Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Everything in our bodies can change, even late into life, except bones.  Why is this?

Every time I research about bones, they always say the same thing: "The common perception is that bones are static, when in reality that is far from the truth.  Bones are growing, shrinking, reshaping themselves all the time."

So why is it there's nothing that can be done about shoulders, hands, feet, hips if bones aren't static?  Or are they?  I'm a little confused.

I am not a fancy, smancy bone doctor (an orthopedic surgeon) but I know your basic bone structure stays with you your whole life. You'll shrink a bit when you are little old lady, but there's not much you can do about your skeleton as it is already.

Taking hormones now will help prevent your skeleton from the further masculinization that would otherwise occur in your late 20s/early thirties, but will not reverse the masculinization your bones already went through in puberty. Sorry. Most of us are in that same boat, hon. Don't let it worry you. Your hips will put on fat like a woman, and at 5'7" you're not going to stand out as abnormal amongst the XX women.

Before we're full grown, the ends of the bones have growth plates with softer (for bones) sort of spongy areas where the growth happens, AKA green bone.  After we're grown, the softer areas harden up and no longer grow.  The bones will store and loose calcium depending on diet and age, with greater calcium loss in later years,  But because the end growth plates are fused, no further (IE major) changes happen.

Beni

Quote from: ilikepotatoes on April 26, 2009, 07:00:42 PM
I am not a fancy, smancy bone doctor (an orthopedic surgeon) but I know your basic bone structure stays with you your whole life. You'll shrink a bit when you are little old lady, but there's not much you can do about your skeleton as it is already.

Taking hormones now will help prevent your skeleton from the further masculinization that would otherwise occur in your late 20s/early thirties, but will not reverse the masculinization your bones already went through in puberty. Sorry. Most of us are in that same boat, hon. Don't let it worry you. Your hips will put on fat like a woman, and at 5'7" you're not going to stand out as abnormal amongst the XX women.

Well being taller is in some respects better, because it diminishes the effect of a wide chest & shoulders.  That's the feature in me that bothers me the most.  If I wear thick clothing, I look like a normal girl my age, but as soon as I bring out the spring/summer tops, I can't stand how my appearance changes.  And since I tend toward being thin, the bones are really noticeable.  Especially the lower ribs that protrude.

I almost want to put on some weight so the ribs aren't visible.  It's kinda frustrating that I have put so much work into exercise and nutrition to have a good figure, but I have to hide it because the bones underneath can't change.

Quote from: Inanna on April 26, 2009, 05:58:14 PM
Everything in our bodies can change, even late into life, except bones.  Why is this?

Every time I research about bones, they always say the same thing: "The common perception is that bones are static, when in reality that is far from the truth.  Bones are growing, shrinking, reshaping themselves all the time."

So why is it there's nothing that can be done about shoulders, hands, feet, hips if bones aren't static?  Or are they?  I'm a little confused.

Because they're not changing all at once; it's a gradual process.  They say that every ten years, your skeleton is basically 'new,' but that means it's taken a full decade for all the cells to be replaced.  And when they are replaced, it's generally in the same spot they were in the first place.  New bone will grow in places that experience more stress, to add strength, and bone will leech away from places that hardly ever get real use, but the difference is [visually] miniscule and not at all apparent from the outside.  This is the type of change that happens.

Imagine you have a tower of interlocking blocks.  You can remove one block at a time, but each block must be replaced with a new one, and the new block goes directly into the hole the old block left.  Over time, the tower will begin to be made of more and more new blocks.. but it won't change its shape or size.  See?

Have you tried wearing scoop neck t-shirts? They are usually good at making your shoulders appear less wide, and are good summer clothing.






edited to remove link --- Nichole (see TOS, Rule 1)

Um, I swear my shoulders got smaller. Then again, that could be due to muscle loss -- so there is hope! They will appear to go down some that way. I know my height hand feet size have change (smaller). My hips have grown out -- yes, I got growing pains and it hurt!

so, I don't know, maybe your age can affect a few small things with your structure -- but so can change in muscle mass.

I wouldn't expect to be 5'7" if you're 6'3" or something, just small changes.  I'm 5"8' now and I used to be around 5"10'-11-ish (my licence still says 5'11" -- but I can't see myself ever being that tall!). I'm 5'8" last I measured, anyway, which is smaller. I don't know why. Muscle mass loss?

My feet size (in mens) was 10, but now (in mens) it's 8 -- yeah, I get a lot of skater shoes. I usually get 10 in womens, I can fit 9's, but I like 10's 'cause they are more comfy and I can slip them on and off. LOL I like the extra room. People think it's funny when I take off my shoes and my feel look way smaller. LOL  Also, ATM, my shoes add an extra inch to my height, so I shrink every time I take my shoes off. LOL

--natalie

The shoulder blades and rotator cuff are all supported by muscle.  My shoulders did retract a bit.  The bones are the same but lots of miscle loss so the shoulder bladed moved inboard oh and inch or so.  I've not measured but based it my a mototcycle jacket and rain jacket that are now tents on me at the shoulders

Beni

Quote from: gothique11 on May 01, 2009, 04:48:09 AM
Um, I swear my shoulders got smaller. Then again, that could be due to muscle loss -- so there is hope! They will appear to go down some that way. I know my height hand feet size have change (smaller). My hips have grown out -- yes, I got growing pains and it hurt!

so, I don't know, maybe your age can affect a few small things with your structure -- but so can change in muscle mass.

I wouldn't expect to be 5'7" if you're 6'3" or something, just small changes.  I'm 5"8' now and I used to be around 5"10'-11-ish (my licence still says 5'11" -- but I can't see myself ever being that tall!). I'm 5'8" last I measured, anyway, which is smaller. I don't know why. Muscle mass loss?

My feet size (in mens) was 10, but now (in mens) it's 8 -- yeah, I get a lot of skater shoes. I usually get 10 in womens, I can fit 9's, but I like 10's 'cause they are more comfy and I can slip them on and off. LOL I like the extra room. People think it's funny when I take off my shoes and my feel look way smaller. LOL  Also, ATM, my shoes add an extra inch to my height, so I shrink every time I take my shoes off. LOL

--natalie

Wow, really?  That's pretty amazing! :D

One question though.  I now see how shoulders and height could change, but how does shoe size?  Doesn't the foot have bone from end to tip?

There's a lot of fat and muscle in the feet, too, for padding. :) Plus, if you happen to lose weight, that could make you lose half a shoe size, too, just from less weight pressing down on them.

I lost an inch in 4 plus years of HRT (5'11" to 5'10").  I also lost 38 pounds of muscle in that period.  My feet and hands are wide and the same size.  My hips and rear remain small.  My rib cage remains large.  The percent body fat is high for what once was a lean weight for me. 

Bones grow continuosly during life but as most things they slow down with age. You are continually reabsorbing and forming new bone. The skeleton is far from static. Hormones affect skeletal growth and you will see changes. But no you will not go from 6" to 5" because of E. You may develop stronger ( a  lay term) bones if you are FtM on T. Because T slows calcium release from bones. But males both GG and TG on T (sorry for that term) can suffer from weak bones as they age. Guys don't usually don't learn this as they in the past have had a shorter life span.

Sorry Wendy I didn't adress your point. I think your decrease in size is due to muscle loss rather than bone loss. I am of course often wrong and cannot type to
save myself :laugh:
Love
Cindy James

Hi....  try this  .  you know what happens if you are put in  for having your bones lenghtened they brack them pull  them apart & they grow .. youll know what i am saying . other wise they are if you like set for life . i am not a heavy  set male /female   5 .9 .. 11 stone 14 waist 11 womens shoe size. i was a 16 waist for over 40 years my weight was as well.   4 years on h r t ... & body wise much the same ... at 61 ..just an idear .....& being andro .. may have helped as well . body mass not much change there ...just the hair lose   up top  . oh well tough.. other wise i am happy ... with who i am ..

  ...noeleena...

Quote from: gothique11 on May 01, 2009, 04:48:09 AM
Um, I swear my shoulders got smaller. Then again, that could be due to muscle loss -- so there is hope! They will appear to go down some that way. I know my height hand feet size have change (smaller). My hips have grown out -- yes, I got growing pains and it hurt!

so, I don't know, maybe your age can affect a few small things with your structure -- but so can change in muscle mass.

I wouldn't expect to be 5'7" if you're 6'3" or something, just small changes.  I'm 5"8' now and I used to be around 5"10'-11-ish (my licence still says 5'11" -- but I can't see myself ever being that tall!). I'm 5'8" last I measured, anyway, which is smaller. I don't know why. Muscle mass loss?

My feet size (in mens) was 10, but now (in mens) it's 8 -- yeah, I get a lot of skater shoes. I usually get 10 in womens, I can fit 9's, but I like 10's 'cause they are more comfy and I can slip them on and off. LOL I like the extra room. People think it's funny when I take off my shoes and my feel look way smaller. LOL  Also, ATM, my shoes add an extra inch to my height, so I shrink every time I take my shoes off. LOL

--natalie

wow that is amazing results, how did your hand size change? was it the muscle and soft tissue on the palms that reduced (this is my problem, otherswise I have long slender fingers so I hope I can get a similar results as yours) ? do your hands look more feminine now, how long on HRT did it take you to get these results?

I was just shy of 6' and now am 5' 10" and probably noticed around 6 months hrt when I measured so idk I think for it to happen that fast it must be a spinal curvature/muscle mass thing? The arm span is supposed to be the same as your height and my arm span is still almost 6 ft. , the old height.

Quote from: Jesslee on May 04, 2009, 01:49:22 AM
wow that is amazing results, how did your hand size change? was it the muscle and soft tissue on the palms that reduced (this is my problem, otherswise I have long slender fingers so I hope I can get a similar results as yours) ? do your hands look more feminine now, how long on HRT did it take you to get these results?

my hands were girly to begin with, but the skin got softer and they feminized a bit. I don't thing they really changed in size.

A lot of the size changes are muscle and fat changes.

after SRS, the main thing I found changing the most have been my hips. I've actaully got hips -- and now no pants that fit my hips! I really need to go shopping for new pants! LOL

--natalie

I would (almost) kill for girly hands.  I was looking at some pics I took yesterday and I feel like my hands really stick out (well, aside from my oversized boy-shaped head).  Today is not one of my confidence days :(.

Quote from: gothique11 on May 04, 2009, 03:58:57 AM
my hands were girly to begin with, but the skin got softer and they feminized a bit. I don't thing they really changed in size.

A lot of the size changes are muscle and fat changes.

after SRS, the main thing I found changing the most have been my hips. I've actaully got hips -- and now no pants that fit my hips! I really need to go shopping for new pants! LOL

--natalie

did the muscles (I mean on the palm area) in your hands reduce in size? sorry to be so nosey, but I am very curious about this.

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Post Merge: May 04, 2009, 02:54:00 AM

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Quote from: Ketsy on May 04, 2009, 04:33:09 AM
I would (almost) kill for girly hands.  I was looking at some pics I took yesterday and I feel like my hands really stick out (well, aside from my oversized boy-shaped head).  Today is not one of my confidence days :(.

dont feel so sad about the hands. look at these three pics of Uma Thurmans hands they are big (even for a guy) but they not very muscular and have a feminine appearance, so they look normal on her.

Also women have bigger heads (proportionally) than men do.


umathurman.ru/img/uma_thurman_3.jpg

noticiasdot.com/stilo/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/uma-thurman-swarovski-fashion-rocks.jpg

images.absolutenow.com/rp/6123_thurman_hannah_1.jpg









edited to remove links --- Nichole (See TOS, Rule 1)

Quote from: Jesslee on May 04, 2009, 05:38:14 AM
did the muscles (I mean on the palm area) in your hands reduce in size?

Also women have bigger heads (proportionally) than men do.

Jesslee I had a very strong grip.  I could open the pickle jars!  Now I hand the jars to my teenage daughter that has little hands.  I have little strength left.  I wanted to reduce my muscle mass and I was successful.  However my hand is still wide.

I was talking to a lady at work today that wants to go on weight watchers.  She told me she weighs 256 pounds.  I am a couple of inches taller than her and I weigh 175 pounds.  My fingers and hands were wider and thicker than hers.

I am starting to wonder if I will ever grow hips.

Quote from: Wendy on May 04, 2009, 08:44:18 PM
Jesslee I had a very strong grip.  I could open the pickle jars!  Now I hand the jars to my teenage daughter that has little hands.  I have little strength left.  I wanted to reduce my muscle mass and I was successful.  However my hand is still wide.

I was talking to a lady at work today that wants to go on weight watchers.  She told me she weighs 256 pounds.  I am a couple of inches taller than her and I weigh 175 pounds.  My fingers and hands were wider and thicker than hers.

I am starting to wonder if I will ever grow hips.

thanks for the reply, and sorry about hijacking this thread.

I understand that we cannot expect our bones to reduce in size and this  makes our hands look wide. I do not think it is only the width of the hands but also the muscle and tissue in and around the palms that makes the hands look big. If you look Uma thurman is a good example of a woman with wide yet feminine hands because she does not have the large amount of muscle in her hands.


I am just wondering if this musle in the palms of the hands reduces over time on hrt?

Quote from: Jesslee on May 04, 2009, 09:42:20 PM
I am just wondering if this musle in the palms of the hands reduces over time on hrt?

I've been on HRT for 4+ years.  My hands look smaller than they did.
My biceps were 15/16 inches and are now 12/13 inches; however my male shirt sleeve is 34/35 before and after.  My shoulder blades protrude and were once next to large deltoids.  The HRT will change you dramatically over time.  I've been told that very muscular males can take seven years to get to the muscle mass of  genetic females.  The endo told me I will change very little in muscle mass; however as I age I will lose muscle mass naturally if I do not exercise.  Yes your hands will look more feminine than they did before HRT.

Quote from: Wendy on May 05, 2009, 09:30:45 PM
I've been on HRT for 4+ years.  My hands look smaller than they did.
My biceps were 15/16 inches and are now 12/13 inches; however my male shirt sleeve is 34/35 before and after.  My shoulder blades protrude and were once next to large deltoids.  The HRT will change you dramatically over time.  I've been told that very muscular males can take seven years to get to the muscle mass of  genetic females.  The endo told me I will change very little in muscle mass; however as I age I will lose muscle mass naturally if I do not exercise.  Yes your hands will look more feminine than they did before HRT.

thank you Wendy for your answer, this is exactly what I have been wondering about. hopefully I can get similar results.