Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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Got me thinking about a question I've had for some time.  There is a lot of great discussion in the other thread, so rather than detract from it, I decided to make a new topic.

The question is, before there was SRS, how did people cope with their GID?  Is there any evidence of such people and their choices?  I mean, all I have is speculation from looking at people in history and their 'bizarre' behavior, but perhaps one of you knows more.

More important question then - does knowledge of a 'cure' make not having the 'cure' worse?  Meaning, does knowing that the option to transition and have SRS exist make it worse for those with GID who do not have it?

I don't know if it makes it worse since i've always known that there is a "cure", but i know that it is pretty bad knowing that I can't get that "cure" at this point.

Quote from: interalia on April 11, 2009, 11:47:01 AM
More important question then - does knowledge of a 'cure' make not having the 'cure' worse?  Meaning, does knowing that the option to transition and have SRS exist make it worse for those with GID who do not have it?

So long as the individual can make the choice... No

before SRS, there were eunuchs. I really don't know how transmen dealt with it. i guess those lucky enough to pass for men did so. and likewise for the women.

I think before SRS people mostly lived without the conception that SRS was possible, and so the associated disphoria was lesser -- it's more painful if you know it's possible to do something about it.

Along with that, plenty simply did their best to live as the gender they identified with, without hormones or SRS or FFS, just as many still do across the world.

In many cultures there was ways of dealing with it.

In some the ftm's adopted a male lifestyle and role. This gave them full rights as a man in ownership of land and things. I don't think they were allowed to marry or anything though. There was a male Civil War (I could be wrong which war) doctor that was found to me ftm as well.

In the case of mtf's, as mentioned eunuchs. There were some voluntary ones, there still are today. The Hidjra (sp?) of India is a perfect example of what people did and do.

People have always found ways.

Most ancient cultures recognised multiple genders, even Judaism. Most didn't understand transsexual people as such "boy in a girl's body" or vice versa, but saw gender-variant people as distinct third/fourth/fifth ... etc. genders. It's only more recently, with the rise and conquest of, well the world really, by Christianity and Islam that that's changed, and strict binarism reared its ugly head.

From what I've read, most cultures recognised gender-variant kids quite young, and castration was usually part of how they dealt with it. I also read somewhere that they would make use of high phyto-estrogenic herbs and plants to achieve some measure of feminisation, though I can't remember where and so can't provide a citation. For FtM's, I don't really know. I've read of a few female bodied people that lived as men by binding their chests and simply presenting well, but I don't think there were any physical interventions available to them.

For more information:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender -- Third Gender at Wikipedia
gallae.com/cathy/essay20.html -- The Gallae of Rome
jewishmosaic.org/torah/show_torah/139 -- Gender variance in Judaism
well.com/user/aquarius/index.htm -- "Born Eunuchs" - talks mostly about homosexuality in the Bible, but also touches on transgender people
galva108.org/thirdgender.html -- Third Sex, Third Gender: Beyond Dimorphism (review of the book)

These are the articles I could find again. Will try to see if I can track down some of the others I've read.

Mina.





Links disabled to comport with Rule 1 of the TOS -- Nichole

Even in ancient greece where women were practically the man's property. Were not allowed to go see the olympic games or anything. There were still a few women who were "philosophers" and were considered to be "almost" men.

Thanks for the links Mina!

Z

Quote from: interalia on April 11, 2009, 11:47:01 AM
More important question then - does knowledge of a 'cure' make not having the 'cure' worse?  Meaning, does knowing that the option to transition and have SRS exist make it worse for those with GID who do not have it?

I think that not being able to find a solution to a problem you are having is very frustrating. Once you find there is a way to solve the problem there is some relief in knowing that the problem can be fixed but, it also leaves the person impatient and stressed if the solution is delayed.

I don't think it's helped by an ADD culture that places such an emphasis quick easy solutions that have to happen right now!  I think that far too many people are looking for a magic bullet solution to a laundry list of problems, and that causes a lot more problems than it solves.

Native American nations revered the two spirited person.  They often became that nation's shaman.  Even today some nations still revere the two spirited person.

As for the white man's (not a slam, just to differentiate from the Native American) world, I imagine that many committed suicide. lived as the strange one down the street, or enter some underground cult.  Many FtMs live happily as men for years, as for MtFs I don't know.

As for me, I sincerely wish to have SRS.  And there is no 'cure' for GID.  The only thing is to transition, or live with it.  I 'lived' with it for years, and after three suicide attempts I found that 'just living with it' is a road filled with pain and misery.

I know of your choice, Interalia, and I can only wish you the best of luck.  I hope your life is everything you want it to be.

Blessed Be,
Janet

Quote from: Zythyra on April 11, 2009, 04:29:29 PMThanks for the links Mina

My pleasure Z. :)

Many MtF people found themselves working in brothels.  Believe it or not, >-bleeped-<s arn't a new thing.

Read Jean Genet or Quentin Crisp to see the ways people coped

I'm gonna have to go with a big fat yes for the topic question.

Until about a year ago I totally didn't understand the trans community, the only ones I'd been exposed to were in porn, and I honestly thought they were just men with fake boobs. I didn't know they actually identified as women. I knew nothing of hormones and what have you. I had no idea FTM's existed at all.

I always sorta wished I was a boy, but I never really thought anything of it, I just got on with life. Then I read an article in bizarre magazine about Buck Angel and a few months of research later I knew I had to do it.

If I never found the knowledge, I wouldn't have the desire to change.

Definitely, yes. I've known about "the cure" since the 1960's, when I first heard a comment about Christine Jurgenson, by Johnny Carson on the Tonight Show. I was at first elated to know that one could actually change their sex to match their inner gender, but then horrible frustration set in, because I didn't know how to go about doing it myself, and had nowhere to go to find out, and no one to confide in. I was also locked into a job where any mention of changing sex, would have been disastrous I lived for the next forty years, knowing that it was possible for some, but not for me.  The information that at first made me happy, eventually made me more depressed. And that depression became even more acute, when I finally got internet access, and discovered a whole world of information, and peer encouragement, that I could have put to use thirty years earlier, when transitioning would have truly made a positive difference in my life. Now at 60 years old, with a bald head, a gray beard, and some health issues related to my once obese state (brought on solely by my gender frustration), I'm too old to go on hormones, and not a good candidate for surgery. It's like I've always been outside, looking at the party through the window all of these years, but I can never get an invitation.   

Melissaalisonp,

Wow, you have no idea how completely I identify with your post right from Christine Jurgenson on.

You have no idea how depressed I was the day I heard on the news that Christine had died from cancer. She was my hope and bright light of possibilities. That day is to this day sad for me to think about. Cancer supposedly caused by her hormone use which was just as depressing cause I so wanted those same hormones.

erty

erty,

Thanks so much for your response to my post. Yes, I was heartbroken by the news of Christine's death too. In fact I clipped her obituary out of the paper, and keep it to this day, with some of my more private writings, which include my personal biography, inspired by the book, Conundrum, by the writer, Jan (formerly James) Morris. I often wonder if today's transitioning girls recognize the extent, that pioneer trans women, like Christine Jurgenson, Jan Morris, and Renee Richards,  made it possible for them to free themselves from this curse.
Take care love,
Melissa

I haven't included my own experience here yet, but since this thread has revived, I felt it appropriate to do so.  I think I was about 11 when I first ever heard about the possibility of "sex change".  My parents were watching L.A. Law and the court case of the day was about a transgendered woman.  I never watched the episode and only caught the end of it.  My mom was commenting on how sweet it was that the lawyer kissed the hand of the transgendered woman.  I came into the room from my bedroom and started asking questions.  My dad and mom became uncomfortable and it was eventually settled that L.A. Law is just TV and not real.  They told me men cannot really become women.  The experience still had a profound effect.  I had never considered that I could actually BECOME a female before that time despite my feelings that I was one inside.  I started from that point to become more obsessed with it.

I often wondered if I obsessed myself in to this.  But I think that it has some basis in real fact.  I am, have always been pledged by GID.  I do know that I can not, will not ever detransition.  It is paramount to committing suicide.

And I wonder how many alcoholics are only drinking to kill the pain?   How many drug addicts?  How any suicides?  To think that this is the creation of an obsessed mind is ludicrous.  Is schizophrenia a product of obsession?  Anorexia?  Is bi polar disorder?  hearing voices? What about Joan of Arc, was she just nutzoid?

No, this has been around for a long time.  History is full of examples.  Look into the civil war.  Women fought as men.

I am sorry, but this real.  As real as your own hand.  Medicine is just now catching up with GID.

Is the 'cure' a curse?  No, it a cure for the curse.  The curse of GID.


Janet

Quote from: interalia on April 11, 2009, 11:47:01 AM
This post -> https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=58248.msg370594#msg370594 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=58248.msg370594#msg370594)
Got me thinking about a question I've had for some time.  There is a lot of great discussion in the other thread, so rather than detract from it, I decided to make a new topic.

The question is, before there was SRS, how did people cope with their GID?  Is there any evidence of such people and their choices?  I mean, all I have is speculation from looking at people in history and their 'bizarre' behavior, but perhaps one of you knows more.

More important question then - does knowledge of a 'cure' make not having the 'cure' worse?  Meaning, does knowing that the option to transition and have SRS exist make it worse for those with GID who do not have it?

Since this topic has been revived, I'll give it a shot based on my experience. If I had been born exactly like this in a time where there was nothing women could do to change their bodies, and men born like me who had big tits and pretty feminine faces could do nothing to pass, I would've been the same I was in this life, miserable.

See, I lived like 27 years without knowing of a cure for female to male transsexualism. I had no idea T could make me look like a guy (only reference I had of women taking androgens was female body builders who looked gross to me (no offense to any here  :laugh:) and not 'male' just muscular). I had no idea there was such a surgery to reconstruct a male chest. I had toyed with the idea of breast reduction but found that it only reduces your breasts so far and frankly if I had to have tits, they were going to stay nice and big like they were.
I'd heard of ftms, but just assumed they were women who sewed their boxes up and had a penis attached, which didn't interest me at all. I didn't know hormones could do anything, because the only trans people I ever came in contact with were the people in my community who looked like guys in dresses and make up. I was ignorant of the whole thing. I didn't even know they identified as women until a gay friend cautioned me not to use male pronouns for them. I was as clueless as your average cisperson.

So, yeah I had no knowledge of a 'cure'. Which may be pretty common among older ftms who were never really a part of the queer community. And even some who were big in the queer community, possibly. Ftms were nowhere in the media just a few short years ago. Your average Midwestern guy like me probably had little knowledge of it unless he was enmeshed in the queer community. Hell, Jerry Springer never even had ftms on to my knowledge (maybe he has now, but not back when he was my morning dope breakfast entertainment). So, there are essentially some transpeople who were in the dark ages as much as ancient peoples as far as the 'cure'.

When I got clean a couple years ago, I knew I had to face my demons and I began to research and only then did I discover 'the cure'. I surely didn't see it as a curse. I saw the chance to actually live for the first time. I don't know how I would've felt had I heard about the cure at age 10. I'dve begged my folks for it and been refused, probably. But I would have had hope. And for my whole life I didn't. I pretty much died mentally and emotionally from the age of 11 onward. Had to be drugged by doctors from the age of 14. I literally lived my life under heavy sedation from 14 to about 18. Then drugged myself. Before the 'cure' I was dying from a terminal illness.

I think it's good to come at the cure and our condition from all angles, so it's good to ask these questions. In my own experience, far from being a curse, the 'cure' gave me hope for the first time since puberty.

I think the 'cure' is definitely a positive thing. Before knowing about transition, I was just miserable. I had heard of transsexuals before but I only knew of MtF, and didn't really understand it. I just thought of guys getting their dicks chopped off but still looking like men. Because of my lack of knowledge, I had no idea what was wrong with me. I was depressed often for no real reason, finding outlets for my depression in things like drugs and cutting. I felt like no one else in the world felt like me. Finding out about the ability to transition made a world of difference. Even before I started the actual process, just knowing there were others like me built up my confidence a LOT. I stopped pretending to be someone I wasn't. I think the only part of the 'cure' that is a curse is how hidden it seems to be and the lack of correct information out there. I wish I could have found out about transitioning a lot earlier, then maybe instead of wasting thousands of dollars on cocaine I could've spent that on surgery..

I think knowing that there is a "cure" is also positive for me.  No, I wouldn't have just gone about life, wishing to be a boy but knowing there was no way to do it.  I would continue to feel strongly about my gender, often subconsciously.  I would not have relationships that were not full of resentment, insecurity and even hatred.  I would never want to have sex, get a job, and the rest of it.  I'd never feel "complete" or even somewhat.  I guess it really depends on the person, but without an answer to this, I'd live a life of desolation and hatred.  I would feel a lot of anger towards women because I'd hate my own femininity, and feel a lot of anger towards men because I'd hate my lack of masculinity.

So I could hardly even have real friendships.  Nonetheless go outside and feel a part of the social world.

Yep... It's important for me to simply live a normal life.  But such is not the case for everyone - many would be alright until they learned there was a cure.  But perhaps these people are the greatest at coping.

Quote from: interalia on April 11, 2009, 11:47:01 AM
More important question then - does knowledge of a 'cure' make not having the 'cure' worse?  Meaning, does knowing that the option to transition and have SRS exist make it worse for those with GID who do not have it?

Not in my opinion. Power is the ability to choose. Wallowing in the inability to do something doesn't sound very good. If I don't try to fix it there's nobody to blame but myself in this case. Some people voluntarily wallow in a percieved inability to do something. This is the worst kind, but I'm sure we've all done it at some point.

Late poster,
SilverFang

I was at the height of my depression at the time that I perceived that there was nothing that could be done. I often thought about ending my life because I saw no point in living trapped forever, with the only "solution" being to look like a guy pretending to be a girl the rest of my life. I had this perception that all transsexuals looked like cross-dressers. And I didn't want to ever be that, but I couldn't live as a guy either.

It was only by becoming more educated and knowledgeable, and hearing the many success stories that I started to feel that it might actually possible to one day appear on the outside the way I feel on the inside. And that hope is perhaps the only reason I'm motivated to keep going on.

So is the knowledge of a cure the curse? For me at least, it was the exact opposite.

Knowing there IS a cure but being to all intents and purposes barred from ever having it is a torture, yes.
At 15 or so years old (1969) I knew and had to learn to accept that my height, build and features meant that I could never transition ( - in the sense of Pass 100% of the time and back then  anything less would be hell on earth )

At 54  (2007) I transitioned regardless because I had nowhere left to go except into the coffin.
Thank God (or whoever) that times have moved on and my life (in-role and pre-op) is actually pretty good - far from great, but adequate.... liveable.... a lot better than death.

- but all these years of thinking "not only was I born into the wrong body but the f****** body I WAS born into is SO wrong that even tens of thousands of pounds of the most drastic surgery couldn't ever correct it" ..... yeah, that was tough    ;)

I think a kery feature of transitioning was my strong opinion of transitioning from Male...to.....Female...as opposed to Male to transexual. The/my entire drive was/is to be the woman I know I am meant to be, and not a third (or associated) gender which experiences the "special treatment" society deems it acceptable to inflict..special toilet facilities, the use of "It" in conversations, and various levels of prejudice and marginalisation....understandably why the brave souls who fully tansition choose stealth mode as their ulimate aim.
I feel transexualism is a gene driven aspect of nature, with its roots in the history of our DNA...the genetically stable strategy being for a radical and diverse provison of assured nuturing of young genes, by facilitating males with a gender altering instruction within the gene sequence which is activated either randomly to proliferate the number of maternal figures in the social group, or through a nature driven cue possibley a significant sudden change in
social and gender ratios. Therefore it may be theorised that there is no cure for transexualim, as there is no cure for homosexualim, again a gene driven strategy.

For me, it's not a curse but sometimes torture knowing of the cure but not having access to it. If I had the $$$ and there weren't anyone it would hurt I would have SRS in a New York Minute!! But life, family, JOB all influence what I am able to do and I am certain many others are in this same situation. If I transition I may loose my job and my family so I would be living possibly in a cardboard box in the woods somewhere-not good. At the present I am getting my ducks in a row to rid myself of T altogether. If I am able to have SRS great but I do not see it happening within the next few years leaving me somewhere in my 60's. We shall see where all this leads-I live one day at a time and each one is precious.

Randi

Edit: Today my disphoria is stronger than I have ever felt. Yes knowing there is a cure and not having access to it is definately a living hell but not a curse. When I am stable mentally I feel that my life has been a great gift and in spite of my struggles I  force my will to accept my current situation with grace and gratitude. I think my background in martial arts helps me to strengthen my resolve and move forward so I can be a positive influence to someone else. I am very much like my mother. I apologize for being weak today and I hope you aren't offended by my posts. Hopefully I can see a therapist soon. My health insurance has gone to a $4000 out of pocket plan and I am certain there will be a negative effect on the quality of my healthcare.  :(

haha, well I went through a lot of stuff before getting to this point. At 7 my mom sent me to a councilor 'cause I kept telling her I wasn't a boy. Living in a small, religious town, and the though of the day was that if you caught a kid early enough you wouldn't grow up and be trans.

I had no idea what trans was. The councilor just taught me self-acceptance, and so on. I was also sent to a speech therapist 'cause I kept trying to speak high like women, so they tried to calm that down. I also had some pronunciation problems on top of that, so that was part of the speech therapy.

At 13, I tried to cut my penis off. o_0 I didn't get very far, and didn't make any perminate damage other than a scar. At that time, I had no idea what transgender was or that anything existed like that. I wasn't liking that I was turning into a boy. Again, councelling.

I was extremely depressed after that still.

Eventually I heard about transgender off some TV talk show. It was the first time I found out and something struck a cord with me.  Uh, but when I told everyone else, not such a good idea.

At 15, after church telling me that being transsexual was a grave sin the sunday before. I went to the front of the church and slashed both my wrists and yelled out for god to talk me. Yes, I was a very fk'd up kid. I was taken to the hospital.

After that, I tried my hardest to pray to god to make me normal. After I graduated, the church put me through anti-gay/trans therpay. I saw their councellers, and they tested my psycholgoy with some three hour fill in the blank test. Came back as trans, but I also had a lot of issues and confusion.

I gave it a shot. But, in the end I just found I was more depressed, I couldn't be normal. I tried so hard. I felt so guilty for being trans. I felt so bad for having all of those issues. I felt like a failure. I felt as if i was the most evilist person alive.

I then committed suicide. There was no point. I was going to hell anyway, so why not OD.

Well, despite being dead for a few mins, I was revived. I had to face life. I also spent a lot of time in the psych wards after. I was really, really, really messed up.

Even after that, I tried other things. I just tried to be "normal." I had girlfriends. I tried going to school. I even tried being gay. It didn't shake things. More time in the psych ward, and a lot of working on myself.

Through working myself I resolved to transition. It was the best course of action for me. Over all, I'm much more happier and find life is better. I've also worked with a lot of my issues, too. Transition doesn't cure everything and make the world all rainbows. I'm still messed in the head, some what -- but not as bad as I was.

My case might be more extreme than others. I don't know. *shrugs* But, at least, I'm not finding myself in the psychwards anymore. LOL I'd say that I'm successful.

The difference between then and now: I'm more confident. I'm stronger. I'm able to take better care of myself. I've been able to make friends, and be more social. And so much more. Granted, all of that took work and I worked very hard on my psych issues before and while going through transition. Transition gave me the vehicle to do that. Transition wasn't taken on a whim or taken lightly. It was taken after a lot of thought and working with my doctors. It was right for me -- but that's my case.

Psych was, transition has made a huge difference, too. And, yeah, years of being confused and messed up in the head and getting different messages has its toll. All of that isn't gonna vanish over night. I still see my doctors. I still take pillz for my bipolar. Transition has helped over all, but it's only part of my life and part of the issues. yes, a lot of my issues come from that -- but I also have major issues from coming from an abusive home, as well. It's all steps towards becoming me.

I'm happy that I've transitioned, and it's really helped me to work on and unravel other issues in my life. It's opened doors. And, I finally feel like I'm living life, rather than constantly trying to escape life. I have a reason to live. I'm not just wandering around place to place, hospital to hospital, with no hope, direction, or desire. It's weird, 'cause I've never felt more alive than I do now. I feel as if I'm alive. I've never felt alive before transitioning. I never had a reason to live. I didn't care if I died. I chased death. I craved death. Hell never scared me, 'cause it was all I knew. But life, wow, this is different... now I wanna live. I wanna experience life.

If I lived in a world where transition wasn't possible. I'd probably be dead, for sure. No question about that.

OMG, and I thought I had things rough. I can relate to your childhood just without counselling. I toughened up as it wasn't ever tolerated in my parents home-strict religious upbringing. I too used drugs of different types to forget but eventually it all comes back to visit. I wish I could have transitioned before T wrecked my body. But it is what it is and I am dealing with it now that I am older. Please feel free to PM me if you need to talk. We have so much to live for inspite of our struggles.

Bye for now,
Randi 8)

I'll say that if I didn't know transition to be possible, as well as that FtMs can actually be MALE instead of "butch its", I probably would have just been miserable and made the best of what I had. I'll even say that the knowledge I can do something about it makes the dysphoria more intense...I liken it to a kid waiting for a trip to Disney World; as soon as they know for sure they can go, that's all they think about.

I didn't know much about TS outside of porn and Jerry Springer reruns up 'til I hit high school. It never occured to me a transwoman could live a normal female life and didn't even know transmen existed. Somewhere the light popped onto my head that there was probably a way to take the tits off if you could put them on...so the internet was my savior in that respect.