Susan's Place Transgender Resources

If you are in this forum, chances are you are a non-op transperson.   So, 1) why not, and 2) how do you cope?

Wow what difficult yet important questions.

1) Why? There are many reasons, but here are the main two.  I believe I would be able to offer more to this world remaining in my birth sex then to transition.  I wanted to learn how to deal with the symptoms of GID so that I might be able to offer and alternative to transition to others.

2) How do I cope?  I have learned about coping techniques from many, but for me specifically, I am open about myself with basically everyone.  I talk about it with my close confidants when I get down about it.  I try not to put myself into situations that provoke my GID symptoms.  Most importantly, I never ever try to pretend I do not have my condition - that only makes it worse.  I am still experimenting with other techniques - the current one is to try to present more androgynously but still identify as male.

Why not: To be honest. I don't feel the need to transition at this point. Yes I want to, but the girl in me doesn't want to go. :P So now I'm trying to find balance where I'm happy being both male and female.

How do I cope: Go insane every once in awhile. :D



Random: Interalia, you have a great avatar. You're very beautiful.

1) While I am sure I have GID, I'm not convinced that transition is the right route for me.  Transitioning will cause new problems and I'm not sure that I want to swap GID with those problems.  Basically I am heeding people's advice about transitioning being the last resort.  I feel like I need to give life in my birth sex my very best shot, using all the coping mechanisms I can find.  Right now I have some hope that it will be possible for me to live a fulfilling life even with GID.  I am 99.999% sure the GID will always be there, but I'm not convinced that I will be happier if I transition.  Yes, I would be much happier if I looked male.  But the whole host of other problems I know I will encounter (and some I may not anticipate) will bring a lot of unhappiness and stress that I don't currently deal with.  *shrug* FYI I am trying to consider all my options.  I'm seeing a therapist and plan to see an endo to ensure I can be on T.  I'm also trying to read and consider all the relevant medical research to date, as well as what supposed "reparative therapists" have to say.

2) I think Interalia summed it up quite well but I'll put it into my own words. 

- I've realized recently that I have to intentionally avoid situations that will make the pain from GID more pronounced than necessary.  This includes both the big things (where I live, where I work, who I choose to associate with) as well as the smaller things (what events I attend, what movies I watch, etc). 

- I am considering being more open with my good friends about what I am going through so they will better know how to care for me.  Some close friends already know everything and have been a big help.

- I wear the most comfortable clothes I can find that are still socially acceptable. (I know, much easier for me as a FTM than a MTF...I can basically wear guy clothes and everyone just assumes I am a tomboy.  I think some even applaud me for not giving in to society's expectations that women wear tight and low-cut clothing.  Little do they know, haha.)

- And finally, I think it's good to remind myself from time to time that I have a lot to be thankful for and that no one has an ideal life, even though it may appear that way on the outside.  Even if most people do not have GID, they still have other huge problems that I don't have to deal with.  We are all broken in our own ways.  I saw this story on CNN yesterday about a family that has to go to great and exhausting lengths to ensure their 4-year-old boy doesn't come into contact with things that trigger his life-threatening allergies.  (See http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/24/teddys.struggle/ (http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/24/teddys.struggle/)).  While the pain from GID is probably worse, I wouldn't necessarily want to trade for that problem, either.  I have been blessed with a great family, great friends, excellent health, a good education, respect from peers at work, a number of talents I appreciate, and I've never had money, drug, or alcohol problems.  Except for GID I have to say my life is positively ideal.  ::)  And I probably need to remember that more often.

Sorry, this went longer than I thought it would.  But in addition to answering the questions I guess I wanted to get my thoughts in order for my own sake as well.

Joseph

Similar to Janet, but also I have an enormous commitment to my disabled wife. She accepts me and love me but would have problems with me being female 27/7/365.
It also costs a fortune for her therapy and care, and I cannot afford to lose my job.

How do I cope. I don't. I just don't have a choice.
How do I cope? This place helps a lot. I'm also in a TG club and they are very supportive. My family knows and accepts me.

Yea
Cindy James

One thing that I think helps with coping is being out. Coming out to my family as bi-gendered has helped a lot. I have the freedom to be me, whatever that might be, there's definitely a big weight taken off when that happens.

Of course it depends on who you're with and how accepting they are. I know that I'm very fortunate.

Ok almost 4 in the morning, time to stop rambling inanely. *passes out*

If the only reason you have not had GRS surgery is the cost, then you would be pre-op not non-op...

Why not? I had Hodgkin's Lymphoma as a teenager and my spleen was removed which weakens my immune system. SRS would be dangerous for me from an infection perspective.

How do I cope? Well sex is sex, and anyway to be 100% honest I prefer natural genitalia, be they male or female. This is just my personal preference and not intended to cause any offence. :)

Cost, but also the fact that I'm not really all that convinced current SRS procedures are all that good. I have major concerns about colovaginoplasty, which is what is offered here in ZA, but other methods like penile inversion and vaginal construction from the scrotum and stuff all have issues around lubrication and maintainance and the fact that your body regards it as a wound and the possibility of tissue becoming necrotic and a bunch of other stuff.

Basically my own fears then. They're probably totally unjustified, but even if I had the money, I would have to think long and very hard about going through with it. I want the right genitalia with all my heart, but if it comes at the cost of my health or even my life, and it is still just an approximation, if a very good one ... yeah. Lots of pros and cons to weigh up.

Mina.

Susan
I think you have opened a minefield. And thank you BTW for this site and your moderation of it.

Are non-ops pre ops? certainly some who have responded but if a non-op in a bad emotional and financial situation becomes into a "good situation" has that changed the psyche or the the opportunity, and they can become ops. I don't see myself as non-op, but more unable op. So if we want labels, do we have unable ops are a sub-species of ops and non-opps are a separate phylogeny?
We can construct a phylogenic tree of CDs, CDs part time, CD's full time, CDs fetish. Cds non-fetish. Tgs: Tgs-hrt, TGs nonHRT, Tgs op, Tgs non-op. I'm not sure if this is useful. Yes, I can see from your side as the site owner you are trying very hard to accomodate all groups. You have more experience than me.

But are we different?
I love interacting with FtMs and MtFs on that board. Never met an FtM before I came here. Their problems are so relevant to mine but opposite.

I think I'm getting off the point but labels are not always useful.

My Love to you
And my thanks for having this site that has made me want to live.

:-*
Cindy James

Why does it matter Janet?

At the end of the day these things really aren't important, it's the human being that counts.

QuoteThis is a forum where transsexuals who are unable or unwilling to transitition, or have SRS/GRS can discuss the issues they face in their daily lives. This is their area, give them the respect each of you expect for yourselves.  I have also created a non-op peer support group.

There is very little information out there for non-op support.  This is one of the reasons I think this is a bold and wonderful move made by Susan.  For those of who are transitioning, or at least intend to to, they have plenty of support around the internet and can have hope that their GID symptoms will one day be significantly lessened by transition.  For those of us who identify as having GID but will not transition for one reason or another, there is little to no support for these people. 

For instance, how does one cope with the distressing feelings?  What techniques enable one to live a relatively normal life?

It seems the only answer ever given for these questions is "transition" but we need other answers.

This is why I imagine that when this forum refers to 'non-ops' it is specific to people for whom transition is not their first option.

Rereading Susan's statement, I guess you are right.  I was assuming 'non-op' referred more to people who are not transitioning than those who just aren't having the surgery.

1. I'm very young, not exactly sure what I am (though it definitely isn't female), and am refraining from pushing for transition because of my parents/family.

2. I comport myself as an androgyne/genderqueer, as trying to "pass" stresses me out and worsens my depression. I try to be myself. Also, I get stoned and drunk a lot, which helps.

re what makes a non-op a non-op: I'd get top surgery if my circumstances allowed, but they don't. When/if they ever do, I'll go for it. Does that make me pre-op? I don't have any kind of transition plans, and don't plan to make any plans unless something changes for me.

I think what Susan was trying to say is that if GRS is in the plan, meaning if you aren't planning on living your life (possibly indefinitely) without GRS then that makes you pre-op.

Of course financial situations might change and then GRS might be back in the game plan, but the same could be said for mental or physical reasons. Basically for whatever reason if you're planning on living without GRS that should count as non-op.

I am non-op because I haven't seen a therapist or doctor yet. And I don't have near enough money.

Quote from: Susan on April 03, 2009, 02:51:31 AM
If the only reason you have not had GRS surgery is the cost, then you would be pre-op not non-op...

This is something in which I agree with Susan. If you arent having bottom surgery because of the costs? Well, I dont feel you are non-op Because if you get the money you will do it.

I believe non-op means more like Imaz was saying about not being able even if its wanted. Or like others were saying that they doesnt feel its the right thing. Or even more simple, they are comfortable like this without the surgery.

Quote from: mina.m->-bleeped-<-ie link=topic=58248.msg368119#msg368119 date=1238748471
I'm not really all that convinced current SRS procedures are all that good. I have major concerns about colovaginoplasty, which is what is offered here in ZA, but other methods like penile inversion and vaginal construction from the scrotum and stuff all have issues around lubrication and maintainance and the fact that your body regards it as a wound and the possibility of tissue becoming necrotic...

What Mina said...I feel that the current procedure is too dangerous for me, in fact I think it's pretty brutal as far as medical procedures are concerned.  Since my orchiectomy, I've become comfortable with my genitalia and my dysphoria is manageable, so further surgeries are not necessary.

That's the main reason why I'm non-op.  For me there's too much a risk of complications and/or death from the procedure.  The other reason is cost.  Since I'm already comfortable with myself, I can use the money I would've spent on surgery on something else, like building a self-sufficient off-grid home.  ;D

How do I cope?  I try to be myself.  That's all anyone can do.

Hi all, I don't realy care getting into this kind of topic, to volatile. But if I got this correctly, non-op means no plans for SRS for health reasons and what ever other reason's this person may have, "period!"
If SRS is out, one can always take the alternative of orchiectomy, a less major surgery

Pre-op means wanting and planning on having SRS no matter how long it takes to have the money or find the means to have the surgery. Some even sell their bodies on the street for the money for SRS.

Post-op means after surgery.

PS, Colonovaginoplasty is not offered anywhere I know of in US and Canada. They use the penile inversion method here I believe it to be a good deal safer method.

Cindy

Well sis, that wouldn't stop me from taking you out to a restaurant of your choice.  :D

Cindy

I think we are getting a little caught up in semantics.
I came to this site to give and recieve support.

I have GID, I identify as female. I am female.
End of story.

Cindy James

Well, maybe those like me who cannot afford srs at this time would be considered special ops.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on April 04, 2009, 12:40:38 AM
If you knew my financial situation, the possibility of affording SRS is somewhere between Never and when Hell freezes over. 

I thought some of you would understand that at least.  But if I am not non-op.  And not pre-op because I couldn't afford SRS or anything else surgical.  Then what am I?

Can't answer question about being post-op because I am not.  Can't be in a section for non-ops, because I am not deemed non-op.  Don't feel like a pre-op, because it will never happen that I can see.  Not a true transsexual because I don't aggressively seek SRS.  I sure as Hell not a GD s*e-m**e, nor a ch**k with a d**k.

A woman stuck between hell and damnation.  Some times I wish that I had made it the last time I slit my wrists.

What have I done so wrong that I get rejected by the very people that are here to help.

non-op, pre-op, post-op -- who cares?
you're a woman, not some stupid label. :)

Quote from: hayden. on April 04, 2009, 01:49:50 AM
non-op, pre-op, post-op -- who cares?
you're a woman, not some stupid label. :)

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at

Quote from: Virginia Marie on April 04, 2009, 01:41:20 AM
Well, maybe those like me who cannot afford srs at this time would be considered special ops.

Special ops. Has kind of a military feel to it. :P

I'm working with Victoria's Secret to get it printed on my panties  :laugh:

I never said anyone was less woman than any other or man, We are whom we believe we are, I was only trying to point out the difference between non-op and pre-op and post-op that's it period.

What one does with their lives and how far they want to go down the transition trail that is their prerogative and their business and not mine. They are not any less or more then the next TS/TG just that some of us want to go all the way as completely as we can while some are happy to stay at one point.

Me on the other hand preferably desired to be left with the least ear maks as possible to remind me of who I was before, no better no worst the next person here on this board or out there in society.

I just had an insatiable need to be who I believe myself to be. So now if I still needed the surgery I would want the honor of having the bed between Heatherrose and Janet, or just let me know when, and I will be there and set myself in a chair between the both of you and hold your hands, with two vases of flowers at my feet with both your name cards on them.

Cindy   

Just FWIW, I think making these very fine distinctions on why one isn't getting surgery really doesn't help much. Be it for health reasons or because we don't trust the surgery or because we'll never be able to afford it (and there are people in that position, whatever one's personal beliefs about "hard work and determination"), we all deal with the same sense of loss and having to adjust to it and coping with dating and relationship issues and lingering dysphoria and dressing-room issues and all that stuff. I think it's a minority of non-ops who are truly comfortable being in-between, not that there's anything wrong with that, and using that as a criteria for non-op is dubious. If somebody came up with a way to safely create functional genitalia I'd be signed up in a heartbeat, in the same way that Janet would be on the phone to a surgeon the moment she won the lotto, and then yeah, we'd be pre-op. But we're not there now. We share the same stage in our lives at this point in time, at least as far as transition goes, and I honestly don't see how intent makes a difference to the practical circumstances and personal impacts that stage entails.

Mina.

Sure, why not? Have you not heard that old hippies never die, they only smell that way and I warshed me underarms last month. ;D

Cindy

Quote from: mina.m->-bleeped-<-ie link=topic=58248.msg368578#msg368578 date=1238829122
Just FWIW, I think making these very fine distinctions on why one isn't getting surgery really doesn't help much. Be it for health reasons or because we don't trust the surgery or because we'll never be able to afford it (and there are people in that position, whatever one's personal beliefs about "hard work and determination"), we all deal with the same sense of loss and having to adjust to it and coping with dating and relationship issues and lingering dysphoria and dressing-room issues and all that stuff. I think it's a minority of non-ops who are truly comfortable being in-between, not that there's anything wrong with that, and using that as a criteria for non-op is dubious. If somebody came up with a way to safely create functional genitalia I'd be signed up in a heartbeat, in the same way that Janet would be on the phone to a surgeon the moment she won the lotto, and then yeah, we'd be pre-op. But we're not there now. We share the same stage in our lives at this point in time, at least as far as transition goes, and I honestly don't see how intent makes a difference to the practical circumstances and personal impacts that stage entails.

Mina.

I think the distinction makes a difference to me. 

For most, GID is something they deal with by using hormones, surgery, etc.  They live as the other sex the best they can, and deal with stresses involving those choices.

For others, like me, we look for ways to deal with GID doing something other than hormones, surgery, etc.  We live as our birth sex or something resembling it the best we can, and deal with the stressed involving those choices.

The difference?

Nearly every single forum on the internet dealing with TS provides support to those who choose to deal with their GID the first way while there is next to no support for those who deal with their GID the second way.

I don't need a label to validate my identity, but I want people to know before they try to give me advice the fact that I'm not dealing with my GID the way most do and don't appreciate advice given along those paths.  I need different kind of support and not looked down upon for how I deal with my GID (not that anyone here has, but I've experienced that in the past).  The label is significant for others to know that surgery is not an option to me - it is not something I would get if conditions were right, something that I would get if I could afford it, it is not something that will ever be in my life.

All that said, I wouldn't prevent anyone from offering advice so long as they understand the choices we have made.

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 02:24:08 AMFor most, GID is something they deal with by using hormones, surgery, etc.  They live as the other sex the best they can, and deal with stresses involving those choices.

For others, like me, we look for ways to deal with GID doing something other than hormones, surgery, etc.  We live as our birth sex or something resembling it the best we can, and deal with the stressed involving those choices.

As I've always understood it, non-ops are people who do transition, they just don't have SRS. People who don't transition at all face a different set of difficulties again, I agree, but I think there's a fair bit of overlap, especially if one's open about having GID.

Mina.

Quote from: Jill on April 02, 2009, 09:11:22 PM
If you are in this forum, chances are you are a non-op transperson.   So, 1) why not, and 2) how do you cope?

1. Cost.  I live at my mom's and even then it's still tough.  I have a lot of debt from everything else trans-related that I had to pay for when I didn't really have the means(therapy, laser, new clothes, hormones, ect).  I'm also scared of surgeries in general, and don't really feel like the cost is worth the gain, for what is essentially just an inside out penis.  if i'm going to spend that much money, I feel like they should give me fully working plumbing, otherwise I don't differntiate between the SRS and Breast Augmentation, which is another surgery I don't plan on having.  with hormones I feel like I am me still, with all my flaws and warts.  But with the surgeries, I feel like I Would be getting them more out of insecurities than out of burning desires. 

Additionally I feel that the amount of research, funding, and work that has gone into MTF SRS is disproportionate with the amount that has gone into FTM.  There's a pretty big gap in cost there that I feel is completely unfair, and has in it's roots some of the same overarching problems from medicine we've had for years and years, which is that women's medicine has not been funded or researched on anything like an equal level.  Which I am not saying FTM are women, but I am saying that the disparities in cost and quality between the two surgeries offend me AS a woman.

I just feel at the end of the day, I should not have to turn my penis inside out just to be recognized by society as a woman.  The shape of my genetalia should be between me and whoever I'm having sex with.  It should not be something that society uses to judge my gender, or discriminate against me on.

2) I cope by just living my life.  I try not to think about it when I can, and remember that regardless of my genitals, I'm a crazy, sexy, cool lady that anyone would be lucky to know on any level.  I just try not to buy into society's lies about what is and isn't a woman, and live my life as me.

If I win the lotery, in all sincerity I would arange a date for surgery for both heatherrose and Janet. But anyway Interalia, I agree with you 100% with your post you have more detail in your presentation then I did in mine. But basicly we are singing in the same quire hun.

Susan's Wiki

"Non-op" is short for non-operative. When used as an adjective of a person, this term typically signifies that the person has no desire to undergo gender reassignment surgery

"Pre-op" is short for pre-operative. When used as an adjective of a person, this term typically signifies that the person has not undergone Gender reassignment surgery (GRS) and still has his or her congenital genitals mostly intact.

A few cases of ambiguity may arise with this term. For example, a male to female transsexual post castration may sometimes refer to themselves as mid-op to reflect the in media res nature of their medical history. The term almost exclusively refers to a transsexual or an operative transgenderist as these are the only communities that regularly undergo genital operations

"Post-op" is short for post-operative. When used as an adjective of a person, this term typically signifies that the person has already undergone gender reassignment surgery.

Cindy

Quote from: mina.m->-bleeped-<-ie link=topic=58248.msg368590#msg368590 date=1238830563
As I've always understood it, non-ops are people who do transition, they just don't have SRS. People who don't transition at all face a different set of difficulties again, I agree, but I think there's a fair bit of overlap, especially if one's open about having GID.

Mina.

I agree with you, but based on Susan's statement concerning this board, this is the best place I fit.

Quote"This is a forum where transsexuals who are unable or unwilling to transitition, or have SRS/GRS can discuss the issues they face in their daily lives. This is their area, give them the respect each of you expect for yourselves.  I have also created a non-op peer support group."

Quote from: cindybc on April 04, 2009, 02:44:53 AM
If I win the lotery, in all sincerity I would arange a date for surgery for both heatherrose and Janet.

Cindy

Humf, Virginia got left out again  :-\ Puts her puffy lip out

Janet, Heather Rose and Virginia, here's the plan.
We'll meet up in our pink combat uniform with SOPs badge. Nice high heel boots ala Charlie's Angels. Get our hair done and a bit of lippy and nail extensions. Janet and Virginia rob the bank. Heather Rose has the escape vehicle. We'll meet up at the SRS clinic, have FFS and SRS and any other s available and disapear into the sunset.

What do I do to share the loot? I made up the plan silly! :D :-*

LoL
Cindy James

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 02:48:10 AMI agree with you, but based on Susan's statement concerning this board, this is the best place I fit.

It's the best place either myself or Janet fit too hon, whatever might change in the future.

We have alot to offer one another, and having a section like this is a really awesome opportunity because I've not come across anything like it before, and considering the animosity non-ops or non-transitioners face from the HBS and "true transsexual" camps, amongst others, we need to stick together instead of dividing up even further. I understand that you and I won't face all the same challenges, and that we will have different takes on things, but that doesn't prevent us from offering a helping hand or a shoulder to cry on. :)

Mina.

Quote from: CindyJames on April 04, 2009, 02:51:26 AM
Janet, Heather Rose and Virginia, here's the plan.
We'll meet up in our pink combat uniform with SOPs badge. Nice high heel boots ala Charlie's Angels. Get our hair done and a bit of lippy and nail extensions. Janet and Virginia rob the bank. Heather Rose has the escape vehicle. We'll meet up at the SRS clinic, have FFS and SRS and any other s available and disapear into the sunset.

What do I do to share the loot? I made up the plan silly! :D :-*

LoL
Cindy James

I like this plan  :laugh:

Quote from: mina.m->-bleeped-<-ie link=topic=58248.msg368604#msg368604 date=1238831586
It's the best place either myself or Janet fit too hon, whatever might change in the future.

We have alot to offer one another, and having a section like this is a really awesome opportunity because I've not come across anything like it before, and considering the animosity non-ops or non-transitioners face from the HBS and "true transsexual" camps, amongst others, we need to stick together instead of dividing up even further. I understand that you and I won't face all the same challenges, and that we will have different takes on things, but that doesn't prevent us from offering a helping hand or a shoulder to cry on. :)

Mina.

I can accept this.  I'm grateful to have the additional support.  I honestly wondered how many people would even frequent this new forum - well besides me and Joseph. ;)

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 02:24:08 AM
I think the distinction makes a difference to me. 

For most, GID is something they deal with by using hormones, surgery, etc.  They live as the other sex the best they can, and deal with stresses involving those choices.

For others, like me, we look for ways to deal with GID doing something other than hormones, surgery, etc.  We live as our birth sex or something resembling it the best we can, and deal with the stressed involving those choices.

The difference?

Nearly every single forum on the internet dealing with TS provides support to those who choose to deal with their GID the first way while there is next to no support for those who deal with their GID the second way.

I don't need a label to validate my identity, but I want people to know before they try to give me advice the fact that I'm not dealing with my GID the way most do and don't appreciate advice given along those paths.  I need different kind of support and not looked down upon for how I deal with my GID (not that anyone here has, but I've experienced that in the past).  The label is significant for others to know that surgery is not an option to me - it is not something I would get if conditions were right, something that I would get if I could afford it, it is not something that will ever be in my life.

All that said, I wouldn't prevent anyone from offering advice so long as they understand the choices we have made.

Honestly, you may think your experience is unique from others who are transitioning in diffrent ways than you, and have diffrent relationships to the operations--but really, you're not that diffrent from any of us.  A lot of your concerns about life are going to be shared by everyone else in the non-op community.

The non-op community as I interpreted it is for people, who for whatever reason, are not currently planning to have SRS.  Whether that's because they are too poor, or because they just don't trust the surgery, or just plain don't have any interest in that as part of their identity.

Even though you may think you and Janet may not have a lot in common, really, once you get past the reasons for not having the operation--your problems are going to be kind of similar in a lot of ways.  And your views on what makes up gender is going to be pretty similar as well.

You also should realize, that a lot of people are probably as far along as you in terms of the non-op thing.  For some it's still a question they have introspections about.  not everyone has to have black and white answers for everyday of their life.  Your experience and views can definitely help others who are non-op feel better about their situation and how their gender operates.  So i really don't think there's a need to seperate the community so quickly.  We still have a lot to learn from one another I suspect.

Cheeeeeez theys gots big lotteries her in Canada to ya know. Probably enough to fund SRS for every TS on this board who wants it. Need an army of surgeons though. Maybe I could arrange for you all to get abducted by aliens and come back  "complete" in the bushes the next day "with no clothes on?"  "YIKESSSSS!"

I'm with Mina.M->-bleeped-<-ie on this. Even if I had the money and the health I wouldn't go there.

It's like breast implants, just don't like them and wouldn't go out with someone who had them, always liked smallish breasts anyway...

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to seriously mess with one's genitals. It's a matter of taste (no pun intended), just prefer the real thing whichever it may be.

If someone perceives this as an an attack on HBS etc it's pure projection IMHO.

Live and let live, and anyway didn't Susan intend this as a non-op space? ;D

Quote from: cindybc on April 04, 2009, 03:03:32 AM
Cheeeeeez theys gots big lotteries her in Canada to ya know. Probably enough to fund SRS for every TS on this board who wants it. Need an army of surgeons though. Maybe I could arrange for you all to get abducted by aliens and come back  "complete" in the bushes the next day "with no clothes on?"  "YIKESSSSS!"

I should differentiate then slightly.  When I say cost, it's not a matter of whether I can afford it or not(I can't), but whether that is the best way to spend that amount of money in my life.  And with all of the concerns that i have about the surgery, and what it means/will do for me--I don't know that that amount of money wouldn't be put to better use getting rid of my debt, and then getting one of those 'off grid" houses that are apparently all the rage :P

Because honestly, the state of my genetalia is not something I feel should dictate the acceptance of my gender, both by others and myself.  It's something I wrestle with for sure.  But right now, my feeling is that SRS is a largely cosmetic surgery.  If there was a safe way to get a real fully functioning baby maker--then i would be all over that.  But paying a lot of money just to get my penis cosmetically altered so that I look a little better aesthetically--is something that troubles me.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on April 04, 2009, 03:03:27 AM
Honestly, you may think your experience is unique from others who are transitioning in diffrent ways than you, and have diffrent relationships to the operations--but really, you're not that diffrent from any of us.  A lot of your concerns about life are going to be shared by everyone else in the non-op community.

I agree, non-transitioning would be a more accurate definition, but Susan is allowing me to consider myself non-op for the purpose of this forum, and I'm grateful for that.

"This is a forum where transsexuals who are unable or unwilling to transitition, or have SRS/GRS can discuss the issues they face in their daily lives. This is their area, give them the respect each of you expect for yourselves.  I have also created a non-op peer support group."

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on April 04, 2009, 03:03:27 AM
The non-op community as I interpreted it is for people, who for whatever reason, are not currently planning to have SRS.  Whether that's because they are too poor, or because they just don't trust the surgery, or just plain don't have any interest in that as part of their identity.

Even though you may think you and Janet may not have a lot in common, really, once you get past the reasons for not having the operation--your problems are going to be kind of similar in a lot of ways.  And your views on what makes up gender is going to be pretty similar as well.

You also should realize, that a lot of people are probably as far along as you in terms of the non-op thing.  For some it's still a question they have introspections about.  not everyone has to have black and white answers for everyday of their life.  Your experience and views can definitely help others who are non-op feel better about their situation and how their gender operates.  So i really don't think there's a need to seperate the community so quickly.  We still have a lot to learn from one another I suspect.

I appreciate your comments.

I transitioned once.  I can help others do the same insomuch as I experienced it, lived as a girl for years, and know how it is to live that lifestyle as a pre-op.  I start to differ though dramatically in that I de-transitioned without the intention to ever transition again.  I still deal with the same GID that forces so many others to choose transition, but my ideas about the source of my GID, and the choices I have to make concerning it are wildly different from others - so much so some find them offensive.  I still want to have support so would welcome help from anyone so long as their advice isn't to re-transition. ;)

Quote from: imaz on April 04, 2009, 03:09:56 AM
I'm with Mina.M->-bleeped-<-ie on this. Even if I had the money and the health I wouldn't go there.

It's like breast implants, just don't like them and wouldn't go out with someone who had them, always liked smallish breasts anyway...

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to seriously mess with one's genitals. It's a matter of taste (no pun intended), just prefer the real thing whichever it may be.

If someone perceives this as an an attack on HBS etc it's pure projection IMHO.

Live and let live, and anyway didn't Susan intend this as a non-op space? ;D

I agree with a lot of this.  it's nice to find where the rest of us have been hiding on the message board, huh?

oooooops sorry for the weird humor on the tail of a really well thought out post. Thank you Sarah.

Cindy  

Three conditions:

• 1) No one, but me, uses my hot pink anodized AR-15 with mother of pearl folding stock and diamond studded sights.
  2) Y'all pitch in for fuel.
  3) Roosevelt T, my bi-polar bear, called shotgun.
  
  
  

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 03:10:44 AM

I transitioned once.  I can help others do the same insomuch as I experienced it, lived as a girl for years, and know how it is to live that lifestyle as a pre-op.  I start to differ though dramatically in that I de-transitioned without the intention to ever transition again.  I still deal with the same GID that forces so many others to choose transition, but my ideas about the source of my GID, and the choices I have to make concerning it are wildly different from others - so much so some find them offensive.  I still want to have support so would welcome help from anyone so long as their advice isn't to re-transition. ;)

So how do you deal with your GID?  If you don't mind me asking.  Do you identify outwardly to people as the gender you feel on the inside?  Or do you just life like you did before you came out?  How long were you transitioning before you de-transitioned?

Sorry if I'm asking too many questions.  I find de-transition stories interesting.

Did your faith have a role in your decision to de-transition?  How did you arrive at where you are currently on things?  If I'm not asking for too much of a biographical breakdown.

Do you want to be identified as a boy or a girl or neither at this point?

OK let's bring out another contentious issue about "non-ops"...

Some people out there fancy us for how we are, and some of us like that, it's also a sexual thing.

Go on, do your worst punks! >:-)

Hi Sarah. I quite agree with you about the surgery. It was a scary proposition and I nearly opted not going for it. I felt comfortable enough in who I was, just annoying when I wen tot use the bathroom or a bathing suit at the beach but I had mostly accepted myself to be a woman and I went 57 years waiting to be a woman and anther five years later before the opportunity came my way.

I did as you did. First priorities came first, and I mean first priorities, considering I was still living on the street 22 years ago, so my first priority was to get a job and a place to live. When it came time to transition I had nothing to lose and come hell or high water I just did what I had to do one day at a time. Time was of no essence, years are numbered and I did what I had to do to feel good with who I was, and I did my best to be the best me I could be.

Cindy    

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on April 04, 2009, 03:17:58 AM
So how do you deal with your GID?  If you don't mind me asking.  Do you identify outwardly to people as the gender you feel on the inside?  Or do you just life like you did before you came out?  How long were you transitioning before you de-transitioned?

Sorry if I'm asking too many questions.  I find de-transition stories interesting.

Did your faith have a role in your decision to de-transition?  How did you arrive at where you are currently on things?  If I'm not asking for too much of a biographical breakdown.

Do you want to be identified as a boy or a girl or neither at this point?

Here is my post on this earlier in the forum for convenience in referencing.

Quote from: interalia on April 02, 2009, 11:48:37 PM
Wow what difficult yet important questions.

1) Why? There are many reasons, but here are the main two.  I believe I would be able to offer more to this world remaining in my birth sex then to transition.  I wanted to learn how to deal with the symptoms of GID so that I might be able to offer and alternative to transition to others.

2) How do I cope?  I have learned about coping techniques from many, but for me specifically, I am open about myself with basically everyone.  I talk about it with my close confidants when I get down about it.  I try not to put myself into situations that provoke my GID symptoms.  Most importantly, I never ever try to pretend I do not have my condition - that only makes it worse.  I am still experimenting with other techniques - the current one is to try to present more androgynously but still identify as male.

I could never ever live life like I did before I transitioned.  I was living a lie back then - just as I was living a lie as a female.  I am a male with GID.  I need to deal with it as such.  I changed how I interacted with others.  I quit "acting" the part of the male, and started just being real with people.  It gets me odd looks and interactions, but people who give me a chance are okay with me.

My faith has a ton to do with my decision, but not all.  I had a powerful spiritual experience telling me that while I might be happy transitioning fully, I could do a lot more good in this world by not transitioning.  I acted on that faith, even though it meant a life of uncertainty.  I was happy as a female.  Things are different now, but I am managing.  I have to deal with people perceiving me as male while I don't feel I am inside which is very uncomfortable, but I do my best to be as open with people as I can.

For incredibly more detail, I suggest you read this: http://gidinteralia.blogspot.com/2009/03/who-am-i.html (http://gidinteralia.blogspot.com/2009/03/who-am-i.html)
I hear it cures insomnia.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I transitioned at 19 (10 years ago) and de-transitioned just before I turned 22.

Quote from: imaz on April 04, 2009, 03:21:31 AM
OK let's bring out another contentious issue about "non-ops"...

Some people out there fancy us for how we are, and some of us like that, it's also a sexual thing.

Go on, do your worst punks! >:-)

Virginia puts on a Sex Pistols album and dances around wearing plaid trousers and suspenders  :laugh:

Frankly I think I could do a lot more for my faith by transitioning. The World needs more LGBT Muslims if only to show Islam in a more favourable light.

Quote from: imaz on April 04, 2009, 03:33:15 AM
Frankly I think I could do a lot more for my faith by transitioning. The World needs more LGBT Muslims if only to show Islam in a more favourable light.

Hehehe. Depends on who's doing the lighting. Combining the Gay Agenda and the Muslim Menace in one scary, ungodly package ... ... muahahahahaha.  >:-)

Mina.

Quote from: imaz on April 04, 2009, 03:33:15 AM
Frankly I think I could do a lot more for my faith by transitioning. The World needs more LGBT Muslims if only to show Islam in a more favourable light.

Had that been my revelation I would still be a girl right now and a TS activist. :D

Virginia avoids religious issues...Late  :P

Quote from: imaz on April 04, 2009, 03:21:31 AM
OK let's bring out another contentious issue about "non-ops"...

Some people out there fancy us for how we are, and some of us like that, it's also a sexual thing.

Go on, do your worst punks! >:-)

I struggle with that one sometimes, though I think it's mostly because of the internet.  I'm always asking myself why this person likes me, and what they see--and how that will play with who I am.  I think ideally I want someone who is turned on by who I am--because I mean--doesn't everyone want to be desired?  But I don't want that to be the only reason they are with me.  Which I think is true no matter who you are in the human experience.  The desire is for both phsyical AND emotional intimacy.   I'm still looking for it.

Quote from: Virginia Marie on April 04, 2009, 03:42:37 AM
Virginia avoids religious issues...Late  :P

I agree - not a discussion that ever ends well.  Suffice it to say for my part, it is important to me, but I cannot expect others to see it the way I do.

Hi interalia, I have no plans of detrasitioning, I have already went the full gambit now standing on the other side of the line so to speak. But what you have posted here to us has truly caught my attention, I am curious as well. I have had a spiritual experience I will post it if you wish. Actually I wish to shared one in particular which I have share on these board before.

Cindy   

Quote from: cindybc on April 04, 2009, 03:45:06 AM
Hi interalia, I have no plans of detrasitioning, I have already went the full gambit now standing on the other side of the line so to speak. But what you have posted here to us has truly caught my attention, I am curious as well. I have had a spiritual experience I will post it if you wish. Actually I wish to shared one in particular which I have share on these board before.

Cindy   

Well I feel I'll be up so long as people are responding in the two threads I am watching.  I'm up for more questions either through this forum or PMs.  And feel free to share your experience as well if you feel it appropriate to this particular thread.

I am not certain of what the meaning was, I have some ideas, I believe it had something to do as to what lay ahead of me. Before I had ever even given any consideration to transitioning. I would welcome some thoughts on it though. You say you had a vision that lead you to de transitioning I believe mine meant a going int he opposite direction, but it lead to a journey with a purpose I would never have been aware of.

Cindy

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 03:30:32 AM

For incredibly more detail, I suggest you read this: http://gidinteralia.blogspot.com/2009/03/who-am-i.html (http://gidinteralia.blogspot.com/2009/03/who-am-i.html)
I hear it cures insomnia.

I read this whole thing.  It was pretty engrossing and interesting.  It makes me kind of sad too.  You're kind of tearing yourself up over and over, with a belief system that runs exactly counter to your base notions of self.  And rather than accept that there are contradictions, and that's okay, you struggle very intensely with both sides of the argument.  It makes me sad that so many religions do this to their followers.  While I note that it definitely makes the experience much more vivid--it seems unnecessary.  If the Church just had a more open mind on these issues, you would havee been able to live your life as a girl, and as you say over and over, be perfectly happy.  You have both a strong desire to serve your church and you have a very strong identification as a girl.  That those two things are in contest, and not concert, really makes me sad.  Because the sense i got from reading that entry, especially by the end is that the GID is causing you to question the church, rather than embrace it further.  Because what it's embracing, you know is fake.

It's all so black and white, that just reading that I think your future is either in being magically changed in terms of how you identify, or leaving the church again.  It may not happen for years and years, but you can't fully serve a god with a fake persona in between.  God knows who you are.  And if you serve him, if he's at all like most other gods, he demands of you EVERYTHING.  Otherwise you won't get the most out of the relationship, and the monsters you hide will grow and grow until they overtake you.

The flipside of the coin is that your faith right now, intrinsically is against you.  because of what your faith is, your GID and how you view it is always going to be as a negative.  Which means you are always going to view yourself in the negative.  you can't embrace yourself with a system of values that demean and devalue your core identity.

I hope it works out for you though.  I think your wife is going to be your biggest ally in this, if you've been honest with her and truthful.  Also I hope you're seeing some kind of therapist, or are able to be completely honest with your bishop or whatever(do mormons do confessionals?  I dunno).

Quote from: cindybc on April 04, 2009, 03:56:42 AM
I am not certain of what the meaning was, I have some ideas, I believe it had something to do as to what lay ahead of me. Before I had ever even given any consideration to transitioning. I would welcome some thoughts on it though. You say you had a vision that lead you to de transitioning I believe mine meant a going int he opposite direction, but it lead to a journey with a purpose I would never have been aware of.

Cindy

Aren't you wiccan?  Or have I confused my people's and their religions?

Sorry Interalia
Not meaning in anyway to steal your serious thread.

But Heatherrose.
We need matching tote bags, the hand bags need extra ammo can you get pink bullets? Putting in for fuel? We have chook raffles in Aus. We could try that to subsidze the project

CJ

What colour can you get Pump Action SGs in? The basic black is banned i Oz

Surendering

I guess that would be 10 years ago now, well, it was a few years before I started my full time. I came home and kicked my shoes off and sat on the couch to relax and begin my daily meditations.

I found myself floating in a thick grey fog, then a short time later I felt my feet touching some type of surface. I thought I had heard something in the distance and stopped stalk still to listen more intently for the sound I thought I had heard. I could hear what sounded  like the soft sobbing of a child, the sound was much closer then I had first thought.

I followed the sobbing until I saw the small hunched-over form of a young child. The child stopped whimpering momentarily, maybe sensing my presence, then resumed her whimpering again. Her shoulders shaking at each whimper. It was a little girl. She wore a blue dress with white frilly sleeves and hem and had two blue ribbons in her hair. To my judgment the little girl was not much over six years old. She looked up at me with tear-smeared sad eyes. I reached out to embrace her in my arms but as soon as I touched her it was like an electrical shock, I was sent flying backwards through the thick fog once more where I found myself drifting in that same grey void I had arrived in.

A short time latter the fog thinned and was whisked away as though by a strong wind, I was once again able to see my surroundings. My surroundings were not immediately familiar to me until a short time later I found myself back to the days of early childhood. I then began to move like a movie on fast forward, where I seen myself feeling and experiencing every emotional scene from earliest childhood to the present time,  which at the time was the year 2000.

I was overwhelmed by all these feelings I had experienced as I sat there doing the only thing that made sense at the time: releasing it through the most profound soul depth tears I had ever cried before in my life.

The next vision I had was few months after the first one.

Possibly a year later, I again was sitting on the couch meditating,  and once again found myself floating in the grey fog. When the fog cleared and I looked about to get my bearings on my surroundings. From the fog emerged another dark form. The form wore some type of cloak standing on a large redtangularly shaped stone, the form held a broad sword point down on the stone slab. I thought that odd, no warrior would treat their sword thusly   

I cautiously approached the dark form, and suddenly it jumped off the stone slab, raising the sword over its head. I was quite aware of the possibility that the intent of this entity whom by now appeared to be quite familiar to me, but could not quite remember from where or when. It never entered my mind that this person may have had the intent to impale me with the sword. For some reason I did not fear him, I just stood my ground, staring him in the eyes, the eyes, hazel green, the eyes as they had been coined, the windows to the soul.

Unmoved and unafraid I watched intently this warrior's every movements and actions action as he took another couple of steps forward. I could see his face clearly now and as the full realization and recognition suddenly struck me, I tingled everywhere as I felt tiny tendrils of goose flesh all over me. A slight breeze arose, ruffling my long hair and ruffling the hem of my long skirts. I continued standing transfixed before this warrior whom I knew to have been part of me in a previous life..

This man lowered the sword, holding it in both hands before him, he then knelt down on his right knee and placed the broad sword on the ground before him, then stood up straight as a soldier and proclaimed that he would fight no more. I was expecting some type of military salute or something but he only stood very straight and still for a couple of seconds studying me. Then turned and walked back toward the stone slab, took his cloak off and draped the stone slab with it, then climbed up and laid on his cloak, and within a few second he closed his eyes and drifted off to sleep.

I, as Cindy, emerged from the vision a short time later. And yes, that was the first time in my life that I had actually seen myself in any type of manifestation in a dream, and it was the last time. Cindy was on her own, but then Cindy truly loves her life. It has been a truly wonderful journey, experience and discovery of who I truly am. Maybe someday I will write my story in it's entirety.       

Cindy

Hi Sarah I practiced Wiccan, which basically means being in harmony with the elements. Also North American Native traditions. Both practices are very close together in practices and basic beliefs.

Cindy

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on April 04, 2009, 04:16:16 AM
I read this whole thing.  It was pretty engrossing and interesting.  It makes me kind of sad too.  You're kind of tearing yourself up over and over, with a belief system that runs exactly counter to your base notions of self.  And rather than accept that there are contradictions, and that's okay, you struggle very intensely with both sides of the argument.  It makes me sad that so many religions do this to their followers.  While I note that it definitely makes the experience much more vivid--it seems unnecessary.  If the Church just had a more open mind on these issues, you would havee been able to live your life as a girl, and as you say over and over, be perfectly happy.  You have both a strong desire to serve your church and you have a very strong identification as a girl.  That those two things are in contest, and not concert, really makes me sad.  Because the sense i got from reading that entry, especially by the end is that the GID is causing you to question the church, rather than embrace it further.  Because what it's embracing, you know is fake.

It's all so black and white, that just reading that I think your future is either in being magically changed in terms of how you identify, or leaving the church again.  It may not happen for years and years, but you can't fully serve a god with a fake persona in between.  God knows who you are.  And if you serve him, if he's at all like most other gods, he demands of you EVERYTHING.  Otherwise you won't get the most out of the relationship, and the monsters you hide will grow and grow until they overtake you.

The flipside of the coin is that your faith right now, intrinsically is against you.  because of what your faith is, your GID and how you view it is always going to be as a negative.  Which means you are always going to view yourself in the negative.  you can't embrace yourself with a system of values that demean and devalue your core identity.

I hope it works out for you though.  I think your wife is going to be your biggest ally in this, if you've been honest with her and truthful.  Also I hope you're seeing some kind of therapist, or are able to be completely honest with your bishop or whatever(do mormons do confessionals?  I dunno).

I'm glad you found it interesting.  As far as denouncing my religion as being intolerant, know that we do have transgendered members that are not excommunicated and are considered full members of the church.  My situation is as such that I feel I received a direct, personal, and powerful revelation that I should de-transition.  That didn't come from my church, but from what I perceive to be God.  Even if I left the church tomorrow it would be hard to deny the experience I had.

You are correct though that GID is a big negative to me.  I have accepted myself as a male with the condition, however there is no cure available to me - so I must learn to live with it.  Other people in this world have conditions far worse than my own that are untreatable - this is just the particular cross I have to bear for this life.  If I can learn anything that will help others bear it better, I will share it openly.

As for my wife, I am completely open with her.  I didn't even agree to marry her until she promised me that she would help me with my GID after we got married and until I was sure she would understand that it would always be a struggle for me.  She has accepted and embraced that challenge for which I am so very grateful.

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 04:27:13 AM
I'm glad you found it interesting.  As far as denouncing my religion as being intolerant, know that we do have transgendered members that are not excommunicated and are considered full members of the church.  My situation is as such that I feel I received a direct, personal, and powerful revelation that I should de-transition.  That didn't come from my church, but from what I perceive to be God.  Even if I left the church tomorrow it would be hard to deny the experience I had.

You are correct though that GID is a big negative to me.  I have accepted myself as a male with the condition, however there is no cure available to me - so I must learn to live with it.  Other people in this world have conditions far worse than my own that are untreatable - this is just the particular cross I have to bear for this life.  If I can learn anything that will help others bear it better, I will share it openly.

As for my wife, I am completely open with her.  I didn't even agree to marry her until she promised me that she would help me with my GID after we got married and until I was sure she would understand that it would always be a struggle for me.  She has accepted and embraced that challenge for which I am so very grateful.

Thank you for the clarification.  So the struggle is between you and God?  That's a heavy battle to forge.  What does God tell you about your GID?  Does he just want you to live with it?  Does he tell you where you can act within your faith to serve him, and also salve those wounds?  Or does he want you to suffer?  Did he tell you why and what you had done?  What are the parameters you have to meet for him to be happy with you?  Is he okay with you identifying as a MTF TS and posting on a transgender board--so long as you yourself do not do anything to act on that identification?

GID a big negative?

Well the DSM creators, bless their little twisted hearts, do define it as a disorder!

Better to think of it as GIB - Gender Identity Blessing, because that is what it is and it is up to us to make the most of it.

Let's be positive here :)

My responses in Bold

Thank you for the clarification.  So the struggle is between you and God?  That's a heavy battle to forge. 

The struggle is between the life my GID wants me to live and living a normal life.

What does God tell you about your GID?  Does he just want you to live with it? 

I don't feel God has told me anything specific about anything other than that I needed to de-transition.  Everything else I say is my speculation.

Does he tell you where you can act within your faith to serve him, and also salve those wounds?  Or does he want you to suffer? 

I feel my GID lessened quite a bit up until recently, but feel it is more manageable now than in the past.  As I've learned more of my "triggers" I've been more successful in stemming off the negative effects.

Did he tell you why and what you had done?  What are the parameters you have to meet for him to be happy with you? 

I feel God wouldn't be "unhappy" with me if I transitioned really.  It was made known to me that I would be of better use to Him and the world if I don't transition and learn how to cope without it.  Then I could teach others so there would be less families and individuals torn apart by this insidious condition.

Is he okay with you identifying as a MTF TS and posting on a transgender board--so long as you yourself do not do anything to act on that identification?

I am a MTF TS by definition.  I am also a mammal and a human. ;)  Posting here allows me to receive support as well as give it - I doubt God has anything against Susan's or the people who post here.

For me this is a situation of choosing between a better and best option.  The "better" option is transition, but the "best" option is not to transition and learn how to do it without killing myself.  I am relying on God for the strength to make it through while I learn these coping techniques to share with others.

Imagine the good that would come about if that husband and father of three who struggles with GID didn't have to leave his family and had another option other than transition.  Who is telling that guy he has a choice and who is doing the research to show him how to make it?  I am, and others like me.  We are paving the way for others in the future to not have to endure the pain we did or so many others that have gone before us.

Hi Imaz, my mate calls it an inestimable gift. I think of it as a destiny, all is as it should be, I am only here to serve Great Spirit whose light grows brighter each day.

Cindy 

BTW, Cindy.  Thank you for sharing your visions.  They were interesting to me.  I myself have never had a vision per se, just very strong feelings I perceive that are coming from beyond myself.

Quite right Cindy, our very existence is a blessing so let's make the most of it.

I'm out now to see a guy a fancy and then to meet a Bollywood superstar this evening! ;D

Word!

Hi Interalia, perhaps you are a sensitive, sensing things that most others around you do not, profound sensings (ESP). There is another name for that *Empathy.* Great Spirit or God if you wish, gives some of his children certain gifts for carrying out different tasks that will require such gifts. A spiritual tool for clearing a path before you for others to follow.

This could be in some ways like trying to herd cats when dealing with beings of free will, each intent on blazing their own trails no mater what the consequences, lost in the darkness of deceit and lies meted out by the tin gods sitting on their tin thrones.

What capacity one wishes to use those gifts is up to that individual to choose. He/she will chose what ever task she/he believes they can best serve. But remember hun, unfortunately not all will want to follow the piper, that is the frustrating, discouraging and most hurtful part of trying to carry out our missions. But it is a following which one can never turn their back on once they have chosen it.

I pray for your success and a safe journey, may Great Spirit guide and protect you.     

Cindy

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 04:47:32 AM
The struggle is between the life my GID wants me to live and living a normal life.

everyone's definition of 'normal' differs, there's no one set definition for 'normality.'
the life your GID wants you to live could be your normality (only if you felt so, of course).
it's harder for me to understand because personally, it's a 'do-or-die' type thing, i don't feel i have much of a choice in transitioning.
but i don't have to understand, and kudos to you for actually being able to manage it.

though what you said can also be interpreted as all of us who transitioned lead abnormal lives.

oh yes and this part is specifically for non-ops, so i'll be on my way.

  why not: mainly because of the cost... its sooo much money

  how i cope:  I just accept that im not really like evryone else, im different, like a different species.~

Quote from: hayden. on April 04, 2009, 05:42:41 AM

it's harder for me to understand because personally, it's a 'do-or-die' type thing, i don't feel i have much of a choice in transitioning.

I always wonder about this line of thought, and just how constructive it is.  When you hold this view, you're positioning your gender as something that happened to you, in the way that someone might talk about getting hit by lightning.  Is it better to take it as this wild thing that you've been afflicted with.  Or better to own it by saying that this is how you are, and transitioning was your ownership of that fact.  I mean, a lot of people don't reveal their true self through their entire lives.  They'll die strangers to everyone, even themselves.  But in a way we're kind of of the stock for whom we said "enough" and went about the business of being ourselves.  There's power there in that action.  Power that you can be proud of and use to hold your head up high when you're confronted with others.

And I just wonder if the "I had no choice in the matter" view is ceding too much.

Surely it is a delicate thing to sort of march around.  But I think it splices pretty well.  You are who you are, and while that is something you were born with--the ways in which you express that self honestly and truthfully to the world is a personal decision.

We all have gender identity, but not all of us have gender expression.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on April 04, 2009, 07:37:39 AM
I always wonder about this line of thought, and just how constructive it is.  When you hold this view, you're positioning your gender as something that happened to you, in the way that someone might talk about getting hit by lightning.  Is it better to take it as this wild thing that you've been afflicted with.  Or better to own it by saying that this is how you are, and transitioning was your ownership of that fact.  I mean, a lot of people don't reveal their true self through their entire lives.  They'll die strangers to everyone, even themselves.  But in a way we're kind of of the stock for whom we said "enough" and went about the business of being ourselves.  There's power there in that action.  Power that you can be proud of and use to hold your head up high when you're confronted with others.

And I just wonder if the "I had no choice in the matter" view is ceding too much.

Surely it is a delicate thing to sort of march around.  But I think it splices pretty well.  You are who you are, and while that is something you were born with--the ways in which you express that self honestly and truthfully to the world is a personal decision.

We all have gender identity, but not all of us have gender expression.

Very wise words to contemplate, thank you  (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cosgan.de%2Fimages%2Fmore%2Fflowers%2F064.gif&hash=6552b1668b2d09a68bc36c8c5a8a9068044f75a9)

Why: I haven't seen a doctor, don't have the money, and resources in my town are limited.

Coping: I must admit that I used to not cope well, I was a self mutilator (a cutter), but have moved more towards writing and reading about others like myself. Just being on this site is a huge way to cope for me.

Quote from: CindyJames on April 03, 2009, 04:32:37 AM
Are non-ops pre ops? certainly some who have responded but if a non-op in a bad emotional and financial situation becomes into a "good situation" has that changed the psyche or the the opportunity, and they can become ops. I don't see myself as non-op, but more unable op. So if we want labels, do we have unable ops are a sub-species of ops and non-opps are a separate phylogeny?

Non-ops are identified from Preops on the basis that they either would not have the surgery even if they could, or on the basis that some medical, psychological, or other condition prevents them from completing the surgical process. Money is not one of those factors. So if someone would have the surgery if only they had the money, then they would indeed be considered preop for the purposes of this web site.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on April 03, 2009, 11:49:24 AMAnd if our beloved Susan restricts this to those who are only non-op for health reason.  That is her call, but I like being here because I am non-op by choice.  And cost is the determining factor.

I am not restricting it in any way. I am just clarifying that money by it's self is not sufficient to make someone a non-op,but someone's choice is. I base this on my own condition. I have not yet had SRS/GRS due to money, but I would have it the moment the funds are available. So on that basis I still consider myself pre-op.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on April 04, 2009, 12:40:38 AM
If you knew my financial situation, the possibility of affording SRS is somewhere between Never and when Hell freezes over.

You decide if it's something that's possible for you or not. You identify yourself as non-op or not. You must decide if you will ever have surgery or not. That's is the sole deciding factor. I am just saying that a current lack of money by it's self does not make one a non-op.

Tanks for the clarification. There was once upon a time I never thought I would find the funds to the means to get the surgery so I resigned myself to being the best me I could be, but then I once thought the same thing with having a relationship with another species of the human race which I thought, never, period.

Working part time as a social worker and receiving a small disability pension sure didn't make me a very good candidate for getting surgery but then I got both the surgery and a mate. Never say never. So I think preop was quite appropriate label for a maybe never. ;D

Cindy

I think lack of funds can definitely spur the conversation of being non-op.  If you don't have funds, you may be trying to learn to accept the situation of not having the surgery, more than you're preparing to have the surgery.  I don't think non-op has to be a monolithic station of everyone being completely so sure in what they are there.

And it seems like for many people here who bring up money, it's not really about their funds, it's about the percieved value of the operation being too low to them versus the cost.

And so I think value is a perfectly acceptable reason to be traveling down the non-op road.

Value I got from Dr Brasard. Pain and other complications? none, discomfort and was walking around the day after the surgery and completely healed in four weeks. It is major surgery, I was an exception to the many,but any post op I know are happy with the results they have. I am not trying to sell anything here just tellin the way it was for me. 

As for having children? Nothing more I wish I could have experienced in my life, but would have been to old to conceive when I got the surgery anyway. I maybe was one of the lucky ones, I have had the opportunity to have11 children in my care through out the years, about as close to mother hood I could ever hope for and I loved those children like they were my own.

Now I have the inestimable gift of living the life of a woman sharing her life with a mate. Ten years ago I never would have dreamed I would ever see this day. My life has been good regardless of all the pit falls and disasters, much of which I was mostly to blame for for making the wrong choices. For once in my life I mad the right choice.

Cindy

Quote from: cindybc on April 04, 2009, 02:49:21 PM
Value I got from Dr Brasard. Pain and other complications? none, discomfort and was walking around the day after the surgery and completely healed in four weeks. It is major surgery, I was an exception to the many,but any post op I know are happy with the results they have. I am not trying to sell anything here just tellin the way it was for me. 

As for having children? Nothing more I wish I could have experienced in my life, but would have been to old to conceive when I got the surgery anyway. I maybe was one of the lucky ones, I have had the opportunity to have11 children in my care through out the years, about as close to mother hood I could ever hope for and I loved those children like they were my own.

Now I have the inestimable gift of living the life of a woman sharing her life with a mate. Ten years ago I never would have dreamed I would ever see this day. My life has been good regardless of all the pit falls and disasters, much of which I was mostly to blame for for making the wrong choices. For once in my life I mad the right choice.

Cindy

Are you making a commission on SRS sales or something? :P

How did you get value from Dr. Broussard?  I don't understand your meaning there.

When I say value, I'm saying it's quite expensive for a surgery that is entirely cosmetic.  If you paid that amount and got a fully functioning reproductive system, it would be one thing.  But you are just paying someone to sculpt your flesh into another form.  I don't see how it's any different than breast augmentation for me personally.

I don't view either as a necessary risk because the final results seem too artificial to me.  My path right now is not towards SRS, so much as it is toward self-acceptance.  I know for some, SRS is part of that self-acceptance, but if I can get there without SRS, I can save myself a lot of pain and money.

In Canada SRS is paid for by the citizens of that province.( tax payers )

I haven't visited the forum much in the last week, so I have just found this thread.

For the time being, and it has been such for 15 years, I am non-op, non-hrt. I transitioned in 1993, and lived as a woman for over a year. While I was happier as a woman than as a man, it ultimately felt like I was exchanging one box for another. There were other circumstances as well, such as no health insurance and inability to find work. I re-transitioned, although I don't consider that I ever returned to being a man. I'm neither gender, or somewhere in between.

Like Interalia, I deal with being a male bodied person with GID the best I can. I also relate to what Sarah, Imaz and Mina have said, there are many risks involved in SRS, and I'm not ready to take those risks. I'm open about who I am to the important people in my life. I accept the possibility that I could wake up tomorrow and decide to do something different. The only thing constant is change.

Thanks Susan for creating this space for those of us who are non-op or exploring that as an option.

Zythyra

Quote from: heatherrose on April 04, 2009, 03:25:49 PM

Interalia Doll, if I may ask...In your heart of hearts if your God
hadn't laid a guilt trip on you, requesting that you "detransition"
and you had the resources would you have the surgery to
"cure" your dysphoria?

Should a sweet inocent baby with a cleft lip be denighed the surgery
nessasary to give them a smile that God obviously
never intended for them to have?

I believe that if God intended for me to be anything, it was a male, but I haven't heard from Him yet so I cannot be totally sure, but reason would seem to dictate such.  However, we live in a world were defects do happen.  I developed a defect in my brain.

As to the "guilt trip" laid upon me, it was nothing of the sort.  Was Moses guilted into leaving his comfortable lifestyle to aid his brethren, the Hebrews?  Was Abraham guilted into sacrificing his son?  No, they did so because they believed that making those tough choices and decisions was ultimately what would be best for themselves and the world.  They acted on faith that God gave them a commandment and they followed it until told to do otherwise.  I am the same.  I believe I was given a commandment by God - a personal one - one that said to de-transition.  Once received, I had a choice, just as Moses and Abraham did, to obey or not.  If I did not, I'm sure I could have just gone on with my life, however if I obey, I open up an opportunity to receive additional blessings, and perhaps do something wonderful on behalf of my fellow brothers and sisters who share in this condition (GID) we have.  Guilt is not an issue - faith is.

Let me therefore, rephrase your question and then answer it:
"Interalia Doll, if I may ask...In your heart of hearts if your God hadn't asked you to exercise faith in him, and "detransition" and you had the resources would you have the surgery to "cure" your dysphoria?"

Yes.  If God had not asked me not to, I would have had the surgery and be living as a female.  But by doing so, I would have missed this opportunity to serve in a capacity I would not have thought possible - to bring hope to those who do not wish to transition - hope that both cognitive and behavioral techniques exist (but are yet undiscovered) that will help one to deal with the symptoms of GID without transition.  I intend to work with those who would pursue the same and find those techniques!

Quote
I believe that if God intended for me to be anything, it was a male, but I haven't heard from Him yet so I cannot be totally sure, but reason would seem to dictate such.  However, we live in a world were defects do happen.  I developed a defect in my brain.

Hi Interalia. This isn't my area, but may I ask why you believe the defect is in the brain rather than the body? Is not our body just a 'shell' according to religion? Why would the body take precedence over the brain? Isn't the brain the 'seat' of who we are?

Quote from: interalia on April 05, 2009, 11:06:33 AM
I believe that if God intended for me to be anything, it was a male, but I haven't heard from Him yet so I cannot be totally sure, but reason would seem to dictate such.  However, we live in a world were defects do happen.  I developed a defect in my brain.

As to the "guilt trip" laid upon me, it was nothing of the sort.  Was Moses guilted into leaving his comfortable lifestyle to aid his brethren, the Hebrews?  Was Abraham guilted into sacrificing his son?  No, they did so because they believed that making those tough choices and decisions was ultimately what would be best for themselves and the world.  They acted on faith that God gave them a commandment and they followed it until told to do otherwise.  I am the same.  I believe I was given a commandment by God - a personal one - one that said to de-transition.  Once received, I had a choice, just as Moses and Abraham did, to obey or not.  If I did not, I'm sure I could have just gone on with my life, however if I obey, I open up an opportunity to receive additional blessings, and perhaps do something wonderful on behalf of my fellow brothers and sisters who share in this condition (GID) we have.  Guilt is not an issue - faith is.

Let me therefore, rephrase your question and then answer it:
"Interalia Doll, if I may ask...In your heart of hearts if your God hadn't asked you to exercise faith in him, and "detransition" and you had the resources would you have the surgery to "cure" your dysphoria?"

Yes.  If God had not asked me not to, I would have had the surgery and be living as a female.  But by doing so, I would have missed this opportunity to serve in a capacity I would not have thought possible - to bring hope to those who do not wish to transition - hope that both cognitive and behavioral techniques exist (but are yet undiscovered) that will help one to deal with the symptoms of GID without transition.  I intend to work with those who would pursue the same and find those techniques!

I still don't understand it interalia.

God asked you? May I ask how God did that, and how you know what God intends, or indeed wants?

Is it written somewhere, or did He communicate this to you in some way?

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Post Merge: April 05, 2009, 01:45:30 PM

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Quote from: heatherrose on April 05, 2009, 01:34:26 PM

Do you cross live at all? Day to day how do you present yourself?
And if you had politely declined your God's request to detransition,
what do you think the outcome would have been for you?
Would you have been excommunicated from your church or
at worst reduced to a smoldering pile of goo? Are there any
fully transitioned, post operative individuals active in your church?

I do not cross live now.  I present as a male physically, but stopped pretending to be something I'm not.  I act as myself.  Sometimes that confuses people or they ask questions related to if I'm gay.  I am open to almost everyone - I don't feel the need to hide it.

Had I declined to detransition, I would have been fine.  I don't think God has some awful hell waiting for me or anyone else with this condition.  I think I would have missed some blessings, but I would have gotten along okay perhaps.  I don't know what would have happened with the church.  It wouldn't have mattered much to me though at that point.

Yes, I know several fully transitioned and operative members in my church who are full and active members.  Excommunication is rare in the church and normally only occurs when you are perceived to be someone who is becoming (or is) an enemy to the church - generally not someone who just struggles with something and still has a testimony.  I say generally because our leaders are not perfect, but where mistakes might be made due to prejudice, etc., I believe a just God will do right by the people who are wrongfully removed - so no worries.

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Post Merge: April 05, 2009, 02:17:34 PM

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Quote from: imaz on April 05, 2009, 01:33:59 PM
I still don't understand it interalia.

God asked you? May I ask how God did that, and how you know what God intends, or indeed wants?

Is it written somewhere, or did He communicate this to you in some way?

I received a powerful prompting from the Holy Ghost (the voice of God), like a piercing voice to my soul as I knelt in prayer on this subject.  The revelation was for none but me - I don't claim to know what God says for other people, but I do believe when He communicates with me it is meant for me to follow it.

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Post Merge: April 05, 2009, 02:26:40 PM

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Quote from: Nero on April 05, 2009, 12:48:11 PM
Hi Interalia. This isn't my area, but may I ask why you believe the defect is in the brain rather than the body? Is not our body just a 'shell' according to religion? Why would the body take precedence over the brain? Isn't the brain the 'seat' of who we are?

Here are a few quote from various posts of mine recently that might better explain my thoughts on myself and my own situation.

Quote from: interalia on April 05, 2009, 10:52:26 AM
As I mentioned before, my body is male, perfectly male in every way from my chromosomes to my physical characteristics.  I do not, however, feel like a male, or in other words, my gender identity is that of a female.  This condition, GID, causes me great stress - therefore it is a problem.  I want to fix the problem.  Most authorities on the subject tell me I must transition to fix the problem.  I feel if I transition that I will be deceiving myself and the world because I will be presenting as that which I am not.  I do not think that transition the only answer. I want to learn how to live with this condition.  As I learn, I want to help others learn to live with it as well - others being those who also do not wish to transition.

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 03:03:10 AM
We may be our minds, but our minds deceive us - a lot even.  Our memories are reconstructive for instance, not photographic.  The mind of a schizophrenic who believes that the CIA is out to get him has a mind that lies to him.  Is his core identity "a person who believes that the CIA is out to get him", or is his core identity not related to his brain disorder.  I see my GID the same way.  I have a condition that makes my brain lie to me.  It tells me I am female when I am clearly not nor was supposed to be.  I do not identify with the lie my brain tells me, no more than I would expect the schizophrenic to either.  Fortunately, the schizophrenic has medication to control his brain, but I do not - so I have to learn other coping techniques.

Quote from: interalia on April 04, 2009, 01:29:02 AM
Me, for those who read my posts should know this already.  But for the purpose of this topic I'll state it again.  I am a MTF TS.  I feel I was supposed to be a male.  I think all of the available evidence based on my chromosomes, physical attributes, etc all point to male.  I believe I was born with a brain defect that messed up my sense of gender identity.  If my brain were fixed, I'd be a whole male as I feel I should have been.

Quote from: interalia on April 03, 2009, 11:29:06 AM
There are those with depressive symptoms that refuse to be treated for them.  That is their right to live how they want to live.  Is a person with a depressed condition due to a mental defect who gets medicated no longer themselves?  Is the real person the depressed one or the non-depressed one?  What is their core identity?  I think their true identity is that of a person without depression - thus the treated version because that is how they would have been without the defect.

In my opinion, GID is the same thing.  It is a mental condition that causes distress.  The real me is not the me with GID, the real me is the me without GID - the me I was supposed to be had I not been born with this condition.  Thus a treatment to fix my "inner self" is a treatment to restore me to what I would have been had I been normal.  My body is not dysfunctional - my brain is.

Quote from: interalia on February 08, 2009, 02:42:23 AM
Hmm...

We know that there is most likely an area of the brain responsible for the sensation (perception) of gender identity.  However we haven't figured out yet where it is located or how it is encoded (or even more specifically, where we can poke at it in a monkey and generalize it to we humans).

But because I DO believe it is there, I think that our GID is much more likely the result of a malfunctioning "gender identity brain center" than a malformed body.  This would make it a mental birth defect - same as schizophrenia or countless others.  Of course, just because it exists biologically doesn't mean that is how it is triggered.  If it had a biological base and an environmental trigger (again like schizophrenia) that could explain the "late-comers" you might say.

Regardless if it is a problem in the mind or a problem in the body right now there isn't a whole heck of a lot you can do about it.  Learn to live with the discomfort or transition (or something in between).  If I am correct, perhaps once we have traumatized enough chimps and rhesus monkeys we will discover where we gain our concept of gender identity and will be able to have it modified.

The next question is though, who would want that modification?  I think for some being "transgendered" has become so central to their identity (what with all the time being so focused on it) that it might be hard to let go - like they had all that pain for nothing.  Bah, this is a discussion for another topic.

Let me know if you have any questions.

The little voice within speaks strongly and is never wrong. In my day it was called knowings.

Cindy

Interalia:

Well, I suppose we may never know which is the defect until those monkeys are traumatized.
Okay, so you subscribe to the brain defect theory. Thing is, schizophrenics have medication to correct it. But the only known cure for GID has been transition. Therapy, shock treatments, etc have not worked. So what are your coping strategies? A schizophrenic cannot be 'talked' into a cure. They need medication. Same with GID. We need medical treatment to alleviate this.

I'm not in anyway trying to judge your choices and decisions; just really curious how you plan to do this.

Quote from: Nero on April 05, 2009, 02:48:31 PM
Interalia:

Well, I suppose we may never know which is the defect until those monkeys are traumatized.
Okay, so you subscribe to the brain defect theory. Thing is, schizophrenics have medication to correct it. But the only known cure for GID has been transition. Therapy, shock treatments, etc have not worked. So what are your coping strategies? A schizophrenic cannot be 'talked' into a cure. They need medication. Same with GID. We need medical treatment to alleviate this.

I'm not in anyway trying to judge your choices and decisions; just really curious how you plan to do this.

By the grace of God. ;)  Ok, j/k, but that does factor a little bit.

I have been experimenting with coping techniques for 7 years now.  If I find one that works, I implement it and use it in my daily life, if it doesn't work, I toss it out.  What I have found, is that the coping techniques often work like prescription medication.  Too much and it can have an adverse affect.

1) I have found out what specific triggers there are for my GID, and using learning-behavior techniques, have taught myself to no longer associate those stimuli with GID thoughts, but with more neutral ones.

2) I have done my best to focus on the things in my life that I have, rather than the things in my life I don't have.

3) I have learned that depression and other negative mental states provoke my GID and the GID persists long after the depressive stimulus is removed.  Thus, I do my best to control and prevent depression and drama in my life.

4) I have learned never, never, never to pretend my GID doesn't exist.  Doing so, even in periods where it is not bothering me as much, always stimulates the return of symptoms and they are normally far worse.

5) This goes along with #4, but I don't try to be anything I'm not.  I stopped playing "roles" for other people.  The roles invariably caused me difficulty as I often tried to appear as "masculine" as I could muster.

6) I am open with others about my condition.  Being open with others allows for greater authenticity in the relationship and less tendency to want to meet their expectations of me as a male.

7) I have several very close friends (including my wife) with whom I can speak to at any time when I start to feel the symptoms come on.  They all know me and my struggles and are there when needed - fortunately I'm relying on them less and less. :)

8) I think of all that I'd lose if I were to transition again and the pain it would bring about.

9) I present myself more androgynously in that I don't try to dress stereotypically for my sex - this prevents me from going into a role that is not conducive with my inner self.

I am experimenting with more techniques right now.  I will tell you if they work and add them to my growing list. ;)  Others that are dealing with this the same way I am have learned some of their own coping techniques but I have not listed the ones that don't also work for me.  For some that is part-time living, or dressing up and going out occasionally.

From the spiritual side.

The innerself knows who it is and will not rest until it establishes itself, till death do us part. A mission is better carried out if the  messenger knows itself and is at peace with him/herself, be it male or female. Even some cisgendered need to find themselves, know who their true inner selves are in order to be at peace with themselves.

Cindy

Quote from: heatherrose on April 05, 2009, 03:53:23 PM

Are you involved in any kind of thereputic counseling outside of your church?
Eventhough some of what I've posted and the manner in which I have presented it,
could be considered quite gruff, please do not think that I am attacking you or your motives.
My disdain is more directed squarely at the organization and supporting membership that seek
to undermine my civil rights at everyturn, utilizing their fortune, gleaned from the congregation.
Please, don't try to convince us that the Mormon church unconditionally accepts alternative lifestyles
with open arms, when their actions and our interactions with the membership denote otherwise.
I am concerned that you are setting yourself up for a great fall by putting your faith in
individuals who are not as supportive of you in your stuggle as you may think. You stated,
"I think of all that I'd lose if I were to transition again and the pain it would bring about."
Your own statement indicates that there is in fact no support
for someone who chooses to transition in your church.

In all the things I said I find support with I did not mention the church.  The church knows next to nothing about my condition and while I am open to them about my situation, they don't pretend to know how to help.  They interact with me as with any other member.

My support comes from my wife and my close friends and from chatting with people on this site occasionally.  My faith is in them, myself, and my God, not the church.

As far as all that I would lose, I'm talking about my wife mostly.  I'd lose my wife - the one person in this world that means more to me than anyone else.  She means more to me than the whole of the church, more to me than my own life.  Transitioning would mean breaking a promise to her, the end of our relationship, and would be incredibly selfish of me.  If ever I'm tempted to transition, all I have to do is come to places like this forum, and read the heartbreak many individuals have gone through losing their wives and children and realize, I could never do that to my own wife.

I won't try to say that the church is accepting of whatever lifestyle, but you must stop putting words in my mouth when it comes to my religion.

Quote from: interalia on April 05, 2009, 02:16:01 PM

I received a powerful prompting from the Holy Ghost (the voice of God), like a piercing voice to my soul as I knelt in prayer on this subject.  The revelation was for none but me - I don't claim to know what God says for other people, but I do believe when He communicates with me it is meant for me to follow it.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Have to say I'm truly shocked, I've never met anyone in my life who has made such a statement.

OK, personally I believe in what is written in the Quran 50:16 about Allah (swt)/God being closer than one's own jugular vein, but that's more His universal presence than actually Him talking to us.

Even the Quran itself was revealed to to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by Jibril/Gabriel so the fact you claim to be in direct contact with the Almighty just leaves me speechless to put it mildly.

Something's not right here.

Quote from: imaz on April 05, 2009, 05:13:46 PM
Have to say I'm truly shocked, I've never met anyone in my life who has made such a statement.

OK, personally I believe in what is written in the Quran 50:16 about Allah (swt)/God being closer than one's own jugular vein, but that's more His universal presence than actually Him talking to us.

Even the Quran itself was revealed to to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by Jibril/Gabriel so the fact you claim to be in direct contact with the Almighty just leaves me speechless to put it mildly.

Something's not right here.

This is not an odd thing to me.  I believe God answers prayers.

Here is a statement from mormon.org that might better explain it:

"Your Heavenly Father is the source of all truth.  He loves you and wants to answer your questions. Therefore, He will help you recognize the truth as you sincerely seek it and ask Him for guidance. You can know if the things you are learning are true if you ask your Heavenly Father in prayer.  He desires for you to know the truth, and you can receive an answer from Him through the Holy Ghost. "

I basically needed an answer, prayed, and received it through the Holy Ghost.  Not all revelations are that powerful, some are like a small voice, but others are as with the voice of thunder - this was how it was for me concerning this particular revelation to de-transition and the blessings that could be had by doing so.

Quote from: heatherrose on April 05, 2009, 05:56:03 PM

On your blog, in your account of your visit with your BISHOP
It would seem that your church knows everything short of your prefered underware style.
Let me guess, you promised your wife that you would never transition again.

:icon_no:

I do wish you many blessings in your journey and all
the strength that the "I am" can bestow on you.

If you want to know where my anti-organized religion bent comes from
Google Search "L.R.Davis, Christian Fellowship Ministries International"

Just watch out for yourself, Doll.

You misunderstand me.  I mean they know next to nothing about how to help with my condition.  I've already mentioned I've told them everything.

I understand your desire to help me see the light, see that I'll never make it as a male, that ultimately I'll lose to this and either give up my life, or transition anyhow.  I've heard it over and over again and there is no way I can prove to you I will make it until I am dead.  That won't stop me from trying.  I'm doing my best to provide an example so people who deal with GID won't feel the hopelessness fostered by attitudes like those who tell me I cannot make it.  I want to show that for some, transition isn't the only option, but that is gonna take, research, work, and a ton of trial and error.  People can support me in my quest or get out of the way. ;)  I hope to find others here, specifically on this non-op board, who are undertaking the same path - that we might be able to support each other and learn how to deal with this together.

Quote from: interalia on April 05, 2009, 05:27:26 PM
This is not an odd thing to me.  I believe God answers prayers.

Here is a statement from mormon.org that might better explain it:

"Your Heavenly Father is the source of all truth.  He loves you and wants to answer your questions. Therefore, He will help you recognize the truth as you sincerely seek it and ask Him for guidance. You can know if the things you are learning are true if you ask your Heavenly Father in prayer.  He desires for you to know the truth, and you can receive an answer from Him through the Holy Ghost. "

I basically needed an answer, prayed, and received it through the Holy Ghost.  Not all revelations are that powerful, some are like a small voice, but others are as with the voice of thunder - this was how it was for me concerning this particular revelation to de-transition and the blessings that could be had by doing so.

"The Holy Ghost"? And what is that exactly?

I may be mistaken but AFAIK the concept of the Trinity was an invention of the Roman Empire for political purposes and not something put forward by the early Christians who were of course in reality Jews.

Jesus was a Jew himself or if one sees it from a traditional Islamic perspective a Muslim in the sense that he truly submitted to God.

Well Interalia, I don't pretend to know or understand how one can make it through GID without transitioning. But as there are many who can't transition for whatever reason (it looked for awhile I might've been one of them), this is certainly a worthy mission you've got here.

Quote from: imaz on April 05, 2009, 06:05:23 PM
"The Holy Ghost"? And what is that exactly?

I may be mistaken but AFAIK the concept of the Trinity was an invention of the Roman Empire for political purposes and not something put forward by the early Christians who were of course in reality Jews.

Jesus was a Jew himself or if one sees it from a traditional Islamic perspective a Muslim in the sense that he truly submitted to God.

Good thing I don't prescribe to the Trinity. ;)

Really you seem an intelligent person.  Check our mormon.org or the official church website lds.org for more information about us.  You might be surprised what you learn. 

As for the Holy Ghost, I believe it to be the 3rd member of the Godhead, a distinct individual whose responsibility is to reveal truth.  Because we believe God to be a physical being and therefore is not everywhere at once, He uses the Holy Ghost to act as a witness to our spirits (our inner core) to tell us what He would have us do.  The Holy Ghost, by virtue of being a Spirit can accomplish this role of revealing truth to all who seek it even at the same time without God making a personal appearance.

This is all Mormon doctrine though and not relevant to the thread.  I'd be happy to talk to you through PM if you'd like to know more.

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Post Merge: April 05, 2009, 06:13:44 PM

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Quote from: Nero on April 05, 2009, 06:07:05 PM
Well Interalia, I don't pretend to know or understand how one can make it through GID without transitioning. But as there are many who can't transition for whatever reason (it looked for awhile I might've been one of them), this is certainly a worthy mission you've got here.

Thank you so very much.  I really hope to be a help to them as well. :D  I pray for my success not only for myself but for all those who need an alternative to transition!  It's too bad that if I'm successful it still might take a generation before my influence  of what I've learned will be felt. Most people would not undertake a path unless they believed it would lead to success and right now, I cannot promise it will be - so I doubt people would willfully undertake what I am trying to do.

Quote from: heatherrose on April 05, 2009, 06:18:47 PM

:icon_bat:

Ok, I'll put the club away.

I'm not talking to an LDS mole, am I?

:police:

Bhahahahaha!  I guess you'll never know! ;)

Quote from: interalia on April 05, 2009, 06:10:33 PM
Good thing I don't prescribe to the Trinity. ;)

Really you seem an intelligent person.  Check our mormon.org or the official church website lds.org for more information about us.  You might be surprised what you learn. 

As for the Holy Ghost, I believe it to be the 3rd member of the Godhead, a distinct individual whose responsibility is to reveal truth.  Because we believe God to be a physical being and therefore is not everywhere at once, He uses the Holy Ghost to act as a witness to our spirits (our inner core) to tell us what He would have us do.  The Holy Ghost, by virtue of being a Spirit can accomplish this role of revealing truth to all who seek it even at the same time without God making a personal appearance.

That's where we agree to disagree. We believe God is everywhere and in the concept of "Taqwa" - the awareness or consciousness of the omniprecence of God and one's behaviour in consequence.

Whilst we believe in Angels and Djin (supernatural beings that like humans have free will as opposed to Angels that do not) We do not however believe in intermediaries between ourselves and God and indeed the Quran warns us against the establishment of a clerical hierarchy.

Enough with religion, it's hardly right for a mega sinner such as myself to lecture on it! >:-)

Quote from: imaz on April 05, 2009, 06:26:16 PM
That's where we agree to disagree. We believe God is everywhere and in the concept of "Taqwa" - the awareness or consciousness of the omniprecence of God and one's behaviour in consequence.

Whilst we believe in Angels and Djin (supernatural beings that like humans have free will as opposed to Angels that do not) We do not however believe in intermediaries between ourselves and God and indeed the Quran warns us against the establishment of a clerical hierarchy.

Enough with religion, it's hardly right for a mega sinner such as myself to lecture on it! >:-)

NP, I figured we'd have different ideas on things.  I just was trying to explain how it is I could come to believe that God spoke to me. ;)  I don't expect anyone to believe my story, but they don't have to.  Regardless of my initial motivation for doing what I'm doing or how supernatural it is, I'm looking for very real answers to problems we face with answers that involve practical techniques. :D

Quote from: imaz on April 05, 2009, 05:13:46 PM
Have to say I'm truly shocked, I've never met anyone in my life who has made such a statement.

OK, personally I believe in what is written in the Quran 50:16 about Allah (swt)/God being closer than one's own jugular vein, but that's more His universal presence than actually Him talking to us.

Even the Quran itself was revealed to to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by Jibril/Gabriel so the fact you claim to be in direct contact with the Almighty just leaves me speechless to put it mildly.

Something's not right here.

I have experienced something very similar to what Interalia described; though the message was not specifically to transition or not to transition, per se.  However it occurred while I was seeking God in this same matter and related to how I was to get through the rest of my life.  As a Christian I also believe that one can talk to God directly and receive direct revelatory responses.

Quote from: imaz on April 05, 2009, 06:05:23 PM
"The Holy Ghost"? And what is that exactly?

I may be mistaken but AFAIK the concept of the Trinity was an invention of the Roman Empire for political purposes and not something put forward by the early Christians who were of course in reality Jews.

Jesus was a Jew himself or if one sees it from a traditional Islamic perspective a Muslim in the sense that he truly submitted to God.

You have already agreed to disagree on this, and I will too.  :)  But since you asked I thought I might as well give an answer from a Christian perspective.  This is slightly lengthy but it's hard to give a 1-sentence answer that still makes sense.  Also if you just ignore this, I'm fine with that. :) If it isn't obvious, I like this sort of theological discussion.

We believe the Bible is a story of redemption, about a God who created humans for a wonderful relationship with Him, but how humans decided we'd rather be lovers of other things - created things, rather than our Creator.  Anyone who has been through a relationship breakup knows of the ugliness that ensues; this was the ultimate breakup.  But God still loved and pursued us anyway and extended his forgiveness to us through Jesus Christ, who was God in the flesh.  There is a price that comes with forgiveness of any kind.  If someone breaks something of yours and doesn't have the money to pay you back, and you forgive them, all is well - but you have borne the cost.  The same goes if someone has insulted you - if you forgive them, it does not make the pain of the insult, which you bear, any less.  Forgiveness is necessary to restore broken relationships.  Having rejected the life for which we were created, there was nothing but death (both physical and spiritual) headed our way.  God himself, in the form of the man Jesus, bore the price of human rejection for all time through his death in our place.  His resurrection from the dead showed he had the power to "cancel our debts" so to speak.  50 days after his resurrection, the "Holy Ghost" or "Holy Spirit" - that is God Himself in Spirit - was given to the followers of Christ on a day called Pentecost.  Why that day?  It is historically and symbolically linked to the Jewish "Feast of Weeks", which was being celebrated at the same time as Pentecost.  The Feast of Weeks celebrates the original giving of the 10 commandments.  The Holy Spirit is thus a sign of the "new covenant" under Christ, as the 10 commandments symbolized the covenant of the Law given to Moses.  (As an aside, we believe the Law was given to illustrate our need for forgiveness.)  For those who accept God's forgiveness through Jesus Christ and resume the relationship for which we were created, the Holy Spirit is with us always as our counselor and comforter, with whom our own human spirits can interact, even as two human spirits can communicate.

That is a nutshell explanation, which hopefully makes some sort of sense.  As for the term "Trinity" it is not found in the Bible; however the Bible does describe one God who has revealed Himself to us in different forms, Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit.  This is something that the early Christians believed.  For example, Paul was a staunch Jew who wrote a large portion of the New Testament (everything between Romans and Philemon) - and he strongly affirms Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God.  It is true that the four "Ecumenical Councils" that took place under the Roman Empire between 325-451 AD affirmed this three-fold concept of one God, but if something is "true" you only discover/affirm it; you don't create it, any more than Newton "created" the concept of gravity when he discovered/affirmed it.  At the time the Roman Empire was in the process of making Christianity the official religion of the Empire and wanted to come to a Church-wide understanding of what the Bible says, so that people would know the difference between "orthodox" belief and the many heretical beliefs that had cropped up by that time.  (And by the way, the term "trinity" was coined by Tertullian, who died in about 220, long before the Roman councils.  Christians needed a term to use instead of 50-word explanation.  Why do we call gravity "gravity"?  I'm not sure, but as long as everyone knows what's being referred to, that is what matters.)

All the best,
Joseph

I am not here nor did I come here to dissuade or persuade anyone against or for their religious beliefs or what gender they should or should not transition to be.  Those are the choices of the individual who holds their own convictions to be true unto themselves.

I can only say that for myself I am where I struggled to be for many years and I certainly am not going back. I am convinced that this was what Great Spirit directed me and to enable me and give me the strength to accomplish whatever my mission as a light worker is to be.

I try to steer away from religions and haven't stepped foot in a church since I was 16 years old for different reasons, among which one was mental abuse. I know some things about religion and I have kept some of the pieces that help me to understand certain aspect of this reality to connect with other potential realities.

Great Spirit or Creator *is creation* and I see the Holy Spirit as the web that binds all in creation as one. Jesus was/is a messenger of the Creator, containing as much of the Spirit of Creator as a human physical body can contain. He came here to show us the way, through the Christ Consciousness.

Interalia, how do you receive your messages from God? I receive mine via my "little voice." The little voice is not audible through my ears. It manifests itself through my own thought processes. Like my own thoughts but not my own, very distinctly not my own, as I have mentioned before on this thread. It is never wrong.

Listen carefully to this little voice, it speaks clearly but it is also so easy to reject or ignore it.

Another way that the little voice comes to me can be right in the middle of typing out a post like I am right now. When I come to the end of the posting to discover that much of what I have typed out was done when I was not conscious of it. Some call it auto writing.

Many a times it comes out more clear and concise than what I could have composed. Sometimes one or two pages long. Pretty good for someone who can only type with two fingers, eh?

No one here can make you do anything, like transition or die, as you are already convinced you are on your way to finding the answer, hon. May God bless if you do.

I mean that most sincerely. But it is just possible that you should be certain and convinced you can accomplish this mission. With that conviction you have something to present at the meeting table called transgender message boards.

Cindy

Quote from: Joseph on April 05, 2009, 08:18:22 PM
I have experienced something very similar to what Interalia described; though the message was not specifically to transition or not to transition, per se.  However it occurred while I was seeking God in this same matter and related to how I was to get through the rest of my life.  As a Christian I also believe that one can talk to God directly and receive direct revelatory responses.

You have already agreed to disagree on this, and I will too.  :)  But since you asked I thought I might as well give an answer from a Christian perspective.  This is slightly lengthy but it's hard to give a 1-sentence answer that still makes sense.  Also if you just ignore this, I'm fine with that. :) If it isn't obvious, I like this sort of theological discussion.

We believe the Bible is a story of redemption, about a God who created humans for a wonderful relationship with Him, but how humans decided we'd rather be lovers of other things - created things, rather than our Creator.  Anyone who has been through a relationship breakup knows of the ugliness that ensues; this was the ultimate breakup.  But God still loved and pursued us anyway and extended his forgiveness to us through Jesus Christ, who was God in the flesh.  There is a price that comes with forgiveness of any kind.  If someone breaks something of yours and doesn't have the money to pay you back, and you forgive them, all is well - but you have borne the cost.  The same goes if someone has insulted you - if you forgive them, it does not make the pain of the insult, which you bear, any less.  Forgiveness is necessary to restore broken relationships.  Having rejected the life for which we were created, there was nothing but death (both physical and spiritual) headed our way.  God himself, in the form of the man Jesus, bore the price of human rejection for all time through his death in our place.  His resurrection from the dead showed he had the power to "cancel our debts" so to speak.  50 days after his resurrection, the "Holy Ghost" or "Holy Spirit" - that is God Himself in Spirit - was given to the followers of Christ on a day called Pentecost.  Why that day?  It is historically and symbolically linked to the Jewish "Feast of Weeks", which was being celebrated at the same time as Pentecost.  The Feast of Weeks celebrates the original giving of the 10 commandments.  The Holy Spirit is thus a sign of the "new covenant" under Christ, as the 10 commandments symbolized the covenant of the Law given to Moses.  (As an aside, we believe the Law was given to illustrate our need for forgiveness.)  For those who accept God's forgiveness through Jesus Christ and resume the relationship for which we were created, the Holy Spirit is with us always as our counselor and comforter, with whom our own human spirits can interact, even as two human spirits can communicate.

That is a nutshell explanation, which hopefully makes some sort of sense.  As for the term "Trinity" it is not found in the Bible; however the Bible does describe one God who has revealed Himself to us in different forms, Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit.  This is something that the early Christians believed.  For example, Paul was a staunch Jew who wrote a large portion of the New Testament (everything between Romans and Philemon) - and he strongly affirms Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God.  It is true that the four "Ecumenical Councils" that took place under the Roman Empire between 325-451 AD affirmed this three-fold concept of one God, but if something is "true" you only discover/affirm it; you don't create it, any more than Newton "created" the concept of gravity when he discovered/affirmed it.  At the time the Roman Empire was in the process of making Christianity the official religion of the Empire and wanted to come to a Church-wide understanding of what the Bible says, so that people would know the difference between "orthodox" belief and the many heretical beliefs that had cropped up by that time.  (And by the way, the term "trinity" was coined by Tertullian, who died in about 220, long before the Roman councils.  Christians needed a term to use instead of 50-word explanation.  Why do we call gravity "gravity"?  I'm not sure, but as long as everyone knows what's being referred to, that is what matters.)

All the best,
Joseph

Thank you for your kind explanation, it had long puzzled me status of the Trinity within the Christian religion.

Unfortunately I'm not at your theological level to be able to take you on with a detailed refutation! ;)

Personally I believe that all three Abrahamic faiths are different interpretations of the same faith. Which of them is right or wrong is not for us to judge but for God alone.

Take care,

imaz

1) Why Not?

Long story short, I'm comfortable between genders... I've been there my whole life and I've found peace with it.

More detailed: When I was born my body appeared male.  I displayed signs of GID as early as 4.  When I hit puberty I showed physical signs of both male and female development.  By my late twenties I began transitioning from presenting full-time as a male to presenting full time as a female.  As a part of that journey I spent a lot of time looking inward at myself and I found that while I was raised "on the wrong side of the gender tracks" I was pretty fundamentally male AND female both in physicality and spirit.  And that shaped my self acceptance of myself.  I did undergo HRT which made my body further aligned towards female.  The remaining male parts, I made peace with.

2)How do I cope?  This question puzzles me because it indicates I should somehow be at odds with my status.  This is just how I am, if that makes any sense? I'm kind of at peace right where I am.

Quote from: heatherrose on April 06, 2009, 11:58:52 PM

So Sweety, would it be out of line to suggest that you identify
more as an androgynous individual than a transsexual?

I'd say not really.  My presentation reads entirely as female.  There is no ambiguity in terms of presentation or the societal roles I fill.  And since my presentation for most my life was male, I have transitioned from one gender to another.

I think some of the difference in my head has been in how my biology aligned.  When I lived as a male, my body was predominantly male with some female physical characteristics.  With the application of HRT, my body has actually flipped to the other side where I am physically predominantly female with some male characteristics.  It's that awareness of a mixed biology throughout my entire life that has shaped my attitude towards GRS.

Hi Pheonix hun
oops! should have scroled back a bit more.

I believe that if one has no intentions on refining their attitudes perceptions and conforming them to more feminine characteristics it would certainly be advisable they remain in the male gender in my opinion. 

And yes if that part of the brain researchers believe truly is feminine in nature, adding estrogen does go a long ways at rewiring the neuropathways. As it did for me after being on HRT for over nine years I can quite assuredly say that I don't think and feel the same way as I did before.

My cognitive processes and long term memories in relation to my present day memories remain unaltered. It is how I process those perceptions is what has changed greatly from the way I did before.

Cindy   

I originally posted here as I was a non-op, because I did not see how I would be able to afford SRS.  And for that I felt like I was attacked by some.

But I have since received several PM from my friends here.  And while I still think that I may not be able to afford it, I will call myself Pre-Op.

I apologize to those here for not being more open to peoples comments.

Thank You to my sisters in the forum for your support.

Janet
Pre-Op and living day to day.

Yes and it gets more interesting every day, The word non-op is rapidly getting to be as controversial and contradictory as the word transgender.

What ever happened to the good old days where the definitions were clearly distinct from one another. "labels!" sheeeeeeesh.

Janet, if you are holding photon #1 in your hand on your end of the room while I hold photon #2 in my hand on the other side of the room, In a room full of photons how can we truly know which photons we are holding?

Cindy

I have posted here previously about my status of not transitioning and about some of my reasoning behind it. I won't get into the issue of labels. They don't really matter to me.

Why haven't I transitioned? In my case, it's complicated. It's not that I don't want to live my life as a woman, or that I can't afford it, or that there is any doubt that I am TS. It's more an issue of weighing losses and gains, responsibilities and desires, futures and pasts. It's not that it's easy for me to live this way. I agonize over it every single day, and I don't know if my decision is really the right one or if it will last. But I also know that my wife and sons are the most important part of my life, and I will do whatever I have to do to avoid hurting them. I also look back with some regret, knowing that I probably should have recognized the true nature of my GID when I was younger and done something about it before I involved others in my life.

How do I cope?  Sometimes not very well, and other times I get by. I fantasize a lot. I crossdress in private sometimes. I have seen therapists. I have taken part in support groups. I sometimes wear  bits of feminine clothing under my clothes, paint my toenails, shave my legs ... lots of little things that are too embarrasing to admit. But, these are trivial things that allow me to feel a little more feminine without hurting people who are imprtant to me. They're silly, and they sometimes make things worse rather than better. They remind me of what could be rather than what is.

I know that I am very lucky to have the life and family that I have. At the same time, I feel so frustrated that I have had this affliction all my life and will always have it, that I have deprived my family of my full energy and attention, and that I always have a part of my that is hidden.

It has always bothered me that there were lots of books and websites that offer support in transitioning, but no one has ever written a book about being TS but living without transitioning. I guess it really wouldn't be that interesting or inspiring.

Steph

That is exactly what I couldn't do. I could not go any longer with the agonising, I had to do something and I didn't want to kill myself. I can be thankful to the church for one thing, a healthy fear of going to Hell is what prevented me from killing myself. So that left only one way to go.

I was already a the bottom of the pit so there was only one way to go and I had nothing to lose. I went up. I had three children and psychotic alcoholic bipolar for a mate. In order to preserve my sanity I chose to just loose it all and ended up on the street. The rest you are welcome to read on my blog.

If you can do it without transition my friend then again I will say may God bless, but I wouldn't want the misery. Not all the family and money in the world is worth that kind of misery. Hun, is it possible that no one has ever written a book because no one hase ever lived long enough with GID to actually finish the books.

I wish I could wright a book that would be supportive of people with any number of disorders, I am a social worker retired but still out there working with people. there is always someone seeking help for something or another. If I can't help them psychologically I can at least buy them a hot dog or drop a quarter in their hat.

Cindy   

Quote from: cindybc on April 07, 2009, 03:54:06 PM
If you can do it without transition my friend then again I will say may God bless, but I wouldn't want the misery. Not all the family and money in the world is worth that kind of misery. Hun, is it possible that no one has ever written a book because no one hase ever lived long enough with GID to actually finish the books.

Cindy   

Maybe this is true.  But a book does need to be written.  I intend to find out how many of us non-transitioners are out there.  I have met several in my time online and I have a close knit group of personal friends.  Perhaps we should find a place to gather, share notes, support each other, and do it without people seeking to undermine what we are attempting or convince us we will fail.

Quote from: stephb on April 07, 2009, 02:55:58 PM
It has always bothered me that there were lots of books and websites that offer support in transitioning, but no one has ever written a book about being TS but living without transitioning. I guess it really wouldn't be that interesting or inspiring.

I'm in the process of writing a book, and have already published some of my writings about my experience on a blog. I'll keep folks posted about it.

Z

Hi Interalia, my intentions were never to stand in your way, but as you know I am also on my own quest. I only wish to gather as much information as I can about any and all gender disorders of both those under the transgender and transsexual classification that may be useful to me to educate those others who will follow.

How else may I best serve anyone, lest I myself learn more about this mysterious syndrome classified as GID. Much about these gender disorders or gender variances still remain a mystery to me even though I have already transitioned for the last 9 years.

Unfortunately sometimes one may come across as being obtrusive just by the kind and manner of questions that may be put forward during the seeking of knowledge. I am thin skinned and there are times I step on someone's toe unintentionally while performing my research. Although a sore toe or two may slow me down some, it does not deter me from my quest. If you feel I have stepped on your toes then you have my apologies to be sure. I have never meant to discourage you from your quest.

I am truly interested in this rather brilliant method of possibly finding a way to help the transgender and transsexual to cope and overcome GID. It would be also to my benefit as well to learn about this wonderful technique that you are proposing.

And again, I do send prayer that you receive the guidance and strength that you will need to accomplish this mission. The little house mouse knows what she is seeking, it's just that sometimes people misunderstand the little house mouse's intentions.  ;D

Cindy

i have never posted anything here before so I hope I am not jumping in somewhwere i shouldnt.

I have never been able to transition due to my marrage and children. When i was in my early 20s I didnt know what i was and tried to live what I believed to be a normal life. I married and had children and continued to live with the constant GID in my head.  I delt with it by distraction and constantly keeping busy. It is livable but became less effective as I grew older. By the time i found out who i was it was too late for me. I cannot allow myself to leave my family and i know my family would not accept me if i did transition . So I continue to de3al with it the sbeast

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Post Merge: April 09, 2009, 03:59:53 AM

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Sorry hit wrong key.

I continue to deal with it the best i can. Hormones help with the mental distress but i can only take them for short periods of time due to the obvious problems they have for a married male person. i once was to the point of suiside but failed. It made me mad to hear people think its for attention as I truely believed I would be dead but didnt count on them coming home early.

This thread started out regarding "Non-Op" and has now turned into one about Non-Transitioning...

Is it just me but surely someone could transition and be "Non-Op", or be Be "Op" and not transition... ;)

As I stated up thread, I'm "Non-Op: because my immune system isn't great, and it would be risky for me. Also to be perfectly honest I prefer natural genitalia whatever sex they may be, and feel the same way about breast implants.

<puts on body armour and steel helmet ;D>

Hi jilledwards I believe you are in the right thread.

I would love to hear from someone who can say that they resisted GID and resisted transitioning and are living happily and content with their choice because they are comfortable and content to live in their birth sex because of their own choice not because they felt they had to in order to please others in their lives.

As for myself all the kings men could not have held back this Humpty Dumpty from jumping across the transition line. I am not knocking anyone in their valiant efforts to not transition but I would like to hear of how you plan on living at peace in your birth gender.

I believe this would be what 80% of the TG TS folks here are probably chomping at the bits waiting to hear. Give those folks a light at the end of the tunnel, (hope) that there is another way without living in misery the rest of their life.

Cindy

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Post Merge: April 09, 2009, 04:18:11 AM

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Hi Imaz you are quite right in your observation but it turned out the  originator of this thread non-op to mean none transitioning.

Cindy

they resisted GID and resisted transitioning and are living happily and content with their choice because they are comfortable and content to live in their birth sex because of their own choice not because they felt they had to in order to please others in their lives.

Hello cindy,

Please believe I never said I was happy. The drive to transition and agony it leaves me with is with me almost constantly now. I suffer from constant depression and have been going to therapists for many years. I wore out the first two theraqpist and the third one is an angel. she has kept me on the sunny side of the turf for almost ten years now. But even with her continued help I know i am running out of rope so to speak.  I am living day to day now with no interest in the future. I guess I will be a good example of the long term effects (55 years) of non transitioning mental status   

Quote from: Kiera on April 09, 2009, 06:42:56 AM
Transition is not a "cure all for everybody", at least not in the sense of the one & only form that many seem to think it must take

This ^ is wisdom.

I think the true secret to a successful transition is to find a place where you are at true peace with yourself.  Equilibrium in your life, however you achieve that.

Quote from: cindybc on April 09, 2009, 01:40:26 AM
Unfortunately sometimes one may come across as being obtrusive just by the kind and manner of questions that may be put forward during the seeking of knowledge. I am thin skinned and there are times I step on someone's toe unintentionally while performing my research. Although a sore toe or two may slow me down some, it does not deter me from my quest. If you feel I have stepped on your toes then you have my apologies to be sure. I have never meant to discourage you from your quest.

None taken whatsoever.  I actually only used your quote in my post above to reference the book thing. :D  I don't feel you a detractor.

Quote from: cindybc on April 09, 2009, 01:40:26 AM
I am truly interested in this rather brilliant method of possibly finding a way to help the transgender and transsexual to cope and overcome GID. It would be also to my benefit as well to learn about this wonderful technique that you are proposing.

Cindy

Quote from: cindybc on April 09, 2009, 04:13:11 AM
Hi jilledwards I believe you are in the right thread.

I would love to hear from someone who can say that they resisted GID and resisted transitioning and are living happily and content with their choice because they are comfortable and content to live in their birth sex because of their own choice not because they felt they had to in order to please others in their lives.

I believe this would be what 80% of the TG TS folks here are probably chomping at the bits waiting to hear. Give those folks a light at the end of the tunnel, (hope) that there is another way without living in misery the rest of their life.

Cindy

How does one really know if they've made it?  I mean, couldn't the argument always be used that either 1) it hasn't really hit yet, or they are in denial, or 2) they are not authentic in their claim to GID?  I'm not asking this because I don't believe people can make it, but if someone really did, would anyone believe them?

I've listed several things I do that have made me successful in dealing with my GID.  It isn't gone all the time, but I've only had two bad episodes in 7 years.  Otherwise it just tends to be a little nagging thought when it affects me, but normally it is inaudible.

Of course, according to some, I'm still young, and could always fail later, or perhaps my GID isn't authentic.

Quote from: imaz on April 09, 2009, 04:09:10 AM
This thread started out regarding "Non-Op" and has now turned into one about Non-Transitioning...

Is it just me but surely someone could transition and be "Non-Op", or be Be "Op" and not transition... ;)

When I transitioned 1st time (in 1993), I was both non-op and non-hrt, living full time.

For now I'm non-transitioning... If I were to transition again in the future, I'd consider hrt. No surgeries for me, thanks.

Z

Hi Interalia hun, well I do pray that we are in touch long enough to find out. It would be wonderful to be able to go to a group like this one some day and say, Hey all, I know of someone who was able to live their lives reasonably at peace in their birth sex and here is how he/she did it. Believe me, I am not mocking you. You method could be the answer seeded by many who are still happily living together with their wives, kids and family. As opposed to the pain of all one can loose through transitioning. Keep me posted.

Cindy

There are all sorts of paths through the world, not all are meant for everyone.  What give strength and hope and power to one, may well destroy another.

People can, and do make all sorts of choices, for all sorts of reasons.  Some save them, others condemn them.

Inertia,

If I am speaking or posting inappropriately please let me know. Since i'm new here i'm afraid of making too many mistakes in protocol.

I respect your desire to cope with your GID condition rather than transition. I really do.
I have coped for many years now myself. At least in making this decision you have the fore knowledge of who you are and have the internet for support and information which I didn't have. 

But I wonder if you really comprehend what that means for you 20, 30, 40, even 50 years from now. Have you ever heard of the Chinese water torture? It's just a harmless drop of water on the forehead. Drip, drip, drip, big deal, but with time it becomes loader,  annoying, irritating, maddening, it wont stop, and is said to drive people to the brink of insanity.  That's what may be there waiting for you. Because it's always going to be there, in the back of you thoughts, it's always there and it's getting loader. 

I told myself the same thing. In my case I can't abandon my family so I'm going to cope its not that bad. Ill keep busy, distract my mind. The kids helped a lot, soccer games, dance, school activities, vacations, but at some point it all catches up. Its loader than ever and you are still (in regards to gender issues) where you were 20, 30 years ago.  Everyone has gone forward with their lives and you're still coping.   It's never going to go away. Being transsexual is about "being" not about "knowing and accepting".  It helps but it's not the same.

In my humble opinion coping is another form of fooling oneself or being in denial. With respect you don't want to be the one that shows what the long term effects of non-transitioning are. They are already there they are the folks like me. Unhappy, half crazy people, with one foot on a banana peel and the other in a grave.   

Please think carefully about having a live of fulfillment and a life of coping. It's not the same. I don't want you to end up here.

Jill

Quote from: jilledwards on April 09, 2009, 03:23:49 PM
Inertia,

If I am speaking or posting inappropriately please let me know. Since i'm new here i'm afraid of making too many mistakes in protocol.

I respect your desire to cope with your GID condition rather than transition. I really do.
I have coped for many years now myself. At least in making this decision you have the fore knowledge of who you are and have the internet for support and information which I didn't have. 

But I wonder if you really comprehend what that means for you 20, 30, 40, even 50 years from now. Have you ever heard of the Chinese water torture? It's just a harmless drop of water on the forehead. Drip, drip, drip, big deal, but with time it becomes loader,  annoying, irritating, maddening, it wont stop, and is said to drive people to the brink of insanity.  That's what may be there waiting for you. Because it's always going to be there, in the back of you thoughts, it's always there and it's getting loader. 

I told myself the same thing. In my case I can't abandon my family so I'm going to cope its not that bad. Ill keep busy, distract my mind. The kids helped a lot, soccer games, dance, school activities, vacations, but at some point it all catches up. Its loader than ever and you are still (in regards to gender issues) where you were 20, 30 years ago.  Everyone has gone forward with their lives and you're still coping.   It's never going to go away. Being transsexual is about "being" not about "knowing and accepting".  It helps but it's not the same.

In my humble opinion coping is another form of fooling oneself or being in denial. With respect you don't want to be the one that shows what the long term effects of non-transitioning are. They are already there they are the folks like me. Unhappy, half crazy people, with one foot on a banana peel and the other in a grave.   

Please think carefully about having a live of fulfillment and a life of coping. It's not the same. I don't want you to end up here.

Jill

I accept your position with complete humility.  I cannot know what it is like to be you, to have spent so long without transitioning, to feel the pain you must feel.  I cannot say that I am the exception, or that I will succeed where you have not.  I have no evidence there is a fix for this, or that I will find it.

Still, I cannot help but recall stephb's story, a 60-something yo TS who has lived without transition and intends to forever out of respect for his wife and child.  You can read it here https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,55483.msg346622.html#msg346622 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,55483.msg346622.html#msg346622)

I respect that you are trying to keep me from making a mistake, from causing any additional harm to myself in pursuit of a fruitless effort.  I must however, respectfully decline your advice.  Even if I don't make it, I will supply valuable information to the next generation, information that they can build upon, until ultimately a way is found.  The question becomes, do we believe there exists in some capacity the ability to live without transitioning, and if we believe the possibility exists, it is worth the effort discovering it?  I do believe that a way exists, and that it is worth my life in pursuit of it.  Even if I fail, others will succeed eventually, and an answer will be reached in time.

Not every scientist lives to see the results of his research, thankfully there are others willing to take it up in his stead.

Hi Interalia, again I say if you can do this without suffering utter misery when you are at your rope's end, hun you have more b..ls then anyone I ever met before in my life.

Did you know hun that there was once upon a time where I actually tempted fate, I looked that son of a bitch eyeball to eyeball and dared him. You know why? Because by this time I had nothing to lose.

There is nothing more dangerous to one and anyone around them then one who has become desperate enough to say they have nothing to lose. But this could also prove to be this person's only salvation from their own self manifested Hell.  ;)

Cindy

Interalia,

Quote from: heatherrose on April 10, 2009, 01:30:39 AM
Interalia,

Doll, how did you come by your user name.
Curious I did a limited Google search and come up with,
the Latin; inter alia, meaning; among other things.
I also found it to be the name of businesses that deal in
delivering messages or the equipment used to do so.
Hmmmm....Among other things are you a messenger?
What message are you trying to deliver?
Who gave it to you to deliver and to who?

:icon_poke:

Interesting, I thought "Interalia" corresponded to the modern Italian "Fra Altri" meaning "among others".... This could theoretically mean either things or people.

I presume the message could be connected to hir religious beliefs.

Better not be as I'm intent on converting the lot of you to Islam and don't want no competition! ;) (joke)

Hehe!

Quote from: interalia on April 09, 2009, 06:13:41 PM
I do believe that a way exists, and that it is worth my life in pursuit of it.

This might very well be true, but the change needs not come from transpeople, but society in general.

Early in transition, I spoke with my minister and explained what was going on with me.  It turned out, one of her colleagues was actively looking into scripture regarding transpeople.  One of the points he focused on was the Story of Adam and Eve the Garden of Eden.  The Garden was, in essence, paradise, a perfect world, until the forbidden fruit was eaten.  Adam and Eve had no concept of gender or their biological differences.

Whether you view the story as fact or metaphor, that point has amazing implications.  Imagine a world where how we appear and act in terms of gender are irrelevant.  In those cases transpeople would not need to change, but could simply be.  "Transition" would be irrelevant.

For most people, the need to transition arises out of the feeling of placing a square peg into a round hole.  The strict rules of society regarding gender make it difficult for us to fit in as we are.  For now our efforts are focused on smooth the edges of our pegs until we fit where we belong.  But slowly there is work being done to change the shape of the holes.  It is possible, that somewhere down the line, future generations will be able to make this change.  But for now, we are in the world as it is, and must cope accordingly.

Iran and Transexuals...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-ayatollah-and-the-transsexual-534482.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-ayatollah-and-the-transsexual-534482.html)

Quote from: heatherrose on April 10, 2009, 01:30:39 AM
Interalia,

Doll, how did you come by your user name.
Curious, I did a limited Google search and come up with,
the Latin; inter alia, meaning; among other things.
I also found it to be the name of businesses that deal in
delivering messages or the equipment used to do so.
Hmmmm....Among other things are you a messenger?
What message are you trying to deliver?
Who gave it to you to deliver and to who?

:icon_poke:

Actually, my name means just that.  Inter alia - "among others".  I am just one among many others in many different things.  Whether is be as a TS, or someone who struggles with GID, to someone who loves board games, to someone who loves mashed potatoes.  I am just one among you.  The name to me demonstrates to others and reminds me that I am no different than anyone else; I am just a human, just as you are, no better or worse, and you deserve all the respect and justice that I would afford myself.

---

Post Merge: April 10, 2009, 11:10:00 AM

---

Quote from: pheonix on April 10, 2009, 08:10:10 AM
This might very well be true, but the change needs not come from transpeople, but society in general.

Early in transition, I spoke with my minister and explained what was going on with me.  It turned out, one of her colleagues was actively looking into scripture regarding transpeople.  One of the points he focused on was the Story of Adam and Eve the Garden of Eden.  The Garden was, in essence, paradise, a perfect world, until the forbidden fruit was eaten.  Adam and Eve had no concept of gender or their biological differences.

Whether you view the story as fact or metaphor, that point has amazing implications.  Imagine a world where how we appear and act in terms of gender are irrelevant.  In those cases transpeople would not need to change, but could simply be.  "Transition" would be irrelevant.

For most people, the need to transition arises out of the feeling of placing a square peg into a round hole.  The strict rules of society regarding gender make it difficult for us to fit in as we are.  For now our efforts are focused on smooth the edges of our pegs until we fit where we belong.  But slowly there is work being done to change the shape of the holes.  It is possible, that somewhere down the line, future generations will be able to make this change.  But for now, we are in the world as it is, and must cope accordingly.

Changing the world would be astounding, but I don't have control over any but myself.  Hence my focus is on how I can change me to better fit within my surroundings.  Your idea is not lost on me though, were the world to be more gender neutral, we'd see much less unhappiness I believe.

Quote from: pheonix on April 10, 2009, 08:10:10 AM
Whether you view the story as fact or metaphor, that point has amazing implications.  Imagine a world where how we appear and act in terms of gender are irrelevant.  In those cases transpeople would not need to change, but could simply be.  "Transition" would be irrelevant.

For most people, the need to transition arises out of the feeling of placing a square peg into a round hole.  The strict rules of society regarding gender make it difficult for us to fit in as we are.  For now our efforts are focused on smooth the edges of our pegs until we fit where we belong.  But slowly there is work being done to change the shape of the holes.  It is possible, that somewhere down the line, future generations will be able to make this change.  But for now, we are in the world as it is, and must cope accordingly.

It's been very important to me throughout my process of discovery to not just transition due to societal discomfort with those who have non binary gender identity or expression. If I decide to transition again, or to do hrt, it needs to be because I want my body in accordance with my internal sense of self, not simply to fit in to other people's  gender construct.

This is also why I am an activist. I want to change the world to one in which it is OK for any person to simply live as who they are, openly and safely. If someone wants to transition, wonderful But they shouldn't have to do it if they'd rather live in an alternate gender space.

Z

It occurs to me that you can have a kind of cancer that you can go into the doctors office and have treated in under an hour.  Or you can have the kind that requires major radical surgery.  Or you can have the kind where they basically tell you how long you have to live.  There are degrees of difference.  Why can't GID be the same way, some cases are mild, others more extreme?

If there were more social acceptance of difference, if you had other ways to channel it, or guide it, other outlets might that in some ways ameleorate some of the problems would it be the same?

And we're taking about the power of the human mind, which can be a pretty awesome force, one that can create the 9th Symphony of Beethoven or the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp - given that range of extremes, there is not much it can't do in between.

We're talking here about a solution that is radical, and one that has only been around for a short time.  Perhaps there are others ways.  Before SRS and HRT people did cope with this and not all killed themselves, so how did they do it?

And I can see where faith would, or could, help.  I'm not into the whole religion deal, but I do understand there is a power there (from god or in your own mind and perhaps the power of a lots of minds focusing on the same concept) something very real, but as yet unmeasureable.  I can't say that god personally led the American Civil Rights movement, but I can say that anytime a bunch of little old ladies lock arms and say, 'god is moving us forward and we ain't gonna let nobody turn us around' you better get the hell out of their way, because the fire hoses, the police dogs and even bullets ain't gonna stop them. 

I see your point, Tekla, but living with GID in a world where there are no options must be vastly different than living with it in one with options known to you, especially when they are inaccessible.  How'd they used to do it?  They didn't know there was any other way.

I made a couple posts early on in this thread, came back and decided they were rather single minded (sorry!  :embarrassed: ) and I deleted them. Only you can know what is right for you, and I commend and respect that you have decided to not transition for whatever reasons. That takes a lot of courage. I only wish you the best of success in whatever you decide to do. ;)

big hugs,
C

disclaimer: opinions that come out of my mouth are not always necessarily those of my brain,  its subsidiaries or affiliates.  :embarrassed:

"Disclaimer." I already told my story in part on the topic in another group on how we coped with GID back in the 50's and 60's. I must say that we all have our own story so this doesn't necessarily reflect anyone else here that have come from that era.

As for the old days, oh I knew something was not right with me but I thought I was the only one in the whole world with this problem. I suffered, I anguished, but had no one to talk about it to so I just went on suffering and anguishing alone in silence, except for those brief times where I could play dress up in privacy and fantasize being who I desired and knew myself to be within. Then one day I discovered the magical elixir, alcohol, which numbed this problem to a greater degree and made life much more tolerable. and for a lot of years I used alcohol to dampen the GID. But in the end even the alcohol failed me, it became as intrusive and troubling as what I sought to escape from to begin with.

This is the analogy of GID versus alcohol I was referring to. I had to choose sobriety or face possible death by cirrhosis of the liver. After I stopped drinking, GID was back with a vengeance, it hit full force and brought me to my knees begging for relief.

Today I see it as a blessing, my entire life was a test with many lessons to learn. Each time I took a wrong turn it was as if there was an invisible hand that stopped me and showed me the way back to the main path in my journey. The lessons and the experience of the journey is not yet over, but the light guiding me grows brighter by every step forward I take.

I have been doing a lot of thinking in the past while. I am doing my best to have an open mind to all possibilities and at my age I probably would be considered an exception or even odd, weird or different but to tell you the truth I have always been a bit contrary to conforming to society's expectations and their ideas of what normal is.

Like I have said, I accept myself as a woman and I define myself as a woman, but I am as unique and different to any other woman as each of them are as different and unique unto them selves in comparison to other women, or men, as far as that goes.

But then after having lived as a woman for nine years I could say that to my own observations how men think and feel is astronomically different in comparison, biff, bam, Chicago, slam, bam and the hell with the stereotype crap. I draw a line around my own definition of how I feel as a woman.

Cindy

My story would be similar. I discovered at about 4 years old that I was different. I also learned very early to hind those feelings. Early on I would dress up when I was alone and this worked for a long time. I still believed that this was some type of perversion. When I was 15 my parents surprised me by returning home early and caught me dressing up in my mother's clothes.

My father went into a rage I had never experienced before.  He beat me half to death. It was as if I didn't exist anymore. Every time I fell down he pulled me back up tearing my mother's cloths as he did. I just remember the pain I finally ended up laying on the floor bleeding everywhere. And my mother was just standing there. I don't know if she was afraid of my father or me. I wasn't allowed to tell the truth about what happened back then but at the time no one would have blamed him anyway. And after all I was the one with the perversion.

After that it was all about inward control. I couldn't use alcohol as it made my desires worse and harder keep inward.  But drugs on the other hand were the answer. (I never said I was really that smart) I found I could cope by living within my own mind. No dressing required no clothes to hide, etc. I could live out entire events and never open my eyes. The level of realism was incredible. I was alive, a real walking, talking, Barbie doll. This worked for a long time. But of course as more and more was needed to continue the maintain level of reality tripping requires it ultimately came crashing down.

After that it's was pure denial and distraction for a long time.  Ultimately I learned that anything I did to control or cope was for me just a temporary band aid and that each seemed to be less and less effective.

Cindy embraces and hugs ((((Jilledwards)))) and says, Welcome home hun.

Cindy

I bet it would be pretty close experience. The results  Jilledwards got from dressing up was more frightening to me then anything else in the world. I did get caught but that wasn't until my late teens and all I got was a good tongue lashing from my dad and a threat that he would parade me around in public in a dress.

That only deterred me from dressing for a short time I just learned how when and where to dress where I wouldn't get caught.

Although there are some of us who did begin transitioning back in the good old days, God bless them.  At least I am going to make the best of what I got left. I have never been more at peace and happy with life before in my entire life.

For an example when my partner and I went for a drive out in the country side today as I sat there in my seat in the passenger side yea I got my side of the vehicle decorated girly like, with flowers and and such on the dash board and a Tinkerbell seat cover.

"Darn right!" I'm doing all I can to make up for lost time. It felt so comfortable Like this was the way it all should have been all my life, I leaned over and put my head on my partners shoulder and just closed my eyes and enjoyed the ecstasy of the moment. I love being the little house mouse. I believe one becomes more comfortable and at peace as time passes by.

Cindy

Cindy and Heatherrose 

I don't know what to say except thanks for inviting me into your home. It feels good to be able to share experiences and feel so welcome.

Thanks

You are quite welcome hun. There are some really genuine caring people on this board whom I believe you will find useful in helping you find your way on your journey to becoming your true self. I'll be around here abouts. My partner and I were again out and about exploring other places to rent out in the country around Vancouver area. I think I like the Ladner area. Anyway we have began an earnest quest for a new apartment.

My story is long and has a long meandering path to finding whom resides within. You are welcome to check out my blog if you wish.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?board=286.0 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?board=286.0)

Cindy

1: Why not?
Several reasons.
Mainly, I'm not sure what my identity is yet.
I kinda doubt that it is male, really, more likely andogyne.
I am afraid of losing friends and friends/family thinking I'm weird.
If I were male I would also be gay, so it would be pretty tough to find a partner, as it's not exactly a piece of cake now.

2: How do I cope with it?
Quite easily, actually.
I'm largely indifferent towards it.
Being born female is just a thing that happened.

I wonder how many people would choose not to have GRS if there were no legal or identity issues with remaining non-op.

1) DMV
2) Social Security
3) Airport Security
4) Medical Records

I may not belong on this board, but my first thought when I woke up from GRS in 2006 was now I'm legal and the Real ID or some weird interpretation of identity by the Bushies can't touch me now unless I want to get married to a man in Texas which I don't.

I didn't choose to go the surgical route because it would allow me to change documents- I went the surgical route because it allowed me to change the parts of my body I'd rather have ripped off with my bare hands than live with any longer.

/subtlety

Quote from: Mister on May 12, 2009, 11:54:29 PM
I didn't choose to go the surgical route because it would allow me to change documents- I went the surgical route because it allowed me to change the parts of my body I'd rather have ripped off with my bare hands than live with any longer.

/subtlety

this. definitely.

Hrmm.
I've been given the green light to have the love spuds cut out, which is happening in approximately sometime in the next six months - as few as three if I'm lucky.
After that, I'm going to have to have a period of reflection and decide whether or not I really need me an axe wound, or whether I'm comfortable keeping the trouser trout.
Considering that my partner is okay whichever way I go and that I don't need a vaginoplasty to get my documents changed to 'F', I'm uncertain as to whether or not I want to blow $30k on a fancy new mimsy, when I don't actually need one.
So at this stage, I'll say I'm non-op.
How do I cope? Dunno. I just do.

Quote from: Nero on May 13, 2009, 12:11:28 AM
this. definitely.

i advocate sticking with the professionals.  they leave fewer scars ;)

Hi Vexing, if you are going as far as it is feasible for you to be as close and as comfortable with who you desire to be; as congruent as you can possibly be; and you desire to complete the journey if you acquire the funds, you are still in my opinion preop even if you never get the complete surgery.

Cindy

Quote from: cindybc on May 13, 2009, 02:16:39 AM
you are still in my opinion preop even if you never get the complete surgery.

Good for you.
In my opinion, I'm not; since I don't know whether I'll want further surgery after an orchidectomy.

After my GRS , I had the good fortune to become afflicted with extensive arthritis. This led to hip replacement plus the continuing need for aquatic exercises. Being Post-op, I can:

1) Join a swimming club where my ID passed the test to join.
2) No paranoia in the locker room
3) No cognitive dissonance at a medical exam not involving extensive medical history.
4) Getting an artificial joint guarantees a body pat down everytime I fly. This includes breasts and between the legs.

I had GRS because I got sick and tired of fighting against gender tyranny. The correct plan is for younger people to integrate themselves into society as non=op if that is their choice. The goal should be to create a cultural change where there is no stigma about being any combination of genders

---

Post Merge: May 13, 2009, 07:57:41 AM

---

This may not sit well with those who believe "in being whole", but I saw GRS as only a political decision just to make dealing with "The Man" less complicated .With different laws and rules , I woulda been fine staying non-op.

---

Post Merge: May 13, 2009, 09:04:55 AM

---

Just to add, I had an orchie in 2004. It may have solved hormone issues, but not legal issues. In 2005, non-ops who lost their homes after Katrina could not find shelter in the great state of Texgas. I did want not ever to be in that situation as I live in a Gulf state. Sorry to bring a heavy political note to this, but that is my view

Quote from: Vexing on May 13, 2009, 03:12:20 AM
Good for you.
In my opinion, I'm not; since I don't know whether I'll want further surgery after an orchidectomy.

Being nearly eight months post-orchi, I have decided for the time being that I do not want any further surgeries.  Being accepted socially as female is more important for me, and after having the "love spuds" removed (as you put them, I like that BTW) I'm more comfortable in my body.

My legal records have all been changed to female and in the eyes of the law and those around me, I'm female.  Basically, I'm integrating into the "woodwork" as it were, and going stealth even though I'm not meaning to.

so...  the general consensus is that an orchi still classifies someone as non-op? 

Quote from: Mister on May 13, 2009, 12:38:21 PM
so...  the general consensus is that an orchi still classifies someone as non-op?

I believe it depends on the individual being asked.  You can call me non-op, pre-op, post-op, whatever...I'm a Woman first.

Quote from: Fae on May 13, 2009, 01:02:03 PM
I believe it depends on the individual being asked.  You can call me non-op, pre-op, post-op, whatever...I'm a Woman first.

Gotcha.  Seems logical to me that orchi = op, BA = op, w/e.  :)

Quote from: Fae on May 13, 2009, 12:36:09 PM
...

My legal records have all been changed to female and in the eyes of the law and those around me, I'm female.

Till you're naked.

QuoteBasically, I'm integrating into the "woodwork" as it were, and going stealth even though I'm not meaning to.

Good luck with the stealth bit... Damn near an impossibility.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Mister on May 13, 2009, 01:04:33 PM
Gotcha.  Seems logical to me that orchi = op, BA = op, w/e.  :)

Within the MTF community, SRS is seen as THE op.
This is mirrored by general society; you ask Joe Schmoe on the street and he'll tell you that full sex change surgery is 'The Op'.

Orchi = Op? So does appendix removal I guess.

Quote from: Vexing on May 13, 2009, 03:41:03 PM

Orchi = Op? So does appendix removal I guess.

A bit pointed, but definitely true w/ both Joe Schmo and most former transsexuals.

Joe Schmoe will reiterate a lot of other ignorant things about TS people, too. 

Quote from: Mister on May 13, 2009, 04:02:43 PM
Joe Schmoe will reiterate a lot of other ignorant things about TS people, too. 

That doesn't preclude him from occasionally being right ;)

Ask Schrödinger's cat.

Cindy 

That doesn't preclude him from occasionally being right

Even broken watches, at least analog ones, are right twice a day.

Zactly!

Quote from: Ladyrider on May 13, 2009, 01:15:12 PM
Till you're naked.

Good luck with the stealth bit... Damn near an impossibility.

-={LR}=-

I don't plan on being naked in public...I'm not a nudist  :P

And yes, I know one can never be completely stealth, especially given this society.

In most states, an orchie does not count as adequate to change your records. The law will only see you as a '' man'' with a little less. Sorry

Quote from: xsocialworker on May 13, 2009, 09:58:14 PM
In most states, an orchie does not count as adequate to change your records. The law will only see you as a '' man'' with a little less. Sorry

Bad news for those in the states, eh? ;)

Quote from: Fae on May 13, 2009, 08:55:35 PM
I don't plan on being naked in public...I'm not a nudist  :P

And yes, I know one can never be completely stealth, especially given this society.

It's nice to be able to plan, but you can't plan for every thing :P

-={LR}=-

Bad news for those in the states, eh?

They could ...
a) organize to change the law
b) move

What they do?  Show up here and bitch.

Quote from: xsocialworker on May 13, 2009, 09:58:14 PM
In most states, an orchie does not count as adequate to change your records. The law will only see you as a '' man'' with a little less. Sorry

In my state it was enough; all my records say female now.  I'm just glad I live in a state that was open enough to do so.

Quote from: tekla on May 14, 2009, 12:05:27 AM
Bad news for those in the states, eh?

They could ...
a) organize to change the law
b) move

What they do?  Show up here and bitch.

nice.

Plenty of organizations are working to change the law across the country. It isn't easy. Meanwhile, in most of the country, the law does not recognize a non-op or pre-op as a female. Social Security did under Clinton, but Bush people changed that. If you don't get GRS or find a way to circumvent
these laws, you are living legally as your birth gender. ( or you can move to the few states that allow a more liberal interpretation like Minnesota and California). Tennessee, Ohio, and Kansas won't change your records even post-op.

Hi everyone,

This is an interesting discussion.  I'm amazed to see so many similar stories that I can so easily identify with.

My reason for staying non-op is simple.  I am married and I will only take this as far as my wife is comfortable with.  She already has enough stress and other issues in her life, and I refuse to do anything to hurt her.

Coping is simple ... I have my wife beside me.  We go clothes shopping together (we both like the same plus size stores, so it makes it fun).

This is a long journey, and I am barely taking the first steps.

I know plenty of women who would have stayed non-op if they could have lived F/T and saved the marriage relationship. That is also common in Gay male relationships.

Quote from: jilledwards on April 11, 2009, 03:43:15 AM
My story would be similar. I discovered at about 4 years old that I was different. I also learned very early to hind those feelings. Early on I would dress up when I was alone and this worked for a long time. I still believed that this was some type of perversion. When I was 15 my parents surprised me by returning home early and caught me dressing up in my mother's clothes.

My father went into a rage I had never experienced before.  He beat me half to death. It was as if I didn't exist anymore. Every time I fell down he pulled me back up tearing my mother's cloths as he did. I just remember the pain I finally ended up laying on the floor bleeding everywhere. And my mother was just standing there. I don't know if she was afraid of my father or me. I wasn't allowed to tell the truth about what happened back then but at the time no one would have blamed him anyway. And after all I was the one with the perversion.

After that it was all about inward control. I couldn't use alcohol as it made my desires worse and harder keep inward.  But drugs on the other hand were the answer. (I never said I was really that smart) I found I could cope by living within my own mind. No dressing required no clothes to hide, etc. I could live out entire events and never open my eyes. The level of realism was incredible. I was alive, a real walking, talking, Barbie doll. This worked for a long time. But of course as more and more was needed to continue the maintain level of reality tripping requires it ultimately came crashing down.

After that it's was pure denial and distraction for a long time.  Ultimately I learned that anything I did to control or cope was for me just a temporary band aid and that each seemed to be less and less effective.

I am simply a man that enjoys having breasts. What would that be considered?  My breasts have greatly improved my sex life (feels great) and I have such a strong standing in my own circles that no one will dare question me on the subject. Although my friends have a feeling that something is different, the fact that I'm married to a beautiful woman has them scratching their heads lol.

I choose to be non-op like a person chooses to be trans. I have been taking hormones for ~2 years. I identify as female, I just don't desire SRS. I don't know how to rationalize it. Someday my feelings may change, but for now, I'm fine with my genitalia.

I realize being non-op will present enormous relationship issues, as well as social and legal.
I wish that I desired SRS 100%. It would make my life a ton easier, not that transition is ever easy.

I am certain to be chastised by 90% of humanity. I may end up alone forever.

Ultimately what matters to me is being real and living authentically. I intend to find or create
happiness, even if the whole world s against me.

Before I started my transition I had regular meetings with a doctor and a psychologist for about 7 years. Their testimonies about my life story and the pain and anguish I've experienced because of what I am helped me to proceed in my treatment quicker.

My mental evaluation by doctors and psychologists specializing in the care of transsexual people lasted only 6 months and then I could begin my hormone therapy and change my name. After a year of HRT I became legally a woman. Then I started to have fears and doubts about the SRS and discussed this with the doctors and they told me to think very carefully about my ability to live without the surgery. Could I be happy, or at least be able to accept myself like this?

I still have the option of surgery if I someday feel I am ready to make such a life altering decision. Mostly I'm worried about the possible complications and what the result might be. I don't want to be disappointed by the surgery. Maybe one day when I have nothing to loose and everything to gain I will go through with it.

I have a boyfriend. Met him when I started the transition and he has always told me that all that matters to him is that I'm happy with myself. No matter what I choose to do or not to do. I'm not sure where life will take me in the future. But right now I feel "at home" with myself. My feelings about myself might change or they might not.

Quote from: Hillarync on July 15, 2010, 11:32:17 AMI am certain to be chastised by 90% of humanity. I may end up alone forever.

This is so not true.  I'm non-op and have been successfully in the dating scene for several years now.  I've been able to avoid the ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<- phenomenon and have had little difficultly locating both men and women who have been coo with me as a person as well as my biology.  It makes dating slightly more difficult (and you need to be prepared to face a lot of rejection) but I've found 1 in 3 people interested in me pre-knowing about my being trans and non-op are still into me after.

The key, like I've discussed numerous times in this forum, is get your head together.  The more comfortable you are with yourself, the easier finding relationships becomes.

thanks pheonix, that gives me hope =)

Actually, I don't think it takes any vast observation skills to find out that the outlaws in this world have a hella lot more solidarity than the straights of any and all stripes.

Quote from: Jill on April 02, 2009, 09:11:22 PM
If you are in this forum, chances are you are a non-op transperson.   So, 1) why not, and 2) how do you cope?

1. I'm non-op because I probably could never get approved to go through with the whole thing, plus I have a funky body and I don't know if I could handle it.  Plus, partial transition is really all I want before I die.

2. I just concentrate on other things, like playing with the dog that's whining at me currently 'cause she dropped the toy and won't bring it to me.  I focus on school and helps me get through everything.

I'm jealous, phoenix.  I haven't been able to start T and I fail at the dating scene entirely, it's been over two years since I've been on a date with anyone, so I'm actually a little scared of starting T because of this.

Quote from: Susan on April 03, 2009, 02:51:31 AM
If the only reason you have not had GRS surgery is the cost, then you would be pre-op not non-op...

definitely

"RRRrribbbbbbit!"

Quote from: Hillarync on July 15, 2010, 11:32:17 AM
I choose to be non-op like a person chooses to be trans.

Hmmmmmm...  I don't think that we chose to be be trans, it's the way we were born.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on July 28, 2010, 07:18:07 AM
Hmmmmmm...  I don't think that we chose to be be trans, it's the way we were born.

-={LR}=-

That's exactly my logic.... re-read. evaluate. comprehend.

Quote from: Hillarync on July 28, 2010, 03:38:19 PM
That's exactly my logic.... re-read. evaluate. comprehend.

Fail - I didn't choose to be trans, whereas you choose to be non-op.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on July 28, 2010, 05:03:06 PM
Fail - I didn't choose to be trans, whereas you choose to be non-op.

-={LR}=-

Wow, how do you decide who chooses what?  Without getting philosophical, perhaps what we call a non-op trans is inborn as you believe being a "non-"non-op trans is.

I personally make no opinion on the subject, but I find it interesting that someone trans would claim that their version of trans is inborn while another's is a choice.

It's about responsibility Interalia, you have all of it, she has none.

Quote from: Ladyrider on July 28, 2010, 05:03:06 PM
Fail - I didn't choose to be trans, whereas you choose to be non-op.

-={LR}=-

I just want to note that this sort of statement is totally unacceptable on our forum, to suggest that being non-op is a failure.

Normally I would delete such hurtful comments but I really enjoyed Interalias and Teklas responses. Thanks guys.

Cheers
Nicole

I feel like being "non-op" is a part of my identity just as much as being trans is.
If this makes me less "pure" of a female in your perception that's fine, I don't care.
I identify as female. I am a female.

Not undergoing GRS does not make my transition "incomplete".
I cannot possibly express why my identity is the way that it is.
I don't claim to know why I am who I am.

We all transition to become ourselves, how we feel and know ourselves.
The semantics of my original statement might be better portrayed as:
"I choose to be non-op just the same as one chooses to become post-op"

Not every trans-person has the same journey, nor the same destination.

Quote from: Hillarync on July 29, 2010, 10:42:17 AM
I feel like being "non-op" is a part of my identity just as much as being trans is.
If this makes me less "pure" of a female in your perception that's fine, I don't care.
I identify as female. I am a female.

Not undergoing GRS does not make my transition "incomplete".
I cannot possibly express why my identity is the way that it is.
I don't claim to know why I am who I am.

We all transition to become ourselves, how we feel and know ourselves.
The semantics of my original statement might be better portrayed as:
"I choose to be non-op just the same as one chooses to become post-op"

Not every trans-person has the same journey, nor the same destination.

The problem is that we have various levels of GID.  Mine is extreme to the point i can not envision my life with anything but the right parts between my legs.  For people like me we cant imagine anyone who is TS wanting to keep that thing, however, your level of Disphoria might not be to the same as mine or even more so, you level of tolerance and control could be higher then mine, your able to handle it while we cannot, doesnt make you any less TS, that aspect of being TS just doesnt bug you as much. 

Thats how i see it.

The only time i see it as being a choice is if you choose to do it for money and not to fix anything internally.  You cannot deny that some men take hormones to go into the adult industries, maybe they have a tough time making it on their own, or whatever.. but there are people that make the choice to take HRT but they are not TS.

I only had the surgery because I needed to feel as complete as I could, but seeing that I thought I was not going to have another relationship with anyone else of either sex, so I could have stayed non-op and feel as complete as I needed to be.

I now have a partner of the same sex. M-F and we are a married couple and we are happy to share intimacy 24-7 without sex. Inborn or not inborn, who am I to say or pass judgment? I am not the one to make such psychological and physical analysis about any one else, except by the behavior or symptoms

Cindy.

The problem with LR's comments is how grounded they are in physical biology.  And biology isn't that simple to cleanly define the genders as she'd like to believe.

I was identified male at birth and raised male despite the fact my biology was and is somewhere in between.  For me GID arose mostly because my societal roles were out of synch; the physical elements were less out of synch with my perceived gender.

When I started to transition - the changes from HRT resolved the physical triggers sufficient enough it was controllable -- when coupled with living female my GID became practically non-existent.

At no point have any medical professionals (all of whom follow the SoC)  questioned my transition.  I'm fully accepted into society as a female (to the point where I have difficulty convincing people I do out myself to that I have divergent biology).  It's ironic that only in the trans community that I find people lacking in acceptance.  I often wonder if there's a fear on their part that my existence could de-legitimize theirs?  I can't understand where else statements like LR's come from...

@ Zumi

If I had not began hormone treatment I would have killed myself. I do understand that I'm probably
somewhere in the gender spectrum that isn't the vanilla MtF hormones > GRS. I'm fine with that.

I would say there are different forms of dysphoria, but to assume another's is "easier to deal with"
is utterly ignorant.

edit: for crankiness

Quote from: Nicky on July 29, 2010, 04:50:31 AM
I just want to note that this sort of statement is totally unacceptable on our forum, to suggest that being non-op is a failure.

Normally I would delete such hurtful comments but I really enjoyed Interalias and Teklas responses. Thanks guys.

Cheers
Nicole

Well, it's a good thing she wasn't suggesting that, then! She was saying that Hillary failed to comprehend what she saw as a plainly obvious point she was making. Now, she could have said so in a nicer (albeit more wordy) manner; furthermore, I think she was wrong, and telling someone else that their identity is "a choice" tends to be seriously problematic. But I don't think anything she said was quite as abusive as what you understood her to say.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 29, 2010, 08:01:43 PM
Well, it's a good thing she wasn't suggesting that, then! She was saying that Hillary failed to comprehend what she saw as a plainly obvious point she was making. Now, she could have said so in a nicer (albeit more wordy) manner; furthermore, I think she was wrong, and telling someone else that their identity is "a choice" tends to be seriously problematic. But I don't think anything she said was quite as abusive as what you understood her to say.

alyssa,

LR has a history in coming in here and claiming Non-Op transpeople aren't trans.  Her intent was pretty obvious.  It's a ->-bleeped-<-ty thing to see in a support forum.

If you have any concerns over my actions send me a pm or contact susan thanks! (rather than discuss it out here), happy to seek a second opinion.

Cheers
Nicole

Please forgive me for intruding, but isn't the whole point of being transsexual that gender and sex aren't the same thing? So what would make a non op any less of a woman just because she has a penis? I see a lot of mtfs shun non ops and it does disappoint me.

I was really surprised that some people here are so unaccepting of us who have doubts about surgery or just simply don't want to go through with it.

My biggest concern is the fact that I might not have enough physical material for the best surgical result.
So at the moment I am not ready to be sliced and diced and then realize that I'm not happy with my new genitals.
I will not take that risk even though I've wanted the surgery since I was a child. It's just that now I know it isn't that easy.

Quote from: Fata Morgana on July 30, 2010, 08:31:16 AM
I was really surprised that some people here are so unaccepting of us who have doubts about surgery or just simply don't want to go through with it.

My biggest concern is the fact that I might not have enough physical material for the best surgical result.
So at the moment I am not ready to be sliced and diced and then realize that I'm not happy with my new genitals.
I will not take that risk even though I've wanted the surgery since I was a child. It's just that now I know it isn't that easy.

I honestly kind of feel the same. When I was a child, I wanted to be completely physically female. Like many others,
I'm sure, I would cry myself to sleep hoping and praying that I would wake up as a girl bottom parts and all.
It could be that I've just become so frightened and overwhelmed with what I'd have to go through, but I
don't know. If I could push a button and have real female genitalia, rather than the neo-vagina that is produced
through surgery, I would not hesitate to mash the heck out of it.

I have been transitioning alone for ~2 years. It's been really scary. I do intend to have an orchi whenever
I can gather the means to do so, but the vaginoplasty just doesn't seem very promising.

I think that it's just easier on my mind to convince myself that I'm happy with what I have, but I
really do go back and forth. It's a conflict that is ongoing. Because of this, I don't want to rush
into anything that I might seriously regret.

That being said, I may end up concluding that being non-op is really what I want. I'm not at a stage
where I can say GRS is what I want.

I don't know where I'm going with this rant, I need to experience more, and think more, before I
will know who I am.

Quote from: Nicky on July 29, 2010, 04:50:31 AM
I just want to note that this sort of statement is totally unacceptable on our forum, to suggest that being non-op is a failure.

Normally I would delete such hurtful comments but I really enjoyed Interalias and Teklas responses. Thanks guys.

Cheers
Nicole

Errrrrrr...  Just to clarify things a little here...

I was replying to this:

QuoteQuote from: Hillarync on July 28, 2010, 04:38:19 pm
That's exactly my logic.... re-read. evaluate. comprehend.

She asked me to re-read, evaluate, comprehend her logic.  Which I did.  My conclusion was that her logic failed, and I stand by my comment that I didn't choose to be TS, I was born this way, whereas being non-op is a choice, still ts but choosing not to have surgery.

I didn't deny her right to be, I didn't insult her or anyone else here.  Is that a little clearer now?

QuoteLR has a history in coming in here and claiming Non-Op transpeople aren't trans.  Her intent was pretty obvious.  It's a ->-bleeped-<-ty thing to see in a support forum.

Please don't talk about me as if I'm not here pheonix, and I think I explained my intent.

Quote from: tekla on July 28, 2010, 11:31:54 PM
It's about responsibility Interalia, you have all of it, she has none.

Oh dear is that the best you could come up with sweetie, feeling down it the dumps today.  Later maybe. :)

-={LR}=-

I understand you completely ladyrider, and I apologize for my initial arrogance which spurred the conflict.

Quote from: Hillarync on July 29, 2010, 06:37:13 PM
@ Zumi

If I had not began hormone treatment I would have killed myself. I do understand that I'm probably
somewhere in the gender spectrum that isn't the vanilla MtF hormones > GRS. I'm fine with that.

I would say there are different forms of dysphoria, but to assume another's is "easier to deal with"
is utterly ignorant.

edit: for crankiness

Didnt say anything about it being easier to deal with, i just said your tolerance for handling it is greater then mine.

Quote from: pheonix on July 29, 2010, 09:29:20 PM
alyssa,

LR has a history in coming in here and claiming Non-Op transpeople aren't trans.  Her intent was pretty obvious.  It's a ->-bleeped-<-ty thing to see in a support forum.

I will take your word for it, and in retrospect, I ought to have kept my thoughts to myself, as this isn't my place to speak. I hope I didn't offend anyone; I will take my leave now.

Quote from: Hillarync on July 30, 2010, 06:09:43 PM
I understand you completely ladyrider, and I apologize for my initial arrogance which spurred the conflict.

And I certainly apologize as my reply was not meant to offend anyone, and to add... I don't believe you were being arrogant at all, just vigorously defending yourself.  I will admit that sometimes I come across as a self centred Bitch but if the truth be know I'm a real sweetie.  Having said that there are some arrogant buffoons here who do their best to demean others and seem to get away with it.

-={LR}=-

Sorry LR, my bad, I misinterpreted things.

Quote from: Nicky on July 31, 2010, 05:15:33 AM
Sorry LR, my bad, I misinterpreted things.

Thanks Nicky. :)

-={LR}=-

     I have never had a problem with having a penis, just being a "man".  I have always wanted to transition and intend to get FFS.  I have been on Hormones for maybe 6 years.  I will probably get an orchi, though I could afford the hole shebang, (pun intended). It just doesn't seem like a necessary step for me.  I could see how it might make it easier if I should have to go to a hospital or senior home at some future date.  I avoid being arrested.  But all the reasons that I can think of to get it done are for the comfort of others, not me.  I would keep my "M' status even if I had it because I want my wife to be able to collect social security based on my earnings and non-Federal recognition of gay marriages might leave that problematic.  She would back whatever I choose.  Our current sex life involves touching, kissing, oral.  I have had male lovers in the past (I am a serial monogomist) and seem to be able to satisfy all with what I have.  Certainly, if I could just swallow a pill and wake up tomorrow "changed" I would do so.  Sorry if this is a bit rambling.
     Now, how do I cope.  I have a wife who loves me totally.  We are BFF's, sisters, lovers.  We check out guys, sometimes, and compare notes.  If he is really hot, our special phrase is, "we share!" Of course we would never attempt it.  I switch to female mode around the house, and do as much in public as I can.  I manage to hang on to a well paying job that allows us to live, save, and still spend a significant amount on clothes to find my "style."  I would like to transition completely at some point, after FFS, and have the Orchi mostly so that I can decrease the hormone regimen.  Losing the extra baggage wouldn't hurt.  I firmly believe, as do my shrinks, that I am fully transsexual. 
     When I look at the stats on the financial outlook for Transsexuals it is frightening.   I saw a study in San Fran, on transsexual incomes in that bay area and it is far below averages for people with similar backgrounds. Sure, some do well, but not on average.  I have watched a number of people in my support group go full time, lose jobs that they were "sure" they would keep, and are now living full time in abject squalor.  They certainly cannot afford any of the extremely expensive operations, treatments, etc. that would allow them to fit in.
      I have lived financially secure, as well as poor.  While I don't need to be rich, I prefer being secure.  Far easier to maintain a long term relationship, health benes, and maybe even retire someday.  I can actually make a choice to transition or not, while having food on my table and maintaining my little family. 
     The reason that I have been prattling on is to flog the stodgy, slow path.  Get an education, get into a profession or trade, establish business networks, have friends and lovers that accept you for you.  You may find that success takes the "edge off".  Take hormones, be yourself on weekends, see if  the middle way works for you grasshopper.  Maybe it won't. Just listen to Your heart and not what someone who claims to be a "true" transexual says.  My way wouldn't work for others, don't claim that it will. But I do believe that a middle path is possible for many.  Sorry if this is preachy, I certainly believe that GRS is appropriate for some, but for many 90% of what they want will be enough, financially and socially, to get them through.

I am moving toward the transsexual conundrum but I'm not going to transition or take hormones (health reasons).  I believe that it isn't for me personally.

Gennee

There at two parts of me that conflict.

My emotions tell me why the hell would any of you want to keep the damn thing? or not take hormones?  When i see a woman's body and my body with all its imperfections i want to cry the biggest imperfection being whats in between my legs.  I know there are ugly women, but they are still women, and its a feeling of difference that supersedes physical beauty or ugly for that matter to the point where in my mind i am screaming to get the damn thing fixed, and frustrated that i have to wait to do it, i cant even imagine my life with it... i wouldnt be complete.

However,
My Mind tells me, people arent like me, there are many different people, all born differently, raised differently, have different characteristics, and my life experiences do not trump theirs.  So while a part of me thinks your crazy to keep it, the rational part understands that you are you, and i am not you, you of all people, know what is best for your body and i would get just as pissed if other people told me there opinions on MY life.

Its important to balance and see both sides, and know we are all biased in our opinions, but if we just step back, maybe some understanding could be reached about each other. 

good luck to everyone in whatever path they choose.

the trouble with allowing non-ops under the TS label is that it gives ammunition to the bigots and fools who say sexchange is a waste of money as if some so-called TS likes dressing up as a woman and keeps and uses his penis then in effect he and all other TS are nothing but crossdressers and autogynes and there is no need for any sexchange surgery industry - just ship em all off to CAMH and let Blanchard and Zucker shape em up and happy to be men. 
Is there an equivalent to CAMH for so-called FtMs where they can be sent to be told to enjoy being lesbians in denial and stop having silly notions of getting top and bottom surgery?
It is curious that CAMH or anyone else doesn't seem to have any interest in the FtM.  Are there any reparative therapy boosters who claim that no girl needs to be FtM?   

lilacwoman, I have seen this argument presented before, but I struggle to understand it.  I responded to a smiliar concern on another thread, so I will paraphrase myself here.

The concern appears to be that, if some transsexuals can live relatively successfully without undergoing medical transition, this would undermine the need to provide any sort of medical treatment for transsexuals.  How does that work?  Different things work for different people and each choice should be respected.  Just because a few people can keep going without medical treatment in no way implies that all can.

And I am not sure I like this implication that those who opt out of medical treatment are not "true" transsexuals.  We are just transsexuals who have made a different choice to yours.  It is not a matter of "allowing" us under the TS label.  We fall under it, like it or not.

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 12, 2010, 04:46:47 AM
the trouble with allowing non-ops under the TS label is that it gives ammunition to the bigots and fools who say sexchange is a waste of money as if some so-called TS likes dressing up as a woman and keeps and uses his penis then in effect he and all other TS are nothing but crossdressers and autogynes and there is no need for any sexchange surgery industry.

The bigots and the people who are uncomfortable with TS in general will always find silly reasons for not liking us and thinking we're sick or inferior, no matter if there are non-op TS people out there or not. Empowerment is more important and useful than adjusting to the bigots more than is okay for us just to try to please them. Hey, they don't like me, I don't like them, I don't even really tolerate them so it goes both ways and so I'm not any better than they are. But as long as we just avoid each other and don't try to make other people's lives miserable, what the heck? I would never expect bigots to adjust to my wishes more than they are ready to do without feeling uncomfortable.

And given that the operation is risky and in some cases contra-indicated for health reasons (diabetes etc.), it would be very unfair to refuse the TS label to non-op transsexuals. Comparing the pros and cons leads to different results and decisions depending on the individual. Being TS does not mean this forces you to do the whole transition, in fact each step is a choice you make yourself. We are the actors of our lives, not the objects. There is really nothing which anyone REALLY MUST do with their lives but go to the bathroom, breathe and finally die. Even eating and drinking is a choice.

Quote from: Papillon on August 12, 2010, 05:17:02 AM
lilacwoman, I have seen this argument presented before, but I struggle to understand it.  I responded to a smiliar concern on another thread, so I will paraphrase myself here.

The concern appears to be that, if some transsexuals can live relatively successfully without undergoing medical transition, this would undermine the need to provide any sort of medical treatment for transsexuals.  How does that work?  Different things work for different people and each choice should be respected.  Just because a few people can keep going without medical treatment in no way implies that all can.

And I am not sure I like this implication that those who opt out of medical treatment are not "true" transsexuals.  We are just transsexuals who have made a different choice to yours.  It is not a matter of "allowing" us under the TS label.  We fall under it, like it or not.

Papillon - take the word "relatively" out (my life is damned good tyvm :p) and Amen brother .

When they treat cancer, doctors start with the least invasive procedure before they work their way to some of the more life altering treatments.  Just because they can stop the cancer without chemotherapy, doesn't make it not cancer.  IMO, it's similar with GID and the medical designation as transsexual.

To be fair, my own circumstances are rare.  I was born physically between genders, so I have years of dealing with a not-ideal body.   The changes of HRT: the further breast development; the softening of my facial features; the changes in skin texture, significantly reduced my physical dysphoria.   I'm also lucky because I am highly passable  - I've integrated very easily into society.  That all but eliminated the  social dysphoria I felt.  I recognize that without my perfect storm of circumstances, the idea of grs would be far more necessary.  From what I've learned talking with other non-op TS folks, others have similar mitigating factors which lessened their drive.

One of the problems with eliminating non-ops from the TS definition is the underlying motivations are the same... there's no autogynephelia - my motivations aren't sexual; there's no gay male in denial; I'm certainly not a crossdresser - i have no concept of a personal male identity; I'm not gender queer trying to break established social norms.  The root causes of my transition are the same as every other transsexual man or woman, I was not comfortable living my life in the physical and social conditions of my assigned gender.  From a dataset standpoint, transsexual is my grouping... I'm an outlier, no doubt, but it doesn't prevent my assignment to the transsexual data set.  Nor should my status as an outlier affect the validity of GRS or treatments for other transsexuals.

Quote from: Fencesitter on August 12, 2010, 05:51:46 AM
And given that the operation is risky and in some cases contra-indicated for health reasons (diabetes etc.),

If I were handling the definitions, an inability to have surgeries due to medical or financial reasons doesn't exclude a transperson from inclusion in the "op" flavor of things.   One's inability to undergo procedures doesn't mean that person does not want them.  But that's just my personal take.

I'm not transitioning mostly out of self-hate and fear right now, I think. I am short (only 5'2") with a giant head, and as it stands right now I CAN NOT PASS so I have no idea whether starting T would make me look even freakier. I've recently realized that over the years I've developed a lot of mannerisms that people accept in a female because they think of women as innately nonthreatening, but these same traits in a male mark him as a predatory individual, and I'm aware of how much work I have to put in to changing my behavior so that if I ever feel ready or willing to transition I'll be someone that people will at least want to befriend. General opinion with the <10 people I'm out to is that I would look really bizarre if I got top surgery, but I'm not sure since I haven't started T, and I'm scared to start T because I'm afraid I'll look very strange if I do. To compound this all I like men, but I can't stand the idea of anal penetration, and I'm also scared about losing my ability to have orgasms and what sex would be like in general. I don't like the physical reality of things much now; I like the emotional closeness, but I'm scared things will get worse if I start transitioning. I feel like it would be a bad decision for me to transition and lose my husband (who I really, really love- I wish I could keep pretending to be a woman for him) over it and then face not only the stigma of being transgender, but also of being a gay man.

A friend of mine told me today that she's starting her transition into a female body, and I'm happy for her, but she's younger than me and so much braver and it makes me hate myself that she's brave enough to go through with it, being a Latin-American and having all that extra baggage to get through, and In all my privilege I'm still too much of a coward to stop ->-bleeped-<-ing around with this masquerade.

It could be too early to tell whether SRS could possibly be right for me, or even if T is right for me. I'm only 21, and I've been struggling with my gender/sex incongruity for as long as I can remember. I really don't know what to do, I am very afraid to transition but living as a woman when I know damn well I'm not is getting me down. I try to tell myself it doesn't matter, but it does; I know I'm lying to myself. My body is very, very feminine, I genuinely feel like I'm wearing a bra full of water balloons and I wish it were as simple as taking it off.

Quote
It could be too early to tell whether SRS could possibly be right for me, or even if T is right for me. I'm only 21, and I've been struggling with my gender/sex incongruity for as long as I can remember. I really don't know what to do, I am very afraid to transition but living as a woman when I know damn well I'm not is getting me down.

It takes a long time to work through these kind of questions and find the answers or the path that's right for you. It's worth considering that you may underestimate the kinds of physical transformation that are possible - I know that I did. Have you seen before and after pictures of people who started with a similar body to you?

Many people also find therapy extremely useful as part of the process of figuring things out - have you thought about it?

Quote from: shoegazer on August 13, 2010, 04:01:33 AM
It takes a long time to work through these kind of questions and find the answers or the path that's right for you. It's worth considering that you may underestimate the kinds of physical transformation that are possible - I know that I did. Have you seen before and after pictures of people who started with a similar body to you?

Many people also find therapy extremely useful as part of the process of figuring things out - have you thought about it?

I haven't seen many before/after pictures in general, but the ones I've seen I've been lukewarm about. I'm debating starting therapy, I'm not sure I can afford it because I think the army will drop the insurance I have through my husband (and kick him out!) and I can't afford it without the insurance. I'm not sure what the army is on transgendered individuals, but I've seen how they feel about homosexuals so I really don't want to take chances. He'll be out in like two years if everything goes according to plan, so I'll probably be sticking it out for another two years unless I stumble into a fantastic job before then. He knows how I feel, but he's stated that he's not sexually attracted to men, so that's another complication. I hope we would still be friends but I'm afraid he wouldn't want to talk to me anymore because of the memories making things too awkward.

Quote from: pheonix on August 12, 2010, 06:33:58 AM
If I were handling the definitions, an inability to have surgeries due to medical or financial reasons doesn't exclude a transperson from inclusion in the "op" flavor of things.   One's inability to undergo procedures doesn't mean that person does not want them.  But that's just my personal take.

At the same time, it doesn't really exclude them from non-op.  I feel out of place in the op group even though I want it because I know I won't have it*.  While I'm happy for those who are able to realize that particular goal they have, I find myself avoiding such discussions because it is painful.  I'm making my peace with the fact and going to places more allied with how my life will go.

I actually came to this approach thanks to knowing people dealing with infertility and the pain they suffered for a long time due to dealing with so many others, e.g. one thought "I'd trade you a cellar of the finest wines to be in your position" when a pregnant acquaintance complained to her about being unable to drink.  After trying what they were comfortable with they decided to accept being childfree.  It didn't mean they were no longer open to the idea of having children, much less that they would be unhappy to have that happen should it, but that they weren't going to continue to invest time and energy (including emotional energy) into it - they accepted it and made their peace with that fact, left parenting communities, and got on with their lives.

* Yes, I realize there's a potential for that to change, but I know it sufficiently unlikely as to be statistically insignificant; as much as it is humanly possible to be sure. I can't see any definition going beyond this reasonable level since nobody would be able to meet the standard it would require.

Plus if someone says that people who opt against bottom surgery are not transsexual, then what would that mean for the FTM transsexuals?

Quote from: Fencesitter on August 15, 2010, 03:33:02 AM
Plus if someone says that people who opt against bottom surgery are not transsexual, then what would that mean for the FTM transsexuals?

bottom surgery for FtMs is such a major crapshoot that it is understandable that not many choose to go for it...and as that means most FtMs will never get a functioning penis then it is perfectly acceptable to retain and use the vagina.
However I just can't accept the idea of non-op MtFs as keeping a penis let alone using it is so male and the surgery to replace it is affordable and quite successful so there really isn't much reason to choose to be non-op...except that the person isn't really TS.
The other side of my coin is that thanks to inexpensive surgery and p.c medics there are a lot of people losing penisses and getting vaginas who are definitely not TS.

QuoteThe other side of my coin is that thanks to inexpensive surgery and p.c medics there are a lot of people losing penisses and getting vaginas who are definitely not TS.

What is the criteria you use to determine who is and who is not TS?

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 15, 2010, 06:40:59 AM
bottom surgery for FtMs is such a major crapshoot that it is understandable that not many choose to go for it...and as that means most FtMs will never get a functioning penis then it is perfectly acceptable to retain and use the vagina.

Well there's also the less extreme surgery of just getting a dlitpen, leaving the hole as it is, not urethral lengthening and maybe getting rid of the female labia plus, if you want, silicone testicle implants in the outer labia. Or even more minor surgeries (loosening the testoclit so it's more at the front, which is a small cut through a fiber and a few stitches, plus getting rid of the inner labia so the whole thing looks a bit less female - it's no worse an operation than a male circumcision, local anesthesia and you can go home immediately after that).

These solutions give you "only" ambiguous genitalia but are less risky as far as I know than the typical MTF operation with neovagina etc., and especially the minor version I mentioned is really no big deal. Of course, you cannot make intercourse with the clitpen, but I'm not sure your argument is completely valid as there's other things you can do with the little guy. 

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 15, 2010, 06:40:59 AMHowever I just can't accept the idea of non-op MtFs as keeping a penis let alone using it is so male and the surgery to replace it is affordable and quite successful so there really isn't much reason to choose to be non-op...except that the person isn't really TS.

Being transsexual is a constant mind->-bleeped-<- and gets you very skilled at coping with the dysphoria  over the decades by using mental tricks, as you have to deal with it all the time before transition. Some transsexuals might be able to trick their mind so well that they get along with whatever genitalia they were born with. (I do that.) Plus for some of us, the social transition is much more important than the physical transition so... well. And by the way, my ex (cis) girlfriend liked to fool around with strap-ons, so what does that tell us? I think there's different kinds of being transsexual, not just one strict version with very clear detailed "symptoms" equal for everyone.

There are many paths for trans people, choosing non-op is equally legitimate as choosing surgeries or other medical options. Please respect each persons' choices as being right for them!

Z

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 15, 2010, 06:40:59 AM
bottom surgery for FtMs is such a major crapshoot that it is understandable that not many choose to go for it...and as that means most FtMs will never get a functioning penis then it is perfectly acceptable to retain and use the vagina.
However I just can't accept the idea of non-op MtFs as keeping a penis let alone using it is so male and the surgery to replace it is affordable and quite successful so there really isn't much reason to choose to be non-op...except that the person isn't really TS.
The other side of my coin is that thanks to inexpensive surgery and p.c medics there are a lot of people losing penisses and getting vaginas who are definitely not TS.

It is strange, but for some reason this post struck me as misogynist... I cannot quite place my finger on it.  Perhaps it struck me funny, but it seems to point out that penis = man = superior.  Almost like saying, "Men wouldn't accept poor quality penises; and only a man would be proud enough of his to keep it after he has transitioned to female."

Oh well, that's just my tiny speculation - more seriously, I don't take offense at your post lilac but I have a very hard time understanding it.  To my knowledge there is little to no medical diagnostic that can determine transsexuality - it is only by self evaluation currently.  The closest we have to criteria is in the DSM describing GID.  No where does it say one must have/desire surgery (if that surgery can be successful and not a "major crapshoot") to be transsexual.

Despite all that, the BIGGEST problem I have with your diagnosis is that back when I transitioned, the ideas you presented ABOUNDED!  Even the damned medical professionals were all in on the game.  TS equaled surgery - period.  This meant a lot of people made some very poor decisions for themselves - getting SRS.  Why?  Because they felt they had to or were otherwise told it was necessary, or were socially ostracized by their ONLY peer group (other TS's) if they didn't feel they wanted it.  It means lying to therapists to get letters and not getting the real treatment they needed because everyone colored everything GID related into two varieties: surgery-bound or pervert.  You didn't want to be a pervert, so surgery-bound was the next best option.  Those people were responsible for their own decision and they are paying for them now - but many of them could have been saved the experience had more tolerance existed for those whose GID didn't sent them running for a knife.

Thank you Interalia

     I must confess to taking actual offense at Lilacwomans' statement.  I see absolutely no difference between her statement and the semi-sane ramblings of the "holier-than-thou" right-wing Christians shilling for The Big Baptist Business Church who I see so frequently here in the south.  Lilacwoman shall determine on her own terms who shall be allowed to tread upon the inner sanctum and receive the title of Transsexual.  Boy, isn't that exactly what the Wednesday woman's bible study group does?  Perhaps, like them, you have not developed that emotion called empathy, wherein you have the ability to put yourself into the situation or mindset of another. 
     Fortunately, I am pretty tough and care not a whit what she thinks.  I do care that someone young and impressionable will make some choice based on Lilacwomans bias, rather than her own true feelings and nature.  I agree with phoenix that it is like cancer, and perhaps needs the least of attention and  surgical measures that will cure the problem.  Between 18 and 30, I was most desirous of the surgery.  I could neither afford it, nor was it particularly available.  I found that, for me, as I became moderately successful and had choices, that the burning desire for surgery left me.  I still have that passion for  transition.
     I have a penis, sure.  But IT PRETTY MUCH DOESN'T WORK!  Most girls, like me, on hormones and anti-hormones etc. rarely get an erection.  Out of sight, out of mind.  The beast is dead.  I am able to fully satisfy my wife, as I did for previous boyfriends, with exactly what I have now; a mouth, hands, and a very active imagination.  Occasionally, with extreme effort, I get a dry orgasm totally different from any male orgasm.  A sharing with another rather than a conquest. That works for us, and we are happy.  I apologize if this has been graphic or if it seems to be in any form an attack.  I am merely defending myself from the heinous charge of "transsexual blasphemy" hurled by someone who obviously doesn't consider me "worthy" as a sister. 

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 15, 2010, 06:40:59 AM
it is affordable

No, it isn't.  It's only seen as so by those with certain economic/financial privilege.  For some it is financially unobtainable.

I see absolutely no difference between her statement and the semi-sane ramblings of the "holier-than-thou" right-wing Christians shilling for The Big Baptist Business Church who I see so frequently here in the south. 

Wow, someone who agrees with me.

As for the money, work harder.  Money is easy if you give up everything else.

Quote from: Laura91 on August 15, 2010, 07:22:43 PM
Indeed. If someone thinks that anything that is thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars is "affordable" they need to take a refresher course on economics.

Its only unobtainable because people put there own barriers in the way.  Anyone that wants success has to go for it and take it not expect it to be given to them, and not quit just because it gets hard.  My parents had literally nothing when they came to the US, my dad only had his education which he used to support his family and he worked damn hard to get what he has, two houses (one vacation home) and a comfortable retirement.  It took him 30 years but he did it, and anyone else can, if you think a few thousand dollars is unobtainable, you have already failed before you even started.  I was a loser too with no money till i did something about it and tried to get my life on track... if you have seen my before and after pictures you will see, and now a few thousand is not really much either, when it would have been impossible for me before, all i did was care about my life and try and not quit when things got hard.  try it, you might get amazed at the results.

Also bill gates had nothing, started microsoft in his garage now look at him... dont sell yourself short~

well I have to say that my own transition here in the UK with a supposedly free healthservice has cost me in excess of $15,000 over the last 2.5 years which considering our cost of living like petrol and deisel have been $7 a gallon for a few years now must mean that anyone in USA ought to be able to find that amount in a short space of time with your high wages, service economy, climate, and low cost of living.
Basically I just don't get the idea of a transitioned Mtf choosing to keep a penis and use it as sticking it in and humping is such a male thing.

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 18, 2010, 04:41:28 PM
Basically I just don't get the idea of a transitioned Mtf choosing to keep a penis and use it as sticking it in and humping is such a male thing.

You know, I think we often make a mistake of thinking everyone else is just like us. For you it is an abhorant idea. For me I was fine with it. I really enjoyed sex with my penis, intercourse was just one aspect of that. If all you do is stick it in and hump then that sounds like a lack of imagination. If you trust someone and love them, and have that emotional connection, some things don't matter so much. I did not feel like a guy using it, I was just me, enjoying the feelings, and what it gave to my partner. Just cause you have some male equipment does not automatically make the act itself a male expression. I loved the intimacy, the feel of my partner moving against me, becoming one connected being. I could look down and imagine it was her penetrating me at the same time. And on top of that it felt great! Oh no, I was such a man...complete rubish.

Not that I use it now, and it is a relief to be freed of that need. But there are other considerations, like if you have a partner that really loves intercourse, you might do it for them rather than yourself, even if you don't particulalry like it. There is nothing wrong with doing something to satisfy your partner. As long as you feel ok about it. Women and men have being doing that since the beginning of time. Consider too that lots of lesbian and non-lesbian couples use strapons. Does that make them less as woman? Not at all. Are they having sex in a male way? No, not at all.

So we come in all shapes a sizes. Some of us just are not as traumatised in having a penis as you were Lilac. It is not a reflection on your femininity or how much of a woman you are. It is just the way you are.

Having a penis or not does not define us as men or woman. That is such a limited point of view. We are so much more than our genitalia. I could just as easily say because you think that non-ops are not ts means you can't be a ts either because you lack womanly empathy. That is ridiculous too.

Just accept it lilac, don't be so inflexible. It does not hurt you to accept that other people are different from you, it does not any way affect your identity as a woman, it does not make you more of a woman believing what you do. A non-ops desire to be the person they are is just as strong as yours.

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 18, 2010, 04:41:28 PM
Basically I just don't get the idea of a transitioned Mtf choosing to keep a penis and use it as sticking it in and humping is such a male thing.

Oh my ex occasionally borrowed my strap-on to hump me and she loved it. She was a femme lesbian and not transgendered in any way. Go tell her that there was something wrong with that. Or tell me as I liked it too.

"that lilacwoman can only see that vision in her head"  Maybe she should have saved her money and kept her thingy, considering how much she likes to poke people and how obsessed she is with making a point.

That is going to get me in trouble.

Quote from: Cindy Stephens on August 18, 2010, 06:47:28 PMI find it interesting that  after being informed that many of us do not use our penis's in the humping manner, that lilacwoman can only see that vision in her head, and brag about how much she has spent on transition while rubbing it in to her American cousins that her medical is free.  Could she try any harder to insult and denigrate non-ops without even the hint of attempting to actually understand what the other attitude is?

Cindy, from seeing other posts on the board from her like this one:

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 20, 2010, 01:40:42 AM

Quote from: kyrilAnd skip all the fancy, lacy styles in favour of seamless satins, soft synthetics and cotton stretch knits. The uneven fabrics like lace, especially lace trim, can rub, dig in and chafe.

that's man talk...
bras are fun and confirmation of increasing femininity so I go for lacy, pretty colours

it's pretty clear she's got some GID emotional baggage regarding gender to deal with that she is ignoring.   Using lace to confirm her own femininity?   Shouldn't our femininity come from who we are, not what clothes we wear?  I'm not challenging her sense of being female, but more pointing out how this comments could indicate her self-esteem in this area isn't strong yet and it's causing things like these posts.   Until she clears her own head, trying to rationally explain our positions won't ever let her see how we're all transsexual.

Quote from: pheonix on August 20, 2010, 05:46:38 AM
Cindy, from seeing other posts on the board from her like this one:

that's man talk...
bras are fun and confirmation of increasing femininity so I go for lacy, pretty colours


it's pretty clear she's got some GID emotional baggage regarding gender to deal with that she is ignoring.   Using lace to confirm her own femininity?   Shouldn't our femininity come from who we are, not what clothes we wear?  I'm not challenging her sense of being female, but more pointing out how this comments could indicate her self-esteem in this area isn't strong yet and it's causing things like these posts.   Until she clears her own head, trying to rationally explain our positions won't ever let her see how we're all transsexual.

pheonix,

this is getting too personal.

First, we should be discussing the topic here, not the people who post. Even if they post things we strongly disagree with, may hurt us or they have become personal in the discussion themselves. Saying STOP or deescalating is better than bitching back if you don't want the thread to be closed - and this thread is much too interesting and important to get killed.

Second, though it's off topic in this thread, I know a couple of GG who wear lacy etc. bras for exactly the same reasons as lilacwoman, so I don't get your point here anyway. But I don't want to get into this topic any further as it would be discussing about a person, not about her opinions.

I feel it is on topic.  If I were to go into the the SRS thread and were to post something like:

Quote from: fakeposterThe fixation of come people to cosmetically add the exterior appearance of a vagina is transvestic fetishism at its worst, and proves Blanchard right!.  Proof of the cosmetic nature arises by the fact that without intervention the surgical mangina will heal itself closed.

I would be bounced from this forum quicker that you can post.

I don't, by the way, believe that opinion, but it is the equivalent of what lilac and others have posted here.  They get told we need to be more accepting and no repercussions for them despite returning over and over to our thread.

This thread is not about why you should be op... nor is it about discouraging non-op.

It is about letting the voice of non-ops -- those of us who aren't intending to have GRS, to explain why... to educate and maybe show folks on the fence there are other options besides what the majority espouse as gospel.

I can't transition because I can't afford it and I don't have insurance. I cope by dressing as a guy and just being myself as much as possible. My family and friends I haven't came out to yet views me as tom boy which is fine for now. I'm pretty much ok with myself for the most part but I do have my days when I have feelings of self hatered and some other things. I do dress as a girl time to time as a way to keep my family off my back from dressing like a guy most of the time. As for more intimate things I tell my partner what I will allow and my limits. Sadly concerning that part one guy disrespected that and talked me into some stuff and he is the guy I plan to divorce. But yea I just try to be who I really am as much as possible.

 :D :D :D  No more posts from me on Non-ops.

Quote from: CindyJames on April 03, 2009, 02:36:47 AM
Similar to Janet, but also I have an enormous commitment to my disabled wife. She accepts me and love me but would have problems with me being female 27/7/365.
It also costs a fortune for her therapy and care, and I cannot afford to lose my job.

How do I cope. I don't. I just don't have a choice.
How do I cope? This place helps a lot. I'm also in a TG club and they are very supportive. My family knows and accepts me.

Yea
Cindy James

@ Cindy James:

Honey, like God, I had no idea!

I'm so sorry to hear that.  That is SO righteous of you to rise to the call of duty and devotion and put her welfare ahead of your own.  I majorly respect that ... MAJORLY!  Look, if you ever need to talk, PM me, okay?  Your choice. 

Wish I could help.    :embarrassed:

So why not and how does one cope.

I will not transition because for better or worse this is my body.  My personal beliefs lead me to believe I will come out of my life stronger by coming to harmony with my body and mind and if I can do this with surgical alterations so much the better.  It's not that I look negatively on GRS, SRS or anyone who chooses to take the route, that in itself requires a kind of strength I can't imagine.  This is about what I believe is the path made for me, or the path I've chosen depending on how I choose to look at it on a given day.

I cope by obsessively focusing on things I do have control over in my life.  It makes me look like a work-a-holic and people tell me I expect too much from myself, but if I'm not always looking to self-improve I can only fall back into habits self-destruction.  It's honestly not the healthiest coping mechanism, but without much in the way of support or understanding honestly it's all I've got to keep going.

Why not? - I don't fully identify as either gender, so I don't see how fully transitioning would benefit me. I like my boy self just as much as my girl self so it's liberating to me to be able to be either at any given point.

How do I cope? - I came out to my friends and told people of how I felt about myself and they all accepted it.

Quote from: Mister on April 10, 2009, 02:22:06 PM
I see your point, Tekla, but living with GID in a world where there are no options must be vastly different than living with it in one with options known to you, especially when they are inaccessible.  How'd they used to do it?  They didn't know there was any other way.

That's how I managed. I didn't know there was GID and didn't know there was any option but to just make the best of what was possible.

I had two choices. 1 Exist trying to fit in or 2 have a really good life. I tried option 1 and felt that life wasn't worth living that way. I then took option 2 doing what made me feel good and dismissing what anyone else said or thought. They had their opinion and I had mine and I was going with mine.

I built my world on being fit and active and exploring by trying new things and enjoying the things that I loved doing whether they fitted in with expectations for a female or not. I worked in male dominated jobs, did male dominated sports and had a fairly androgynous wardrobe. I was happy with my performance for my body's capacity.  It wasn't as good body as I'd have liked, I'd have like a more masculine one, I knew that much, but it was all I had to work with.

It worked for me until I started having so much pain and stiff joints that some days I could barely walk never mind work. My Option 2 failed wherever it relied on my body being up to what I needed of it to do to express my maleness. That's not a good time to find out that GID exists and applies to you and that option 3 isn't an option that you can take for whatever reason/s.

What to do....well I don't know what anyone else can do and I wouldn't deign to tell anyone what's best for them, they aren't me. but for me I think I'll have to just be myself, accept that the boundaries are different now, do what suits me, do what makes me feel good, and not care at all what anyone else who doesn't matter to me thinks or says. Nearest fit label is I'm a somewhat androgynous gay trans man with a rather crappy unconventional body.

@ Theo:

Sounds like you're doing the best you can with the circumstances you've got, man.  Gotta admire that a lot.  Hope it all works our for you, really. 

Quote from: Lacey Lynne on October 17, 2010, 10:02:13 PM
@ Theo:

Sounds like you're doing the best you can with the circumstances you've got, man.  Gotta admire that a lot.  Hope it all works our for you, really.

@ Lacey Lynne;

Thanks, the world is made a better place with caring girls like yourself in it.

Quote from: Jill on April 02, 2009, 09:11:22 PM
If you are in this forum, chances are you are a non-op transperson.   So, 1) why not, and 2) how do you cope?

When I was young little was known about transgendered people. I knew I was different but not the cause etc. So I got married, had a family.
Much later when I realised what I was, I made a decision and decided the family came first. It was a struggle at times but we had a happy marriage for nearly 50 years. Its now too late for SRS, but HRT and dress is not

Quote from: Theo on October 18, 2010, 03:36:19 AM
@ Lacey Lynne;

Thanks, the world is made a better place with caring girls like yourself in it.

Thanks so much, man.  Appreciate your compliment.

Know what?  I actually DO care ... and very deeply.  I literally "suffer in my soul" (Yeah, I know that sounds stupid, but it's the best I can think of right now.) for transguys.  The day WILL come when you guys can get your surgery, have fully functioning equipment that is so genuine that only a doctor would know the difference.  That time IS coming; however, it is rather a bit in the future. 

Look, I'm about to say something here, and some people will be put off by it?  Why?  Frankly, because they'll think it's B.S.  Well, they'll just have to deal with it, so here goes:

Science and technology exists that is way, way beyond what we see, have and experience in the general society.  Yes, lots of this sci/tech IS classified and used by the leading nations for "national security" and military purposes.  This is not the knowledge I'm talking about here.  There is knowledge that is ages old ... been around since very great antiquity ... even predated this earth. 

Back in my high school and college days, I was studying to become a theoretical physicist.  Did really well in school.  Got into the top fancy-pants college (Hell, they even gave me a scholarship to go, so WTF?  I went!), was personally tutored by the top theoretical astrophysicist in the world (He finally won The Nobel Prize for Physics 10 years after I studied with him ... Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar (Chandra to his friends)).  My point?  Physics, math and their underlying ground rules and assumptions were my passion.

Over many years, I discovered the existence of this knowledge I'm talking about here.  Do I actually have this knowledge?  No.  Do I know about it?  I believe I do.  What I'm trying to say is the possibility of doing female-to-male bottom surgery is entirely and altogether more feasible ... TODAY ... than we believe possible and are allowed to know about. 

I believe they have the cure for the common cold.  I believe they have cures for various cancers.  I believe HIV/AIDS was created in government/military laboratories as an engine of genocide against undesired populations (I could go on and on about this one).  You get my drift.  The knowledge is THERE and is there NOW in so many ways and for so many things.  Too many obscenely rich people are making too much money keeping things just the way they are.  Even more profoundly, withholding this knowledge is about power, clout and control.   

Presidents, kings and queens, prime ministers, etc., rule the world?  IMHO, no way.  The real rulers are generally unknown to and unseen by the general populace.  They use this advanced knowledge (or withhold it) to keep themselves in power.  Indeed, some researchers into these matters maintain that the people who truly rule the world have extraterrestrial intervention and assistance in so doing.  I am apt to agree with these researchers, as far-out as this assertion may be at first blush.  So, what's my whole point?

Transguys, your doable and excellent bottom surgery is more than likley much more doable and doable sooner than you may ever believe.  There is a nexus at which Newtonian mechanics, special and general relativity, quantum physics, the zero-point field and metaphysics converge.  This knowledge is ages old.  Some believe that it originated off of this planet ... even out of this solar system or galaxy even.  I am inclined to agree with them. 

Transguys, I personally believe the ability to do your surgery may even be a reality now.  I emphasize MAY be.  I don't know for sure.  Human potential is vastly greater than we are led to believe it is.  If the people who really run the world had a good reason (TO THEM!) to proceed with the medical research to perfect FTM bottom surgery, I believe it would be available well within the lifetimes of you younger transdudes.

Loopey Lacey spacing out again?  No, Lacey spent most of her younger life deeply studying these things.  While other young people were out dating, mating and relating, I was embroiled in passionate albeit solitary research to seek these things out. 

Go to Google or Bing and search for and read about:

*   The Zero-Point Field, and
*   Quantum Consciousness. 

Then, check 'em out on YouTube.  Finally, search for titles about these at www.Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com) ...

Prepare to be amazed.  Alas, alack and anon, this is only the beginning.  It goes way deeper!

Transdudes, I deeply care about your plight.  I plan to dedicate what remains of my life to helping the LGBTQ Community become understood, cared about and helped.  Don't know that I can do much, but I fully intend to give it my all.  Will I fail?  Maybe.  Won't be for lack of trying though.    ;)

Hint:

What drives energy/matter (different states of the SAME thing)?    Thought!

The Zero-Point Field is the medium.  Thought is the message.  Quantum consciousness is their nexus.

Humans (to a limited but amazing degree) have the ability to affect creation.  Think about that!!!

Sigh, nobody likes nerd girls.    ::)   Nerd out, dudes!     :D

Why I'm non op:
-I worry that if I did go through with it, I would have major regrets.
-I haven't come out to my mom yet, so I have been avoiding going to a therapist (even though I bet it would help) because I am terrified of her finding out.
-My boyfriend accepts me as a man, and would even if I got the surgery, but because he is so understanding either way, I don't feel like I should just yet.
-If I end up wanting biological kids through child birth, I'm kind of screwed if I get the surgery.
-Although I know deep in my heart that I'm a man, even though I wasn't born as one, I keep hoping that one day it'll go away so I can feel normal. I do not feel normal. I know I am who I am, and I've spent enough time ignoring it, but still.

How I cope:
-I dress in a way that makes me feel like I'm handsome, and masculine (enough, I'm a bit effeminate. :D).
-I write, a lot.
-I've joined this group and another online so I never feel like I'm alone in these thoughts and concerns.
-I joined an LGBTQA club at my college, and although I'm the only trans person there, it's an amazing place.
-I remind myself that my friends and family who know adore me for all that I am, and that I have someone as supportive as my boyfriend there to make me feel great.

Hm, you ask why? Really, I cannot see myself in the realm of either gender. Sure, I may adopt secondary feminine traits physically and mentally, but I do not believe I belong in that realm completely. On the contrary, I know I do not consider myself a part of the male world either. With time and more thought, I may switch to being a pre-op and eventually go through with it. However as I stand today I am more comfortable being an 'Andro' than male or female.

How do I cope? This really doesn't cause an enormous amount of stress for me. The stressful times are if in class, people ask questions or say crude remarks. Being told, "What, you just gonna walk away like a efing girl? what the F man?" brings some anger to the table, but it mainly brings sorrow. Sorrow for those poor souls who are slaves to the social norms and their hormones. I give them all a moment of silence each day and hope they wake up.

Dear marissak,
I understand completely and hope you work out what is best for you.  I was very lucky to find (after several divorces and long term gay relationships) a woman who really preferred my female side, and hates it when my aggressive male side comes out occasionally.  Hormones have contained and shrunk the "beast".  Sex is rare and more like a couple of girls.  Works for us, it is possible.  One thing though, about men.  They are ALL "fetishists" of one stripe or another.  Some require; youth, big butts, big breasts, submissive, strong, fat, skinny, blonds, redheads, etc.etc.  Any relationship built only on that one sexual turn-on is doomed to failure I think.  However, there seems to be a current among some ts people that men who like women with a little extra are somehow "perverts".  That they believe and say this doesn't make it so.  You may find a guy (your post seemed at least bi) who certainly is drawn to you for what you have and is willing to love, cherish, support, understand and give his all to keep you.  That doesn't seem so bad to me.  Certainly many women have learned to play into their lovers/husbands fantasies at least sometimes to keep the sex hot, and interest alive.  Why do you think they buy that lacy scratchy lingerie when they would rather be wearing a flannel floor-length nightgown?  Now, I am from a different generation, and perhaps my thinking is different, but l believe that compromise requires understanding the needs of our lovers just as much as we need them to understand us.  Perhaps, if you do intend to keep the beast, think of ->-bleeped-<-s as potential mates with certain characteristics, rather than "perverts", and I bet the dates will go a whole lot smoother.  Like most women, we need to kiss a lot of toads before we find anything approaching a prince.

Why no hormones/no surgery?

-I went nutty as a Christmas fruitcake on birth control...rolling dice on testosterone? maybe not a good idea.
-It would be really hard to stick me at the correct balance point between male and female
-If I get too androgynous-looking, it will interfere with my ability to get and keep a job
-I do NOT want to lose any head hair or grow any more body hair (although oddly enough, I do wish I could wear a goatee..)
-Growing the perfect micropenis? not easy
-I can't legally transition to androgyne (I'm actually really angry about this...my gender doesn't legally exist!)
-My gender dysphoria seems to be covered well enough by wearing men's clothing and getting a female's short haircut, at the moment... I feel at my best when I neither feel demasculinized nor defeminized.
-two words: small boobs

I am inclined to genderqueer, though, when I can dress and behave how I like.

Two main reasons. I live in a good society and masculine women are not discriminated (at least I never was). I never suffered of being seen as a lower being and I'm allowed to do as many "male" stuff as I want. My sex is blocking me only in relationships because my "requirements" in partners are pretty specific and difficult to get, but at the same time I was never into marriage, babies or even partnership. So I'm guessing that sex change wouldn't improve my life very much.

And then other hundreds of reasons I'm reciting to myself every time I have weak moments.

Well, to be perfectly honest I don't feel I need surgery. I also have a fundamental personal belief that surgery on MY otherwise healthy body is just not for me. I also have come to the personal belief (notice I'm qualifying all of this as my PERSONAL beliefs because I don't want it to sound like I'm pushing my beliefs onto anyone else) that there is no such thing as GID. It's a made up disorder created by psychologists to put otherwise normal people, like myself, into a box. I honestly believe that having the mind of one gender and the body of another is a totally normal human variation and also that there isn't just 2 genders ... and that's also normal. 

How I cope? Well, like someone else said, I'm out to find my own personal harmony with what I got. I've gained confidence about who I am on the inside.

Quote from: Susan on April 03, 2009, 02:51:31 AMIf the only reason you have not had GRS surgery is the cost, then you would be pre-op not non-op...

Thanks for the clarification, but I can't find the pre-op sub.

Am I overlooking something?

~ Lilis

Quote from: Lilis on February 22, 2025, 09:58:23 AMThanks for the clarification, but I can't find the pre-op sub.

Am I overlooking something?

~ Lilis

Maybe this helps?  It is titled non-op though.

https://www.susans.org/index.php/board,315.0.html

Quote from: Just Kate on April 03, 2009, 11:58:22 AMRereading Susan's statement, I guess you are right.  I was assuming 'non-op' referred more to people who are not transitioning than those who just aren't having the surgery.

Yeah, same, I am trying to grasp this as well.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on February 22, 2025, 10:08:34 AMMaybe this helps?  It is titled non-op though.

https://www.susans.org/index.php/board,315.0.html

Right, but Susan statement suggests that they are not the same thing, and are different transitioning goals.

Quote from: cindybc on April 04, 2009, 01:15:18 AMBut if I got this correctly, non-op means no plans for SRS for health reasons and what ever other reason's this person may have, "period!"
If SRS is out, one can always take the alternative of orchiectomy, a less major surgery

Pre-op means wanting and planning on having SRS no matter how long it takes to have the money or find the means to have the surgery. Some even sell their bodies on the street for the money for SRS.

Post-op means after surgery.Cindy

Exactly, these are my thoughts as well.

Wait... not the selling their bodies part, but yeah mostly of what you said.

And I don't see a pre-op sub.

Quote from: Lilis on February 22, 2025, 10:15:12 AMRight, but Susan statement suggests that they are not the same thing, and are different transitioning goals.

I can understand that.  Maybe you can find what you want in the general GCS theead?

https://www.susans.org/index.php/board,50.0.html

If I find another location I will let you know.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on February 22, 2025, 10:39:57 AMI can understand that.  Maybe you can find what you want in the general GCS theead?

https://www.susans.org/index.php/board,50.0.html

If I find another location I will let you know.

Thanks Chrissy. 💓

Pre-op discussions would fall under the specific FtM or MtF thread here in the Transexual Talk forums.

As you correctly surmised, the Non-Op is for those who have no intention of getting surgery.
Post-Op Life is for those who have already had transition surgery.

Under the Forum Transgender Talk is for transitioning of any type, including surgery, with its own sub-forum for Non-transitioning or De-transitioning discussions.

I hope this helps.

@Lilis  @ChrissyRyan 

Lori Dee's reply to your questions are exactly correct:

      YES... Here on the Transsexual Talk sub-forum board:
    https://www.susans.org/index.php/board,28.0.html

              Female to male transsexual talk (FTM)
          https://www.susans.org/index.php/board,27.0.html
A place for male identified trans people to talk about issues they face in their daily lives.
  Sub-Boards: Testosterone    FTM Top Surgery    FTM Bottom Surgery FTM Gear

              Male to female transsexual talk (MTF)
          https://www.susans.org/index.php/board,51.0.html
A place for female identified trans people to talk about issues they face in their daily lives.
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Thank you both for your inquiry and your efforts in posting on the correct Forum board.
Very much appreciated.  Always feel free to ask questions. 
Our moderation team is most happy to assist.

HUGS, Danielle [Northern Star Girl]
The Forum Admin
                  cc:  @Devlyn  @Jessica_Rose  @Mariah  @Lori Dee  @Sarah B

Quote from: Lori Dee on February 22, 2025, 11:04:11 AMPre-op discussions would fall under the specific FtM or MtF thread here in the Transexual Talk forums.

As you correctly surmised, the Non-Op is for those who have no intention of getting surgery.
Post-Op Life is for those who have already had transition surgery.

Under the Forum Transgender Talk is for transitioning of any type, including surgery, with its own sub-forum for Non-transitioning or De-transitioning discussions.

I hope this helps.

Quote from: Northern Star Girl on February 22, 2025, 02:04:32 PM @Lilis  @ChrissyRyan 

Lori Dee's reply to your questions are exactly correct:

      YES... Here on the Transsexual Talk sub-forum board:
    https://www.susans.org/index.php/board,28.0.html

              Female to male transsexual talk (FTM)
          https://www.susans.org/index.php/board,27.0.html
A place for male identified trans people to talk about issues they face in their daily lives.
  Sub-Boards: Testosterone    FTM Top Surgery    FTM Bottom Surgery FTM Gear

              Male to female transsexual talk (MTF)
          https://www.susans.org/index.php/board,51.0.html
A place for female identified trans people to talk about issues they face in their daily lives.
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Thank you both for your inquiry and your efforts in posting on the correct Forum board.
Very much appreciated.  Always feel free to ask questions. 
Our moderation team is most happy to assist.

HUGS, Danielle [Northern Star Girl]
The Forum Admin
                  cc:  @Devlyn  @Jessica_Rose  @Mariah  @Lori Dee  @Sarah B

Thank you everyone! 🫂💓🌹

This whole thing is a minefield. I am non-op but also wanting to be pre-op, but never likely to fall into that category. People do things for different reasons. And sometimes you can't have a category which fits someone exactly. Most of which we can't begin to understand, because we're not them, and everyone is unique. The site tries its best to cater for everyone, but I doubt that's honestly possible. You can only identify with the things you most closely identify with. And don't let the rest bother you.

Quote from: Sephirah on February 22, 2025, 02:55:45 PMI am non-op but also wanting to be pre-op

Non-op means no desire for surgery.
Pre-op means wants to have surgery, whether it happens or not doesn't matter. As you said, some people want it but can't for various reasons.

Quote from: Lori Dee on February 22, 2025, 02:58:10 PMNon-op means no desire for surgery.
Pre-op means wants to have surgery, whether it happens or not doesn't matter. As you said, some people want it but can't for various reasons.

See that's kind of the mix up. I physically can't have surgery. I am non-op because I literally can't have surgery. And pre-op is giving me a hope I can't have. Doesn't mean I don't want it. Just that it's a physical impossibility. I can't say I am pre-op because I cannot ever see a time where being post op will ever be a thing. So I have to be realistic.

As I say, it's a minefield, lol.

Just be you, and let everything else sort itself out. :)

I may end up being preOP forever, and then I suppose I should have been classified as NonOp.  I suppose it depends on my whatever my current desire for the surgery is.

In the meantime I am not letting either classification label influence me in any way!


Chrissy

Quote from: Sephirah on February 22, 2025, 03:02:34 PMSee that's kind of the mix up.

As I say, it's a minefield, lol.

Just be you, and let everything else sort itself out. :)

Exactly this. I'll try to wrap my head around it another time. 🤯