Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Why...
dyssonance

http://www.dyssonance.com/?p=398 (http://www.dyssonance.com/?p=398)

Why isn't there a decent Trans-centric news and info blog that has a wide readership similar to HuffPost and PHB and the like?

Why isn't there an awareness of transculture?

Why isn't there a social network for transfolk akin to myspace and facebook?

Why isn't there an elected transperson in Congress?

Why is there more stigma for being involved in sex work than there is for having a mental health diagnosis?

*sigh* Sometimes I wish she were at Susan's. She's so incredibly brilliant that even her questions cut to the heart of the matter.

There is the LOGO channel, but that is mostly for LBGs, they tend to overlook the T.

I dont think there is much of a market for a Trans channel, but maybe a TNN (Transsexual News Network) website would be cool.

Quote*sigh* Sometimes I wish she were at Susan's.

You can find her at http://www.tgboards.com/forums/index.php (http://www.tgboards.com/forums/index.php)

Personally I wonder, Why we need a trans-culture? Can not all of society be mixed and respect each other as long as we all contribute and live harmoniously?

Quote from: lisagurl on May 21, 2009, 09:06:28 AM
You can find her at http://www.tgboards.com/forums/index.php (http://www.tgboards.com/forums/index.php)

Personally I wonder, Why we need a trans-culture? Can not all of society be mixed and respect each other as long as we all contribute and live harmoniously?

I can "find" her by calling her. :) Or sending her an email. :)

I tend to agree with your point about a "trans-culture" and a way to make an inclusive culture.

Why isn't there a decent Trans-centric news and info blog that has a wide readership similar to HuffPost and PHB and the like?

Numbers for one thing.  Second, as so many people are in stelth, its hard to get anyone to identify as such and be out and proud about it. 

Why isn't there an awareness of transculture?

I'm not sure there is a trans culture.  At best what you might be able to get is a trans sub culture, like the gay subculture.

Why isn't there a social network for transfolk akin to myspace and facebook?

Because most of us want to be part of the mainstream, not exiled to some little out of the way ghetto.

Why isn't there an elected transperson in Congress?

How do you elect someone to be, according to what many in here believe, represent an illness?  Its like saying "how come therer isn't a cancer congressperson."

Why is there more stigma for being involved in sex work than there is for having a mental health diagnosis?

I'm not even sure that you're right about this.  I think I could almost argue the other way round.

Why isn't there a social network for transfolk akin to myspace and facebook?

there is one.

Why isn't there an elected transperson in Congress?

this question should probably be "an elected out transperson" because really, you never know.

Why is there more stigma for being involved in sex work than there is for having a mental health diagnosis?

because we feel bad for people who are mentally ill and our country runs on the idea that sex is dirty and shameful, unless it's man-on-top for procreation only. 

Quote from: lisagurl on May 21, 2009, 09:06:28 AM
You can find her at http://www.tgboards.com/forums/index.php (http://www.tgboards.com/forums/index.php)

Personally I wonder, Why we need a trans-culture? Can not all of society be mixed and respect each other as long as we all contribute and live harmoniously?

No. It cannot.

QuoteNo. It cannot

I take it that you are not an optimist.

That or a realist, Lisagurl ;)

Thank you for the crossposting -- I am honored :D

Might I ask for the social networking link, please?

I would think that there is no elected Congressperson because none have run -- but ya
never know as noted :D  Gimmie a few years.  Maybe I'll get there.

As for sex work, you'd think that we'd feel bad for sex workers since the primary excuse is that they do it out of survival.

(Of course, that would fail, since most don't).

What illness?  Transsexualism?  It isn't an illness.  Its a blessing.

Numbers - trans* is far more than transsexuals, and the numbers are tremendous.

A sub culture is still a culture. And we do indeed have one.  Its incredible and dynamic and amazing.

Needless to say, I'm always up for an argument. Not always very good at it, mind you, but always game :D

And dear sweet Nichole -- you wished.  So here I am.  Bets on how long I last?

Tekla hit the nail on the head.  I would imagine that many if not most Transsexuals who successfully transitioned and integrated themselves into society do not want to compromise what they have achieved after what has been a life of living hell, and I count myself amongst them.

-={LR}=-

QuoteTranssexuals who successfully transitioned and integrated themselves into society do not want to compromise what they have achieved after what has been a life of living hell, and I count myself amongst them.

Count me in too please.

Quote from: dyssonance on May 21, 2009, 09:50:59 PM
Thank you for the crossposting -- I am honored :D

Thanks for asking important questions Dyssonance! I thought folks here would want to see and ponder them. And many thanks for joining us here!

Z

Quote from: dyssonance on May 21, 2009, 09:50:59 PM

And dear sweet Nichole -- you wished.  So here I am.  Bets on how long I last?

:laugh: I did and you did. Thanks, luv.

How long? I dunno. Until we drop the ring into Mt. Doom and that nasty ole eye falls apart? :)

Be sure to follow the TOS and that should keep you here for awhile. If you feel like someone's trolling please report to the moderation staff rather than using a broadsword! :laugh: otherwise like Susan says, "it's common sense." Butcha might be surprised how rare "common sense" can be. :)

N~

Quote from: Ladyrider on May 21, 2009, 09:54:19 PM
Tekla hit the nail on the head.  I would imagine that many if not most Transsexuals who successfully transitioned and integrated themselves into society do not want to compromise what they have achieved after what has been a life of living hell, and I count myself amongst them.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Jeannette on May 21, 2009, 09:57:37 PM
Count me in too please.

'Scuse me,  I have both.  I'm out AND stealth.  I have been in groups where I'm out to some and stealth to others (my allies have long since gotten past the need to 'drop the bomb,' and are now feeling privileged to be in on the secret as I'm perceived as 100% female by those who are not yet aware of my being male-bodied/female-brained.)

I don't out myself when it's unnecessary, and I find I'm not read.

But I will out myself to advance the cause of full equality for the transgender community.  For everybody in the community, including those who have chosen to go and remain stealth.

My rule for me -- I don't out myself without a good reason to do so, and I'm not ashamed to out myself when there's a good reason, because I am not ashamed of myself.

(Standard disclaimer:  "Your Mileage May Vary")

Karen

QuoteThat or a realist, Lisagurl

A realist is a subjective idea based on a person's experience. Example is, I never experienced a gay culture or been in a social situation with a gay person. So a gay culture is foreign to me. What is real to me would be the culture it takes to run a nuclear plant without mistakes. I could be optimistic about that happening but not optimistic about ever meeting someone in a bar.

Funny, I worked for the world's largest builder of Nuke plants and we had a LOT of gay men and women working for us. 

And, not all gay people participate in the gay subculture, nor are all the people in that subculture gay.

As for the political issue, its going to be hard to win in the areas with the most trans persons, as those places tend to be very set politically.  SF has a large number of trans persons, but running against Miss Nancy and winning, ain't gonna happen.  Moreover it tend to take a real movement.  Here, let my friend explain it, he does it very well.

But in the real world individual heroics are a fools gold when compared with the genuine value of building political movements.  The immense obstacles to to effective grassroots organizing can be overcome not by lone rangers, but by persistent organizers and coalition builders.

fascinating side discussion -- and what is interesting is that many seek to define themselves in ways that are pointedly addressed in the questions asked.

So, this still leaves the question unanswered, and lets try a different question:

Why do we define our identities the way we do?

What is it that makes some of claim transgender or transsexual, while others do not?  What's the reasoning behind it -- what do you claim for yourself, and *why* do you claim it?

Not a friendly set of questions -- people will often take the statements and ideas of others as an attack on themselves, and the language we will use in describing such will often be insulting to others.

But it runs deep, and its a conversation we avoid and we talk around, but why we identify the way we do has much to do with why we are othered.

And not always in the way people expect.

Transsexualism ends when transition ends.

Then why would anyone need TS rights?

What you are *is* your identity, however.  You can identify as many things -- identity is not exclusive.  IF you see yourself as a woman, as female, then that is your identity.

Woman/female is only one of my identities. And transsexualism does not have an endpoint, de facto, especially under the categorization (which is further opinion) you give it. -- but that's an interesting opinion, and could be a further discussion of value. As a congential condition, it would directly inheritable and incurable.

So the questions still stand, applicable even then.

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Post Merge: May 23, 2009, 01:09:36 PM

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Quote from: tekla on May 23, 2009, 01:07:27 PM
Transsexualism ends when transition ends.

Then why would anyone need TS rights?

TS rights? Rights for only transsexuals? (curious and asking to clarify so I avoid leaping to a conclusion that's unsupported in the statement)

I have to be ready for the fact that there are those who will not see me as female, but as a crazy man in a skirt.

My retired military ID card has a 2D barcode.  The gender marker in the data is M.  The Department of Defense will not change it.  Their argument is that it must reflect what I was at the time of discharge.

I used it to enter Yokota Air Force Base in Tokyo.  The guard used a hand-computer to read the bar code.  He looked at the screen, then my ID card, then my face, then the screen, then my ID card, then my face, then the screen, then my ID card, then my face then (6 iterations in all)  I knew what he was having trouble with.  I just stood there (wearing a grey business dress, BTW.)  Eventually, he handed me my ID card, and said, "Thank you, ma'am.  Have a good evening.

He thought what ever he wanted to think.  It didn't change the fact I have a female brain stuffed in a male body, and that body has been modified as much as medically and financially reasonable to bring it in alignment with who I really am in my mind. 

At the end of his adventure in Cognitive Dissonance, and whatever he decided for himself to think of me, he gave the correct response.  He addressed me respectfully, and with the proper pronouns, and let me enter the base.

I gain nothing trying to hide the fact I'm a male-bodied woman from others.  Whatever they think if they find out isn't going to change who I know me to be.  I do not live (or die) by what others think of me.  If they don't like me, they can damn well go perform aerial intercourse on a rotating pastry.

Karen

Quote from: lisagurl on May 21, 2009, 07:58:57 PM
I take it that you are not an optimist.

No. I am not.

I think I'm a realist. There is as much of a chance of a positive event occurring as there is of a negative one. There is no chance of heaven on earth

There is no chance of heaven on earth

"Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens."  - David Byrne

Quote from: tekla on May 23, 2009, 04:02:29 PM
There is no chance of heaven on earth

"Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens."  - David Byrne

I had that record. Now I have the CD.

Classic stuff

Quote from: tekla on May 23, 2009, 01:07:27 PM

Quote from: Matilda
Transsexualism ends when transition ends.

Then why would anyone need TS rights?

Well tekla, in this case I'd have to agree with the devil's advocate, but suggest that the devil start looking for another advocate if he's gonna ever storm that citadel victoriously.

Transsexualism, like everything else we are aware of in this life, does, indeed, end when transition ends. :) Trouble is, when transition ends individual life as we know it ends as well.

And I'd be willing to bet that Matilda will reply that there is no need for TS or TG rights. Only rights for women and men. Since she prefers one of those two labels rather than others. I would imagine that she also would believe that "rights for women and men" would be a comprehensive way to establish "rights."

I think history shows the lie to that notion.

Nichole

Seems to me what is really being argued then is not rights (things common to all) but rather a privilege, which is a private law, that only works for a few.

Quote
I think I'm a realist. There is as much of a chance of a positive event occurring as there is of a negative one. There is no chance of heaven on earth

Events will happen it is only a subjective judge that determines if they are positive or negative. If you are a realist then you know that you have control of chance or at least the probability. Heaven is a state of mind not a place.

Quote from: lisagurl on May 23, 2009, 05:37:41 PM
Events will happen it is only a subjective judge that determines if they are positive or negative. If you are a realist then you know that you have control of chance or at least the probability. Heaven is a state of mind not a place.

We control very little. Once you've taken your action, the results are out of your hands. Like a baseball for a pitcher.

Quoteleast the probability

QuoteLike a baseball for a pitcher.

Yes that is why some pitchers get paid a whole lot more than others. They control the pitch better.

Sigh, I remember when the Devil picked advocates who were Crazy, Sexy, Cool.  Guess the economic bad times have hit everyone, even the prince of darkness.

A question for Matilda.  Your posts are intelligent and succinct.  I just wonder why you are posting on a trans forum?
I'm out because I transitioned late in life (assuming my life is more than half over...chronologically speaking).  I'm a business owner, and can't go stealth.  Although my transition began at at my advanced age (now 58), I seem to have adjusted well, and pass quite effortlessly.  I don't advertise, but relish the opportunity to help others and educate those willing to learn.
Of course, it is my choice.  We have no duty to help others.  Or,.......do we????  Hmmmmmmmm

Ok, sorry, I have to say it.

Woman is a social concept -- outside physiology. Physiology would be female. Woman is gender role, female is sex.

So one cannot be physiologically or anatomically a woman, nor claim such, since the more accurate statement would be to claim female.

Quote from: dyssonance on May 23, 2009, 11:37:09 PM
Ok, sorry, I have to say it.

Woman is a social concept -- outside physiology. Physiology would be female. Woman is gender role, female is sex.

So one cannot be physiologically or anatomically a woman, nor claim such, since the more accurate statement would be to claim female.

And there you have it...

Still I think we need another term to further define things, yep another label :)  How about transsexualists - those who wish to live their lives as transsexuals.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Matilda on May 24, 2009, 12:26:00 AM


Why? To share my experiences (pre, during, and post-transition, pre-SRS, post-SRS, etc), to teach something (hopefully).  In my experience, I have never had to out myself to teach or educate.  I've always been able to do that without letting others know that I was born transsexual.  It's worked pretty well for me so far, so naturally I plan to keep it up.


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Maybe it's worked from your perspective, but it seems a bit "high handed and self serving" to me.  But, that's from the perspective of someone who is out and active.  Not sure how to educate and help from outside the community.  Just doesn't seem creditable.

Quote from: Matilda on May 24, 2009, 12:40:26 AM
I'm sorry you feel that way.  "Creditable" or not I will keep on doing it as I said. ;)


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Lol, you are quick, and I thought so.  We are all entitled to our opinion.  You expressed yours, and I expressed mine.

I'll give you yet another label, one taken from the best of classical philosophy - and for those of you who can't read Marcus Aurelius in the Latin, Hannibal Lecter says it in The Silence of the Lambs.

Aurelius would ask of us to view everything in its most simple terms.  (much like the concept of pu' in the Tao Te Ching) and to ask ourselves, much as Hannibal asked Clarice, "What is it in itself?"  What is the most basic nature of the thing?  What is its nature?

And you will find when you look at it that way that 'male' and 'female', 'men' and 'women', 'masculine' and 'femine' are not the nature, they are only attributes.  Secondary charatistics that determine nothing of the nature in and of itself.

That thing, that basic nature, is human.

Being a 'man' or 'woman' does not make one better, or worse.  It's just an attribute, like say the color of paint on a car.  Some cars might look better in yellow, others worse - but a yellow car says nothing about how it is in its nature, i.e. how good a car it is.

Again, as Aurelius continues on: Whatever is in any way beautiful hath its source of beauty in itself, and is complete in itself.  As Nichole tried to point out in another post, most misery is that which we, and we alone, bring upon ourselves.  Its a prison of our own construction, and we are free of it the day we decide to cast aside the bars and get on with it.  If we are to be beauty, we find that beauty not from outside, nor from others praise and worship, but simply sitting within ourselves, where it's been all along.

That you choose one path does not make it right, nor other paths wrong - that will be seen in the end as to what creates harmony and projects beauty.  Guard against thinking that you are somehow better - or worse - for in the end neither matter much given the fullness of time.  Or, as good old MA said: Think of the totality of all Being, and what a mite of it is yours; think of all Time, and the brief fleeting instant of it that is allotted to yourself; think of Destiny, and how puny a part of it you are.

Be happy and beautiful in that, everything else works out in the end. Seek to be superior and all your going to find is the low spots.

What a lovely post, tekla. Just beautiful in it's good sense and excellent statement.

And yes, you got to the core of that Telltale Heart.

Self-esteem and self-worth never come through a comparison of one with another, only with "sitting within" one's self and with understanding and being content with one's self in that "totality of all being."

Nichole

I agree with Matilda.

I identify as female. I'm not as far through my journey as her but will be one day. The TG/TS label is, to me, one of convenience. It's a label to seek those with similar expectations. Like the new mothers clubs, stamp collectors (do they still exist?), Breast cancer survivors, Prostate cnace survivors; etc etc. We have a commonality. To my mind it doesn't mean, anything. I don't have the need to run around and say: "Look at me world, I'm a stamp collector" ( damn meant to say transgendered.). I just live, but I'm happy to find a place that people who understand what I'm facing can talk to me, and me to them. That's what I think labels are for.

Have I completely misinterpreted your post?
Wouldn't be the first time :laugh:

Love & Respect
Cindy

QuoteWoman is a social concept -- outside physiology.

Not in everyone's life. Not in every culture, not in every family.  Society and physical gender vary from person to person. It is a prospective not a law. Not everyone has sex, not everyone gets married , not everyone believes, not everyone works at a job, many people do not like or play expected roles.

Cindy,

Its not about running around and saying look at me, I'm transgender.

Or at least, I hope not -- if so, I'm doing it wrong.

Its about recognizing that as someone who has had to transition, in your case, you are special, and unique, and incredible, and that a part of what makes you specia, and unique, and incredible is the fact you are trans -- you had to do that.

You are different. I am different.  Embrace it, love it, wallow in it, live through it, and know that being different is a good thing, a needed thing, an important thing -- and all you have to do is be.

You are not wrong to be different. We may not even want to be different. Hell, I'd give up one arm, both legs, and my eyeballs to be less different at times -- but look how different I will be then.

Instead of seeing that difference as something bad -- which, by extension, makes the act of being different bad -- see it as something good and empowering.

And the great thing is that sometimes being different means you won't agree.

Lisagurl,

Gender in what way? Gender can be a gender role, a gender identity, or a social gender.  The rest is sex -- physiological.

Hi Dyss,

Maybe I did get it wrong. But everyone is different, thank evolution. I'm not totally happy to be different in my gender identity; but I am different in other ways to other people. What's the song? 'Vive le difference' as you can tell french is not a forte :laugh:. I'm happy to celebrate the differences between human beings at all levels. That accepted; do labels add any value? I think that was my point.
There are definitly difference that we rejoice, accept or definitly don't want to have. Not all differences are nice. I'm totally accepting of race, religon, sexual preference and age. One of the saddest meetings I have had was with a gay, effeminate, Aboriginal Australian. He was alcoholic, unemployable, and (if I may be rude) remarkably ugly. I met him because he had just been diagnosed as HIV positive after being raped in prison, and I was doing his blood tests. Not all differences are celebratory. Sorry if I got off the thread Dyss.

Love

Cindy

QuoteLisagurl,

Gender in what way? Gender can be a gender role, a gender identity, or a social gender.  The rest is sex -- physiological.

Physical gender is the genitals . Sex is optional and can even be done with other species or alone. Roles are roles be it occupation, social construct, family member or any number of games people play. Everything is not always black or white. I sure would not want it that way.

Labels allow us to describe to tohers what it is we experience in a manner that they will understand.

Labels seek to be accurate, specific.  There are a hundred different kinds of apple.  But a Macintosh apple is different from a Braeburn apple.

We can all cling to woman, female, human, whatever, but we are still trans.  Maybe not transgender, maybe not transsexual, but trans?  yeah.  We crossed. Or are crossing.  Or will cross.

Doesn't make everyone happy to know that -- but I can't deny that a part of my is black, a part of me is red, a part of me is white. Better I embrace all of them, than do myself a disservice.

Lisa,

Physical Gender?  Have to excuse me, but that's a notion I haven't heard sufficiently described since the late 1960s.

Genitals are physiology -- that's not gender, that's sex. Specifically, that's primary sexual characteristics (which are typically followed by secndary sex characteristics).

So I have to ask you to clarify how you use Gender in this case, adn differentiate it from sex (or are you ignoring the 50 years of evidence that established gender as separate from sex?).

Quote from: dyssonance on May 26, 2009, 02:03:42 PM
Labels allow us to describe to tohers what it is we experience in a manner that they will understand.

Labels seek to be accurate, specific.  There are a hundred different kinds of apple.  But a Macintosh apple is different from a Braeburn apple.

We can all cling to woman, female, human, whatever, but we are still trans.  Maybe not transgender, maybe not transsexual, but trans?  yeah.  We crossed. Or are crossing.  Or will cross.

Doesn't make everyone happy to know that -- but I can't deny that a part of my is black, a part of me is red, a part of me is white. Better I embrace all of them, than do myself a disservice.

Lisa,

Physical Gender?  Have to excuse me, but that's a notion I haven't heard sufficiently described since the late 1960s.

Genitals are physiology -- that's not gender, that's sex. Specifically, that's primary sexual characteristics (which are typically followed by secondary sex characteristics).

So I have to ask you to clarify how you use Gender in this case, adn differentiate it from sex (or are you ignoring the 50 years of evidence that established gender as separate from sex?).

sex

The property or quality by which organisms are classified as female or male on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions.
Either of the two divisions, designated female and male, of this classification.
Females or males considered as a group. The condition or character of being female or male; the physiological, functional, and psychological differences that distinguish the female and the male. See Usage Note at gender. The sexual urge or instinct as it manifests itself in behavior. Sexual intercourse. The genitals.



Gender comprises a range of differences between men and women, extending from the biological to the social. At the biological level, men and women are typically distinguished by the presence of a Y-chromosome in male cells, and its absence in female cells. At the social level, however, there is debate regarding the extent to which the various biological differences necessitate differences in social gender roles and gender identity, which has been defined as "an individual's self-conception as being male or female, as distinguished from actual biological sex

You can debate labels or look at reality.
There are not enough labels to be specific or accurate. Individuals defy type casting.

I agree with Matilda. There are some who want nothing to do with the 'trans' label or community even though they still mingle with others. 

If someone identifies as only male or female, man or woman, then that is what they are. It is an identity thing. I think we do some people wrong by trying to convince them they have been and will always be a transperson.


I agree with lisagurl too.

But then I agree with nearly everybody. I'm wishy-washy and easily influenced, I guess. Or maybe I'm a mirror and I reflect back what others see in and about themselves.

We are a diverse group within our own culture.  Understanding that and accepting and supporting each other, as we are should be what we strive for.  Although new to this forum, I find the same arguments in our local support group.  Certain people are intent on labeling others, and insisting that it defines them.  It just rolls off the backs of many of us, but so many others are fragile, and just growing into themselves, nor do they have the experience or the knowledge to stand up for themselves. It can be disconcerting at the very least for them, and can completely drive them away from a place that is supposed to be safe and supportive. Of course, that's only my take on these issues.

Quote from: Matilda on May 26, 2009, 07:59:54 PM
No, you are what you are, and I am what I am, which is fundamentally different from what you are/believe yourself to be.

Transition is an incredible physical, mental, and emotional journey. One that we all enter into with our own unique backgrounds, circumstances and expectations. So it should not be surprising that "the community" is as diverse as it is.  Still, let's be courteous, and try to avoid the "we", "we", "we" comments please.  Trust me, blanket statements don't work well around these parts.

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It is highly unlikely I will avoid we statements when talking about the wider community (and note that contextually, we are doing precisely that).

You might like to place quotes about the community, in much the same way that opponents of marriage for everyone put them around gay marriage. You do so when speaking of courtesy, though, which is, well, of questionable merit.

However, those minor and insignificant points aside, I have to note that you are not Cis.  It appears unlikely based on your description of your experiences that you are Inter -- you strike me as someone who tends to stick with singularity over plurality in your sense of self.

That makes you trans. Not transgender, not transsexual, just trans.

You may not claim to be such.  That's ok.  I'm not asking you to do so, I'm not expecting you to do so.

Facts is facts, though -- I won't step aside form them to ease someone's personal self vision.

And if blankets statements don't work well, then why did you use four of them?

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Post Merge: May 27, 2009, 04:49:51 PM

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Quote from: lisagurl on May 26, 2009, 08:27:27 PM

You can debate labels or look at reality.
There are not enough labels to be specific or accurate. Individuals defy type casting.

The word reality *is* a label.

So when discussing labels, you are *are* looking at reaity.  And using labels to explain what you perceive to others.

Every noun is a label.

Type casting is something different from labeling -- that's setting up a stereotype -- and *everyone* will do so, based on their own experiences, starting with the first encounter and then growing as the encounter more.

Go ahead and describe something without using a label -- indeed, the label we have here for you is lisagurl, for me, dyssonance.

We all have *many* labels.  dozens. hundreds for some.

The variety comes from the sum of them ;)

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Post Merge: May 27, 2009, 05:54:01 PM

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Quote from: ArleneTgirl on May 27, 2009, 11:12:06 AM
We are a diverse group within our own culture.  Understanding that and accepting and supporting each other, as we are should be what we strive for.  Although new to this forum, I find the same arguments in our local support group.  Certain people are intent on labeling others, and insisting that it defines them.  It just rolls off the backs of many of us, but so many others are fragile, and just growing into themselves, nor do they have the experience or the knowledge to stand up for themselves. It can be disconcerting at the very least for them, and can completely drive them away from a place that is supposed to be safe and supportive. Of course, that's only my take on these issues.

Interestingly enough, the argument over someone being trans or not is a sideline to the cntext of the overall thread, which is discussion of the questions I asked in my post.

The questions go to the heart of one of the things that these arguments dance around -- for example, *why* is it so important for some people to deny being trans?

What's wrong with being trans -- why do they insult everyone else?

Often, the answers arn't really something they are aware of.

Ask those questions in your support group.  Listen to the responses, and then ask *why*.  That's what makes a difference, and what allows people to start to see how their own actions and language maintain a status quo of self defamation and defeatist habits.

Quote from: dyssonance on May 27, 2009, 05:45:15 PM

Interestingly enough, the argument over someone being trans or not is a sideline to the cntext of the overall thread, which is discussion of the questions I asked in my post.

The questions go to the heart of one of the things that these arguments dance around -- for example, *why* is it so important for some people to deny being trans?

What's wrong with being trans -- why do they insult everyone else?

Often, the answers arn't really something they are aware of.

Ask those questions in your support group.  Listen to the responses, and then ask *why*.  That's what makes a difference, and what allows people to start to see how their own actions and language maintain a status quo of self defamation and defeatist habits.

Actually, I never said there was anything wrong with being trans.  The point I was making is that "we" or some individuals are telling them they can't be transexxual because they are non-op, or are a CD because they are not full time, or whatever their particular circumstance is.  It appears that some individuals are intent on setting up a heirarchy based on whatever stage that individual is at.  Debate is educational when done with the right spirit, but to be constantly contrary and take exception with every statement someone makes is negative and certainly contrary to helping and supporting trans people (since this is a trans forum).  I'm sure you will have a come back for this post as well, and I'm beginning to see why people may very well abondon this site for a friendlier place.

QuoteType casting is something different from labeling

No, it is language which has different meanings for you and me. Just as "reality" without qualifiers can mean many things including myth.  Individuals have different experiences and different moral codes. We group with like kind. You are not my like kind so the vague insinuation from your language does not sit comfortably. You seem also to tailor your presentation to what you think people want to hear. That does make you inconsistent and impossible to be close to. Perhaps you think it makes you friends but in many cases it drives people away.

Quote from: ArleneTgirl on May 27, 2009, 07:09:28 PM
Actually, I never said there was anything wrong with being trans.  The point I was making is that "we" or some individuals are telling them they can't be transexxual because they are non-op, or are a CD because they are not full time, or whatever their particular circumstance is.  It appears that some individuals are intent on setting up a heirarchy based on whatever stage that individual is at.  Debate is educational when done with the right spirit, but to be constantly contrary and take exception with every statement someone makes is negative and certainly contrary to helping and supporting trans people (since this is a trans forum).  I'm sure you will have a come back for this post as well, and I'm beginning to see why people may very well abondon this site for a friendlier place.

ArleneTgirl,

Before I continue with the rest, I want to pause a moment and examine something you said.

For one, I never said that *you* said such.  I said *some people* say such -- and asked why. 

Not one of my questions is ever a rhetorical question.  I do not ask such.  I ask a LOT of questions, and I ask them to get answers. I readily admit I'm over educated -- because I ask questions, and I like to hear the answers, even when people don't agree with me.  Sometimes I ask why don't people agree with me on a particular point -- and sometimes the answer is apparent from experience and knowledge.

I am not knocking you, directly.  I have a very specific way of going after these things because I've spent a lot of time considering the sideline argument here, and I am absolutely unsparing in my effort to go deeper into it than is comfortable -- even for me.

Your point:

Quote"The point I was making is that "we" or some individuals are telling them they can't be transexxual because they are non-op, or are a CD because they are not full time, or whatever their particular circumstance is.  It appears that some individuals are intent on setting up a heirarchy based on whatever stage that individual is at. "

is what I am agreeing with.

I disagree that they should be doing such.  There are transfolk, and cisfolk and folks who are inbetween.

Some folks like the old labels of man and woman. Those are fine -- they are welcome to them.  But they are not the only options out there, and the science is far beyond that point.

I do occasionally ask easy questions.  Usually I ask hard ones.  The harder, the more you want to avoid it as the questions I asked someone else were avoided, the more important, ultimately, that question is to them.

The posting that followed the referenced on up is called "because".  IT explains why I asked those questions, and in truth, they are not simple or easy questions.  People don't like it when they have it pointed out to them that they are doing things that undermine their own sense of self worth.

My history, as many here can attest, lol, is one of standing up for CD's -- even though I admit I don't understand, I don't get it.  I don't need to get it to stand up for them.  I stand up for genderqueer and androgynes.  I stand up for non-ops, post ops, pre-ops, transsexual, transvestites whatever -- They are kith and kin.

hell, I've even stood up for Ms. Platine, and she and I are sorta mortal enemies.

Do I cut through certain arguments without sparing feelings? Yes.  I am not nice.  I freely admit such.  I am kind, however.

Lisagurl,

If language has different meaning, then we are not speaking the same language.  IF we aren't doing that, we aren't communicating.

I'm not interested in making friends, if I were, I'd be substantially less disliked. I'm interested in far more critical thought and my particular areas of sociology, psychology, and religion.  Or, as was noted one day, sex, drugs, and rock and roll.

Its my cross.  Balsa wood, though, so I can hang.

Matilda,

The greatest things about forums is you can always avoid discussions where you are uncomfortable. This is why you don't see me running hither and yon here making all manner of commentary.

I avoid involvement in things I am ignorant on -- and implacable otherwise.

Oh, and a decent devil's advocate would go on to the bitter end.  Trust me -- its been my role for a while.

I don't identify as nothing else but female either.

Quote from: dyssonance on May 27, 2009, 10:22:41 PM
My history, as many here can attest, lol, is one of standing up for CD's -- even though I admit I don't understand, I don't get it.  I don't need to get it to stand up for them.  I stand up for genderqueer and androgynes.  I stand up for non-ops, post ops, pre-ops, transsexual, transvestites whatever -- They are kith and kin.

hell, I've even stood up for Ms. Platine, and she and I are sorta mortal enemies.

Thanks for saying this Dyssonance! This is how I endeavor to live as well. I'm one of those who lives in between (or outside) binary gender, but I defend the right of all trans, cis and other people to identify as they choose, and make conscious effort to understand why they identify as they do.

Z

To Dyssonance:  Sorry if I misread your reply.  Your topics certainly bring forth discussions.  Being the facilitator of a support group, my role is to make people comfortable in their transition.  It's hard to change that mind set at times, and I tend to go into "protect mode".  Of course, this topic was meant to make us think, and it has done that.

ArleneTgirl,

no need to apologize!  I'm just glad that you let me know, as that's the most important part of dialog -- making sure you understand each other :D

One flaw I have is that I think way too much at times.

There is an old skill I learned many many years ago. ITs called the 5 why's.  Take an answer to any one of the questions, and then ask a new why question about that answer.  Then you do it the same to the next answer.  THen again to the one after that. In the end, you go five levels deep.

The skill comes in knowing what to ask about, and in being able to see when people start to circle back. Usually that's around the third level, when people suddenly reference an earlier answer as the answer to the question, or they avoid it.  That means you've hit a point where there is something to learn. The goal is to get to 5 levels, because that's where you learn something new about whatever you are talking about.

when I was in my 20's, I used it to learn about myself, following the old dictum "Know Thyself".

It wasn't until I hit my 40's, though, that I escaped denial using it -- and I was so deep it took 15 levels and a week of working at it hard.

So I ask a lot of questions (21 to 105, 105 to 525, 525 to 3125, etc).  But in the course of asking, you get some really awesome answers.

When you ask questions, people get upset.

When you ask a lot, you get used to it :)

Quote from: Fer on May 28, 2009, 05:47:20 AM
I don't identify as nothing else but female. Not Ts, Tg or trans, just female.  The epiphany I've had of late is that the language we use to describe ourselves and our situations is either for or against us.  I've realised that I've always been female & that you can't educate someone into accepting you and you can't be a woman by explaining how you used to have a dick, or how you used to be male, or how you're a male 2 female transsexual.  Society and individuals will regard you as male with an explanation such as that. Simple as that.  Because EVERYONE knows that a male can never turn into a female.  And no one can understand that we've always been female.  I've stopped trying to educate people because they'll never get it & I need to get on with my life & live it before I get too bloody old.

There's an article that speaks for itself:

http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/disclosure.html (http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/disclosure.html)

the thing is, i really like trans people. i don't think of them as freaks. and if someone says they're trans, i don't mark that as a negative.

i also agree with Tekla, that the heart of the matter is being human, uh, but i would diverge a little at the identity thing, because at some level, i *need* to mark myself as female, as a necessary point of self-recognition.

as for what other people wish to call me, that is up to them. i am not doing this for them.

-ell

Quote from: Fer on May 28, 2009, 05:47:20 AM
I don't identify as nothing else but female. Not Ts, Tg or trans, just female.  The epiphany I've had of late is that the language we use to describe ourselves and our situations is either for or against us.  I've realised that I've always been female & that you can't educate someone into accepting you and you can't be a woman by explaining how you used to have a dick, or how you used to be male, or how you're a male 2 female transsexual.  Society and individuals will regard you as male with an explanation such as that. Simple as that.  Because EVERYONE knows that a male can never turn into a female.  And no one can understand that we've always been female.  I've stopped trying to educate people because they'll never get it & I need to get on with my life & live it before I get too bloody old.

There's an article that speaks for itself:

http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/disclosure.html (http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/disclosure.html)

Fer,

only a couple of points in response to your post.

1 - Most people who are aware of my history do not regard me as a man.  So, to start off with, that assertion is false.

2 - And I always knew that a male could turn into a female.  So that's another one.

Then again, I've always been different -- and usually an exception to the rules.  Which never proves a rule -- it merely means it needs to be looked at more closely.

I never stop trying to educate people, though. Its pretty much the only thing I do these days.  And I can because it makes me happy to do so.

If it doesn't make you happy, then you probably shouldn't do it.

Quote from: dyssonance on May 27, 2009, 10:22:41 PM
-- They are kith and kin.

hell, I've even stood up for Ms. Platine, and she and I are sorta mortal enemies.

So, I take it from this statement Ms. (isn't it actually Rev.?) Platine is the ultimate expression of opposition to your viewpoint and all things TG?

Quote from: transheretic on May 29, 2009, 11:07:09 AM
So, I take it from this statement Ms. (isn't it actually Rev.?) Platine is the ultimate expression of opposition to your viewpoint and all things TG?

Now, now C, that's a leap of conclusion without foundation.

Ultimate?  Nah.  An Expression? yes.  But ya gotta admit we are rather, um, polarized.

(Oh, and Monica and Polar said really nice things about you in DC)

I went through Phoenix Seminary and eight years of teaching in the Rule of Fives myself, so I *could* have,  but that's a title I don't even give myself.

Anyway, hi :D