Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Found guilty of 1st degree murder, bias-motivated crime, car theft, and ID theft. 
Sentencing later today.  Sounds like it's automatic life in prison.

Read about it  here  (http://www.greeleytribune.com/article/20090422/NEWS/904229946/1051&ParentProfile=1001)

oops I made another post about it before I saw this one. This is good news in a sad, sad case.

another article here: http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/19250317/detail.html (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/19250317/detail.html)

Rest in peace, dear sweet child.  (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cosgan.de%2Fimages%2Fmore%2Fflowers%2F068.gif&hash=51c2bbc87db4bd3d126b923c4f9ea2ac70800165)

May the poor kid rest in peace. :)

My God does that man look one mean b*****d. At least there wasn't a death sentence, capital punishment really is something barbaric.

The jury was only in deliberation for two hours. The transpanic defense didn't have any legs.

"River going to take me, sing sweet and sleepy,
sing me sweet and sleepy all the way back home.
It's a far gone lullaby, sung many years ago.
Mama, mama many worlds I've come since I first left home."

Blessed Be, Angie

Yes, it means life in prison, no possibility for parole.
The judge already handed down the sentence.

capital punishment really is something barbaric.

Thank GOD then he wasn't judged under Shria Law then hun?

I can only hope that he lives a long and depressing life in a box.  My tax dollars happily at work.

Rest now, my child.

I would take your name as a testimony to your life.

But I am not worthy of it.

-Sandy

R.I.P Angie. May your family find closure.

and may andrade find a most kind and compassionate cell-mate to spend the rest of his life with.

that boy, if he has any brain cells would be wise to request being kept out of general population.

What could be an unintended outcome here is the open-and-shut nature of his "defense." There wasn't much that wasn't torn apart by the prosecution beforehand, making the entire "trans-panic" stuff in this case much less firm than it may have been in last year's Kellie Tellesford case in Britain. In point of fact "trans-panic" wasn't used in GB, the fact that she was trans was played on and the jury had the chance to allow their own prejudices to work overtime in making sure that man walked with the chance that in her depair over being robbed she had asphixiated herself trying to masturbate.

In this case there was the incontrovertible "proof" that about 36 hours before he killed her he'd heard in court that her name was "Justin" legally. And in her case there was some pretty ample testifying that she was pretty open about her transition with men she dated. Plus there was that pink vibrator that Allen Ray had left beside the body after having it apparantly used by someone at the scene on his body.

I don't think this case has as firmly nailed the coffin shut on "trans-panic" as some commentators would like to think.

I'm glad he was convicted and I'm glad they tacked on the hate-crime designation to boot. But from all the reports I have seen this case was rather weakly defendable and without the "reasonable doubt" factors that could well come in other cases. I don't think we are done, quite yet, with "trans-panic."

Nichole

Quote from: Nichole on April 23, 2009, 12:31:56 AM
What could be an unintended outcome here is the open-and-shut nature of his "defense." There wasn't much that wasn't torn apart by the prosecution beforehand, making the entire "trans-panic" stuff in this case much less firm than it may have been in last year's Kellie Tellesford case in Britain. In point of fact "trans-panic" wasn't used in GB, the fact that she was trans was played on and the jury had the chance to allow their own prejudices to work overtime in making sure that man walked with the chance that in her depair over being robbed she had asphixiated herself trying to masturbate.

In this case there was the incontrovertible "proof" that about 36 hours before he killed her he'd heard in court that her name was "Justin" legally. And in her case there was some pretty ample testifying that she was pretty open about her transition with men she dated. Plus there was that pink vibrator that Allen Ray had left beside the body after having it apparantly used by someone at the scene on his body.

I don't think this case has as firmly nailed the coffin shut on "trans-panic" as some commentators would like to think.

I'm glad he was convicted and I'm glad they tacked on the hate-crime designation to boot. But from all the reports I have seen this case was rather weakly defendable and without the "reasonable doubt" factors that could well come in other cases. I don't think we are done, quite yet, with "trans-panic."

Nichole

I agree Nichole. The prosecution did a good job of diffusing it with the evidence that he knew ahead of time. It still leaves the door open for those who don't. I hope, though, it's a baby step in that direction and that it will be used as precedent in that way. The prosecution had to lead that evidence to get the most solid conviction, but it doesn't go all the way to nuking that defence, by far. As a defence lawyer, I'd be distinguishing the case saying that it's different because my client didn't know ahead of time. If I would defend this sort of thing, which I wouldn't.

Dennis

Quote from: Virginia Marie on April 23, 2009, 12:46:41 AM
I am fairly certain that Mr. Andrade will rather quickly realize the weight of such a crime and soon be going by Ms. Andrea. Maybe that will help him/her better understand the feelings of his/her victim.

That really doesn't seem like a productive line of discussion.

I'm sorry, I just don't have much sympathy for murderers. What would you like to discuss?

Quote from: Virginia Marie on April 23, 2009, 01:10:49 AM
I'm sorry, I just don't have much sympathy for murderers. What would you like to discuss?

I'm not asking you to have sympathy for him -- I could care less about what happens or does not happen to him in prison -- my concern is for us.  If we are going to learn anything from people who have fought discrimination and hatred before us, it is that reacting to hatred with hatred will only cause *us* more problems and prolong our struggle.

Quote from: Virginia Marie on April 23, 2009, 01:48:05 AM
Understandable, Being someone who has been discriminated against all my life and has come under attack several times I've noticed that sometimes fighting fire with fire works and other times it doesn't. But if we don't stand up for ourselves, who will? We all need to stand together. Also, I don't allow myself to hate others. It's just common knowledge as to what happens in prison

Yes, well, I guess prison is it's own subject.  America has something of a punishment complex that I strongly disagree with.  But there's a difference between fighting fire with fire, and finding satisfaction in other people's pain, whether we think it's deserved or not.  Andrade did what he did and now he goes to prison.  It's too late to fight fire with fire with him.

I'm not much into religion, but I think I'll say a prayer for Angie

Quote from: Nichole on April 23, 2009, 12:31:56 AM
I don't think this case has as firmly nailed the coffin shut on "trans-panic" as some commentators would like to think.

I'm glad he was convicted and I'm glad they tacked on the hate-crime designation to boot. But from all the reports I have seen this case was rather weakly defendable and without the "reasonable doubt" factors that could well come in other cases. I don't think we are done, quite yet, with "trans-panic."

Nichole

I agree.
This was more open and shut murder than a trans-panic test.

Quote from: Nichole on April 23, 2009, 12:31:56 AMI don't think this case has as firmly nailed the coffin shut on "trans-panic" as some commentators would like to think.

I'm glad he was convicted and I'm glad they tacked on the hate-crime designation to boot. But from all the reports I have seen this case was rather weakly defendable and without the "reasonable doubt" factors that could well come in other cases. I don't think we are done, quite yet, with "trans-panic."

Agreed.  Andrade and his 'defense' were their own worst enemies.  And while I'm relieved and grateful that Andrade had the book thrown at him on all counts, I'm under no illusion that 'trans panic' is dead. 

If Angie had not been so demonstrably open about her transness, the trans-panic defense would have found traction. 

In the comments section there was a LOT of support for the whole 'Trans as liars/deceivers' meme, which the evidence of Angie's forthcomingness diffused.  Andrade's defenders actually started backing away from their early positions and deciding that he did not deserve to receive clemency.

But that did little to diffuse the 'Justin is a MAN!!! (Dammit!)' meme.  That one did not get significantly reduced.

We trans are still damned if we do, and damned if we don't. 

If we go stealth and are subsequently found out and killed, the trans-panic defense will be effective, and our killers will get off with minimal punishment.

If we are routinely forthcoming, we can still be targeted by the engaging psychopath who sees us as more disposable than a 'straight, law-abiding school teacher', and perhaps because we were so forthcoming he'll get the full punishment for killing us -- but that doesn't change the fact we're dead.

=K

He's getting what he deserves. His actions seemed very premeditated.

quite a lot of activity in this thread while I was ummm.... watching TV last night. 

First off, I have a bit of a problem with the insinuation that Andrade will get raped in prison and deserve it.  Maybe he does deserve it.  But I don't think that we should want that for him, no matter how much he hurts anyone of us, no matter what he did.  Not to get argumentative about it, mostly just because I don't want to, but I see that as stooping to the level of hatred for the other.  I think we're all better than that.  Feel free to disagree, but that's my two cents. 

@Tekla: I think we're very lucky he wasn't judged under Sharia law-- he probably wouldn't have even been arrested.  Although, I must confess I am rather ignorant; maybe Sharia law protects trans people. 

Agreeing with Nichole and others about trans-panic probably not being a dead dog.  At least not completely.  I'm sure someone will trot it out. 
I watched most of the trial through the live feed on CNN, and some of it was impossible to listen to.  There was a lot of blaming the victim, and a lot of talk about Angie deceiving people over her biological sex.  It sounds like she was very open and out, but I'm sure we'll be seeing trans-panic used again, especially if the victim is stealth. 

I do see a few positive things about all of this:
The jury returned a conviction in under two hours.  Either the good people of the great state of Colorado are less prejudiced than the people who live next door to me here in sunny southern California, or they didn't let their own bias get in the way of sending a murderer to jail.  Either way, good for them.  I think the prosecution did a really good job of pointing out that a 'reasonable person' would have walked away, not beaten someone to death.  That type of rational argument makes a lot more sense.  That, if anything, will do more to put 'trans-panic' away as a defense than anything else. 

Also, the prosecutor made a great point in his closing argument-- are trans people supposed to carry a sign around or something?  The prosecutor was basically just arguing against Angie being deceptive, but I thought it was a very well crafted point.  There's a fine line between being out and inviting hate and violence, and being so deeply stealth that you incite hate and violence. 

The press in the mainstream media has been overwhelmingly positive.  Sure there are problems with using the 'really a man, whose name was Justin'-meme, but I think that's mostly out of ignorance.  A few articles I saw talked about Angie, called her a transgender woman, and used female pronouns.  Fairly impressive.  Miles and miles to go, but I think this is progress.  Sharon Dunn, a reporter for the Greeley Tribune live-tweeted and reported on the trial each day, and was very professional. 

Autumn Sandeen from Pam's House Blend live-tweeted and reported on the ground in Greeley for the whole thing.  She was a point of contact for several mainstream media outlets during the course of the trial, which I think is awesome. 

Also, the 1st degree murder charge doesn't, IIRC the jury instructions clearly, require premeditation the way we think of it, but 'deliberation' I think was the word the prosecutor used.  Hitting someone with your fist would be a 'heat of the moment' but looking around for an object with which to bludgeon someone shows deliberation and intent to kill.  Deliberation can take just a few seconds, whereas the lesser charges, such as 2nd degree are primarily based on increasing levels of negligence or decreasing levels of intent to kill. 

The whole thing is incredibly sad.  While I believe that justice has been served for Angie, none of it will bring her back.  She's dead, and her family has to live without her.  :'( 

The creep will rot in prison. He'll meet some bf's there too. He deserves it. He's some scary looking bloke :icon_yikes:

He'll meet some bf's there too. He deserves it. He's some scary looking bloke

Think about the last part of that, which is true, and then ask, how likely is the first part?  Not very.  Plus the defense made a major effort to keep his gang stuff out of the trial, now, where he is going, that stuff is going to keep him alive and safe.  I'm sure he's already trying to join La Nuestra Familia or Sur 13 (Sureños) which pretty much has their say over the Hispanic population in the Colorado jails.

What we all find so horrible, so shocking on the outside, is street cred on the inside.  He's made his bones as the old line Vinnies and Guidos would have it.  Moreover he did it in a very violent and depraved manner.  Hell, he didn't shoot her (called a 'point and click' in some prison talk) he beat her to death with a fire extinguisher, and when it turned out that he didn't quite get her all the way dead, he picked up the fire extinguisher again, and beat her again and finished her off.  Do you want to try to rape him?  Really?

And, the gang's have the added bonus of him having a sentence without parole, which all of you find so swell, but corrections officers hate, because there is no law to hold him anymore, no change to get straight and get out.  He is a now a prison James Bond, with a license to kill.  So he kills another inmate, or a guard, what are they going to do?  Give him another life sentence?