Susan's Place Transgender Resources

This is not something we typically want to talk about.  It seems it comes up only when somebody is contemplating it.  These thoughts are bottled up until they can no longer stay bottled up.  And then the unthinkable happens.

I once read that the mortality rate from suicide amongst transsexuals is 50%.  This is a subject that needs to be addressed, over and over.

I don't want this thread to be about me but I must start it with my own experiences and the more we share our experiences the more people we potentially help. 

In June of 2004 I ended a ten year suppression.  I kept Julie bottled up totally and completely.  I had convinced myself it was for the good of my children who were just entering puberty.  I thought it would help my marriage thrive too.  And I didn't think it was that big a deal to do.  I was dead wrong on all accounts!

I knew Be-All was held here most years and I asked my wife if she was okay with me going.  The look of surprise on her face was later verbally confirmed when she told me she thought I was "cured".  With her approval (what else could she say?) I went.  It was absolutely wonderful!  From Friday afternoon to Sunday morning I was me, but I had no idea that I was being me, I thought I was being Julie, an alter ego, or something like that.

Sunday morning I awoke still dressed from the night before.  I didn't have much for clothes then and I just couldn't go back to Jim any sooner than necessary.  Then I began to pack.  Checkout time was 11 AM, only an hour away.  All of the sudden reality hit.  I had to go back to being Jim and keeping Julie bottled up.  I couldn't bear the thought.  I dropped to the floor and cried... for three full hours.  I stopped only because I knew I had to.  I could have cried for days.  Then I realized I can't keep Julie in a bottle any longer and I called my wife and told her that.  She told me I needed help but didn't say it in a loving caring way, she was yelling at me like a parent would to a rebellious teenager.  All I wanted to hear was, "Jim, I love you.  Come home.  Everything will be okay."  It would have meant the world to me.  It was what I needed.  But she's never been strong person emotionally.  When things get tough she calls in somebody else to handle it.  Her response left me feeling she didn't care about me, that our marriage was a farce.

What followed was the worst time of my life.  Divorce, my kids not wanting to be around me, and one son not even talking to me.  He'd walk right past me like I didn't exist.  I got involved with a TG who I later realized was a coke addict.  I did coke back in the early 80's.  It was expensive then and considered a harmless luxury drug so I thought nothing of it when she offered me a line.  What I loved about it was I was able to stay up all night and enjoy being Julie longer.  It became part of my Julie outings. 

About a year & a half ago I was out all night, again.  I was out of work then, my marriage was coming to an end and family life was already destroyed so I saw no reason to pretend anymore.  I was just expressing my femme self, so I thought.  I got home around 6 AM and my wife was getting ready for work.  She was completely cold now and this was freaking me out.  I was drunk and high on coke that morning.  I tried to get some emotion out of her but she acted like she could care less. 

Then, out of desperation, I took some of her Zoloft pills.  I think it was six pills total.  I was laying down on the couch and as she was about to leave for work when I told her what I did.  I expected her to be concerned or worried.  That's the woman I married. a loving, caring woman.  But instead she yelled at me then left for work.  I was blown away!  I thought I could be dying here and all she could think about was she was running late for work.  I still shake my head to this day.  What was she thinking?

Thinking no one cared about me anymore I poured myself a vodka tonic and went back upstairs to get the remainder of her Zoloft.  I sat on the top of the stairs, drink in one hand and the pills in the other.  I began to take them, one at a time.  What did it matter?  No one cared about me anymore.  Not my wife, not my kids, not my siblings, not even my mother.  I had no job, no family, no friends.  I had no reason to live.

I heard the door from the garage open and soon I saw my wife standing at the bottom of the stairs.  She told me someone from work told her she'd better go back home to make sure I was okay.  She had to be told that?  (Another thing I still don't understand.) 

She saw me there with her bottle of Zoloft and a drink and yelled at me, again.  There was no love, no caring, I was just being a problem to her.  Then she said she was calling 911.  I thought about it for a minute then decided I was getting the hell out of there.  I started to walk out the door and the paramedics were already there.  I told them about being TG and about my family abandoning me and how this was just a cry for help that went unanswered.  The guy I talked to was very understanding but said we needed to go to the hospital.

I threw up on the way there which I later found rid my system any Zoloft.  But once there they had me swallow charcoal which caused me to throw up some more.  Something I don't ever want to do again.  I was admitted to intensive care and hooked up to a gazillion machines.  Going to the bathroom, I looked like the bionic man.  The next day they stationed a guard in my room.  I asked him why and he said to make sure I don't try to commit suicide again.  I later found out he had nothing to do that day so they sent him to my room.  Shawn and I talked a lot and soon became close.

I decided to admit myself to the psych ward.  I feared my insurance wouldn't cover this if I went against medical advice so I agreed to follow the doctor's recommendation.  I'm happy I did.  It got me away from the bad influences in my life and helped break some very bad habits.

I was only there for three days but in that three days I had gone from totally depressed to totally happy.  I usually read self help books when I recognize that I'm down but this time I had forgotten them.  I absorbed several books while I was there.  I also participated in group sessions and soon found myself helping others with their problems.  I wondered if I had missed my calling.  The day I left, Shawn walked me out of the hospital.  He said he wished I didn't have to go.  We hugged and I knew I made a friend for life.

What I learned from this experience is no one benefits from suicide.  If you are successful, you leave behind countless people who now have a hole in their heart.  And they will have to live with that their entire life. 

Suicide is a selfish act.  The only thing it accomplishes is adding more pain to the lives of those who love you.  And no matter what you are feeling, there are many people who will be hurt by your death, especially when it's from your own hand. 

I also learned escaping with drugs and alcohol doesn't solve anything.  It only postpones the inevitable and adds even more to one's problems. 

It was a tough time in my life but I survived and I learned a lot.  If my experience can prevent even one suicide it was more than worth going through all I did.

I hope others will share their experience with suicide.  Maybe together this will help someone and prevent another suicide attempt.

I so sorry you had to experience this Julie. *HUGS*  Having an understanding (even if not supportive) can make all the difference in the world.  I'm glad you are still alive and finally transitioning.

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 10, 2006, 09:26:02 AM
What I learned from this experience is no one benefits from suicide...The only thing it accomplishes is adding more pain to the lives of those who love you.  And no matter what you are feeling, there are many people who will be hurt by your death, especially when it's from your own hand.

A very profound statement indeed.  And sometimes you don't even really realize this until somebody you love attempts suicide themselves.

Melissa

Hi Julie Marie,

I'm sorry for this and I understand very much your experience.

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 10, 2006, 09:26:02 AM

Suicide is a selfish act.  The only thing it accomplishes is adding more pain to the lives of those who love you.  And no matter what you are feeling, there are many people who will be hurt by your death, especially when it's from your own hand. 

What you say is totally right and it is something I agree totally. Morever I tell that I was used to think and to say that suicide is essentially an act of cowardly. But I would be a liar if I tell you that it is something I have never seriously considered in my life, however when I have been *very* depressed. I have to say that the love I have for the few SO that give a meaning to my life is what stopped me.
What I fear the most is depression. When I got depressed the perspective of my life looks totally different and what is usually rationally clear become very obfuscated. In my experience, I can say I am still alive because till now the balance between the negative feelings induced by depresion and the sum of positive ones has never been negative.
So, now I never undestimate the sings of depression and I have someone to seek help and advice when clouds are covering my sky.

P.S.
My English is poor so, if you like, feel free to correct coarse mistakes via e-mail, thanks!

Oh! Julie!
You just shut that door in my face.
:'(
Jillieann

Julie,

It's good to share your experiences.  You get it out and there is a release.  I agree with you hon. 

Unfortunately, for those of us that are successful, the cry for help is usually never expressed.  A friend, a husband, a loved one just ends up dead.  In some cases, those left behind don't have a clue.

I do know that many of us here have experiences similar to yours.  We are embarrassed to share.  We don't want people to know of our weakness.  And for those who have not tried it, we have contemplated it, we have planned it, it is a path we consider viable.

I know that you will never consider this again.  It's not in your personality now.  I don't know what it takes to elevate us to that next plateau; where the machine shifts gears. AT that point there is no going back.  But that change happens and it has happened to you.

I too encourage everyone who reads this thread to take care of this if you have a problem. If you even consider suicide on occassion, please make sure you discuss it with your therapist. Believe me, it is a common theme.  It is not unusual.  They will not condem you for it.  They can only help you.

If you haven't read "Rise from the fall" in my Chronicles, please do so.  There are 5 parts.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,107.0.html

This is my personal account of my time in the looney bin.  It starts out pretty bad... but I'll tell you in advance there's a good ending. ;) I see no need to repeat any of it here.

Julie, I'm thrilled that you have found us here.  You bring a special spirt of joy and enthusiasm which we sorely need.  So, keep it coming doll.

Cindi

I can totally relate to the "hole in the heart" left by suicide.  I knew there was something going on with my dad.  I honestly thought it was drugs.  I even attended an AA support group for families of those addicted.  On May 22, 2000 at around 4 am, my 7th wedding anniversary, I was awakened to a relentless banging.  The banging first began on my front door then moved to my bedroom window.  I immediately jumped out of bed and said "Oh my God, my dad's here" thinking this time of morning he would be so messed up that this couldn't be good.  I looked out the window and couldn't make out who was there.  Then a flashlight shone up on the two police officers.  I fell to the ground and said "Oh my God, my dad is dead".  With my husband's help, I made it to the livingroom where he showed the officers to me.  We were told that my dad had been in the hospital for two days.  He had shot himself in the head and survived, if that's what you want to call it.  We got ready and dropped the baby off with the sitter and headed for our anniversary in Hell! 

My father was in and out of consiousness.  I think he was aware we were there.    There were bullet fragments sitting in a specemin jar in the hospital window.  The detective came to collect them.  It was then we found out about my dad's other life.  Not the FtM life.  We already accepted that.  We learned that he was cheating on my step mother.  He rented a home for this other woman, had a PO box where the bills came to, the telephone was in his name.  He thought it was time for them to take their relationship to the next level so he came out to her.  She totally rejected him.  It was more than he could bare.  My step mother had already broken him down over the years.  She would verbally abuse him and call him "sex change" whenever they would argue.  I imagine the rejection and hurt he felt was....more than I could ever imagine, I'm sure.  Anyway, he went out to his truck, got a gun, returned to the livingroom and shot himself. 

Pretty soon his insurance lapsed due to lack of employment.  We had already decided on comfort care for him.  There was no use keeping him alive when he would never have the ability to function more than being able to give us a "thumbs up" or "thumbs down".  He wouldn't want to live like that.  We could not afford the outrageous cobra payments so we brought my dad home under hospice care.  The nurse would come out on Saturdays and do an assessment and order our supplies/medications.  I managed an internal medicine office at the time.  During the week, my step mother would provide his basic care during the day then I would come in at night and do the physical care; change medication patches and clean and repack his bed sores. 

Almost three months later, Monday, August 16, 2000 my dad died.  That was one of the hardest days of my life.  For so long I kept asking myself "why wasn't I enough to make him want to live"  and "If I wasn't enough, why wasn't my son".  Now I know, it wasn't about me.  It still hurts.  It still hurts bad.  I smell him sometimes when I'm alone.  I'm glad I can still smell him, but it does keep that hole wide open.

Oh Gin, I just read this.  I'm so sorry you had to have such a tragic experience.  Hugs.

You are right in that suicide isn't about trying to hurt others, but to escape from the pain of our lives.  Sometimes the pain becomes so intense, it is unbearable and it clouds our thinking where the only thing we can see are all these bad things happening.  I know, because that is how I've felt when I've been suicidal.  The trick is to escape out from under those black clouds so that we can see the good in our lives once again.

Melissa

Gin, that was an eloquent story from one left behind. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. Nobody should have to.

My friend's son killed himself at 14 and all of us wondered what more we could have done. It was heartbreaking. The truth is, nothing. He didn't reach out for help, so we didn't know to give it. If I could have the knowledge I have now and go back in time, I would do everything.

Dennis

Thank you for your kind words.  I had to work very hard to come to terms with my father's death.  That doesn't mean it has stopped hurting.  It has eased, but I don't want it to stop hurting.  I think about him everyday.  Now I must move forward and work on bringing purpose to both his life and his death.  Everyone has a purpose here in this world.  I believe he died before he could fulfill his.  I am going to carry on in his name.

Ginger,
     That is way sad. I know someone who is suicidal, and I have to say it is a helpless feeling when you know that one day they just might do it, and you can't change that. The one's they love are suppose to be enough to mske them want to stay alive, and work things out. I guess they just don't know how. Thanks for sharing that, I am so sorry for your loss.

                                              Marco

I hope others will share their experience with suicide.  Maybe together this will help someone and prevent another suicide attempt.
=================
\if I thought for 10 seconds...someone would benefit....just 1 person...I would give precise details of the event of feb 1973...when the ole man used the shotgun...but I fear the house censors would not allow it.

lemme say this much...
it ain't pretty.

Hi Julie

Here is a post I made in another forum on May 12, 2004.

Quote from: Elizabeth May 2004

Last night was not real good. I could not get to sleep and was really depressed. I was thinking like my old self. I was feeling ashamed, and regretful. I was thinking about how humiliating this was going to be for my children as they grow up. And basically to accept me, you would have to accept the humiliation. I decided that it was not fair of me to put that on them. They could cash in my life insurance, I could end the pain of both my illness and being a transsexual. So I took about 20 vicodine. And 30 mins after that, I took about 15 more. But I never fell asleep. And at 6:00 my wife woke the children up and I went from the couch to the bedroom. I don't know why 35 vicodin did not kill me. I mean I never checked to see how much it takes, but it said not to exceed 6 in a 24 hour period. Anyway, at about 7:00 am i told my wife because i was getting nauseous and and I was not dead. Obviously she wanted me to go to the hospital but I talked her out of it, because they will take my pain medication away, and she knows how hard it is for me without it.
I have spent the day throwing up and sleeping and feel much better now. I have also been thinking about what happened to me. It is really mental. My male personality was willing to die, to kill Elizabeth. That is what really happened. But he could not keep control, and I told my wife. And now I feel like I have a split personality almost. Like it is Elizabeth and my male persona. And as I look back in time, I can clearly see what peronality was doing what. Elizabeth was always suppressed, but she was still there. I am sure you all know what I mean. I think the suicide attempt was the last try to stop her from emerging. Anyway, I feel this duality now, and am attemting to deal with it the best I can. Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated.
Elizabeth

This was when I was first coming out of denial and facing the loss of my marriage and children most likely.  I had already had to quit working because of illness.  I knew I could not keep it a secret any longer and I was not going to be able to keep living as a man.

How things can change.  SS approved my disability, two of my kids stayed with me and all of them accept my transsexuality.  I won almost all of the marrital property.  I met and subsequently married a wonderful and accepting woman that I just adore and she claims to adore me and has no problem with me transitioning.  I have gone back to college and got goverment grants that help pay for it. Between my SS and Pell grants, I almost make as much money as I did before I became disabled.

I am living my dream.  I am married to an accepting woman and feel tremendous love in my life, I am living as a woman and I am going to college to become a lawyer.  Everything I always dreamed of doing.  But had I succeeded in killing myself that fateful day, I would have missed the best part of my life. And if all that were not enough, I know the best is yet to come.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Veronica06....
  You are Correct ! they can't take that here... people like you and I have to bite our toung and use "GOOD WORDS" <grin>
... we must keep it clean for all... even though Life isn't purdy ... its the price we pay to post here !.... <GRIN>
...
  My experience with Suicide was a bit diferent... Not because of Gender ishues as I am happy being who I am.... its just that I am unable to "work for somebody" anymore...
I know this may sound strange, and I got the impression that the doctor thought it was odd as well, but it was as serious as a hart attack...
Depression ?  Man I didn't even reconise what the word ment at the time... I was too busy liveing, trying to pay the bills with too little of income comeing in and too much going out.... oddly enough ...just like it is today ! <grin> but to make a long story short... I was fed up...angry and totally hateing my job...but I had to work... thats what men do... they go to work and provide for their families... well I couldn't do that any more...every day was torture.... all day long... And I couldn't say what I was thinking or I'ed get fired again, and I have been fired from every job in the county as it was for being truthfull... but Bosses don't want the truth they want sheep, so I had to be a sheep..and it was killing me ...
I can't express how much I hated the idea of going to work another day... but I would have done anything to have someone take my place so I could stay home... but that wasn't about to happen... so On my way to work one morning I pulled off to the side of the road
to let some faster trafic pass and take a short brake... and I got to thinking why not end it ? its easy... it'll be fast( or should be) and i won't have to go to work...
it seamed such a wonderfull idea... one bullet and no more problems.... that'll show those jurks at work how stupid they realy are... after all I can go on like this for the rest of my life... there is no end in sight, the bills keep getting deeper and the money less and less,  no one would miss me , and I wouldn't have to face this stuff any more.
the gun was in my hand the round in the chamber and the safty purpusly switched off...
I sat there for a good 20 minutes stareing at the pistle in my lap... with my hand on the grip and finger on the trigger, all i had to do was do it... and I wasn't afrade...
oh contrair ! Infact I wanted to do it !... but an empty ness filled me at that moment..
no bills No hate for work or life in general... just the gun in my hand and silance...
then it hit me what I was doing.... I hadn't even realised it up to that point, not realy
because up to that point I was fixing a problem...in my usual Gutsy "Helbent for lether" way.... I thought well heck if killing myself will cure the problem then lets do it !
and I could without any reservations... except that doubt in the back of the mind
what if ???   what if....  what if I do Kill myself ? then what ?  the wife will be sad, yah yah, I know all that, all those that love me will be devistated at my untimely demize !  I know that already !  thats not enough reason ?  NO its not... I can't do this any more... then seak help stupid because what your trying to do is no answer. ...
these were my thoughts... the tears were clouding my vision and I saw the logic in the last thought... I put the gun away and drove to town... crying most of the way... but i didn't go to work I went to my doctor... when I was called into his little room and he finally arrived he said what can I do for you today Bob...? I said well its like this...
and explained what happened on the way in this morning... so I'm seaking help Doc what can ya tell me ... he said quit your job , I said I already did that... 
a year later and a dozen doctor visits later I was on SSI and classed as disabled
you cannot amagon how good that felt to finally be on SSI so I didn't have to go find another job. 
.....
  You don't have to be a TS or have gender ishues to make you vulnerable to suiside...
and it is NOT a cowards way out  in my view, it takes alot of gutts to do yourself in...
and Yes I could have and still Can do it if I realy wanted to . but I don't want to Now...  its like I've been reborn and every day is a new day... i still have the nasty bills and too little of income comeing in to cover them, but I've learned not to care !
Killing myself that morning would not have cured a thing.... it would have only put me out of my misery for the time being... I would have devistated my family because they had no idea I was having problems at all. 
  I won't say that life is a bed or roses now because its still a royal pain in the backside at times....  but at least I don't have to go to work for a liveing and face that torture every day. so in that respect Life is now worth liveing where it wasn't before ! ....
  Suiside is no answer ! to contemplate it means you should seek help ! and there is Help out there !   help I had no idea exhisted. 
....
Bob......

My neighbour just tried to hang himself in the garage yesterday. He had no pulse and wasn't breathing when his wife found him and cut him down. He seems to be alright, physically, but he's under care at the moment. Seeing her face after she found him really brought home to me how horrible suicide is for the people left behind.

That was his second attempt that I know of. I really hope he finds a way to deal with his depression.

Dennis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My neighbour just tried to hang himself in the garage yesterday. He had no pulse and wasn't breathing when his wife found him and cut him down. He seems to be alright, physically, but he's under care at the moment. Seeing her face after she found him really brought home to me how horrible suicide is for the people left behind.

That was his second attempt that I know of. I really hope he finds a way to deal with his depression.

Dennis
===============

hey?  write me email..i'll tell ya MY experience............1st hand..........

The odd and scary thing is that people who are *successful* at suicide rarely give any warning. People who constantly "attempt" and threaten it are usually pleading for help, it seems - they haven't given up.

My best friend from around 12-14 put a gun to his head and killed himself (he had recently moved away). No warning. No notes. He didn't seem depressed to me when I knew him, wasn't outwardly sad, distraught, nothing.

My coworker's son put a shotgun in his mouth two years ago and pulled the trigger. He was the jokester of the family, always making everyone laugh, and always wearing a smile. No note. No clues. No obvious depression. No warning signs. The suicide was shocking enough, but the brutality of the method he chose was disturbing... as his family did love him. They got along. So why he felt a need to make such a statemtent... to punish them by forever etching that image in their minds... no one knows.

I've never seriously contemplated it. Oh, I do understand the dispair, the trapped feeling with no hope, no future. But at some point, *so far*, a circuit breaker will snap in my mind and... I keep going. I lived long enough to know that You Just Never Know. In fact, the mantra I chant every day, ending every negative thought with is...

"And yet..."

That's what I'm thinking Kate, that it was a cry for help. Otherwise he would have chosen a place he wouldn't be found or he would have done it when she wasn't home. She works and he's retired, so there would have been plenty of opportunity otherwise.

The fact that he nearly succeeded is scary though. I'm going to make more of an effort to go over and talk to him. Usually we just chat when I'm walking the dog past his place or we're both working in the same areas in our yards.

Dennis

Well, the closest I ever came was on the night of Wednesday May 10, 2006.

The previous monday, I found out the marriage was definitely over.  I was in pain for the next 2 days.  On Wednesday, I had had a really hard day.  That night, my gender dysphoria was really intense and coupled with the pain I was going through with my marriage being over, I intended to kill myself.  The pain had become too intense.  I was ready to die right then.  I told my wife I was going to kill myself and she was like "whatever", because she decided not to take me seriously.  So, I left the room and I took a big torque wrench and smashed one of those corelle plates that are really sharp when broken and was about to slash my wrist. It cuts better than a razor. I took a larger sliver and went downstairs to cut myself beyond repair. My ex heard the plate break and ran down in time to stop me.  She had to forcefully take the piece out of my hand before I could cut myself. I left the house after that. That was the closest I have ever come to really killing myself.  Afterwards, I went out in the car and drove around for a while.  The pain stayed with me.  As far as I was concerned, I had died and I was living a new life.

Melissa

I killed myself a couple of times.  It didn't take.  So I finally gave up trying. ;)

Cindi

I have been there to... the scar on my neck not from my tracheal shave, but from the rope I tried to hang myself with.

A constant reminder of how wrong I was. It was so easy to give in, try and take my life.

The hard, courageous thing was accepting and moving forward.

I am glad I did that.

Becky

It's amazing isn't it?

The number of responses that came from this one-word topic. The only thing that even begins to run a close second are the words gym class--LOL.

There's no doubt about it-- life is rough for people in our situation. I was hospitalized (locked) in a psych unit 3 times because of being suicidal. That's not counting the times and attempts (unsucessful- obviously) that no one knew about.

I know most of you have differing opinions than me, but I believe that God holds a special place in His heart for us, He knows how difficult it is for us. I believe it is because of Him and some special friends He's placed in my life (angels) is the reason I'm still here. The good news is that He loves us whether we believe He does or not.

I've also heard the suicide rate amonst us is 50%. I believe it is now starting to decline. I must say how grateful I am for the brave souls who went before me who opened the pathways in order for me to do this, just as we have also helped those who will be or are following us.

I hope the young men and women on here know how fortunate they are to be doing this early in their lives and will therefore have less baggage (and history) to carry with them.

Take care and God bless all of you,
Scott

One thing I have learned through this life is Just how Tough Life is to kill off...
no this isn't a plesent thought but its the truth... Life in itself wants to live
thats its purpose... even if its realy messed up it still wants to keep on going.
weather our brains think the same or not is immeterial.  so its harder to Kill your self than you first think. chances are you will be unsuccessfull... then where will you be at ?
perhaps crippled ? perhaps 3/4 brain dead and a burdon to others ?  this is a serious subject and demands serious answers, the answer is don't even attempt it !  you will just make things worse. so grin and bear it and  struggle through !
...
  I am torn between saying its easy for a person that has enough intestinal fortitude to kill ones self, and saying its alot harder than you think !
by that I mean  even though you have the guts to do the act it doesn't mean you will be successfull... and a failed attempt only adds to your even lower self esteam.. you could wind up in a worse siduation than you are now and still be alive without any ability to attempt to do yourself in again ! ... then you WOULD be in a liveing hell !
...
this isn't a scare tactic... this is the truth... look at all the posts of people that have attempted sewiside ... what makes you think you are smarter than they are ?  don't you think they KNEW what they were doing at the time ?   so instead of risking putting yourself in a much worse siduation, don't even attempt it in the first place.
if things are that tough for you get OUT and GET AWAY.... some times we need a brake  just to survive.  if that means running off , then so be it !
that is better than sewer-side by far.
( Sewerside by the way is defined as jumping in the torlet and flishing it!)<grin>
...
my 2 coppers
Bob........

One of the strongest arguments I've ever heard against suicide is how selfish it is seen by those who survive it.  And if you think about it, it's true.  It may be the most selfish act we can take.

We are a community of almost totally selfless people.  We have given up who we really are in hopes of making those we love happy.  Our happiness has always been secondary at best.  Geez, it is any wonder why we want to give up and decide to cash in the chips?

Well, yes, there is a reason.  Just take a moment to appreciate the wonderful people here.  See how they want to help.  See how they are there for you.  It doesn't matter if you are FTM ot MTF, this is a great group united.  Where else can you get that?

When thoughts of suicide creep into your mind, think of how you would feel if someone you became attached to decided to commit suicide.  We are in a cyber world (which makes it worse) but that doesn't diminish the fact we are closely united.  Suicide is selfish because you left this world without consideration of me, because you took your own life without thinking about all of those who love you.  You never gave us a chance to talk to you, to understand why you feel the need to leave and most importantly to say goodbye.  Yeah, suicide is selfish. And I am being selfish because I want you in my life, forever.

I often wondered about things and the post bob posted and Julie Maries recent post!  everyones situation is different and some came close others not close at all.  I was one of those ones who in theory did everything right and yet bullet fragments missed all vital parts of my heart? go figure, after the recovery which i had a lot of time spiritually to reflect with God i was unsure and still not sure now?
How does this work???????????????
At this very moment a horrible accident could tragically take the life of a mother on a street corner or a father on his way home from a late day at work, a whole family travelling in  a car going to their in laws, a murderous rapist could be killing (probably is) someone in some city right now?  A liquor store robbery gone bad a person gets shot and dies?  a baby born still birth, dead....
Cancer strikes down a mother in her prime leaving her husband and family behind?
A shelf of heavy paints gives way in a large department store and curshes a shopper to death by sheer accident?
Please i wish i knew or understood how this worked?
I was going to well i am goign to do a new post on the subject of dying, but for the life of me I do not understand how some poeples are taken from this world when they do not wanna leave it and others who all but pray for the end do not get it?????
Ricki

Ricki   you can look for meaning in anything you want ... but that doesn't mean you'll find reason in it.
a roll of the dice, being in the right spot at the wrong time.... providence, forordination... gods will.... fate....
call it what you like ... if there is a reason for it I doubt you'll find it this side of death, and then perhaps not even after.
How does it work ? its Random ! thats not an elegant statement, its not philosophical but it does however work that way.... life is a roll of the dice... some get a rather crummy roll while others get the lucky numbers... why ?   People have been trying to answer that for centuries... thats where religons come in at .... why do you have to know how it works in the first place ? because you are courious ? because you think its too controled to be just a roll of the dice ?  there is realy no answer to your question as to how life works
it just does... it does it in very strange ways... accept life for what it realy is and don't try to cover the harsh reality with the flowers of religon or cover it with the tarp of forgitfullness...  Accept it.  plane and simple, it isn't hard to do at all
but it is accnolageing that Bad things happen to the good.... good things happen to the bad.... it is all in how YOU the viewer Precieve it.... and all the time life goes on about you... paying you no heed at all .... constantly moveing, constantly growing...
it isn't a bad thing, it isn't a good thing... it just is ...
...
Like i try to tell my wife, its like the lion in Africia he hunts and kills to survive...  this lion kills a gazell , its not meanness, its not because of spite, he does it to survive... it just is...
the Gazell died to feed the lion cubs they grow and soon join the hunt and kill more gazell, not out of anger or spite but to survive.   why must they do this in order to survive ?  because that is the way life is.... its nasty , its brutal, its harsh and its buitiful and its fantastic beyond words....
for a good side there is a bad side,  it all ballances out... to be dust in the end
if you want to understand life then Look at it, in all its forms, don't take someone elses words for it... do it yourself... you will be inriched by doing so!.
Life can be good or life can be bad.... you can change the bad into good or change the good into bad.... its up to you, if you set on your laurels and watch life go by it most definately will pass you by... again... its up to you weather or not you want to be happy in this life or not... you have to control it enough to make that happen.
if you wait for fate or God  or hoodini to do it for you you will miss the boat.
life is no picknic... its a tough time most of the time... there are peeks of joy every now and again that make it all worth while.... but remember YOU make those peeks happen
its not fate, its not designed that way...
I suppose if you just sat back and let life go by and watched it you'ed have those random peeks of joy anyway....as well as the sorrows... thats just how it is... but you can make more joy in your life and in the lives of others if you work at it...nobody said it was easy... I just said it can be done !
...
My 2 coppers !
Bob..........

  I will add my experience with attempting. I don't really expect anyone to believe it as most just ridicule it. It did however show me suicide is celf-centered and a tragedy to those left behind. Not to mention it showed me how precious my families lives are whether they agree with me or not.
  I was depressed and wanted to die.
  I loaded my Smith and Wesson model 586 357 magnum with one hollow point. I stuck the barrel in my mouth and pulled back the hammer. My index finger pulled back the hammer while my thumb rested on the trigger.
  As I prepared to pull the trigger I saw my wife and children in front of me sitting on the sofa crying. I believe it was a vision but some will think different. The truth is I really felt numb and uncaring. I just wanted the pain to end.
  When I saw this vision a stern male voice spoke to me as in full control of what would happen. His voice was one of authority and very steady.
  "Is this what you want?"
  I pulled the gun out of my mouth and it went off in the bedroom. My wife sat up and shouted what is going on?
  I told her I was cleaning my gun and it went off. Years later I told her the truth.
  As I think back on it that gun had a hair trigger and should have gone off. It was my favorite.
  I may get ridiculed but I do believe it was the Lord allowing me to make my choice. I chose life and to use the remainder to put aside my selfish attitude and help others. I hate my life but suicide is not the way out. Even the Lord commanded us to be willing to hate our life in this world to keep it to life eternal.
  I guess I'm blessed with seeing what the emotions of my family would be when I'm gone. It's not fair to them for me to be a self-centered coward and leave them in a lasting pain.
  That is also why I take my spiritual views so seriously.
  Hope I didn't overstep my bounds or anger anyone.

  Tiffany

Tiff, good for you.  Your gun chose wisely. It's easy to see why it was your favorite.  And for Pete's sake... you need not worry about offending anyone.  Say it!  Everyone here is very respectful.

Cindi

After reading my Previous post I realise how athiestic it sounds.  though it was not ment that way...
there may well be a God controling everything going on ... I for one don't think so but it is Possable that I am totally wrong in that view. Believeing in God is extreamily important to some.. it gives them hope where there was no hope before, it gives them reason where there was no reason before. this is a good thing, not a bad thing.
I truly believe there is life after death, I just don't believe its going to be as the religons of the day point at it to being.
I take solis in the fact that " Don't take life too seriously as you can't get out of it alive"   to me that is conforting...as  it depicts that life is a proveing ground, a learning place.... something is supposed to be done here...
  Now what that something IS remains to be discovered for each person... nobody can tell you what that certain thing is...
I have had a Nagging preocupation all my life... that tells me to learn more and more
I can't get enough... I want to know ALL I can.... I don't know why... I should be happy the way I am ... but I'm not ... I want to know the details... the fine points of everything..... Unfortionately Schools and education don't seam to be the answer as I have tried them and was completely miserable in the proccess... I learned in one week all they tought for the rest of the 9 months.. it was a terrable waste of time.
I see no real logical reason for this desire except that it is my reason for being here in the first place...it could be natural selection in action, or it could be the reason I am here... that I chose to come here to learn more...because I didn't know enough before.
what ever the case may be  we each need to find why we are here... and there is alot of guess work involved... you may truly NEVER KNOW..... but you may well be right on the button.
...
Suicide realy isn't the answer because I have been there 2 times in my life...
and each time what stopped me was "thats giveing up"  and I'm hardheadded enough that I'll never give up ...when I do its the day I die... till then I will fight... my Momm'a didn't raise a coward, or a total dummy. so as long as I'm stuck here I will make the best of it...one way or another !
No Sir.... I won't give up TODAY ! it could be easy and fast and few would care, but NOT TODAY .
thats what you have to do ... get the mind set..." I'm Not Frigging GIVEING UP for anyone!... Not even myself! "
then put one foot in front of the other and move on...
pain goes away with time.
hart aches heal with time.
your entire Life will change with TIME...
so give it a chance !
....
Bob.......

I just can't stop crying sometimes.

I feel so lost. I feel like a freak. I feel like if I stay , no one will ever accept me. Yet, if I go......I don't know.

I feel like I've lost my gender identity and can't find me any more. I'm not a man, yet I'm not a woman. Maybe I've put so much effort into trying to be a man that I can't quite shed parts of it. I don't feel female right now. I don't look female. I may not ever. I feel Gwyneth inside me, but she's so tired. She's struggled so hard in my life, only to be buried over and over.

I've found myself doing things that are risky or somewhat painful sexually just to get a bit of a rush, even though I know they could lead to my being hurt, possibly fatally. I hate my genetalia. I've contemplated ending my life so many times.

I just can't see the road ahead. I can't see the future.

I don't know what to do. I'm just trying to move one tiny bit ahead at a time, minute by minute, hoping the little house of cards that is my life doesn't come crashing down on me in an instant. I'm just trying to get through to see my therapist once more, hoping she'll shed some light or hope to keep me struggling till the next session. I believe she can help.

I'm trying to stay alive, I really am. Gwyneth want's her chance.

Genevieve

I won't add my suicide story here.  Suffice it to say that like others have said, I tried and it didn't take.  I tried multiple times and I kept failing.

Nothing really depresses you more than a seriously failed suicide attempt.  I felt like a failure at life and a failure at death.  Some days you can't win!  These were no cries for help.  I waited until I was alone and sure no one would find me until I was well gone.

And more to the point, my male persona, is who wanted to die.  He wasn't a bad man, just terribly, terribly hurt over so many years.  He took care of me for so many years, but finally couldn't take the pain any longer.  It is better that he sleep now, away from the pain.

Now I feel that there would be so many people who would be disappointed in me were I to kill myself.

I am facing my most difficult time in my life.  I really don't know how it will turn out.  But I really don't want to kill myself.  I hope I can continue to feel that way.

To others who also feel the despair, please have hope.  I don't know what help I could be, but I would do anything in my power to help.

Suicide is a selfish lonely act.  Know that with others like us you are not alone.

-Sandy

Very nice Bob, I know all this i guess it just helps to rehear it and hear someone elses take on things as well.  Thanks
Gwen...Hang in there Bob made many valid points in his post re-read please!
Ricki

Gwen   
Remember this... Gweneth will NEVER get her chance if you do your self in !
We all Know how you feel, we all have been there it is no new story... been there done that!
So you are not alone... but you are among profesionals !   Profesionals of Pain !  ( no not that kind! )  the emotional pain of every day life... its a constant drag on your soul
we've been there... you are not alone... so what advice can we give ? sense we are so almighty wize ?  Just tough it out Kiddo !  there is no snap of the fingers and you'll be happy for ever... life doesn't work that way... but YOU can change what you don't like about yourself... and that is just as good !  but you gott'a make up your mind to do it  because no one else will.... you can make yourself happy... you dont have to be sad all the time..... happyness or sadness is a figment of the mind... it truly is ! and because of that you can be in any mood you want to be in.  its easier said than done however but well worth the effort.
Make up your mind that tomarrow you will be happy... and work to that end...  just incase that being happy now it too much for you to believe ! ... You see ? its You who believe it or not... its you who are sad at your own will or happy at your own will...
you have to alow yourself this luxury.... you have to take that much control of your own mind.
  I consider myself a happy person... so happy infact that i rarely have to work at being happy any more because I am just fine most of the time... not extatically happy  nor exceedingly sad.... in between... right where I WANT to be... occasionally I have to work at being happy  but not too often... but in times past it was every day for what seamed like years... when I know full well it was just a few months.
this Period of sadness came upon me like a ton of bricks when I finally realised that the religon I was following was simply man made  and followed few of the bibles examples
I was a radical religious finatic with the rug pulled out from under him... who do you turn to then ? the pastor ? the undertaker ? I still had 3/4 of my life yet to live and discovered that the first 1/4 was spent with time Wasted...
but as I said, I desided I was going to be happy anyway... and indeed I was...
from everything from makeing faces in the mirror to reading joke books over and over I pulled out the stops.... because I was so very sad deep inside.  and the amazeing thing is .... it worked... within 3 months I was a changed person,  I could look to the future
something I hadn't done in years.
  You can and Must control your own mind ... else how can you live ?  I don't mean being scatterbrained is a bad thing , on the contary its a good thing because you are thinking so quickly !
I mean by alowing yourself to be happy or sad is YOUR choice.... its not curcumstances that dictate your emotional state.... Its true that it has been up to now, but you must change that !  when You can do that the use of the S&M 357 Magnum is No longer needed ...even on the worst of days

this is the entire Point... You must control your emotional state and stop alowing the world arround you to do it. 
it will save your life... and it will make your life worth liveing again.
but it is totally up to you and no one else !
....
my 2 coppers!
Bob.......

Quote from: Genevieve on November 05, 2006, 04:20:51 PM
I just can't stop crying sometimes.

I feel so lost. I feel like a freak. I feel like if I stay , no one will ever accept me. Yet, if I go......I don't know.

I feel like I've lost my gender identity and can't find me any more. I'm not a man, yet I'm not a woman. Maybe I've put so much effort into trying to be a man that I can't quite shed parts of it. I don't feel female right now. I don't look female. I may not ever. I feel Gwyneth inside me, but she's so tired. She's struggled so hard in my life, only to be buried over and over.

I've found myself doing things that are risky or somewhat painful sexually just to get a bit of a rush, even though I know they could lead to my being hurt, possibly fatally. I hate my genetalia. I've contemplated ending my life so many times.

I just can't see the road ahead. I can't see the future.

I don't know what to do. I'm just trying to move one tiny bit ahead at a time, minute by minute, hoping the little house of cards that is my life doesn't come crashing down on me in an instant. I'm just trying to get through to see my therapist once more, hoping she'll shed some light or hope to keep me struggling till the next session. I believe she can help.

I'm trying to stay alive, I really am. Gwyneth want's her chance.

Genevieve

If you want to cry, cry.  Let it out.  Keeping it in is part of the nonsense society teaches boys and men.  You are a woman.  You are allowed to cry.  When my family moved out and I was left alone I cried.  When I knew I had to transition I cried.  And you know what?  I felt better afterwards.  For six months I cried almost every day.  Then one day it stopped.  The gloomy skies cleared and the sun shone brightly. 

This is a big change in anyone's life.  Society has successfully brainwashed us into believing transitioning is wrong.  I have yet to hear one common sense reason as to why.  Can you think of any?  All we want is to find inner peace and happiness.  What's so wrong with that?  We are surrounded by people who have no idea what it's like to have a mind/body gender conflict.  Does that mean we have to keep them in the dark and not upset their safe and happy worlds by suppressing our true selves?  Sorry, I don't buy into that.  I'm not responsible for the happiness of the world.  That's their issue, not mine.

Keep taking baby steps, but keep moving forward.  "Don't let the bastards wear you down."  Happiness is on the horizon.  You'll get there.

Julie

I have very strong feelings on this particular subject as some of my close friends here know.

Allow me to say this.
Those of us who are in transition expect others to recognize the fact that we, each individual, knows what is best for us.  We hope that, at the very least, they accept our right to make that choice.  Could that 'choice' (for lack of a better word) be construed as selfish by those around you? Certainly, of course it could.  You were choosing your needs over their need to have you remain your old self.

This same arguement is made for suicide.  While you may believe it is the ultimate selfish act that one can make, you must accept that they have the right to make it as it is their life to live.  While you may believe it is the ultimate selfish act that one can do, I believe it is far more selfish to ask that person to continue to live a life of absolute and utter misery so you can continue to see them.

Respect one anothers decisions, whether you personally agree with them or not.
It is nothing less than what those of you who are in transition hope of others.

This is a big change in anyone's life.  Society has successfully brainwashed us into believing transitioning suicide is wrong.  I have yet to hear one common sense reason as to why.  Can you think of any?  All we want is to find inner peace and happiness.  What's so wrong with that?

Sincerely,
Jessica

Quote from: Jessica on November 06, 2006, 08:26:15 AM
This is a big change in anyone's life.  Society has successfully brainwashed us into believing transitioning suicide is wrong.  I have yet to hear one common sense reason as to why.  Can you think of any?  All we want is to find inner peace and happiness.  What's so wrong with that?

Sincerely,
Jessica

Gotta disagree with you on this one Jessica.  How many people who have attempted suicide now say they are happy they failed?  Suicide is far different than transitioning.  With transitioning you trade one life for another.  With suicide you end a life, period.  If the person is truly committed to suicide they will succeed.  But there are those who succeed who aren't.  They were just going through a rough time.

We go through therapy to see whether we really want to transition.  If everyone who wanted to take their life went through therapy how many would come out still wanting to do it?  Too often suicide is a knee jerk reaction.  Many times they are drunk or on drugs.  They aren't thinking clearly.  That's why we preach it's selfish or wrong.  To get the people to think before they act on an impulse.  Few people are forever miserable with their lives.

Julie

Intresting ! ... I too feel as its My choice not someone elses and it urks me to think that others think they can control me if I deside to commit suiside...
its My life... not theirs...if i dside to end it its MY choice and Not theirs.... no moral teachings will change that fact... though I agree that suiside is not the answer it is however MY CHOICE   I truly believe life can be a liveing hell and much worse than dieing
there for there are times where takeing ones own life is justified. and no cort of law should punish anyone helping someone do this ...its their desigon...helping is a mercifull act not murder.....
   I hold this view Knowing Much about life and its ups and downs... it is a last resort
I for one would rather be dead than hooked up to a machine in some hospital for years at a time.... to me THAT is a sin !  where do you draw the line ?  because that person may well come out of their comma and live a normal life after being hooked to the machines for 3 years.... what is right ?  it lies with the individual.
   I can be very Cold when it comes to my views on life and death. because Life is itself very cold ,brutal and harsh....
  you can pass all the laws you want, to say Suiside is iligal ( and they have) but people will still do it , simply because they think Death is better than life.
what is needed is Education ! to show these people that Life is worth liveing in the first place... that is a tall order when the persons Life is a liveing hell.
.... all I can say is Life does get better ! it realy does... it can get worse ofcorse but it usually gets better, because we strive to make it better every day.
  if you take your life because this month everything has gone wrong that possably can go wrong...you simply won't be here when everything goes right .... and that is a tradgity in itself.
    I have played at length with Random numbers, and its truly hard to get a truly random number on a computer un known to most... but it can be done... and you would be supprized
at the outcome.... I ran a test thinking any number below 50 was a bad number  and any number above 50 was a good number..... I Ran it
I was amagzed    the first 12 numbers were below 50... after that 3 or 4 were above 50 then back to the bad numbers... then suddenly a string of good numbers came up that was 20 or 30 long , then a few bad again.....
this is exactly how life throws stuff at you.... some good some bad a string of good  a string of bad... and you never know from day to daywhat you'll get.... but you are better off than the truly random numbers because you can INFLUANCE the good and bad in real life.... and in so doing you can make more good numbers come up than the bad.
BUT.... that takes You being active... you can't just sit on the bench and watch the world go by ... you have to partisipate in life to change it into your favor.

...
my 2 coppers
Bob......

QuoteWe go through therapy to see whether we really want to transition.  If everyone who wanted to take their life went through therapy how many would come out still wanting to do it?  Too often suicide is a knee jerk reaction.  Many times they are drunk or on drugs.  They aren't thinking clearly.

I agree that impulsive thinking is very harmful in ANY decision.
I agree that irrational thinking is very harmful in ANY decision.
I do not agree that suicide is always the result of impulsive and/or irrational thinking.
Therefore, suicide is not always wrong.
In some cases, it is the result of a long, very carefully thought out, and very well executed plan.

Quotewhat is needed is Education ! to show these people that Life is worth liveing in the first place... that is a tall order when the persons Life is a liveing hell.
.... all I can say is Life does get better ! it realy does... it can get worse ofcorse but it usually gets better, because we strive to make it better every day.

Bob, consider this, that in some cases, to that person, life will never be worth living.  Of course, your life is worth living to you, or you wouldn't be here.  But, it is impossible to understand someone else from that persons point of view.  You can imagine how you would feel in their situation, but it's not possible to truely understand exactly how they feel.

My point to all of this, is it is impossible to judge the act of suicide.
Yes, it's possible to point out the ones that attempted it and regret it.
Of course it is also possible to point out the ones that impulsively decided to do it.
Stupid decisions are made all of the time.
However, my point is, suicide is not always the result of a stupid decision, therefore, it is impossible to judge the ACT of suicide as always being selfish.

To tell someone that has thought it over for a long time, has developed a plan, is in the process of executing that plan over the course of years, and then after years of contemplation and planning executes the final maneuver to that plan, that suicide isn't worth it, it's selfish, and that he or she will regret it is not only futile, it is also extremely self-rightous.  In effect, it's saying that you know how to live their life better than they do.

Furthermore, I would argue the following point.
Therapy requirement for transitioning should also be required for suicide!
The parallels are important.

Transitioning is a life altering, non-reversible (for all intents and purposes) proceedure.

If you could transition on a whim and it were irreversible for example you drink something and it's done, no way back, I am certain that there would be PLENTY of people who would do it and regret it. 

However, there would be a few, like you and me, who would do it with no regrets whatsoever.

Unfortunately, suicide is something that can be done on a whim and people attempt it and regret it all the time.  However, to dismiss all of those that suicide as whimsical, spur of the moment decisions.  It's important to remember that before judging the act as stupid, or selfish, or any of the many adjectives used to describe suicide.

Jessica

             This may be harsh so read on at your own risk. Having put much thought into suicide I can attest to it's involvement with others. It is your personal choice, but who will clean your blood and brains from the walls, floor and ceiling?  Who will find you with your head half blown off and at least a gallon of coagulated blood on the floor? Who made the gun, medication or whatever available, could have taken it away or neglected to know you had it? Who will have the words from your note torment themselves for years?  Who heard your torment but didn't do enough to help you? How will your action affect a policeman and tow truck driver? How about the truck driver you step in front of?  Will he forever feel guilty or will he swerve and kill himself and others? If there are no witnesses and no body who will wonder for the next 30 years what happened to you?  Suicide often includes many selfish components. I have listed just a few of them here because they need to be considered. I would hope no one would have ever have to go to that dark place again.


beth

How do we know as humans that suicide is wrong? Because we were taught that? By whom? Nobody with experience can say whether its worth it or not. All we are left with is failed suicide attempts or the bodies from those that have succeeded and they are not saying anything about how good or bad of an idea it was. 

I'm not going to say whether suicide is right or wrong because until you die, you dont know the truth. We are taught in this culture (I'm an American) that if you kill yourself you will go to hell because you have taken a life and "though shalt not kill." To me that says don't kill, but it doesnt say "though shalt not die." It just a matter of interpretation.

I've said before in the past that other cultures consider it honorable to commit suicide and its expected if you screw up really big. If we were Japenese it wouldn't be such a big ordeal. I feel society places blame and horror on those considering it because they dont want to have to deal with the depressed relatives, and the clean up and left wondering why. If they really cared they would have found another answer to the issues at hand that lead to somebody taking that action in the first place or figured out why before it happened.

Some suicidal because of mental issues and really have no other choice. I actually feel bad for them, becuase its really not thier fault. Others do it because they feel they have no choice. Some do it because they are just tired. There are a million reasons to do it. Instead of focusing on how horrible it is, shouldnt we look at the other side of it? The individual is no longer in pain. No more stress, taxes, bills, hatred from society and problems. Personaly I feel suicide is not a cop-out but a final solution to any issue.

In the event I have to transition I will give it my best. If I fail as in I dont pass, or turn out to be a freak, make no mistake about what I will do. I will just simply disappear. This isnt a threat or a cry out for help. I dont want help, I want to be able to mingle with society care free with no cloud of doubt as to whether I look like a man or a woman. I know what will make me happy and what won't. If I cannot achieve my goal then I will know I gave it my best and I will check out and see whats next.

Maybe there is a heaven and hell, perhaps we just return to the earth and become dirt. I honestly feel people make too big of an issue out of suicide. I'd like to think there is a better and happier place waiting for us on the other side. Sometimes dead is better.

Quote from: Jessica on November 06, 2006, 11:58:22 AM
Bob, consider this, that in some cases, to that person, life will never be worth living.  Of course, your life is worth living to you, or you wouldn't be here.  But, it is impossible to understand someone else from that persons point of view.  You can imagine how you would feel in their situation, but it's not possible to truely understand exactly how they feel.

Exactly. It's often an equally impulsive, "knee-jerk" reaction for people to automatically apply the politically-correct, feel-good "life is always better than death" speech in all circumstances.

Some situations are simply unsolvable. There's just no way out. Sometimes all choices, all paths lead to pain that'd simply be impossible to bear, or hurt that someone isn't willing to inflict upon those they love.

I'd like to add that in death there is always hope. Why take that away from somebody with the fear of hell?

QuoteSuicide often includes many selfish components.

Of course it does Beth, I never said it didn't.

I did say I felt, personally, that it was more selfish to wish someone to be in pain the rest of their life and not suicide just so you can have them around, than to non-judgementally accept their decision to end things on their own terms.

Be that as it may, LIFE often includes many selfish decisions, as well as many decisions that are selfless.

There are answers to your questions, at least, how I have answered them.  They are not perfect, but, I have factored them in.  If you can formulate those questions then you can formulate the answers to those questions as well.  Put yourself in the mindframe of who you know.  Generally speaking, what are their beliefs on the subject, how will they react?  Then try to find the best path that will cause the least amount of damage.

The same can be said for transitioning Beth.  You know what you need to do, you explain it to all of your friends and family.  You discuss it with them and you prepare them for it.  You let them know that this wasn't their fault at all and there is nothing they could have done, and nothing they can do.  This is your life, and therefore, your decision.  It should come as no suprise to anyone that knows you.  Then you do it in such a manner as to impact as few people as possible.

Just like everything in life Beth, be courteous about it.

Like I've said before, suicide done on a whim is very rarely an intelligent move.  There are far too many things that you need to think about and consider.

Jessica

Quote from: Jessica on November 06, 2006, 01:31:05 PM

QuoteSuicide often includes many selfish components.

Of course it does Beth, I never said it didn't.

I did say I felt, personally, that it was more selfish to wish someone to be in pain the rest of their life and not suicide just so you can have them around, than to non-judgementally accept their decision to end things on their own terms.

Be that as it may, LIFE often includes many selfish decisions, as well as many decisions that are selfless.

There are answers to your questions, at least, how I have answered them.  They are not perfect, but, I have factored them in.  If you can formulate those questions then you can formulate the answers to those questions as well.  Put yourself in the mindframe of who you know.  Generally speaking, what are their beliefs on the subject, how will they react?  Then try to find the best path that will cause the least amount of damage.

The same can be said for transitioning Beth.  You know what you need to do, you explain it to all of your friends and family.  You discuss it with them and you prepare them for it.  You let them know that this wasn't their fault at all and there is nothing they could have done, and nothing they can do.  This is your life, and therefore, your decision.  It should come as no suprise to anyone that knows you.  Then you do it in such a manner as to impact as few people as possible.

Just like everything in life Beth, be courteous about it.

Like I've said before, suicide done on a whim is very rarely an intelligent move.  There are far too many things that you need to think about and consider.

Jessica

                    My comments were in no way directed to you Jessica, just to all in general who may not have thought things all the way through. This is for you: if you think being courteous and prewarning people will mitigate all the sadness and regret you are fooling yourself.

beth

For the record I'd like to say my words were not intended to convey any absolutes.  I do believe there are those for whom ending their life is the only option.  But I feel they represent a small percentage of the people who attempt it.

There was a time when I thought I could never transition, that I'd go to my grave having never lived a moment being true to myself.  An early death seemed the best option.  For some reason I came to my senses and pursued transitioning.  It probably took me a year or more before I believed I could do it.  Even today doubts creep in.  It's a day to day struggle for me but I know it's the best thing for me.  If someone wanting to committ suicide puts all that time and thought into doing it and still wants to, then let them.

If suicide were socially acceptable maybe we'd have something in place for them that allows them to leave this life with dignity and allows their loved ones a chance to say goodbye but we aren't there yet.  Beth made a very good point in citing some of the possible scenarios where the living are left to suffer with the aftermath of the person who committed suicide, many for the rest of their lives.  If you leave that kind of mess behind expect to be called selfish or inconsiderate. 

When my kids were in grade school a 20 year old girl decided to commit suicide.  She chose to drive herself into a telephone pole.  The pole was at an intersection.  Just as she was approaching the chosen pole a family of four pulled up to the intersection and stopped at the stop sign.  Seconds later she plowed into them killing the father and his ten year old son.  The mother and 13 year old daughter were hospitalized where they later found half their family was gone.  The girl survived the suicide attempt.  My son lost a friend.  My daughter did her best to console her friend about her lost brother.  This one selfish act affected deeply an entire community.

The problem for me in promoting suicide as a viable option is it will give those in a temporary state of despair some support for taking their lives.  This is not something we should support without being crystal clear about the consequences.  Like SRS, there is no going back, so like SRS, there should be sufficient information and support available so the individual contemplating suicide makes the right choice.  It's dangerous to say suicide is okay and then walk away.   

If you want to commit suicide then do so in a manner that takes into consideration what the consequences for others will be.  I don't think that's too much to ask.

Julie

Quoteif you think being courteous and prewarning people will mitigate all the sadness and regret...

I realize that; every decision has its consequences.

QuoteThe problem for me in promoting suicide as a viable option is it will give those in a temporary state of despair some support for taking their lives.  This is not something we should support without being crystal clear about the consequences.  Like SRS, there is no going back, so like SRS, there should be sufficient information and support available so the individual contemplating suicide makes the right choice.  It's dangerous to say suicide is okay and then walk away.

If you want to commit suicide then do so in a manner that takes into consideration what the consequences for others will be.  I don't think that's too much to ask.

I never meant to say that it was okay without an incredible amount of thought as to the consequences of the action.  In my mind it is very similiar to transition.  You have to make sure it's the right path for you.

I wholeheartedly agree with the last posts of both of you (Julie and Beth) at this point.

Jessica

Kate :
I couldn't agree more ! that is why I said what I said...
In some cases not many but in some cases You do them a favor by putting them out of their misery.... in animals and in humans , there is no diference.
there is alwayse the after thought however of what if, but I think that too is human nature... we can stand by our disigons or throw them away as sand in the wind as long as you are sure at the time then you have no regrets...
But let me reiterate, Life is tinatious...in all its forms and doing something in or someone in should not be taken lightly.   we all have the ability I just prey you are all spared the problem,  as I said before ...it is a Last resort.
no one is debateing that life can be pure hell for some, to denie that would be foolish.
but who can say that even though today may well be a liveing hell for a person and that doing away with ones self is a blessing in and of itself.... that  a year from now if that person had lived that life wouldn't be a bed of roses and joy would fill their hart to the breaking point ?  ...
....
You or I cannot say we know what the future holds... therefore to take your life today for what is a "Not worth liveing state of being"  is FOOLISH,... because... a week , a year a decade in the future may well be "A life well worth liveing indeed"
....
This Is what Crosses my mind every time I must put a critter down, but You cannot tell the future, you can only go by what you know today.... its a "Dammed if you Dammed if you don't senerio".
....
  Liveing and Suffering is No way to Live, but that can and more than likely WILL CHANGE.
....
therefore Suiside is planely Foolish in that respect alone, bareing all the other pros and cons... its Not just Selfish or Cowerdly as some put it ...its planely a stupid move
because curcumstances CHANGE WITH TIME.

Yes I have been there, done that and it was planely Stupid... what can I say !

So what can you do ?  Grit your teeth and bear it and when it gets so bad that you can't bare it any longer, grit your teeth and bare it somemore ! its ALL you can do !
...So much for saged words of wisdome eh ? but that is exactly what life has tought me !
....
my coppers worth
....Again!
...
Bob.......

This subject re-emerged?  I cannot say i like it but i am very interested in to hearing peoples thoughts and viewpoints on it.  I have my own and i doubt any one will change them except maybe the devine spirit herself!
Kate this is a piece of your post

Quotewho will find you with your head half blown off and at least a gallon of coagulated blood on the floor? Who made the gun, medication or whatever available, could have taken it away or neglected to know you had it? Who will have the words from your note torment themselves for years?  Who heard your torment but didn't do enough to help you? How will your action affect a policeman and tow truck driver? How about the truck driver you step in front of?

A piece so it's not fair to go too much into this but i did not attempt anything to hurt the people around me (i know you know that and we all do really) or in likelyhood try to disrupt their lives, disappearing into a mountian would forever leave someone wondering where did he go or do?  The bad reality is mess or not most people seem to seek closure?  I may be a little off on how i said that, but the same poeple who would be (my family-friends i cite here) your so called friends and family like mine were the same people who had all this love and compromise to offer and acceptance and wanted me to live so desperatly yet they cannot even say the simple statement "my son is transgenderd"-"my brother is transgendered"...(I will never forget coming out of a 1 1/2 day life support coma and my sisiter rubbing my one arm crying telling me she loves me and they love me and whatever it takes rick whatever it takes?-all these years later and her and her husband have made the lines very clear to me of what an abomination i am to them)Urks me, urks me a lot but i would never kill myself out of loath or to cause hardship or harm to others, i guess whatever way we leave this world by our own hands or natures it leaves a mark and a mess to clean-up! 
I often wondered the bloody mess i did leave and the awful scenario i presented i do not even think it made an impact anyway (which that was never the goal) cause like i said my family is in DENIAL....
But anyway great stuff and everyones opinons and feelings on this very very sensitive issue are respected by me for sure!
Ricki

Posted on: November 06, 2006, 08:00:39 PM

---

Wanted to add this Julie Marie this is a very very powerful and right statement you made.....

QuoteIf you want to commit suicide then do so in a manner that takes into consideration what the consequences for others will be.  I don't think that's too much to ask.

Quote from: Ricki on November 06, 2006, 08:05:24 PM
yet they cannot even say the simple statement "my son is transgenderd"-"my brother is transgendered"...(I will never forget coming out of a 1 1/2 day life support coma and my sisiter rubbing my one arm crying telling me she loves me and they love me and whatever it takes rick whatever it takes?-all these years later and her and her husband have made the lines very clear to me of what an abomination i am to them)Urks me, urks me a lot but i would never kill myself out of loath or to cause hardship or harm to others, i guess whatever way we leave this world by our own hands or natures it leaves a mark and a mess to clean-up! 
I often wondered the bloody mess i did leave and the awful scenario i presented i do not even think it made an impact anyway (which that was never the goal) cause like i said my family is in DENIAL....

Ricki

Ricki, your experience made me wonder if, for those of us who have family and friends who think we're screwed up in the head, would our successful suicide only support their misinformed beliefs?  "I knew as soon as Jim told me he wanted to be a woman he was emotionally unstable.  That he took his own life proved that."  I can see that happening in my family.  They would use that to let themselves off the hook for not supporting my decision.  Just that thought alone is enough to motivate me to live a full and happy remainder of my life as a woman.  At some point in time they would have to admit they were wrong, if only to themselves, and that the best thing for me truly was transitioning.

Julie

Yeah Julie!  LIVE, LIVE!  If only to really piss them off!  ;)

Cindi

HAHHAHAH
Cindi !
you Nut !
HEHEHEHE
Bob........

   

                      I was writting this post and meant to post it here but as the news came out about SarahF I posted it in the wrong thread.

I wrote this poem about 3 years ago when I thought I would shortly choose the path of suicide.


edit: for personal reasons I had to remove this poem. Please accept my apology.

  That was really nice, Beth.      But now I want to cry.

  I wish I could hug everyone who has ever been too deep into the darkness.


Love, Love, Love

Rebecca

That poem was beautiful Beth and I can relate to every line.

QuoteNo matter how bad things are, they always get better.

I wish I could believe that.
My experience has been much different.

Things don't get better, they can always get worse, but so far, it's just been day after day after day of the same monotunous emptiness, confusion, loneliness and boredom. I spend my days trying to pass the time and stop the constant mental barrage of thoughts, of what-ifs, of possibilities and opportunities slipped by, or doors unopened and time that's been lost. Those day's roll into weeks, weeks turn to months, months to years.  My dreams and hopes are already gone.  I'm just here passing the time.

However, I admire your optimissim towards life Beth.

Jessica

Quote from: Jessica on November 07, 2006, 12:42:05 PM
That poem was beautiful Beth and I can relate to every line.

QuoteNo matter how bad things are, they always get better.

I wish I could believe that.
My experience has been much different.

Things don't get better, they can always get worse, but so far, it's just been day after day after day of the same monotunous emptiness, confusion, loneliness and boredom. I spend my days trying to pass the time and stop the constant mental barrage of thoughts, of what-ifs, of possibilities and opportunities slipped by, or doors unopened and time that's been lost. Those day's roll into weeks, weeks turn to months, months to years.  My dreams and hopes are already gone.  I'm just here passing the time.

However, I admire your optimissim towards life Beth.

Jessica

                             I am really not optimistic, I have just experience with everything falling apart and later correcting itself somewhat.

QuoteThings don't get better, they can always get worse, but so far, it's just been day after day after day of the same monotunous emptiness, confusion, loneliness and boredom. I spend my days trying to pass the time and stop the constant mental barrage of thoughts, of what-ifs, of possibilities and opportunities slipped by, or doors unopened and time that's been lost. Those day's roll into weeks, weeks turn to months, months to years.  My dreams and hopes are already gone.  I'm just here passing the time.

                              That is exactly how I felt. Things will get better Jessica, I promise.


beth

Believe me Jessicia it realy does get better...
the problem is is that in your state it is impossable for you to see it !
you can't see light at the end of the tunnel because there is too much junk in the way.
but rest assured there is light at the end of the tunnel and things will bet better
.... No doubt they COULD also get worse but it can only do that for a while then it HAS to get better... the odds predict that ...
My life has proven that... it does get better... when i was at the bottom of the berrol so to speak I couldn't see any light at all and it was just getting worse day by day...
and it seamed like the only thing that would stop my decent was takeing my own life... but I was wrong ! all I needed to do was wait it out and things got better... thats all...
ofcorse in the mean time i started working in the direction of being happier and having things good happen and that is the key.... because it then came about faster !
believe me ...please !  it does get better with time....
....
you know yourself it can't get much worse...  so it has to get better ...Right ?
stop the negitive thinking and start thinking POSITIVE and it will come about faster!
...
Now I understand that no matter how hard things are they can alwayse get worse...right ?
however something you havn't noticed is once you have been inidated by bad things for a long time you become NUMB... the bad things that happen after that point just become less of an impact...they have no power because you are already down at the bottom of the berrol... .. so when your at that point more bad things have little effect on you at all... because you are numb at that point.... so Yes it may alwayse get worse but it doesn't realy matter by then ! ... its Ahhh so what else is new !   no more power in it as it used to have... now the things that drove you down don't hit you so hard and you start back up and even little things that are good realy start you moveing upward...
soon you are on top of the world again because that is just how it works !
so Haing in there  it does get better even though it don't look like it !
<HUG>
Bob.......

Hi there Everyone,

I just wanted you all to know that I'm feeling better right now than I have over the last couple of weeks.

It's been a rough time but I feel like I'm making forward progress again.

I know there are going to be ups and downs. I know there are going to be times that I will be in total despair and times where I'm feeling happy and fulfilled. I'm in an area where life is totally uncertain and almost unknown to me. But, we have all bee there.

I REALLY want to thank Julie for starting this thread. It has made me think about the relative value I've placed on some of the things in my life and their meaning to me. Julie, you are wonderful!  :)

I also want to thank the rest of you for posting your thoughts. You have all helped me and anyone in my position really think about our choices.

Also, to those that PMed me about my previous post. Thank you for your personal support. You have no clue how much you've helped me getting through.

Thank you All.

Genevieve

Jessica, you have to realize that the worse things are the more likely they are to get better.  It's simple statistics.

Melissa

QuoteJessica, you have to realize that the worse things are the more likely they are to get better.  It's simple statistics.

I posted a very long reply which made me sound like a dork but the short answer is, that isn't correct because you are dealing with a potentially infinite data set which means that the area under the curve (probability, in statistical terms) will always be infinite, therefore, impossible to calculate.

If you don't believe me, PM me, I'll go through the mathematics.

Jessica

Oh, I believe you and can understand your mathematical analysis, but it is also making the assumption that it can infinitely get worse.  However, the probability of having everything go wrong that can go wrong decreases as more things go wrong.  In other words, if you had 25 things that could go wrong throughout the course of the day, the likelyhood of all 25 things going wrong--or even all 25 things going right--is less likely than it falling somewhere in the middle (simple bell curve).  Everything just seems to balance out.  It tends to fit this bell curve model.  If you have a day where 20 out of 25 things go wrong, it is more likely you will have 20 things go right the next day because it statistically averages out.  So, regardless of the "potential size of the data set", it still will follow this bell curve and that's why I say that statistically the more things go wrong, the more likely they will go right in an attempt to balance things out.  It's just the way the universe works.

Melissa

I have had my brush with Suicide  it is a rather touchy subject arround me - just thinking what I could of done in an instant of pain - now relising the support arround me - i was crazy to think about it - but in depression I guess everyone thinks about ending the pain. I was lucky that on the one night that I real needed help coping a friend was able to come round and tell me I was someone worth supporting. If I did not make that call to tell him to come over - if I tried to hid my pain from everyone - I could of easily done it that night. And having read stories arround here of what failed - I am convinced if I took the action I had thought about all of that day I would not of made it.

Last weekend my neigbour said she would not of copped if I had done that - if someone so close to her had gone and done that to her again (she lost a close relative to suside) she would be been detroyed. I look at what has happened the last week here at Susans and know others would feel the same if someone close to them took that option.

Is there anyway to block a topic showing - I hate seing this pop up all the time.


Alice

QuoteIn other words, if you had 25 things that could go wrong throughout the course of the day, the likelyhood of all 25 things going wrong--or even all 25 things going right...

Individual Perception of Events.

It is not a 50/50 chance that things go right or wrong. It is how you perceive those events.

Example:
Someone comes over to your house, and you may think fantastic! A friend I can spend some time with! (positive)

Someone comes over to my house and I think, *(&@# I have to wake up and go answer the door. (negative)

....

I know.  Don't bother saying it.  I've heard it a thousand times before, happiness is a decision. *sigh*

Jessica

Alice, if it pops up again, just ignore it.  While you may not feel comfortable with this subject, others have been helped by open discussion about it.

Genevieve, thank you so very much for your kind words.  When I read your reply I got goosebumps.  This forum has given me a lot and when I know I have given something back it completes the cycle.

Julie

Well Said Julie!

Bob....

Posted on: November 08, 2006, 07:02:29 PM

---

Quote from: Melissa on November 08, 2006, 02:06:39 PM
Jessica, you have to realize that the worse things are the more likely they are to get better.  It's simple statistics.

Melissa

WOOT ! There ya GO Melissa !
Cheer !

Bob........

Quote from: Alice on November 08, 2006, 05:03:40 PM
Last weekend my neibour said she would not of coped if I had done that - if some so close to her had gone and done that to her again (she lost a close relative to suside) she would be been detroyed. I look at what as happened the last week here at Susans and know other would feel the same if someone close to them took that option.

I'm glad you're ok. 

A word of advice... If everything feels hopeless and you feel you must die, wait 1 day before taking any action.  A lot can change in that day.  Also, call up a friend and talk.  There will ALWAYS be somebody who would rather blow off everything and talk to you as long as you need rather than see anything ever happen to you. 

Please listen to the song "How to Save a Life" by The Fray.  That song makes me go into tears everytime I hear it.  I have been too close to suicide too many times.  I imagine it as a friend singing it to me after I had committed suicide.

Just for your convenience, here's the video and lyrics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAIs3tUYOi4

Step one you say we need to talk
He walks you say sit down it's just a talk
He smiles politely back at you
You stare politely right on through
Some sort of window to your right
As he goes left and you stay right
Between the lines of fear and blame
And you begin to wonder why you came

Where did I go wrong, I lost a friend
Somewhere along in the bitterness
And I would have stayed up with you all night
Had I known how to save a life

Let him know that you know best
Cause after all you do know best
Try to slip past his defense
Without granting innocence
Lay down a list of what is wrong
The things you've told him all along
And pray to God he hears you
And pray to God he hears you

Where did I go wrong, I lost a friend
Somewhere along in the bitterness
And I would have stayed up with you all night
Had I known how to save a life

As he begins to raise his voice
You lower yours and grant him one last choice
Drive until you lose the road
Or break with the ones you've followed
He will do one of two things
He will admit to everything
Or he'll say he's just not the same
And you'll begin to wonder why you came

Where did I go wrong, I lost a friend
Somewhere along in the bitterness
And I would have stayed up with you all night
Had I known how to save a life

Where did I go wrong, I lost a friend
Somewhere along in the bitterness
And I would have stayed up with you all night
Had I known how to save a life

How to save a life
How to save a life

Where did I go wrong, I lost a friend
Somewhere along in the bitterness
And I would have stayed up with you all night
Had I known how to save a life

Where did I go wrong, I lost a friend
Somewhere along in the bitterness
And I would have stayed up with you all night
Had I known how to save a life

How to save a life

Melissa

Julie i wanted to respond i started last night and something happened and my browser started updating and deleted half my post.. Arrggghhhhh....
Anyway a little post back you said

QuoteRicki, your experience made me wonder if, for those of us who have family and friends who think we're screwed up in the head, would our successful suicide only support their misinformed beliefs?

and it made me think to......
I avoid arguements but living with dearest mother well they are always around the corner...No matter what you do or say for me it comes back to gender like if i am in one of those quieter moods she'll say whats a matter bad day at work yesterday I say "no" its other stuff and she sighs "oh okay well then".. and the subject changes to cookies or local news or my nephew, or whatever!.. TaDaaaaaaaaaaa  my psychology major relatives ways of dealing!
But in heated discussions which we do not have much if i make the fatal mistake of saying you know one of these days i may just leave and be gone!!!!!!!!
She'll say you know if you wanna kill yourself go ahead...
and after reading your reply julie you are right, i do not think they ever would want me to but if i did (i did but it failed, anyway) it successfully, you're right on;  it would be the "well he had a bunch of issues and he could not deal with them" and i see this lie coming too.. We did everything we could do to help him!!!!!!!!  I'm telling you i see that people are not perfect and my family would not just say ya we ignored him and made an abomination out of him they'd lie and say ya we did everything we could!!
shame shame!
anyway thanks Julie I appreciate posts/replies that make me continue to think or think more on a subject!
Alice if you do see this i apologize i know its not the most favorite topic to discuss but if this site was full of embroidery and crochet would we really all be talking or dealing straight on with things that are realities to some of us still???
Again sorry though cause i do understand!  Believe me i have trouble to this day watching movies where people are getting shot close up but....I cannot stop people from making the movies!
hugs
Ricki

Ricki, when I have asked to be removed from this earth (no one listened!) the thoughts going through my head typically are

"I'm hurting those who love me.  I have to end this"

"I can't stand alone against an entire society." 

"I don't belong in this world." 

I could go on and on, but I know you get the idea. 

What prevails here is negative thinking.  That thinking is the result of buying into all the things I have been told are true, most of which have no proof, reasoning, logic or common sense backing them up.  It's the "that's just the way it is" response.  I used to shrug my shoulders and say, "Yeah, you're right."  The brainwashing was successful.  Not anymore.

Unhappiness never comes from the situation you are in but rather from your thoughts about that situation.  When you engage in positive thinking your world magically changes.  I can attest to that being true.  But we keep getting sucked into the mainstream beliefs that, if we buy into them, will ultimately send us into a state of despair.  We know who we are but the countless people around us who profess to love us tell us we are wrong.  And the reality is so they can make us like them and feel good about themselves.  Then if they fail and find themselves at our funeral they can say, "Gosh, what a shame!  He had so much going for him.  But he was so unstable.  I mean, thinking he was a woman?  I did all I could."  Yeah, I can see it.  My family would be right there. 

Well, I have decided to live!  But that's not enough.  This Christmas I plan to attend the family get together I was not invited to (for the first time in my life) as Julie.  My focus is to make sure they don't try to make a circus event out of me.  But surely some will try.  So I have to keep my wits about me.

As for your mom, she knows what's bothering you.  Parents can read their kids all too well.  That she takes the conversation to harmless subjects such as cookies tells you she doesn't want to "go there".  She and my mom would get along just great.  Don't let it concern you though.  She's just coping the best she can with the tools she has.  Maybe someday she'll come around.  My gut instinct is she already knows you will one day fulfill your dreams. 

I'm so happy you have shared yourself here.  It's given me the opportunity to meet another truly amazing person!  It's so refreshing!  Thank you!

Julie

Quote from: Ricki on November 09, 2006, 07:42:41 PM
Julie i wanted to respond i started last night and something happened and my browser started updating and deleted half my post.. Arrggghhhhh....
Anyway a little post back you said

QuoteRicki, your experience made me wonder if, for those of us who have family and friends who think we're screwed up in the head, would our successful suicide only support their misinformed beliefs?

and it made me think to......
I avoid arguements but living with dearest mother well they are always around the corner...No matter what you do or say for me it comes back to gender like if i am in one of those quieter moods she'll say whats a matter bad day at work yesterday I say "no" its other stuff and she sighs "oh okay well then".. and the subject changes to cookies or local news or my nephew, or whatever!.. TaDaaaaaaaaaaa  my psychology major relatives ways of dealing!
But in heated discussions which we do not have much if i make the fatal mistake of saying you know one of these days i may just leave and be gone!!!!!!!!
She'll say you know if you wanna kill yourself go ahead...
and after reading your reply julie you are right, i do not think they ever would want me to but if i did (i did but it failed, anyway) it successfully, you're right on;  it would be the "well he had a bunch of issues and he could not deal with them" and i see this lie coming too.. We did everything we could do to help him!!!!!!!!  I'm telling you i see that people are not perfect and my family would not just say ya we ignored him and made an abomination out of him they'd lie and say ya we did everything we could!!
shame shame!
anyway thanks Julie I appreciate posts/replies that make me continue to think or think more on a subject!
Alice if you do see this i apologize i know its not the most favorite topic to discuss but if this site was full of embroidery and crochet would we really all be talking or dealing straight on with things that are realities to some of us still???
Again sorry though cause i do understand!  Believe me i have trouble to this day watching movies where people are getting shot close up but....I cannot stop people from making the movies!
hugs
Ricki

Ofcorse Riki  because Derest Mother is fighting you every step of the way...  she is still thinking it a "THING" a Faze your going through... she hasn't accepted your condition as an AILMENT or a birth-defect ... to her is something of a preversion, she doesn't understand YET.... when she does she'll stop fighting you !
...
right now she's trying her damdest to get you back on the STRIGHT path.... she thinks you'll get over it .... she is hopeing it will just go away...
...
again what your fighting here is ignarance... You must educate her SHE still doesn't understand... you can tell that by her actions.... if she says she understands and she is still fighting you ask her why !  and you see the reason...is that she doesn't understand
or refuses to accept your explination...
when My Kid first told me of his desire to be a Female I was shocked and befuddeled
but from Long exposure to my Kid I already knew that my Kid was 3 times smarter than I am... so I LISTEN to my Kid ! and it was still very hard to swallow the bull he was shoveling !  so I desided that it was just a Preversion... something he elected to do...
not something that he was DRIVEN to do or die trying... so I explained that and He real quickly changed that view ! nothing could be further from the truth ...
i objected at every turn I could think of... and he shot down every idea I had....
I was desperate, grasping at straws and he was burning them as fast as I could come up with them... I finally had to accept what my Kid was telling me as being correct because everything else was absurd... it had to be what he was saying....
then I was hart broken, where did I go wrong ? and all that other stuff... only to talk to my kid about it and find out it wasn't anything i did or didn't do !...
all of this time I was feeling guilty as if I had messed up my Kid something terrable!
and it certainly wasn't my fault at all.... thats when it started to be ALRIGHT...
it still wasn't something I would wish on my worst enemy but it is His life and if I didn't mess him up  its realy up to him ...not me anyway...
so that is How I a father of a Son wound up with a Extra special Daughter !
i will feel much better when the SRS is over and done with but that takes time and I am Sure She feels the same way...

but My Kid and I have a Special relationship we are exceptionally close... while Most fathers were away at work and the mothers were raising the Kids the position whas changed for us... I couldn't keep a job for more than a few weeks so my wife out of desperation got a job and I stayed hoome and raised the kid.... it worked so well that we just cept doing it .... you know...what ever works if fair game ! ...when the Kid as big enough to go to school I got a part time job  to help out, i did every thing a mother would have done and more and I'm proud of that fact...that is why I took it so hard in the first place.... I was the one that realy raised the Kid in the first place ! I was the one that was there all the time...not the Wife.   so what did I do wrong ?
... and believe me that is where its at with parents they are ridden with guilt... Once you dispell that guilt you can get somewhere....
but you know as I know parents are hard as heck to talk to... but you gott'a start talking to them if you want to get anywhere !
their antiquated ideas and ways of thinking are enough to drive a person Nuts but you need to get in their head to strighten them out !

... Julie is certainly correct, that is exactly how parents or socioty as a whole will take a suicide.... they were messed up to begin with its.... no supprise !
so prove them wrong and do yourself up right and live the life you were ment to live
do what ever it takes to be happy.. but don't do yourself in ! <grin>
....
my coppers again !
Bob........

hahahaha!

About 7 years ago the only thought that stayed my hand one night was the following.

The Winners write the history books.

What would they say about me?
I wouldn't be able to say anything back.

*hugs*
Jessica

Boy ain't that the truth ! HAHAHAHA
...
Bob......

You guys are GREAT!  thanks for the replies and comments and feedback and SUPPORT!  I tuly believe that even though i have my own views on most things someone elses view is a good thing to have, it refreshes.. Thank you all i can take pieces of your veiws and thinking and try them into mine!
Hugs.....In honor of this and you great girls and guys i will post a cake for you! 
Ricki

Its only by hearing other views that we can guage weather our own views are substandard or not  we can lock our views and become old and outdated in a matter of a few years or keep an open mind and learn new things and ideas every day.
if you Do not look for truth you will not find it, if you do not look to improve yourself you will not. it is only by striveing for profection that we can continue to advance as a person. though we each have our own way of looking at something, we constantly find that there is alwayse a better way of looking at it. a more informitive way, less hurtfull to to others way, and if we're lucky maybe even a completely new way of looking at a subject will grace our lives in a way we never thought of before.
We are but Childern on this earth, ever learning ever playing ever getting into truble in one form or another, to loose a childs couriousity about the world around him is in itself a tragity, for without the wide eyed wonder and awe, our learning slows down, our minds stagnate our souls whither.
so keep your Mind open and your mouth asking why !  for without the questions you may not get the answer. there is No one right way in life, no religon or person has all the right answers you must pic and choose from those pieces of wisdome to call your own
to make your view, only to find with time that view must change as new knowledge is gained....
  so we flop around at times like a fish out of water, seaking desperately for the answers that pleg our minds... and when we finaly have the answers we seek we soon find them changeing...
Life is strange that way.  We may never have all the answers ... but we can sure gather up a bunch of them ! <GRIN>
....
Bob........

Blah...I'm fairly obcessed with suicide...have been since I was young. I've made subtle cries to the people around me, only to find that they rarely bother to take action to help a person out. Then I asked to be admitted to the psych unit, or even to see a psychiatrist, but my family won't let me. I can't legally see someone without my mom's consent. Not old enough.

I can never explain why I don't care anymore. I never was good at explaining myself, and only frusturates me more when I can't pinpoint the reason in words, when I know it all too well in my head why, I just can't voice it and it makes me ashamed to feel that way because if I can't explain it...I don't know. Blah.

I know I've always been depressed/anxious. Lately I find no joy or pleasure in anything, and doing the simpliest of tasks can just wear me out...make me feel worse. Apparently I suck at foolproof methods of dying, or subconsciously I haven't given up yet. I'm tormented by the urge to commit suicide...and I don't care anymore. If I die, I die. If I never live to transition, then I don't. I'm tired of fighting and I'm too worn out and jaded to care anymore. Nothing means anything to me anymore, not people who care, people I love, things, vices, nothing. Screw it all.

  I felt the same way at your age or at least very similar.  My family didn't seem to care about how I felt either...I suppose that looking back now they were dealing with thier own issues, as I was, and were probably wondering why nobody cared about them. 

  Much of my life past that point was a blur of anxiety and depression with scattered moments of what I call "pseudo-happiness".  Suicide was always on my mind and there were so many times where I purposely put myself in situations where I should have been killed and survived.  I'm not sure why I am still here....but I'm glad I am.

  It hasn't been easy, still isn't.  On one hand I become sad and depressed when I see happy people but on the other hand, I am glad that they don't live with the pain I do.  I've come to the realization that simply taking life day by day is the key for me.  I don't know how I will get through the next week of my life but I do know how I can make it through one more day and that is what keeps me going. 

  I have no rose colored portrait of the rest of my life in my head.....I don't see a great future so I avoid looking that far in advance.  I am simply one person who has an above average amount of pain, suffering and anger to bear.  I moved ahead carrying that weight because I'm stubborn and independant.  I suppose to a certain degree I wear it as a badge of honor.  I know so many people who couldn't carry the same burdens and I take a little bit of pride in the fact I have made it this long.   Strange I know....coping mechanisms are whatever works and this works for me.

  Now...If you feel you want to speak to a professional about your thoughts on suicide and your parents say no.  I would suggest making the call on your own.  Take that responsibility on yourself and just do it....the system will take care of the rest.  In addition just venting here on Susan's is a great therapy in itself (for me at least). 

Zombie, find a way to make it through.  Once you get out on your own, you'll be able to make the decisions for yourself and get help.  You have come to a place where many (including me) have had similar thoughts and feelings as you.  If you can open up and participate, you may find something very helpful.

Suicidal thoughts are selfish thoughts and you have expressed them so well in your post. Please find something in yourself worth living for.  Regardless what you think, you are important to those who love you.  Certainly, they may not understand, but they would be devastated if you were to leave like that.

Hang on kiddo.

Chin up and all of that

Cindi

Hi Zomb,

   I have been feeling close to what you are feeling now. I was full of positive energy for a while, but, I'm starting to think negatively a lot.
   When I was your age, I felt as black inside as you do and, definately had no words with which to describe the condition. If you can feel bad, or even numb, then it means that you do have feelings and are capable of having good feelings as well as bad ones.
   I would do what Brandi said and contact a professional without even having your parents do it with you. Since you obviously are reaching out, you most definately have the Will power to overcome your present gloom.

   As for me, I know for a fact that I will not hurt myself, so I'm just wasting my time thinking about death when I should be finding constructive methods with which to handle my immediate problems. Problems that are not immediate can just go bite themselves.

   You are just beginning a journey that will pay off big for you if you face it head on. Your biggest asset is the strength you carry with you.


Peace,

Rebecca

   

Zombie...
  With your attitude you have one foot in the grave already !  your almost gone already!
now snap out of it ! ...
  Life is what YOU make of it ... it can be happy or it can be sad ...and i realise at this point you could care less because nothing matters anymore..... NOTHING  !  Been there done that !   that is caused by your being depressed, even when you don't feel depressed it is still hainging on your shoulders and dragging you down ! stopping you from getting any Joy out of life at all....  your sort'a on the down hill side and the hill is steep and any movement makes you slide down hill a little bit more.
....
  Zombie.... thats a good expression of how you feel I am sure... alive but numb... non careing completely oblivious to your surroundings... and wish it would end.  but YOU can
change that my friend....  I know because I have done it . I was there just like you are
that state of who gives a f--- about anything ! ...
  the Worst part is you see no way out... at all, and you've looked hard for a very long time... but there is just no way out of this feeling, attitude, or life what ever you want to call it  Right ?.... THE PROBLEM IS  YOU CAN'T SEE IT FROM YOUR POSITION !...
there is a way out , and it is Not Sewierside !   Right now you are so far down the hole you can't see the exit.... all you see is the darkness  ...this is NORMAL ! when you get this far along there is no way out that you can see....  what you need to do is change your position... crawl up out of the hole untill you can see light at the end of the tunnel so you have a direction that you can go in.....
Do that by doing something you like .... or used to like to do... Remember the feeling of laughter, the feeling of fun...  thats in the right direction... move towards that!
... As much as you'ed like for it to all go away ... just one shot of fun and laughter just is a drop in the bucket.... and you'll slowly loose ground again till you find yourself right back where you were.... in misery.... So you need more, lots more
find something that puts a smile on your face  and do it, and do it again and again !
try to Remember what its like to be happy....  dredge up happy memories and re visit them often, make them your refuge when things are bad... they keep you from slideing down hill more.....
  Once you have a good view of "the Light at the end of the tunnel" You can actually start to enjoy yourself again... No realy !  right now its impossable  because of your attitude, you need to adjust your attitude  inorder to be happy , right now you have it on "be sad/whats the use in trying"... and thats a very strong setting ! change it to be "happy/ have fun..."
Now I realise to alot of people this sounds like a load of Hog-wash  but believe me it is not.   Your mind controls everything about you... from your pain to your eleation.
we all know that, and its no revelation to anyone. but your mind controls your Happyness as well, and your saddness,   and up to now you've let it go on about its business with no interfearance from you.....
and look where your at!!!!! 
controling your own thoughts is the only answer for this type of thinking.

I never said it would be easy.... and its not. its a constant struggle for a long time.
but after a while it becomes automatic, and your happy all the time..... isn't that what you'ed rather have ?
  Make up your mind to be happy no matter what !  and start thinking on how you can be
instead of going along for the ride and  takeing what ever life throws at you .
its up to you !
its not someone elses responcability... your happyness is your responcability and no one elses.....if your sad , its your fault because "YOU ALOWED IT".  Take control of yourself
in "ALL ASPECTS"... and make your life worth liveing again !

my 2 coppers...
Bob..........

Matt...
I am not a doctor but that is pretty classical symptoms of depression not necessarily suicide (i do not think personally suicide is a basic condition - it's an action or act)
It's a shame you're under aged if that is the right term cause maybe some mild antidepressants would help you to work through some things...
When i was in my teens i was not suicidal at all that i recall i was just about everything else but the thought of suicide was enough to scare me off... It was not until after i served in the military and got older in mid twenties and had a few years of therapy that i turned down that road and yes being depressed was the first right hand turn i made...
It sulks your energy, your thinking, it saps any will or love for people or things you have, it allows you to be reckless with your own self-physically and mentally....
Tell-tale signs.
My advice with knowing so little about you my friend is to work through some of this for right now. Consider this, one (anyone by one i mean) can kill himself or herself anytime really so why make it something now when although life is very ugly and painful you have not even worked into your early adult years?  hindsight is a powerfull tool as is lifes lessons but they'd do none of us anygood had we not lived through some of the miseries and struggles we've had....to look back on (painful or not) as experiences to help us make more choices for future events.
Honestly Matt, consider this: that one can  kill himself or herself anytime really?, why make it something on your agenda now?  If it's something you could always do anyway?- do it a lot later when you've had some time and exhausted all the opportunities out there for you to help yourself....
This is quite often when i get down what keeps me up then knowing that if there is such a control point in suicide then really save that option for when you're 80 years old and you have lived the lifetime to decide better.
Please consider this and what was on this long thread some awfully painful stories and some darn good advices for anyone to learn from
hugs
Ricki

Well stated Ricki My sedimants exactly.
Bob.......

thanks bob!
have a good new year thus coming!
Ricki

Passive suicide, anyone? >_>
Was feeling positive that things would change and I only had x amount of time to go, but its all downhill now. My thoughts scream Matt, suck it up and take it like a man. I want to be loved, so bad. Think that's my problem, I want something I can never have.

These days I go off at everybody, mom's threatened to call the cops on me several times but course she never does. All my life all I heard was 'I love you' and no actions backing it up. Now I've distanced myself from everybody I once knew, school, old friends, but I don't care. They'd probably never have accepted me. I want somebody say its alright but its not. I want someone to >-bleeped-<ing take me seriously, my transition.

I'm not gonna go off and kill myself cuz I haven't gotten that hopeless yet. I have my moments where I snap and forget about my girlfriend who has been more than I could ask for and think I'm gonna kill myself, but I wisen up real quick. I still want to live, just not like this. I love her more than anything and she's accepted me for who I am. She's a state away though and I can't see her for several months yet. But she loves me. Then why do I feel this >-bleeped-<ty?

Sometimes I'll do the passive suicide thing for a week or so. Don't take care of nothing, ask to be arrested for half the things I do, do stuff I know won't kill me but will come close. I like that feeling, coming close to death. When I was 3 I almost drowned..I liked that feeling. The blue, black, bye now, feeling.

Now that I've vented my emo soul now, I'm off to eat out with the family and gain more of a girlish ass. >.< The only reason I told them I'd go is cause I get sirred in public, and the feeling of the sexy (alright, sometimes) waitress sirring me is almost like love. Almost.

Matt

Now I'm thinking about going to the hospital..I cant get these thoughts out of my head. I need er..stitches. Agh >-bleeped-< it. Call a hotline? Something? I don't know. Calm down Matt this is nothing..no one will take you seriously.

You can\'t give every person that commits suicide a generalized opinion, and I don\'t think that you can judge people who commit suicide. It\'s circumstantial, has to do with mental issues, deals with family, environment, and what\'s going on through the person\'s head.  I, personally, don\'t frown upon people who commit suicide, because who knows the amount of pain they have expierienced, and even if you do...you can never fully put yourself into someone else\'s shoes. I dont condone suicide, I believe there are other ways to deal with your problems; but I don\'t judge people who commit it.

Suicide doesn't usually "Just happen" it builds, it festers in your mind.  In my life I don't think I could "plan" suicide, it is the "one instant" or "moment" that worries me.

That one second when my mind is overwhelmed and reacts without thinking or planning.

That is what I told my therapist in am email the other day, just after I had to drop a knife I was using to cut meat because of the weird thoughts that started to go through my mind.

Sarah L.

----------------------------

Do you ever feel abandoned.  I know it isn't true, but I feel that way sometimes.  I am stressed today and my therapist had to cancel again.  It really isn't her fault, her mother is dying of cancer and only expected to live another week or two.

It gets hard, I can't write this to her, it isn't fair, she has enough problems of her own.

Don't mind me, just going through some self pity.

I decided to admit myself to the psych ward.  I feared my insurance wouldn't cover this if I went against medical advice so I agreed to follow the doctor's recommendation.  I'm happy I did.  It got me away from the bad influences in my life and helped break some very bad habits.

This is something which never occur with me.

Given what I have observed and experienced in over forty years, my contempt for the mental 'health' profession, runs very deep.

I have no options there now.

I acknowledge your rationale for 'keeping on keeping on' as I have stated as much myself, but a substantial part of me wants to find sufficient justification for closing this final chapter in the horror novel of my life and 'altruism' is an innately insufficient pretext for continuance.

Interesting thoughts on the subject. I guess a lot of us have contemplated this one way or another. I certainly know the thought invades my mind every once in a while when things get really tough emotionally but I know I won't do anything, I wouldn't want my family to suffer because of my decision. But the thought is certainly liberating.

2bh its a real option for me, well posibility is prob the best word. I think about it alot, and know how i would do it. Between trans issues and finaltal stuff at home it just keeps building up. If 2 things happen in my life ( expect to know the 1st thing soon) i may be at plan z but we'll see how things go. The family aspect is hard though, i dont want to damage kids or lower their opinion of me. Never gonna ammit that in person with anyone though.

Theres only so much bad stuff the world can throw at someone before they loose faith in the world.

Quote from: Shambles on June 26, 2018, 09:11:54 AM
2bh its a real option for me, well posibility is prob the best word. I think about it alot, and know how i would do it. Between trans issues and finaltal stuff at home it just keeps building up. If 2 things happen in my life ( expect to know the 1st thing soon) i may be at plan z but we'll see how things go. The family aspect is hard though, i dont want to damage kids or lower their opinion of me. Never gonna ammit that in person with anyone though.

Theres only so much bad stuff the world can throw at someone before they loose faith in the world.

Agreed. Transition isn't easy...