Susan's Place Transgender Resources

This is a question inspired by Nicky's recent thread about androgynes as trans in denial: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59057.msg373163/boardseen.html#new (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59057.msg373163/boardseen.html#new)
Didn't want to hijack, so here goes.


I was wondering what possible motivators there would be for a person who's really trans to settle themselves into the androgyne camp.

Could it be fear of stigma?
For an androgyne could, in theory 'pass' as an ordinary cisgendered person. And even most trans people don't want to be trans. Nobody wants to have to medically alter their body. There is sort of a frankenstein feel to transsexual transition.

Could it be fear of losing family and friends?
Not an unheard of possibility.

Could it be the desire for normality?
Most people just want to fit in and be average, normal people.

Fear of change?
Being trans is a big step in a person's life, and physical changes are drastic.

Fear of 'boxes'?
The fear of being labeled and stereotyped accordingly?

Fear of transition not being fulfilling enough?

Discuss.

I'd say Fear of 'boxes'.

I don't feel fully at home in my male body. But, I don't think I'd feel fully at home in a female body, either.

Quote from: Nero on April 24, 2009, 12:46:19 PM
Nobody wants to have to medically alter their body. There is sort of a frankenstein feel to transsexual transition.

Heh. I've always found that aspect of it rather appealing. ;D

Quote
Fear of 'boxes'?
The fear of being labeled and stereotyped accordingly?

Yup. And after having tried both sides of the binary fence I've found that the "F" box is nearly as ill-fitting for me as the "M" box was.

Yeah, not a fan of boxes. 

Also...I think you could include that the effects of hormones can't be controlled.  I don't want to be a bear and I totally would be.  I like the pretty androgynous boys and that's what I want to look like. 

Good question...I'll have to think about it more...

Quote from: Jaimey on April 24, 2009, 05:19:20 PM
pretty androgynous boys

The prettiest are the ones who present as completely ambiguous. Oh, yeah.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on April 24, 2009, 05:33:51 PM
The prettiest are the ones who present as completely ambiguous. Oh, yeah.

I agree. Regardless of what their birth sex might be.

for me..

hesitance to make a realization that would cause more work than any other.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on April 24, 2009, 05:33:51 PM
The prettiest are the ones who present as completely ambiguous. Oh, yeah.

Agreed :)

As for the "Frankenstein feel to transition" I could not disagree more. It can be very beautiful and magical both for those going through it and those around them.

Quote from: imaz on April 24, 2009, 06:30:14 PM
Agreed :)

As for the "Frankenstein feel to transition" I could not disagree more. It can be very beautiful and magical both for those going through it and those around them.

I imagine it's kind of like a flower blooming and all the excess baggage falling away.

I think I qualify to answer this.  :D

For me, I repressed everything so much that I needed a place to stop and gather my thoughts before moving on. I couldn't make that jump in one move.

I also did not want all the extras that came with transition.

It's just kinda the Group W bench for the gender community.

"Kid, I want you to go and sit down on that bench that says Group W .... NOW kid!!"

And I, I walked over to the, to the bench there, and there is, Group W's
where they put you if you may not be moral enough to join the army after
committing your special crime, and there was all kinds of mean nasty ugly
looking people on the bench there.  Mother rapers.  Father stabbers.  Father
rapers!  Father rapers sitting right there on the bench next to me!  And
they was mean and nasty and ugly and horrible crime-type guys sitting on the
bench next to me. And the meanest, ugliest, nastiest one, the meanest
father raper of them all, was coming over to me and he was mean 'n' ugly
'n' nasty 'n' horrible and all kind of things and he sat down next to me
and said, "Kid, whad'ya get?"  I said, "I didn't get nothing, I had to pay
$50 and pick up the garbage."  He said, "What were you arrested for, kid?"
And I said, "Littering."  And they all moved away from me on the bench
there, and the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean nasty things, till I
said, "And creating a nuisance."  And they all came back, shook my hand,
and we had a great time on the bench, talkin about crime, mother stabbing,
father raping, all kinds of groovy things that we was talking about on the
bench.  And everything was fine, we was smoking cigarettes and all kinds of
things, until the Sargeant came over, had some paper in his hand, held it
up and said.

"Kids, this-piece-of-paper's-got-47-words-37-sentences-58-words-we-wanna-
know-details-of-the-crime-time-of-the-crime-and-any-other-kind-of-thing-
you-gotta-say-pertaining-to-and-about-the-crime-I-want-to-know-arresting-
officer's-name-and-any-other-kind-of-thing-you-gotta-say", and talked for
forty-five minutes and nobody understood a word that he said, but we had
fun filling out the forms and playing with the pencils on the bench there,
and I filled out the massacre with the four part harmony, and wrote it
down there, just like it was, and everything was fine and I put down the
pencil, and I turned over the piece of paper, and there, there on the
other side, in the middle of the other side, away from everything else on
the other side, in parentheses, capital letters, quotated, read the
following words:

("KID, HAVE YOU REHABILITATED YOURSELF?")

The question was what reasons are there for them to be in denial, I answered that for myself, I did not mean to imply that all are that way. (Though I do think a few people here might be)

Quote from: Nero on April 24, 2009, 12:46:19 PM
Could it be fear of stigma?

Well, yes, in some ways it makes it easier that people don't see me as trans. On the other hand, it also means being permanently in the closet, which is a source of stress on its own even though the door is open (that is, I'm willing to be open about my gender whenever someone cares to ask). Besides, in trans-centric situations, such as here, it often feels like I have less credibility as a non-op androgyne than I'd have if I presented myself as a pre-everything TS.

All in all, though, I'd have to say this isn't a big concern, especially as one of the main decisions I've made was to not care about how people gender me.

Quote
Could it be fear of losing family and friends?

Again, there is some truth to this, but it is not the main consideration. It's true in the sense that my being androgyne seems to make it possible to continue in the relationship I'm in, from the point of view of both of us; on the other hand, that's a nice consequence, not a cause. If I'd try to put off my transition out of fear of losing my family, I'd eventually start to resent that family for keeping me from doing what I need to, which would lead to losing them. I'm pretty sure I'm not doing that.

Quote
Could it be the desire for normality?

Depends on what you see as 'normal'. It's equally right to say that transitioning fully would be motivated by a desire for normality -- after all, a non-binary gender is usually considered less normal than the binary ones. From what I've seen, it's the transsexuals who want to be 'normal', androgynes are more likely to have various queer identities. As for myself, I've always thought I was normal anyway. :)

Quote
Fear of change?

This may be part of it, in the sense of fear of complications. I'm not afraid of the physical changes as such -- quite the opposite -- but my training and upbringing has involved enough 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' indoctrination that my plan in this respect is to go slowly and only as far as I have to.

Quote
Fear of 'boxes'?

Perhaps 'rebellion against' rather than 'fear of', or the realisation that neither set of stereotypes fits and the other set would be just as bad as the original one.

Quote
Fear of transition not being fulfilling enough?

See the previous point. :)

But really, I don't see transition the way regular transsexuals do, as switching from the old / externally imposed / incorrect legal gender / gender presentation to the new / internally motivated / correct one. For me, transition is a process of looking at everything I am, trying to see whether this is really me or part of the role I was taught to play, and throwing away as much of the bad and as little of the good as possible. The difference here is that I'm making a conscious effort to not care about how others see me (except in the sense of trying to keep the chance of getting mugged reasonably low), whereas a regular TS transition often seems to pay a lot of attention to passing.

I still don't think I'm in denial, though, just a little different.

  Nfr

Quote from: Nero on April 24, 2009, 12:46:19 PM
This is a question inspired by Nicky's recent thread about androgynes as trans in denial: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59057.msg373163/boardseen.html#new (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59057.msg373163/boardseen.html#new)

What about androgynes who do transition?

I think being not clearly ts and still transitioning is much harder than fitting neatly into a binary box.

Quote from: Nero on April 24, 2009, 12:46:19 PM
Nobody wants to have to medically alter their body. There is sort of a frankenstein feel to transsexual transition.

I'm not sure I understand this.  One could say there is a frankenstein feel to being born with the wrong body, but I don't see how medical transition can be seen as 'frankenstein'?  You're taking something that was wrong to begin with and taking corrective steps.  I certainly don't feel like I have a frankenstein body, it's a hell of a lot better than what I started out with, even with the scars and compromises.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to alter their body surgically if they did not need to. T.S. people feel the need to change it, it's not a want. The choice is to act on it or not.

If it was a want, there is a chance you could be talked out of it and you would not be suicidal. Hey I want that Ferrari, but even if I had billions, I could be talked out of it. Wanting rarely leads to suicide, except in the case of love.

I think by 'Frankenstein', they're referring to some people who are uncomfortable with non-natal genitalia.  I've read some references people have made to others who would rather keep the bits they were born with for whatever reasons...like an "if it's not natal, then I don't want it at all" attitude, for example.  That's my guess.  The OP didn't mean that having SRS is frankenstein-like.  (Just in case anyone was reading into it, because it looked like it might be heading that way)  They were wondering if the reason some people identify as androgyne pick that label because they don't want SRS.  That's my interpretation, anyway.

I wonder if other androgynes are as apathetic towards their body as me.  Mostly, I just don't care.  I know how it works, I don't like what my likely results from T would be, and honestly, I just don't hate my body.  To me, it's just flesh, just plumbing.  I'm far more concerned with how I'm perceived based on my personality/intellect than how I am perceived based on my looks (...that sentence is sort of convoluted...but I can't think of a way to say it exactly...)

yeah, me and my body have a live and live kind of deal going on.

I'm sorry, I don't really understand this thread... I am androgyne and try to look androgyne, so I'm more "TS" than "nonTS"...

Could it be fear of stigma?
I usually have long nail, wear nail polish, and sometimes if the mood strikes I go wearing a skirt, and not trying (too hard) to pass...

Could it be fear of losing family and friends?
It was a bit troublesome in the beginning, but in the end I was lucky to choose good people to begin with, and they've sticked around, which makes them all so much more valuable to me.

Could it be the desire for normality?
I despise the normal

Fear of change?
The status quo is boring, plus, with so many experiences to have in a life, how can I *not* want change ??

Fear of 'boxes'?
I despise boxes.

Fear of transition not being fulfilling enough?
This one sounds likely, because of the ideals of beauty we have now.

If I were to transition, I dont think much would change, except I'd have more fun showing off my boobs  >:-)

Quote from: Leslie Ann on April 25, 2009, 02:22:01 PM
I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to alter their body surgically if they did not need to.

Well, considering how big an industry plastic surgery is nowadays, I'm not so sure about this. But yes, I'd agree that 'wanting' SRS is not the same kind of 'wanting' as 'wanting' a face lift.

  Nfr

Good point. Though a lot of them have self esteem issues I think.

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on April 26, 2009, 01:48:26 AM
If I were to transition, I don't think much would change, except I'd have more fun showing off my boobs  >:-)

Hey!  Cut it out!  You want to poke somebody's eye out with those things?  Sheesh...kids and their toys...next you'll be sticking them in the freezer to see just how "bright" your headlights can get

Still...I know exactly what you mean.


As far as being in denial...HOW DOES ONE KNOW? 

It seems to me that most of the TS folks I have talked with know they are.  Chances are very good that if you have always thought you were a girl and somebody made a horrible mistake by giving you a male-configured body, there isn't a lot of doubt.

I would be very curious as to how many people in this forum never had a clue they were TS, and then one day a bolt of lightning from the sky struck them (figuratively) and they magically became transsexual with no warnings or buried feelings from their childhood finally coming to the surface.

I imagine that, while possible, this doesn't happen that frequently.  (Then again, I have been known to be terribly naive.)  Many will wait until later to act on it, for a variety of reasons, but those I've spoken to seem to have always known or at least had the feeling that something was terribly wrong.

I will also admit that I had never truly explored my transgendered status until later in life.  Oh, I have memories of wanting to be a girl (I also have memories of wanting to fly, so take that for what it is worth), but never any sense that I actually was one.  I still don't consider myself to be a girl.  Could that change in the future?  Anything is possible, and while I doubt that I will find I am TS, I've been through too much of life (and been wrong too often) to proclaim that it never will.

So, until such a time as my existence on earth has come to an end, I will continue through this journey called life, awaiting new and exciting discoveries around each corner (or just more of the same old boring stuff over and over and over).  The best I can do is to be honest about who I am as a person, (both to myself and to others), and strive to just be me...whoever and whatever that is. 

...Laurry

P.S.  Labels?  We don't need no stinking labels...

Quote from: Laurry on April 27, 2009, 02:40:01 PM


P.S.  Labels?  We don't need no stinking labels...

get lost in the post without 'em

Quote from: Pica Pica on April 27, 2009, 03:55:22 PM
get lost in the post without 'em

if you want to do something right, you have to do it yourself.

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on April 28, 2009, 03:59:49 PM
if you want to do something right, you have to do it yourself.

don't tell Simone that - works for UPS

I think that the androgynes that might be TS know it, but maybe androgyne is a safe spot to land while they work through their situation. To each his own.

As for the rest of us, like Gerry Rafferty said, "we're stuck in the middle with you". My male parts are ok but female parts would be about the same. An androgynous look might be cool, but not always. Some days feel girly, some days do not. No doubt here about being androgyne.

Here's a thought; we haven't discussed those who start down the TS path only to discover they are androgynes in denial. I've noticed some stop, some pause, and some continue down that path.

Pica, you are so right. Unlabeled boxes are carried directly to overgoods where they languish until someone claims them or they are sold at auction. So sad.

Far from the Nile,
S

Quote from: Simone Louise on April 29, 2009, 09:43:27 AM
Here's a thought; we haven't discussed those who start down the TS path only to discover they are androgynes in denial. I've noticed some stop, some pause, and some continue down that path.

I started on TS path, was there for a while before realizing that I was androgyne (and/or non-op transgender).

Z

Quote from: Zythyra on April 29, 2009, 11:39:35 AM
I started on TS path, was there for a while before realizing that I was androgyne (and/or non-op transgender).

Z

Same here, only coming on this site has made me begin to realise it. Not sure if it's really that or having found peace with my femininity having always been butch in some ways ;)

I started down the TS path, was all lined up with a gender counsellor and that when i realised it wasn't mine.

Quote from: Nero on April 24, 2009, 12:46:19 PM
I was wondering what possible motivators there would be for a person who's really trans to settle themselves into the androgyne camp.

For me it's like a womans psychology, body of a man=androgyne. I think androgyne is a good description, it's in the middle, you can do whatever you like. Makes things easier.

Quote from: Pica Pica on April 29, 2009, 02:04:37 PM
I started down the TS path, was all lined up with a gender counsellor and that when i realised it wasn't mine.

But then, you are the smart one. :)
It took me a year and a half of monthly counselling sessions to come to the same conclusion.

  Nfr

Could it be fear of stigma?

I'm currently read as a non-gender conforming female by most people.  Arguably there's a certain degree of  stigma there already.  More importantly, though, I have experienced all manner of stigmatisation for all manner of things--seizure disorder, mental illness, certain aspects of my faith, being a kinkster, being a switch... the list goes on.  Sometimes this has lead to harassment.  Sometimes--mercifully rarely--it's lead to violence.  Stigma is not a stranger to me.


Could it be fear of losing family and friends?

Anyone who would reject a person for being trans is no great loss.  I'd be perfectly happy to scythe away any undetected bigots in my orbit, including bigots I happened to share genetic material with.


Could it be the desire for normality?

Desire... for..?  Hah.  Haha.  AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

In all seriousness I guess I might present more towards the "masculine" end of the spectrum if I didn't have to worry about jobs, etc, but I already wear very androgynous clothes most days.  If I look female it's because my body betrays me, not my men's jeans or workboots.


Fear of change?

I've lived in 3 different countries in the last decade, and 4 cities.  I've gone from being a chaos magician to being a heathen.  I've gone from electronics engineering to teaching English.  I've taken initiation as a somaferan.  I've made untold changes to my life and will continue to do so.


Fear of 'boxes'?

Boxes?  Great!  Is it a little box you can put jewellery in, or a big one you can pretend is a spaceship?  Or a medium-sized one for biscuits or interesting rocks?

More seriously:  I hate the idea of being crammed into the "man" box.  I've spent a lot of time locked in the "woman" box, and I do't reckon the "man" box is a whole lot better.  It might be a little nicer to have a marginally-better-understood label to hang on myself, but only a little, and only marginally.


Fear of transition not being fulfilling enough?

Well, this makes more sense.  I mean, given that I'm an androgyne I doubt I'd feel particularly fulfilled as a man.  I want to stop hating the flesh I'm in, but that doesn't mean a full transition to male.  I'd like a more androgynous body, which in my case means more male-seeming, but not quite a man's body.

I'm not an androgyne because it is somehow more comfortable or safer than being fully male.  In fact I find it tearingly, wrenchingly uncomfortable.  I fought a long time before I would accept that identity, but in the end I was forced to accept that it is who I am. 


I have to say I'm a little piqued by the implications of this thread.  I mean, if people want to discuss "is androgyne a legitimate gender identity" then that's fine, but does the discussion always have to happen in the Androgyne Talk section?  I thought this was for androgynes to talk about being androgyne, not for other people to talk about us.

Quote from: Seshatneferw on April 30, 2009, 12:53:18 AM
But then, you are the smart one. :)
It took me a year and a half of monthly counselling sessions to come to the same conclusion.

  Nfr

well, in that case - you are the knowledgeable one. Cos you did some of the do, did you find anything to report in the process what could help the rest of us?

Hi Lokaeign.

QuoteI have to say I'm a little piqued by the implications of this thread.  I mean, if people want to discuss "is androgyne a legitimate gender identity" then that's fine,

Maybe I didn't word things right. This is a spin off from the other discussion about how some androgynes are in denial and vice versa. I didn't mean to imply that androgyne isn't a legit identity. Just was curious as to what could cause a transsexual to hide in the androgyne camp.
My apologies to anyone who thought I was saying something different.   :embarrassed:

Quote from: Nero on April 30, 2009, 09:12:23 AM

...Just was curious as to what could cause a transsexual to hide in the androgyne camp.

Come on Nero, 'fess up... You've realised that you're actually one of us... But trying to deny it?...;D ;)