Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've been reading a lot of messages and I understand that some do not mean any harm when said. However, please be careful when you say that your reason for being non-op is because you feel that SRS/vaginoplasty does not provide one with a real vagina (whatever that means). I for one find this highly offensive for anyone to say to another person.

Some of you are very comfortable with the genitalia you were born with and that's o.k. I for one am not comfortable with my genitalia and have never been comfortable with my genitalia.  Some have used the term real vs. artificial and just as some of you consider viginoplasty to provide un-natural genitalia, my birth genitalia is un-natural to me simply because I was born a girl with male genitalia both mentally and physically. My body failed to develop male secondary sex characteristics and developed some female secondary sex characteristics that most men don't. To say that my genitalia is artificial or un-natural because I need a surgeon to correct this mishap is offensive to me and other girls like me that have to endure the same pain and suffering I have to go through in life.

Just be careful with the words you use. Not every woman or man that you see on the street is what you learned in sex ed class. Not everyone is born exactly the same. Biology is not perfect and there are mishaps. But, we are still human and want to be treated just as any other female or male that walks the street. If you can pass this on to any other non-op trans-woman or trans-man, many would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Jasmine

I agree. It gives me a sad feeling when someone generalize his or her feelings towards genital surgery and those feelings are being hurtful because of ignorance, bigotry or other things.

No person its being born the same. Just take a look at sites (non porn) where you can look in a natural situation at male and female genitalia. You will realize how different each one is from other while being the same sex.

Also, if we go by surgeries... then those that opt to have a labial reduction or a vaginal tightening. According to the comment of some person: arent they having then a "fake" genitalia?

Thank you for this, Jasmine.

I guess I know where those people are coming from. I have such thoughts from time to time, and they come from shame and guilt over the imaginary sin I never committed of being born the way I am. I know I wasn't born a "real" girl, and I know I should have been, and nothing can ever right that wrong. (And by "real" I mean, "authentic," "natural," "legitimate" -- that's where the shame comes in, and what I am trying to get over; I ought to just be happy to say I was born me.) But I can't let the fact of everything I've lost because of how i was born cloud my judgment regarding how to make the best of the life I've been given.

What you say about the arbitrariness of what people deem "natural" and "artificial" is the most important lesson to help me get over that. I guess you could say the most artificial thing there is in the world is the distinction between "natural" and "artificial."

It's their opinion... are they not entitled to it?  I mean.. if you don't approve of the wording someone uses.. don't read what they write.  Not trying to stir up a huge argument about this, but really, are we that worried about what other people think that we have to censor them?  It's not like they are name calling anyone in particular and just because you love your vagina and think it's the greatest thing since Skittles doesn't mean everyone feels that way.

Just my two dimes and a nickles worth.

While I believe very strongly that you are indeed hurt by this, please be rational for a moment.  Vaginoplasty is not the same thing as having a normal, built in, developed in the womb, vagina.  Some people believe that having a reasonable approximation is not good enough for their body.  They express simply their reasons for not having the surgery - and I doubt they mean any sort of implication of anyone else or their parts by it.

Say someone asked one of these people why they are non-op.  What do they say if they are not allowed to tell the truth?  Are they to lie to save someone else's potential hurt feelings?  Perhaps you could give us a phrase that would still express the same dissatisfaction with the current limits of the procedure without it coming across as offensive.  Or perhaps you could be choose to be the bigger, meeker, individual, and not be so easily offended by it.

To the 2 posters above me.

The problem its not the opinion. Anyone has their own opinion and its ok.

Its the blatant generalization. I mean if transition/surgery/etc its not for you... it doenst mean its wrong and not right for everyone.

I believe everyone has their own road and its only up to them what path follow and where to stop.

and they have the right to define and name that road whatever they want.  Sounds to me that if someone saying an SRS vagina isn't the same as a real vagina upsets you so much, then perhaps underneath it all you feel this way and are struggling with accepting that for yourself.

Sorry, but given the option... I'd take have a natal one anyday as I'm pretty sure about 99.9% of you would as well.  After all, I don't know anyone who likes spending that kinda money and going through that kinda pain to get something that shoulda just been given to us.

Quote from: Ashley315 on April 18, 2009, 06:52:38 AMthen perhaps underneath it all you feel this way and are struggling with accepting that for yourself.

Nope, just that I know life isnt perfect.

Quote from: Ashley315 on April 18, 2009, 06:52:38 AMSorry, but given the option... I'd take have a natal one anyday as I'm pretty sure about 99.9% of you would as well.  After all, I don't know anyone who likes spending that kinda money and going through that kinda pain to get something that shoulda just been given to us.

Sigh, you really miss the point. I have seen that in some persons what you wrote its used as a excuse for not transitioning and/or getting surgery. Its a fear a put down. Its ok, things arent perfect and if you say what should have been given to you and others.

Well, like I was saying you missed the point of those that are intersex. The irony of my life its that when I finally started to question what my gender was much later realized no matter which one was I was still going to need HRT and surgeries.


Just please, dont generalize. If its right for you go for it. Whatever it is so you will be comfortable. But the comment of fakery its biased and hurtful.

For me its simple like this: since "normal" its something im not (and its just that) I know certain things wont change to what I wish it could change. But like with everything in this life. I accept what I cant change and face my life with all its challenges and move on.

Sigh.  You can't expect much from peeps that want to be non-op on a non-op board can you? Their opinions are "real" & "true" to them because that's what they believe.  The question is: do I give a flying monkey's a.... about what they say or believe?  No!

Well, I just wanted to state my opinion in a matter that its touchy to me. I did it and like I have say several times. To each their own.

Some people will never leave the "transgender" or "non-op" forums.  They've got no choice.  That's what they'll always be "transgender or non-op".  This space's for them to saturate themselves in their own agenda.  Can't believe I'm even posting here.

Quote from: Sabine on April 18, 2009, 09:12:25 AM
Some people will never leave the "transgender" or "non-op" forums.  They've got no choice.  That's what they'll always be "transgender or non-op".  This space's for them to saturate themselves in their own agenda.

Their Agenda? Being what?

Quote from: MiniarTheir Agenda? Being what?

What you've described all over this board.  that's what.  That's YOUR agenda.  THEIR agenda.

Quote from: Sabine on April 18, 2009, 09:28:13 AM
What you've described all over this board.  that's what.  That's YOUR agenda.  THEIR agenda.

I wasn't aware that I "had" an agenda. Care to explain what you mean?
Are you by any chance reading more into what I say than simply what I say?
Cause you know, that would be bad form.

I'm sure you've read my other post by now so no worries.

Listen everyone, I'm going to make this post and that it's, I'm going back to the PAIS sites and leave the LBGT community off to do what it is that they do.

Please don't take this offensive anyone, but I've come to the conclusion that I don't want to be generalized with the LBGT community. I have my reason for this and rather than offend anyone, I rather just say I think I wore out my welcome with the LBGT community.

I started this post strictly to the non-op's out there that are creating youtube video's and going out into the community and making blanket statement that anyone who has had SRS has an imitation vagina and that SRS is not perfect therefore they choose to be non-op because they can't give birth or menstruate each month.

This message is not intended for those who are non-op for health reasons. There is a growing trend that a lot of trans-women love what's between their legs and feel no need to have SRS. That's fine with me if that is your decision. If you don't want to have SRS, that fine with me also. However, I cannot say that I have anything in common with a non-op trans-woman that loves her birth genitalia because I don't. I don't have any female friends or male friends that would love to have the opposite sex genitalia. In other words, I don't know one female that wants a penis and I don't know one male that wants a vagina. 

Now if you happen to be a woman who wants a penis or a man that wants a vagina, that's o.k. with me also. But please, don't start this propaganda that women who have had vaginoplasty either because they are transsexual, have vaginal agenisis or are PAIS like myself have less than what a woman who was born with a vagina has thus making it an imitation vagina.

With that said, I'm done with this. Thank you for posting and responding.

Quote from: JasmineG on April 18, 2009, 11:21:42 AM
There is a growing trend that a lot of trans-women love what's between their legs and feel no need to have SRS. That's fine with me if that is your decision. If you don't want to have SRS, that fine with me also.

Sorry you're leaving Jasmine!

I'm non-op and have no agenda. I don't want SRS, but it isn't because I love what's between my legs. I can basically tolerate it, at least for the time being...

Z

Quote from: Sabine on April 18, 2009, 09:12:25 AM
Some people will never leave the "transgender" or "non-op" forums.  They've got no choice.  That's what they'll always be "transgender or non-op".  This space's for them to saturate themselves in their own agenda.  Can't believe I'm even posting here.

Oh god.. we have another one of those "I'm in a higher place than you because I have a vagina" people in here. Get a clue please.  You will always be just as transgendered as any non-op no matter what you call yourself.  None-ops are by far not stuck anywhere and in some regards are far more enlightened and realistic than you will ever be.

For the record.. I will be post op soon enough.  My point was, (and it's often missed by those of lower IQ), that everyone has the right to say what they want about things.  It's only insulting if you are so weak minded that you allow something so trivial as someones opinion hurt your ego that much. 

What is this crap about "There is a growing trend that a lot of trans-women love what's between their legs and feel no need to have SRS".  I really fail to believe that this is even remotely the case.  Anyone trans person who  "loves" the penis they are born with are probably not transgendered and instead are people who have taken a fetish or way of life way to far.

Trans people need to get over themselves.. Drama queens..... I see why the general populace can't accept us now. We b#tch and moan to much about nothing.

Please  feel free to try and burn me at the stake for my post.... I know it's coming, but you know what?  The best part about being me.... I really don't give 2 rats butts what anyone else thinks about me except one person in this world and she loves me 100%.  Everyone else can DIAF for all I care.

I'm not going to burn you at the stake.  I'm going to quote you for truth:

Quote from: Ashley315 on April 18, 2009, 06:53:35 PM
Anyone trans person who  "loves" the penis they are born with are probably not transgendered and instead are people who have taken a fetish or way of life way to far.

Truth be told though.  We don't have to go too far to find those peeps do we?  Look around & you'll find posts on here where some peeps proudly announce to the world that they love what they've got down there.  How wrong are they in the wrong body then?  Beats me! ~shrug~

Quote from: Leslie on April 18, 2009, 08:24:09 PM
I'm not going to burn you at the stake.  I'm going to quote you for truth:

Truth be told though.  We don't have to go too far to find those peeps do we?  Look around & you'll find posts on here where some peeps proudly announce to the world that they love what they've got down there.  How wrong are they in the wrong body then?  Beats me! ~shrug~

I've never seen one person that "loves" their penis.  There are some that tolerate it, but that is a far cry from "loving" it as you all put it.  I believe given the choice, any of them would rather be born a natal female.  That makes them the same as you or me... no matter why they choose to keep what they were given from birth.

I try not to let words bother me and if someone pushes it to the point of trying to bother me, my usual response is "Up yours"  :laugh: Different people will do what works for them. OK, no-ones wrong for that unless it harms another. So don't get yourselves worked up on who is pre-op, post-op or non-op. Unless you want trouble from the special-ops (just kidding) The point is... everyone get along and be respectful of each other

(I know this analogy is a bit of a push, but bear with me.)
Try to see it like movies.
We all have our individual tastes and opinions and just because someone likes the original more than the remake doesn't mean it's "better" or that the remake somehow isn't ever as good as the original, it's a matter of that person's personal taste and opinion.

I myself am a touch of a purist in this aspect. I would never feel as if the constructed penis available to me would ever be as good for/to me as an original would be and that is my opinion, not a reflection on the whole of the trans-community.

Just like I tend to sometimes like the original movie, for it's originality of concept and the like, over a remake, whereas others think that the acting, special effects, and overall look of a remake can be far better, making the remake something better than the original. It's all just a matter of personal taste.

There are, I suspect, people who say what Jasmine reports, that SRS results in a "fake" vagina, but who would be offended by people who call them "fake" women. That's hypocritical. The words "artificial" and "fake" are putdowns. Using them legitimizes discrimination against all transgendered people. It may be an honest opinion, but it's about as helpful as the opinion of those who dissociate themselves from other trans people. Look, we often expand our definitions. Sometimes that's a good thing.

If it's your opinion -- and frankly, I share this opinion -- that SRS doesn't give you something you can call a "real" vagina, simply state what you feel is "not real" about it, and why that affects your decisions. Don't use the words "unnatural," "fake," and "artificial." They are value-laden slurs. Instead say, "SRS can't fix the problem that I can never bear children, and that is what is important to me," or "I am uncomfortable with using surgury to correct cosmetic problems," or "I don't want to bother with the trouble of dilation," or all of the above, or whatever your particular issue is. See how that's more precise and less judgmental?

Quote from: Ashley315 on April 18, 2009, 06:53:35 PM
Oh god.. we have another one of those "I'm in a higher place than you because I have a vagina" people in here. Get a clue please.  You will always be just as transgendered as any non-op no matter what you call yourself.  None-ops are by far not stuck anywhere and in some regards are far more enlightened and realistic than you will ever be.

For the record.. I will be post op soon enough.  My point was, (and it's often missed by those of lower IQ), that everyone has the right to say what they want about things.  It's only insulting if you are so weak minded that you allow something so trivial as someones opinion hurt your ego that much. 

What is this crap about "There is a growing trend that a lot of trans-women love what's between their legs and feel no need to have SRS".  I really fail to believe that this is even remotely the case.  Anyone trans person who  "loves" the penis they are born with are probably not transgendered and instead are people who have taken a fetish or way of life way to far.

Trans people need to get over themselves.. Drama queens..... I see why the general populace can't accept us now. We b#tch and moan to much about nothing.

Please  feel free to try and burn me at the stake for my post.... I know it's coming, but you know what?  The best part about being me.... I really don't give 2 rats butts what anyone else thinks about me except one person in this world and she loves me 100%.  Everyone else can DIAF for all I care.

???

Excuse me? What's with the attitude? Are you implying that anyone who disagrees with you has a low IQ?

And what do you mean that it's only insulting if you're weak-minded? Gee, I guess I'm weak-minded because I find posts by anti-trans bigots on news articles about Angie Zapata to be insulting. Or are you saying that nothing is insulting? When someone says they're insulted by something you say, try to have a little empathy and understand why.

I gather you didn't like what she said and you were offended. You don't have to respond in kind.

Not offended by far...  I don't get offended.  I just found it rather pointless and childish and rather like trying to force other people to believe what she believes.  If I want to call your vagina an imitation.. that is my right.  If I don't think it's as good as a natal woman's.. that is my right.

People who let other peoples opinions of things upset them that much are weak minded.  Get over it already people.  "someone called my vagina imitation..... I spent 40k to get it.... therefore everyone must respect it"   BOO HOO... cry to someone who really cares..  There are far more important things to be upset over other than someones opinion of your vagina.  Vagina's are not the center of the universe you know?  Many people get through life without one and live happy productive lives.

I don't care if people disagree with me Alyssa.   That is their right.. It's also well within my right to think of them as being less intelligent for their opinions as it is theirs to think the same of me.  It won't phase me one bit.  Like I said.. I don't care what some on line persons' opinion of me is.

When I see a stupid pointless post like the one started here, I will however call them out on it.  None of us have any right to say what someone else can and can't do providing they are not physically harming them.  This politically correct crap needs to go away.

Quote from: Ashley315 on April 19, 2009, 03:24:06 PM
Not offended by far...  I don't get offended.  I just found it rather pointless and childish and rather like trying to force other people to believe what she believes.  If I want to call your vagina an imitation.. that is my right.  If I don't think it's as good as a natal woman's.. that is my right.

People who let other peoples opinions of things upset them that much are weak minded.  Get over it already people.  "someone called my vagina imitation..... I spent 40k to get it.... therefore everyone must respect it"   BOO HOO... cry to someone who really cares..  There are far more important things to be upset over other than someones opinion of your vagina.  Vagina's are not the center of the universe you know?  Many people get through life without one and live happy productive lives.

I don't care if people disagree with me Alyssa.   That is their right.. It's also well within my right to think of them as being less intelligent for their opinions as it is theirs to think the same of me.  It won't phase me one bit.  Like I said.. I don't care what some on line persons' opinion of me is.

When I see a stupid pointless post like the one started here, I will however call them out on it.  None of us have any right to say what someone else can and can't do providing they are not physically harming them.  This politically correct crap needs to go away.

Now you see why I say I'm done with the Transsexual/Transgender community and want nothing to do with people known as such?

For the record, I'm intersexed. I'm not transsexual by definition. My medical records say I'm intersexed. Personally speaking, I don't care what any transsexaul/transgendered man or woman says about me. What I do have a problem with is when people try to lump me into a group clearly I don't belong too. My point was clearly to say watch what you say because your lumping me or other transexuals girls who have had vaginoplasty could be offensive when you start to call people body parts imitation and fake.

Now before I say anything to insult you or the Transgendered/transsexual community, I'm going to do what most my friends who are intersexed do and that is stay away from the LBGT community. I'm not gay and I'm not transgendered I really don't have a reason to try to be apart this group. I considered myself at one point to be intersexed transsexual and now I feel as though I've made the wrong decision to even add the term transsexual to my identity.

I apologize to anyone that became offended because I asked people to mind their words. So, if you don't mind, I'll just excuse myself from this group of people.

Peace,

Jasmine

Not this one again! ;D

OK, here's mine for what it's worth... I simply prefer to have something natural, whatever that may be, rather  than something not natural. Same goes with breast implants, simply wouldn't want them or want to go out with anyone who had them... Human bodies are nice for me when they are natural, I include hormonally changed ones in that definition.

Let the flaming begin! ;)

Quote from: imaz on April 19, 2009, 06:09:38 PM
Human bodies are nice for me when they are natural, I include hormonally changed ones in that definition.

Hormonally challenged! I like that!  ;D

Z

Quote from: Zythyra on April 19, 2009, 06:20:17 PM
Hormonally challenged! I like that!  ;D

Z

That was "changed"... Freudian slip? ;)

Steady now! I have DSM-IV-TR just 150cm from my keyboard! ;D

Hi everyone,

I locked this topic. I don't think the conversations have been particulalry constructive. Some of the comments have been rather personal and in some cases people have been left feeling hurt or insulted.

I have deleted Jasmine for violations of the terms of service and for being just plain argumentative...

9. If you disagree with transgender individuals, or activities which cross gender boundaries take your arguments to a more appropriate web site.

10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

    * Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
    * Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

15. You may challenge the issue, but never people or groups.

She is welcome to recreate her account, but she must get rid of the boulder sized chip on her shoulder before doing so. If she comes back and acts like she did before she will be promptly re-deleted without warning.