Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Transgender Woman Brutally Beaten in Queens Bias Attack - TLDEF Demands Full Investigation Into Hate Crime

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We're sad to bring you the news of another brutal attack on a transgender woman, this one coming during the height of LGBT Pride month. On June 19, 2009, at approximately 2:30 am, Leslie Mora was walking home from a nightclub on Roosevelt Avenue in Queens when she was accosted by two men who brutally beat her with a belt. They stopped only when a passing motorist threatened to call the police.

Throughout the attack, Leslie's assailants called her a "->-bleeped-<-got" in Spanish. The attack left Leslie with multiple injuries, including bruises all over her body, and stitches in her scalp. Police called to the scene found Leslie nearly naked and bleeding on the sidewalk. They also recovered a belt buckle from the assailants that was covered in blood.

I lived in Queens and walking Roosevelt Avenue at 2:30 AM without a armed guard is suicide. It is obvious that she was not a native.

Yeah, you can only cover stupid so far.

I can see some what why you would call this person stupid, but all that aside, perhaps we need to look at our society as a whole, and figure out how these communites can change for the better. Call me an optimist, but as a young veteran and having served in dangerous regions of the globe, i've seen the enormous affects of what COMMITED people will do for peace.

Cheers,
~M

NO.  No.  NO. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.  Some places its not safe to walk no matter who you are.  This is about ten of those places.

You know? I get really tired of hearing people blame the victim.

Me too.  On the other hand, I'm tried of people who are too stupid to know where in the hell (literally) they are.  Ask Nichole where in Philly she don't go after dark, I'm sure, it looks like a huge section of the city.

And here is the deal.  You can't go down there in man mode bitch, without getting the snot beat out of you.  It's not about gender, its about a whole lot more.

Once again my friends, ladies and gentlemen, I cannot stress enough about being aware of your surroundings and learning some form of self defense. Even if that defense is learning to avoid and/or escape bad situations. Please don't blatantly lay yourself out to be the victim. I am not placing blame on anyone other than the perp.s of this crime. But, I feel a little forethought and readiness could have averted such a terrible occurrence. I hope for her wounds to heal quickly.

I don't care how motherf*****g tough you think you are, how much firepower you have, there are places in major US cities, where you best not be caught after dark.  Drag queen or U.S. Ranger (ret).  no difference.

Quote from: tekla on June 30, 2009, 10:41:07 PM
I don't care how motherf*****g tough you think you are, how much firepower you have, there are places in major US cities, where you best not be caught after dark.  Drag queen or U.S. Ranger (ret).  no difference.

True that. That's were the being aware of your surroundings and the avoid and escape plan comes into play  ;)

OR, - I know a silly thought - don't go into those neighborhoods.

Quote from: tekla on June 30, 2009, 11:04:50 PM
OR, - I know a silly thought - don't go into those neighborhoods.

Yeah, same idea, more understandable terminology  :laugh:

Where the hell were her friends?
Why the hell did they let her walk home alone at 2:30 a.m.?
Dammit, you go out, you have a responsibility for the people you're with. You better make sure everyone gets home safe. No excuses. No letting someone say "oh, it's only a few blocks, I'll just go alone." If it's only a few blocks, you can walk with them.

Unless you live in Paonia, Colorado or Tonopah, Nevada or some other godforsaken town where there's more danger of a mountain lion attack than a mugging, GET YOUR FRIENDS HOME SAFE! And even in Paonia, don't assume that the mountain lions won't be out that night.

Quote from: tekla on June 30, 2009, 11:04:50 PM
OR, - I know a silly thought - don't go into those neighborhoods.

of course, on the other hand, you can go to sleep with your boyfriend on a beach near jenner and both get shot dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenner,_California_Double-Murder_of_2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenner,_California_Double-Murder_of_2004)

sometimes it is just wrong place, wrong time

Ummm, they were Christians.  So perhaps the gays were to blame.

I've spend several nights out there, since about 1972, and I'm still here.  So it goes.

yeah i know they were xtians.  wasn't it just down the road from there where there was a home invasion a while back and two idiots killed an older couple over their credit or atm cards?

Ummmm, it's California, everywhere is just down the road from a robbery.

Quote from: tekla on June 30, 2009, 09:29:42 PM
Ask Nichole where in Philly she don't go after dark, I'm sure, it looks like a huge section of the city.

Let's begin with Kensington.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on June 30, 2009, 11:41:47 PM
Where the hell were her friends?
GET YOUR FRIENDS HOME SAFE!

Truly. And when able, bring complete strangers to safety. One way to make new friends  :laugh:

Quote from: Virginia Marie on July 01, 2009, 12:40:02 AM
Truly. And when able, bring complete strangers to safety. One way to make new friends  :laugh:

Yes, yes, yes, amen, sister!

More than once, I've driven an hour out of my way to help out someone I'd never met, but who was in a bind. Other times, I didn't have to go out of my way at all. I have a car. I might as well do something useful with it.

I have some thoughts and theories on this. First, I disagree with comments that "you shouldn't walk on certain street...be out at certain times of the night...walk home by yourself," etc. First of all, unless the news article said something I missed, none of us know the reasons she was where she was and there could have been a valid reason or circumstance. Regardless, this is supposed to be a free country where as adults we have the right to do whatever we please as long as we are not infringing on other people's freedoms. This transwoman was not bothering anyone and no one had the right to bother her let alone violently attack her. I disagree with fearmongering that you must adapt your lifestyle limiting your freedoms and habits out of fear that someone may hurt you. Nobody whether a police officer or a criminal is going to tell me what street I can be on at what time and for what reason. Period.

I have a theory on why some of these attacks are occurring and some of the responses to them. I read extensively not too long ago a database of at least 100 hate crime trans murders compiled in a project called "Remembering our Dead." There have been very few (although there have been some) hate crime murders in Arizona--the state where I live. This is surprising considering we have the fifth largest city in the U.S. and it is still a conservative state. A high percentage of these murders appeared in California and New York, two more liberal states. While these states also have high populations I don't believe this is why so many trannies are violently attacked in those areas.

My conclusion is that this is in part because those states don't allow people to carry weapons and especially guns while a lot of other states including my own do. A large number of my TG friends either regularly carry handguns or keep them in their cars and also have more guns in their homes. No permit is required to carry openly and a concealed-carry permit is easy to obtain. When a TG here in Phoenix decides to walk home late at night by herself there is a fairly good chance she has a gun, knife, taser, or can of mace in her purse and is not afraid to use it. The same is not true in New York or California.

I don't mean to turn this into a self-defense/gun debate but I can't let these personal observations go unnoticed. People who live in states that expect you to be helpless and stay out of the street late at night are bound to have a different sense of safety reality than those who live in states where people outright expect you to take care of yourself. Therefore, the arguments here that "you have no business being out on that street at that time of night alone" is completely ridiculous to me. We are sovereign citizens. I will not ask the government to keep me safe nor am I going to change my life to suit the fears and ignorance of others. I will wear a dress if I want to and nobody will stop me from doing so without facing a deserved and warranted response.

Yea time and place are def one thing to always keep aware of.  I do agree with carrying a handgun, lol,go figure me living in mt.  Speaking of which ive been meaning to get a gun.

How are comments suggesting that walking alone at night is extremely risky in certain areas any less apropos than turning this into a gun debate, which surely your comments will do?

Look, I'm glad your gun makes you feel safe. Your gun does not make me feel safe. And your conclusion seems to be based on a poor understanting of statistics, demography, and the reasons behind gun laws in places like NY or CA.

p.s. Audrey, isn't it past your bedtime? (Sez me, being in the same time zone.) :P g'night.

First, I disagree with comments that "you shouldn't walk on certain street...be out at certain times of the night.

You don't live in a real city do you?

Regardless, this is supposed to be a free country where as adults we have the right to do whatever we please as long as we are not infringing on other people's freedoms.

Apparently, the rights of some people are to rob and kill you.

I disagree with fearmongering that you must adapt your lifestyle limiting your freedoms and habits out of fear that someone may hurt you. Nobody whether a police officer or a criminal is going to tell me what street I can be on at what time and for what reason. Period.

Cover yourself with butter girl, you are toast.

About six months ago, four (4) Oakland police officers (who have guns, are trained to use them, hell, they like to use them, and they have extra ammo on THEIR BELT) were gunned down in broad daylight.  And your chance in that same neighborhood at night is ? ? ?

I'm thinking zero, but perhaps I'm overly optimistic, I'd really give you less chance than that.

You know that most of the 'remembering our dead' were killed in areas where lots of other (read: non trans) persons are killed all the freaking time?

My conclusion is that this is in part because those states don't allow people to carry weapons and especially guns while a lot of other states including my own do.
OK, just in case you missed it.  FOUR COPS, with guns, were all killed.  Having guns, having ammo, having training didn't stop the AK-47 (our gun laws allow it to be sold, and you can get the full auto stuff on the web) sprayed death all over them.  THEY WERE COPS.  THEY HAD GUNS.  THEY ARE DEAD.  Something about that you missed?

You think you can walk into a ghetto with some pea shooter and walk out?  Sure.

People who live in states that expect you to be helpless and stay out of the street late at night are bound to have a different sense of safety reality than those who live in states where people outright expect you to take care of yourself.

New York has strict handgun controls, as does D.C.  good luck on your walking tour at night.  But some places with no regulations, well, good luck on that whole trans deal.  They love that in those places.

I will wear a dress if I want to and nobody will stop me from doing so without facing a deserved and warranted response.
Nichole and I could both point you down a street that within a few houses would have you reconsidering that particular piece of idiocy.

So sad for the girl, and yes tragic that her friends or colleagues didn't help her home.

Carry a big gun and be safe?
I know that you are in the US. As far as I can tell if you carry a gun, mister rape carries a gun; they equal out. I get the impression that many crims ( certaily in Oz) are high on all sorts of s***t. Don't give a damn. Don't think. Don't respond. No logic. There is no defence against things like that. You cannot use pre-emptive force so you are going to suffer their abuse until you can self defence. If they are under drugs they probably don't feel the pain until much later - too long for you.

There is very little self defence that works against multiple opponents, unless you have LOTS of training, are physically large, and are willing to commit to a very high level of violence.

Feel sad for the poor girl, at least they may have DNA evidence.

Bastards
Cindy

Quote from: tekla on June 30, 2009, 09:29:42 PM
Me too.  On the other hand, I'm tried of people who are too stupid to know where in the hell (literally) they are.  Ask Nichole where in Philly she don't go after dark, I'm sure, it looks like a huge section of the city.

And here is the deal.  You can't go down there in man mode bitch, without getting the snot beat out of you.  It's not about gender, its about a whole lot more.

I have to agree with this. My first thought on reading the story was "What the hell was she doing out walking at 2:30 am by herself?" Seriously, if this had been a GG it probably would have ended up being a beating and a rape. The fact that she was trans probably meant just the beating. I don't know. Women have learned over the centuries there are safe places and dangerous places.

There are some places many men wouldn't go after night for being the wrong race. It is sad in today's society that there are places you should just not venture down at night and some during the day. This could have been a white guy and he may have gotten the crap beat out of him as well. I think the key is, do as the other girls do. You don't see them walking the streets alone at night unless they have a pimp.

Britney can I buy life insurance for you making me the beneficiary?

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/06/another-sister-attacked.html (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/06/another-sister-attacked.html)

To answer Tekla's question, yes I do live in a real city and one much larger than the one in your profile. I live in Phoenix, the fifth largest city in the U.S. and a city which has some of the highest crime rates in certain categories in the country. I don't argue that anyone should think themselves invincible. I also don't think people should unnecessarily put themselves in harm's way. The officers who were killed do not necessarily fit the situation we are discussing. That is because cops are regularly paid to deliberately go into dangerous areas and fight criminals making their chances of getting killed much higher.

Most citizens like us don't go out of our ways to put ourselves in danger but occasionally we can end up in a bad neighborhood for one reason or another. Some trans people may actually live in particular ghettos and grow up there. My argument is that you have the legal right to walk in any neighborhood at any time in any city without being harmed. These are human rights. Your silly statement "the rights of some people are to rob and kill you" makes no sense. Those are not rights, they are choices criminals make in an attempt to take other people's rights away (by robbing and killing them). Nobody has a right to do that stuff. You are trying to make two things equal here when they are clearly not.

My argument isn't about guns, it's about human rights and freedom. Ultimately the argument comes down to two possibilities:

1) My view: You have the right to be who you are (trans or not) and present your gender however you please (freedom of expression). People especially trans people should use common sense and logical street smarts when out and about. This means don't go out of your way looking for trouble. On the other hand, you have the right to feel free going to the clubs you go to, taking the quickest and most efficient routes home, and plan your life according to your needs and schedule. You have the right to protect yourself from those who would do you harm.

2. The other argument which sounds more like yours: Accept the reality as it is. The world is dangerous. Some cities and particularly some neighborhoods and especially at certain times at night are very dangerous and should be avoided. Therefore, plan your life according to the existing reality and away from the danger. If that means not going out some night, not going to a certain club, taking a longer route than usual, or otherwise changing plans to avoid a possible yet not definite danger, then do so. If it means not dressing a certain way, then don't. Your habits should take in consideration the perceived dangers first and your wants and needs second.

Both arguments in essense are correct but it really is up to the individual to decide what they prefer. If you value life over liberty, option two is the best. If you value liberty over life, take option one. That is really what it comes down to: fear or freedom.

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Post Merge: July 02, 2009, 01:18:46 AM

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Quote from: Lori on July 01, 2009, 06:55:08 AM
I have to agree with this. My first thought on reading the story was "What the hell was she doing out walking at 2:30 am by herself?" Seriously, if this had been a GG it probably would have ended up being a beating and a rape. The fact that she was trans probably meant just the beating. I don't know. Women have learned over the centuries there are safe places and dangerous places.

There are some places many men wouldn't go after night for being the wrong race. It is sad in today's society that there are places you should just not venture down at night and some during the day. This could have been a white guy and he may have gotten the crap beat out of him as well. I think the key is, do as the other girls do. You don't see them walking the streets alone at night unless they have a pimp.

I think the problem here is that we are asking the wrong questions. When a victim is attacked (such as the one discussed here) we ask questions related to the victim's behavior instead of questions related to the perpetrator's or overall society's behavior. Instead of asking why a girl would be out late at night alone, we should be asking why in this "free society" anyone should have to be afraid to be out at night. There are a lot of trans people who live and have grown up in bad neighborhoods. There can be numerous reasons why a person would be out late at night. The car could have broken down. The friend never came to pick her up. She may have not had a car or any friends and may not have had any money for a taxi ride home. Maybe in this girl's case she didn't make the wisest choices but the same may not be the case with the next girl or the one after that. Again people are asking the wrong questions here in my opinion. If we don't start asking the right questions, then society will never change.

The Phoenix Metro area is larger than the SF Bay Area by 7,000 people.  Considering that SF, Oakland and Phoenix are all sanctuary cities, there is no way to declare a true winner.

You're absolutely right-  I have the right to walk whatever way home I see fit.  Unfortunately there are people who take exception to this.  Is the solution really to arm myself, knowing that someone who doesn't receive ongoing training is likely to have their gun turned against them, or to walk two extra blocks or hail a cab?  Seems crazy to me that you'd risk being killed (or worse- beaten so badly you wish you were killed) instead of $5 or $10 in cab fare.

I live on a halfway decent block surrounded by some of the worst neighborhoods in the city.  6th Street in SF is world renowned for its number of heroin overdoses.  The TL has the highest transgender murder rate in the world.  From my apartment safely above the street, I hear people smash car windows almost every night.  If I need something at 3am, which 24 hour grocery store do I go to?  The closer one on the edge of the TL, several blocks from the nearest bus line?  Or almost two miles away to the horribly crowded Safeway where one of 8 or 9 bus roues drops me within a half block?

So, yeah, I think I'm just going to walk where ever I please, when ever I please. Matter of fact I'm going to go walk right into the Cook Nuclear Power plant a few miles over. matter of fact I'm going to strip naked and walk right into the reactor room. I think I'll sodomize myself with a nuclear fuel rod while I'm in there.... sheez really! 

Its called common sense. If you know the dog bites don't pet it, if you know its a bad part of town don't go walking around in it.

I feel bad for the woman but I wont even walk home alone at 2:30 in the morning from the gay/trans club here and I live in pretty safe city.

It would be so nice if all people were decent but the sad truth is there are a lot of mean people out there and mean people are, well, mean!

QuoteI think the problem here is that we are asking the wrong questions. When a victim is attacked (such as the one discussed here) we ask questions related to the victim's behavior instead of questions related to the perpetrator's or overall society's behavior.

In a reasonable, logical world we would focus on the assailants. But if we lived in a world like that, they wouldn't exist. You can't alter their behavior - however, you can alter your own behavior to avoid the circumstances.

My situational awareness has been developing over the last year. The first time my brain went 'Hey, uh, you look like a woman, it's 12:30 am, and you've got a parking garage to go through.' Of course, I live in a very nice suburb so the risk of something bad actually happening is fairly small - but it's important to recognize that it's generally not the best idea.

I used to be pretty fearless, partially spurred on by a friend I had when I first ever lived in a big city. She had ridiculous balls of steel and I don't think I'd want to spend all night wandering around a major metro city for kicks at this point. It's a shame, it was really beautiful walking the city at night.

Sometimes it's not an option to avoid... but if you can manage to avoid it, it's probably worth the inconvenience and money.

Of course, living life completely in fear isn't a reasonable alternative, but just because a lot of people do something doesn't mean it isn't a mistake. I think I'm starting to understand the whole 'feeling safe' thing women say about guys. And most of my female friends have a boyfriend or live-in relationship, versus a lot of my male friends being single.

I've also been thinking about the functionality versus fashion of shoes. As much as I like the more interesting and cuter shoes that I've been considering, anything that you can't pull a dead run in could cost you dearly.

Putting yourself at risk by knowingly walking into a dangerous environment is not a smart move.  The point about ones rights is true, however there's no point in being the most righteous corpse in the morgue.

The keyword here is "knowingly".  As a stranger, it's too easy to turn a corner from a generally "safe" street and end up in a very unfriendly environment without any warning at all.  That can be most disconcerting when it happens (and it has happened to me, in regular daylight hours I might add).

In this particular case, it's possible but unlikely that a visitor unfamiliar with the place would choose to walk home alone at that hour without at least asking some precautionary questions.

Quote from: Cami on July 02, 2009, 02:00:50 AM
matter of fact I'm going to strip naked and walk right into the reactor room. I think I'll sodomize myself with a nuclear fuel rod while I'm in there.... sheez really! 

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ficanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com%2F2007%2F04%2Fomg.jpg&hash=85c3b913c57de1f4d8b6f762065fec1750d57dfb)

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Post Merge: July 02, 2009, 08:50:00 AM

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Quote from: Britney_413 on July 02, 2009, 01:09:15 AM
I think the problem here is that we are asking the wrong questions. When a victim is attacked (such as the one discussed here) we ask questions related to the victim's behavior instead of questions related to the perpetrator's or overall society's behavior. Instead of asking why a girl would be out late at night alone, we should be asking why in this "free society" anyone should have to be afraid to be out at night. There are a lot of trans people who live and have grown up in bad neighborhoods. There can be numerous reasons why a person would be out late at night. The car could have broken down. The friend never came to pick her up. She may have not had a car or any friends and may not have had any money for a taxi ride home. Maybe in this girl's case she didn't make the wisest choices but the same may not be the case with the next girl or the one after that. Again people are asking the wrong questions here in my opinion. If we don't start asking the right questions, then society will never change.

Fact is, genetically there are a$$holes that will kill you and all the rules, laws, and whatever you want in place is not going to stop somebody from doing something bad to somebody else. Like getting rid of all the guns on the planet won't stop people from killing each other. I know what you are saying but unless you lock every a$$hole up on the planet, who do have rights to be a$$holes, this cycle will continue. There is no way to stop the violence. It is going to happen. Asking a question in any other way isn't going to help. There is no way to solve this problem except don't put yourself in a situation that leaves you vulnerable.

It is sad that you cannot walk in some cities at night. It may be your legal right but those rights come with a cost and consequences. I don't look at them like rights. I see them as privileges. They have to be earned. When enough people get tired of the violence, things may change. I'm not going to hold my breath and walk around late at night because its my right. I'll read about those that do in the paper.

Shheeesshh! Only from my judgment of some of the postings in this thread, I wonder how we ever took the risk to even attempt to become a free and open society?

I don't intend to be a martyr, however, someone at some point would need to stand up and and say enough is enough! Shouldn't that be the point of the OP. You, that live in these towns and cities should attend the local council meetings and make demands for your puiblic safety. You should not have to live in such fear or even accept that it exists as though it is in some twisted way acceptable or normal!

When I go out (granted I don't live the "night life") I am very much aware of my surroundings and I have been through Oakland and even stopped at a local grocery store and asked for directions. Maybe I was just lucky, stupid or something else. But I carry myself with confidence and show no outward sense of insecurity when I am in these environments. For Pete's sake, I had to learn that concept from living in Mountain View and Palo Alto as a kid!

Yes there are risks, but I despise living in fear and worry even more so. As for carrying a weapon, well, I guess those that would try me now will have to take that risk. Does she or doesn't she? When I was younger I was beat near death once by as many as four others. It occured not because of being Trans. It occured because of my own stupidity, I allowed myself to lose control of me and my surroundings (alcohol). Thirty years later that has not and will not happen again (not, at least to the best of my ability and hopefully great personal bodily injury to the bad guy(s)). My overall message here is make yourself prepared and you'll stand less of a chance at becoming the next victim!

I'm now off my soap box, go ahead have at me, lol.



Dawn

Just want to say ...

Look, there's a place for telling people not to do stupid things.
There's a place for debating whether guns make things safer or worse.

But I think it's sad that the first response to an awful crime like this is to blame the victim -- which both of those impulses do.

Most crime victims have made a poor decision somewhere along the line, but you're a damned fool if you think that you'll absolutely never get in that situation. Sometimes the s**t hits the fan, and you're out of options. Remember that the poorest decision involved here was the decision of a couple bigots model citizens and pillars of the community to beat the snot out of a girl for no reason but that they didn't like how she looked. I hope they pay dearly for that decision.

--

Now: I don't care how armed you are, or even if you are a cop yourself. Some places you don't walk alone. And Phoenix a "real city"? Riiiight. It's not just about population. By the way, lots of Oakland is very nice, especially during the day. Like any city, there are nice parts and bad parts.

Quotea couple bigots

That is also a debate. Just calling people names does not automatically make you a bigot. In NYC some cultures only use names to describe each other with no bigotry untented. Anyone regardless of their nickname or given nickname derived from first impression could have been killed. In order to prove hate crime above an ordinary crime one has to have the evidence of hate which in that culture a name does no prove.

Are you for real? I'm not a journalist or on any jury; I think I can draw the overwhelmingly likely conclusion without making a federal case out of it. And who cares, anyway? Bigot is just about the nicest thing you can call a couple of guys that beat someone walking home from a club nearly to death for pretty much any reason at all. Perhaps you'd prefer "upstanding pillars of the community" or "model citizens"? Actually, I kind of like the sound of that.

Hi Alyssa!

I'm only supposing that the post after mine is/was directed toward me. It's OK, no complaints on it. I appreciate your perspective. However, I have to respectfully disagree with a portion of it and clarify another. As well I agree with some of what you said.

I agree this is not the thread to decide on any "gun issue". My only reference in self-protection here was described as "weapon" not "gun". You'll just have to make your own asssumptions about what "weapon" I may or may not have.

I also agree that it is wrong to blame the victim. This was never an intent from anything I said. If that's what came through, I will clarify; based upon the information provided, this person clearly had no cause to become a victim. She was brutalized horribly and very lucky to be alive! Just reading about the attack brought back vivid memories as to my own encounter I spoke of.

On the disagreement side, (and maybe this wasn't directed toward me) I never said she was stupid. Likewise I never said she "should carry a gun". So I take issue with your premis that I am blaming her as a victim. It just seems the gist of this thread has drifted toward staying away from these areas like she was in, for fear and with knowledge of what might happen to you. Personally I have to take issue with that line of thinking. Pretty soon you might just be so frightened that you won't even leave home. Well, yeah there are people already living that reality, aren't there? And, their happy and safe? No, it's situations like these that I would hope for more activism directed at public safety for all. Get down to your courthouse and raise hell with someone until you get an ear! For crying out loud, your paying taxes, aren't you? You're a human being aren't you? You deserve a better quality of life, don't you? Don't you deserve to live in peace without fear?

Utopian? I don't think so. Realistic? Not unless YOU (you, euphemism for community) make it happen!

More to the point of what I was saying, we need not become victims. It's not necessarily foolish ("damned fool") for making a mistake that ultimately turns you into a victim. It is however, naive to think that it can never happen to you. That was not an assumption I was making. When you're out in public be prepared for where ever you are. As much so as make sense. Again, I am not blaming her for her victimization. But, I and, we can learn a valuable lesson here in maintaining and using good common sense when a.) you might be out alone and, b.) you might be in unfamiliar surroundings. To do otherwise would be foolish.

Lastly, in my opinion, I agree with you! These people (term used loosely) are bigots! They are thugs, too! They're bigoted thugs of the worst type! And, to not try these creeps with a hate crime is just inconceivable! More activism, people!


Dawn

Hi Dawn,

While my post followed yours, and was in part prompted by yours, it was not directed at you in any way. I think you'll find what I was referring to in previous posts. I appreciated your more positive and compassionate point of view, and took the opportunity of the change of subject to add some thoughts I'd had from pretty much the start of this thread.

I'm terribly sorry that you were the victim of this kind of crime; I've never been in such a situation, but I know some people who have. It's awful, and it's never the fault of the victim no matter what poor decisions lead up to the crime. I don't say that because I think anybody disagrees, nor to refute anyone's arguments, but only because I think that fact sometimes get lost in the questioning of the victim's decisions. In other words, there are perhaps lessons to be learned, but compassion should always come first.

~A

Hi Allyssa!

QuoteI don't say that because I think anybody disagrees, nor to refute anyone's arguments, but only because I think that fact sometimes get lost in the questioning of the victim's decisions. In other words, there are perhaps lessons to be learned, but compassion should always come first.

Yes, it is very easy to forget the victim and try to affix blame over fixing the real problem. Sometimes we get swept up into the vortex of a topic (this applies to me, guilty as charged :eusa_shifty:) to the point that what is of paramount concern (in this case her life) is easily cast aside in order to argue for issues that are none the less important. Any person caught in the horrifying situation as she was, should never be made to look at fault for their experience.

Good to talk with you!


Dawn

Ok, to answer a few responses here. First, Alyssa's response of Phoenix not being a "real city" is a bit childish and irrelevant. By definition Phoenix is a city and the 5th largest one in the country. People can certainly have differences of opinions on the quality of the city and ways in which it differs for better or worse than other cities. That's not the point here.

The actual topic is about a crime victim who was brutally attacked because she was trans. It has been clearly noted that she was walking home alone late at night. I'm not familiar with that city so I don't know what that particular street or neighborhood was really like.

Anyway, most people here argue that while yes you have a right to walk down the street, using street smarts you may consider avoiding it altogether. I never said that anyone should unnecessarily put themselves in harm's way. If an individual does not feel comfortable doing something, they shouldn't do it. I also don't think people should put themselves in harm's way just because they can.

The point that people in general are missing here is that we don't know all of the circumstances. There are reasons people do things. Even if it doesn't apply to this girl, it could apply to the next. The girl may not have had money for a cab, may not have had a car, and may not have had any friends who could go with her. She may have had just enough money to afford one drink at the club and that was it and I don't think that being poor should prevent someone from ever having a little bit of entertainment when they can. She may have lived in that neighborhood and if not, the same could apply to the next girl. It is a little ridiculous to argue that someone can't or shouldn't walk in their own neighborhood. Can they move to a better one? Maybe, unless they can't afford to. She may have been walking there for a reason expecting to meet someone she knew around the next corner. She may have thought it was safe only to realize it wasn't.

The point here is that it is easy to stereotype and make blanket statements that someone "shouldn't put themselves in harm's way" but it isn't always all that simple. You don't always know what a place is like before you get there.

Third, poverty is something that is routinely ignored when scrutinizing the decision-making of transgender victims. A lot of t-girls are thrown out of their parents' homes, have no jobs, and no money. If they make the right choices in life then I believe they have a good chance of getting on their feet. The economy may be bad but there is still opportunity. However, few people get out of bad fixes instantly. If you have money, you can afford a taxi from your fancy condominium to a fancy club and back. You can afford to be around friends who also have money just like you who could pick you up and bring you back should you not be able to drive. If you have tons of money, you can afford bodyguards and even limousines. People who don't have money live in bad neighborhoods, have just enough to afford dive bars which are often filled with crime, and either walk or take mass transit (which they still have to walk to). Most of these people don't have computers nor can afford internet which is why you won't find them represented here at Susan's or anywhere else for that matter. It is easy for us "sheltered" people to argue that one should make wiser decisions but those people who have the same rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" as we do sadly don't have as many options.

So before blaming the victim, let's look at the big picture here.

I'm sorry but Phoenix? Safe?
Someone needs to read the news more.

I'm with Tekla to a point on this. You need to be aware and know the dangerous areas  of your town/city. If you know what to look for, it's not very hard to tell if you are in a bad area (usually).

I have lived in one of the worst gang cities in the U.S., drove delivery in another, and been through a few others (San Bernardino, Compton, East St. Louis...). I also lived in Phoenix and Mesa, while relatively safe in some places, there are others you don't go through in Phoenix.  Mesa/Phoenix/Tempe is a haven for other dangers as well. There are streets in many of the cities I mentioned that even cops will not go into without lots and lots of backup. You want to take a gun? Unless you have a tank, you're outgunned, trust me.



After having lived in these places...
The safest way, is to know the area, watch yourself, and RUN.
Avoiding or getting out of a bad situation before it escalates is the best way to survive. If you think a gun is helping, if it is to the point that you need a gun, you are already in way over your head.

Is it foolproof? Nothing ever is.
Having something like that on you, makes you  brave stupid. You will not back down as fast as you should or avoid confrontations. Many, many people are shot or stabbed by their own weapons because they either couldn't actually bring themselves to use it, or they were not skilled enough with it to do any good.

Take a self defense course, they are a good idea, however, take one that stresses evasion and escape.  You are no match for thugs, gun or no gun.



Keep in mind, most people who do this sort of thing NEVER do it when it is a fair fight.

Quote from: Britney_413 on July 04, 2009, 11:13:48 PMFirst, Alyssa's response of Phoenix not being a "real city" is a bit childish and irrelevant.

Well, then you understood me perfectly well. Frankly, I think whatever non-Queens place you might live has basically nothing to do with this very sad story. The population living within an arbitrary civic boundary in Arizona has even less to do with it. If the manner in which I responded seeemed childish to you, it's probably because I just thought the whole argument was rather childish and irrelevant to begin with.

25 years ago my wife and I were camping on the banks of the Pentecost River in the Northern Territory (NT) a not quite state in Australia. We were about 200kms from Derby using a very bad 4WD track only. About 100kms from the nearest hard top road in the opposite direction. So pretty isolated. During the month we had two visitors, a group of Aborigines who crashed their car in the ford. Pulled them out and was told in return the secret Aboriginal way to catch Barramundi. (ask).

And a white guy who had got a flat battery in his 4WD (fool), he happened to live two streets away in my home town. 6 degrees of freedom.

We left. One year later a crazy German tourist (no racial offence meant or implied) went on a killing spree with high power weapons. Watching the News report he killed two people at the exact (?) spot we had camped at. Blew their heads of from 500m. No where is safe. Just live.

Cindy

After reading the news story and the posts here, Im thinking maybe theres a subtle point being missed here...

Arguing about criminal activity is beside the point... this was a targeted crime, and not one of robbery or rape. If you look at this woman's picture, she would easily pass as a GG, especially on a dark street at 230a. The assailants beat her and called her fa**ot. That would imply that they knew her... if thats the case, no place in any city would be safe, and time of day or night would have little to do with what happened.

BTW, there are far worse places that Roosevelt Ave in Queens. Ya'll make it sound like its a war zone. Having lived in Queens for the last 20+ years and having been all over the borough (as well as all over NYC) its no better/worse than many other places. You want dangerous? Try the South Bronx, Bedford-Sty, or *gasp* Newark NJ. Nobody gets out alive from New Jersey!  :D