimes wonder of late if I am regressing... the rubber band effect ;)

I aks myself why I am strangely drawn to the forum.  I don't know why but I have enjoyed it very much.  I've discovered many new facets of my personality here. And for that, I am grateful.

Cindi

I'm kind of odd myself.  This is the first time I'll admit it.  I want to transition completely to female with SRS, but I feel like it would still be fun to try and pass as male every now and then.  It mostly depends on whether I "forget" the male voice or not, which I haven't yet.

Melissa

I am going to reflect more on my experiences.
I never really saw a transition to being androgynous.  I pretty much had a self realization since sometime in high school.  The thing is I acted and was androgynous throughout my life, which is part of the reason I was constantly picked on in grammer and middle school.  I just became aware of who I was when I was a teenager.  Even to this day it has a weird effect on relationships, because most people do not really have a good grasp on gender issues and have set things in thier mind.  I often tell people about this outright going into relationships, but they often do not understand until later and the relationship quickly falls apart.   

The other thing is it is not hard to be androgynous when you are pretty androgynous in the way you look.  I think the only thing I will do is remove my facial hair permanently.  But that is less of a transition and more something I feel I need to do.  I am not neutrois, though I have thought about seriously going this path in some ways (unich).   I am definately not in the same field as those who are transitioning to male or female.  I would not like to have breasts just as much as I would not like to be built like a barbarian.  I do want to get rid of some more masculine features (the beard mainly), but it is not that I want to replace them with strictly feminine features.  I do not feel like a female stuck in a males body, and I never felt masculine.  I am not seeking hormones or a sex change, because I do not think either sexual construct reflects my personal gender identity. 

I have worn makeup in public to come off as more androgynous, I have mixed male and female clothing, sometimes out of necessity.  I have behavioral habits which are more feminine that I had throughout my life. 

My family figured out long ago I was androgynous.  I never really even needed to tell them, they just figured it out. 

I never thought about growing my nails, ever.  I am a musician, and musicians genderally cannot have long finger nails on both hands.  I have painted my nails though in the past.  But having nails is both painful and destructive if you play guitar. 

The weird thing with me is the fact sometimes I am more feminine and other times I am more masculine, and other times I feel completely outside of both gender classifications. 

The best way I like to put it is being androgynous is very weird in the eyes of most people, but it gives you insight as well.  You begin to hate the gender constructs that society imposes.  Alot of it is because my own identity, but part of it comes from my belief that gender constructs hold society back.  I would say being androgynous is not a choice, it is just who I am, but who I am shapes my philosophical view point as well. 

Hey Seldom, welcome. And you can have long nails if you play classical guitar, like I do. You pretty well have to have them on your right hand.

Post an intro when you have a moment.

Dennis

Yes nails is a personal preferrence and optional. I have longer nails then most GGs.

But I only have them because I want them. My environment is pretty rough handling 60 totes of magazines each week, sometimes smashing them or damaging them somewhat. They are a curse and a blessing to me, more of the later of course to me.

Me I am not naturally feminine I think. If you see me unfeminized you would probably agree, (maybe even femininized  not so much since I have had no surgeries and such).

Anyway thanks for the posts

Ken/Kendra

Hmm... Let's see here. I'm currently in my infancy in the "Experience", but honestly I've been acting "femmy" for most of my life. Thinking back to my childhood made me realize why I behaved a certain way when all the other boys didnt, and has caused a lot of epihanies so far. Now that I'm feeling more comfortable in my own skin, I can start living like I want and not feel held back by gender roles (ask me about my 'orrible mascara application! ;D).

This should be a fun time. I can't wait to see where it takes me.

QuoteWhat stage are you at in discovery, experimentation, transitioning, fully evolved expression.
What directions are you headed.

From my earliest childhood memories, I never felt that I belonged to the gender that everyone identified me as being. I also intuitively knew that saying so probably wasn't a good idea.  ;D I never related to doing traditional male activities, and in school was often taunted by male persons as being a sissy or queer. I didn't at all mind being considered a sissy or queer except that I didn't like getting beat up. :( Even then I was proud of my "sissyness". Like many other folks here, I secretly dressed up in any clothes I could find at home, I don't remember how old I was the first time I dressed up though, maybe 7 or 8 yrs old.

Fast forward to early 1990s, I was already out as gay/bi and occasionally wore skirts when I became aware of myself as M2F TG and transitioned. I did the RLT for a year (I was very happy living as a woman), and then retransitioned to a non or neither gender space where I've been living for the last dozen years. It's a constant journey, I'm still discovering and figuring out ways to fully be and express myself.

zythyra

Kendra asked:

Quote
I just was wondering where others were at:

What stage are you at in discovery, experimentation, transitioning, fully evolved expression.
What directions are you headed.

Confused. Frustrated. Lonely. Unsure.

Mentally I am at a stage where I feel as though it is time to finally come to grips with this fabulously dressed pink elephant I've been sweeping under the rugs for so long. I've been through so many stages of denial, desperate self-labeling, and utter confusion I am sure that my androgyne identification is at the core of so much ongoing dysfunctionality in my life: the depression, the frustrated anger, discontent, extreme and poor decision making, distancing myself from the people around me, guarding my words to not reveal something that will ostracize me and subject me to obloquy*. Yet I'm still dealing with even understanding who or what I am enough to even talk about it out loud.

Because I spent so many years hiding so much of myself, I have gone to lengths in the past to make sure no one would ever suspect there was anything different about me in "that" way, even though I'm not sure what "that" is. In the past few years I have spent much time considering and trying to determine what "that" is. And I am definitely at the stage where I still don't know, so I'm going to have to use that as the starting point for "coming out". I'm at the stage where I need to start coming out with the fact that I don't know, and hope that the people around me might help me find those answers.

Mentally, in my efforts at gender/sexual identity obfuscation, I have allowed some of the beautiful giving passionate person I started out as to die. I am at the stage where I must undo that damage, reaquire my belief in magic, accept the unfairness of the world and do my best to make it a better place. I am at the stage of learning to share my thoughts and feelings openly without fear of the consequences. I am at a stage where I must learn how to be strong without having to always be right or in control.

I must learn to laugh again, to be silly again, to be giddy again. To love life for what it is and give of myself to others, because I have taken too much, and confined myself too much.

Sexually I am far from understanding. After having left a very good relationship, for many reasons, least of which involved gender or sexual confusion. Though once single again, having been in relationships with women (boy/girl) one after another practically back to grade school, yet having dealt with suspicious homosexual urges off and on, I reached a stage where I needed to find out if I was gay (androgyne/cross dressing aside). I've been single and timidly trying to meet guys, almost entirely online for several years. But I've been too scared. Too scared what my family and friends would think if I were gay. Worse if they found out I was the stereotypical "woman" in the gay relationship. Then exposing myself to gay culture revealed that transgender wasn't on the radar of most gay men, often a blatant turn-off, solicting as much disdainful comments as I feared from the world at large.

So I am at the stage where I need to "come out" as a confused questioning androgyne who might want to be with a man. I am at the stage where I need to meet other people openly and honestly and maybe discover that there are other androgyne people like me, whose sexual and gender issues mesh perfectly with mine, somewhere in the middle of the gender continuum. It is only through being honest with myself and in turn the people around me that I will ever be capable of even meeting anyone that might exist in the narrow demographic of potential lovers I might find.

I am at the stage where I must recognize that while I don't mind being single, that I want a companion, a best friend, a lover. I want someone who I can hold, and who will hold me. Someone who can trust that I'll be there for them, and that they will be there for me. I am at the stage where I don't want to be a recluse anymore (except where it suits my obsessive-compulsive artistic creative needs :) ).

Presenting in appearance and fashion, I am at the stage where I am trying to accept that somedays I like men's clothing and styles (sometimes harder than accepting the desire to cross dress, but easier the more I realize that the modern world includes some real mens fashion). That sometimes I like wearing pretty dresses, shoes, and jewelry; that pretty panties and lingerie are both luxurious and sensual, and that I don't have to want to be a woman to want to be feminized in appearance and behavior. And that more often than not I want to just dress and decorate myself to any degree masculine or feminine, without borders, as I feel might be fun, might express myself, or really, just be darn cute of neat looking. I am at the stage where I think I seriously need to start figuring out how to make my own clothes, a truly androgynous clothing line :).

I am at the stage where I feel as though I need to really start doing all of these things seriously. I am 34 years old and I feel still quite youthful in experience, though I can finally see a hint of the years creaping in. If I am going to have a truly androgynous, perhaps leaning slightly feminine appearance, I am at the stage where I feel like I need to do something fast. I am at the stage where I feel so much regret for not coming to grips with this sooner, younger, when I had a better body to pull off more extreme genderbending fashion. I am at a stage where I think about the articles that talk about what is okay for genetic women (and men to a certain degree) to wear at what age, about how short a skirt or wild of an outfit a 40 year old, 50 year old genetic women should wear. So what about an androgyne slightly feminine, but fairly muscular masculine guy? What style of dress will be okay for him to wear at 40? 50? I am at the stage where I worry about how I'll deal with feminine fashion desires when I am old?

I am at the stage where I know I need to calm down and try, as hard as it might be, to just live, just see what happens, find the support, and not worry what the neighbors, what society is going to think. I am at the stage where I definitely need the support and advice of all of you here at Susan's. I am at the stage where I should seek therapy to help with recurring bouts of depression that I am somewhat convinced are in part because of my androgyne issues.

I am at the stage where I am comfortable enough to share with all of you thoughts. feelings, and experiences I have never shared with anyone. I am at the stage where I share this here even knowing that this is a public space and I might be "discovered" before I am ready. I am at the stage where I realize I may never be ready, and I just might discover that I never actually tried. And I want to live.

---

Thank you all again so much for sharing. It helps so much to hear of other peoples unique experiences, trials, and victories. To know that you are not alone. The honesty on these forums has brought me to tears from time to time, welling up with emotions and a sense of contentment and wholeness I was beginning to wonder would ever come back. Thank you.

---

* Just learned this word after reading Brianna's quote, and you've got to use new words to make them part of your vocabulary.

QuoteNow that I'm feeling more comfortable in my own skin, I can start living like I want and not feel held back by gender roles

Nathan:
Yes the feeling of being held back by gender roles is a big one. I havent tried everything, and still feel a few things holding me back sometimes, but the big things that I have tried, have felt extremely good, and given me my first real tastes of choicing my own gender expression to match my gender mix, in the public. This realization and first feelings I have done so far I would never trade for anything else. I have never faced the terror like it before, yet felt the freedom from overcoming it so greatly.

QuoteI didn't at all mind being considered a sissy or queer except that I didn't like getting beat up.

Zythra:
I have been beat up 3 times also. And harassed a few times to the point of physically fleeing. Who gave them the right to commit violent acts on a person minding their own business, and doing something that didnt harm anyone else?


Madison

QuoteYet I'm still dealing with even understanding who or what I am enough to even talk about it out loud.
...
In the past few years I have spent much time considering and trying to determine what "that" is. And I am definitely at the stage where I still don't know, so I'm going to have to use that as the starting point for "coming out". I'm at the stage where I need to start coming out with the fact that I don't know, and hope that the people around me might help me find those answers.

Sounds to me the time to do some really frightening things. Some really big things (or small) that you just do, then worry about the results later. Frightening as in "some things you have always desired, but where afraid to try". And try not to prejudge how you think it will end up, nor how it will feel. But just allow you the chance to experiment more. And this time I mean in a public way. If worried about doing something big, do something smaller, less noticable.

QuoteI've been single and timidly trying to meet guys, almost entirely online for several years. But I've been too scared. Too scared what my family and friends would think if I were gay. Worse if they found out I was the stereotypical "woman" in the gay relationship. Then exposing myself to gay culture revealed that transgender wasn't on the radar of most gay men, often a blatant turn-off, solicting as much disdainful comments as I feared from the world at large.

One good thing is your single. Many are locked in battle with partners just finding out a hidden truth after X amounts of years. Then having to explore it first before attempting further relationships.

QuoteI am at the stage where I share this here even knowing that this is a public space and I might be "discovered" before I am ready. I am at the stage where I realize I may never be ready, and I just might discover that I never actually tried. And I want to live.

Its all to apparent to me, you know you have to do something more now. Its just a matter of deciding "what" that is. Make it very easy maybe. Pick like 3 absolutely easy things you can do this next week, that wouldnt be too hard, or 1 sorta hard thing.

If you cant think of anything, try something common.

QuoteI am at the stage where I feel as though I need to really start doing all of these things seriously. I am 34 years old and I feel still quite youthful in experience, though I can finally see a hint of the years creaping in.

This weekend is good enough as any to start trying something new, or scary.

Ken/Kendra

Excellent words of advice Kenda. 

Madison, you've made a couple of very open posts today...take that openness and run with it.  Explore new ideas.  Try something you've always wanted to try.  Be adventurous...mix plaids and polka dots...wear pink and green together...run with scissors...go swimming right after eating!!  Be aware of your surroundings (we don't want you to get hurt),  but otherwise, HAVE FUN!

Most of us have lived a life of repression (internally or externally forced) and/or confusion.  When a chance comes along to break free of some of those chains, serious consideration should be given towards taking it.  My hope for you is that you embrace life, have a blast, and live.

....Laurie

QuoteI have been beat up 3 times also. And harassed a few times to the point of physically fleeing. Who gave them the right to commit violent acts on a person minding their own business, and doing something that didnt harm anyone else?

I try to be compassionate and understand where people's fear comes from, and do what I can to educate, but I just don't understand violence. I never have.

I'm not much for religion or prayer, but I do wish for safety for all of us as we venture out into the world as who we are.

zythyra

I love you people!

LaurieO and Kendra you are my shordurpersavs (Short Duration Personal Saviors: a concept from the Church of the SubGenius)

Such true words Zythyra. And by the way, I absolutely adore your name! Is there a history there?

---

Somebody get Kendra a television show or something! If being a little more open can get this kind of dialogue going then it has got to be a good thing. It's always been obvious that coming out of the shadows is the only real answer (to a lot of things). And all we can do is keep doing. The best things in my life have always come from open honest relationships, but it is exactly the sort of violence (physical and mental) referenced in this post, that has held me back for so long. But no good can come from ignorance and denial. The path of truth may not always be easy or pleasant, but at least there, you know where you stand.

Quote from: madison on November 04, 2006, 02:59:27 AM
I love you people!

LaurieO and Kendra you are my shordurpersavs (Short Duration Personal Saviors: a concept from the Church of the SubGenius)

Madison...I am just amazed.  There are not enough words to say how much I admire your willingness to be completely open and share so much of yourself.  It makes me want to open more and share all of who I am.  It is very touching and humbling to be thought of so highly by you.

I'm not exactly sure whether being a shordurpersav is a good thing or not.  Seems like mighty big shoes to fill.  Last time I looked, I still couldn't walk on water.

Quote from: zythyra on November 03, 2006, 08:15:09 PM
but I just don't understand violence. I never have.

Nor do I.  The best I could come up with, is that those who enjoy it must really hate themselves.  They must be in such complete denial about so many things in their lives, that they truly don't have a clue about who, or what kind of person, they are.  While there is some pity, mostly there is disgust...I just can't stand to be around these kind of people.  Most of them are such jerks that it is hard to find any redeeming qualities at all.

........Laurie

Quote
...how much I admire your willingness to be completely open and share so much of yourself.

Don't be fooled; Willingness might be too strong, and slightly manic act of pleasant desperation might work better. Dumping one's thoughts anywhere to anyone is a truly frightening thing, and that is what I've been doing the past couple of days here. I believe I have made many lucid contributions to the forums in the past, but these "open" posts don't represent that. But what got me posting again, and dumping something more personal just kind of felt necessary, because some of the most valuable posts I have read here were from people who just shared of themselves. Those raw thoughts and emotions, from "real" lives, have done so much to help me see a glimpse of clarity in my own life.

Quote
I'm not exactly sure whether being a shordurpersav is a good thing or not.

Yeah I guess that is an obscure reference, but it sure makes me smile. The theory goes that it is just silly to think any one person, idea, goddess, whatever, could possibly meet the needs of being a life long personal savior. Your needs, fear, and troubles change from day to day, heck, moment to moment, and instead of a one true god type of thing, you just pick a short duration personal savior that you can turn to for help, or in this case, thank. Know that it is a good thing. Except that, having had to explain what a shordurpersav was to my shordurpersav was just too much, and now I have chosen a gin & tonic to be my shordurpersav. And I predict tomorrow morning it will be an iced espresso with a dash of cream, and maybe later in the afternoon it will be the first person to make me laugh during lunch.

QuoteSuch true words Zythyra. And by the way, I absolutely adore your name! Is there a history there?

When I transitioned in 1993, I tried various names starting with letter S, which is first letter of my birth name. Sally Ann, Sabrina, something else that I can't remember, none of them fit. So I constructed this new name using my male name as the basis. I really like that this name doesn't belong to either gender, like me :)

Zythyra

Quote from: madison on November 04, 2006, 03:57:12 AM

Quote
...how much I admire your willingness to be completely open and share so much of yourself.

Don't be fooled; Willingness might be too strong, and slightly manic act of pleasant desperation might work better. Dumping one's thoughts anywhere to anyone is a truly frightening thing, and that is what I've been doing the past couple of days here. I believe I have made many lucid contributions to the forums in the past, but these "open" posts don't represent that. But what got me posting again, and dumping something more personal just kind of felt necessary, because some of the most valuable posts I have read here were from people who just shared of themselves. Those raw thoughts and emotions, from "real" lives, have done so much to help me see a glimpse of clarity in my own life.

Madison,
Let me add my thanks for your openness.  Posts like yours are what makes this community what it is.  I could not agree more with your observation that a willingness to share our lives is not only a catharsis for ourselves but is a help to all the rest of us that share in similar feelings and experiences.  Being friends means letting ourselves be vulnerable to one another.  Doing that takes courage.  Thanks for being courageous.

Louise

Quote from: madison on November 04, 2006, 03:57:12 AM
now I have chosen a gin & tonic to be my shordurpersav

You have made a wise choice  ;)

Now that I am off the hook, (and thanks for the explanation, BTW), there is a freedom to be my regular old goofy self.  Gee...the pressure of trying to be wise and the fount of compassion has been relieved.  OK, I'm having fun with this, but I guess I was a little freaked out with the whole "personal saviour" thing...regardless of the temporary nature.  Don't feel bad about what you said, Madison, you paid me a compliment and I am the one who couldn't handle it.  It's those old feelings I've always had that I am not as _____ (fill in the blank) as everyone thinks I am, and one of these days they are going to find out.

I know that part of that stems from childhood where I believed (and still do) that I was never quite the son my father wanted me to be.  I know now that it was just another indication that I am not, and never have been, completely male.  I also know that I am not completely female...the classic TS "woman trapped in a man's body" does not apply to me either.  I know that I am more female than male, but not sure where that line is drawn (it tends to move around, which doesn't make it any easier to define).  It is probably somewhere between 60/40 and 67/33.

I was very fortunate to be there when my father died.  I still remember his last words to me.  I told him that I loved him and he said, "I love you too...always have".  I believe that he knew more about who I really was than I did at the time.  I believe that he is smiling now that I have quit hiding behind denial and fear, and began to embrace my true nature.  OK...not sure he would have smiled about the makeup and nail polish, but who knows...every now and then our parents surprise us.

Speaking of family...I will see my Mom, sister & brother-in-law (plus a lot of other extended family) next weekend as my nephew is getting married.  It will be the first time I have seen any of them since I shaved my beard and started letting my hair and nails grow longer.  I know there will be questions from Mom...haven't decided how much to tell her yet.  At 82, she doesn't need to deal with everything at once...but once the door is opened, it's hard to say where things will go.  Y'all be praying for me next Saturday.

.....Laurie 

Me................ ::)
I'm at the stage where i could accept a natural death this very minute...
I'm at the stage where I have enough willpower to go to sleep and get up tomorrow and try again!
I'm at the stage where i am in a holding pattern, waiting for something?
Not sure what?????????????
I'm at the stage where i simply do not know what tomorrow hold's for me i plan certain things and they happen but gender reality is not something i can plan or control.
I'm at the stage where my struggle is not with my physical looks or dressing or passing is the issue but rather the emotional concept of trying to control my gender be female in the male body live and function pretty much in what seems two different worlds...  That's dysfunctional isn;t it? :-\
I'm at the stage where I'm still a girl, still have a man's body (and pretty much always will) still have a closed minded resentful family that ironically JUST LOVES ME TO DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have a few friends who love and understand me for who i am and who i'm not...
I'm at a stage where the past month or so at Susan's has lifted my spirits somewhat and have given me new friends and support when i needed it and that stage is a good one for now!  :-* to all of you for that!
I'm at the stage where i cannot explain but but somehow am either waiting for or wishing for something "BIG" to happen just do not know what that entails or means?  I have been praying a lot over this past few years looking for guidance, asking for help, asking for answers, seeking something that maybe my Lord or angels can only help me with?
Stage 5 on the ts ricki scale!
R

Ricki...be careful what you ask for...The Lord does have a sense of humor.

Quote from: Ricki on November 04, 2006, 07:31:51 PM
I'm at the stage where I have enough willpower to go to sleep and get up tomorrow and try again!

I like this.  Hope you don't mind if I steal it.  It describes our daily struggles as "daily" yet provides hope for tomorrow.

Quote from: Ricki on November 04, 2006, 07:31:51 PM
I'm at the stage where i am in a holding pattern, waiting for something?
Not sure what?????????????
I'm at the stage where i simply do not know what tomorrow hold's for me i plan certain things and they happen but gender reality is not something i can plan or control.

Between the waiting here and the Stage 5 later, it seems like you sense some major change(s) coming to your life.  It is good to hear that you appear to be looking forward to them, rather than having a "sense of impending doom"...none of us can control what happens to us in our lives, all we can control is how we react when they do.  If you truly are waiting, when the time comes, embrace it.  Find the positives (however hidden they may be) and focus on them.  Who knows, could be your worst nightmare...you may have to move to Texas <<Laurie makes the sign of the cross with her fingers>>

Quote from: Ricki on November 04, 2006, 07:31:51 PM
I'm at the stage where my struggle is not with my physical looks or dressing or passing is the issue but rather the emotional concept of trying to control my gender be female in the male body live and function pretty much in what seems two different worlds...  That's dysfunctional isn;t it? :-\

The true crux of the matter.  Once the mind is at peace, the rest of the world falls into place.  As our feelings of self-acceptance become stronger, and our understanding of "this is me" increases in depth, they way we are perceived by others changes.  If one has complete acceptance of their womanhood and are convinced in their heart of hearts that they are female, and make no apologies for how they look, I believe most people will accept them as women, even if they look like body builders with beards.  (Arnold-etta the bearded lady?)   The problem comes when our self-doubt kicks in and we betray our need for acceptance from others.  When you depend on somebody else to make you happy, you insure that it isn't going to happen.

It's the old "Perception is Reality" thing.  Just as what we perceive about our surroundings becomes our reality, what we broadcast determines how others perceive us.  Most people can detect when others are being real or being false (fake).  The closer our actions match who we really are, the higher the level of acceptance from others.  This doesn't mean they have to like you, (some people, deep down, really are a-holes, and I genuinely accept the fact that they are), but they will accept the authenticity of your projection.

...Uhh..I think I got lost in that last paragraph...bottom line, the more you truly believe, the more you project that belief to others.  (Why didn't I say that in the first place??  Dunno, slow I guess)

Quote from: Ricki on November 04, 2006, 07:31:51 PM
I'm at the stage where I'm still a girl, still have a man's body (and pretty much always will) still have a closed minded resentful family that ironically JUST LOVES ME TO DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What's not to love, honey?  Oh yeah, just the fact that you believe you are a girl and want to dress in skirts.  They should be happy that you're not a murdering drug dealer..."I know, he's horrible and deserves to spend the rest of his life in jail...but at least he's a "real" man."  Sheesh...Hell, if you're gonna spend the rest of you life in jail, wouldn't it be better if you were gay?

OK, not nice to make fun of a tough situation, and I'm the last one who should give advice when it comes to dealing with your family.  But you are truly a nice person.  Why wouldn't anyone "love you to death"?  What they don't realize is that the reason you ARE such a nice person is BECAUSE you have those female qualities such as compassion and understanding.  If you behaved like the stereotypical High School "Jock" or (Southern Term Warning) Redneck, you would be such a jerk that nobody would want to be around.

Quote from: Ricki on November 04, 2006, 07:31:51 PM
I'm at a stage where the past month or so at Susan's has lifted my spirits somewhat and have given me new friends and support when i needed it and that stage is a good one for now!  :-* to all of you for that!

One of the reasons that Susan's is such a wonderful place is because people participate in the discussions and share their thoughts and feelings.  You are as large a reason for the success of Susan's Place as any of the rest of us.


On a side note...It's about time you added a "close up" picture.  Just a CYT, ain't cha? 

....Laurie

Kendra, I just wanted to let you know I'm really trying to take your advice to heart, and am going to try harder to take those steps that will help me be truer to myself, and find that true open place where I might find peace.

While a trivial thing, today when I got home from work, when I would typically change into something more comfortable, e.g. a comfy blouse and skirt or whatever, my sister had a friend over visiting. In the past, feeling too self conscious, or that it simply wasn't worth the hassle, I would have simply put on something more "gender appropriate," and forgone my comfort zone. Instead I chose to stick with my "real" habits and just be my "real" self. I threw on some casual attire I would normally hang out in, and just went on about my business of making an after work snack and drink. We all talked for a bit without incident and said good-byes, as it turned out she was already in the process of leaving.

Admittedly this wasn't a major step as this person has seen me in various states of en femme in the past, but nonetheless, I would typically have not changed, because of some self conscious notion that if I "dress" too often in front of my friends, people will think I'm obsessed. So while not the biggest life changing event, it is one little step towards just being.

Similarly, my other roommates girlfriend has seen me wearing various genderbent outfits, even complimented a jean skirt I was wearing one day when we went to the grocery store to pick up stuff for dinner. And yet, the other day, after putting together an amazingly cute sort of punky pink and black feminine ensemble, short black pants-pink cami under an off the shoulder black and pink striped sweater-black choker-black headband-big 70's style pink plastic earrings-light makeup-and black pumps, I actually debated changing into something more conservative when I remembered she would by that evening. While she already knew that I owned and wore feminine apparel, this particular outfit was just more femme enough to make me get self-conscious. Similar to the first example, I convinced myself of how silly I was being, and just went on with my evening. My roommate and his girlfriend came home, we made dinner, and she (quite a fashion junky herself) made special point to tell me how cute I looked. And it was so obviously earnest that I'm sure I blushed. Instead of experiencing some sort of psychic failure, throwing on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt, I got to have an ego building moment. She even went so far as to ask if I had a shirt she could borrow that might fit since she forgot to bring anything for work the next day.

I will try to keep you abreast of any further progress that may come from your well received advice. One thing definitely on the agenda is talking more with my sister and other roommate, who are well aware I will wear a wide assortment of fashion. The funny thing is while perfectly comfortable around them, it is sort of the elephant in the living room kind of situation where we've never really talked much about it and the larger implications it has on who I am.

Thanks again.

Today we have a very special guest. Our topic for today is how mix and match your powertools with this years fashion trends...

<practicing my opening dialogue to the show>

Just hope it's not Tina the Toolgirl Taylor...

I can see it now...how to hem your new evening formal using a Binford Pistol-Grip Soldering Gun, a Binford Model 2000 High Velocity Nail Gun and 2 spools of Pink silk thread. 

Oh Laurie you are a genius!  Your words elude a reply from me worthy to even be a compliment!
So this will shock you i will give a speechless second on your behalf (................................................speechless time here........................)
Okay! you're welcome! :P
Thank you soo much!
I do not have a power tool for the fashion trend although i know if you crank up your oven to 450 degrees or hotter use gasoline or something ignitable this help with heat distribution-, and throw in "tweeds" Plaids, and silk rayon blended fabrics, hmmm you could have a tasty little char broiled mini skirt after throwing the ashes into a leaf mulcher and adding some water and glue!
Hfm....
Tommy Hilfiger watch out!

Quote from: Ricki on November 06, 2006, 08:28:11 PM
i will give a speechless second on your behalf (................................................speechless time here........................)

This is something I thought I would never live long enough to see...Ricki speechless...LOL

Quote from: madison on November 05, 2006, 04:40:43 AM
The funny thing is while perfectly comfortable around them, it is sort of the elephant in the living room kind of situation where we've never really talked much about it and the larger implications it has on who I am.

Madison,  it truly is strange that our natural human tendency is to pretend that we do not see things like this...anything to avoid an in-depth discussion of awkward subjects.  I have found myself in several such situations that, looking back, can't believe nothing was ever said.  Subjects range from money to spousal behaviour to sex (or lack of).

There is a part of me that thinks this is pretty strange, yet, at some level, it is comforting and almost something to play with.  It makes me want to push the line to see just where it ends.  I have to admit that I sometimes I wear brighter colored eyeshade or nail polish just to see how people will react.  I know it sounds a little twisted (and not necessarily in the true spirit of androgyny), but everytime I do this and see how little people notice (or react) it makes it easier for me to be comfortable in public while dressed in a mixed or cross gender fashion.

Although I have known all my life that I am not fully a male (nor did I ever believe I was a female), it has only been recently that I have fully understood my gender identity.  It has been a journey of examination, introspection and experimentation.  A lot of it has been scary, as I didn't want to talk about the elephant, even with myself.  The amazing sense of peace and freedom that has come by actually dealing with this has made all of the hard work pale by comparison.

I hope that you also find that peace and freedom when you have your "elephant in the living room" talk with your sister and other roomate.

.....Laurie

LaurieO said:

Quote
Although I have known all my life that I am not fully a male (nor did I ever believe I was a female), it has only been recently that I have fully understood my gender identity.  It has been a journey of examination, introspection and experimentation.  A lot of it has been scary, as I didn't want to talk about the elephant, even with myself.  The amazing sense of peace and freedom that has come by actually dealing with this has made all of the hard work pale by comparison.

AMEN sister-man! I could have written those exact words. While convinced I have a long strange road ahead of me, just choosing to deal with it in any serious manner in the past year has affected me in ways that would be impossible to convey here.

So where am I at this stage, now? I am at the stage where I am truly beginning to find peers and friends that know! [wipes a joyful tear from eye :) ).

And I'm also thankful for your input LaurieO, you keep me from turning these topics turn into didactic excerpts from academic journals on gender-dysphoria. You are my shordurpersav again. :P

Quote from: madison on November 07, 2006, 12:50:17 AM
And I'm also thankful for your input LaurieO, you keep me from turning these topics turn into didactic excerpts from academic journals on gender-dysphoria. You are my shordurpersav again. :P

Aww Shucks, Maddy

While there is always a need to discuss these subjects in a serious and thoughtful manner, (and I try...I really try)...I just can't pass up an opportunity to be a smart-aleck when presented with an irresistable set up line.  Just my nature, I guess...not only was I blessed with the ability to transcend the male/female bipolar monopoly (just made that up, but it sounds good, doesn't it?) but I was also given an optimistic nature and an enlarged sense of the absurd.  My sweetie calls it "geek humor", but what does she know, look who she hangs out with...

As for the shordurpersav thing...I am honored (but not freaked out this time).  Maybe because I know that soon I will transgress the boundries of persav-hood and once again be relegated to the mere mortal I am while wearing this corruptable shell.  (OK, that was too much even for me).

I agree with you that finding peers and friends who really understand is a great thing...probably the main reason I spend so much time here.  There is a real sense of community and true friendship, even if it is with people we have only met online.  In some ways, friendships developed online have a greater depth, in part because you can share the secrets you have been hiding for years without having to look somebody in the eye.  I find it much easier to write my feelings and thoughts...taking time to choose the exact word...going back to rewrite sections that don't sound "right".  Telling these things to somebody in person, real time, unedited, is a lot harder and thus probably wouldn't happen.  Even with pictures, this is still an anonymous medium.  You know me as Laurie, you see a picture that may or may not really be me, you know I claim to live in the Dallas area...but for all intents and purposes, I could be anybody you pass on the street of your own home town.  That's a big difference than having to tell someone, face to face, that I REALLY LOVE having my nails painted and never leave the house without wearing ladies undies, (both of which are true, by the way).

As I continue my journey of self-discovery and quest for self-expression, it is a great comfort to know that there are some great people following a similar path.  There are many paths through the Land of Transgender...some lead us to crossdress...some lead us to a life opposite our birth sex...some just lead us on a grand tour, with stops in many areas...and some, lead us to walk that blessed edge of Androgyny.  The life of an Androgyne sometimes seems like a tightrope walk, with male on one side and female on the other, and the rope swaying, sometimes wildly, between the two.  It's not easy maintaining your balance, but to me, the insights and understanding, the strength and compassion, that our position brings is more than ample reward for the trials we must endure.  (Aw heck, there I go again...one should never wax poetic when they should be sleeping)

Anyway, for the support I have received, and the friends I have made here at Susan's, I am eternally grateful.

Love y'all.........Laurie

This is a nice post and you guys (ha-hum girls,...)say nice things.. That means a lot to us or at leats me that sometimes are coming in here for a little while to escape the world and reality and hear these things and read it!
thanks
ricki

Quote from: Ricki on November 08, 2006, 08:41:55 PM
This is a nice post and you guys (ha-hum girls,...)say nice things..

Gee...two guesses about who says nice things, and they are both wrong...  Sorry Ricki  ... I couldn't resist!

But it wasn't just to pick on Ricki that I posted to this...(sorry baby, but you were a second thought this time).  It struck me as I read "guys (ha-hum girls)"  that you could be both or neither, but each term by itself is incorrect.  I know I am not all man because I think and act in ways a woman would on a very frequent basis.  But I also know I'm not a woman either, so in a sense, I am neither one.  Yet, sometimes I am very manly and feel, think and behave as a stereotypical man would.  Other times, like tonight, I feel definately female, (I even noticed my walk had changed this evening, and not on purpose...not sure what is going on with that...Full moon tonight?)  Therefore, I am both.  So I am neither and both; male and not male; female and not female.  I am just me.  The feelings that evoke in me when I stop and think about it are really pretty amazing.  I mean, I know it can be hard (and dangerous) to to live so far outside the societal norms (they still ain't ready for a guy in a dress, no matter how cute her legs are), but when I think about the blessing of understanding both the male and female mind (at least to some extent) and the freedom (a lot of the time) to chose your actions based on how you feel and want, not restricted by what a Man would do (or what a Woman would do), it is a truly wonderful gift.  (Wow, a 5-line sentence, and it wasn't a run on...yee haw!)

......Laurie

Laurie, sweets!  You are righter than you know.. I mean my issues and desires will never change i know in my heart i should be a full woman its just distressing to have come the route i have (and yes i admit i am in a position to take full advantage of being a man or male on the outside..) Thing is i fear i have held too much in and not expressed enough of me as who i am.  I am a complicated woman let me tell ya, my mom called me a bitch once and i almost laughed then cried cause i thought it was the sweetest thing she ever said to me! hehe...
I need to develope my female inside in a way that reflects with the unchanged male, as i do that i think i will basially give off "hey I'm gay or enfemme queer" you now what i mean????  I actually at this point in my life do not fear that and think that a change or direction is better than none at all.. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated!  :o
Meshing the two will not be a complete act and as i have weaved my way through society as a guy on the outside i see some advantages to it and lots of disadvantages!
My old boss was a real old school red neck womanizer and the way he talked about women behind closed doors used to make me SICK!  I literally wanted to turn him in to our boss but at what cost would of that been to me????
Anyway.....................
I am convinced of my issues ts.. But as i transiton differently i may benefit from others who are androgenous-gender queer- is-you name it i could benefit form the info and help definately!  As i said my transition is more mental and emotional and somehow have to fit that into this hairy little body with that thing between the legs,, Agghhhhhhhhh
cyber kisses
R

Quote from: Ricki on November 09, 2006, 07:53:23 PM
I am a complicated woman let me tell ya, my mom called me a bitch once and i almost laughed then cried cause i thought it was the sweetest thing she ever said to me!

You can always count on Mom to give you a compliment and a put-down all at once.  So, tell me, are you?  I like the line my best friend uses when someone calls her that...she says "It's a family tradition and my mom would be very disappointed in me if I didn't carry it on." 

Quote from: Ricki on November 09, 2006, 07:53:23 PM
I need to develope my female inside in a way that reflects with the unchanged male, as i do that i think i will basially give off "hey I'm gay or enfemme queer" you now what i mean????  I actually at this point in my life do not fear that and think that a change or direction is better than none at all.. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated!  :o

Yes, I know exactly what you mean, and sometimes have a struggle with that too.  Unfortunately, our society has been conditioned such that being an effeminate man equates to being the "girl" in a gay relationship.  I know I am not gay...guys, as cute as they can be, just don't "light my fire".  It's more a mental thing...I am simply attracted to the female mind.  As far as which body that happens to be in...I have to admit that I have fantasies about both. 

So, how do I deal with my need to express my feminine side while knowing what people may think?  I would like to tell you that I just do it and don't worry about it, but that isn't entirely true.  Sometimes that is exactly what I do.  Other times, I try to convince myself I don't care, but I "chicken out" and either give up going where I had planned, or remove the item that causes me the greatest fear (currently my two biggest hang-ups are lipstick and breast forms).  Getting better about the lipstick, but still dealing with the other.  I tend to gravitate to wearing jewelry (rings, watch, necklace), less noticable nail polish (my favorite "safe" nail polish is Revlon Sheer Innocence #013...it is a pinkish translucense), and earth-toned eyeshadow and mascara.  I also have let my nails grow somewhat (not sure at this point just where I will settle on length).  This allows me to appear more feminine, while not trying to be fully female.  It also seems to me to not scream "gay" as some other options.  Add the fact that my hair is growing out some (while still displaying signs of big-time receding hairline and the obvious signs of a bald spot starting to show in the back) and it presents a more androgynous appearance than one of a "girly man".

Hope sharing of how I deal with my expression needs gives you some ideas.

Quote from: Ricki on November 09, 2006, 07:53:23 PM
Meshing the two will not be a complete act and as i have weaved my way through society as a guy on the outside i see some advantages to it and lots of disadvantages!
My old boss was a real old school red neck womanizer and the way he talked about women behind closed doors used to make me SICK!  I literally wanted to turn him in to our boss but at what cost would of that been to me????
Anyway.....................
I am convinced of my issues ts.. But as i transiton differently i may benefit from others who are androgenous-gender queer- is-you name it i could benefit form the info and help definately!  As i said my transition is more mental and emotional and somehow have to fit that into this hairy little body with that thing between the legs,, Agghhhhhhhhh
cyber kisses
R

Guys like your old boss are one of the main reasons I don't like "men".  Gay men are not much better (even if they are better dressed  :D), as they still retain the male mindset.

While I don't pretend to speak for anybody but me, it seems to me that transition is 90% mental.  Examining who you are and how you want to be perceived is an evolving process.  Additionally, learning to deal with presenting yourself in public is a building process...remember the first time you went out in public wearing one item, and how scary, but exhilarating, it was?  It wasn't that long ago that I wore a ladies watch and rings to the store for the first time...now, no big deal.  As I do not feel the need to begin HRT or obtain SRS, the biggest part of my "transition" is learning to feel comfortable in public.

Don't know if this helps any, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Love ya......Laurie

Laurie!  Yes it does very much soo!  You words mean a lot and i know there is a person behind them who cares to write them that helps too, there are others on this site that do that and i deeply appreciate the communication.
I understand what you are saying...

Quotet seems to me that transition is 90% mental.  Examining who you are and how you want to be perceived is an evolving process.

my look has to be emotional at this point which is still a bigger priority than ever changing my appearance as a male.. I have some stability issues that I have not overcome to a better % yet?  not oving myself completely, finding consistent happiness, etc...
The emotional transition will show and does in some ways in the guy in me.
As a guy i have been routinely called a prick or bastard which makes me think coworkers or my employees think i am a jerk or have an attidude?  I dunno that's comlicated quite a few years of military service have gven me a certain attitude when it comes to work, work ethics, how you present yourself, overcoming problems, being straightforward (which a lot of people are not good with) maybe that's why people confuse real pride and being stand-up as being a jerk or a prick! 
As a little boy / girl i was scared shy reserved afraid of the whole world as a teenager i got a little braver but in the military (gender issues completely aside here) being young, scared 18 years old the impact it made on me is not one of waste or loss, it instilled some things in me i may have never gotten out of life or regular civilian life!  PRIDE, UPRIGHTNESS, SENSE OF URGENCY, EXCELENT ETHICS FOR THE WORK OR JOB IM DOING, always having that sense of fear that makes you braver or taller as opposed to being scared!  fear is not a bad thing, it tingles your senses, makes you aware, sets you on a 110% edge.. it can be manipulated, anger is the same thing it can be manipulated, well and that's a abd thing cause i used that against myself too easily years back..
You know what I mean?
Anyway back to gender....

QuoteAs I do not feel the need to begin HRT or obtain SRS, the biggest part of my "transition" is learning to feel comfortable in public.

I agree not transitioning does not mean i am not trying to change my personna or way i appear just a lot of fine lines to work through, too easily its interpretted as gay or just enfemminate..that's not the image  want but it seems somehow one of those two will befall me....
I could wear a bra with nothing in it under two shirts and a coat and i am paranoid people can see it? dah!
Oh am i..hehe a bitch?  Well if you take the male things i'm accused of being a prick or bastard then i guess as a female i am (not a bitch i would hope) but bitchy i think???  ya probably to the immediate people around me i am more bitchy.. years passed and i changed?  I always used to be happy go lucky, always funny and upbeat but these past 10 years have been hard years and my personality changed some...I have good days and bad bad days i guess i tend to put an outward personality of being modoy or bitchy... :P
Thanks Laurie!  Have a slice of cake on me!
CYBER smooch!
R

Again I'm working my way slowly through some of the older topics that still have a lot of activity like this one so I'll share as much my current experience as possible.

The last couple days, I've been preparing as many people as I can in my day to day life for the behavioral changes I'm demonstrating now that I'm letting my two personas have free range of my life. What this means is now that I know why I had demonstrated sensitivity in the past, I can better utilize my time with people to converse with them in an appropriate manner. Most noticably my wife having known me for many years and interactions over those years have had a certain structure to them. Now that I'm taking a more understanding approach because I'm empowered by Mia's grace, I talk to her differently. She was not prepared for this change and its going to take time before we can solidify a new structure to our communication. A simply way to put it, shes got to get used to me being less confrontational so she doesn't have to respond with more confrontation. We don't expect things to just be the way they were before but we're growing as one couple and it strengthens our bond.

This new way of talking with people has had some interesting effects. I was in the office at work today talking with two gentlemen coworkers. These gentlemen were sitting on the far side of the office doing their work as they should be doing(no thanks to me), and I struck up a conversation with them both. By the time I had to go, the three of us were huddled together having a rather close and flowing conversation. My conversational graces this morning lured them over to a more intimate setting. When I say intimate, I mean a more close and personal experience. We definitely were not talking like 3 coworkers might normally have done. It was wonderful.

In case anyone was wondering what I did (not conciously I add) to lure them boys over to me was start at a volume they both could hear me at and subtlely lowered my voice slowly while softening my words until we were all huddled next to my desk all speaking softly. Neither of them noticed, neither did I that it was occuring, but we were having a meaningful and well presented conversation. If all my conversations with men and women are going to end up like that, wow, yeah I could get used to the graces of Mia running my social structure.

Where were you all my life Mia, oh thats right you've been there with me the whole time, I felt it, I just wasn't letting you say very much. Well Marq sees you now and we're glad we're one. Glee!

More to come as the changes are noticed.

-Us

Hey all,

This is only my second post on here....I made one back in September and have been lurking ever since!  I guess I'm still in the discovery phase as well....well discovery/confusion because I guess I'm still unsure about whether I'm an androgyne or TS!  I have been coming out to everyone in my circle(s) of friends/aquaintances (sp?), my classmates, my profs.  I mean I am lucky in the sense that I'm young(ish)...23....and am in a VERY progressive women's studies program that has a trans-woman as the head of our department and offers courses on transsexual/transgender issues (such as cultural production).  So the environment I'm in is SUPER supportive....I've just been talking with as many people as I can about this stuff as prepartion for the talk with my parents (oooooooh boy)!!

But yeah....definitely still confused....you see the idea of hormones has been on my mind for about 3 years now and I've decided that it's something I'm starting in April of next year (when school is done....I'm a pretty stressed out student, as is)!!  I'm so lucky being under-25 because I get to work with a youth medical clinic, which is a much more open/inclusive environment (in my mind) than a TS program run out of a hospital setting.  Basically I'm at a point in my life where my gender issues and the idea of "hormones" have been on my mind for WAAAAAAY too long that I can't put it off.  I plan on taking spiro/injections because I have a pretty long history of alcohol consumption (yes I know I'm only 23 but still) and I just would like to bypass as much of the liver as possible.  But basically, one of three scenarios is going to happen when I start hormones:

a) I'll say "wow....this is so NOT what I expected....I don't like this...I'm comfortable in the skin I have (biologically)" (this option is realistically the least likely of all three but still it is a possibility)
OR
b) I'll say "wow...I'm content with this....I'm happy with a completely inter-gendered/androgynous body"
OR
c) I'll say "wow...I REALLY like this and want to continue on to SRS"

Either way....hormones or not....I do plan on ridding my chest/stomach of most(read: all) of it's body hair because I don't really mind my facial hair THAT much...but the idea of having chest(breast?) hair and breasts is not attractive to me at all!

I guess I'm at a point where it's not about the clothing....cause I can get all dressed up to the nines "en femme" (which I do oh so rarely)....and some people are content like that....but when the clothes come off I still feel incomplete!

I have been experimenting my hair-style/clothing-style for a little while now and its been fun but it's not enough!  I currently have a super cute Riot Grrrl haircut (ie: mid-nineties Kathleen-Hannah-bikini kill style) and have found ways of including more skirts/feminine cut t-shirts/tight(er) clothing into my wardrobe, which usually garners some nice compliments!

Anyway...back to the issues of confusion....I guess what is most confusing for me is the adoption of a new name/new pronouns!  I mean, as it is, I have a pretty androgynous name (being Pat) but lately I've become more and more annoyed with hearing people refer to me by male pronouns.  I think what I'm going to decide is a switch of pronouns....and if/when I feel comfortable enough....the adoption of my new name (I have been toying with the idea of Kathleen (kate for short))!  Honestly,  Kathleen Hannah is one of my idols in life....so it would be my (personal) hommage to her...plus kate just sounds so cute!

You know I could probably post this on the transsexual board just as well but here it is!

Any comments would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers: Pat

Hey Pat/Kate...Welcome back you lurker you...LOL

Self discovery is what this is all about.  No one knows what tomorrow will bring, or how we will feel.  We can only guess based on how we feel today and felt yesterday.  Keep asking yourself those tough questions and look inside to try and find the answers. 

As far as the use of pronouns...people tend to use what they see or what they are used to.  A stranger will most likely use the one they perceive you to be...if you are dressed as a girl, and look and act like a girl, they will most likely call you "she"...if you are dressed as a girl, but look and act like a guy, they will call you whichever one pops into their head as they say it.  Don't take this too personally, as lots of men are called ma'am and lots of women are called sir.

On a personal level, I still struggle with who I am (you would think at 50 I would have figured it out by now)...but all I really know is what I am not.  I am not TS.  I am not all male, nor all female.  I am not exciting (yep, I'm really kinda boring) and I am not 6 feet tall (but almost).

Quote from: Ricki on November 10, 2006, 06:32:52 PM
Oh am i..hehe a bitch?  Well if you take the male things i'm accused of being a prick or bastard then i guess as a female i am (not a bitch i would hope) but bitchy i think???

Aww Ricki...don't sell yourself short, you know you are!   :-*

.....Laurie

Quote from: LaurieO on November 21, 2006, 03:18:24 PM
Hey Pat/Kate...Welcome back you lurker you...LOL

Self discovery is what this is all about.  No one knows what tomorrow will bring, or how we will feel.  We can only guess based on how we feel today and felt yesterday.  Keep asking yourself those tough questions and look inside to try and find the answers. 

Finding yourself in the world (who, what, where, why, and how) on a personal aspect and as well as where you fit in your relationships, communities, and universal day-to-day sense.

Quote
On a personal level, I still struggle with who I am (you would think at 50 I would have figured it out by now)...but all I really know is what I am not.  I am not TS.  I am not all male, nor all female.  I am not exciting (yep, I'm really kinda boring) and I am not 6 feet tall (but almost).

There are lots of young 50 year teenagers on this site , lol. Very wise teenagers that is.

Quote from: GQPAT on November 21, 2006, 10:21:45 AM
This is only my second post on here....I made one back in September and have been lurking ever since!  I guess I'm still in the discovery phase as well....well discovery/confusion because I guess I'm still unsure about whether I'm an androgyne or TS!  I have been coming out to everyone in my circle(s) of friends/aquaintances (sp?), my classmates, my profs.  I mean I am lucky in the sense that I'm young(ish)...23....and am in a VERY progressive women's studies program that has a trans-woman as the head of our department and offers courses on transsexual/transgender issues (such as cultural production).  So the environment I'm in is SUPER supportive....I've just been talking with as many people as I can about this stuff as prepartion for the talk with my parents (oooooooh boy)!!

You sound like you really are in a good position and taking great courses.

Quote
a) I'll say "wow....this is so NOT what I expected....I don't like this...I'm comfortable in the skin I have (biologically)" (this option is realistically the least likely of all three but still it is a possibility)
OR
b) I'll say "wow...I'm content with this....I'm happy with a completely inter-gendered/androgynous body"
OR
c) I'll say "wow...I REALLY like this and want to continue on to SRS"

Only nature knows the answer to that one, though you may have some hints.

QuoteI guess I'm at a point where it's not about the clothing....cause I can get all dressed up to the nines "en femme" (which I do oh so rarely)....and some people are content like that....but when the clothes come off I still feel incomplete!

I have been experimenting my hair-style/clothing-style for a little while now and its been fun but it's not enough!  I currently have a super cute Riot Grrrl haircut (ie: mid-nineties Kathleen-Hannah-bikini kill style) and have found ways of including more skirts/feminine cut t-shirts/tight(er) clothing into my wardrobe, which usually garners some nice compliments!

Clothing doesnt make the person, but the person picks the clothing. Experimenting with styles does help you try new things and decide what you like for that period in your life (styles change).

I don't know again.

Had a little time all alone today.  I dressed en femme today (no make-up, though, or shoes), and, while I agree with what Ken/Kendra said, I almost cried.  I wanted to cry because I'd been wanting to do that for a while and when I finally did and looked in the mirror and thought, "That's me.  Is it?  I don't know!  Am I happy with just this?"  All I could answer is the last one as "I don't think so."

I've been totally on thinking-too-much-about-gender mode the whole week, downloading podcasts, listening, surfing more for support groups.  I had my last appointment with my therapist for a while (found a new job and insurance is paused for the interim).  They knew it would be my last for a while, and had some awesome suggestions, but they all involved meeting people in the area and I really just can't even get out of the house most days.  I can't exactly just hang out in the gay bar and talk to someone and go, "Hey, can you help me with my gender-identity crisis?"  Can I?

No one thing solves everything.  I got a new job (which is awesome, FWIW) and thought my depression would lift with my medicine, and it did.  It is a lot better.  I'm not on the verge of suicide any more, but it's still there and all seems to center around identity.  My wife noticed my depressed nature yesterday, and commented, but she can't stand the idea of me dressed, so . . . how I can I confide in her when she can't even understand. 

Shortly after I told her, I did a full chest hair-removal thing and she hated it.  It's all grown back now and she always comments how she likes it.  I can't stand it.  Every time I take a shower I want to tear that forest down, you know.  It's just one more thing.

Maybe genderqueer is a thing for me that is in the middle, maybe cross-dressing and breasts and hairlessness.  I have no idea at all.

But I looked at myself in the mirror and even the bulge I had from the bad tucking job and my fat gut didn't detract from what I saw, which could be a step for me, but I have no idea.

What am I any more? 

d/b

So hmm...

Hey alls, back after a little stint away here...

Some very interesting things going on here on my side...

So the relationship with me and my girlfriend over these last week or so has sped up pretty nicely. We've been seeing each other more often and with greater detail...

And I find myself thinking less and less about my gender issues....

I wonder why that is.

She often speaks highly of my masculinity and my romantic nature. Perhaps this is granting my masculine side more confidence? Or maybe more completion as I feel "more of a man?" And she herself is pretty girly. Does this sate my feminine side perhaps? Does Vanessa live perhaps vicariously through her?

I'm definitely at a greater sense of peace with myself that I've been in a while. And its very strange! But also very lovely...

I wonder if I've moved to a new phase in my Androgyne experience. Folks with Significant Others... any thoughts on this?

-Nessa

Quote from: beatrix/dan on December 02, 2006, 11:43:52 AMI wanted to cry because I'd been wanting to do that for a while and when I finally did and looked in the mirror and thought, "That's me.  Is it?  I don't know!  Am I happy with just this?"  All I could answer is the last one as "I don't think so."

They call it the formative years for good reason. Sometimes it takes a while to know what you really want. And that's OK. It's a process.

I can understand how disappointing it can be to try a look and discover that it's not really you. But the thing is you tried it. This one wan't "it". You could see it as a failed experiment or you could choose to see it as one more thing that you know isn't you. Sometimes knowing what isn't you is the very thing to help you decide what is you. It's that search for "something else".

QuoteMaybe genderqueer is a thing for me that is in the middle, maybe cross-dressing and breasts and hairlessness.  I have no idea at all.

Could be. Just think of all the possible permutations of that seemingly simple concept. Crossdressing how exactly? Hairlessness where? B cup breasts or a little swelling or something that you can easily bind if you want or...? It's kind of like tweaking your computer's settings. Hmm, that wasn't quite right, what happens if I do this? The trick as I said before is to see this as always getting one step closer to you simply because you get a better idea of what isn't you.

QuoteWhat am I any more?

You are a person we enjoy chatting with and exchanging ideas with. Hang in there. "This too shall pass."

Quote from: Kelly on December 02, 2006, 07:19:25 PM
Right now I'm somewhere around the end of ignoring/beginning of discovery of myself phase.  I grew up in a conservative area so I hid a lot of my personality so I wouldn't make waves.  Now I'm trying to figure out who I am.  I'm not totally sure where I will end up finding myself in terms of TG, Androgyne, or TS.  But I'm sure that regardless of where I end up, I'll be a happier person for at least doing the soul searching and experimenting to find out who I am.

                  Peace and love,
                                       Kelly

That's a great outlook Kelly. I'm sure you'll discover that you're exactly right. Where you end up isn't really important. The freedom you get from allowing yourself to just be you and the insight you gain into yourself are the true rewards.

Quote from: Casey on December 04, 2006, 12:19:20 PM

They call it the formative years for good reason. Sometimes it takes a while to know what you really want. And that's OK. It's a process.

I can understand how disappointing it can be to try a look and discover that it's not really you. But the thing is you tried it. This one wan't "it". You could see it as a failed experiment or you could choose to see it as one more thing that you know isn't you. Sometimes knowing what isn't you is the very thing to help you decide what is you. It's that search for "something else".

Sorry, let me be clear; I liked what I saw, but I wasn't sure that was enough.  I want to be more feminine in appearance.

It's not that I like to over analyze (okay, I do, sorry), but as I age, (I just turned 28), I would have figured that I would have figured this all out.

I know that's not true for everyone; or it may not even be true for anyone (!), but it's just what I think right now, without any context.

But that's where I'm at in my experience.  Which is the topic of the thread.   ;)

Thank you for your advice.  I need some work; perhaps it relates to my poor self image (and health), and so as I make progress down that road (again!, I got frustrated after 2 months of plateu on my weight loss and gave up on, well, near everything, and that was part of my job-based depression anyway), perhaps that will help.

And I like exchanging ideas with everyone here, as well.  Thank you.  That made me feel better tonight.   :)

I know this will pass, but it's hard when you're in the middle of "this."  I just want to make progress. 

That and I don't want to lose my wife.  I don't know if she'll take it well if I decide that I want some breasts; I don't even know how I'll take it.  It was rough when I told her that I thought I may be a crossdresser (but that's a whole other thread).

One day at a time; Alocholic's Anonymous had that part right. 

Though I've spoken with one person here at Susans about coming out a little more.  I really can't keep this part of me seperate from the rest any more.  I've already almost told all of my friends, despite the moritorium against that from my wife. Even her having a really good gay friend doesn't loosen that feeling for her.

Like Kelly, I grew up in a weird area (this is farm country, mostly, aside from Chicago a couple hours away).  I kept a lot to myself and didn't think  much about any of this until recently; then it hit me like a ton of heavy things. 

I'm not one to believe in repressed memories, but as I've thought more about this, the more some things come to mind, like how I tried to try my mom's bra on once on a whim and, even at age 12 or 13, I was way bigger than her.  So the whole episode was kind of pointless.  Does it mean anything?  Who knows.

And yet . . .  16 years later . . .

(On a completely off-topic but not worthy of it's own topic note, does anyone else think it strange that nearly ALL of the advertisements I see when I'm on myspace involve Lane Bryant . . .)

thanks

b/d

I'm wearing a boob flattening sports bra to work and a man's muscle shirt.

:D

Chunk.

I am without question in the androgyne category.  I had my discovery phase and I definately had the time in my life where I was very androgynous in the way I looked (throughout high school and college).  The thing is I am older now, and as much as I miss who I was then, I have to figure out who I am now.  I can no longer be that person.
I am still an androgyne in the way I think and behave.  I cannot escape this.  But I am differant from who I was.  Experience has made me more aware of who I am, but I need to find where I will be.  I am still trying to find what I am comfortable with.
That is the weird thing with androgyny, is there is no real guidebook for the individual.  That is the difficult part, finding what you are comfortable with in the contexts of oneself.  I cannot dress the same way some of my androgyne friends do, but that is because my androgyny is a bit differant.  I tend to be more shy, more reserved, basically more ambiguis, where they are more apparent and out there with thier androgyny and bend the very rules the gender binary.  This may have to do with the fact they are very sexual, and I am asexual.  I rather be mousey and endearing, but completely nonsexual in my androgyny, because that is how I feel.

The thing is I am comfortable with being an androgyne.  I have had my moments where I hated it, but now I do not think I would have it any other way. 

Also I would not call this a new category, it is for Susans, but androgynes have been around for ages. 

Quote from: seldom on December 08, 2006, 03:13:08 AMAlso I would not call this a new category, it is for Susans, but androgynes have been around for ages. 

Absolutely right Seldom.  Looking back through history, it would seem that androgyny has been around and indeed cherished by many cultures for a long time.  The bi-gendered system is, in my opinion, in urgent need of update as it has fallen behind many other areas of social progress.

Quote from: beatrix/dan on December 04, 2006, 10:13:38 PMIt's not that I like to over analyze (okay, I do, sorry), but as I age, (I just turned 28), I would have figured that I would have figured this all out.

Don't worry, you will figure it all out several times and then realize, each time, that "Oops, that's not it either"  Now that I'm a wise old soul of 50, I've come to realize that the more I learn, the less I know.  I'm afraid I'm gonna learn so much I'll be a completel idiot  :o

Quote from: seldom on December 08, 2006, 03:13:08 AMThat is the weird thing with androgyny, is there is no real guidebook for the individual.  That is the difficult part, finding what you are comfortable with in the contexts of oneself.  I cannot dress the same way some of my androgyne friends do, but that is because my androgyny is a bit different.

Exactly...the one thing you can bet your life savings on is that any guidebook for Androgynes will be completely wrong 99.99% of the time.  It may be right for you (and parts may be right for others...almost), but sadly, it is an individual journey of self-examination, full of learning by trial and error.  The best we can do is to support and encourage each other (Thank you Susan's!!) and maybe we can save someone from a mistake or two along the way by sharing what has happened to us.

Quote from: chunk on December 05, 2006, 01:28:28 AMI'm wearing a boob flattening sports bra to work and a man's muscle shirt.

Those with straight hair always want curls.  Those with curly hair always want it straighter.  Wish I had that problem were I had to wear a boob flattening sports bra to work...sheesh

.....Laurie

QuoteIt's not that I like to over analyze (okay, I do, sorry), but as I age, (I just turned 28), I would have figured that I would have figured this all out.

Amen to that. At nearly 40 one would think one would get these kinds of things figured out.

QuoteThose with straight hair always want curls.  Those with curly hair always want it straighter.  Wish I had that problem were I had to wear a boob flattening sports bra to work...sheesh

I'll admit it. Boobs are fun. You can squish 'em. You can let them out for the day. Men have entire discussions with them. You can even name them. Stretching a t-shirt across them with some message is fun. ...somebody should probably take them away from me as I obviously have no clue here as to  :police: 'correct breast protocol'. LOL.

Chunk