Susan's Place Transgender Resources

dont know if a topic like this was posted, if so o well
i myself am very femme i like typical *girl things*
anyone else femme?

I'm typically the opposite. :P

I'm not the most masculine bloke out there. I have little feminine traits and, I admit it, I'm a twink..
but I don't consider myself "femme" in any way either.

i never understood that, honestly.
no, i'm a man; i enjoy masculine things?
i believe everyone has both masculine and feminine traits, but i don't consider myself femme. repulsed at the thought, actually.



"i myself am very femme i like typical *girl things*"

and you call yourself a FTM?
makes no sense to me, but alright.

um, i dont need to be some overtly macho guy to valid that i am a guy
masculine does not neccesarilly equal man
im repulsed by the thought of manly, super macho guys

Yes, one can be femme and male; just look my avatar photo!  If you thought that was a woman, you're wrong.  It's Pete Burns.
I myself have long hair and prefer women's clothing to men's.  However, as I would prefer to be referred to with male pronouns and have a male body, I consider myself male.

Well, I'm not femme. But I like pretty things. I highlight my hair and wear mascara. Not sure if this is the result of my being raised female or not. (course not everyone raised female likes feminine things).
I was encouraged to like and do certain things I would've been steered away from had I been raised male.

---

Post Merge: April 11, 2009, 01:05:38 PM

---

Quote from: hayden. on April 11, 2009, 04:15:41 PM
i never understood that, honestly.
no, i'm a man; i enjoy masculine things?
i believe everyone has both masculine and feminine traits, but i don't consider myself femme. repulsed at the thought, actually.



"i myself am very femme i like typical *girl things*"

and you call yourself a FTM?
makes no sense to me, but alright.

Hey let's not judge here. To each his own.

Quote from: Nero on April 11, 2009, 05:04:07 PM
Well, I'm not femme. But I like pretty things. I highlight my hair and wear mascara. Not sure if this is the result of my being raised female or not. (course not everyone raised female likes feminine things).
I was encouraged to like and do certain things I would've been steered away from had I been raised male.

---

Post Merge: April 11, 2009, 01:05:38 PM

---

Hey let's not judge here. To each his own.

Same thing... who knows if I would like combat video games as much if I was raised as a girl

I'm more comfortable about being femme now that I'm transitioning. As in, I feel right being a femme guy but not at all being a femme girl. Some of the most feminine people I know are men so, go figure, lol. To me, so much about femme and masculine behaviour I view as individual qualities without gendered attachment.

ETA: I'm also a member of the livejournal group femme_ftm :)

I'm just femme in the way I act. I am the stereotypical gay man, except I like girls too. :P

lol, exactly "stereotypical gay man" is what I'm usually read as nowadays... cept, I can't for the life of me do that effeminate lisp thingee -_- heh

feminine gay/bi guys are the hottest   :-*

Do what you like, what makes you happy.  Don't worry about what others say or do.  They have their right to do as they will too.  I think that most of what people label 'fem' or 'macho' is just so much closed minded BS anyway.  Simple minds are easy to amuse I guess.

I actually think I got a little more fem once I accepted that I wasn't female.  And personally, I like femme guys way more than the super masculine.  :D 

Quote from: tekla on April 12, 2009, 12:27:13 AM
Do what you like, what makes you happy.  Don't worry about what others say or do.  They have their right to do as they will too.

Amen to that.

Quote from: hayden. on April 11, 2009, 04:15:41 PM
"i myself am very femme i like typical *girl things*"

and you call yourself a FTM?
makes no sense to me, but alright.

Quote from: emoboi on April 11, 2009, 04:30:49 PM
um, i dont need to be some overtly macho guy to valid that i am a guy
masculine does not neccesarilly equal man

He shoots he scores!! Exactly right Emoboi :D

I have female traits about just like most men do whether they choose to show them or not is another matter, I would call my self a Metrosexual kinda guy, like to take good care of myself, smell nice, hair nice, nice clothes, clean shaven. Sorta guy.

Jay

Just because I like to keep my hair and nails neat and clean doesn't make me less of a man.

I know a few "femme" or "feminine" FTMs and honestly, it doesn't make them any less the great men they are.

I prefer the term "effeminate"...

--Mr. Effeminate x]

^ Oh I agree on the effeminate term.


I like to dress up in women's clothes at the weekend.

Quote from: kestin on April 11, 2009, 11:40:42 PM
lol, exactly "stereotypical gay man" is what I'm usually read as nowadays... cept, I can't for the life of me do that effeminate lisp thingee -_- heh

Haha, I can do it, but I don't understand why anyone would ever want to sound like that...

I'm a femme sometimes but I still call myself FtM  ;D

I don't know that'd I'd consider myself a femme guy, but I'm definitely not a "manly man". I don't enjoy watching sports, building things, or working on cars. That said, most of my bio-male friends aren't very "manly" either.

Ha ha, now I'm remembering my "masculine" stage in early high school.  I still wore nail polish, among other things.

Hmm, a sort of difficult question.  While as a female I am never thought of as "butch" or anything of the sort, I'm definitely masculine.  As a man, I think I'm more like a metrosexual type.  I like to keep very clean, can spend quite a lot of time making sure my hair is the way I like it, and I like nice clothes.  Male clothes, but nice ones; I really adore European fashion.  So, I guess I could come off as a "gay guy" (actually pansexual/bisexual/etcetera) but not the stereotypical type.  Like a European gay guy!   ;)

Quote from: kestinI'm more comfortable about being femme now that I'm transitioning. As in, I feel right being a femme guy but not at all being a femme girl. 

I feel the same way. I'm pre-T, I paint my nails, wear makeup, cross-dress to a degree. I feel that I'd be way more comfortable and free with it if I were male-bodied. I mean, I would not wear a dress now or go to extreme, but I definitely would if I were born male (or will, after transition).

some bio-men do this...doesn't mean they aren't male. so why can't we?

Quote from: kestinSome of the most feminine people I know are men so, go figure, lol. To me, so much about femme and masculine behaviour I view as individual qualities without gendered attachment.

I agree, 100%.

lol I'm a very femme guy and proud! lol though i do have to pretend to be macho cause my therapist doesn't have much experience apparently...at least i dont think she does since she pulled out her book to see what to ask me xD  lol and i don't dress it either just because uhh still have curves and girly parts so it'd be noticeable besides! packing with my packer and wearing tight pants would just be horrifying! I'll give someone nightmares xD

Not really. Am I the only FTM here who doesn't consider himself femme?

I'm physically pretty feminine (and I judge that by the fact that I don't think I could pass without hormones) But I pretty much draw the line there. I don't really consider myself a gay guy and don't intend to be one once I transition.

No I doubt your the only one. Actually I think gay ftms are a minority within the ftm group lol not saying that all feminine ftms are gay of course ^.^

lol yeah, I think we're the slight minority in the entire ftm spectrum... that being said, beforehand in order to transition, people had to be the epitomes of masculinity or vice versa, femininity for mtfs. I think that some might repress their natural tendencies to deviate from the expected norm, so they're seen as their desired gender and thus, be able to transition.

Also, I think there's a difference between male femininity and female femininity just like female masculinity is different to male masculinity (judith halberstams book 'female masculinity' is a good read on this subject)

Apologies if my grammar is poor, its getting late down here XD

Quote from: SilverFang on April 15, 2009, 12:44:01 AM
Not really. Am I the only FTM here who doesn't consider himself femme?

I'm physically pretty feminine (and I judge that by the fact that I don't think I could pass without hormones) But I pretty much draw the line there. I don't really consider myself a gay guy and don't intend to be one once I transition.

No, you're not alone. I'm no femme. I'm just vain.

Quote from: SilverFang on April 15, 2009, 12:44:01 AM
Not really. Am I the only FTM here who doesn't consider himself femme?

I'm physically pretty feminine (and I judge that by the fact that I don't think I could pass without hormones) But I pretty much draw the line there. I don't really consider myself a gay guy and don't intend to be one once I transition.

I don't consider myself femme either. More as "just a regular guy"

Quote from: Nero on April 15, 2009, 07:06:15 AM
No, you're not alone. I'm no femme. I'm just vain.

Same here.

i wouldn't consider myself "femme" but i'm not super macho either. i love shopping and wear nice clothes and my mannerisms are somewhat feminine. but i don't think i'm femme, i just prefer to look nice haha

i think more bio guys would be more feminine if they had been raised female.  then they would have realized that some "girl" things aren't so bad!  haha  since i was raised female, that stupid "i have to pluck my eyebrows to look good" thing was impressed on me in high school.  it made me realize that i like it when my eyebrows are shaped and i don't have a unibrow.  LOL  so yes... i do pluck and trim my eyebrows.  i call it "manscaping"  take a look at some guys and see.  do they look like theyre walking around with caterpillars on their face?

Quote from: kestin on April 15, 2009, 07:02:07 AM
Also, I think there's a difference between male femininity and female femininity just like female masculinity is different to male masculinity

That's a good point.  Most people who know me think I'm a lesbian because they are ignorant and think that all lesbians are butch (although, I wouldn't really call myself "butch"...but anyway).  I make for a masculine female and a slightly effeminate male.  Go figure.  ;)

Quote from: Jaimey on April 15, 2009, 04:26:20 PM
I make for a masculine female and a slightly effeminate male.  Go figure.  ;)

That's how I feel... Except I don't like being seen as a masculine female. I gotta get over that hang up of mine. :P

Quote from: Josh on April 15, 2009, 03:32:46 PM
i think more bio guys would be more feminine if they had been raised female.  then they would have realized that some "girl" things aren't so bad!  haha  since i was raised female, that stupid "i have to pluck my eyebrows to look good" thing was impressed on me in high school.  it made me realize that i like it when my eyebrows are shaped and i don't have a unibrow.  LOL  so yes... i do pluck and trim my eyebrows.  i call it "manscaping"  take a look at some guys and see.  do they look like theyre walking around with caterpillars on their face?

Oh, God yes.  One of my friends has got the prime minister thing going on, and I just want to attack his face with tweezers.  Most people who pluck, unfortunately, go too far and/or have a crappy shape (Advice: draw the eyebrow you want first, then pluck all hairs whose roots are outside the line.)  A few rare individuals, like my French teacher, manage it well and have awesome eyebrows.  I don't pluck my eyebrows because you can't see them anyway.

Quote from: Osiris on April 15, 2009, 06:49:56 PM
Except I don't like being seen as a masculine female.

Me either. :) 

I agree with tekla.

As for myself, I am mostly masculine, but there are girly things I like. This is true with everyone. You have both masculine and feminine traits, whether you want them or not.

Quote from: Mr. Fox on April 15, 2009, 06:57:14 PM
Oh, God yes.  One of my friends has got the prime minister thing going on, and I just want to attack his face with tweezers.  Most people who pluck, unfortunately, go too far and/or have a crappy shape (Advice: draw the eyebrow you want first, then pluck all hairs whose roots are outside the line.)  A few rare individuals, like my French teacher, manage it well and have awesome eyebrows.  I don't pluck my eyebrows because you can't see them anyway.

Eh, the reason men generally look down upon eyebrow plucking is because men usually have such thick eyebrows that it's almost impossible to pluck them, and still have them look natural. No matter how nice the shape, if they look plucked, they look bad.

Personally, I wouldn't mind doing it but my eyebrow hairs are so thin, you probably wouldn't see them at all if I plucked them. That and it's way too much upkeep. :-P

Who cares if eyebrows look natural?  What matters is if they look good.  Also, there isn't much difference between male and female eyebrows unplucked, but so many girls pluck their eyebrows that it seems that way.

im not saying that i like guys to have pencil thin super curved eyebrows... i just dont want them to look like theyve been hibernating for 15 years. :P

Quote from: Josh on April 16, 2009, 02:53:05 PM
im not saying that i like guys to have pencil thin super curved eyebrows... i just dont want them to look like theyve been hibernating for 15 years. :P

Yes.  Most people's eyebrows are fine naturally.  It's kind of like leg hair:  you don't have to shave, but if your legs resemble shag carpet you should at least mow them.

nothing wrong with a bit of manscaping...
but the thought of two gaint 'bears' living together is too cute to require all men to groom.

Quote from: Mr. Fox on April 16, 2009, 09:04:30 PM
Yes.  Most people's eyebrows are fine naturally.  It's kind of like leg hair:  you don't have to shave, but if your legs resemble shag carpet you should at least mow them.

LMAO. Oh god. That is the best thing I've heard today.

Quote from: Nicky on April 16, 2009, 09:17:01 PM
nothing wrong with a bit of manscaping...
but the thought of two gaint 'bears' living together is too cute to require all men to groom.

That sounds cute to you?  Well, whatever turns your crank ;)

Quote from: emoboi on April 11, 2009, 02:46:17 PM
dont know if a topic like this was posted, if so o well
i myself am very femme i like typical *girl things*
anyone else femme?

That sounds like a gender queer female but not man or male.  If you want to be a man be a man.  Even gay blokes have got some masculinity in them and don't only like "typical girl things".

Quote from: Sabine on April 18, 2009, 09:05:19 AM
That sounds like a gender queer female but not man or male.  If you want to be a man be a man.  Even gay blokes have got some masculinity in them and don't only like "typical girl things".

Um, stereotyping?  Everyone here is quite capable of identifying their own gender; we don't need you to do it for us and make people feel like ->-bleeped-<-.

Quote from: Mr. FoxEveryone here is quite capable of identifying their own gender; we don't need you to do it for us and possibly make people feel like ->-bleeped-<- in the process.

That's debatable.  Can I identify as a bird?  Yea I can but that would cause a lot of laughs.

Quote from: Sabine on April 18, 2009, 09:05:19 AM
That sounds like a gender queer female but not man or male.  If you want to be a man be a man.  Even gay blokes have got some masculinity in them and don't only like "typical girl things".

that's what i was trying to say.
thank you ~

We need to be careful not to label others. If Emoboi identifies as male, he is male. End of story.

Quote from: Sabine on April 18, 2009, 09:23:45 AM
Not in the real planet I live on & I'm from.  If you're from a fantasy land, perhaps but not in this world.  Not to be mean just realistic.

You don't have to be in fantasy-land to decide who you are yourself rather than handing over the authority to a complete stranger who has not thought very hard about your gender identity.  If you think you can decide everyone else's gender, you're the one in fantasy land.

Really the only thing that made me want to transition was that I didn't feel correct in a female body... it felt wrong to me. Now that I'm transitioning and being read as male, I feel right for the first time in my life. However, I still like to do all the girly crap I did before, only now I get kinda odd looks XD heh heh... though I fit into the gay community quite well now *does shibby dance* and being a feminist, I don't find traits that are usually gendered to be female, to have any kind of shame associated with them >_< so why should I stop?

NEWAY, in my experience, dudes can be just as girly as emoboi so people shouldn't give a flying-f**k what others say about 'acting like a man' et cetera.

Quote from: Sabine on April 18, 2009, 09:05:19 AM
That sounds like a gender queer female but not man or male.  If you want to be a man be a man.  Even gay blokes have got some masculinity in them and don't only like "typical girl things".

There are a lot of men, gay or straight, who are very feminine but still comfortable in identifying and being seen as male. The same thing applies for transguys. Gender identity and gender expression are not always the same thing. I'm sure you weren't trying to be mean or attack anyone, but this comment came off as pretty rude

Quote from: SilverFang on April 15, 2009, 12:44:01 AM
Not really. Am I the only FTM here who doesn't consider himself femme?

Definitely not the only guy. I'm just a regular guy and have never been remotely interested in things stereotypically feminine, but for those guys who are, it's cool. You are who you are, not what you do, what you like or who you like.

Dennis

Quote from: Dennis on April 18, 2009, 06:45:11 PM
Definitely not the only guy. I'm just a regular guy and have never been remotely interested in things stereotypically feminine, but for those guys who are, it's cool. You are who you are, not what you do, what you like or who you like.

Dennis

Amen.

I am somewhat feminine, I think that once I am on T I will be more feminine, I like makeup, and I dont want super huge muscles.

I just want to be one of those guys who is obviously male, but feminine male

Mixed bag, I guess.

I have a lot of body language that most people would attribute to 'gays', and a certain freedom in expressing myself that I don't see in many guys. It probably does, and will continue to, make me come across as a bit fruity. Like a theatre tech. However, I don't like women's clothing, don't paint my nails, don't brush my hair most days, loathe makeup, and totally only dig the females (sorry guys). I love mechanics and mathematics, but I also am big on crafts. I'll knit a sweater and weave a rug, make a delicious dinner from scratch, but after doing the dishes I might be climbing up onto the roof to replace some shingles.

I'm not really worried about being 'masculine'. I feel like I belong in a man's body, and that's enough for me. I just want to be myself.

Quote from: Mr. Fox on April 11, 2009, 04:51:55 PMYes, one can be femme and male; just look my avatar photo!  If you thought that was a woman, you're wrong.  It's Pete Burns.

Yeah...  I knew that.  His lips have haunted my nightmares for years.


As to the question by the original poster, here's my story:

I was a pretty androgynous little kid.  I went to Catholic school, so that meant a skirted uniform for myself, but after school, it would be jeans and sweaters or t-shirts.  I wasn't a "tomboy" by any stretch of the imagination, though I had an interest in science, dinosaurs, bugs... but also Broadway musicals.  When shopping for a new dress for Christmas mass, my mother often commented that I had the taste of a drag queen -- anything with velvet, glitter, sequins, layered skirts, etc..., were on the tops of my lists (but cos we were poor, my mother would always get something with velvet and lace that I didn't totally hate).  I rejected pink on account of it being "a girl colour" -- but would gladly play "make-up artist" with my younger sister.

In high school, I was more knock-about and my school's "goth clique" consisted of me and four guys, two of whom wore at least eyeliner to school regularly, and at certain points, all of us but one were dying our hair.

Fresh out of high school, I had a crisis of "high femme" -- or at least as high as can be afforded somebody with a purple Mohawk.  After a few years of that, I dove head-first into suits and dressing like a cross between Marc Almond and Kraftwerk's Der Mensch Maschine album cover.  And at this point in transition, I now own more shoes than I ever have, more bottles of nail varnish (many of which, and more hair styling products; every time I see a hot guy with long hair, I find myself regretting getting mine cut.  I also drink a lot of Tab (that's still "femme", right?)

Oh man. Off-topic, but I'd totally forgotten about Tab. I lived on that stuff in high school. I was also working night-shift at a 7-11 while going to school full time, so the stuff was like sleep-replacement in a can for me. Good stuff, good times.

Quote from: kestin on April 11, 2009, 11:40:42 PM
lol, exactly "stereotypical gay man" is what I'm usually read as nowadays... cept, I can't for the life of me do that effeminate lisp thingee -_- heh

I don't do the lisp, but I can do the "British high camp / John Inman" voice.

Quote from: Yochanan on April 12, 2009, 11:29:04 AM
I prefer the term "effeminate"...

--Mr. Effeminate x]

I prefer the term "fabulous".

Quote from: Blanche on April 18, 2009, 09:23:45 AM
That's debatable.  Can I identify as a bird?  Yea I can but that would cause a lot of laughs.

This took me a few seconds to realise that you meant "aviary bird" and not "UK slang for girl bird".



Side-track --

Now that I'm thinking about it, i think in a few decades, guys wearing make-up and long hair, coloured hair, etc..., will be as "androgynised" as women wearing jeans is now.  So many rock musicians do it, and it's seen as pretty normal -- but thirty-some years ago, when it was pretty much just David Bowie, Marc Bolan, and Freddie Mercury (among others less famous), they'd get death-threats and it was treated as some incredibly freakish thing for any guy to do.

I'm not "femme", exactly -- I'm from the future.  :D

Quote from: SilverFang on April 15, 2009, 12:44:01 AMNot really. Am I the only FTM here who doesn't consider himself femme?

Nope.

I don't consider myself femme. I do believe people should not be labeled. The last thing we want  to do is jump from one box to another. So as long as you are happy and not hurting anyone else just be yourself.
Andrew/Myles

I would not consider myself "femme". A better word would be "slightly effeminate" or "flamboyant" or even "quirky"...the fact that I play mostly fairies in my MMO says it all >.<. I have a couple things that are downright girly, but for the most part I'm very much not.

Non-femme here. I guess I may have a few female mannerisms due to upbringing but I don't like them

Definitely not a femme but I don't think that if you are femme it makes you any less of a man, I just happen to not be effeminate.

Not effeminate either, but to each his own.

Quote from: Shadowlyc on December 09, 2009, 09:19:59 PM
Non-femme here. I guess I may have a few female mannerisms due to upbringing but I don't like them

Ditto, except I'm partial to the ones I've got.

I do not believe that specific activities or mannerisms are gender-transformative of ones expression. We're transsexuals. Trying to draw clear lines as to what is 'manly' and what is 'girly' is exactly what many of us have been fighting against for years. Why reaffirm these stereotypes by judging ourselves according to them?

If a woman hawks a spit on the side of the road, is it a 'manly' thing that she has done? No, she is spitting, that is all it is, and she must be doing it in a 'womanly' way, because she is a woman! More appropriately, her spitting is spitting, and it means whatever she needs it to.

I like perfumed soaps. This preference is a trait largely attributed to women, stereotypically. However, my enjoyment of the soap is not 'womanly', or 'feminine', my enjoyment is manly, and something a man does, because I am a man. My behavior does not transform me into 'feminine', or 'masculine'. I think we would do better not to try too hard to lump ourselves with these things. It's enticing, because we can paint ourselves into a comfortable stereotype that way, but it reinforces the concept of a gender binary (girls do this, and boys do THAT!).

These kinds of talks are interesting to me because I've noticed that, interestingly, I come across more hetero-normative speech and attitudes, stereotyping, and genderqueer/androgyne phobia in the trans community than I do in the gay community.

Quote from: Cairus on December 10, 2009, 01:29:18 PM
I do not believe that specific activities or mannerisms are gender-transformative of ones expression. We're transsexuals. Trying to draw clear lines as to what is 'manly' and what is 'girly' is exactly what many of us have been fighting against for years. Why reaffirm these stereotypes by judging ourselves according to them?

If a woman hawks a spit on the side of the road, is it a 'manly' thing that she has done? No, she is spitting, that is all it is, and she must be doing it in a 'womanly' way, because she is a woman! More appropriately, her spitting is spitting, and it means whatever she needs it to.

I like perfumed soaps. This preference is a trait largely attributed to women, stereotypically. However, my enjoyment of the soap is not 'womanly', or 'feminine', my enjoyment is manly, and something a man does, because I am a man. My behavior does not transform me into 'feminine', or 'masculine'. I think we would do better not to try too hard to lump ourselves with these things. It's enticing, because we can paint ourselves into a comfortable stereotype that way, but it reinforces the concept of a gender binary (girls do this, and boys do THAT!).

These kinds of talks are interesting to me because I've noticed that, interestingly, I come across more hetero-normative speech and attitudes, stereotyping, and genderqueer/androgyne phobia in the trans community than I do in the gay community.

Good post. Honestly, I think my 'female' mannerisms can be more attributed to a lack of male repression than anything else. I simply wasn't taught that it was wrong to show emotion or like certain things.

Quote from: Cairus on December 10, 2009, 01:29:18 PMThese kinds of talks are interesting to me because I've noticed that, interestingly, I come across more hetero-normative speech and attitudes, stereotyping, and genderqueer/androgyne phobia in the trans community than I do in the gay community.

Too true.  I've even found it more prevalent amongst TS persons than amongst even "straight" people.

I come across more hetero-normative speech and attitudes, stereotyping, and genderqueer/androgyne phobia in the trans community than I do in the gay community.

I've even found it more prevalent amongst TS persons than amongst even "straight" people.

Which kinda begs the question of what the heck is so hetronormative if other groups (not hetro) hold those speech, attitude, stereotyping, and phobia deals more true than, as you are saying, straights do?  Then, in fact, are then normative to that community anymore?  Is there anything in fact that we can define across any wide boundary as hetero-normative, that is not in fact far more normative in communities that are using the term hetero-normative as some sort of derogatory dismissal of what they are mearly finding at the moment, inconvenient?

Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2009, 03:58:48 PM
I come across more hetero-normative speech and attitudes, stereotyping, and genderqueer/androgyne phobia in the trans community than I do in the gay community.

I've even found it more prevalent amongst TS persons than amongst even "straight" people.

Which kinda begs the question of what the heck is so hetronormative if other groups (not hetro) hold those speech, attitude, stereotyping, and phobia deals more true than, as you are saying, straights do?  Then, in fact, are then normative to that community anymore?  Is there anything in fact that we can define across any wide boundary as hetero-normative, that is not in fact far more normative in communities that are using the term hetero-normative as some sort of derogatory dismissal of what they are mearly finding at the moment, inconvenient?

Heyy there, you're referring to statements made by two separate people as one and questioning both of us for something one of us has stated. You're quoting YSR stating that straight people are sometimes even less heteronormative than TS's, and going 'then it isn't heteronormative, because the heteros aren't doing that, the TSs and gay people are, so what is heteronormative, if it obviously isn't even normal for heterosexuals'. The thing is, I never referred to straight people versus X in my posts, in regards to enforcement of heteronormative views. It's sad that we're often more rigidly binary-gendered in our attitudes than even cisgendered lesbians and gays, and other types of 'queer'.

I'm pointing out that I've experienced transpeople having a tendency to reflect more heteronormative/binarey gendered views than OTHER queer people(gay, lesbian, pansexual, genderqueer, androgyne- the people who are not 'T', in the alphabet soup of LGBTQIA), which seems like a contradiction, because by being transsexual and existing, we are not heteronormative. We as a group tend to be somewhat narrow minded and one-way-thinking, despite the fact that we have issues with cisgendered people behaving that way towards US, gay or straight. I made no comparison between transsexual people versus straight cissexual people. I'm talking about transperson views/attitudes versus other queer views/attitudes.

What I think YSR is pointing out here, is that many transpeople are even more rigidly heteronormative toward each other at times than cissexual people are towards THEM. Let me draw up a picture, here. Say almost all cisgendered heterosexuals eat bread, it just goes without saying that they do. Their bread eating comes with the territory for them. (So, eating bread here is heteronormative. It's enforced mostly by cisgendered heteros, just about all of them do it, and take their bread for granted and all that jazz.)

YSR is pointing out that some transpeople obsessively eat that bread, in some cases, even more voraciously than cisgendered heteros do. Does that suddenly make the bread eating nature not apply to cissexual heteros? No.  Belgian waffles are still Belgian waffles, even if they're being eaten somewhere not Belgium, or by someone not Belgian. The Belgian waffle could be crazily popular in Croatia, but it doesn't suddenly change the nature of the waffle, that doesn't make it suddenly a Croatian waffle. It's a Belgian style waffle being eaten and made in Croatia.

I'm half korean and cook korean food. I'm not a korean citizen, nor have I ever lived in korea. I live in Alaska. The korean food I make and eat is still korea-originated. The food doesn't become korean-german-irish-transsexual because I'm the one eating it. Your question strikes me as based more on semantics than concept; if I used the term 'binary-gender-reaffirming' would you still feel the need to question it so?

I'm not pointing these things out because they're 'inconvenient to me', I'm pointing them out because they have the potential to be inconvenient to others, and to individuals reinforcing these concepts, inconvenient upon themselves. Let me make a more succinct statement embodying the message I'm trying to convey without discriminating against cisgendered heterosexuals:

I think it's negative for transsexuals to enforce or encourage gender stereotypes upon themselves and each other, because by simply being transsexual most of us violate those stereotypes and the societal expectations of our natal sex, so it would pay for us to put effort into questioning them and being more progressive with our thinking as opposed to gleefully pigeon-holing ourselves and each other within our own community.

-EDITED: For minor grammatical errors. Also: society considers us 'weird' and feels the need to 'think harder' to comprehend us. By existing, we spin peoples heads- you'd think we'd put more effort into understanding our own predicament and what it means!

Oh wow. . . this isn't my argument and I have nothing of value to add to it but I have to say, that's a great response.

Quote from: Cairus on December 10, 2009, 05:43:40 PMI think it's negative for transsexuals to enforce or encourage gender stereotypes upon themselves and each other, because by simply being transsexual most of us violate those stereotypes and the societal expectations of our natal sex, so it would pay for us to put effort into questioning them and being more progressive with our thinking as opposed to gleefully pigeon-holing ourselves and each other within our own community.

Yeah, pretty much.  And also the fact that, well, since there are obviously things like pink shirts that are clearly designed for men to wear, ostensibly cisgendered and "straight" men, then to be so violently opposed to wearing a pink shirt on account of "that's girly" basically makes us bigger freaks.

My room-mate, presumably without intending to, is constantly saying little things that imply policing what I should and should not be doing because I'm a TS man.  Funny story about that:

I dragged him out to Jo-Ann Fabric & Crafts so I could stock up on various supplies for my paganness, including a holiday wreath of faux evergreen covered in so much glitter it makes Edward Cullen look matte.  I'm wearing a lavender t-shirt with my astrological sign on it and a headband with sequinned antennae (because now that I'm a grown-up, I can wear anything I want to the store and Mum can't tell me I can't  :D ).  At the end of the line by the registers, there's a big basket of mostly pastel chenille slipper-socks, and what does my room-mate say? 

"Gee, these look nice and warm.  Too bad they're so girly."

"I thought if anything was going to stop you from getting some, if you wanted them, it would be the fact that your shoe size is a UK13. [USM14, USL15, approximately]"

"Well, yeah, but I meant for you."

The lady behind us:  "Why would your brother care if his socks were pink? Are you looking at him?"  (On the rare occasion I get read right around here, people tend to assume I'm his kid brother)

He does this kind of ->-bleeped-<- all the time, and I've hinted at it like that dozens of times how irritating it is, and finally told him in the car, point blank, how ridiculous he's being.  He'd've never said something like that to our friend Joey (who's gay and about as "fabulous" as me -- but cis-, so apparently that gets him a Free Pass to be as non-stereotypical as he wants to  ::) ), nor to the late John Inman.  He also has heard me kvetching for years about how annoying i find The ->-bleeped-<- Police(tm) -- trans persons who apparently have nothing better to do with themselves than sit around on the Internet all day, telling other TS persons what's "wrong" with their gender presentation, saying things that nobody would ever day say to cis- persons about their own presentation.


Of course, this whole issue gets more complex for TS women, especially the later in life they start transitioning, but the fact of the matter is, in both cases, cis- persons really aren't looking at all of the little perceived "flaws" in our appearances, mannerisms, and personalities as we think they are.  That's not to say "don't change anything during transition" -- just that the little quirks are more likely to be ignored than many TS people imagine.  Just find what works for you and don't sweat the rest.  And if what works for somebody else is a far cry from what would work for you, don't be a dingus.

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on December 10, 2009, 07:59:30 PM
Just find what works for you and don't sweat the rest.  And if what works for somebody else is a far cry from what would work for you, don't be a dingus.

^ this. Thank you for it.

A minority group becoming intolerant of certain internal factions is just another step in social evolution. Shows how far we've come, and indicates that maybe we overshot the mark a wee bit..

[I'm non femme, non butch, I'm the happy in between]

-Ev

I am definitely on the effeminate side. Hey, I'm gay, (sort of) don't judge me!  ::)

QuoteI think it's negative for transsexuals to enforce or encourage gender stereotypes upon themselves and each other, because by simply being transsexual most of us violate those stereotypes and the societal expectations of our natal sex, so it would pay for us to put effort into questioning them and being more progressive with our thinking as opposed to gleefully pigeon-holing ourselves and each other within our own community.

While I do agree that it is negative to reenforce stereotypes, I don't think that's what's going on in this thread.  The original poster wanted to know if there were other ftms like himself and "femme" is the best word he had to describe it. 

Stereotypes can be negative, but to be honest, I'm not sure this is even a thread about stereotypes.  We make comparisons to understand who we are, where we are in relation to other people, etc.  I understand that some people do get upset by labeling behaviors/mannerisms/looks as feminine or masculine, but in this case, I don't think that reaction would be justified. 

I'm not saying you're wrong or that these things don't need to be pointed out.  I'm just saying that we should save it for conversations that do take an offensive or chauvinistic turn.   :)

Quote from: Jaimey on December 14, 2009, 03:43:22 PM
While I do agree that it is negative to reenforce stereotypes, I don't think that's what's going on in this thread.  The original poster wanted to know if there were other ftms like himself and "femme" is the best word he had to describe it. 

Stereotypes can be negative, but to be honest, I'm not sure this is even a thread about stereotypes.  We make comparisons to understand who we are, where we are in relation to other people, etc.  I understand that some people do get upset by labeling behaviors/mannerisms/looks as feminine or masculine, but in this case, I don't think that reaction would be justified. 

I'm not saying you're wrong or that these things don't need to be pointed out.  I'm just saying that we should save it for conversations that do take an offensive or chauvinistic turn.   :)

Thanks for your insight, Jaimey. I'm not trying to come down on any fellow who considers himself feminine, he is allowed(of course), I'm just trying to encourage progressive thinking. FtMs considering themselves femme aren't the bane of forward thinking- it's all part of a greater whole, and a reflection of how deeply rooted the binary concepts of 'feminine' and 'masculine' are in everything, even objects and activities, which obviously don't have penises or vaginas on them. :) I suppose I was more making an observation on stereotyping in general, and the differences I notice in transcommunities versus other types of queer.

I wouldn't have felt the need to expound upon it so inclusively, but Tekla's input made me feel the need to clarify. I'm trying to give a thought provoking reminder, more than anything.  ;) There's no reason to wait for things to be 'unacceptably chauvinist' in order to start questioning them.

As a masquline MTF I tottaly get the femme FTM. Some traits we do not want to let go because they are either cool in our perception or they are just too ingrained in our being from years of conditioning.
All the personality traits that comprise a persons social being are unisex. Just add up too many of the 'wrong' traits and you get punished by society. (or our selves)
Just be, thats the best anyone can do.

Quote from: hayden. on April 11, 2009, 04:15:41 PM
"i myself am very femme i like typical *girl things*"

and you call yourself a FTM?
makes no sense to me, but alright.

It's this kind of thinking that makes society incapable of accepting gender variance of any type.  "and you call yourself a-" insert man, woman, FTM, MTF or whatever. 

In the case of ts individuals, it's hard to imagine that nothing from the gender we were raised as and lived as for many years had any affect on us.  I try to view those experiences as more than just a curse, but as a opportunity to be a more complete person in the end.

Quote from: Inanna on December 15, 2009, 06:11:08 AM
It's this kind of thinking that makes society incapable of accepting gender variance of any type.  "and you call yourself a-" insert man, woman, FTM, MTF or whatever. 

In the case of ts individuals, it's hard to imagine that nothing from the gender we were raised as and lived as for many years had any affect on us.  I try to view those experiences as more than just a curse, but as a opportunity to be a more complete person in the end.

Well, for some of us, especially younger people, I imagine, it's hard to gauge just how much differently we'd have been raised, if we were born the right sex.

I only had sisters until I was twelve, and after that, I had two step-brothers, and the youngest was still five years older than me.  To make matters even more complicated, at least as young children, my parents and my step-mother took a more "gender neutral" approach to things, so my sisters and I were never told "girls don't do that, so stop", and my step-bothers were never told that by their mother, either.  In both families, the father was very adamant that everybody "better learn how to cook and do basic sewing" -- my father had several rants that could all be summed up with "any man who doesn't know how to feed himself right and fix the holes in his clothes isn't a real man" and "any man who expects his wife to take care of him ought to be ashamed of himself".  If I had been born male, I don't see how any of that would have been different, and considering that my own father was both outwardly homophobic *and* a huge fan of Broadway and London musicals, he probably would have turned a blind eye to some of my eccentricities.

There was very little in my upbringing that seemed based on having a female body.  As a kindergärtner in Catholic school, I could read which lavvies were for the girls and boys, and knew what that meant in theory, but when the teacher lined us up for lavatory breaks, I saw that in practise this was done by what uniforms people wore, and I was wearing a blouse and dirndl.  When I asked my mother why I couldn't swear the shirt and suit uniform, she said "cos that's not the uniform i got you" and went back to kvetching to her mother about how my father was still unemployed, so i just assumed that the dirndl was cheaper.  The school uniform was pretty much the only "gendered" treatment that I noticed at the time; like I said, lacking any real brothers, it's hard to say.  And "gender neutral" parenting seems to be catching on more and more every year.