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I'd like to believe that my life isn't so pointless, and that my friends aren't all just stubborn, but I can't. It always comes down to that I can't prove that God DOESN'T exist, the same way I can't prove that Unicorns don't exist.

Besides, I like argueing. :)

You can't prove unicorns don't exist because they do exist. I can't confirm the god part though.

Quote from: KarenLyn on March 21, 2009, 09:45:46 PM
You can't prove unicorns don't exist because they do exist. I can't confirm the god part though.

Nya?

Sence when?

Lack of god doesn't mean life is pointless.

And anyone who proves the existence of god must then prove the existence of Santa Claus. ;)

Since always. There's one who visits my back yard every few weeks. He has a thing for millet sprouts. I hope he keeps coming back cuz everything in my garden grows so much better since he started visiting.

If you need proof of God then you've lost the entire point in believing. :P

Just look in the mirror.  There is proof of God.  Look at a sunset.  Look at a smiling child.  And it is said, seek and ye shall find.  Goes for God, unicorns and life on other worlds.

Quote from: TamTam on March 21, 2009, 09:55:49 PM
And anyone who proves the existence of god must then prove the existence of Santa Claus. ;)

Wait... you mean he doesn't exist.... Dang.  ???

Janet

Quote from: TamTam on March 21, 2009, 09:55:49 PM
Lack of god doesn't mean life is pointless.

And anyone who proves the existence of god must then prove the existence of Santa Claus. ;)

Proof of god: the universe (what are the odds that Earth would be in the one perfect spot to hold life, yaddayaddayadda)
Proof of Santa: He leaves presents under the tree every year! And he signs his name! ^.~

Quote from: Jake Grimm on March 21, 2009, 10:20:31 PM
(what are the odds that Earth would be in the one perfect spot to hold life, yaddayaddayadda)

Quite good, actually. ;)

Quote from: TamTam on March 21, 2009, 10:22:07 PM
Quite good, actually. ;)

Accually, 100%

If it hadn't worked out that way, nobody would be here to observe it.

I was talking to God just the other day and asked the very same question.
Noting that I'm the Easter Bunny, God replied, "Why of coarse me dear lass. now hop along and paint up some hard boiled eggs to celebrate the death of my only begotten son. Be sure to hide them well....Quick like a bunny." I replied,"Eggs again? Damn!" Just then a bolt of lightening singed my cute lil' cotton tail.  :laugh:

"Faith" means, "no proof available" - by definition.  And you can't prove a negative, you must have been on a field trip for that fifth grade science class.

Proof is not the point, one either believes or does not. One is free to do either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayat_an-Nur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayat_an-Nur)

Maybe God (she) is an extraterrestrial. My chances of seeing an E.T. are much better. As far as the planet earth being in a near perfect position in this solar system to support life, it's impossible for here not to be this and other planets similar. Think of the odds. We are talking billions to one however there are trillions of solar systems. Spirituallity makes people feel good and keeps them somewhat moral. If we did not have the threat of Satan we may be alot worse. Would a good and loving God allow people to treat each other the way we do? Many wars have begun and continued for many years simply over religious beleifs.

Quote from: Heartwood on March 21, 2009, 09:47:27 PM
Nya?

Sence when?

Since the rhinoceros.  Warriors returning from the crusades referred to an animal somewhat like a horse, but had a horn on its snout.  The middle east had no unicorn myth.

Also most dragon myths seem to come from China and far east because of the likelihood of naturally exposed dinosaur bones and the extrapolation of those bones into actual animals.

And as has been said, you cannot prove a negative anymore than you can prove innocence, only lack of guilt.

The main article of religion is faith in the unknowing.  Belief without proof.

Your life has meaning only if you say it does.  And your reasons for that could be anything.  As long as you believe you have a reason for being, then you do.

-Sandy

You can't prove that god exists. You can't prove that god doesn't exist.

You can apply some cold logic to it and suggest the existance of god as written in the bible is very unlikely (though the christians have also done some nifty logic to prove the existance)

For example, In the bible God is said to be omnipotent and benevolent. Logic suggests god can't be both because there is suffering in the world. If it was benevolent and omnipotent would there be suffering? Absolutely not. Therfore it either is not omipotent or not benevolent. (unless some suffering is good for humans, perhaps a benevolent god would allow it for that reason..hmmmmm  :D)

Personaly I think belief in the existance of god comes down to faith. I don't have any, you are not going to prove god exists to me. I don't think anyone is deluded for believing in it, I think a lot of humans have a need for 'spirituality' in their lives and it fills a gap. I fill my spiritual hole in other ways like altruism and good food and gardening. I do think it is idiotic to believe in a religion......

Simple.
The word "god" exists.
The concept of "god" exists.
So regardless of whether or not there is a god out there, god "exists" as a word and as a concept.

Personally, I am glad I do not believe in a God who is controlled by anyone's human logic.  If we see a paradox, then perhaps the limitations are ours.  Unless you truly believe YOU are omniscient.

Some of the best known philosophers, such as St. Anslem of Canterbury argued the existence of God (often called the ontological argument) with statements such as:

    1. God is the entity than which nothing greater can be thought.
    2. It is greater to be necessary than not.
    3. God must therefore be necessary.
    4. Hence, God exists necessarily.

or,

   1. God is something than which nothing greater can be thought.
   2. God exists in the understanding.
   3. It is greater to exist in reality and in the understanding than just in understanding.
   4. Therefore, God exists in reality

You might also look to the works of René Descartes.  Here is a wonderful quote by him.

Whatever method of proof I use, I am always brought back to the fact that it is only what I clearly and distinctly perceive that completely convinces me. Some of the things I clearly and distinctly perceive are obvious to everyone, while others are discovered only by those who look more closely and investigate more carefully; but once they have been discovered, the latter are judged to be just as certain as the former. In the case of a right-angled triangle, for example, the fact that the square on the hypotenuse is equal to the square on the other two sides is not so readily apparent as the fact that the hypotenuse subtends the largest angle; but once one has seen it, one believes it just as strongly. But as regards to God, if I were not overwhelmed by philosophical prejudices, and if the images of things perceived by the senses did not besiege my thought on every side, I would certainly acknowledge him sooner and more easily than anything else. For what is more manifest than the fact that the supreme being exists, or that God, to whose essence alone existence belongs, exists?

Of course, neither of these is perfect, and and it is a large subject, the source of centuries of debate and the spilling of much ink.


Personally, I am more convinced by the teleological arguments, often classified as arguments by design.  These take the form of something like:

(1) Entity e within nature (or the cosmos, or nature itself) is like specified human artifact a (e.g., a machine) in relevant respects R.
(2) a has R precisely because it is a product of deliberate design by intelligent human agency.
(3) Like effects typically have like causes (or like explanations, like existence requirements, etc.)
Therefore
(4) It is (highly) probable that e has R precisely because it too is a product of deliberate design by intelligent, relevantly human-like agency.

The discussion gets much more complicated from here.  But this will get you started if you really want to.  If you are looking for something quick and easy, it is not going to happen.

IMHO, in observing this world with my human mind, I believe it is vastly more probable that God exists than not.  That is as close to proving God as logic will ever take us.  The rest is faith, but it is not, for me, a faith that is contrary to reason.  Rather, reason simply gives us a springboard for talking about the things of faith.  This is theology, "faith seeking understanding."  But now we are into a different argument for a different discussion.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

It would be better to start with something simpler like proving your own existence. But that's not easy either.

Quote from: Lisbeth on March 22, 2009, 05:02:00 PM
It would be better to start with something simpler like proving your own existence. But that's not easy either.

Quite easy, actually.  It is impossible to prove your own existence, by definition.

-Sandy

Sorry, three's no proof that God(s) exsit(s).  I'm a deeply, passionately religious person in my own way, but I don't have any evidence to prove the existence of my Gods.

I suppose you could pursue gnositc theism (seeking personal experiece of the Divine through prayer, meditation and ritual) and see how you got on with that, but speaking personally it doesn't help with the meaninglessness issue.  After all, you can simply ask "what is the point of a God's existance?" and you're right back where you started!

The meaning in my own life is derived from the same places it came from when I was an atheist: from my interactions with my environment, from the impact I have on the experiences of other beings, how I manifest in their awareness.  I'd suggest reading some good atheist philosophy, like the works of Bertrand Russel, if you're questing for meaning.

I can disprove my own existence!

A little of the subject but Satan may be female. i.e. "God hath no rathe like a women's scorn."

If god (yhvh and/or allah) exists and is omnipresent, omnisentient, omnipowerful and has a great and ineffable plan for all living beings like many christian (and jewish and muslim) people would suggest, then everything is and always will be "as it should be" and simply by doing what we feel the drive to do is conforming to "god's will". Even if it is against scripture.

Quote from: Miniar on March 23, 2009, 06:52:49 AM
If god (yhvh and/or allah) exists and is omnipresent, omnisentient, omnipowerful and has a great and ineffable plan for all living beings like many christian (and jewish and muslim) people would suggest, then everything is and always will be "as it should be" and simply by doing what we feel the drive to do is conforming to "god's will". Even if it is against scripture.

Yes and No. From a Muslim perspective we have freedom of choice so we can do what we wish, however it is up to God and God alone to judge us on our intention and what we have done.

I said many, not all..
The point being that, if that idea of god is factual than our perceptions of "choices" are false as we're already pre-programmed with the nature to make certain choices and as such our lives aren't a path with crossroads, but one big line of dominoes chips where the last act makes the next act an inevetable one by our sheer nature.

Saw this once, and wanted to share it here:

QuoteChallenge to God

A college professor, an avowed Atheist, was teaching his class.  He shocked several of his students when he flatly stated he was going to prove there is no God.  Addressing the ceiling he shouted: "God, if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform.  I'll give you 15 minutes!"

The lecture room fell silent.  You could have heard a pin fall.  Ten minutes went by.  Again he taunted God, saying, "Here I am, God.  I'm still waiting."

His count-down got down to the last couple of minutes when a Marine just released from active duty and newly registered in the class walked up to the professor, hit him full force in the face, and sent him ass over tea-cups from his lofty platform.  The professor was out cold!

At first the students were shocked and babbled in confusion.  The young Marine took a seat in the front row and sat silent.  The class fell silent... waiting.

Eventually, the professor came to, shaken.  He looked at the young Marine in the front row.  When the professor regained his senses and could speak, he asked:  "What's the matter with you?  Why did you do that?"

"God was busy.  He sent me."

I think that is referred to the sharing of faith!

Quote from: Lisbeth on March 22, 2009, 01:34:45 PM
You can't prove that god exists. You can't prove that god doesn't exist.

In my house I set the temp where I am comfortable, but some claim it is too cold, while others say it is too hot.  But everyone of us feels the exact same temperature, but our bodies register it differently. 

I feel close to god, and I believe I have seen his miracles.   But I believe.  Others may take the same information and get down and proclaim their belief ---  or not.   My definition of proof is the same as the temperature.  I am comfortable with what I believe, while others may not feel or "Believe" the same thing,

Daisy

P.S. The unicorn is in my avatar so it exists...

Quote from: Osiris on March 21, 2009, 10:07:50 PM
If you need proof of God then you've lost the entire point in believing. :P

I think this is hitting the nail on the head.

I could try to prove my gods exist (I'm a polytheist), but that would negate my faith. True faith, for me at least, requires the presence of doubt. If I had proof, there would not be any faith.

I must admit that many atheists offer sound logic for their arguments. That said, I think that agnostics seem to have even better logic as theirs seems (again, to me) to acknowledge that these things can't be known or dis/proven.

If it could be proved that my gods do not exist, that would be disappointing but it wouldn't really change my way of life (religion). What it would change would be the details of my religious beliefs. The details of my religious practice (my way of life) would not really change.

What do we know about God that would allow us to infer anything at all?  One can say a lot of things about God, but those don't properly narrow things down.  If you could pigeonhole God, you wouldn't really be talking about God at all, but some mere something to which you've applied the name.  If you can say convincingly not only what God is but also what God isn't, we may be able to begin.  But for all the things people have said over the ages, I don't think they were really addressing the matter at hand at all; necessarily, they never understood what they were talking about.  And when we do think we understand, all we have is something we've somehow managed to cram into our heads - which isn't saying much. :P

-Celia

Some people's concept of God is more like "everything in the world and/or love" or something rather than an actual being.  In that case, it just depends on how spiritual you are and how you label things.
We can quibble over that line of thinking, but why bother when there is simpler proof right here on the forums?  Proof right in plain sight; I can't believe you haven't noticed that I, God, post on this website regularly.  Kat (tekla) is vice god (determine that however you wish), and if tekla doesn't like that (I just assigned it in this post!  I got power!), you can take the position.

QuoteI'd like to believe that my life isn't so pointless

You life being pointless has nothing to do with beliefs. Enjoy life while you have it because it will end. There are no walls around death. To contribute to the human race makes life meaningful.

I can't prove that god exists, nor that he/she/it does not. And, as many others have said, it's impossible to prove that anything actually exists, if we take everything down to its roots. Science exists within the context of our world... change one thing early in a strain of scientific theories which build upon each other, and you render every subsequent theory untrue. Perhaps, in a scientific context of which we are not yet aware, it is quite possible for a higher power to exist. However, I'm not entirely certain that it's impossible within the current context.

I believe that nothing we see here on earth could have occurred in the absence of a higher power. I have no idea what or whom that higher power may be. I call myself a Christian because I believe in Jesus Christ as savior, but even that belief has become tenuous over the years, as I have learned more about the world. And the older I get, the more afraid I become that I've gotten it all wrong... and yet, I'm more afraid that I have it right, and that people I love will be lost in their unbelief.

I wish it were possible to prove god's existence and nature. I would be first in line to find out the truth, regardless of cost.

SD

the whole "you can't see wind but you know it's there" thing has been done to death. there is no objective evidence for any god. you're going to get told about the burden of proof fallacy which you just committed and also that you cannot prove a negative claim. congratulations! you guys have committed 3 logical fallacies in one thread!

I can't prove God exists nor can anyone else... If people want to believe or not so be it... As it clearly states in the Quran there is no compulsion in religion.

However... Two nights ago I was messing around with a couple of Muslim friends and as a joke we were using a random number generator to pick ourselves psychiatric disorders from DSM-IV-TR (we have a psychologist in the house!)... So I input numbers 1 to 730 (pages in the book) with one single possible result.

Half jokingly I said Bismillah (in the name of God) and pushed "enter" and out came page 580 - "Gender Identity Disorder"... :o

Coincidence? Who knows, it shocked the hell out of me at the time! ;D

I cannot. Might have to ask David Kuresh or Joseph Smith or Jim Jones.