Community Conversation => Transitioning => Gender Correction Surgery => Topic started by: metal angel on August 13, 2009, 08:05:42 AM Return to Full Version

Title: inside bits M2F
Post by: metal angel on August 13, 2009, 08:05:42 AM
i'll start out by saying this is pure curiosity, i'm a biofemale, but i have a keen interest in anatomy.

What do they attach the new vagina to internally? there's heaps of discussion here of depth, but not much about structure. In a biofemale the womb is held to the pelvis by strong and extensive connective tissue, and the vigina is kinda held up by that, but even then prolapse is not that rare. But i can;'t really think of any structure in a male body thatyou could easily attach a new vagina to?

Or does it just heal to the bladder, prostate and rectum, being skin that has been pealed off the penis i imagine it might kinda do this?

Do they ever attempt to replicate the cervix? though i can't think what they'd make that out of.
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: Flan on August 13, 2009, 08:48:22 AM
Quote from: metal angel on August 13, 2009, 08:05:42 AM
Or does it just heal to the bladder, prostate and rectum, being skin that has been pealed off the penis i imagine it might kinda do this?
it's not "attached" to anything

Quote from: metal angel on August 13, 2009, 08:05:42 AM
Do they ever attempt to replicate the cervix? though i can't think what they'd make that out of.
old surgical techniques used the glans of the penis to fake a cervix, that obviously resulted in meh external genital results as well as limit sexual activity, it's not done anymore for reasons that should be obivous
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: metal angel on August 13, 2009, 09:07:22 AM
if it's not attched, how does it not prolapse?

yeah, if i had to choose between a cervix (without a womb) and a clit, i know which i'd pick...
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: Sandy on August 13, 2009, 09:16:38 AM
If you check out the various surgeons sites as well as the wiki here, you'll find a large amount of information about the vaginoplasty.

In short, the penis is disassembled (I love that term), and the skin from the base of the shaft to just below the glans is removed.  It is stitched into a tube and the tip of the tube is stitched shut.  The scrotum is removed and used to add additional length to the skin tube if needed.  If not it is discarded.

A cavity is created within the body just below the repositioned urethral opening and the prostate (which become a neo-G-spot) and above the anus in the same area where a genetic female vaginal opening is located.  The depth of the cavity is dependent on a number of factors, consisting of the distance to the intestinal wall the position of the rectum and bladder among other things.  This is where the surgery is incredibly difficult and delicate.  A single mistake could nick the intestinal wall, rectum or bladder and cause peritonitis.  An SRS surgeon is truly an artist, but much of their work is invisible.

The skin tube is inverted and inserted into the cavity created to become the neo-vagina.  The opening of the vagina is stitched to the cavity opening and is filled with a stent during the initial healing.  The inverted skin adheres to the cavity walls and forms a strong bond, usually.  Prolapsing, infection, and fistulas, are a very real possibility during the healing process.  Additionally, like any other cavity in the body, like pierced ears, if it is not regularly dilated it will heal shut.

A cervix is only used for birthing so it has no meaning in this context.  There was a period, I believe where part of the glans was used at the tip of the neo-vagina to add additional stimulation during intercourse, but there are no nerve pathways from the inverted glans to the brain so this really has no purpose either.

The saying goes that if the surgery is done well, only your gynecologist can tell, because they can see that there is no cervix when there is an examination.

-Sandy

Post Merge: August 13, 2009, 09:30:58 AM

Quote from: metal angel on August 13, 2009, 09:07:22 AM
if it's not attched, how does it not prolapse?

yeah, if i had to choose between a cervix (without a womb) and a clit, i know which i'd pick...
Just to complete the description, a neo-clitoris is formed by paring the glans down approximately 70-80%, stitching it within the body above the urethral opening and hooding it with skin from the neo-vulva.

A female clitoris is probably the most enervated part of the human body, even more than the male glans.  The neo-clitoris loses much of the sensation as a result of surgery, but through post surgical stimulation, a very satisfying orgasm can still be attained.  Additionally vaginal orgasms through g-spot manipulation is possible as well.  It is a matter of patience and practice.

-Sandy
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: metal angel on August 13, 2009, 09:47:15 AM
ah... so the healing to surrounding structures guess was right then.

i can't see why it would heal shut though, i imagine they put what would be the outside of the penis on the inside? so that would be propper skin and not heal to itself? Or does it just kind of shrink?

how true is the concept that only a gynacologist could tell? I think i'd notice a lack of cervix... but maybe i'm a strange lover...

Post Merge: August 13, 2009, 09:51:24 AM

thanks for your answer by the way, hope you don't mind curiosity, i came her for my male side... but i think my anatomist side is a lot stronger...

i imagine a G-spot orgasm would be really easy compared to a biofemale who only has a tiny vestigial prostate to stimulate...

hrmmm... that would mean neo-female ejaculation would be a lot more than biofemale ejaculation? Do they remove some of the extra glands like the seminal vessicles etc. to feminise the sexual response? no one seems to mentin what happens with all the plumbing.
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: Valerie Elizabeth on August 13, 2009, 10:04:34 AM
I don't think that they remove any extra vesicles.  From experience from taking hormones, there seems to be very little ejaculate during intercourse or masturbation (for me anyway).  For that reason, I don't think they need to remove anything.
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: Sandy on August 13, 2009, 10:21:55 AM
Over time the skin within the neo-vagina become very similar to internal vaginal tissue.  The process is called polymorphism.  It does not retain its resistance to pressure since it is now internal to the body.  It also has some natural moisture as it changes.  Not enough, usually, for proper lubrication during intercourse, but it can help.  It is much like post-menopausal tissue.

The cavity can collapse over time if not regularly dilated and the vaginal tissue will start to adhere to itself.  If dilation is not resumed, a surgical intervention may be required to re-open the vaginal canal.  It is very similar to vaginal stenosis.

Actually the prostate and g-spot are very similar structures.  During foetal development, the gender differentiation that occurs causes this tissue to become sponge like and surround the vaginal opening.  As the male foetus develops, this tissue remains nodule like and surrounds the urethra.  And, yes, a vaginal orgasm through g-spot manipulation in a post operative trans woman seems easier to attain.  At least it is for me.  My partner and I compared notes and she seems to have a more difficult time with stimulation in that area.

The majority of the interior male plumbing is untouched during the course of the SRS procedure.  The seminal vesicles remain and can produce an ejaculation during orgasm.  This may add to the lubrication during intercourse depending on the time and patience of the participants.

As far as appearance goes, my partner, physician, gynaecologist/urologist have all remarked how "natural" my exterior genitalia appears.  I would figure that my physician and gyny have seen their fair share of genitalia.  But then again, I doubt that they would ever cover their eyes, grimace and scream "That is one ugly P***Y!"  :D :D :D Another part of the SRS surgeons artistry.  As you may be aware, there is quite a bit of variation in female genitalia.  Even more so than in male genitalia in my opinion.  So to my mind, yes, only an internal exam can truly show that difference.  But even then, the cervix could be removed during the course of a radical hysterectomy, so even then there could be a confusion.

-Sandy(I played doctor a lot when I was a child)
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: metal angel on August 13, 2009, 10:35:25 AM
Yeah, i was going to mention it must rather closely resemble the "vault" formed by a hystorectomy.

I've often wonderred how honest doctors are about one's body parts... but i guess they're probably genuinely unphased most of the time, they probably see a lot.

hrmmm... does it need papsmears? i doubt anyone really knows this, even dorctors thought for a while that lesbians didn't need them. There's no cervix, but i've heard somewhere that the same virus that causes cervical cancer can infect the rectum in people who have unprotected anal sex. I imagine a neo-vagina would be at the same or similar risk. Normally males are only carriers of the HPV virus, but i imagine the changing tissue characteristics you mention would probably also increase the risk.

Actually the comparison to a menapausal woman is possibly a good one tha could win a few arguments here and there. If someone argues that neo-women (is that any better thantranswomen... someone objected to transwomen in another thread?)are not real women cos they can't give birth, i think "well is your grandmother a woman, or what?" is probably a good retort? I argued my dad into a corner about gay marriage a while ago, saying if marriage is for children then should we forbid all infertile people from marrying anyone?
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: Sandy on August 13, 2009, 10:57:20 AM
My doctor said pap smears are for detection of cervical cancer.  No cervex, no cervical cancer.  Besides the smear is taken from the cervix, where would they take the smear from?

I haven't heard about spreading HPV through tissue contact, but I am certainly no expert.  I'll have to ask my doctor about that next time I see him.

If we want to split hairs, I am a woman, I've always been a woman and I was born with a birth defect that I have had corrected.  It doesn't change my internal feeling about my gender any more than being diabetic changes the way I feel about myself.

I don't make too much of a big deal about terms.  I prefer woman, but trans-woman works.  Neo-woman wouldn't technically accurate because I'm not new (neo).  Physicians refer to the resected tissue as neo- to differentiate it from the genetic variety in descriptions.  I did the same here for similar reasons.

I take issue with people, particularly feminists, who say that I'm not a real woman since I cannot give birth.  My youngest daughter cannot give birth because of ovarian cists.  Don't anyone *dare* say she is not a woman!  I, and many women like myself, experience physical and mental abuse, terror, and assault becuase we were viewed as *queer* (in the bad sense) by our bio male, testosterone soaked "mates" and fathers.  How does that make me somehow ineligible to be female?  Especially since I knew I was a girl from about the age of 8?  Was there some magical transformation with the advent of menstruation that made "true" women out of girls?

Additionally, are men who have had their testicles removed no longer men?  (Many who have had an orchiectomy require some sort of councelling as a result.)

-Sandy
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: Valerie Elizabeth on August 13, 2009, 11:11:30 AM
Quote from: metal angel on August 13, 2009, 10:35:25 AM
I've often wonderred how honest doctors are about one's body parts... but i guess they're probably genuinely unphased most of the time, they probably see a lot.

I will tend to be brutally honest with people, only because I expect it back.  I hope I can get this from doctors.  I hate it when I ask, well what do you think and I get a very neutral response.  For example, "Do you think I broke my collarbone?" "Well, it's hard to say." When the collarbone is clearly broken and visible from the outside.  GAH!  If it looks bad, just tell me.

Quote from: metal angel on August 13, 2009, 10:35:25 AM
Actually the comparison to a menapausal woman is possibly a good one tha could win a few arguments here and there. If someone argues that neo-women (is that any better thantranswomen... someone objected to transwomen in another thread?)are not real women cos they can't give birth, i think "well is your grandmother a woman, or what?" is probably a good retort? I argued my dad into a corner about gay marriage a while ago, saying if marriage is for children then should we forbid all infertile people from marrying anyone?

I really agree with this.  I am very upset about these kind of statements.  Is a woman who had a hysterectomy in her 20's no longer a woman?  How about birth defects?   How about men who lose their testis from testicular cancer?   I mean, lets get real.  Society still considers those women to be women and men to be men (respectively).  Now, sure we have that pesky Y chromosome - but who gives a ->-bleeped-<-.  I mean, all it does (from what I understand) is determine whether or not the baby has testis (by the SRY protein) thus determining sex.


Post Merge: August 13, 2009, 11:12:00 AM

Sandy beat me to the punch! :-)
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: metal angel on August 13, 2009, 11:13:08 AM
As a general rule i tend to think that gender is so foggy that you should just call people as they identify themselves and skip trying to box anyone. I am trying to find a singular gender-neutral pro-noun to avoid any errors.. so far the best i have come up with is using "they" with singular verbs like "they is", since "it" objectifies...

I think if something happened to my reproductive capacity or female body i may prefer to be identified as neutral rather than female, but that's just me (and i'm probably unusual), i think i prefer to identified as neutral anyway... or at least not identified by my gender, hence why i wanderred over here in the first place...
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: Valerie Elizabeth on August 13, 2009, 11:19:33 AM
Quote from: metal angel on August 13, 2009, 11:13:08 AM
As a general rule i tend to think that gender is so foggy that you should just call people as they identify themselves and skip trying to box anyone.

There was an episode of the TV show "Bones" (which I love so dearly) this past season where a person who worked in the lab was part of a Japanese culture where they dressed, acted, and spoke so as to be unidentifiable (please don't be mad if I got this wrong, it's been a while since I saw the episode).  I will do some research and find out for sure, and get back to you.  Either way, I found this to be super fascinating.


Quote from: metal angel on August 13, 2009, 11:13:08 AM
I am trying to find a singular gender-neutral pro-noun to avoid any errors.. so far the best i have come up with is using "they" with singular verbs like "they is", since "it" objectifies...

I am pretty sure I looked that up once, that you can use "them", 'they", and combinations "they're".  There is probably more that I cant remember.
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: metal angel on August 13, 2009, 11:25:40 AM
however, all this talk about female bodies and the effort people put in to get them is making me rather appreciate my zero-maintence female body (well, food, daily showers, and when i'm feeling friendly toward it maybe just a little bit of sleep, pap smears... well a lot less than SRS anyway)

I can kind of see why some people want to be seen as male or female... ok i can't really relate to it... but i'll respect their wishes. I just want to be seen as me... whatever that is.

Mabe what i need is feminism, but i don't much like most feminists. they are the sort of people swho gave me the "best girl in science" award when i also got the "best student in science award", which i found immensely patronising...

don't know what i need... but i do seem to be getting some very informative views here, thanks for the great conversation guys (and gals) :D i'm getting off the track of this thread ... um... (see other threads)
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: Sandy on August 13, 2009, 11:34:49 AM
Quote from: Valerie Elizabeth on August 13, 2009, 11:19:33 AM
There was an episode of the TV show "Bones" (which I love so dearly) this past season where a person who worked in the lab was part of a Japanese culture where they dressed, acted, and spoke so as to be unidentifiable (please don't be mad if I got this wrong, it's been a while since I saw the episode).  I will do some research and find out for sure, and get back to you.  Either way, I found this to be super fascinating.

John Varley wrote a science fiction story similar in concept called "The Barbie Murders".  It's set in the "Ophiuchi Hotline" universe and set in one of the colonies in a lunar society where the members are surgically altered to all resemble Barbie dolls (literally!).  The murderer turned out to be one of the "barbies" who was angered by the individualization occurring in the group and wanted to force them back into conformity through terror and murder.  (Odd, that I should remember that story so vividly).

-Sandy
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: Deanna_Renee on August 13, 2009, 10:30:15 PM
Quote from: Valerie Elizabeth on August 13, 2009, 11:19:33 AM
There was an episode of the TV show "Bones" (which I love so dearly) this past season where a person who worked in the lab was part of a Japanese culture where they dressed, acted, and spoke so as to be unidentifiable (please don't be mad if I got this wrong, it's been a while since I saw the episode).  I will do some research and find out for sure, and get back to you.  Either way, I found this to be super fascinating.

I remember that episode. I really enjoyed it as well. As I recall she only went by her (what we would refer to as surname). Why am I using her? Don't know. The members of the team had been trying to figure out, trick, connive, etc the doctor into revealing his/her gender. One of the most intriguingly convincing androgynous portrayals I have seen, played very well by the actor (if it was an actor). I would be interested in finding out the person's story.

Off point, yes. Couldn't resist.  :o

Deanna
Title: Re: inside bits M2F
Post by: Autumn on August 28, 2009, 02:38:00 AM
Quote
I haven't heard about spreading HPV through tissue contact, but I am certainly no expert.  I'll have to ask my doctor about that next time I see him.

HPV infects mucous membranes such as the vagina, penis, anus, rectum, scrotum, and mouth/throat. It likes wet, warm, moist locations, so while it can cause cancer in any of them from when I went digging for information on it, the cervix and mouth are the most common locations. Herpes can infect those, along with the eyes, nipples, and lips, being a mucous membrane virus, but HPV transmission is primarily focused on genital and oral sex. It is warned that non-genital skin contact from the surrounding areas, such as thighs or buttocks can transmit the virus, along with the sharing of wet towels or clothing.

It's a benign virus unless it goes tumor on you. The oral cancer versions are apparently much, much, much easier to treat with a higher success and survival rate than non-hpv related cancers. If you visit a dentist's office, there should be dozens of newspaper clippings about it. At least there was the last time I went to the dentist.

HPV seems to basically be a fact of life for sexually active humans. It's completely invisible and has no symptoms in the carrier state, with the ability for your body to fight off active infections, and a vaccine without a 100% success rate (but since even most infected people have no symptoms...) and an unknown duration. Infections can be detected by oral rinse, blood work, and a positive smear - but they can only smear you if you have a lesion forming, and rinses/blood work are unavailable except in clinical trials from what I've gathered.

People believe that "HPV is the cervical cancer virus" but it's far more than that. I also think that if people were told medically, "Since statistics show that 9/10 women are exposed to it in their life, you've got it or are going to get it, and give it to somebody else" people would freak out.

This is just about the 4 'high risk' strains of HPV. There's over two hundred HPV strains, I forget how many of them cause the genital wart infection (can also be oral - sweet.) Gardassil protects against 2 strains of high risk and two strains of genital wart - the four most common versions of the virus that comprise most of the infections of both.

I don't understand *why* Gardassil isn't administered to men as well, considering oral cancer infects both genders and is increasingly common, and since men pass the virus on to women (and women pass it on to men)...

Technically speaking, if you've practiced anal sex, you should have an annual colonoscopy to check for lesions forming as well. It's good practice to do this later in life to check for general colorectal cancer.