Susan's Place Transgender Resources

According to the International Olympic Committee, trans women can compete in female sports after they have had GRS and have been on HRT for at least two years.  They cite studies that claim there is no difference in strength between GGs and MTFs after that two year period.

Now what I'm about to say is not a scientific study, it's just based on personal observation.  And I know the example I'm giving is not necessarily an indication of strength but it does take strength to excel.

The area I'm talking about is the distance one can hit a golf ball.  Men hit longer than women because they are stronger.  So strength is a factor in achieving greater distance.  All things being equal (except strength), a stronger person should be able to hit a golf ball farther than someone of less strength.

Now that the rust is flaking off I'm finding I'm hitting the ball as far now as I was "when I was younger" (pre-hrt).  And I had about a 7-8 year layoff from golf.

First of all, when you age, especially past 50, the typical amateur hits the ball shorter.  When I was 50, I was in excellent shape, swimming 2500 meters 2-3 times a week at a competition level.  That ended when I started to transition and now I'm embarrassed by my conditioning.  Yet I can hit my irons the same distance and my woods about 85-95% as far.

When this really screams at me is when other women show up at the driving range or when we're paired up with them at the course.  Julie and I are putting our drives out there 250 while the other women are in the 150-170 range.  That's a huge difference!  Today at the driving range I was hitting the ball as far as the young guys, who looked like they had pretty good swings.

This defies everything I expected.  I figured my age would take a lot out of my distance and then I'd get the double whammy with HRT, which I've been on 2-3 years (T levels have been immeasurable throughout).  And it's not better technique.  I seem to hit more bad shots now (still some rust to shake off).  Julie is playing the best golf of her life but that IS in part because of technique.  She has a good coach  ;D  But overall we hit the ball a lot farther than any other women we've seen.  (And yes, we do often wonder if this outs us!)

Anyway, this has been baffling me and I just thought I'd put it out there in case anyone has seen anything similar in their life.

Julie

From a perspective of weight lifting, I lost a lot. Stress on the a and lot part. Now would I be able to get back where I was by going back into intense training again? I have not a clue. Probably as I know women who were up there.

I also compete in sports and the women I play with and against hold their own just fine, even with my "stronger" past.

YMMV

I started HRT very young and transitioned in my 20's but still found quite a loss in pure strength over the decades. On the other hand, losing strength has come with "improved technique" which I guess is nature's way to minimize the loss.

I am also involved in a women's sport but like many women's sports, one where size is a disadvantage (although I am not much bigger than the average woman but then "average" women don't excel at women's sports either!)

In terms of competition, there is an advantage to testosterone in building muscle and muscle recovery. Since a post-op TS has lower testosterone levels than a GG, she has the added disadvantage in that respect.

DAMNED INSUFFERABLE PICKLE JARS.  ::)

I am not sure what I could add to this post because I transitioned so early. I have never had the body of a boy starting on hormones in my mid teens.

I wonder if a person is taller would that give you more force going toward the ball. I do know some strong women in the rodeos that could knock a guy on his butt in a minnesota second. Geez they scare me sometimes. But in all honesty I think if you keep yourself in shape you should be able to sustain the same level of play as you once did due to propper technique and a determination to win a game.

Deb

Quote from: Syne on August 09, 2009, 01:04:23 AM
From a perspective of weight lifting, I lost a lot.

YMMV

Julie and I were discussing this last night and she said when it comes to lifting things she can't lift nearly what she could pre-hrt/GRS.  I agree but I think part of that is my lack of desire to do so.  When I was confronted with lifting something heavy I took an aggressive attitude and did it.  And when that happens today it seems I can still lift pretty much what I did earlier.  If you factor in age and conditioning I'm guessing the HRT/post-op status hasn't really hurt me all that much.

I'm going to start paying more attention to this, especially when I get back into shape.  That should be interesting.

Julie

I have noticed that I have lost strength in my upper arms.  But because of my old jobs, Furniture moving, delivering appliances, etc., I have learned some tricks and leverage methods.

But I still have problems with those dang pickle jars, myself.

Janet

One additional thing to keep in mind is that the general thorax length (waist to shoulder) of a genetic male is longer than the length of a genetic female.  I'm not sure, but that may allow just a bit more twist for your swing.

If that is true, that added length could be a factor in being able to put more foot pounds of force on the ball, so you are hitting it faster (read harder) than a GG.

This is from the very basic human physiology I've studied as part of my art background.  If there are any trained artists out there, would you care to comment?

I have noticed that I have lost a bit of arm strength over all.  I could never curl that much to begin with and now I seem to be able to curl only about two thirds of what I used to do comfortably.  My back/lifting strength does not seem to be as reduced.  I'm coming up on three years on high amounts of estradiol injections and I have noticed a change in overall physical strength.

Though part of it was an intensional reduction of physical activity because I did not want to appear too muscled (read manly) as I transitioned.  Now, either because of my feminization  or my advancing age, it seems I cannot build up as much strength as I once had, though my endurance at this reduced level seems unchanged.

An interesting question, Julie.  Maybe you should try bowling again too, to see if you can still knock 'em down like you once did.

-Sandy

I have lost significant strength and I could not accept it.  I should have.  I have a crushed disk as a result.

In terms of golf though, I think that you still have an advantage Julie.  I don't think that you will lose it either. Remember that golf is much more than a physical game.  It is mental as well.

Cindi

Quote from: Sandy on August 09, 2009, 01:26:59 PM
One additional thing to keep in mind is that the general thorax length (waist to shoulder) of a genetic male is longer than the length of a genetic female.  I'm not sure, but that may allow just a bit more twist for your swing.

If that is true, that added length could be a factor in being able to put more foot pounds of force on the ball, so you are hitting it faster (read harder) than a GG.

This is from the very basic human physiology I've studied as part of my art background.  If there are any trained artists out there, would you care to comment?

I know this from my art training as well, but I think it's also one of those things that varies greatly from person to person regardless of gender, like teeth size for instance. As you said though, it is generally true. I've only been on HRT half a year and already have noticed a definite decrease in arm and back strength. (And it's always better to get a big strong man to lift it for you, hehe)  :laugh:

Quote from: Autumn on August 09, 2009, 05:03:44 AM
DAMNED INSUFFERABLE PICKLE JARS.  ::)

ROTFLMAO

I don't golf, so I have nothing to contribute on that score, but I can definitely lift less than before and I too have difficulty with the stuck lid or window and have to ask for help.

Here's something that surprised me...early in transition, I could still make a good muscle, which pretty much made me throw up cos it looked so incongruous. Recently, just for the heck of it, I tried to make a muscle and there was no muscle to make. Not a ripple. But that's fine with me.

This was brought up with Michelle Dumaresq, a pro mountain biker (mtf).
They first argued her strength, but later the figures came out that at about 2 years there was little difference. They also pointed out her physique, but if you look at her mom, she is actually somewhat similar.

Opponents then went after how she was raised. As a boy she was encouraged to ride bikes and be rough and tumble so she had an advantage they claim. This may be somewhat true. You were raised to swing like a guy, and play like a guy, and expected to perform as one, whereas girls are often not.

The problem I see with this whole argument, is that it is mostly B.S.

Yes, you may have been trained under different circumstances, so what happens when a genetic girl is raised under those same conditions? Men who are prepped for a specific sport do better than those who don't, the same would apply to women. So who do you blame for a girl, or a guy for that matter, not having started training at a younger age.

If you decide at age 30 to train and enter a triathlon and lose, do you blame the person who trained their whole life for it and beats you? You had better training, whether guy or girl, plain and simple. You may have had an easier time obtaining that training, but there is nothing to stop a girl from training for a particular sport from a young age. There are many these days who are and now we are seeing more and more women who can compete with men on the playing field.

I know a few women who can ride a bicycle as well as the guys do. If a girl is raised to be pretty and petite and do nothing but look pretty, of course she will not be as good at sports as the girl who goes out and played football with the boys.

I have a couple of GG girlfriends that are just as rough and tumble as their brothers.  One even went to college on a softball scholarship, but she witch to hardball because she was just too good.  But what do expect for a girl with four older brothers?  And if you saw her you would think that this petite young thing was all about dresses and bows.

The other is about 5'5" and small, but she is one helluva auto mechanic.  And engines are she specialties.

Like Leslie Ann said the arguement is pure BS.

Janet

I knew a pro female golfer -- not top notch, but she went to college on a golf scholarship and toured for a while afterwards. I asked her what the main thing that gave men an advantage over women in golf. She said height.

From the point of view of mechanics, that makes sense. Being tall means longer arms, which means a lot more distance to swing the club, which means greater net acceleration. Also, you have to move your arms as a slower speed to get the same speed at the club, so it makes the technique a bit easier.

I can see the height factor coming into play but I'm only 5'7", not that much taller than the average female but taller than most women I've seen on the course or driving range.

The nurturing factor might be significant because so many girls are conditioned to focus on things other than sports, like finding a rich prince charming.

But, in my case, I have been on HRT for over 2 years and have aged 8-10 years from the time of comparison and have lost very little distance.  My dad lost a lot of distance when he hit his mid 50's and he was a single digit handicapper, until he got older.

As far as 'brute' strength, both before & after GRS I was moving furniture and didn't seem to be handicapped by anything other than the surgery recovery.  ???

I'm a bit perplexed.

Julie

Just face it Julie.  You are one tough, strong broad.  No least a woman, just stronger.  As to the furniture, you should see my ex.  That woman can throw a sofa across the room without breaking a sweat.  ;D

And if you are a better player than most of the men on the course, maybe they better get out there and practice more.

Could our Julie Marie be headed for the LPGA?  You go girl.

Janet

Maybe your newfound self confidence is making you a better player.
It happens.

Quote from: Autumn on August 09, 2009, 05:03:44 AM
DAMNED INSUFFERABLE PICKLE JARS.  ::)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffc07.deviantart.com%2Ffs42%2Ff%2F2009%2F118%2Fa%2F4%2FEmote___Pickle_Jar_by_Rabbidry.png&hash=11c1b19fe3d9e7169bfb0049b997c0b69e3e2d0d)  (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffc00.deviantart.com%2Ffs13%2Ff%2F2007%2F112%2Fd%2F3%2F_nods__by_koffeeben.gif&hash=ee2d67432c5e56f84c680145a164181ff2438ce1)


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

I lost a lot of strength.. although I didn't have much to begin with either!

Several years ago when I was about 16 or 17, I built the TV stand in our living room and lifted the huge 32 or 34 inch heavy (old type) tv on it!

last week I was at some house who hosted me so I can go to a meeting, there was an ftm there.
He brought a TV to the balcony to play with his playstation outside.

He lifted it easy!!! I tried, just to see what happens and I couldn't even get it a cm over the table.

One of my best friend had arm wrestling with me just to see how much I lost and I lost with two hands.

And my mother can lift things heavier than I can :X

One year on anti-androgens, 3 weeks on estrogens!

i'm still having problems with jars.  :(

Quote from: Nero on August 12, 2009, 06:54:05 AM
i'm still having problems with jars.  :(

Try pitching it against the wall. It will open the jar and you can strut and roll your shoulders and tilt your chin and say, "damn straight!"

I know that I've lost a lot, and muscle mass.

I've never been able to open jars. o_0

I lost significant strength, at least a 50% reduction in the weights I can lift.  However, it may have been self-inflicted to some degree because I stopped lifting weights during transition and let the muscle mass slip away.  As a consequence, I have fairly skinny arms that look quite feminine.

I still seem to be able to lift more weight than comparably sized women and this may be a psychological thing.  Some women buy into the weaker sex thing and don't believe they can lift heavy things.  Males are more conditioned to believe they can.

I lost a huge amount of strength, both in terms of single muscle power and also my overall strength in leveraging my body.

I've reached that two year point on hormones, myself. 

Oh wow, lol.  I reached that point *last year*.

And *just* realized it as I wrote that.  Hell, I'm going on three years...

In any case (sorry for the personal moment there), my strength levels in upper body are about a third of what they once were, and I've been trying to reclaim some of that back, since it interferes with some of the stuff I'm trying to do to earn money (like yard work on houses being staged for sale).

And yes, given I use pickles to soothe my yearning for salt...

DARN THOSE PICKLE JARS!

I think you gals may end up weaker than you were as guys, but still kick-ass girls. There's size, haight, and muscle memory on your side. To give an idea on that last thing, I took a windsurfing course a few years ago, and got down in one end of Shoreline Park's lake there where the wind blows noobs and I didn't want the embarassment of having to walk it out or have the guys come get me with the Boston Whaler, so I decided to use the "rescue" drill we'd learned, put the sail down on my legs and just paddle the board. Now, windsurfers for beginners are big ol' honkin' heavy-ass boards, and I'd not surfed since I was 17 - I was 44 or 45 years old at the time. And surfboard-paddling is a very awkward method of locomotion. But I'd done it like crazy from ages 5-17 and apparently years I'm sad of say of sedentary life and non-paddling seemed to make no difference. I motored out of there like I was being towed, to the astonishment of fellow students I passed, and could have paddled for hours. Good old muscle memory.

So I'd not want to get into a fight or even a shoving match with any of y'all lol.

I really think a lot of our "superiority" in sports and "lifting heavy things" when compared to women with similar size and talent has to do with the conditioning of growing up male.  While I was being pushed to play sports, show my strength and do "guy" things, my sisters could be inactive and never hear a word of criticism from my dad.  I saw that in a lot of other families too.

Along the way I realized I can do a lot of things I probably would have never done had I not been pushed into it.

I know I can hit a 3 metal 320 yards because I've done it.  And all I got from my playing partners was "nice drive".  So when I get up and hit a drive 250 today, I'm not all that impressed with myself.  But your average 58 year old woman amateur would be ecstatic.  It's all relative.

I also think body type plays a lot of importance in strength and what you keep after transitioning.  I'm mostly mesomorph and I've lost very little strength.  I know girls who are more endomorph or ectomorph and they not only lost strength but size too.  I don't think I've lost any size at all.  My triceps look twice the size of Julie's, who is primarily ectomorph.

That's my unofficial, unscientific opinion based on my myopic view of the world.   :-*

Julie

There *is* a solidness of muscle even in men who don't work out, that's different from women. I guess strength does go down quite a bit.

The more I think about this, the more I'm convinced it's attitude.  Julie and I just got back from playing a round today.  I don't know why but I felt confident I could hit the ball like I used to 10-15 years ago, long before the first drop of E ever entered my system.

What happened was I hit the ball better, but not consistently.  I can forgive the inconsistency because I'm still recovering from surgery and I'm still very rusty.  But when I hit the ball like I used to, I actually hit it longer, except off the tee.  From the fairway I was one club shorter than I previously have been.  A 138 yd par 3 would have had me taking out a 7 iron.  Instead I hit an 8 just below the hole.  My 8 iron from 15 years ago would have been good at around 130 yards.  And yes, I still have the same irons I had then.

This defies the whole "as you get older" and "once you go on E" theory.  I've done both and, from what I'm seeing, I'm going the other way!  ???

Oh hell, why should I be surprised?  I've never fit into any 'norm' in my life.   :D

But why this means so much to me is it's like a fountain of youth.  The surgeries, the job loss, and the other losses, have left me feeling pretty devastated.  Now I'm starting to do something I used to do as good or better than I did in the past, against all odds.  Instead of feeling like I'm getting old and dying, I feel like I'm getting a second chance at life.  Not bad...

Julie

Testosterone heavily influences stamina, strength and libido.
Natal women normally have about a tenth as much testosterone as men.
It is produced by the adrenal cortex.
There are cases of women having low testosterone and it manifests itself as low stamina, strength and libido.
Sometimes testosterone gel is prescribed.

I have very low stamina, strength and libido.
I don't know my actual testosterone level as my endocrinologist did not see fit to measure it in the battery of blood tests he performed.

Yes, my strength has decreased drastically.
No, I don't play golf.