Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Unless you have the bone structure, voice, facial features, etc of your identified gender you will be moving from one closet to another as you transition.  And you'll also need the cooperation of everyone who knows you from your birth gender days.

Of course the best situation is to be totally out and not be overburdened with discrimination and prejudiced people.  But that seems rare too.

So if you decide to go stealth you will be closet hopping.  That's my conclusion from personal experience and personal observation.

Julie

It depends on your life style and past. I have lived so many places and now where no one else lives from my earlier life. I'm  out to old friends but they are a thousand miles away. I do pass so does that make me stealth? I would not hold back if a good friend asked. No not in a closet just an individual that can live in the flow.

i don't agree.  if somebody transitioned when they were half a century old, there's no way in hell that they'll be stealth because many people will know their past & it'll be impossible to start a brand new life.

what on this one I must say something
I started my transition 3 years ago and move 11/2 hear ago and after the move I only tell the pep that ask afue frind know and falmly but that is all hear my name is kimberly now and pep meet me as a women no one no any more and I hope to kepe it that way

don't hide it just live my life

  Kimberly

Quote from: Natasha on August 10, 2009, 05:51:18 PM
i don't agree.  if somebody transitioned when they were half a century old, there's no way in hell that they'll be stealth because many people will know their past & it'll be impossible to start a brand new life.

Impossible?  No.  Tough?  Yes.  But some of us old farts don't have a choice.  Family and friends just up and go from our lives and starting a new one is the only option.

I'm still nowhere near to completing transition still, but the fact is that the majority of people who I have met up to this point in my life I might possibly talk to but maybe never see in the future sort of.  I hardly hang out with people from high school and my friends tend to always be ever changing with changing of schools and areas where I live. 

This year is college graduation, and after that is hopefully grad school, but that also means a new beginning where I'm going to have to make new friends yet again.  Nothing seems to be static for me right now, but that's also because I don't have a career and still have more interest in learning than leaning toward a career and settling down somewhere.

Then of course if I ever manage to get off my lazy but and start doing something about my transition then comes in all the other issues that you just provided. 

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 10, 2009, 04:10:04 PM
Of course the best situation is to be totally out and not be overburdened with discrimination and prejudiced people.  But that seems rare too.

I'm still early in transition, so I don't know how it'll go later.  I don't wear a red TS on my forehead, but I am out to everyone who knew me before, who knows someone who knew me before, who asks me, etc.  I am extremely lucky because so far I have suffered no noticeable discrimination or prejudice.  (I get a funny look now and then, but I used to get those when I presented male, too. ::))

Being older, I have a lot of connections to my past - a daughter, an ex-wife, siblings and other relatives, all of whom I'm still friendly with, I'm active in my church and still friendly with a couple of childhood friends and people in a church I went to years ago, and on and on.  Those connections are very important to me.  I don't see stealth as an option and, because of my rare situation, I don't see any reason for me to try for stealth.  (Your results may differ.)

I truly wish for all of you the undrstanding and acceptance that I have received.

- Kate

Personally I don't sive a ghit.   I am a woman regardless.  My past maybe change to protect the innocent.  I am not out and proud, but I am not hiding.   My past is my business and my partner's, no one else's .


And I am one of the old bats.Here.

Janet, if you're one of the old bats then I must be one of the ancient bats. ;D

Now, where did I put that walker?

- Kate

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 10, 2009, 04:10:04 PM
Unless you have the bone structure, voice, facial features, etc of your identified gender you will be moving from one closet to another as you transition.  And you'll also need the cooperation of everyone who knows you from your birth gender days.

Of course the best situation is to be totally out and not be overburdened with discrimination and prejudiced people.  But that seems rare too.

So if you decide to go stealth you will be closet hopping.  That's my conclusion from personal experience and personal observation.

Julie

Hi Julie,

Interesting post, and I'd agree with it.  There is a cost to stealth, and I truly wonder if it would be worth the benefit, at least for those of us 'later in life transitioners'.  By the good graces of fate and location, I have found myself in your optimal category of "the best situation is to be totally out and not be overburdened with discrimination and prejudiced people." , and I totally agree.  I'm totally out to those that know me, work with me, are friends with me.   I'm not treated any differently then I was before transition, except as a woman.  It was really surprising.  People that have recently met me, I don't exactly broadcast that I'm a trans woman, but if they ask, I'm not afraid to tell.  However, I do have many moments of stealth everyday.   When I go shopping, or out and about, I am stealth to anonymous people that I don't know, and that is the way I wish to be.  I don't want to have to carry a story with me everywhere I go, being trans woman ambassador to every single person I meet, so stealth serves me well in those settings.  However, I also wear my trans 'side' with honor.  I am not ashamed of the journey that I took to get here, the barriers (mostly within myself) that I had to overcome to achieve this happy state of self-realization.   When I date, I come out with this if not before meeting, within the first date.  Sure it turns some off, but those are people I would want to turn off anyway. 

I've heard this from a friend, and it struck me as true, and stirred much thought in me.  It parallels your 'closet hopping' idea.   The idea that no matter how far or deep you get into stealth, no matter how good you look, how much you "pass", how very few people know about your past life... you will always be trans.  That stigma will always be with you.. in you, and your mind.   You are socialized as your opposed gender from birth to the moment you present to the world as your acknowledged gender.   I know for me, that this will always be true, that I am trans, and aware of this, and I must embrace it, (or go insane, lol)!  And to me, there's just a comfort level of knowing that I can be totally honest to people, and not have this chip, or skeleton hanging behind me.   

Oh, well, thought provoking thread, thank you!  As I get past SRS in the early part of next year, I wonder how or if my thoughts will change on the idea of stealth.   I think it's easier to acknowledge trans status and being out, when looking in the mirror, and not seeing 100% congruence with gender identity.  I am almost complete in manifesting that feminine form that I see myself as, and I wonder when that merges, with my actual physicality, if I won't have a stronger urge to be stealth.  Hmmm...  *smiles*.

*Huggs*,
Melan

While it may be true that we are Trans the rest of our lives, because of our past, it does not mean that we have to live as thought we are trans.

Being one of the late transitioners, I am and always will be a woman.  Yes I may get sir'ed now and then, but for the world I am that same said woman.  I personally think stealth is overrated anyway.  Some one somewhere know about your trans past.  It is just a matter of how well you handle that information when it is brought up.

Early transitioners have a better chance of the past not catching up with them.  But it can and being ready for it makes all of the difference in the world.  Post op makes things better, because you may know that you were once one of them, but you see yourself in a whole new different light.
And that is a really big boost.


Janet

Quote from: Nichole on August 11, 2009, 09:24:22 AMSomewhere, some of us, have, perhaps, found a pathway between.

I think that is where I fall these days.

When I "transitioned" in 1974, integration and stealth were the expected path (except for an unfortunate few who were outed by the media). I didn't even tell my first husband, though I did tell the second. Only he and my doctor knew I wasn't "standard issue".

Some 10 years later, being completely integrated into the community and accepted without question, a rumor of my past went through the community, a rumor I totally ignored. I lost a few casual friends but most people simply dismissed the rumor as implausible and it died out.

Now, some 30+ years down the road and knowing more about my childhood and pubescent medical oddities, more people know that my parents tried to raise me as a boy but it never "stuck". I am not uncomfortable with this position. I mean, really, there is so much confusion I don't even know what I was, only that I wasn't a boy LOL!

I do know of those who stay in their surroundings because of baggage. Most (though not all) are rather miserable because of the struggles that brings. I don't see how it is possible to be even remotely stealth without a change of location. Of course if you really don't care that is different. I just don't think I will ever feel that way.

Kristi

I think I understand what you are saying, Nichole, but I also think a number of us have stated that we are finding a middle ground – not leading the parade but not fully stealth.  We are just living our lives as best we can.

I am pre-op and have only lived fulltime for less than four months, so my experience is very limited.  But I've traveled to a number of different places during that time.  I am who I am.  If someone recognizes me as being trans, it doesn't seem to make any difference to them or to me.  At two months as Katherine I was "clocked" at least twice a day when staying in a large US city but had no problems.  At three months as Katherine, spending a week in a different large American city I couldn't tell if I was ever recognized as trans.  It wasn't that I was "passing" so wonderfully – it was because no one cared.

The times are changing.  I think with that change, the external and internalized stigma of being trans will disappear.  (It already is disappearing.)  Because of my age, I will be very surprised to live another 25 years.  But I will also be surprised if during that time the condition we call transsexual doesn't become something like having crooked teeth – that in the developed world everyone would just expect you to have it corrected and no big deal.

I think the middle ground – the non-event of being trans – is fast approaching.  Halleluiah! :eusa_clap: :icon_dance: 

- Kate

Transitioning drastically cut back the family who were not accepting. Transitioning on the job then transfering to a different state has really eased who people know me as to begin with. Applying for jobs is a pain in the neck because some of the degree's and professions would be such a plus but even with trans-friendly companies I find it personally difficult to put that "Also Known As" or "Legal Name Changes" information.

Hugs~

Quote from: Janet Lynn on August 11, 2009, 12:07:42 PM
While it may be true that we are Trans the rest of our lives, because of our past, it does not mean that we have to live as thought we are trans.

yup yup. you got it janet lynn.  i'm a woman above everything else & my gender identification is female not 'trans'. but this community is so diverse that there might be some people who id as 'trans'.  good for them! ;)

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 10, 2009, 04:10:04 PM
Unless you have the bone structure, voice, facial features, etc of your identified gender you will be moving from one closet to another as you transition.  And you'll also need the cooperation of everyone who knows you from your birth gender days.

Of course the best situation is to be totally out and not be overburdened with discrimination and prejudiced people.  But that seems rare too.

So if you decide to go stealth you will be closet hopping.  That's my conclusion from personal experience and personal observation.

Julie

That's been my experience as well. Despite my screen name here, I finally began to feel that I had traded one burdensome secret for another and was STILL not able to just be myself. Now I'm out. That doesn't mean I wear a sign or am willing to discuss my business with just anybody. But if someone knows, then they know. It's none of my business what other people think of me anyway, unless they're trying to kill me.

I still can't really fully "just be myself" and I will never be able to do that, because no matter if I disclose or don't, being trans affects my closest relationships. I hate that, but that's reality, and I live as authentically as nature and modern medicine will allow.

Further into my transition at work (retail family clothing), I was stuck running a register all day. So I decided to hash mark on a post it pad to determine negative feed back. Out of 117 customers paying for purchases, it was less than 3%. I did get called a thing by some redneck bitch one day while I did nothing but smile and help her. I figured it was probably one of the customers that saw me before transition as my height hadn't really changed. I figure that passability is when a woman has her daughter "Give the nice lady the money."

Retail has exposed me to all shapes and sizes for women and that helped my ego that I fall within the "average" range for everything-voice, shape, size, etc.
I get put off about why anyone would call a woman anything but a woman. I have seen some really furry arms, really furry faces, really deep voices and some really thick muscular body shapes. Nobody walks up and gives them a "Sir" Card for Life?

Hugs~

I also work retail as a cashier.  The only real negative comments or reactions I get is that people ignore me and just refuse to acknowledge me in any way.  A good, bad comment I have gotten was to be called a "Bitch".  ::)

There has been customer complaints against me, so I am told,  But I never have been told what those were, so they don't count.

And many customers call me by name as any friend would.  And a couple worry if I am not at work.  They always ask me why, because they missed me.  And they remember that reason, and ask after it if it was a problem.  I know I will be quized by them went I return, because of my back.

Janet

Quote from: Janet Lynn on August 11, 2009, 11:52:26 PM
I also work retail as a cashier.  The only real negative comments or reactions I get is that people ignore me and just refuse to acknowledge me in any way.  A good, bad comment I have gotten was to be called a "Bitch".  ::)

There has been customer complaints against me, so I am told,  But I never have been told what those were, so they don't count.

And many customers call me by name as any friend would.  And a couple worry if I am not at work.  They always ask me why, because they missed me.  And they remember that reason, and ask after it if it was a problem.  I know I will be quized by them went I return, because of my back.

Janet

Of course your customers miss you when you're not there. A sweet woman like you, Janet. Pfffft, duh.  :)

The way I see it, if there's a part of who you are that you are hiding, then you've at least got a foot in the closet.

As in, it's not about what you got, it's about what you conceal.

Quote from: Matilda on August 10, 2009, 07:34:29 PM
Based on the quote above, Julie, I'd say that you're absolutely spot on.  However, I must warn you that I am being very biased ;).  I started transition and HRT in my late teens; I never developed completely as a "boy".  I'm only 5' 6 1/2", weigh 125 lbs, and don't have a typical "male" body structure.  My voice is passable, and I haven't had any problems assimilating as my true gender in any way, shape or form.  I have been lucky, I know.  I'm sure that some people won't hesitate one bit to call me "privileged".  ::)

Also, I have never been married, don't have any children, and didn't have any kind of "baggage" when I transitioned.  I was just a kid out of high school that had nothing.  There's no "previous" employment history, no "old" college records, no "former" friends, or anything that links me to my past.  Everything I am today I have accomplished as female/Matilda.  How can I be so sure that there isn't anything from my past floating around? Because a few years ago, I hired a private investigator and asked him to investigate me, and he couldn't find anything at all.  It was an expensive investment, but it needed to be done (just to be on the safe side).  So yes I agree, "stealth" is not possible for everyone, but there are a few of us who are.



(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi572.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss161%2Fmatilda23%2F061.gif&hash=8f2301193b0dc73bb2e3c64f938f2048ea1a0591)

Ah... but did this private investigator have access or did they gain access to your medical records?  Those things can't be changed.  In the US and Canada their respective governments keep track of the folks associated with Social Security Numbers.  In Ontario Canada the Ministry of Transport maintains a file on you that also lists changes in names and gender.

I would respectfully suggest that the investigator didn't do a very thorough investigation.  But that's just my opinion.

-={LR}=-

Working in retail Janet... Oh so then you "know"...
Know that people are asses to EVERYONE and to never take it as a transgendered issue or as a personal insult.

People suck.

Hugs~

Quote from: Nichole on August 11, 2009, 09:24:22 AM
One hopes that when one reaches her late forties, early fifties, that that good bone-structure from her youth will not have become layered with concretations that change how she looked in her twenties and thirties to something that fairly screams "ex-male." I know some women pretty well who had that experience and found it devastating for them as they had imagined never having to speak about their pasts and found that they were being sirred. Others, not so much. And in the event there's Jeff Spiegel, Doug Osterhout (for another year or two) and Mark Zukowski.

Oh and Nichole, I was so disheartened yesterday after reading your post that I took the liberty to call my therapist who, by the way, has a combined specialty in psychiatry and endocrinology plus 25 years of experience treating people born transsexual.  (90% of her patients are MTF).  I figured, if there's anything to know, she's the right person to ask, so I did.  She said that in her 25 years of practice, she has come across a few patients who actually complained about "not passing" after having done so for many years.  However, there were other major factors that influenced their change in physical appearance:

- Age (as you said).  These patients were over the age of forty and had started HRT in their late 20's.

- They were pre-operative (pre-SRS/pre-orchiectomy)

- Their HRT doses had been reduced due to age and other health concerns. (i.e. Thrombophlebitis)

or

- They had been switched from the pill to the skin patch.

Of course, none of you is under any obligation to believe what I have just said, but you can always ask your endocrinologist or medical doctor to verify this information.  Thanks Nichole for bringing this to my attention.  I'm sure that it has not only been a real eye opener for myself but also for the many young people who frequent this board.

Well as one old broad,  I'm just me.  Not steath as most folks figure out that I may not have always been Blond.  Ok I'm a big boned chic who on a good day might pass well, anywhere else that is but the bay.  But I've not had any nasty problems just being me.  The people where I live (well most anyway) know I'm trans, but they treat me as a woman.

So I'm not in the closet and not out and proud,  I'm just living the best way I can.

Beni

I walk a line .....

In my own personal life, I live in stealth.  But I will carry the baggage of testosterone for the rest of my life. My voice isn't all that great when I'm not concentrating on it.  I'm tall and I have broad shoulders.  Frankly, I can't imagine how I get by at all.  But for some reason I do.... perhaps it is in my on stage presence, which is totally natural FWIW.

My family life is shot to hell.  My children want nothing to do with me.  I still maintain a relationship with my parents, brother, and sis.  My sister is the only one that thinks of me as "female" in that small group. I haven't spoken with any of my extended family for over two decades.

Cindi

I'm currently in the process of moving from TN to Australia (I am in Sydney right now, making preparations for my eventual move) and no one here other than my SO knows me as anyone else nor will they ever. Here in Oz, I'm just another woman in the crowd. Lots of tall girls here. ;) When I get my permanent residence visa, it will be as a female.

I lost touch with just about everyone from my old life years ago and I doubt if any of them would even recognize me now anyway. My family has been pretty accepting so far but I refuse to be in any closet regardless, so if someone knows or suspects I really could care less- it hasn't impacted my life in the least. I have not been called "sir" in a long time, even when not wearing makeup and dressed in old jeans and t-shirt.

I'm very far from "having it all" for a fact, but I'm self employed and make a decent living, own my own property, have friends and family who accept me as I am, and surprisingly "stealth" just hasn't been an issue so far. I'm probably about as stealth now as I'm going to get in any case I reckon, and it's enough for me.

Fairygirl, that is an excellent attitude. I always wanted to see and maybe live in Australia. I wish you the best.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 10, 2009, 04:10:04 PMOf course the best situation is to be totally out and not be overburdened with discrimination and prejudiced people.  But that seems rare too.

and if out of necessity I dress but not exactly look the part of "the dad" my kids always call me . . .


lol 'cause my kids and I certainly don't!

Being 'out' means not trying to 'kid' anybody, least of all yourself! Am i a 'male' who thinks he's a girl? NO! Rather a parent, a alleged 'girl role model' who otherwise knows she is not stupid and was born and socialized male! It is more about 'being' than 'becoming' somebody or something else your not, i've spent the majority of my life thinking i'm a 'fraud' and i'm positively not gonna do that anymore!

I think this is where there is a big difference with regards to ones age and past experiences.  Folks who transition younger tend to have very different experiences then those who transition older. Those who are younger often obtain a degree of stealth without really trying, more or less it just happens.  I have noticed this with my own personal life.  My boyfriend knows who I am, but we live together, but he has only known me as a woman.  The truth is I was not seeking stealth, stealth just happens to be an evolving part of my life.   I have a pretty good voice and my frame tends to be rather feminine (though not perfect).  I have a boyfriend, and a job where nobody knows about my past.

I am not clawing at stealth, like many younger transitioners, it just sort of happened. 

I am not going to comment on older trans women, but I have noticed I have a hard time relating because my experiences seem radically different.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 12, 2009, 11:54:13 PMBut I will carry the baggage of testosterone for the rest of my life. My voice isn't all that great when I'm not concentrating on it.  I'm tall and I have broad shoulders.  Frankly, I can't imagine how I get by at all.  But for some reason I do.... perhaps it is in my on stage presence, which is totally natural FWIW.

Kinda of sounds like me, except the tall part.  But Julie and I have concluded if you're with mainstreamers (straight), their radar isn't tuned to go there.  They just accept what they see. 

Sometimes I'm blown away when I interact with people and they treat me as they would any other woman.  I'm asking myself, "Is he blind?" but then I figure his mind just won't go there.  And even though I pass, I hate it because I'm putting on a show.  It's an act.  The real me is a hybrid, conditioned to be male, physically male (except what I changed thru HRT & surgery) and a female brain (persona).  And even though that description sounds weird, I like who I am.

There are two couples in the neighborhood we've been out with and have been over to their places.  They are both straight and could be considered mainstream, except neither couple has a single problem socializing with us and calling us their friends.  When I'm with them the only thing I stay conscious of is my voice.  A Barry White voice coming from my mouth is a bit distracting, to say the least!  Other than that, I'm totally me, just like I am with my trans friends.  When I'm out in public I turn it up a notch or two because history tells me if I don't the funny looks start up.

But if I didn't have to contend with discrimination, or worse, I'd just as soon as always be the person Julie (my fiance) knows and loves.

Hang on, I'm trying to pull my foot of the closet but it seems to be stuck!  :laugh:

Julie

Quote from: Nichole on August 13, 2009, 08:35:38 AM
:) Yes, and I think you'll find as well that when and if you have children that they'll have that same problem with you. :) Generational differences are ... well, generational, normally. Mommy never got used to the idea that jeans were popular and worn pretty much universally. :)

Thats the thing, I am never going to have children. Adoption is not something I am into. 
And while some things I can chalk up as being generational...some things are not really.

Quote from: sweetstars on August 13, 2009, 08:44:20 AMThats the thing, I am never going to have children. Adoption is not something I am into. 

Aye! Viva le difference! You'll find decisions and choices are never ending and a direct function of experience & age! You'll probably never know the joy & heartbreak that comes from being a parent but that's ok because many are just not cut out for that sort of thing anyway! Hopefully you won't ever find yourself in the position of having regrets over too quickly cutting your ever dwindling (bad word choice sorry!) xchanging life choices up short (as that is life and I 'ave none!) . . .

'cause when I was just beyond being a relative child myself gotta admit I didn't really think about ever having any kids either (and wouldn't trade them now for a transition or anything ever!)

In the meantime I simply LOOK FORWARD to the day when I can be completely out in the sense of perhaps dressing like and seeing who I want but there's no hurry really 'cause i am who i am already (and the people who are important and close to me already know it)!

I need to get back to this thread when I have more time.

Quote from: Nichole on August 13, 2009, 08:55:47 AM
I believe in this thread, Northern Jane mentioned that when she transitioned in 1974 that the only way one could get approval for transition was by being thought both able and willing to be what you refer to as stealth. Times change and attitudes change. 

Yes.  It isn't so much a generational change as it is a change in the society we live in.  Back in the 70s and 80s (and earlier) you had to go stealth or become a performer or a prostitute specializing in really kinky people because society just wouldn't accept that you could be both a transsexual and a decent human being.

But times have changed and continue to change.  In many places stealth is no longer necessary.  Now it seems many people can know you are trans and still accept you as a valid human being - a little odd perhaps, but very much like them in most ways.

The people who transitioned in an earlier era, who are so completely devastated when they are "found out" are that way because they had to go stealth to survive, and they still have that mindset.  As society becomes ever more accepting of us, and as we understand and expect that acceptance, we become protected from that utter devastation.

"Oh, you used to live as a man?  Was that when you lived in Germany?  What was it like to live in Germany? ..." ::)

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on August 13, 2009, 07:36:24 PMBut times have changed and continue to change.  In many places stealth is no longer necessary.

I wish I knew a time and place like that! I get tired of dating, becoming 'emotionally invested' in someone and being dumped when I mention my childhood.

Maybe I need to drop all aspects of stealth, but then where does one meet nice guys? Gay guys aren't interested in women and straight guys aren't interested in a woman who wasn't born pure unadulterated bimbo! (Sorry!)

Quote from: Northern Jane on August 13, 2009, 09:03:30 PM
I wish I knew a time and place like that! I get tired of dating, becoming 'emotionally invested' in someone and being dumped when I mention my childhood.

Maybe I need to drop all aspects of stealth, but then where does one meet nice guys? Gay guys aren't interested in women and straight guys aren't interested in a woman who wasn't born pure unadulterated bimbo! (Sorry!)

Amen to that. It's the same with women, I've found. The straight ones don't want a woman, and the lesbians don't want a woman who wasn't born...well, you see where I'm going. Thank Goddess for bi women or I would have to become a nun!

This may look like my first post but I spent a lot of time here in 2004-5 during my transition.  During my transition, I had no real intention of going stealth, largely because I didn't think it was possible.  Then I went to Mark Zukowski and got a new face.  I am 5'6", 140 pounds, and slight so I pass well.  I developed a great voice.  To strangers, I pass 100% of the time, even on the phone.  Suddenly, stealth seemed possible and so I was stealth whenever possible. 

But as a late transitioner, I had friends, a business, too many contacts, and many other things that would occasionally pop up during the day.  I developed a second career as a musician and there, I was stealth because I had quit playing years before so I had zero history in the local music scene.  In effect, I developed a double life, unavoidably out during the day, stealth by night.  I began to live in fear that something would happen to blow my cover.  Eventually some of my clients saw me out at night and word got around.  As it happened, nothing was said, nothing happened.  People evidently knew but it became an unspoken subject, at least around me.  I was always addressed correctly as miss or ma'am.  I should be quite happy.

As it turns out, I'm not.  I don't know who knows and who doesn't.  I have recently realized that by trying to construct this second stealth world, I had simply exchanged one prison for another (closet is really too tame a label).  To wrap yourself in untruths and half-truths, you end up in a prison of your own making.  To be stealth is to have no history unless you lie or embellish.  I wish I was proud of what I am but I am not.  I am a woman so to acknowledge that I was once male is cut I can scarcely stand.  I hate that I was ever male.  I guess I now see my attempts to be fully stealth partly a refusal to deal with who and what I am. 

The problem is mostly in my head.  I have had a very successful transition in that I kept my spouse, kids, family, job.  Yes, the transition was hell, but I survived.  I should be happier than I am.  If other people can accept me, why can't I?

Years ago one of my good friends was a gay man.  He said at one point he just decided that he could live his life as if no one knew he was gay, or he could live it as if everyone knew he was gay.  He decided to go with the second choice.  He was a very open, funny, happy person who sometimes would get crap from some idiot.

I've always remembered what he said.  It took me another 10-15 years to come out of my own closet, but when I was finally strong enough I wanted to be open with everyone - for me.  Now I just assume everyone knows I'm trans (or CD or whatever :P) and am delighted with how people treat me.

As for romantic relationships... ???  I'm too early in my transition and was too badly burned by my last one to worry about any of that yet.  But a cute guy kinda chatted me up last time I was in Oregon... ::)

- Kate

The epiphany I've had of late is that the language we use to describe ourselves and our situations is either for or against us.  I've realised that you can't educate someone into accepting you and you can't be a woman by explaining how you used to have a penis, or how you used to be male, or how you're a male 2 female transsexual.  Society and individuals will regard you as male with an explanation such as that because everyone knows that a male can never turn into a female.  And no one can understand that we've always been female.  I've stopped trying to educate people because they'll never get it.  I've been a transsexual for too bloody long.  I'm tired of it.  Now that I've finally reached some balance in my life, GRS is out of the way, passing isn't a problem & residing in a different country is feasible, I only want to be known as a woman.

There's an article that speaks for itself:

http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/disclosure.html (http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/disclosure.html)

QuoteThe thing is, if you disclose, you tend to cease being a person who is fun to be with, of good character, having fascinating ideas or interests etc. You become just a "transsexual". Full stop. "Oh? So-and-so? She's a transsexual, did you know?". Not "she's really fun". Not "she does so-and-so". No, "She's a transsexual". She used to have a dick. I changed over to reduce the drama in my life and try to become a productive human being without a host of distractions about who and what I was etc etc and disclosing tends to defeat that aim.
When you disclose you are not actually saying that you are - for all practical means and purposes - a woman (who so happened to once have a male body and lived a male life). Instead you become a "transsexual".
Since transsexualism is rarely of any consequence to most people's lives, a "transsexual" is a caricature created by the media and urban myths. To some people "transsexuals" are she-males on porn sites. To others they are sexually predatory gender benders who hang around in the gay scene, tottering on their stilettos and sporting mini skirts while they look for trade. To others, they are crossdressers who lost the plot and probably have an issue with their mothers. And so on. Being a "transsexual"means havig one quality that totallyu swamps anything else you may be.
Usually, the only people who truly "get it" are those who have or have had a good TS friend and they will probably suspect you anyway, since they intuitively learn what combinations of androgynous aspects that are giveaways.
So when you tell someone that you've had a sex change, most people will immediately superimpose this caricature over the top of you. That is, the real you ceases to exist and they get the completely wrong idea of who and what you are, and all explanations tend to be seen with suspicion since it runs contrary to what they "know".

Quote from: Fer on August 14, 2009, 07:10:31 AM
The epiphany I've had of late is that the language we use to describe ourselves and our situations is either for or against us.  I've realised that you can't educate someone into accepting you and you can't be a woman by explaining how you used to have a penis, or how you used to be male, or how you're a male 2 female transsexual.  Society and individuals will regard you as male with an explanation such as that because everyone knows that a male can never turn into a female.  And no one can understand that we've always been female.  I've stopped trying to educate people because they'll never get it.  I've been a transsexual for too bloody long.  I'm tired of it.  Now that I've finally reached some balance in my life, GRS is out of the way, passing isn't a problem & residing in a different country is feasible, I only want to be known as a woman.

There's an article that speaks for itself:

http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/disclosure.html (http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/disclosure.html)

very good point, Fer.
I'm afraid if I decide to be 'out', I will be seen as less than a man because of the 'used to be a woman' stamp I'll have.

Quote from: DawnL on August 14, 2009, 01:31:42 AM
This may look like my first post but I spent a lot of time here in 2004-5 during my transition.  During my transition, I had no real intention of going stealth, largely because I didn't think it was possible.  Then I went to Mark Zukowski and got a new face.  I am 5'6", 140 pounds, and slight so I pass well.  I developed a great voice.  To strangers, I pass 100% of the time, even on the phone.  Suddenly, stealth seemed possible and so I was stealth whenever possible. 

But as a late transitioner, I had friends, a business, too many contacts, and many other things that would occasionally pop up during the day.  I developed a second career as a musician and there, I was stealth because I had quit playing years before so I had zero history in the local music scene.  In effect, I developed a double life, unavoidably out during the day, stealth by night.  I began to live in fear that something would happen to blow my cover.  Eventually some of my clients saw me out at night and word got around.  As it happened, nothing was said, nothing happened.  People evidently knew but it became an unspoken subject, at least around me.  I was always addressed correctly as miss or ma'am.  I should be quite happy.

As it turns out, I'm not.  I don't know who knows and who doesn't.  I have recently realized that by trying to construct this second stealth world, I had simply exchanged one prison for another (closet is really too tame a label).  To wrap yourself in untruths and half-truths, you end up in a prison of your own making.  To be stealth is to have no history unless you lie or embellish.  I wish I was proud of what I am but I am not.  I am a woman so to acknowledge that I was once male is cut I can scarcely stand.  I hate that I was ever male.  I guess I now see my attempts to be fully stealth partly a refusal to deal with who and what I am. 

The problem is mostly in my head.  I have had a very successful transition in that I kept my spouse, kids, family, job.  Yes, the transition was hell, but I survived.  I should be happier than I am.  If other people can accept me, why can't I?

I think this is a critical difference, you still have ties to your past.  Many of the younger trans women out there those ties really don't exist anymore.  Between moving around, changing jobs, friends moving in and out of your life stealth basically kind of happens.  If you never do the whole marriage and kids thing (and probably in most cases never would) and have very little ties to the places you are living, stealth kind of just happens.  Thats what I mean when I say its more than a generational issue, its more of a life circumstance issue.  This is a big reason why its so hard for younger trans women like myself to relate to older ones (or even formerly married ones), for us marriage is an after transition goal, and unimaginable before transition. 

Quote from: Matilda on August 14, 2009, 09:22:38 AM
... the stench of envy...

Ah the stench of envy... very smelly and hard to mask... :)

I think the fear of discovery leads some to think that a stealthy life isn't possible and I think for the most part, those of us who are not out and proud strive, with varying degrees of success to be stealthy.  We get tripped up when it comes to relationships especially when the prospect of marriage emerges.

The words "Trust" and "Honesty" when tossed into the relationship pot present us with a bit of a conundrum.  Do we break cover and tell or do we remain stealth and hope we're not found out later on in life.  A very tricky thing as to my knowledge there are only two things guaranteed in life and that is death and taxes. :)

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Matilda on August 14, 2009, 09:22:38 AM
I don't understand why they have the need to come here and tell others to (or imply that others) do the same?  To me, that has the stench of envy written all over it. 

You're either reading too much in these posts or not reading carefully enough.  I think the general theme with most is that stealth is the most desired state but not always obtainable.  Those of us with a past have to deal with that past and that seems to be the subject here.  I wouldn't discourage anyone from going stealth but perhaps what everyone is saying is this: whatever path you choose, there are costs.  If you are out, you deal with the prejudice and so on.  If you are stealth, you can never be completely honest with anyone. 

In my case, I pass unequivocally.  If I moved to another state, someone would have to dig very hard to uncover my past.  I chose to stay, I have family and other things in my life that meant the cost of moving to achieve full stealth was simply not worth it.  Again, making these decisions involve costs and sacrifices either way.  Such is life. 

I believe that is all anyone is saying here.

There is an uncredited quote above about how once people do know you're trans, then to many of them that's all you are. I hate that.

I am definitely one of the older transitioners here.  I'm sorry if I sound like I'm trying to discourage stealth.  I'm just saying be careful and realize that chances are good that at some point you will be found out.  If stealth is what you want and need and feel you can do, fine.  I am just concerned that you not be hurt.

I was career military with a very high-level clearance.  I was also a closeted cross-dresser.  There was always the danger of being outed.  I accepted that and had plans to deal with it in an honorable way that would not compromise what few secrets I knew.

My point is that if you are in stealth, you need to realize that your cover could be broken at any time.  To protect yourself, you need some idea of how you will deal with it when it happens.

For me, I am just so happy to finally be out of the closet and open to those around me, I am not willing to go back into another closet.  I currently have many friends, all of whom know I used to present male.  We talk about all sorts of things.  Some of them may think of me as "that TS", but I really doubt it.  I'm not in a romantic relationship now, but, being older, that is not as important to me as it is to a 20-something.

That cranky old broad,  ;)
Kate

Quote from: Stealthgrrl on August 14, 2009, 10:40:51 AMThere is an uncredited quote above about how once people do know you're trans, then to many of them that's all you are. I hate that.

This passage?

"The thing is, if you disclose, you tend to cease being a person who is fun to be with, of good character, having fascinating ideas or interests etc. You become just a "transsexual". Full stop. "Oh? So-and-so? She's a transsexual, did you know?". Not "she's really fun". Not "she does so-and-so". No, "She's a transsexual". She used to have a dick. I changed over to reduce the drama in my life and try to become a productive human being without a host of distractions about who and what I was etc etc and disclosing tends to defeat that aim."

This passage is seriously flawed.  This MAY be true with people you are just meeting, or with casual acquantainces, but generally not with the people who know you well.  My overwhelming experience has been that people continue to see you as fun, smart, funny, talented, whatever (or obnoxious, rude, boring) and CAN see past your transness. 

Quote from: DawnL on August 14, 2009, 10:59:40 AM
This passage?

"The thing is, if you disclose, you tend to cease being a person who is fun to be with, of good character, having fascinating ideas or interests etc. You become just a "transsexual". Full stop. "Oh? So-and-so? She's a transsexual, did you know?". Not "she's really fun". Not "she does so-and-so". No, "She's a transsexual". She used to have a dick. I changed over to reduce the drama in my life and try to become a productive human being without a host of distractions about who and what I was etc etc and disclosing tends to defeat that aim."

This passage is seriously flawed.  This MAY be true with people you are just meeting, or with casual acquantainces, but generally not with the people who know you well.  My overwhelming experience has been that people continue to see you as fun, smart, funny, talented, whatever (or obnoxious, rude, boring) and CAN see past your transness.

You make a good point, Dawn. Thank you.

I don't think one realizes how segregated HR departments and background checks are now from the people who will manage you.  Alot of companies and agencies have done this as a way to avoid discrimination.

With that I am coming from the circumstance that there are those who strive for complete stealth and panic when it is blown, and those, like most younger transsexuals, don't necessarily seek out stealth, but it just sort of happens.  Honestly, its not lying or not being honest.  In the ladder, there are some people who are rather close who do know, in my case its my boyfriend and some close friends, and most other people do not know.  Like I said, its complicated for an older transitioner to even comprehend this, because literally, you don't realize its happening most of the time, you just come to a point where is sort of already happened.  There is no attempt at this, this is not like those women who try to live deep stealth.  Rather this is an instance where assimiliation just happens, and along with it stealth just happens.  It is not that I lie about my past either, its just alot of my pre-transition life, fits really well into my post transition life.  There is just a bunch of going to school, being in theater in HS, etc.   Everything I have pre-transition done fits together really well with being female, there is no lying with regards to personal history, especially in everyday conversation. 
I am not one of those "no one shall never no" types, when I talk about this assimiliation I am not talking about deep stealth.  I am talking about a degree of assimilation, and like I said, this is something older transitioners struggle with a great deal to even understand.  But for younger transitioners this is just something that tends to just happen, whether we desire it or not.  We get to a point where we are sick and tired of talking about transition, and transition just becomes something that was done and you move past rather than a defining aspect of a person.  Even then those around you don't see you for your trans status if they do know, but rather for who you are.  You quit worrying, you quit talking about transition, you just live life.   

This is the hard part and why there is such a divide in terms of understanding on this issue.  Alot of the experiences of young transitioners are so radically different that there is not much shared ground outside of the medical process itself.  Beyond the medical aspect the experience is very different, in fact its hard for older transitioners to get.

I agree Nikki. There's more similarities than differences. What real differences are there between late and early transitioners in terms of stealth other than the spouse/ex and children? I assume early transitioners have family who know as well.

Well one difference, and its not only huge, its hugely obvious, the older you are, the more history you carry with you.  The more you carry, the harder it is to lose.  If you transition at 20, you don't have much of a record beyond some school stuff, you can get out with a college degree in your new name, and few people go back past that.  Later, you've been married, you have kids, you have a credit history, a job history, people who know you and all that.  There are simply more people to blow your cover, more past events that don't line up quite right with the current narrative.

I've said many times, "It's one thing if they suspect but quite another if they know." When people know your past, sometimes that's all they can see.  When you transition before someone's eyes it's very difficult for them to erase the past they had with you.  Many times impossible.

Living in fear sucks.  It sucked when I was hiding I was a CDer.  It sucked when I was out to everyone but work and worried I'd be seen by someone from work.  And it sucks when you meet someone and worry they will treat you different because you may not have passed with them.  If you think you're going to get caught in a lie and there will be consequences, you are living in fear and that sucks.

Being open and honest is good for your conscious but all too often there's a price to pay.

Julie

How come it hurts so much when I bite my tongue :)

Quote from: tekla on August 14, 2009, 01:14:59 PM
Well one difference, and its not only huge, its hugely obvious, the older you are, the more history you carry with you.  The more you carry, the harder it is to lose.  If you transition at 20, you don't have much of a record beyond some school stuff, you can get out with a college degree in your new name, and few people go back past that.  Later, you've been married, you have kids, you have a credit history, a job history, people who know you and all that.  There are simply more people to blow your cover, more past events that don't line up quite right with the current narrative.

So very true.

-={LR}=-

seems like it would still be possible to start over. Lynn Conway did it, didn't she?

Quote from: Matilda on August 14, 2009, 02:01:42 PM
Oops! Does anybody else smell it?  Or is it just me?  See?


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi572.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss161%2Fmatilda23%2F061.gif&hash=8f2301193b0dc73bb2e3c64f938f2048ea1a0591)

See told you you couldn't mask it :)

-={LR}=-

Like I said, I don't think alot of people are getting what I am writing.  This is not deep stealth where you can be outed with an HR office or something like that.  The truth is most HR offices maintain confidentiality as its legally required in alot of states.  It seems like many are missing what I am writing.  This is just getting to a point where most people don't know in ones life.  Like I said, much of what you older folks are bringing up is some illusion of deep stealth, which is NOT what I am talking about, again it kind of shows the misinterpration that frequently happens, because one is removed from the circumstance I am talking about and are only seeing it through a certian conceptual angle rather than actually living it.  I think some are misinterprating what I am saying is deep stealth where one fears of being "discovered".  This is not what I am putting forth, rather that those instances where discovery comes up are so far and few between and easily dismissed, it becomes something you did rather than who you are.  The fact is with younger transitioners, even when there is information such as credit reports out there, it is more something you "did" and people look past it if they do find out, rather than with older transitioners...which seems to be more of "who you are".  The stealth aspect happens more incidentally, and NOT intentional deep stealth.  I wish I can explain it beyond that, but honestly the paperwork of the past and the potential for discovery is often so limited, you begin to move past the whole deep stealth concept.  Sorry if this doesn't make sense, but thus like I said...this is where the gap in understanding really lies. 

Well, also to the degree that you are marginal, its much easier to lose all that.  The more professional you are, the harder to hide, or, conversely, the more you need it.  That's the reason that though several university professors have transitioned, none of them have managed to do the stealth deal, because of their past history of degrees, writing, publications, presentations, citations, and awards are all necessary to keep with you.  Even if I were to get the PhD changed to the new name, there is no way I could go back and get the rest changed, and walking in someplace with a 15-20 year old PhD with no publishing, no presentations, no books is just going to get me shown the door.  I have a friend who's current ability to run a major mortgage company is predicated on her having been a BoA VP for years.  In any kind of elite situation you are among a very small group of people (hence elite) that are not going to change that have a history with you that are going to be very hard to change also. If all you were in your past life was a skid row bum, its easier to move on.  If you had any success and want to stay in that field, you don't.

Yep, for us older farts, our work history will be needed to secure a job commensurate with our skills and experience.  When my employer was showing me the door after I transitioned I sent out resumes to other electrical contractors.  Of the calls I got each interviewer said I had a VERY impressive resume and one went so far to say "I don't see women in the trades with a resume like this."

My resume was outing me.  I know of no woman who has done what I have and, apparently, neither did any of the contractors who called me.  And no, I didn't get a job with any of them in spite of my "impressive" resume.  After the phone call, I never even got invited to come in and interview.

So much for stealth.

Julie

Quote from: tekla on August 14, 2009, 02:45:16 PM
Well, also to the degree that you are marginal, its much easier to lose all that.  The more professional you are, the harder to hide, or, conversely, the more you need it.  That's the reason that though several university professors have transitioned, none of them have managed to do the stealth deal, because of their past history of degrees, writing, publications, presentations, citations, and awards are all necessary to keep with you.  Even if I were to get the PhD changed to the new name, there is no way I could go back and get the rest changed, and walking in someplace with a 15-20 year old PhD with no publishing, no presentations, no books is just going to get me shown the door.  I have a friend who's current ability to run a major mortgage company is predicated on her having been a BoA VP for years.  In any kind of elite situation you are among a very small group of people (hence elite) that are not going to change that have a history with you that are going to be very hard to change also. If all you were in your past life was a skid row bum, its easier to move on.  If you had any success and want to stay in that field, you don't.

yup yup but how about if somebody transitioned early & got their PhD or masters afterwards?

Then no problem, the degree would be in the new name, as well as the initial publications and presentations, and awards.

Quoteyup yup but how about if somebody transitioned early & got their PhD or masters afterwards?

The PhD route is a difficult on the are many out of work or working below their abilities. The number of people with tenure is dropping as they replace proffessors with adjuncts.

Most of the people I know got out right around when the universities and colleges started referring to students as consumers. The ones I know do the gypsy deal, teaching one or two classes in a two or three schools. Of the top graduates in my program during the 8 years I was there, none of us are still teaching.

Generally speaking, I have a professional job and a graduate degree.  Personally, I think it has to do with ones past profession as well.  I have noticed older transitioners have stuck to largely male dominated careers, this is less likely the case with younger transitioners.  My career history has been established under a female name, or or my refrences are folks who have known I have transitioned and are very respectful.  I am not worried about publications either.  The career I have is typically very liberal, and it tends to be female dominated.  Yes one can get to a level of having a higher professional career where it can be hard, but you don't have to start on skid row either, just have past employers who are cooperative.  I have known plenty of younger people with professional degrees and jobs who were younger move on pretty well.  Its not just based on one being in a professional career or icoming from skid row.  I have kept a rather low profile, AND have kept a professional career.  So I think its a bit of a misnomer one having a professional career makes it more likely to be discovered, I have found the opposite to be true from my own experiences.  I think being in a male-dominated career path tends to be much more damaging.

I should note, I am not in academia...for good reason.  The university system is changing in a very bad way.  I turned my back on a job as a professor for good reason.

Sweetstars, I think you and I are talking about the same thing, i.e., that gradually you get to the point where more people do not know about your past than do know.  I'm not sure I would call that stealth, though.

Deep stealth used to be almost a requirement for survival in the bad old days but now usually isn't necessary.  I am open and honest with my friends who knew me before transition, but I don't go around telling everyone.  If someone treats me as the woman I am, I just accept that and don't bother pointing out that I used to present male.

What I don't understand is why my understanding - as an older person and a late transitioner - is any different from what you are saying. ???  To me, "stealth" is actively hiding your background.  It can be done, especially if you are younger and have less background to hide.  But at some point it may come out, regardless. 

I think what we are both talking about, Sweetstars, is an almost "organic stealth" that grows out of just living your new life.  A younger transitioner is more likely to achieve that simply because they have more of their life to live as their new self.

N'cest pas?

- Kate

I want to be stealth.  As far as I see it, being trans is only a necessity in order to be what and who I want to be.  But I identify as male and will identify solely as male when I feel I am at the end of my transition, and as there is a pretty good likelihood that I will pass (and am thus very lucky), I find there to be no need to let others know about my past.  Maybe those who are closest to me.  But there is no shame in being trans.  I just don't consider it a big part of my identity.

Quote from: K8 on August 14, 2009, 07:28:03 PM
Sweetstars, I think you and I are talking about the same thing, i.e., that gradually you get to the point where more people do not know about your past than do know.  I'm not sure I would call that stealth, though.

I think thats woodworking.

One thing I normally say its that every transitioner has his/her own challenges. They are different for each one and can also be similar but it all depends on several things like:

• Age
• Location
• Family
• Studies
• Cultural situation

And of course, the level of acceptation and/or tolerance you receive.


Like others have say it, the younger you start transition the larger the possibility that you will have less "baggage" to bring to your transition. There are things for example like marriage and kids that when those things started to appear on my horizon I panicked and thats when I realized I just couldnt keep going like this anymore and then I transitioned.

Quote from: Zelane on August 16, 2009, 03:36:02 AM

• Age
• Location
• Family
• Studies
• Cultural situation

And of course, the level of acceptation and/or tolerance you receive.


Like others have say it, the younger you start transition the larger the possibility that you will have less "baggage" to bring to your transition. There are things for example like marriage and kids that when those things started to appear on my horizon I panicked and thats when I realized I just couldnt keep going like this anymore and then I transitioned.

It also depends on where you live.  Someone that lives in America doesn't have the same level of anonymity as someone that lives in a foreign country.

---

Post Merge: August 16, 2009, 04:34:36 PM

---

EDIT: you'd already said Location, Zelane.  Bad me.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 14, 2009, 02:57:31 PM
I know of no woman who has done what I have....

I had some work history when I 'transitioned' at 24 and one letter of reference from a sympathetic employer. I also had a college transcript - they were also sympathetic and my college records were non-gendered. I was the only woman in my field in the early years and built my career as a woman. One of the greatest fringe benefits was opening the doors for other women, thanks to being stealth. I experienced "the glass ceiling", wage disparity and other things all women face. I am proud of my career and the only "advantage" I had over other women was that I had learned to stand up for myself.

It just seems like we need to start thinking like entrepreneurs...

I was advised a while back to start looking at a portfolio of business opportunities (more than one)...

..to help in the later years of life...

I now see this as more essential than ever before..."stuff" this employment lark...

Chrissty