Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Quotesuicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain.

do you agree with this statement?

With a qualification, yes. The qualification being "and when the pained one believes that there are no other avenues of coping than the ones already tried."

Nichole

I can agree with that statement to some degree. Such a cases happened with my late father-in-law who had terminal cancer. He was so wracked with physical and emotional pain that he begged me to help him end his life. he tried to contact Dr. Jack Kevorkian, and once told me if he had the strength he would walk to a rail road crossing and let a train hit him.

In his case it was not a cry for help such as is often the case when one talks about suicide but rather a result of unbearable pain.

Unequivocally.  Having tried several times, I was at my wits end and did not know where to turn to.

The first time, I just did not take enough drugs.  The second time a light pole stopped my headlong plunge in to oncoming traffic.  The last time, Janet took over and said "Enough I will not die and I will not be denied.", it was she... ah me... that called 911.

Those who finish the job are in just so much pain and no one will believe or understand where they are coming from.

By the way I am fine now, at 12 months HRT and 6 months RLE.

Janet

Constant pain and discouragement do strange things to your mind and your ability to make logical decisions.

The answer is Yes, I agree in most part with the premise.

Sarah L.

I believe it completely. When I've been there, I didn't want to die; the idea of continuing in such pain just seemed overwhelming. I did, however, choose not to even try.

I'm going to go against the flow and say it's a choice. A heavily influenced choice, but a choice nonetheless. Some people faced with intense pain will or will not receive outside help, and out of both groups, some choose to die and some choose not to. I don't think it's a last avenue or an auto-destruct button somewhere in our minds.

Through out history it has been noble to sacrifice your life for a cause. Putting yourself at known risk is a type of suicide. It comes down to what is your life worth to yourself and how will it end.

I honestly do not know enough to say one way or the other.  I have a tendency to believe there is choice in everything, but honestly I cannot say for sure.  I have had two people in my life attempt suicide in front of me while I was transitioning (both of them MTF as well).  It permanently changed me.  It made me a bastard when it comes to suicide - I have so little empathy anymore when it comes to it, though I know I should have more.  I don't ever want to be in the situation again of talking someone down whose ready to end it - far too much stress.

Quote from: Starr on April 29, 2009, 01:00:02 PM
I believe it completely. When I've been there, I didn't want to die; the idea of continuing in such pain just seemed overwhelming. I did, however, choose not to even try.

Yes, same. I didn't actually make a choice not to try, I just procrastinated. I'm good at that. Kept telling myself one more month. I can live through one more month. Sometimes it was one more week, or one more day. Then it all got better. But when you're in it, it seems like the pain is unbearable and the inner resources have run dry. I probably should have tried to find some other resources, but I was too pigheaded, or ashamed, to reach out for help.

Dennis

I agree with it.

       As one going through the pain right now,  I agree that it is a choice.   The pain (mental and physical) is there and one has a choice to end it immediately or not.  As was stated that all avenues for help come to a dead end and one feels no choice vut too commit suicide.  No two people are exactly a like.  How much pain one can withstand until help arrives is determined by how strong their will to overcome the depression.  It is also predetermined by ones background of who they are, where they grew up, how they were raised and their education level.  There are other variables as well, drug and alcohol usage levels and body issues are a few examples. But the primary variable , as I see it, is "the will to live" in each of us. 

I agree with the "heavily influenced" choice.  Extra stress on heavily influenced.

It's like someone holding a gun to your head and robbing you of your money.  You can choose NOT to give him your wallet.  It's still a choice.  It's just an influenced choice, because you have a gun to your face.  Suicide is the same way.  The only difference is that the person threatening you isn't holding the gun.  You are.

I think that as long as it feels like a choice, you haven't experienced your limit.
When your limit is met, you will break. That's just a matter of fact.
Nothing can be stretched indefinitely, everything has it's limits, and when that limit is met, it breaks.

I do believe that it "can" be chosen, but I also "know" that sometimes it's not a choice but the "only" thing a person can do.

I haven't been there yet in my life. I have been able to choose to stick around so far and honestly, with what I've lived through so far, I doubt I'll ever find my own limit and subsequently break.

I understand the premise and logic of the statement, however I ultimately think suicide is a choice. A selfish choice at best.
I have had personal experience with this subject and felt that it was a practical thing to consider when the joy of life was gone. My first try didn't solve anything or help me to understand why I thought offing myself would make anything better. They second time I considered it I planned my course of action and utilmately either chickened out or found some value in my existence that was obscured and worth conserving.
I rarely have the thoughts anymore and the only circumstances of which I would consider it again would be because of my health and to eliminate pain and suffering.

I think that was the point. Suicide used for relief of pain and suffering.

 I would agree if we define pain as physical beyond endurance or relief. As in terminal cancer etc. I have been very close with emotional pain. But I do not believe that is a choice. Emotional self pain does have choices; even if the choice is just time.

I had a colleague who killed himself because he was in debt. I thought that was a very selfish act. It was only a few hundred dollars and was more shame than anything else.

Cindy

When one decides to end there own existence for whatever reason, it is a poor choice. The only time it is acceptable to me is when it is under one of the following:

Your a Samurai doing it for honor
Your a Ninja who has failed his/her mission
Your a Spy found out
Your going to be tortured for information and then killed
Your going to die a slow painful death

If it is not under any of these, then you are weak and it is a good thing you end yourself, you provide this world with nothing, so be gone. There is always a choice, remember, The strong live, the weak die.

Quote from: Carolyn on September 09, 2009, 02:57:28 AM
If it is not under any of these, then you are weak and it is a good thing you end yourself

You are forgetting about santhara.

That is a legitimate reason for suicide.

Quote from: Carolyn on September 09, 2009, 02:57:28 AM
Your going to die a slow painful death

That covers a wide range of things. Some would even say severe depression falls under that as well.

Never understood the idea of suicide for honor. There is no honor in dying.

Quote from: Carolyn on September 09, 2009, 02:57:28 AM
When one decides to end there own existence for whatever reason, it is a poor choice
The strong live, the weak die.

I could not disagree more with these statements. I don't believe people "commit" suicide, I think suicide, like the events leading up to it, happens to people. In detail, I have to disagree with the prevailing sentiment.

If one is traumatised enough that life will be unbearable, honestly I can respect the decision. Everybody here is quite familiar with getting the short end of the stick, who are we to say we have the worst of it and judge the decisions of others? Maybe they hurt even more. Unimaginable that someone could hurt even more than us, isn't it?

The strong live? I disagree with this as well. In terms of suicide, the strong die. If the chosen method is drugs, the strong will use enough and not wind up in the er instead of the morgue. A shotgun, they don't forget to chamber a round. The strong are the ones who are in such pain that they can run a knife through their wrists, feel that last click of the trigger or the icy freeze of the river. I don't mean to advocate suicide by any means, for most of us yes there are options. However actually doing it takes nerves of steel and I don't think we should judge those who have. Think about it for a minute, running a knife through your wrists; and we bitch and whine about electrolysis pain. How must the people who can do it feel? To judge them and call them weak is disrespectful.

I would do it myself, if I wasn't convinced I'd pop right back here and have to do this crap all over, and knowing my luck it would be in a place or time a lot less accomodating that 21st century america. If I thought I'd just go to heaven and be happy, baby I woulda been gone a long time ago...but I'm not strong enough, so I suffer and whimper. Yeah, the strong survive.

Quote from: Becca on September 10, 2009, 02:20:10 AM
The strong live? I disagree with this as well.

I second this statement.  While cliche one-liners of evolution sound nice, they simply aren't true.  Human society doesn't really follow natural selection.  Physically, we have the technology to make weak people live.  Our society is screwed up enough that incompetent people can still be successfull.  And while all of that is going on, strong people are developing cancer.

The image of the warrior of society forging a future with his dominance is simply a fantasy.  The real truth is that it's more like a stampede.  Life is very chaotic.  Strong people don't always make it through, and weak people don't always lose.  Some complete loser can win the lottery.  And the strongest man you know could die instantly by getting struck by lightning.

Strong people are more likely to succeed, but the variation among groups is greater than the variation between them.

it isn't "survival of the strongest", it's "survival of the fittest"
Those who aren't "fit" to take the amount of emotional pain they are in aren't weaker, they've just found their limit.

I still stand by my words.
If there's still a "choice" involved, then that's because the limit hasn't been reached yet. Once the limit is reached, there is no choice.

In my opinion, there is a difference between elective euthanasia (medically assisted suicide) and killing oneself in the more visceral sense (overdose, leaping off a bridge, etc.)

Leaving aside the legality and ethics of the former, it is mostly sought by those facing a terminal illness and/or living under what they consider to be intolerable conditions. Obviously a judgement would have to be made on a case-by-case basis but the decision to pursue assisted suicide is ostensibly made on rational grounds by the sufferer (or at least more considered grounds) - even if we might not agree.

In the latter case, it's more of a "distraught" suicide, in that the individual is in such a state of despair that making a balanced judgement is inherently impossible.  For these people, I reject the notion that they are "weak" because that presupposes a rational decision from which they're opting for an "easy way out".  Besides, I find any notion of suicide being an easy way out to be extremely dubious!

As usual, this is just my personal opinion :)

Having attempted suicide on more than one occasion, that was the reason I gave myself.

I had lost the ability to cope, all other methods had been tried, and I saw no way out or change.

-Sandy(except one, of course)

I disagree.  I have attempted suicide on more than one occasion.  Or well got close to, yet chickened out (so glad I did.)  It is a choice and a very stupid one at that.  That being said, I don't blame people who make the choice as I agree that they most likely believe it is their only choice.  However, it's still a very stupid one, and the people who are dead due to suicide shall remain idiots in my eyes until I myself am dead.  Then if there is an afterlife, they will continue to remain as idiots.

As for the person who said that Samurai's Seppuku is acceptable, I still disagree.  It's just as stupid.  Then again I disagree with all their "acceptable" times they posted.  Even if you know your going to die a slow and painful death, committing suicide normally ends up to be just as slow and painful.  Unless you can be absolutely sure your death will be quick and painless, it shouldn't be acceptable even under the fact that you are going to die slowly and painfully. <<(They have painkillers for that)

For example, should one hang themselves they run the risk of thier neck NOT snapping, like my uncle.  This leads to slow and painful suffocation that you can do nothing about, even though at that point you've normally changed your mind.  My sister's friend's father (whom I've met) attempted suicide the "quick and painless" way of placing a gun to his temple, and pulling the trigger.  He lost his sight, it was bloody painful, yet he is still alive.  Death by slitting of the wrists, causes you to bleed out which is painful, and most people don't cut them properly and only end up in hospital. (Remember Kids, Across for hospital, down for morgue!). Seppuku as I already mentioned being one of that persons "acceptable times", is the process of stabbing oneself in the stomach and pulling the blade across from left to right to self disembowel.  Not quick, sure as hell not painless.  Finally there's drug overdose ( "lets take this whole bottle of sleeping pills and I'll drift to sleep for ever") No matter what type of pills, drug overdose normally involves painful stomach cramps (extremely painful, like worse than giving birth) vomitting, headaches and EVENTUALLY death.  Not quick and painless.

Living in a state where you're too drugged up on painkillers to function, or in too much pain to function, is not living.

Quote from: Adrianna on September 11, 2009, 11:54:48 AM

For example, should one hang themselves they run the risk of thier neck NOT snapping, like my uncle.  This leads to slow and painful suffocation that you can do nothing about, even though at that point you've normally changed your mind.  My sister's friend's father (whom I've met) attempted suicide the "quick and painless" way of placing a gun to his temple, and pulling the trigger.  He lost his sight, it was bloody painful, yet he is still alive.  Death by slitting of the wrists, causes you to bleed out which is painful, and most people don't cut them properly and only end up in hospital. (Remember Kids, Across for hospital, down for morgue!). Seppuku as I already mentioned being one of that persons "acceptable times", is the process of stabbing oneself in the stomach and pulling the blade across from left to right to self disembowel.  Not quick, sure as hell not painless.  Finally there's drug overdose ( "lets take this whole bottle of sleeping pills and I'll drift to sleep for ever") No matter what type of pills, drug overdose normally involves painful stomach cramps (extremely painful, like worse than giving birth) vomitting, headaches and EVENTUALLY death.  Not quick and painless.

If you check the internet there are some sites that describe suicide methods and their relative advantages/disadvantages.  Also if you are willing to accept a great amount of pain for a short period of time some ways such as jumping off a sufficiently high building (over 7 floors) or under a train (but be quick before the engineer sees you).  You can accomplish it quite efficiently.

Let's not hijack this thread with this terrible subject any longer.  Ok?

-Sandy

Quote from: LordKAT on September 02, 2009, 03:25:40 AM
I think that was the point. Suicide used for relief of pain and suffering.

That was the reason I considered it for much of my youth - to escape the daily emotional and physical abuse as the only other way out of it was to reach the legal age of majority (assuming the situations didn't lead to my death - came close on occasion) then fight back to gain my independence against a parent who was very invested in keeping control over me.  The source was my family and I was kept isolated (fairly easy to accomplish in rural USA when the abusive parent is around the house all the time) so I had no access to a support network or resources.  Suicide was definitely an attractive option and to this day I'm unable to answer the question, "why didn't you?"

Agent J,
I have a similar story but I did try. Several times.

i agree with it when tere is nothing left inside of you and no way out in sight hit the rest button and try again in the next life just try not to get bound to this one lol  ;)

If someone is wanting to take their own life they are treating themselves like an object not part of humanity. Life is much more than just your body. You are part of something larger and you do not even recognize that. It is sad when one only views themselves materialistic.

Yes I agree with the statement, having made a couple of serious attempts. I would say that there is no 'choice' about it by the time you reach the point of no longer being able to cope.
Personally I had gone beyond the point at which I could weigh up 'options' if you like.  Rational descision making just didn't enter into it

Lisa xx

Is it a choice to jump out the window of a burning building?

Is it a choice to stop treading water and drown because you feel too weak?

Is it a choice to put a gun to your head and pull the trigger?

Sure, they are all choices.  Just because these people are in extreme situations doesn't mean they don't have a choice.  Suicide doesn't happen.  You do something to make it happen. 

If your pain exceeds your resources for coping doesn't mean the pain will always exceed your resources for coping or that your resources for coping will never improve.

Julie

Ok this is bad taste facetiousness and I'll probably get scolded for it but my curiosity compels me to ask...

All these people who tried to off themselves several times...how come you're so bad at it?  How hard can it be?

I mean, nearly killing yourself even just once must be very unpleasant (time in hospital, stomach pumps, whatever) and surely that'd be enough to make sure you got it right the next time!

Quote from: lisagurl on October 08, 2009, 10:53:42 AM
If someone is wanting to take their own life they are treating themselves like an object not part of humanity. Life is much more than just your body. You are part of something larger and you do not even recognize that. It is sad when one only views themselves materialistic.

That argument is flawed because it presumes that being suicidal requires you to think of yourself as a bag of bones and nothing more.
I personally believe in far more than the physical existence that surrounds me at this very moment (if anything, I consider it possible that the physical existence isn't physical at all), that hasn't prevented me from knowing exactly where and how I'd end it (if it weren't for my daughter).

Quote(if it weren't for my daughter).

So no one besides you daughter matters?

Quote from: finewine on October 08, 2009, 05:35:43 PM
How hard can it be?

Well it isn't really hard, but it can be tricky because the body has survival mechanisms that take over when the conscious mind is out of the picture. I used drugs, and had researched lethal doses and all the stuff that goes along with it. What I didn't take into account was that the hydrocodone would knock me unconscious and I would then vomit the rest of the slower acting drugs all over my sleeping boyfriend. An anti vomiting drug was clearly in order.

Since then I've read a book called Final Exit, a fascinating read, and had some chemistry education  and if I ever find myself in that place again I won't screw it up twice.

Quote from: Becca on October 08, 2009, 09:56:35 PM
[...] if I ever find myself in that place again I won't screw it up twice.

Becca dear, please...if you find yourself in that place again just come and get a big hug from me instead, ok?  I'd really prefer it if you were here!! :)

Anyway, yes - gotcha on the pharmokinetics and physiological reaction.  I guess what I meant was, well, forget chemistry and go for physics...

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fmath%2F6%2Fe%2F3%2F6e306f943fc864e7ee41a1b3a7f16172.png&hash=c99382d7c75963ecb196845be83bd1a68cc508a3)

A height of about 500ft should be extremely reliable .... wheeeee *splat*.

Omg, yes. I was watching people jump off the bridge in that documentary, and I have to hand it to them for determination. I remember the first time I jumped out of a helicopter, backwards, it was a very counterintuitive thing to do. No thanks, while it is intriguing I'll skip the fall and just go to sleep.

Quote from: lisagurl on October 08, 2009, 08:36:04 PM
So no one besides you daughter matters?

Try not to assume so much, it's really not an appropriate way to converse.

My daughter relies upon me, and exists because of me. I am the least bad option for caretaker available to her. She is the one being that would suffer the most should I off myself.
She is the one person which I can justify living for.

Other people matter, yes, but at the end of the day, No One should continue living for the sake of other people. You can't live for the sake of "not upsetting" other people.

Her being the one thing I can justify living for the sake of doesn't mean other things are not important.
_

Secondly, I don't believe anything has an inherit importance or meaning or value.  We are the ones that attribute importance to something.
Things aren't "important" unless they are important to something else and that importance is an emotional importance, not a factual one.
What is important to me may not be important to you. Take my daughter for example. She is important to me, but she's not important to you. I know this because I know that you do not know her and thus are unable to have an opinion of her value as an individual, and her life does not affect you in any direct way. This means that, should she die for any reason, unless you are told about it, it doesn't affect you nor make any difference to you. If you don't know that she died, it wouldn't mean anything to you. If you were told however, your reaction would be in reaction to "a child" dying, and not at all specific to her as an individual. Thus, she, as an individual, does not hold importance to you, as an individual.

The same process goes into meaning and purpose and all that jazz. If we look at the whole of all of existence, our whole planet is like a single grain in the Sahara desert.
If a single grain is removed from the Sahara, the desert doesn't care, and the change is so small it's negligible.

What is important to me, is important to me for my reasons which means it's importance in relation to me is a single, unique phenomenon. It doesn't mean it's not important to anyone else, only that it's importance to anyone else is based on their experiences and their existence and thus different from mine. My daughter will never be important to you the exact same way as she's important to me.

Your idea of what people think and experience is never going to align itself fully and completely without error to how people themselves think and experience because you can not see through another man's eyes the way he sees through them himself. To presume to know what suicide means to another person is thus flawed, at best. To presume to know that all people think of themselves as an object when they consider suicide is presumptuous at best.

And lastly.
Aren't you concerned about the overpopulation of the planet? One would think that you'd at least not be a strong opponent of death, considering how you've voiced that concern in the past.
I mean, which is it going to be? To many people (in which case the loss of people is acceptable). Or, Loss of people is unacceptable (in which case, you can't rightly say that there are too many people, since you can't spare one or two).
_

At the end of the day, to me, Suicide is about life.
Life, as I see it, is not measured in time from birth to death. Life isn't about drawing breath and "surviving". Life, in my mind, is about living. And if a human being feels they aren't living, that they're only surviving and suffering, then that human being doesn't have "life".
Their choice to leave their non-life when it becomes too much for them to survive through is something I can respect and accept.

No man should be forced to suffer, just so we don't have to say "bye".

Quote... I'll skip the fall and just go to sleep.

This reminds me, tangentally, of a documentary I saw on methods of execution.  What they found was that the most "humane" form of execution (leaving aside the fundamental issue of whether execution is inherently humane at all) was hypoxia.

Death from hypoxia sends you to sleep, peacefully, painlessly and the last thing you experience is a sense of euphoria (according to the subject who was taken to the point of passing out in an altitude chamber).

I guess if you gotta go, that'd be the least traumatic option.

QuoteDeath from hypoxia sends you to sleep, peacefully, painlessly

Exit bags and tents, yes. Apparently they were all the rave for a while. I read that after Final Exit was published, suicides didn't really go up, but messy, unsucessful ones went down as these bags found favor.

QuoteOne would think that you'd at least not be a strong opponent of death

It is not death or the individual that is important, it is humanity. The organism that we are all a part of. The greater good, destiny of the human race. We are all cells of a great living thing. Each cell does its function for the greater living thing to survive. With out that caring for the movement of life itself the individual is just a bag of bones. It is true that we have too many people on this planet. We need to work together to reduce the number of new births and help make each cell a product of life of the whole.