Susan's Place Transgender Resources

http://www.annelawrence.com/twr/2001hbigda2.html (http://www.annelawrence.com/twr/2001hbigda2.html)

thoughts?

I think she is, no doubt, correct. Personally, I see no reason for the RLE to be an unconditional requirement. Some people do quite well from the minute they drop their "act." Others "act" for years and never manage to "act" well enough to legitimately blend with their traget gender.

Yet, neither of those extremes appear to be significant markers of satisfaction and ability to live a contented life. Contentment usually comes through internal satisfactions and not necessarily external ones anyhow.

The RLE might be an indicator of how accepting others will be of how the personal will appear, act and be accepted in his or her target gender presentation, but it certainly doesn't seem to be a marker for how content the person will be in his or her target gender.

So, in this case, I'd have to say I agree with Dr. Lawrence.

Nichole

Isn't the one year a guide, not a requirement, just like the 3 months for hormone standard?

Regardless of post-surgical outcomes, I think RLE can be just as detrimental as it can be beneficial. Particularly if a transperson isn't on hormones, forced RLE could just result in the person being overly criticized on the basis of his/her gender nonconformity. I suppose the assumption of most therapists is that if you can get through the possible persecution inherent in RLE, you can overcome anything... but I wonder if the possible psychological torment is worth it.

SD

Quote from: Leslie Ann on April 27, 2009, 05:28:48 PM
Isn't the one year a guide, not a requirement, just like the 3 months for hormone standard?

I was just reading this part today.  It is a 'requirement' but no one is going to hunt your therapist down if they decide you're ready ahead of time (as it seems many did in the article).

"Paper presented at the XVII Harry Benjamin International Symposium on Gender Dysphoria, Galveston, TX, November 4, 2001"


First notice the date, 11/04/2001. Thats seven and a half years ago!!!

Which to me would suggest that if anything old restrictive rules shoud probably be more relaxed.

In researching Thai SRS surgeons, Suporn noteably, they seem to set a minimum of 6 months RLE. Provided that the patient has been on HRT min 6 mnths, preferrably one year.

That makes sense to me. Two too three months therapy, than HRT. Take HRT for a few months in preparation for RLE. Also laser/electroylsis takes a while to overcome facial hair problems.

The interesting thing using the above is that one would still be waiting about  one to two years to be eligible for SRS letters. However the problems of early RLT could be avoided.

Probably more conduceive to "stealth" as well.

Mich'

RLE.

As if.

If you wanna be a chick, or you wanna be a dude, then you should just do it.  You shouldn't need some stupid therapist with some stupid liability issues and some stupid, "standards of care" bullcrap to motivate you to get out and do what you've been whining about not being able to do for your entire life.

If you can't even do that, then you might as well not even bother.

Because if you telling yourself isn't good enough, then who are you going to be once it's all said and over with?  You?  Or someone some stupid therapist made and modeled after a, "standards of care" procedure?  Just another model of society I guess...

I'm with Annwyn here.  There seems to be a great need for people to have their hand held and a map laid out.  Really, if your at the edge of a huge cliff - as many seem to think they are - you step off and either something will catch you, or you'll learn to fly.  If you do that real life thing first, you'll find you can cut all that other stuff down to almost nothing.

I'm fulltime and haven't even seen a therapist yet:-p  And I'm not on mones so...


-giggle-


All this junk about RLE and stuff just seems to go right over my head, because I really think it's all just a way for them to suck more money out of YOUR insecurities.

I didn't do a minute of RLE. I waited till I was post-surgery and on T for 9 months before I leapt the fence. I couldn't bear the thought of people seeing me as a masculine woman any longer or any more than they already did.

I think the RLE thing might be a very individual thing and vary between people for whom hormones might make a big difference and those who are going to have to struggle with the effects of their birth hormones on their body. For me, I couldn't stand binding, couldn't stand being reminded I had those things on my chest, and that my face looked feminine. When I got the man-bags removed and started looking like a guy, albeit a young guy, I could assume my natural role in society. I can see RLE being a requirement before genital surgery, but really I think the whole guidelines were developed with MtF's in mind and we FtM's were an afterthought. Cause who gets a phallo before hormones? And they won't do a meta before hormones.

I don't think it's well thought through at all. It was like someone said "hey, there's people going the other way, maybe we should make up some crap for them." For FtM's, at least they made it therapy or RLE, but really RLE is pretty damned irrelevant to us imo, except for the younger guys who can still pass cause, well, they're young enough that androgyny is doable and you just have to give social cues like dressing or haircut. For a 40 year old, that doesn't work.

Dennis

Possibly RLE is meant to be a help and a guide of sorts. But it seems to be more of a pain in something something and an extra expense. Let alone it is difficult enough for many to afford srs. But you have to jump through the hoops and convince two other people for a year or more. Then if they didn't bleed you dry you might be able to schedule an appointment. Often I see the RLE folks as the troll at the bridge who wont let you cross until they get paid  :P

I think the people who think they need, or want it, just do it.  After all, no need for the rest if your not sure, and if your just not sure, you can sure as hell do it yourself.

I'm going to bite my tongue here, because I don't want to be the one who starts the fight (but I sure want to at the moment).

Yeah, there's a certain vibe going....

I mean, I agree that a mandatory 1 year RLE is not necessarily helpful to everyone, but the 'just do it' approach isn't going to work for everyone either.

As in most things there will be a spectra of conditions, feelings and responses. I thought it interesting that the good Dr mentioned that there appeared little use for RLE in the 'mature' age group. Not really suprising as we have been putting up with the crap for a life time.
I remember a recent study on SRS in puberty with a 5yr follow up (sorry I'll have to find these references) that demonstrated excellent outcome. From memory no one wanted to revert and none had regrets. Sorry again but I think it was all MtFs.

I do vividly remember reading a psychology book in the 60's that went into TG; it was very mixed up and TG (MfF only was mentioned, dudes sorry there) was considered an extreme form of transvestism. The RLE was discussed as a means to cure the fetish (not my words). It also seemed obvious to me that the author was TV from some of the "case studies". They were very sexual and had lots of female domination and forced CD. Not very scientific.

Is it still regraded that way? I don't know.

Also at that time surgery was relatively crude. So the post SRS may not have reflected the desired outcome. But again I don't quite see how RLE would change that.

I was interested in the comments about employment and the need to save money while continuing employment. I didn't quite follow the logic. If I go to work tomorrow as a chick with a dick, or take some leave and have SRS and then go to work as a chick without a dick, how is that going to affect my employment? Using MtF purely as an example.

Interested in what any of the guys think.
All in all I think the experts in GID are us. We have to educate the people we need to treat us.

Cindy James
Sitting on the fence hoping it will have the desired affect

I've been wanting to say this for a while: I love that blue top in your new picture :).

Why thank you  :-* :-*

I bought it at the Melbourne markets a few years ago, It's really comfy. I wore it when I came out to my family: Bro's and sisters' in law.
I was wearing 3" heels as well as the same skirt. I made the skirt and I still like it. I got a few comments; SIL one, your gorgeous. SIL2, I've known for years and a big kiss. BIL1, aren't high heels bad for your back.
? BIL2, you look like a woman and not a Drag Queen. (men!!)

What is funny it shows my Adams Apple yet in public no one has ever mentioned it. Most of the guys just look at my boobs.

You take care and if you ever need to talk pm me

Love Cindy James

I really don't understand what all the problem is with living RLT/RLE!  If a person is what they profess to be then what's the big deal.  Folks here have stated that it's quite easy to fool therapists into believing that a person is TS, and no doubt some do, therefore one could see RLE/RLT as confirmation.  Transition has nothing to do with acting like a man/woman, after all good actors do it all the time in the entertainment industry;  It's not about dressing; It's not about passing it's about being able to live in the gender a person is.  These things after all are guidelines similar and wouldn't most people want to be sure they knew all the pitfalls, implications, consequences etc. etc. of what lay ahead.

A person is going to be living that life after transition anyway, so whats a year of practice going to hurt.  Hey if you are who you say you are then RLE/RLT will be no problem, it's those who have doubts, uneasy feelings who seem to complain the most.  If you say you are a man or a woman then just live that way, what the hell is the problem boys and girls, don't like big brother interfering, get over it, big brother has far more rules a regulations, hoops and hurdles for you to jump through in your future lives.

-={LR}=-

P.S. Personally I wouldn't give Lawrence the time of day - See:

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Bailey/BIID/BIID.html (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Bailey/BIID/BIID.html)

Quote from: Ladyrider on April 28, 2009, 06:06:19 AM
I really don't understand what all the problem is with living RLT/RLE!  If a person is what they profess to be then what's the big deal.  Folks here have stated that it's quite easy to fool therapists into believing that a person is TS, and no doubt some do, therefore one could see RLE/RLT as confirmation.  Transition has nothing to do with acting like a man/woman, after all good actors do it all the time in the entertainment industry;  It's not about dressing; It's not about passing it's about being able to live in the gender a person is.  These things after all are guidelines similar and wouldn't most people want to be sure they knew all the pitfalls, implications, consequences etc. etc. of what lay ahead.

A person is going to be living that life after transition anyway, so whats a year of practice going to hurt.  Hey if you are who you say you are then RLE/RLT will be no problem, it's those who have doubts, uneasy feelings who seem to complain the most.  If you say you are a man or a woman then just live that way, what the hell is the problem boys and girls, don't like big brother interfering, get over it, big brother has far more rules a regulations, hoops and hurdles for you to jump through in your future lives.

-={LR}=-

P.S. Personally I wouldn't give Lawrence the time of day - See:

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Bailey/BIID/BIID.html (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Bailey/BIID/BIID.html)

quoted for truth!

also:

http://www.genderhealth.net/library/italiano1.htm (http://www.genderhealth.net/library/italiano1.htm)

"whaddya think luv?"

Quote from: Sebastien on April 27, 2009, 07:41:50 PM
Regardless of post-surgical outcomes, I think RLE can be just as detrimental as it can be beneficial. Particularly if a transperson isn't on hormones, forced RLE could just result in the person being overly criticized on the basis of his/her gender nonconformity. I suppose the assumption of most therapists is that if you can get through the possible persecution inherent in RLE, you can overcome anything... but I wonder if the possible psychological torment is worth it.

SD

I agree and have pondered the usefulness of that myself. Especially if one is pre-HRT and has no chance of "passing" (that word we hate). It just seems like it's the same as saying, "Well instead of curing your birth-defect or continuing to hide it, you have to let it hang out for the world to see for a year first to determine if you can handle the cure".

Sorry, I know I'm blonde but I just don't get it sometimes. ??? (and my therapist agrees with me- about the forced RLE, not the blonde part lol)

In the final throw it all comes down to this: if you are going to transition, you will BE fulltime at the end of whatever process you decide to follow through with. You may wish to get hair-clearance, hrt, bas, ffs, etc first. But, finally if you transition at all you will be, perforce, full-time in the sex you were not designated on your original BC.

When one starts that would be a matter of choice. Where it ends is not a matter of choice if you are going to complete a transition.

Nichole

I have mixed feeling on the RLE.  When I finally started my transition, I did not see a need for RLE as gee I knew who I was.  It is in part a gatekeeper thingy. Doing RLE without or before hormones is just crazy. 

Yet in that year of RLE it did give me time to loose the guy and find the girl or just be myself as my formal SO said. So I think there is some value to doing RLE, or I found it so anyway.  Though saying it has to last at least a year, is bogus.  For some it might be 6 months for others 2-3 years. 

Some might not need it at all,  Gee we're all different and its not one size fits all.

Beni

For me RLE is just that, Real Life Experience, in other words the rest of your life in your true gender.

There is no better test than just life.  And let's face it, even if we were true to our birth genders, it is still pretty much OJT. 

So choosing to live as our true gender is OJT from square one.  We have nothing to base our experience on from our past.  We learn as we grow.  It is the only way.

Janet

In my own case, I'm GLAD that I've had to wait. I'm 2 years into my transition now. Looking back, I really don't think that I was truly READY for surgery. I mean, I had transient impulse moments when surgery was all I could think about, but again, looking back, I wasn't ready.

I agree that everyone's needs are different.

I will say, however, that I don't believe that the RLE guideline was put in place to harm anyone. You figure, when the SOC were put in place, they didn't have any evidence or much experience to go on. So they err'd on the side of caution.

Just my .02 cents.

from somewhere in the blogosphere:

QuoteLook for possible Real Life Tests of two years, possibly without hormones. And this is being done peremptory to enforce medical professional compliance with the upcoming DSM revision.

-cut-

If you are planning surgery, schedule it now, get your letters now, tomorrow may be too late.