Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I went to church this morning and received several compliments on my jacket, on my hair, on my necklace.  Everyone called me Kate and, most of the time, she.  A new college-age girl was there who is a couple inches taller than me and has a squarer jaw (but of course looks a lot cuter and more feminine than I do).  I had a long conversation with a gay man and a straight woman about the common issues of gays and TGs and how some things are tougher for gays than for heterosexual TSs.

I went to the café I usually go to for Sunday lunch.  I know the owner and almost all of the staff and have known them for years.  I sat down.  The waitress comes over and says: "What can get for you, sir?"

Sh**!

On her next pass I stopped her and said: "Look.  I'm trying very hard to become a woman.  It would help me if you didn't call me sir.  You don't have to call me anything, just don't call me sir."  She gave me her squinty-eyed smile and said: "Sure.  No problem.  I can do that for you."

She is one of my least favorite waitresses, partially because I find her very difficult to read.  Regardless, she came by and treated me more or less the same as she always does but didn't call me anything.  When she brought the check, though, she did say ma'am.

I think she said something to the hostess (who is new and I don't know), because that woman hadn't called me anything when I came in but called me "ma'am" several times after my little talk with the waitress.

Ah, the sweet vicissitudes of transition. :P  Take pleasure in the ups because there will be some downs, too.

- Kate

See, this is part of what I'm afraid about once I go full time. I'm part time right now, and so when someone ma'ams me, I feel that I have no right to correct them because I am not out full-time, I don't really pass very well, and really what point is there to force strangers into an awkward exchange for my own benefit when I spend half of my life being "willingly" seen as a "girl" (out of necessity) anyways. Like, what right do I have? And besides, what real benefit will it give me after they've already maam'd me and I'm having to "force" them to treat me as a guy anyways? Like, wouldn't that feel like an empty victory?

And so I'm afraid that even once I go full time, I'll still be too afraid/ashamed to stand up for myself in those situations and correct people who see me as a "girl"...

Those of you who *are* full time, and *do* correct people who address you incorrectly, are SO brave, and I just don't know if I'll have the guts to follow your examples...

:(

QuoteThose of you who *are* full time, and *do* correct people who address you incorrectly, are SO brave, and I just don't know if I'll have the guts to follow your examples...

Are you on T yet? ...... 'cos IMO you might well find that you become a lot more ...... er......outspoken ..... and that people who make the mistake of Ma'm-ing you once won't be back for a second helping ;)   (though of course, YMMV )

Quote from: Steffi on September 20, 2009, 07:20:01 PM
Are you on T yet? ...... 'cos IMO you might well find that you become a lot more ...... er......outspoken ..... and that people who make the mistake of Ma'm-ing you once won't be back for a second helping ;)   (though of course, YMMV )

Actually, I hadn't thought of that aspect, I sure hope it turns out that way. I won't be able to start T yet for another year at least though. The only doc here who can facilitate a T script has a 12-18 month waiting list... :(

Sound so familiar.  I shop at a local convenience store for cigarettes and most of the employees treat me as a woman, which I am.  But the other day a friend and I went up to get cigarettes.  And the girl behind the counter said "Thanks Guy". ???

I mentioned it to the manager and her reply was "That is BS.  That does not fly in this store."  As my friend was paying, the manager sent another girl to take over the register and called the woman in question into the office.  Since then the woman in question avoid me like the plague.   ;D

You need to learn to pick your battles.  But own the ground you stand on.


Janet

Quote from: Janet Lynn on September 20, 2009, 08:19:23 PM
You need to learn to pick your battles.  But own the ground you stand on.

Wow Janet, that is really good advice, and put so plainly yet perfectly. Thank you.

I'm really, really impressed with you Kate. I can't do the things you do, when I run into people like that waitress I just kinda look at my feet and wilt. You are really giving this a lot of thought and effort, respect.

The easiest way to deal with that kind of waitress is with two words.  "Excuse Me?"

Most back down after that.
Janet

Becca, a few months ago I would have ignored it, internalised it, and stewed for the rest of the day.  (I'm stewing about it for the rest of the day anyway. ::))

I was hoping that transitioning would make me a nicer person, and I'd really like to be a nice person.  But instead transition seems to be making me a tougher one.  :P  Oddly enough, I seem to have a lot more balls as a woman than I ever did as a man.  Who'd'a thunk? ???

That b****h who's a little ragged today,
Kate

Yeah, I like to say that I have a lot more balls now than ever when I had testicles.

Face to face I never get sir'd.  But if it is voice only, it's 50-50.  The other day I was in the drive through line at McDonald's and as I was ordering, the lady sir'd me on the intercom.  I cringed inside and I debated whether to correct her or not. 

I finally said "I'm a woman and yes, please upsize the drink."

"Yes, ma'am."

When I got to the window she smiled and apologized as she took my money.

And instead of crying about it the rest of the night, I actually felt pretty good.  I have always had a problem standing up for myself.   So now when I do I feel like I am becoming more the person I always should have been.  And sometimes that person is a witch with a capital "B"!

-Sandy(That's Ms Witch to you!!!)

I've found that now that I pretty much pass 100% with strangers that I don't really correct my coworkers when they slip up.  Most times it's not in front of clients.  And when they do most clients don't notice; they go with their visual and my name is clearly male.

It's just gotten to the point that I'm living finally as myself, as a regular guy, that I dont' really think of being trans and I even forget sometimes that I had to live as 'her'.  She's gone.

Like Janet said, pick your battles.


Jay

I my self, and pre-t pre-op tho have lives my life and male for almost a year now. Most people cant tell that I was born female, and I love that, tho for the times someone ma'ams me or she or her, so on, i get so enraged i can't corrected them. It makes me feel like m skins is on fire and boiling. I usally don't saying anything just walk away in fear of "freaking out". Though there are times I correct them....its when it comes to friends (that knew me before I came out) and family that I find it difficult to correct them...anyone else find it more difficult to correct family and long time friends then it is to correct strangers?



d.j

Quote from: djknyht on September 24, 2009, 10:51:54 PM
its when it comes to friends (that knew me before I came out) and family that I find it difficult to correct them...anyone else find it more difficult to correct family and long time friends then it is to correct strangers?

It hurts to be called the wrong pronoun, but that's only because we're sensitive to it.  How I correct people depends on the setting, but I have gotten so that I correct everyone except on the telephone.

I gently correct those I love or am friendly with.  I am a little more assertive with those who don't know me.  I try to always be polite about it.  The mistakes are out of habit or ignorance.  So far (*fingers crossed*) I haven't had anyone do it out of malice.  (Woe is to them, for then the wrath of Kate will be upon them. ;))

- Kate

I possibly think that i find it harder for my self just beucase my family is aware of the fact that I'm trans but I never...told them verbally from my own mouth..so its still sorta an untouched subject with my family. my mom refers to me as male, and by a nick name I was givin but not by damien, only when a large group of my friends and I are at the house...she also thought itd be funny to put a pic of me as a little "girl" on my cake this year for my birthday as a kinda joke of this is what he used to be type of thing...i myself didnt find it funny...AT ALL. though I said nothing and jus went long with the joke...which didnt help my mental state...

I found that the more I repressed, the unhappier I was.  When I could finally open up to others, I began to relax and flower.

Quote from: djknyht on September 25, 2009, 10:56:53 AM
I possibly think that i find it harder for my self just beucase my family is aware of the fact that I'm trans but I never...told them verbally from my own mouth..so its still sorta an untouched subject with my family.

I know guys don't like to talk about feelings and what they hold inside them, but perhaps it is time for you to actually talk to your family verbally from your own mouth. ;)  Just a thought, Damien.

- Kate

I have felt for a whiile it has been time to have the "talk" with my family, just they dont seem to care, and i doubt my mother would respect me either way. So im going to take this subject into FTM nd start a new topic for this family issue...please join...

K8 dashing women like you may get the occasional "sir" I'd not worry about it. I see TALL and "horsey" college gals all the time, they probably get more "sirs" than you do these days.

I take it you left the waitress a tip, kate?

I hope this doesn't classify as stealing the thread, it's not meant to :-*

I'm certainly tolerated in the community, I pass-ish, except for voice, I'm working on it but a long way to go. But I do need the war paint, either because I hide behind it or it hides me, not sure.

I often don't answer my front door. I have a camera and if I do not know the person I just leave it. I've been trying to analyze why.  I think it's because I don't wear make up at home and am too frightened or ashamed to be outed at my own front door. How have any of you overcome this. It seems an afront to my core to feel 'unsafe' in my own home.

Feeling Silly

Cindy

At least you're not wearing a pistol on your hip, been known in the past to answer the door with a .45 in hand, lol.

A camera isn't a bad idea no matter who you are.

In your case, all it takes is some obnoxious teens ringing your door to see you half-dressed to start a lot of hassle, egged on by their parents of course.

I don't consider your camera procedure to be too extreme at all, myself.

Cindy,
Early on, when I was determined to be more open but hadn't started full time (in fact, I think I still thought of myself as CD then), the front doorbell rang.  I usually ignored it if I was dressed en femme.  (Gawd, those were the days!)  At the time I was obviously male and would dress a little over the top in women's clothes.  I had told myself I would go answer it anyway, but old habits are hard to break.

Anyway, hiding, I peeked around the corner and saw two Mormon missionaries or Jehovah's Witnesses just leaving and thought: D***, I missed my chance!  >:-)

(Another time, I did answer the door.  But it was just the UPS guy.  He's unflappable and no fun. >:()

Cindy, it's your house.  You can wear anything you please.  If they don't like it, they can go ring someone else's doorbell.

- Kate

I'm with you, Heather.  I've had this discussion with other women my age.  A waitress will come up to us and say: What can I get you guys?  We all look at each other, remembering a time when there were Guys and Dolls, and roll our eyes. ::)

I try to remind myself that it is a move to de-gendering our culture, which should be a good thing for us TGs, but I still don't like it. 

(Just getting old, I guess.  These young whippersnappers show no respect! :eusa_snooty:)

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on October 05, 2009, 07:32:01 AM
I'm with you, Heather.  I've had this discussion with other women my age.  A waitress will come up to us and say: What can I get you guys?  We all look at each other, remembering a time when there were Guys and Dolls, and roll our eyes. ::)

- Kate

The whole guy/dude applied to a group of people regardless of their gender has been around for quite a while.  I too hate it and the first few times it was applied to me, I thought I had been read.

While that was true a couple of times, in all other cases it was just a busy server trying to deal with a crowd.  In other occasions where it is more formal or less busy, the proper honorific of  ma'am, miss (bless them!), madam, or ladies has been used.

I don't particularly think that degendering is a conscious effort on the will of society and it may be unique to the USA.  Does anyone from across the big pond have an opinion?

-Sandy

Quote from: heatherrose on October 05, 2009, 07:20:37 AM

"No way, man!" "Later, dude." and "What are you guys doing?" Just when
I think I got all the answers they change the friggin' questions.

Heather, I can relate to the irritation, especially the 'guys' part. In the northeast (NY, NJ, MA) it is commonly "youse guys". When I moved here to GA and was managing restaurants, I would often hear servers refer to the guests (male or female) as guys - "Hi guys, I'm so-n-so, what can I getcha?", "let me know when you guys are ready", "thanks guys, see you soon". This used to irk me to no end - and this was before I knew I was trans and that I was a woman. I worked very, very hard to train these young 'kids' to not call their guests 'guys', especially the women. It might be okay for your friends in high school, but not for adults who are paying good money for good food and service and may be entertaining clients who are there on business from some other corner of the world where ma'am, sir, ladies, gentlemen are the proper terms used in proper conversation. JMO.

Deanna

Yeah gals say "dude" all the time even "bro" I've heard it. They say "guys" like "you guys" etc. a lot of what you gals are hearing are "background noise" not personal. Some may be what I'd call "probing" they're experimenting to see if you'll startle or get offended. Of course the best thing is to not react.

Just this morning Julie and I were talking about the whole reaction thing to the way others gender you.  Transition is both physical and mental.  Part of the mental transition is getting to that place where you don't crumble when someone mis-genders you (my opinion).

I told her that while I'm not going to walk up to someone and say "Hi! I'm a ->-bleeped-<-.  BTW, my name is Julie.  How are you?" I also am not going to get all bent out of shape if they gender me male.  I do, however, reserve the right to correct them if I wish.  ;)

When I finally felt peace in this life is when I knew how others judge me does not define me.  That's freedom.

Julie

I think the issue of "dude" and "guys" is getting blown out of proportion. A lot of other girls (GGs) I know say dude, or use the general term "guys" when referring to a group of mixed-gender people. I don't see what the problem is. Instead of someone saying, "Hey guys!" when referring to a large group, would you rather they say something like, "Hey miss, sir, sir, miss, miss, sir!" or "Hey people!"?

"Dude" and "Guys" are pretty much slang at this point, and have been for a while. They are general terms people use, and do not necessarily have the same original meaning. I don't think anyone is thinking, "Oh my! My gender identity is so insignificant! I guess I should start using male-specific pronouns to further denounce my gender identity!" Do you really think GGs think that much about their gender identity?

~Sarah

I think this is cultural and geographic,

In Australia, If I walked into my lab of some 6-8 mainly female, ranging from 35ish-18ish, and said good morning girls, or ladies, they would think I was smoking something that Tekla had sent me. Yes its very much "Hi Guys". At  a high class restaurant; they'd have fresh straw on the floor, :laugh:, Good evening sir and ma'am. Can I get you ladies a drink etc.

Generally Australia is very relaxed over such pronouns. It would ony be offensive if said sneeringly. " Good Evening,   "Ladies?"
If some one said Ma'am it would probably be at a funeral or A State Function :laugh:

Cindy

Well, out here in the provinces I haven't heard dude when addressing a woman, especially *ahem* a woman of a certain age.  But then we're so backward I've even had young people hold the door for me.  (Not often, but it has happened.  I didn't even have my walker at the time. ;))

- Kate

Quote from: heatherrose on October 05, 2009, 05:47:51 PM

Granted, guys has been allowed to become
commonly used but come on dude, DUDE?

Pretty much yes amongst the younger set.  When I started transition I enjoyed it, even though they also called women coworkers 'dude' as well.


Jay

QuoteWell, out here in the provinces I haven't heard dude when addressing a woman, especially *ahem* a woman of a certain age.  But then we're so backward I've even had young people hold the door for me.  (Not often, but it has happened.  I didn't even have my walker at the time. ;))

- Kate

I hold doors for everyone, such as those who want to enter right behind me.  There's no point in letting it swing shut in their faces.

A co-worker, about age 40, addresses all women, including those 40 years his senior, as "Miss".
I find that a bit over the top.

This is an area where I get confused. I'm called ma'am 90% of the time but it doesn't bother me a bit to be called sir. We all want to pass but let's be honest, it takes alot of time and money unless you're one of the lucky few. Without make-up I'm called ma'am 40/50% of the time but so what? When I just need to run to the post office or to get a few groceries I don't do make-up. Read the post about going out with other transgendered people. Almost everyone said they don't because its easier to get outed. I firmly believe that we all think we are more paasable than we really are? So what? Somebody calls me sir, big deal I've been a man for 43 years, am I supposed to freak and not go out or give up because some person called me sir? My goodness, we have found the courage to get this far! Its not easy but its better than the alternative.

Quote from: sneakersjay on October 05, 2009, 09:53:01 PM
Pretty much yes amongst the younger set.  When I started transition I enjoyed it, even though they also called women coworkers 'dude' as well.

Oh, I enjoy it every single time still.

And I echo another person's comment about not wanting to correct people because I'm only part time...I know I don't pass (at least not with voice) so it seems awkward to correct them on something I know will cause tension. Once the 'ma'am' leaves their lips the damage is done...I know anything after that is just forced because I insisted, and what's worse, they might bring it up to someone I was already passing to and outing me, albeit good-intentioned. So do I bring it up and shove myself into the spotlight? Or stay silent?

I've always seen "you guys" as being an attempt to distinguish the plural you from the singular you.  As in, "Im talking to all of you guys right now, not just to you, Kate."  *shrugs*  But then, I guess I'm young enough that I've never known anything else.  That and I really detest being lumped in with "you ladies".  ;)

Now, I've never heard anyone refer to a girl as "dude".  Maybe it's regional.  Or maybe I just don't hang with a young enough crowd.  I have heard "dude" used frequently as a general exclamation like "whoa" or "wow".

---

I also wanted to say, Kate, that I think you handled that waitress very well.  You were polite, yet firm.  Very diplomatically done.  :icon_cool:  I have to say, I really admire the way you handle coming out and dealing with issues around transition.  Dare I say I wish I had your balls?  ;) >:-)   :D

Quote from: CindyJames on October 05, 2009, 05:33:09 PMGenerally Australia is very relaxed over such pronouns. It would ony be offensive if said sneeringly. " Good Evening,   "Ladies?"
If some one said Ma'am it would probably be at a funeral or A State Function :laugh:

This is very true, I hear it occasionally in Australia but mostly all this sir and ma'am is an American thing it seems.

Quote from: K8 on September 20, 2009, 03:09:36 PM
I went to church this morning and received several compliments on my jacket, on my hair, on my necklace.  Everyone called me Kate and, most of the time, she.  A new college-age girl was there who is a couple inches taller than me and has a squarer jaw (but of course looks a lot cuter and more feminine than I do).  I had a long conversation with a gay man and a straight woman about the common issues of gays and TGs and how some things are tougher for gays than for heterosexual TSs.

I went to the café I usually go to for Sunday lunch.  I know the owner and almost all of the staff and have known them for years.  I sat down.  The waitress comes over and says: "What can get for you, sir?"

Sh**!

On her next pass I stopped her and said: "Look.  I'm trying very hard to become a woman.  It would help me if you didn't call me sir.  You don't have to call me anything, just don't call me sir."  She gave me her squinty-eyed smile and said: "Sure.  No problem.  I can do that for you."

She is one of my least favorite waitresses, partially because I find her very difficult to read.  Regardless, she came by and treated me more or less the same as she always does but didn't call me anything.  When she brought the check, though, she did say ma'am.

I think she said something to the hostess (who is new and I don't know), because that woman hadn't called me anything when I came in but called me "ma'am" several times after my little talk with the waitress.

Ah, the sweet vicissitudes of transition. :P  Take pleasure in the ups because there will be some downs, too.

- Kate

Well, you control the tip. If she is calling you mam, tip (noticeably) well. If not, tip accordingly  >:-)

My wife used to wait tables, and they had a older MTF that came in pretty regularly. My wife had the sense to treat her with respect, and she started asking for the section where my wife worked when she would come in. It's all about respect.