Susan's Place Transgender Resources

                        i know that lots of MTF transsexuals consider themselves lesbian, many liking women all their lives, some even staying with their wives thru transition. i am lesbian but i haven't heard anyone else discribe their orientation developing in the way mine has. i would love to hear of others experiences or comments on mine to see if there are any similarities.

                        i started visiting and playing with girls at least back to kindergarten (5 years old).  i loved playing with them and talking with them and i felt a romantic? attachment to them (not sexual). many times i was considered their "boy" friend and all the adults thought it was cute because we were so young. from 5 to maybe 13 i made close friendships that lasted usually a year or so that were much like girlfriend friendships, we shared all our thoughts, had lots of fun doing many different things but they were different in that they included kissing sessions that we described as "just like in the movies". all of these friendships included a feeling of "puppy love" for me and my girlfriends. there was kissing and hugging but never any sexual component. by that i don't mean i felt sexual but did not do anything, it was that there was just this "love" without sexual feelings.all of this time was well before "male" puberty for me. basicly i liked girls for companions, friends and a "love" interest. i knew i was different from boys because they were either not interested in girls or were too shy to talk with them so most ignored them or teased them in some way. as i approached puberty i began to be shy toward girls and seemed to fear being close to them as i had all those years. i had dressed in my mothers clothes since before i was 5 and i assumed i was the only boy doing that and knew i was different. at about 15 i read something about Christine Jorgensen and her "sex change" and i instantly knew that i was like her. by 17 or so i started to date girls, playing a mostly male type role to ask for a date, but once with someone i liked i acted mostly how i felt inside and had lots of girlfriends again. there began to be a sexual component that involved their bodies and the top half of mine. eventually i fell in love with someone and married.

                       at about 25 i began to have an interest in lesbians, not the purient interest many have, but an interest in reading stories about their lives, accomplishments and love affairs. i developed "gaydar" and began to recognize gay women. i worked and owned business's in a service industry and i would go out of my way to make sure they got excellent service for the best prices. this wasn't to try to romance them, i was presenting as a married male heterosexual and in love with my wife. before 30 i suddenly realized i was lesbian in much the way i realized i was transsexual years before. i have always had interest in gay womens rights and real lesbian love stories and films. (not gratuitus lipstick stuff). i want to look attractive as a woman but have no desire to be too fem. i am in love with a lesbian who feels the same as i do about these things, we are so much alike except she is gg and very beautiful.

                       has anyone else experienced anything like this?

beth

Consider myself Lesbian?  Gee, how many other choices have I got?.  Actually in a private sense, away from trying to put it in words for others or of trying to justify or analyse it, it is simply a type of people whom I can identify with and share with on levels I can't with hetros, even in matters having nothing to do with sex.

Sex has always been it's own little hellish piece of doubt.  personal involvement in this has always brought up questions withen myself that I never wanted to face or address.  I've always known the answers to these questions, but the questions themselves were bothersome and caused me pain.

Sex is something I have been able to dabble with under the most private of circumstances with the most private of people to me, my two wives, but even given the depth of such relationships, it was always a guilt ridden act of passion and never something attempted or entered into without reservation.

Lesbian? now, today?  I'd have to think so, though in a physical sexual sense absolutely not.  It is a sense of communication though, with special individuals and I could not really explain the difference in these people between gay men and heteros, it is simply as far as I can discribe it, a sense of communication that transends physical sex, and I find exploration of the mentality as satisphying as any physical sex I have ever had within the bounderies I could find it acceptable.

When it comes to the limits and bounderies of sex, I'm not really even sure I understand them, or where sex begins and communication leaves off, or where and how they merge, it's something I will have to learn when I can face such things in true confort and confidence within myself.  I would hope the communication and awareness factors always outweigh the purely physical ones, but I will not know this about my own relatoinships until I can face such things with true confidence and security in myself. 

I do know that the deepest and most satisfying love I have felt in any relationship was, other then occassional references to more options in the future, a completely plutonic one, based purely on essansance and having nothing to do with touching or erotic simulation in any way, other then what could be felt from the relationship itself, which for me, filled every need and desire.  If I could find something like that again, this time with present ability to fulfill it, rather then abuse it, as I did, I would be as complete and whole as possible to be.  But then they say such things are rarely found more then once in a single life.

Terri

Hello Beth.

Your experiences when you were younger mirror mine so closely, it's scary  :).  Although at the time and for many years later, I didn't consider myself a lesbian, I don't even think the word even existed back then ;D  But now as I've grown, I believe that I must be a lesbian as well.  Like many others, I was curious about being with a man in a gay relationship, it never went beyond that curiosity.  I still only like to be with women, both socially and sexually, that's one of the reasons why my wife and I intend on staying together (but not the only one  :))  I have no desire to be with a man in any situation.

Steph

Well, color me lesbian Beth and Steph. My experiences when I was a child are almost identical. I
always played with the girls preferring thier company to that of boys. My relationships went much the
same way as yours Beth right into puberty when I became shy and introverted. I did do the male
boyfriend girlfriend thing even getting into heavy petting. Those kind of relationships never really
worked for me, and were very unsatisfying.

I had so many girlfiends my mother use to call me her little Cassanova. She never knew it was just a
matter of enjoying thier company. We could talk about things they could not talk about with other
boys. They used to ask me, are you sure your not gay. I always said no but in reality I guess you
could say yes, since I am a lesbian. I have no interest in being with a man.

Interesting you should mention Christine Jorgenson, she was my hero. I even had a picture of her in
her tennis outfit next to my bed. She was a pioneer for transwomen. Almost all of my friends are
lesbian women and gay men.

As far as gaydar goes I can spot a gay man from several blocks away but lesbians seem to escape me
somehow. Although since I seem to pick lesbians for friends even before I know they are lesbian I
guess it works on a subconcious level. I had one lesbian friend in college I used to go to the mall with
and girl watch together. She was my best friend. She lives in Chicago, We don't keep in touch as
much as we used to. Now that I think about it I need to call her. We haven't talked since
before I came out.

Cassie

My experiences when I was a child are the same as y-all.

Many men say thay are "lesbians traped in a man's body". I hear it alot from other men. I tell them I'm a transvesbian but, I also have an up on them because I dress the part too. But the truth is, lesbians are not into men sexually...not even a little bit. Fact is there alot of lesbians who don't even accept us tg's.  I have said before that I'm a lesbian with a surprise...which is true, but I have found it offends most lesbians.

I too have lesbian friends, but that is because I never even hint at flirting with them, as they get sick and tired of men saying sexual stuff to them.

I have found bi-girls are the most open minded about being my lover. When I 1st met my gf I told her "I'd be the perfect outlet for your latient lesbian desires!" and that I am. I'm both genders and it  is an asset for us both in bed.

So I feel I'm a transvesbian into bi-gilrs as lesbians are not into my 'surprise'.

Love
Deb

QuoteBut the truth is, lesbians are not into men sexually...not even a little bit. Fact is there alot of lesbians who don't even accept us tg's.  I have said before that I'm a lesbian with a surprise...which is true, but I have found it offends most lesbians.

              we aren't into men sexually or any other way, not necessarily hating men but just prefering women, non hetero women in my case, to associate with, work with, have sex with and to love.

              i know that most lesbian women will be suspicious of me upon first meeting (suspicious i'm not female) and i accept that. i know that anyone that spends time with me and gets to know me will know that i'm a woman and a lesbian, not exactly like them because i was "raised by wolves" so to speak but sharing most views and interests. if any simply refuse to give me any time, i feel it's their loss.
             
                i thought you considered yourself a male TV  Deb, or both genders?  lesbian by definition is a woman. the suprise you have is much less of an issue compared to you not being female. the suprise isn't what offends, it's using the word lesbian to describe someone other than a female. i like the transvesbian word.

beth

I guess I must have been unlucky when I was a very young child.  My adoptive father was informed about my Gender Dysphoria just before the adoption took place.  He was told by a psychiatrist, and I quote, "Make that boy into a man.  Do whatever is necessary to make that happen."

When I began to realize, about three years later, that I felt like I should be wearing feminine clothing, I was very lucky that he never found out about it.

My adoptive mother caught me once, shortly after I turned twelve, in the bedroom belonging to my two younger sisters, trying on their clothes.  (This was possible because, even though I was twelve years old, I was as small or smaller than either of my sisters was, so I could wear the clothes belonging to my youngest sister, Jennifer, quite comfortably.)   Mom never told my adoptive father because he would have become extremely violent at the mere thought of my showing feminine characteristics.

As I developed sexually, I could not decide whether I wanted to have sex with women or men, so I jumped from one side of the fence to the other and back again repeatedly for many years.

I have not been lucky with men; my experiences have ended up with my being physically harmed, in one way or another, in every single relationship that I have had with them over the years.

I have had much better luck with women; the only time that I have ever been attacked by a female lover was my most recent girlfriend who, for some reason, did not believe that anyone could love her.  Because of that. she denied my love and things began to turn sour, to the point where she started throwing food at me in anger and actually tried to hit me, at which point I walked away.

I did not realize that I identified as a lesbian until about four years ago.

I will never feel comfortable with men in the same way as I presently do with women, as I have done with females since I was very young.  I have no interest in men beyond the merest acquaintanceship.

Tiffani

Quote from: beth on July 23, 2005, 02:12:00 AM
                       I have always had interest in gay womens rights and real lesbian love stories and films. (not gratuitus lipstick stuff). i want to look attractive as a woman but have no desire to be too fem. i am in love with a lesbian who feels the same as i do about these things, we are so much alike except she is gg and very beautiful.

                       has anyone else experienced anything like this?

beth

Yes, I had what is known as a "lipstick lesbian" girlfriend. She was not the dyky looking type, but was a very attractive mid-thirties woman who had lived most of her adult life in lesbian relationships. Unfortunately she was a horrible control freak and when she discovered that I was not a type-B controllable personality, she became a bitch from hell. Since that time I have fallen very hard for my present girlfriend and lover LeslieGirl, a post-op MtF who also posts here at Susans. We share a certain commonality and a wonderful lesbian-type of relationship without too much GG type head tripping and mean spirited stuff like I had to endure with the GG Lesbian.

That's so interesting, before I came to these boards, I thought I was the only one to use the term "lesbian in a man's body."  Although right now I'm very confused and still coming to terms with my newly "freed" feelings (been a long life of repression until lately) I have thought about if I was to complete my transformation through surgery, how my sex life would be.  Obviously, I'd prefer still being with women, but I do feel that I already have some bi tendencies and have thought about the idea of having sex with a man after surgery.  I admit the idea is a curiosity more than anything (what does it feel like on the other end?).

Stephanie,

It's a long trip from here to there and you may surprise yourself as time goes by as to what your sexual preference may end up being. I have heard of folks who started out thinking they were lesbian and ended up hetero at the other end. I've even read posts by some folks who started out TS only to realise along the way they were just gay and liked dressing up in womens clothes. Who knows were you will end up. Main thing is don't be afraid to explore your feelings to find out were it is you truly want to be.

Myself I am still, as I said previously in this thread, only attracted to women, in particular my wife, and really have little or no interest in sex. The thing I have found curious though is that I have started noticing men more. I can actually see some as being attractive, others are ogres I wouldn't give the time of day to. I still have no sexual attraction but have to wonder if thats not just a by product of my lack of interst in sex. Can't really say. I guess if my sex drive ever kicks in again I'll find out.   :-\

Keep on exploring Stephanie.


Cassie

Yes a TV / man cannot be a lesbian. Maybe it could have another name. My name for me is transbian because i am TS and am only attracted to other full time TS women who want a truly monogomous relationship. & years and still waiting for her... But happy letting my inner child girl grow :)

<< Yes a TV / man cannot be a lesbian. >>

Neither can a pre-op.  Lesbian sex is about sex.

really?

um, i'm not sure about that.  i always thought lesbian was much wider than just a pure sexual-act-describing term.  including attraction and flirting and friendship in such ways and so on and so forth etc...

i disagree with the "this can't be that, that can't be this" things going around here.  not because they're false necessarily - more because they're a bit pointless and confuddled, really.

look - take me for example.  i'm a person.  i could be lesbian - if i were male, i could be "gay" but only because lesbian is just a particular strange language-specificness.  so let's say... i could be gay (meaning lesbian too).  if whatever gender.

then, i could be tv.  if whatever whatever else.  i have considered trying out transvestism.  i would dress up like a man.  except this time around i'd be doing it because i wanted to.

tv/man... dodgy connections, etc.  i'm tired so excuse my words, but you know... "neither can a pre-op" - because "a pre-op" = "a man"?!  i don't ruddy well think so!  do you?

ugh very awkward time to argue stuff.  strange time point.. awake for days.  must finish uni project.  i'll just cut this one off, i'm beginning to fail making sense at all with my words.

good night!

A pre op isn't a man because a pre op is TS and for that person gender is between the ears not the legs. However, a TV is by definition a man who likes to dress in womens clothes mostly to trick straight men into sex, whereas a CD does it for women not men. Anyway that is what i have always been told.

Quote<< Yes a TV / man cannot be a lesbian. >>

Neither can a pre-op.  Lesbian sex is about sex.

Right along my own way of thinking.  Though I may blithly run around calling myself a Lesbian Identified Woman in some circles, because that is the way I feel, I do nothing of the sort around Lesbians as to them, it is a rediculous idea as I can never function as either a woman or especially as a Lesbian in the sexual sense as a pre-op.  Some Lesbians can accept me as a woman and accept the idea of my preference for women quite easily, but I have never met a fully identified Lesbian that would even consider having sex with me. In fact, many are not comfortable with me Knowing that I carry what I do, even though they can be quite socially friendly with me in some contexts.  Contrary to the wanna be belief of many, it's just not so simple as being a dyke with a built in "toy".  Not by a long shot to the moon.  In a broader sense, I get along better with st8 females then I do in tight Lesbian circles even though I am not known at all for sexual advances and they recognize that I am more of a plutonic person who is within a marrage bond, even if it is not a fullfilling relationship.

If more would quit attempting to define women and their relationships and simply learn from them how they feel about themselves and others, such discussions would not be worth the time to participate in them.  It is the attempt to redefine such things to the TG point of view that causes so much grief for the "female Identified" in womens circles.

Terri

I have no label for myself. I'm still married and my wife thinks I'm a lesbian, but she is diffinately not a lesbian (go figure) I'm not one to label myself or anyone esle for that matter. I have never liked men either sexually or friends. I do have some friends but they are gay. Most men don't want to be around me and that was even before I came out as trans. I have really never had any men friends. I was pretty much a loner. I wasn't that good looking growing up so wasn't much of a social person. I have only had girls that I have dated and the third one I married. I like girls a lot more than men, a lot more. It is not a sexual feeling though. I just like being around and doing things with women. So am I a lesbian, I don't know what I am. I don't have sex anymore. So I don't know what I am.
Sheila

QuoteHowever, a TV is by definition a man who likes to dress in womens clothes mostly to trick straight men into sex, whereas a CD does it for women not men. Anyway that is what i have always been told.

Wrong....I suppose some tg's trick men...but that is not what defines a tv. To "trick" another for sex is wrong, no mater where a person stands in the tg spectrum.

A TV is by defination a man who likes to (and needs to) dress in womens cloths. And a CD = TV. Crosdresser just sounds less clinical.

Btw, whover told you that...has no clue.

I am a cd/tv and I'm not into men sexually. Or with my own 'term' I am a transvesbian.

Love
DebTV

My definition of TS.  If you have one of those *things*, like *it*, never want to get rid of *it* and enjoy using *it* you dam sure are not TS or any kind.

Leigh

I think it's a bit silly to say things like "I wish people would quit trying to re-define things" because the definitions weren't exactly precise in the first place.  It's not a case of re-defining something if that's what you think it means.  Just as is the case with others who think different to how you think.

A "pre-op" is a TS.  I'll assume for simplicity's sake that we're talking M-to-F here (although others seem just to have ignored that - I'd like to at least give it a glancing mention).  If you're not TS then either you're not going to have the op (and therefore aren't "pre-op") or you're going in entirely the wrong direction and aught to seek help!!  Because if you're not going through all of this because it'll bring you closer to who you really are, then what in the blue hell are you going through all of this for?

"Who you really are."  Not, "who I want to identify as", or some other such middling euphamism for "not quite"... but "who I really am."  And that's exactly what it means, and nothing less!  I'm not a man.  If most women had green noses, and you had a green nose, that would not make you a woman.  Similarly, most men have tackle.  So do I, at the moment.  That doesn't make me a man.  There is no "automatic assumption unless proven otherwise".  Where does that come from?  Some physical attribute at the point of birth?  How arbitrary is that?

Should I ask any woman I might meet, "prove you're a woman"?  No.  Such that should not be asked of me either, nor any other woman afflicted with my condition.

I would not call myself a lesbian "blithely".  In my case, it's a little more tricky than that, as, being bisexual, I'm never sure if the term "lesbian" applies or not.  But let's just assume it does.  Terri, you continue to confound me, I must say.  If you don't think you are a real woman, or ever will be, then that's up to you, but you should learn that everybody else who's changing their body shape isn't necessarily the same way!  And again, I would ask you... if you're not a real woman, then why on earth are you making yourself look like one?  I just don't get that.  I'm assuming you've got reasons for it.  Myself, I'm doing it because that's who I am.  Nothing less, nothing alternate, nothing somehow different in some vague way, nothing seperate, nothing dumbed-down, nothing "special case"... all woman.  That's all and that's it.  Anything else has nothing to do with it.

I am a pre-op.  And I can be a lesbian.  Assuming bisexual girls are lesbians, I am one.  Might you meet me one day, you might find me being one of those "real lesbians who won't sleep with you".  And if you forget my photo, you won't even notice the difference from me to any other of those people you term as "real lesbians" - because there is no difference.

Do what you want and be who you are, or who you want to be, but don't try and plaster everybody else with the same brush, because in this instance, it simply is not true.  Sorry to go on like this, but you do keep on saying stuff like that.  Learn that you are very different to a lot of other people on here who would call themselves "pre-op TS", and I wouldn't call you one, not if you don't think you're a "real woman".  There's nothing "bad about" or "wrong with" that, but it doesn't mean to say that everybody else must be the same, and "can never be real women" too.

Lesbians are women who are only attracted to other women.  Gay men are only attracted to other men.  This is why there is the term bi, someone who cares not which gender they are attracted to.    I suppose someone could use the argument that it changes with the relationship:  This week I am Lesbian, last  month I was straight/gay whatever. A "functioning" pre op would have something for everyone.

Lesbian identified? A person can be catholic yet not go to church or practice the tenents of the church.  A woman can be Lesbian and do the same thing within the Lesbian community.  You can attend church, you just can't approach the alter so to speak ;D

I constantly find it amazing that people who do not function and live within the Lesbian community speak with such knowlege.  Speak not of which you do not know!

<<< I am a pre-op.  And I can be a lesbian. >>>>

Ummmmmm.......nuh-uh?!  You can be lesbian-identified for sure, because there are plenty of lesbian-identified men out there.

But, if you have "tackle," as someone so blithely stated <shakes head>, then you can never-ever have lesbian sex.  What do I mean by that? 

Specifically, yeah, you can go-down on some female, but so can any man?  But the moment you go to try and bump mons, or your groin comes into contact with any part of your female partner, her mouth or whatever, it ceases to be lesbian sex.

Nobody could deny that you have the right and ability to live as any gender you want to. You may even be accepted as a woman within the lesbian community where you live. But, if you get into a relationship with someone, and have sex involving non-female parts, it ain't a lesbian relationship anymore.  So sorry!

Same is true of Bi-sexual women. The moment you have ANY kind of sex with anyone involving a non-female partner, you ain't a lesbo either.  There is nothing wrong with BI-women, or womyn as the part may be, but if want to switch back and forth, you are not str8 or lesbian.

You can have it both ways, but you cannot have it both ways?

QuoteI think it's a bit silly to say things like "I wish people would quit trying to re-define things"

Well, quit with all the colledge BS and try to think a little on it.  It is true that different people can have different definitions, but when the group that actually fits that definition, and originated the term by the way, has a point of view which differs from the point of view of others, I'll take the point of view of the group that it actually fits any day.  As to the opinions of others who do not live or associate within the selected "label" group.  who cares?  it's just blind men describing an elephant.

And Think on this Lana, If you find me confusing, and don't understand me, consider I take a certain delight in that, as I am nothing at all like you, or I would quit.  I'm something else entirely, and if you did understand me, I'd have to wonder about me.  I won't even address the issue about me and women, it would only confuse you more as you just don't seem to grasp the concept of the difference between a self identified woman and a Womans Community identified and accepted woman, nor would you care, if it can be believed you believe your own statements.

Terri

                        I am a preop transsexual and I am lesbian and I have lesbian sex with my exclusively lesbian partner. No, I am not exactly like a woman that was born with a female body. i was not raised as a female, heck i was raised by wolves, raised in a way that did not fit me. No, I am not exactly like a woman born with a female body who is lesbian. No, i do not understand what it is like to be a lesbian woman but i am learning. No, i will never completley know. No, i will never be exactly like those women who grew up female and lesbian. i missed all those experiences just as i missed being a girl and a young woman. I am lesbian because I am a transsexual woman who exclusively and only wants a relationship with a woman. I only have the capacity to fall in love with women, lesbian women. I do not use any male parts when making love. My partner knows I am a woman, she is not bi, has never been with a man and has no desire to ever be with one.   There exists no other term to describe me. If one believes a MTF transsexual is a woman then it is also possible for her to be lesbian. If she cannot be called lesbian than she cannot be called a woman. By the definitions flying around here no transsexual could be called blonde because she is not exactly like a woman born with a female body who has blonde hair. Again, I am not exactly like a woman who was born with a female body who is lesbian, that is a given. I do have lesbian sex, I have no desire to go into great detail of how that is possible, it is very imtimately personal and it isnt within the rules of this site, but I do have lesbian sex.  I understand how lesbians in general view my situation with much doubt and I don't blame them a bit, I honestly feel the same way toward most transgendered who call themselves lesbian. I do not expect blind acceptance from anyone or any acceptance from many, but if anyone gets to know me they will accept me and know who I am, a transsexual lesbian woman.

beth

Quotea transsexual lesbian woman

Nice when you can find one woman out of countless thousands who can accept that isn't it?  I wish you the same luck within hardcore communities who may accept 'woman" but would puke at the thought of sex, no matter how creative or limited.  And anyway, it would seem two way sex would be impossible under the circumstances described anyway, since only one partner would be gential stimulated under those conditions, making actual sex a one way street, not two way.  But I guess one can convience themselves of anything.  I don't know how creative you are, but I do see a difference in one servicing another and actual mutually engaged in free uninhibited sex.  Or, is there some direct stimulation to your own genitals that I'm missing here?  But then I've heard sex can be in the mind. Lesbian sex isn't usually so inhibited I understand.

                   the details of this are getting way beyond comfortable to talk about terrigene, i am sorry if you find this fraudulent, fantasized, incomprehensible or unbelievable. it seems you understand lesbian feeling perfectly because you can make statements about their feelings with such absoluteness.  i feel inhibited in no way, the existance of incorrect male genitals does not mean there is any desire or ability for them to function.  i believe people given time, have the ability to determine gender irreguardless of physical appearance or presentation, i certainly can and have. i understand exactly what lesbian sex is, it is sexual intimacy shared between two women. there is no specific body part or parts defined as needed before that can take place, except possibly in patriarchy fantasy.


beth

[edit]inappropriate sentence removed by beth[/edit]

Beth, I do not have a problem with believing a particular person who happens to be transsexual can have a relationship with a woman who happens to be Lesbian.  Just saying such a thing isn't "normal" in the community and that I would have questions of how "Sex" is defined in such a relationship where the genitals of one of the parties are totally not involved, though I am well aware that personal fullfillment can take many forms.  I am not asking you to defend yourself in this or go into sexually explicit details, for one thing, that could be pressing the rules and besides, a whole lot of us arn't all that comfortable discussing sex itself.

As to perfectly understanding anything or making statements of absolutness, so much cowpattie, as I don't and can't.  Mostly I can only relate to the feelings and behaviors of Women in my own local area, Sacramento to San Francisco, in an earlier transitional attempt more then 3 decades ago, Bakersfield to Los Angeles,and thier reactions to my involvement with them and to other transgendered women in general.  For the most part, as plutonic relational friends, most of the women I consistantly hang out with for companionship are in my own age group and of course tend to be Old School, Life Term Lesbians who came up in and were involved in the various rights movements that have set the stage for today, so some of thier views and beliefs may admittedly be somewhat more rarrowly defined then younger women who come from more diverse backgrounds, or have had earlier relatinships with men before fixing on lesbian life.

As to how you accomplish sex, Please do keep it to yourself, I was just posing some thoughts about such things which make sense to me but don't necessarily need to be dignified with an answer.

Quote
but if anyone gets to know me they will accept me and know who I am, a transsexual lesbian woman.

I'd go with you on that one if it were qualified with a Non Practicing Transsexual Lesbian woman.  Sorry, that old school association again ....

Terri

Quote from: Terri-Gene on August 12, 2005, 10:34:34 PMWell, quit with all the colledge BS and try to think a little on it.

college bs?  what in the hell is that all about?  i didn't go there to learn how to speak bs... neither did i learn that.  i went there because it's the done thing around these parts, and it'll get me a piece of paper that tells employers i'm allowed to earn a halfway-decent paycheck.  that's all.  never have i ever mentioned going to college as anything that makes me higher or mightier or better or anything... so what's all that about?

if you've got issues about not (i assume) having gone to college yourself... then that's your problem - don't use it as some excuse for being "more real" than people who have.  i never mentioned the fact once in relation to any argument here.  i'm not using "speaking techniques" or any such bs against you.  the very fact that you assume i was is quite insulting.  learn some manners damnit.

Quote

Just consider it a personal realational difficulty Lana, I got nothing against higher education, in fact you would be surprised at the number of individual Degrees and honors I have laying around that used to cover my "Ego Wall" in times past, but now remain stacked in a closet until such time as they find thier way into the trash, none of them were earned in a university, though they are state and federally certified.  In fact, out of four P.O.S.T. Acadimies for different state and federal levels, among other things best not mentioned, I graduated #1 in my class in two of them, though I may have had an unfair advantage in pure real life experience in the criteria being taught by that time, but it isn't me and has no application to my present life, to much of it is extreamly specialised, or I would hope not.  Just "pieces of paper" anymore that I could have done without had things been different, or I myself had been different.

terri

Off topic.  Go to yur conors and kool don.

Gladly, and thank you.

terri

omg, i didn't mean to bring on a description of your academic history.  that's precisely what i was attempting to tell you - that it's completely irrelevant, as is mine, as is anything else not to do with what's being argued - so kindly leave it out!

i just can't believe your know-it-all attitude.  i get the thing that some people would consider a bisexual woman to not be a lesbian... that's a reasonable view because the issue could be argued either way.  i'm not sure what's right on that count.

what riles me is that if i were only romantically inclined towards women, you wouldn't call me a lesbian, because i wouldn't count as a "real woman".  you'd give some hideous euphamism for "pretend woman" like "female-identified"... that is an example of BS.  if you'd have bothered to read through my post at all, you'd have noticed that i specifically stated that i wasn't "female-identified" or any other such euphamistic garbage.  i... am... a... woman.  for you to then turn around and suggest that i might think of that possibility, as though i didn't think of it before, only proves you couldn't so much as be bothered to read through a post you were replying to.  how much more arrogant could you possibly be?  never mind.  but it doesn't make for evolving conversation, need i say.

oh and i'll forget about the comments about you enjoying annoying and confusing me.  another thing that's completely off-topic, not to mention just plain bitchy.  keep your personal opinions of me to yourself.  or... if you want to tell me how pleased you are that i don't understand your viewpoints, pm me about it; keep it off of the boards.

dragging this kicking and screaming back onto the topic... do you want me to tell you why i would concur with beth's way of seeing things rather than yours?  as i see it, we might be getting mixed up here by putting too many points in one post.  so let's start with one and go back and forth with that.  it might lead to more constructive debate, and we might solve this after all.

solve what?  well, if two people's opinions differ so much on a subject, the truth lies somewhere in between.  if we are able to eventually meet at that point through debate (involving both of us listening to one another and staying on-topic), others might find their viewpoints easy to join onto the scale between ours... and thus we might all come to a consensus on the issue.  that surely is useful stuff.  so, do you want to do this?

if so, it doesn't matter who starts.  so seeing as it's me who's talking right at this minute, i'll start (remembering to keep it to a singular point):

the issue is partially based on the 'question' of whether or not a pre-op TS is a 'real woman' in every sense.  so let's tackle that, to begin with.  do you think she is?  (if so, why, and if not, why not)

I pass Lana, and concede to your ultimate wisdom, thank you for your insights on women and their relationships.

terri

Okay fair dues if you don't want to discuss the subject.

What a snide, sarcastic off-hand comment, though.  If you want to finish the conversation, have the decency to actually finish it.  If you want to be nasty after you've supposedly finished it, then that's not finishing it, is it?

I'm not stuck-up and I don't think I know everything.  Why would I bother arguing with anybody if I thought I knew all the answers anyway?  That'd be completely pointless.  So I only had to say this here, now, on the boards, to defend against your sarcastic sideswipe just then...

... so, seeing as I'm choosing not to use any likewise comments at the end of this post to try and muddy your character, can we end this now?  If you want to reply, can you do it via pm, seeing as it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread?

...

Now, back on topic... does anybody else who holds a view opposing mine, want to debate this issue?  I think it'd be interesting, and informative, to try and connect these two very opposing views (plus any others there might be!).  Maybe you want to suggest the starting point of the debate this time around.  I think sticking to singular points at a time would be good, just my opinion.

Okay everyone, let's just take a moment to breath, and compose ourselves.

I believe that this thread has lost it's direction as origionally started by Beth, and it has become convoluted and hard to follow.

May I recommend that we close this thread, and maybe Svetlana, you could start a new thread, asking  a new question along the lines of your last post and see where that leads.

Also I am reminding evryone to keep disagreements on points of view, civil, and not personal.  Remember that these are points of view, so lets maintain a friendly atmosphere.

Chat later

Steph

Woo-hoo!  My work here is done!

Such passion warms my heart.

To Terri:  Yeah, you can say I am old-school too, even though I work with nothing but kids.  I am ancient.

To Beth:  Wow, if you can pull that off without either of you going insane, more power to you.  I know that has got to be ridiculously hard to maintain until you feel sexually available to your partner.  And Terri is correct, that woman of your'n is very, very rare indeed.

To: Svetlana:  What exactly are you trying to debate darlin'?  Sounds like you are itchin' to call someone out with guns blazin'?

To Leigh:  Peacemaker?  We have to talk.

Stephanie wrote

QuoteI believe that this thread has lost it's direction

So to help get back on track, here is the original premise of the thread from Beth.

Quote                       i know that lots of MTF transsexuals consider themselves lesbian, many liking women all their lives, some even staying with their wives thru transition. i am lesbian but i haven't heard anyone else discribe their orientation developing in the way mine has. i would love to hear of others experiences or comments on mine to see if there are any similarities.

posted by terrigene,

"Nice when you can find one woman out of countless thousands who can accept that isn't it?  I wish you the same luck within hardcore communities who may accept 'woman" but would puke at the thought of sex, no matter how creative or limited."


Posted by thundra,

"To Beth:  Wow, if you can pull that off without either of you going insane, more power to you.  I know that has got to be ridiculously hard to maintain until you feel sexually available to your partner."



                     "Wow" and "Nice" to you both too. I am sexually available to my partner and neither of us is going insane. There are many lesbian couples that aren't using every single sexual part in all ways in their relationships. Ever heard the term Stone Dyke? I'd love to see someone tell them they are non- practicing lesbians. I know very little about lesbian society.  i know what a lesbian relationship is, i am in one and i understand lesbian sex and it isnt defined as you two are defining it here. I do know that I will wait to hear from others much more qualified than I have heard from here. Maybe the "old school"     :icon_rolleyes:   needs to go back to school and those that have been rejected should look within rather than branding a whole community with the same iron.


"Sorry to let the sun shine on your thunder"

"just posing some thoughts about such things which make sense to me"


beth

Quote from: beth on August 16, 2005, 01:33:40 AM



  Ever heard the term Stone Dyke?

Nope but I have heard of butch, stone butch, bull dagger and diesel dyke.  The last two are old school.

QuoteThere are many lesbian couples that aren't using every single sexual part in all ways in their relationships. Ever heard the term Stone Dyke? I'd love to see someone tell them they are non- practicing lesbians

Due to my misunderstanding and ignorance of Lesbian culture and individuals within that culture, I would be highly interested in what these people are doing that would suggest they are not using thier sexual parts in thier relationships?  As to the term "Dyke", I can and have used that term in application to myself at times, but am somewhat reserved about doing so, as I consider such an application to be reserved to a very special and select group of people who have a much more secure and comfortable relationship with themselves and the world then I presently do.  Within the culture itself, I more identify as "butch".  Those that identify and are socially recognised as "Dykes" are very special people to me and I consider them very special people, superior to myself in thier personal comfort and security.  In other words, in themselves.  More in terms of FTW, with a more complete understanding of the worlds relationships toward themselves and thier kind, and actually living by it in the daily priciples of thier lives.


Terri

From my understanding, if you are "stone", you pleasure your partner and don't allow her to touch parts of your body. It's not uncommon and is a part of lesbian history. Stone butches consider themselves as sexual as anyone else. I have no idea of the mechanics of it, having never been with one or been one myself, but I do know that using a dildo is acceptable to some stone butches.

Dennis

For those who like internet informations and descriptions, a good place to start, and this particular page talks a little about why some of us older folks are the way we are, but there is much to explore.  If you want to get really real, there are better sites, but afraid to start to much of a ruckus here with them as they would totally contradict the TG point of view.  At the bottom of the page you will find a link to TERMS if you like.

  http://www.butch-femme.com/Faq/whoarewe.htm

Be wary though, different locals and communities and sub cultures within communities can be vastly different from generalisations.

Terri

Interesting.
Thank you for the link Terri.

                        what i heard long ago was the  the term "stone" was derived from the general term "stone cold" and refered to those queer women that did not want to be touched by their partners. the term is old school but people still exist who feel this way, just as Dennis has described. my point was that every couple comes to their own terms as to what they will engage in sex wise. many hetro couples just do certain things, use certain parts and never others, same with gay men etc. this term has nothing to do with me, i just used it to illustrate that there is no prescribed sexual act that is necessary to define hetro, gay or lesbian sex in my opinion. i am not going to label someone who is "stone" a non lesbian, a non practicing lesbian (though i'm sure they don't have to practice any more  ;D) or say they do not engage in lesbian sex.

beth

QuoteThank you for the link Terri.

You may have noticed that this particular site is also a forum, such as this one, by and for Lesbians, that particular page was simply an info page.  I just thought it was fair as Beth brought up the issue of "Stone" and that particular forum has a large Stone representation. There are many such.  There is TG/TS respresentation in such forums, perhaps it might be helpful to explore some of the views there and in other such forums, but depending on your sensitivity, careful which ones.  There are many places where the women are not into modern PC at all, by any means.  though there are many that are.

Terri

Oh Oh.  If her gender wasn't female I wouldn't be attracted to her no matter what physical bits this person had.  Lesbianism has everything to do with gender, attraction or not. 

Lesbian bed death is a joke and the truth.  So if two women who have been together for years and no longer have sex they arn't lesbians?  Dam I better tell K & D that after 37 years they are kicked out of the club.

Heterosexuality is merely a form of sexual attraction nothing more

Ask your parents if this statement is true.

Quote
Why segregate each other on the basis of gender or sexual orientation? We are all one big happy family, no?

We who?  Society? Susan's?




Posted at: August 18, 2005, 11:00:56 PM

---

Exactley who is this mythical us?

Not once ever has there been an "us".  Every person has their own agenda and aligns themselves with a particular group/s that are as close as possible to their own thoughts and beliefs.

My "us" is other women.

its a lot deeper then what you call it and just not that simple, just let it pass till you understand more, it has to do with unbreakable bonds and beliefs which are deeper then you could know in many cases.  A total and unshakable way of life and living.  You don't have to understand it, Just respect it.

Terri

To learn is to grow and change.

I really like DebTV's comment

....Many men say they are "lesbians trapped in a man's body". I hear it alot from other men. I tell them I'm a transvesbian but, I also have an up on them because I dress the part too....

Transvesbian is a very good description of who I am.  Thanks for the idea.

AnneW

I thought a lesbian is what I was but the more I examined my feelings the more I realised that I am heterosexual. The reason lesbian thoughts came for me is that I feel the most comfortable with women. I love the conversations,the topics,the attitude and the acceptance. I especially love the physical contact and the hugs. I don't believe that men are capable of that kind of intimacy.  However when I have vagina I now feel I want sex with a man. I now feel like I understand my sexual feelings clearer than at any other time in my life.

Quote from: Leigh on August 10, 2005, 04:51:21 PM
My definition of TS.  If you have one of those *things*, like *it*, never want to get rid of *it* and enjoy using *it* you dam sure are not TS or any kind.

Leigh

I know... old thread....but very, very, very, very, very, true!!!!!!

Atta girl!   



tinkerbell

P.S.  why are these important threads getting all dusty?  probably we're just paying way too much attention to our daily activities that we've forgotten to look at more interesting things... ;)

I see there have been some strong opinions expressed here, so don't hate me for bumping this one... :D

First of all, glad to see I'm not the only one who identifies so much with lesbians. Even as a preteen I felt this way, although I didn't really know very much about the community back then so didn't understand what it was that I was feeling.

Someone said that if an M2F cannot be called a lesbian then she cannot be called a woman. Very true! We're all what we are, not what we have. Just like I'm human and even if I had green skin and a face like Cthulhu I'd still be human.

So, a person can be heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual. Well what about those of us who are in between? I've called myself bi for a while now, but am not sure it fits me that well, as I'm nowheres near 50/50 and a big part of me identifies as lesbian. But I have been known to like men too (e.g. my perpetual crush on Jimmy Fallon) and once post-op, I'd definitely want to have a hetero experience to see what it's like. I just am not attracted to nearly as many men as women.

More and more it seems to me that the thought of being close with another woman is soooo much more appealing than being with a man. So there's 2 reasons why I'm inclined to apply the label of Lesbian to myself. Right now, for the time being I've settled on: Am I primarily? Yes. Am I exclusively? No.

Which has led me to wonder, is someone who strongly prefers one gender to the other still bi? Does a person really have to be a Kinsey 6 to call themselves homosexual, or are the 5s allowed into the club too? How about the 4s?

I've never had much interest in men.  There's a curiosity of what post op sex would be like with a man but that's where it ends.  But women?  There's something about women that I love!  Or should I say so much about women I love that I can't list everything?  And to me a woman is defined by what's inside.

It's been almost a year since I stopped living in denial.  Little by little I have come to an understanding about why I wasn't like other guys.  When I saw boys react to girls in their typical ways I wondered why I just wanted to hang out with them and not make out with them (although making out wasn't out of the question).  As I grew older and heard my friends talk about girls I couldn't relate.  I so badly missed female companionship it was often mistaken for being obsessed with girls.  My friends thought I was nuts.  I now see I just needed to be one of the girls.  Many times while married I didn't understand why doing those gentlemanly things didn't come natural.  I had to think about it and remind myself to act like a gentleman.  And when I watched the dads at my son's wrestling events I wondered why I didn't want to be there with them laughing and being all manly. 

Now I know.  All along there was a girl/woman inside that I was denying the opportunity to be herself.  I never had a chance at being a normal guy.

i am a lesbian an i love myself and so i love others like me who live full time as women. They can be butch femme pre or non or post but i still wait for true love and won't settle for intimacy without a feeling of love. So i have been single since i had my surgery in 98. Its ok but it could be more :)


PS: I am visitng Phila Pa right now and not sure where i will go next.. keep me in your prayers.. hugs love Danielle