Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I had this idea that androgynes are particulalry spiritual beings and as such would often be into religion, but I think in reality we are prone to be being a bit more weary of religion than the common shmo and perhaps embracing a more spiritual essence rather than a religious bent or maybe none at all.

I was raised to be a catholic and stopped personally believing when I was about 14. Since then I have felt a spirituality of sorts, along the lines of animism (not animalism  ::)). Now days I concentrate on food being good for the soul and being a parent and this gives life a very different meaning for me. Yet I still feel a capability to be very spiritual, I just don't think about it anymore. I get my spiritual needs meet by simply living life.

Do you feel a connection between being androgyne and your spiritual self? i.e. is is a spiritual thing for you? Do you follow a religion? Any other comments relating to religion and androgyne gender?

I don't feel like my spirituality has anything to do with my gender, yet in some ways I find myself seeking that harmonising/leading/counselling role such as transgenders in native american tradition.


I find it easy to imagine a divine being that is not male or female, they would simply be the reflection of myself.
God made adam as an aspect of his image. God made me as a reflection of hir self  (I don't believe that, just putting it out there for thought and it sounded poetic to my inner ear ;))

I believe that God made me the way I am, and gave me specific spiritual responsibilities concerning my condition for a reason.  Does that count?

I've spent a lot of energy thinking about god, since it seems to be a very important thing for people.

I, personally, don't really care. If god wants something from me, he would tell me. If there is or not a god is irrelevant, we're still stuck here.
There might or might not be an other life, then making this life better for everybody is my top priority. This life suck because the great majority still believes there's something "out there" instead of focusing on what's happening "right here".

Finally, god is everything of everything. There can't be god if there's no thing, because if there was nothing, who was phone ?

For many years I tried really hard to believe in god. Eventually, though, my quest for mainstream religion petered out, partly because I just couldn't make myself believe that it was true, and partly because I kept running up against a small-minded god with the same petty grievances and prejudices and insecurities as people. I was somehow hoping that "god" was above all that.

Not willing to totally give up, I then spent the next several years pursuing a more "spiritual" path. You know, one that was more people-friendly and inclusive. But I still had issues with basing my world view on any belief system that relied on fantastical stories that totally defied logic, as well as the laws of physics.

Ironically, my lifelong quest for spiritual meaning eventually led me to atheism. I used to think that I had to believe in some kind of metaphysical reality in order to truly experience the magic of life, but alas, I've found that for me, approaching the world around me from an inquisitive scientific perspective has opened up a whole world of magic for me that I never would have imagined when I was trying to find meaning through various religious venues.

I don't mean to offended anyone who adheres to traditional religion, but that's basically how the whole religion thing has panned out for me.

 

I think I am a spiritual person, but not from the sit in the pews every time church is open perspective. I do believe in God, and I believe that he wants me to follow His word and be a good person.

For me, acts of charity/kindness trump throwing money in the plate on sunday, so (for example) instead of giving solely to the church 1/2 of what I give goes to the local food bank, since that actually feeds people. Actions instead of gestures.

I've seen too much evidence of God in my own life to simply dismiss Him as some abstract thing, although I won't lay out examples of that here.

I consider myself a spiritual person. I'm not sure this is because of gender choice or what. But understand has been a life long quest that began with catholicism ( to much guilt and suffering) then to buddism and zen ( to much contemplation ans self sacrifice) then Transendental meditation ( a very helpfull tool ) and now Spiritual Humanism ( believing in mandkind and its inate goodness and trusting people and science to solve the worlds problems http://www.spiritualhumanism.org/map.htm (http://www.spiritualhumanism.org/map.htm)

Quote from: Nicky on March 23, 2009, 10:11:07 PM
Do you feel a connection between being androgyne and your spiritual self? i.e. is is a spiritual thing for you? Do you follow a religion? Any other comments relating to religion and androgyne gender?

For me, there isn't a connection between my gender identity and religious identity or practice. I was raised Catholic, but was never confirmed. This was back in the days when first communion was done before confirmation. I became agnostic for most of my high school years before joining a United Church of Christ (UCC) congregation in 1988.

In my twenties I became largely agnostic again, followed by a re-interest in Christianity as I neared 30. From there it was into Paganism (primarily Wicca, but I was also introduced to Asatru around this time) and then Soto Zen Buddhism.

My personal religion these days is an amalgamation of of these, and I call myself a Buddhistic Christo-Pagan. Lately, I've been attending a Unitarian Universalist church.

I am spiritual more then religious.  My Faith is more important and more comprenhisive then anything I've been told in church although I've herd things said by priests & Bishops that lined up with what I already understood.  but sometimes things they say go against my beliefs so I through those idears out the window if it doesn't fit my beliefs of an all loving multi gendered god sometimes I feel god is leading me toward my transationing as if it's part of gods plan for me to shake things up a bit.
Where as the church has its own idears of what I'm suposed to conform to then again the church has kicked many people out only to later make them saints and thats how its been since Long before Jesus. btw i'm tecnickly catholic

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on March 24, 2009, 10:01:26 AM
I was raised Catholic, but was never confirmed. This was back in the days when first communion was done before confirmation.

Did they change it? Weird. I remember being confirmed was like becoming an 'adult' in the church. I was confirmed. Sometimes I feel tainted by it but I don't know why. My wife teases me that I am still a catholic whether I like it or not becuase I have been marked as one of them. It did not mean a lot to me except you get your own confirmation name, mine was Edwood. I choose it because my uncle was called Eddie and I liked Mr Ed the talking horse. I guess this is as good a reason as any  ;).

Apparently, the way it's done now (or so I'm told) is that confirmation is done before first communion, because only confirmed Catholics are elligible for communion.

makes sense I guess, if any of that symbolistic canabilism makes any sense. I always thought the waffers would be good in icecream.

Quote from: Nicky on March 24, 2009, 02:32:07 PM
It did not mean a lot to me except you get your own confirmation name, mine was Edwood. I choose it because my uncle was called Eddie and I liked Mr Ed the talking horse. I guess this is as good a reason as any  ;).

I'm not exactly sure what confirmation is (even though I was baptized Catholic when I was a baby), but Ed Wood (http://"http://www.bfi.org.uk/whatson/ed_wood_0") is certainly a cool name.  :D

I never even thought of that! Thanks.

Coincidence.....?   :laugh:

probably not  ;D

If you are interested in confirmation...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation)

Well, I'm not planning on running out and getting confirmed any time in the near future , but thanks for the link. I may not be particularly religious, but I do like to learn about it.

I also like some of the paraphernalia. I still have my rosary from when I was a kid (and things were nicely made). I've always thought one of these (http://"http://www.patronsaintmedals.com//285_PATRON_SAINT_MEDALS_ST_JOAN_OF_ARC.asp") would be cool too. Not so much because I'm into patron Saints or anything, but because it is now widely believed that Joan of Arc was probably transgendered. I guess the irony that the inquisition barbecued her for cross dressing probably plays some part in the fascination for me too.

Oh yeah, I also have an androgyne Jesus card.  :)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3566%2F3382373748_3e3162702b.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=1ffad92a15574484576f7a5b091186d000d1c5cf) 

That is awsome! Everyone should have an androgyne Jesus card   :laugh:

I'm rather fond of the rosary, I like the design of it that invites you to fiddle with the beads. As a meditational device I think they are facinating.

Yeah, I like my nice rosary and I can see where it would be useful for that purpose.

I also have a cheap blue plastic rosary. It's not much of a keepsake, nor would it be very gratifying to fiddle with. I'm not really sure what its purpose is, unless it was like mass-produced to be handed out at the end of the world party or something.

the church of the androgyne jesus  ;D

Quote from: Nicky on March 23, 2009, 10:11:07 PM
I had this idea that androgynes are particulalry spiritual beings and as such would often be into religion, but I think in reality we are prone to be being a bit more weary of religion than the common shmo and perhaps embracing a more spiritual essence rather than a religious bent or maybe none at all.

I was raised to be a catholic and stopped personally believing when I was about 14. Since then I have felt a spirituality of sorts, along the lines of animism (not animalism  ::)). Now days I concentrate on food being good for the soul and being a parent and this gives life a very different meaning for me. Yet I still feel a capability to be very spiritual, I just don't think about it anymore. I get my spiritual needs meet by simply living life.

Do you feel a connection between being androgyne and your spiritual self? i.e. is is a spiritual thing for you? Do you follow a religion? Any other comments relating to religion and androgyne gender?

I don't feel like my spirituality has anything to do with my gender, yet in some ways I find myself seeking that harmonising/leading/counselling role such as transgenders in native american tradition.


I find it easy to imagine a divine being that is not male or female, they would simply be the reflection of myself.
God made adam as an aspect of his image. God made me as a reflection of hir self  (I don't believe that, just putting it out there for thought and it sounded poetic to my inner ear ;))

Hi, I do follow Islam but should do more really.

Fully agree with the spiritual side, have zero worries about being transgendered and Muslim whatever anyone says. Sure, God made us the way we are for a reason and IMO we should make the most of it both for ourselves and for others.

We also have our version of the "Rosary" called "Tasbih"... Although personally I don't use one but count on my fingers traditional style, three times on each finger etc. One recites "Subhan'Allah" (Praise be to God) 33 times, "Alhamdulillah" (Thanks be to God) 33 times and "Allahu Akbar" (God is Great) 33 times...

God is way beyond being Male or Female...

You know, I think my gender and my spiritual ideas are linked together.  It may just be in terms of balance, open-mindedness, listening to myself instead of outsiders, etc. 

I can't follow a religion.  Dogma doesn't do it for me.  I have to be free to decide for myself what I believe in and what I am.  :)  It's all about freedom from restrictions for me.

Just letting everyone know that I deleted a few posts in this topic. Personally attacking members of this site because of their religion won't be tolerated.

Cheers
Nicky

Some people say angels are nongendered
Sometimes I know I am an angel

I can see androgynes taking part in religious ceremonies because a good ceremony is like a celebration, but I can't picture a dogmatic androgyne.

Quote from: Rebis on March 25, 2009, 02:45:10 PM
I can't picture a dogmatic androgyne.

Well said.

There seems to be a good deal in variance under the "androgyne" term, that we just might be incapable of dogmatism. That's doesn't necessarily mean we can't be passionate about things, though.

Passion is good.

even if it's passion for fashion.

What is it people mean when they talk about the "passion of christ"?

Quote from: Nicky on March 25, 2009, 02:52:27 PM
What is it people mean when they talk about the "passion of christ"?

Unless I'm mistaken, the "passion of Christ" was the emotional turmoil he went through just prior to the crucifixion.

I did a little research and it refers specifically to Jesus' sufferings leading up to and culminating in His terrible crucifixion and death on the cross of calvary.

That sounds to me like it includes the physical.

Just something that struck me as interesting. Jesus as a man in the bible was not a particularly dogmatic dude - most of the dogma came with the religion. His message was simple, his passion was deep, he was a non-violent, he was not particulalry religious, he called for tolerance and love. In some ways you could see him like an androgyne super hero whether you believe or not..

Very true, none of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were half as dogmatic as those who followed them and tell us how religion should be.

Jesus' message is valid today and if he threw over the money changers tables God alone knows what he would do to the Vatican, the Pope and various other religious leaders including some of our Muslim ones!

Anyway above all Jesus wasn't a Christian but a Jew and the Christianity we know today, including the concept of the Trinity, is a product of many political decisions some dating back to the Roman Empire.

As for those who hate us for being believers frankly I couldn't give a damn :)

edited out the profanity, even using 'characters' is considered against the TOS - sorry, Nicky  :-*

indeed, the jesus of the bible speaks out against dogma.

this jesus character was a pretty cool guy.
I like him.

But I don't care that he was or not the son of god.

I think androgynes should be part of a religious-spiritual celebration. Because we as a.g.s are more aware of the togetherness of male and female. And males and females are more aware of the separatedness of it.

So. A.g.s are awesome, too.

:icon_mrgreen:

I would rather not be part of organised religious or spiritual celebration, I have better things to do.

Quote from: Nicky on March 25, 2009, 07:15:11 PM
I would rather not be part of organised religious or spiritual celebration, I have better things to do.

Like what ?

I like celebrating everything.

wash my hair...feed my cat...help someone out...watch tv...scratch my bits....

I'm not going to celebrate a religion I don't believe in, that is none of them.

Quote from: Nicky on March 25, 2009, 07:27:32 PM
wash my hair...feed my cat...help someone out...watch tv...scratch my bits....

I'm not going to celebrate a religion I don't believe in, that is none of them.

Ah, I see.

Isn't it wonderful that your cat exists, and that someone who can you help exists, and that the TV exists ?

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on March 25, 2009, 07:33:39 PM
Ah, I see.

Isn't it wonderful that your cat exists, and that someone who can you help exists, and that the TV exists ?

Totally! I'll celebrate that! I'm glad I don't think a supreme being created all that stuff too.

Mythology, stories, and rituals can be interesting as long as people are aware of the nature of the devices, and people involved provide an appropriate level of consent.  However, I am not interested in [organized] religion, particularly with regard to affirming that people should think or live in certain ways without allowing a sufficient level of discretion and scutiny, and attacking (violence, shaming, etc) those who do not conform.  I'd like gatherings to center around opening options rather than closing them down and forcing people through a pre-selected set.

I was born Jewish, at age 12 before getting Bar Mitzvah, I quit Hebrew School and became an atheist. At age 20 I realized that agnostic better described my beliefs. Over the years I've studied various world religions and sometimes attended their places of worship; Sufi, pagan, Buddhist, Bahai, Christian, new age... and back to Judaism. My spirituality is important to me, but I don't have a need to belong to any particular religion. I occasionally attend UU in my area, I feel comfortable there and am out as trans/androgyne to many people there.

Woody Guthrie was once filling out a form, they asked his religion and he answered all. They said he couldn't do that, so he crossed it out and wrote none. That pretty much works for me.

Z

This is another issue that arouses my passion, so I've kept quiet while thinking about how to reply concisely. I was born into a family of Radical Reform Jews and embrace most of that approach to life (It is true my great-grandfather's obituary contains the statement that he "was a member of no religious or fraternal organization). I was among the founders of a new congregation, where I conducted some services, taught school, helped organize the youth group, and chaired the social action committee. I have participated in the governance of my denomination from local to international levels. Interfaith understanding has come to be of special interest.

Judaism does not require one to believe in God, but rather to act as if God exists and cares. I am commanded to do some things, to refrain from doing other things, and not to submit to injustice. The exact nature of those commands is determined by my interpretation of thousands of years of Jewish thought and action. Scriptures are a human creation, not scientific truth, but invaluable for insights into the human character. Ritual is important to me either as art or for its effect on my ethical life.

Mysticism is an interest of mine. I celebrated my fortieth birthday by studying for a week with Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi, Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan, Br. David Steindl-Rast, and a couple other teachers. We are not rational creatures, nor can I grasp the whole of creation with my mind.

Religion has shaped my approach to gender. As a kid, I noticed in Genesis that we are created male and female. That validated my personal gender ID. God in Judaism has no gender, but is treated at times as male and other times as female. Enough for now.

May we each experience, recognize, and acknowledge one hundred blessings today,
S

In the first 2 chapters of the bible there are two different stories about god making people one says that "In the image of god he created them; male and female he created them."
(Gen 1:27) If we are both made in gods likeness how can god be either just male of female.  In the other retelling of the creation of people story god first makes adam in gods own likeness then because adam is lonely god operates on addam removing a rib to form eve one intereption is that pre op adam is physicaly Male and female and god removes the female to make a seperate person at the time adam is nameing all the creatures and when he saw eve for the first time he said wo man the bible has a few other words to make adam sound wise (gen 2:23)
I'd love to know of other religious texts that point to a non binary god particaly from non christian/jewish religions (I already know about christian & jewish scrips.

I really liked your interpretations Kinkly.

thanks Nicky there are many ways if interepiting the bible.  To me it's a book about Gods Love.  I believe that any intrepitation that limits gods Love or defines how people should behave beyond "be good to eachother" is taken out of context un fortunitly there are some words in the hebrew/greek versions of the bible that an exact translation is not known so biggoted translators have turned those parts into hatefull, anti loving messages in some versions of the bible

There is a lot of hateful stuff in the Bible, no matter how its translated.

In Hinduism they recognise that the Divine contains both masculine and feminine attributes.
I don't know a lot about it but it appears that many of their gods have a form that is neither male or female, or they have both male and female forms. It would be interesting to read the Bhagavata. I find information on Hinduism hard to follow. They seem to have a few 'cults', each focusing on a different aspect yet not exactly opposed i.e. they recognise eachothers turth.

"Hindu Quotes: Nature of God

Three men went into the jungle on different occasions and saw a chameleon. "A chameleon is red," said the first man. "No a chameleon is green," said the second man. "Nonsense, a chameleon is brown," said the third man. Those who disagree about the nature of God are like these three men.

- Hindu Teaching Story"

"Do you feel a connection between being androgyne and your spiritual self? i.e. is is a spiritual thing for you? Do you follow a religion? Any other comments relating to religion and androgyne gender?"

I think being fluid in ones gender can definitely open up your mind to be fluid in anything. I feel that because Im, in society's eye, "strange" i can do very at not judging others, which is very important in spiritual growth and understanding. i think that its made me more compassionate.

I do follow a religion, I believe in the Judaeo-Christian God. I believe my God has no/all sex/gender. I believe we are all made in his image, in the sense that out spiritual bodies are similar to him, and also have no/all gender.

SO! i guess im saying that theres a very spiritual connection with the way we perceive ourselves and our attitude towards a higher being.

I've always admired people who can commit to a religion and believe, wholeheartedly. I couldn't.

My spirituality is based in nature, science and the good of humanity. In this structure I find I can hang my beliefs on branches of each. I don't have to suspend my reality.

Also  androgynes I do believe we are more spiritual in general. In my case I tried to find a place in which I felt comfortable and wasn't considered a pagan. The place I've found doesn't have a deity, so there is no unreachable goals, no miracles, saints, spirits or ghosts just what it is and what I can make of it.
  Things I consider spiritual and give me the feeling I'm close to the essence of life are, sunrises and sunsets, phases of the moon, equinox, good deeds and charity, love and the arts and science. Truth and trust are important to.

Quote from: Bombi on March 31, 2009, 10:50:32 AM
In my case I tried to find a place in which I felt comfortable and wasn't considered a pagan. The place I've found doesn't have a deity, so there is no unreachable goals, no miracles, saints, spirits or ghosts just what it is and what I can make of it.

you sound like a pagan to me  :-\

Pagan does not seem to have a precise meaning. From a christian perspective it could include any other spiritual belief that is not christian.

Quote from: Kinkly on March 29, 2009, 02:00:13 PM
In the first 2 chapters of the bible there are two different stories about god making people one says that "In the image of god he created them; male and female he created them."
(Gen 1:27) If we are both made in gods likeness how can god be either just male of female. 

Then there is the holy trinity thing too (father, son, holy ghost all at the same time).

I just figure that someone with the power to create the cosmos, the earth and everything in it probably has powers and abilities that are well beyond our earthly comprehension.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan)

I guess by definition, perhaps I am a pagan but I don't dis anyone's belief sets.

My theory is someone, years ago made up all these religions from fact, fiction and hearsay so why can't I craft my own?

To me the subject is similar to labels we all use to describe ourselves and the tribes we identify with. Life is fluid. >:-)

What are you going to call your religion Bombi?

Bombi'ism
Bombianity
The church of the later day Bombi's
The Seventh Day Bombi?

Actually I am a minister of The Church of Spiritual Humanism
.
http://www.spiritualhumanism.org/what.htm (http://www.spiritualhumanism.org/what.htm)

I found it after my son and his gf asked me to marry them. It seemed like a good fit at the time. Presently it seems to still define the basics of  my beliefs.

I'm a minister via the Universal Life Church (http://"http://www.themonastery.org/"). I got my ordination a number of years ago specifically so that I could perform weddings and other ceremonies, particularly for those wishing to do so outside of mainstream religious venues.

It's been a while since I've done anything in my capacity as a minister and in that time my own spiritual path (if one can still call it that) has changed considerably. A couple of dear friend recently asked me if I would officiate their wedding for them. I told them that I would be honored to do so, as long as they didn't mind their wedding being officiated by an atheist minister. They said that didn't matter to them. They told me that I am a dear and trusted friend and that I have always been respectful of their beliefs, and that's what matters most. Likewise, that is exactly why I will be honored to be a part of their wedding ceremony.

I still find it odd that marriage in religion is considered to be the same thing as a marriage by the state. It just so happens most people that get married within a religion also get a legal marriage thrown in, but really they should not be considered in equivalent terms.

In Judaism, a minister, priest, or rabbi is not required for a couple to marry. A Jewish marriage is a contract; it requires witnesses, not clergy. In the state of Massachusetts, anyone of good character can get a one-day license to perform a legally acceptable marriage.

S

Quote from: Simone Louise on March 31, 2009, 06:35:01 PM
In Judaism, a minister, priest, or rabbi is not required for a couple to marry. A Jewish marriage is a contract; it requires witnesses, not clergy.
S

Same in Islam. Two of my Lesbian friends were married this way last year.

This is however purely religious not legal from a state perspective.

Where I got married we have a passport style book with our details and duties (!) in it. There's one for the husband in red and one for the wife in green! Bureaucracy for you...

Jews are a practical people I think.

In New Zealand it takes a bit to become a marriage celebrant. You need to be nominated, have a wedding to perform, get interviewed a number of times, background police check, character judges, plus be approved by the local politician.  On top of this you need a seperate licence if you want to perform civil unions.

 I married my son on the US mainland, in Maine. The only requirement was that I get the marrige certificate notorized. This the service:

Today is the first day of the further merging of two very
different but complementing people. Davis and MB have
aced relationships and personal growth 101. They have
found a way over the past years to meld their individual
hopes, goals and aspirations into a loving and committed
relationship. This togetherness manifested it's self to some
degree but I feel that this bond has been created by deep
love, sharing both their spiritual and life goals and dreams
and an incredible understanding and respect for one another.

Today is also one of the best days of my life. I get to cement the bond of my son and MB, two people I love and respect. I was humbled beyond belief when MB  asked me to marry she and Davis. I'm honored.

Although I'm biased, Davis is the most fearless person I know. He's proven this over and over. His heart, generosity and compassion I have long admired. He also has the deepest capacity to love I've ever witnessed. His loyalty is unquestionable. Although sometimes masked by his playful personality his soul and spirituality are boundless. Davis will be your friend for life
.
Mary Beth shares these qualities. We are all been affected by her beauty, intelligence, perseverance and loyalty. As I have come to better know MB, I've found she has the biggest heart and is the most compassionate women I've ever experienced. She truly loves without compromise or boundaries. She has taken all her best and worst experiences of her life and built on them to create a vision of life that is not religious but consciously spiritual. She is inspired by a higher power which drives her to excel. Her friendship is a bond that is boundless.

So here we are to join them in celebrating their marriage and witness their commitment to spend their lives together.

VOWS by MB and Davis

Davis and MB have shared their inspirations, goals and their love with each other and today they share them with us. Lets now all ask our God and whatever else we believe in to please help us evoke our purest blessing and bring light, grace, chi, energy and aloha to them and their promising future together.


Rings

Mary Beth and Davis have choosen these rings as a symbol of their love, commitment and desire to share together their lives.
The rings are but a worldly offering and their value and beauty are paled by the depth and love you together share.
 
Davis and MB please put the rings on each others fingers and wear them as a symbol of your unity and as a material demonstration  of the fulfillment of your hopes and dreams.

May the sun bring you new energy by day
May the moon softly restore you by night
May the rain wash away your worries
May the changing seasons enhance your joy
Any may you live the days of your lives together with peace, love and happiness.

Family and friends by the honor vested to me by MB and Davis and MB I now announce with bliss that you are now man and wife. This union is legal in the eyes of the law.

You are married. You are man and wife. Go forward from this day as a couple and seek your future and fortunes together. You will always have our love and respect.

ALOHA


I rewrote it slightly before the ceremony but no huge changes. I recieved a lot of compliments from the family and guests. I did mention God at least once.
The ceremony was on the first day of the new moon. The day began cloudy wih th threat of rain but when we started a bit of sun came out and we truly enjoyed the beautiful outdoor setting overlooking the coast. It was one of the best dys of my life so far.

anyone of good character

Darn, one more state that won't let me perform weddings.