Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hate 101: The Womyn Born Womyn Movement

http://standingwatch.net/2009/08/02/hate-101-the-womyn-born-womyn-movement/ (http://standingwatch.net/2009/08/02/hate-101-the-womyn-born-womyn-movement/)
8/2/09

There is a particularly confusing and controversial form of bigotry that exists within the lesbian population that subscribes to a particularly extreme and radical form of feminist politics and views, commonly referred to as "Womyn Born Womyn," or WBW. Womyn-born womyn policies center around the idea that women's experiences under patriarchy are unique, learned, and transformative. These policies assume that girls are forced to behave in a submissive and subjugated position in society, while boys and transgender children grow up in an environment of privilege and power over girls.

I think it's indisputable that girls-born-as-girls have different experiences than girls-born-as-boys.  I think it's also indisputable that girls-born-in-California have different experiences than girls-born-in-Vermont.  But we all grow up to be adults.  Many of us even act like adults.

Quote from: Nichole on August 03, 2009, 05:30:15 PM
She(?) makes excellent, and true, points.

The trouble with certain a priori mythical assumptions that underpin a political position is that they require mere belief and a desire to avoid any factual evidence of their truth. They appeal to "true believers" and other fearful bigots who would prefer a safe dictum rather than uncomfortable facts.

Yes, she.  It's my article and site, lol.

I'm glad to see someone gets the main point behind the article.  One of the things quite common to hate movements and groups is that a core group (sometimes just one or two individuals) tends to co-opt very real issues and concerns of the majority, and twists them into a policy of hatred and intolerance, which in turn expands the core group.  It also creates a sense of shame and deep self-loathing in some who are targeted, who them pretend to be something they are not, and who are then manipulated and exploited into perpetuating the hate (see some of the comments by "Nicky").

The goal of the site is to break that cycle, or at the very least expose it for what it is.

I did "enjoy" male privilege.  I got to work in construction for over 30 years.  And when I came out I got to enjoy discrimination at its finest.  And I got to watch the magic act as my reputation, respect and job disappeared.

I understand the idea of some women being uncomfortable with a pre-op.  The whole "penis in the bathroom" issue at work was nuclear to some at work.  Women who have been conditioned to believe the penis is a weapon can get very emotional when it invades their private territory.

As far as post-op discomfort, I don't get that at all.  And to say we haven't suffered like they is absurd.  No womyn would want to live the life of repression, persecution, discrimination, fear, rejection we know all too well.  Not to mention being born the wrong gender.

Julie

They are not saying you have not suffered, they are saying that you have no idea what they have had to go through, and, in that, I agree with them.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 04, 2009, 07:12:51 PM


I understand the idea of some women being uncomfortable with a pre-op.  The whole "penis in the bathroom" issue at work was nuclear to some at work.  Women who have been conditioned to believe the penis is a weapon can get very emotional when it invades their private territory.
Julie

Hmm...

For a martial art that CLAIMS to use all the natural weapons of the body, Muay Thai never taught us how to use THAT one. :icon_boxing:

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 04, 2009, 07:12:51 PM
I understand the idea of some women being uncomfortable with a pre-op.  The whole "penis in the bathroom" issue at work was nuclear to some at work.  Women who have been conditioned to believe the penis is a weapon can get very emotional when it invades their private territory.

Julie

I went through something similar at a job I had, after I was outed when the wrong person saw my pre-employment background report.  The problem is, as someone who has been raped, I fully understand the concern, and yet at the same time I don't like the idea I'm being labeled a potential rapist by virtue of what may or may not be between my legs.

I just wish I knew what the solution was.  I do know the extremist position of the WBW movement simply isn't it.

Am I the only person who has had it up to *here* listening to this group or that whining about how hard there experience has been and how somebody and everybody has had it better than them?

What I as a woman has had to "go through"

What I as a transsexual has had to "go through"

What I as a gay has had to "go through"

What I as a black has had to "go through"

What I as a [fill in victim status which applies here] has had to "go through"


Real world?

EVERYONE including "privileged"  straight white males have had to "go through" stuff.

Suck it up.

No. But they do have the right to group together with those that went through what they went through, and exclude the rest.  For sure on that.

Quote from: tekla on August 04, 2009, 07:19:29 PM
They are not saying you have not suffered, they are saying that you have no idea what they have had to go through, and, in that, I agree with them.

I realize that but what I'm saying is many people suffer but that's no reason to exclude them.  They have no idea what we have to go through but you don't see us making a point of excluding womyn from any of our events.

Sisters need to support sisters and the entire LGBT community needs to stick together.

All suffering is not equal in suffering.  That you never had to grow up as girl with those limits/restrictions, never had to negotiate the minefield of dating and marriage in that way, never had to fight twice as hard to have half the career, never had to balance off being a mother and a career, well, they have a different sort of suffering, that's all. Add to that, the number of TSs who show up, expect equal treatment, and then dismiss their complaints in favor of their own, and then tell them that they are 'whining' about their place?  Well who can blame them?

Read the post two above yours, and ask yourself "gee, would I want this person in my support group?"  Bet you don't, no matter what group you are part of supporting.

Quote from: tekla on August 04, 2009, 11:02:34 PM
All suffering is not equal in suffering.  That you never had to grow up as girl with those limits/restrictions, never had to negotiate the minefield of dating and marriage in that way, never had to fight twice as hard to have half the career, never had to balance off being a mother and a career, well, they have a different sort of suffering, that's all. Add to that, the number of TSs who show up, expect equal treatment, and then dismiss their complaints in favor of their own, and then tell them that they are 'whining' about their place?  Well who can blame them?

You're right, I didn't have to grow up a normal girl in a normal family.  I got to grow up as a girl who was beaten daily from age two until removed from the home at age 12, for being a girl and not a boy.  Then, because I looked and acted like a girl, but was sent to an all boys residential school, I was subjected to more beatings, and then forcible rapes.  The real fun, however, began at age 14, when I had my first period and nearly died from toxic shock syndrome because of the botched surgical procedure that mutilated me into a psuedo-boy.  That would kick off years of humiliating and painful medical complications, in an era when intersex persons were relegated to being circus freaks or the porn industry.

And, yes, my dating experiences were very different from the experiences of WBW.  I doubt many WBW advocates can claim they had a lover murdered for no other reason than she loved them.  I wonder how many are fearful of being beaten or shot just for looking at someone the wrong way. Of course, WBW can marry anyone they want in some states, I'm not allowed to get married in any state, so I guess they have one up on me in the marriage category.

My work experiences were also quite different as well.  While WBW struggle to have half a career at half the pay, and put up with sexual harassment, they can take legal action for such things, because the law says such practices and behaviors are illegal.  But, I'm intersex, so not one law protects me from those same problems, nor are their any laws that prevent employers from firing me for being intersex.

And, you're right, I'll never have to worry about balancing having a family and a career.  Thanks to the butchers who mutilated me when I was a week old, I can't have children.  Since I can't legally marry, that pretty much ends the patriarchal family model WBW frequently are partaking in.

Yeah, I guess my "suffering" is of a different sort, the sort I wouldn't wish on anyone else, even WBW Only advocates.

Quote from: tekla on August 04, 2009, 11:02:34 PM
All suffering is not equal in suffering.  That you never had to grow up as girl with those limits/restrictions, never had to negotiate the minefield of dating and marriage in that way, never had to fight twice as hard to have half the career, never had to balance off being a mother and a career, well, they have a different sort of suffering, that's all. Add to that, the number of TSs who show up, expect equal treatment, and then dismiss their complaints in favor of their own, and then tell them that they are 'whining' about their place?  Well who can blame them?

Read the post two above yours, and ask yourself "gee, would I want this person in my support group?"  Bet you don't, no matter what group you are part of supporting.

I know.  I get it but that's not my point.  Everyone has different life experiences, all you need is an acute sense of the obvious to see this.  So what's the reason for saying "you don't know what it's like..." and alienating those who can help you fight for things important to you?  I don't care if these womyn hate my guts, if they push their representatives to vote for an all inclusive ENDA, I'm all for it.

Gays and lesbians across the US are zeroing in on the same sex marriage issue.  It's a hot topic.  Many TGs are affected by this also.  Womyn are lesbian and I'm sure the vast majority would love to see same sex marriages passed throughout all the states and see the repeal of DOMA. 

We all know this is a matter of numbers.  The more voters you have out there supporting your issues the better the chance it will get the recognition it needs and laws will be passed to give you the rights you seek. 

The LGBT community is strongest when we all stand together, no matter what our personal feelings may be for the person next to you.  Piss someone off and who knows how much of a ripple that can cause and how many people will lose their desire to help you.  Scratch my back...

This Womyn Born Womyn movement exemplifies how harmful some people's actions can be to their own cause when they they don't focus on the big picture.  Every successful (powerful) politician knows you help those who will help you, whether you like them or not.

Julie