Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Tenn. unknowingly marries transgender couple; subject jailed as man, identifies as woman

By Associated Press
12:03 PM CDT, May 13, 2009

http://www.whnt.com/news/sns-ap-tn--transgender-marriage,0,3063216.story (http://www.whnt.com/news/sns-ap-tn--transgender-marriage,0,3063216.story)

CLARKSVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Jo T. Rittenberry and Jeffery Scott Phillips recently learned their 18-month marriage is invalid because the state considers both to be men.

Rittenberry, who is 46, was born a man but identifies as a woman and claims to have had sex reassignment surgery in Canada. Rittenberry had officials legally change the gender on Rittenberry's Kentucky birth certificate and Tennessee driver's license, the Clarksville Leaf Chronicle reports.

But the Montgomery Sheriff's Department spokesman Ted Denny said Rittenberry is being housed with men because Rittenberry has male genitalia.

Yep, one of the big drawbacks to being arrested is that they will actually check out things like what sort of genitalia you possess w/o just taking your word for it.

For reasons like this I guess.

The way your dad looked at it, this watch was your birthright. He'd be damned if any slopes gonna put their greasy yellow hands on his boy's birthright, so he hid it, in the one place he knew he could hide something: his ass. Five long years, he wore this watch up his ass. Then when he died of dysentery, he gave me the watch. I hid this uncomfortable piece of metal up my ass for two years. Then, after seven years, I was sent home to my family. And now, little man, I give the watch to you.

Quote from: tekla on May 13, 2009, 01:12:05 PM
For reasons like this I guess.

The way your dad looked at it, this watch was your birthright. He'd be damned if any slopes gonna put their greasy yellow hands on his boy's birthright, so he hid it, in the one place he knew he could hide something: his ass. Five long years, he wore this watch up his ass. Then when he died of dysentery, he gave me the watch. I hid this uncomfortable piece of metal up my ass for two years. Then, after seven years, I was sent home to my family. And now, little man, I give the watch to you.

Yeech!! I know that's not a movie script quote! :laugh:

Christopher Walken, in Pulp Fiction - that scene brings tears to my eyes every time I watch it, its near perfect.

Quote from: tekla on May 13, 2009, 01:14:52 PM
Christopher Walken, in Pulp Fiction - that scene brings tears to my eyes every time I watch it, its near perfect.

Yep, it dawned on me as I hit enter!

I love the look in the kids face when, after that story, Walken tries to hand him the watch.

How they would house her in case she would have undergone proper SRS? In TN post-op is legally male.

Quote from: DarkLady on May 13, 2009, 01:28:04 PM
How they would house her in case she would have undergone proper SRS? In TN post-op is legally male.

I'm not sure that post-op is actually "legally male" in TN for the purposes of housing someone with a vagina in a cell. I know that the state will (w/ a pen) cross out one's original birth designation and write the opposite in over the crossout! Yeah, ain't that a hoot? Like you couldn't do that all on your own and that they prolly wouldn't issue a marriage license to anyone they could determine was post-op.

But, I don't know about your question, DL. I dunno, a query to the Montgomery County SD might get you an answer as to how they'd manage things.

I wouldn't expect logic and good sense should color your opinion about what sort of answer you'd get though.

N~

I am not american so my questions are not valid.

Pretty much it ain't even about being an American, but a resident of the Great State of Tennessee as it were.

All of the state is very pretty, but some parts are, well, a bit backward.

But the old If you can't do the time, don't do the crime comes to mind here too.

You are dealing with 2 different states.
The woman is from Kentucky and managed to get the birth cert. changed in Kentucky by forging S.R.S. documents.

Tennessee however does not recognize post op status as being female, and considering what happened in Kentucky, documents were again considered forged. She had not had S.R.S. and was using a false birth certificate to pass herself as being a female or post of female.

Had she had S.R.S. chances are no one would have bothered since no one would have questioned the Kentucky birth cert or the woman. Tennessee would have had little way or reason to know.

Quote from: Leslie Ann on May 13, 2009, 02:24:00 PM
Tennessee however does not recognize post op status as being female, and considering what happened in Kentucky, documents were again considered forged. She had not had S.R.S. and was using a false birth certificate to pass herself as being a female or post of female.

If that's factual then I guess Calpernia drives very safely when she visits the folks and makes certain that there are no outstanding warrants for her. :laugh:

So the key appears to be not getting one's self charged with domestic assault.

It remains mystery how TN would house a post-op with vagina. However it seems to that to men's side. Ohio does not recognize sex change however prison placement is based on external genitalia. The final answer is not founded.

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Post Merge: May 13, 2009, 02:56:54 PM

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Only way would be search are there info about known post-op transsexuals imprisoned in TN. Or be quiet.

The original news article can be found here, a detailed and well written news story:
http://www.theleafchronicle.com/article/20090512/NEWS01/905120319/ (http://www.theleafchronicle.com/article/20090512/NEWS01/905120319/)

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

Has TN own way to determine one's physical sex, different than some other states?
The artickle says that in county have not been completely post-op cases.

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Post Merge: May 13, 2009, 05:21:31 PM

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The artickle says that the placement was based on physical however it also says that the placement was based ''lack of documentation that she was female from birth''. Quit confusing.

They have what every the law says, and for the US that's fifty different laws (plus a different federal law) and whatever the locals can get away with.  You get to some of the backwoods areas of Tennessee, where the sheriff is the judges brother, and their cousin is the mayor, they can pretty much do what they want for a long time.

relevant sections of the article:
Rittenberry was housed with the men based on the physical.

"He still has male genitalia, and as far as the state of Tennessee is concerned and the jail is concerned, he's still a man," Denny said. "He will be treated like a man — with respect — but he has to be treated like a man because all documentation points to his male gender from birth."

Capt. Douglas Tackett, administrator of the jail and workhouse, said transgender people are offered protective custody if they have problems among the general population.

Rittenberry is in isolation for protection.

"In a facility like ours or any prison facility, when you have someone to fall in that category, he could be taken advantage of," Denny said. "He is in isolation to keep from being injured or someone hurting him."

Tackett said he doesn't remember having an inmate come into the jail with a complete sex change procedure.

It really says two reasons a. genitalia b. birthsex. In case they are different?

I recently learned from a reliable source--though I have yet to verify it--that my own city houses inmates based on genitals. So an FTM can be totally finished with his transition and be legally male with the DMV, SSA, and vital records office (for the birth cert) but still be housed with female inmates because he never had phallo.

This strikes me as more than a little problematic. Especially when there's a lot of facial hair involved.

So I'm wondering if such policies are the general rule around the country. I would guess that they are. But anybody know?

By genitals is the general rule. But would post-op FTM had external male genitalia (even made by a doctor)?

Quote from: DarkLady on May 13, 2009, 05:43:06 PM
By genitals is the general rule. But would post-op FTM had external male genitalia (even made by a doctor)?

I fixed my response so it makes more sense. Most FTMs of my acquaintance haven't had phallo...in fact, I only know of one, offhand. And a lot of them are completely done and legally male in all respects.

Except with the county jail, apparently.

I am sorry about my ignorance but in that case most FTM:s go to female prisons. (Solitary confiment it think.) Is it what is between your legs.

Quote from: Arch on May 13, 2009, 05:40:49 PM
I recently learned from a reliable source--though I have yet to verify it--that my own city houses inmates based on genitals. So an FTM can be totally finished with his transition and be legally male with the DMV, SSA, and vital records office (for the birth cert) but still be housed with female inmates because he never had phallo.

This strikes me as more than a little problematic. Especially when there's a lot of facial hair involved.

In many ways, I think he would be safer with the female inmates than with the males...

In case you do not have a penis male prison is dangerous as death to you.

Quote from: Vexing on May 13, 2009, 06:21:56 PM
In many ways, I think he would be safer with the female inmates than with the males...

Probably, but I would much prefer solitary in a male prison. Not that there's much chance of my being arrested, but you never know.

Then again, it's not just the inmates I would have to worry about. If the male guards decide they don't like me, that could get pretty interesting. To put it mildly.

It's just that I become extremely uncomfortable and nervous around crowds of women. I'm usually okay with equally mixed crowds, and I'm fine with individual women in very small groups of one to three or so. But in larger groups of women only, my mommy issues kick in, and I start to feel outnumbered and threatened. Yet another thing to work on in therapy... :icon_weirdface:

But, yes, I would actually BE safer in a women's prison.

I would actually BE safer in a women's prison.

You just don't even have a clue as to what kind of girls get to go to prison do you?  I wouldn't worry about what's between your legs, when you get in there, its all about the color of your skin.

According the information we have this TS-woman seems to be pre-op.

However it remains unsolved how TN would house in a post-op MFf with vagina in the practice. There are controversal information and not enough evidence to pressume it either way.

The solutionis to get the hell out of Tennessee before sundown.

Quote from: Genevieve Swann on May 14, 2009, 07:45:37 AM
The solutionis to get the hell out of Tennessee before sundown.

Hmm, that's prolly not a particularly good solution for those here who live there and there are some, including the board owner.

N~

Even the officials in TN don't know what the law is. I live in Nashville and belong to a local TS support group with a mailing list. The following letter was sent to the mailing list to try and explain some of the confusion surrounding this:

QuoteIf one is born in Tennessee they cannot change the gender on their birth
certificate. You can get a court ordered name change but if you want it on the
birth certificate they just strike out the birth name then type on the new one
so still very obvious. However, once a Transsexual is issued a US Passport in
their new identity it trumps that Tennessee birth certificate, you are no longer
obligated to identify as that baby or ever present that birth certificate again.

Marriage laws are completely separate. In Knoxville a post-transition
Female-to-Male Transsexual native Tennessean had changed his Driver License
gender marker while living in California, so when he moved back to TN his TN
license was issued with Male on it instead of the birth gender. That FTM then married
a female-identified "born Female" in 1998. They stayed married
for 8 years before he chose to divorce. As far as the state of Tennessee is
concerned he is just another Man. His wife transitioned during the marriage. Dec
2005 Mrs R became a second Mr R. Jan 01, 2006, Tennessee enacted a ban on
same-sex marriage. Later that year first Mr R filed for divorce. It was granted
on the grounds that second Mr R is now legally male so they were a same sex
couple as 2 MALES so the divorce was granted without prejudice.

So here we have proof that there are no genetic tests in Tennessee for marriage
(there are in parts of Texas), and the couple in your article are not the first
"natal same-sex" marriage by many years (1998 vs 2007, and I witnessed 2 others
in past 3 years). Whatever is on your ID is what you are when you get a marriage
license in every county in this state. And we have case law for a transitioned
Transsexual to be recognized in the new gender. That completely contradicts this
media report. The difference here is that neither of these FTMs were criminals,
neither faked surgery letters, neither lied, neither had to be strip searched at
a prison.

All I can say is thank goddess I was born in another state where you can easily get your birth certificate gender marker changed. I am planning GRS at some point next year but will probably stay in TN... at any rate I am a quiet person and do not plan to do anything illegal to end up another sad story on the evening news.

Like the letter tells a "Passport" trumps the Birth Certificate. There is never a need to change the Birth Certificate.

Quote from: Kiera on May 14, 2009, 09:26:32 AM
If a 'crocodile Dundee check' is performed, the determining factor, what - under normal circumstances - would cause them to think anything otherwise (unless of course 'born in TN' in which case i would probably consider *moving*)?

Any POST OPS from TN here willing to volunteer, test & satisfy DarkLady's curiosity? (sheeze - too close to GA for my comfort!)

I rather think not, but now that she is maybe she could emigrate from Finland to Clarksville and see how that works!! :laugh:

Just kiddin', Dark Lady, stay in Helsinki, even if you think it's bad there, there are worse places to be. :) 

If one is really interested in finding out the law on this you can look up the TN state legal codes, it's all there.

See the same news story here:

www. concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090514/NEWS03/905140324/1013

Note the last paragraph (emphasis mine):

QuoteMontgomery Sheriff's Department spokesman Ted Denny told the Associated Press yesterday that Rittenberry is being housed with men and was patted down by both male and female officers because Rittenberry has breasts and male genitalia.

Link broken to maintain integrity of Rule 1 of the TOS --- the information was left because the link itself is an important piece of the factual basis for this thread. --- Nichole

I absolutely not going to any jail to satisfy my curiosity.  >:(

Quote from: DarkLady on May 14, 2009, 10:06:55 AM
I absolutely not going to any jail to satisfy my curiosity.  >:(

I don't think anyone would expect you to!! :laugh:

I need to toss in some "what if's" just to make you go Hmmm based on the case and point, she was housed based on external genitals suppose a M2F has been nullified both penis and testicals and scrotum completly removed but no internal parts? And I have two F2M friends both have had total hysto top surgury but one has had her vagail canal removed a set of prostetic testicals implanted and every thing sewn shut, he uses a penis pump on his enlarged clitoris and does very well standing to pee, he can almost penetrate a woman, everyone has had there birth records changed and other documents reflect there apperance, I wonder where they would be housed?

In most other states than the deep south it means vagina or penis. The placement decision is done by external genitalia.

Quote from: DarkLady on May 14, 2009, 10:21:34 AM
In most other states than the deep south it means vagina or penis. The placement decision is done by external genitalia.

DL, as I said in the other thread, where are you getting your facts? Have you done the legal and procedural research and found evidence for the things you're writing on these threads? If so, please send along some proof of that so as a staff-member I can post links to the info and we aren't just relying totally on speculation and our ideas about what "the deep South" of USA is like.

I suspect it's not much like Helsinki at all, but it may not be as uniformly horrendous as yours and other's statements as though they are facts make it out to be. Show some proof, please, for the things you say.

Thanks so much,

Nichole

I don't think your gonna find any real hard facts or links, I work parttime for one those deep south agencies and I can tell you the duck factor plays big if your not familiure with the duck factor it's simple if looks, walks and sounds like a duck then it's a duck, so while a person is being booked they are strip searched and issued an orange jump suit while the strip search is being done if somethings don't match up the jailer will call the high sheriff and have him come on down for a lookie see and he will make the final say so usually based on the duck factor, and toss em in the drunk tank, wake up cousin Judge and hold court just as fast as he can to get the "freeq" outa his jail "his words not mine" while that's going on the jailer has done called everyone she knows and knocked the rummor mill into high gear, all that while the books are kept strait so no law suits occur and everything looks good on paper i.e. No links or data PC correct. Fortunatlly I befriended her and she was not harmed while waiting arraingnment for solcitation and her secret is safe with me, mainly because she knows mine and gave me some awesome makeup tips :)

Perhaps in Mississippi. I have asked my question from too many peolple to agree with you. Including one former law enforment official from the old south.

Depending on the offense and the specific jail not everyone is striped searched or given a jump suit. Some just make you empty your pockets and pat you down, not even very closely. You get locked up in a holding cell till you see a judge.

Quote from: DarkLady on May 14, 2009, 11:01:42 AM
Perhaps in Mississippi. I have asked my question from too many peolple to agree with you. Including one former law enforment official from the old south.

No one is requesting your agreement. It's fine if you don't agree.

My experiences (all hearsay from others arrested) pretty much tally with what Cindygurl45 stated in her post. That's the way lots of jurisdictions do the actually deeds, regardless of what laws are on State and Local blue books. That is not limited to the Deep South, the Mid-South, the Midwest, Northeast, Rocky Mountains, Mid-Atlantic, Southwest, or Pacific Coast. Local authority, as long as the paperwork looks right and there's no witness to prove differently, usually have their own ways to handle matters.

What you're doing is stating as fact a process to be true as a State law. Such matters are able to be found at the appropriate State govt websites.

A post-comment at Bilerico is not the same thing as "proof" just as such comments here are not "proof."

As I told you privately, spreading rumor, innuendo and false perceptions is not the interest of this board when it comes to matters that effect, possibly, the entire community.

Please, regardless of whether or not you agree, desist in stating as factual hearsay.

Thanks so much.

Nichole

I lived both in Mississippi and TN and my ex-partner worked in law firms in both. The "good old boy" structure lives so regardless of the law, lawyers and judges do as they please.

Quote from: lisagurl on May 14, 2009, 11:27:39 AM
I lived both in Mississippi and TN and my ex-partner worked in law firms in both. The "good old boy" structure lives so regardless of the law, lawyers and judges do as they please.

That happens, as I said, pretty much everywhere.

So the persons whom I asked have screwed me up. The former law enforment official was quit sure about the things. And wanted hard evidence to believe differently.

I thought I said pretty much the same thing back a few pages now, yup.

You get to some of the backwoods areas of Tennessee, where the sheriff is the judges brother, and their cousin is the mayor, they can pretty much do what they want for a long time.

But perhaps bob said it best (as almost always):
Well, the emptiness is endless, cold as the clay
You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way
Only one thing I did wrong
Stayed in Mississippi a day too long

Quote from: tekla on May 13, 2009, 09:24:47 PM
I would actually BE safer in a women's prison.

You just don't even have a clue as to what kind of girls get to go to prison do you?  I wouldn't worry about what's between your legs, when you get in there, its all about the color of your skin.

Don't assume what I do and do not have a clue about, Tekla. Skin color, as I understand it, is key in just about any prison that houses people of different races. I said safer, not safe. "Safer" is relative to the respective threats. And anyway (perhaps this was not clear), by this time, I was not referring to the inmates so much as to the COs. Wherever I would be, I would request to be sequestered from the regular prison population because of my trans status. In my neck of the woods, such requests are supposedly honored. Supposedly.

But since I'm a meek, mild-mannered, middle-class white boy who never gets into trouble, the issue is probably moot, for me.

That's gotta be the best advise, just don't do anything that will get you arrested, including forging your SRS papers to get married, that is unless you enjoy the idea of being locked up and all your private business made public, sometimes a point just ain't worth it.

I taught in prisons for years, male and female (see what you have to look forward to if you ever finish that PhD?) and what I saw was the the law was much less likely to toss women in, as a result, the women you get are far more violent then the average guy in prison is. 

And that was a nice, white midwestern state.  You go to a state with a major city, with much bigger drug dealing going down, and with more gang activity - look out. I've done work in California prisons, and that's an entire different deal than the Iowa prison system.

Wherever I would be, I would request to be sequestered from the regular prison population because of my trans status.
Solitary confinement - which is pretty much what it is, or you'll be in with cops gone bad - really messes with people's minds.  Even people on death row get to talk to other people.

And you can request it, but depending on what you did, and who is deciding, and how much work you have had done, and how much they have to do - its a toss up.  You are a prisoner, you have NO rights.

Quote from: DarkLady on May 14, 2009, 11:34:56 AM
So the persons whom I asked have screwed me up. The former law enforment official was quit sure about the things. And wanted hard evidence to believe differently.

No, I wouldn't say that they screwed you up, not unless you're planning to go to prison and desire placement in a male prison wherever it was they were familiar with.

Ya know, it's been my experience with prison guards and the psychs who work at prisons and the wardens of the two prisons I've been required to visit in from time to time in the course of the work I do and even in the several county and local jails I've been around as a matter of my work that all most people want in those situations is a quiet and easy time with as little violence and turmoil as possible.

Trust me, incarcerating someone with a vagina in a male general population is not going to result in "a quiet and easy time with as little violence and turmoil as possible."

N~

Even if Rittenbury had had GRS, the marriage would have been voided.  But if they married in Kentucky it wouldn't have.  Jenny Boylan did a great job at pointing out the absurdity of having each state decide who is what gender and who marries who:

A lawyer for the transgendered plaintiff in the Littleton case noted the absurdity of the country's gender laws as they pertain to marriage: "Taking this situation to its logical conclusion, Mrs. Littleton, while in San Antonio, Tex., is a male and has a void marriage; as she travels to Houston, Tex., and enters federal property, she is female and a widow; upon traveling to Kentucky she is female and a widow; but, upon entering Ohio, she is once again male and prohibited from marriage; entering Connecticut, she is again female and may marry; if her travel takes her north to Vermont, she is male and may marry a female; if instead she travels south to New Jersey, she may marry a male."

Julie

I vote for the stay out of prison/jail approach, I did get a speeding ticket once about 15 years ago.
Myles

Quote from: myles on May 14, 2009, 12:52:46 PM
I vote for the stay out of prison/jail approach, I did get a speeding ticket once about 15 years ago.
Myles

I'm with you! lol  :laugh:

It's not worse than you imagine, its worse than you can imagine.  Particularly if you are in for something violent.

Quote from: tekla on May 14, 2009, 01:02:35 PM
It's not worse than you imagine, its worse than you can imagine.  Particularly if you are in for something violent.

Yeah, nothing quite like caging a bunch of tigers together for twenty-five to fifty-years and not feeding them. They tend to eat each other. 

Not exactly like they were charm school graduates to begin with.

Quote from: tekla on May 14, 2009, 01:15:58 PM
Not exactly like they were charm school graduates to begin with.

O, I don't know, some of the ones I've worked with have been pretty charming when they've needed to be. :) But I doubt that they got that from any "charm-school" other than the one they needed on the street and then in prison.

Well, however this all shakes out we have a trans person who committed some crimes and is being labeled a transgender criminal.  Springer material totally.  And the readers of this story will say, "See, those people are a menace to society!  They should all be locked up!"  :icon_bat:

Will I still be alive when there's a news article published that tells of a trans person doing something good?  :icon_bunch:

Julie

Quote from: lisagurl on May 14, 2009, 11:23:23 AM
Depending on the offense and the specific jail not everyone is striped searched or given a jump suit. Some just make you empty your pockets and pat you down, not even very closely. You get locked up in a holding cell till you see a judge.

Yea. Usually Cis-women are allowed to use their own clothes. (This may be different in different states/ counties.)

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Post Merge: May 14, 2009, 06:13:19 PM

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Quote from: Nichole on May 14, 2009, 12:16:05 PM
No, I wouldn't say that they screwed you up, not unless you're planning to go to prison and desire placement in a male prison wherever it was they were familiar with.

Ya know, it's been my experience with prison guards and the psychs who work at prisons and the wardens of the two prisons I've been required to visit in from time to time in the course of the work I do and even in the several county and local jails I've been around as a matter of my work that all most people want in those situations is a quiet and easy time with as little violence and turmoil as possible.

Trust me, incarcerating someone with a vagina in a male general population is not going to result in "a quiet and easy time with as little violence and turmoil as possible."

N~

Actually they were saying that external genitalia is the placement criteria.

Quote from: Julie Marie on May 14, 2009, 04:21:27 PM
Will I still be alive when there's a news article published that tells of a trans person doing something good?  :icon_bunch:

Julie

Figure out the ratio of good news published vs. bad, then adjust for transgendered amongst the good ones. Don't forget to adjust for the hate mongering editor.  You could be in for a long wait.

However the artickle says physical. Nothing that the determing faction was male genitalia that they perceived. You can use bone struckture to determine sex for example.

Quote from: DarkLady on May 15, 2009, 06:24:21 AM
However the artickle says physical. Nothing that the determing faction was male genitalia that they perceived. You can use bone struckture to determine sex for example.

I think a pants check is a bit more simple.