Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I choose to be out, for reasons I've explained elsewhere on this board, but will explain again. First, I have small children who have two Mom's so we're already known to be part of the "LGB" population, second because I want to educate people, and third, because I just don't really care what people think. (A little conflict between 2 and 3, but I try to find a balance).

Anyway, I have found, and not just on this forum but on others and IRL, that being out is looked down upon, and worse, there are some who are stealth (well, they think they are) who are very hostile toward those of us who are not.

What the hell is wrong with people? Seriously. It amazes me how people who work so hard to be accepted and not be judged based on who they are and decisions they make, themselves turn right around and criticize others for what they do and the decisions they make. The ultimate in hypocrisy.

On another, totally non-tg related message board, I called out a person who was disparaging transgender people, even making the "freak" and "it" references. I then find out that this person is, herself, transgender. She won't own up to it publicly, but after a PM exchange admitted she had been "born with a birth defect and had it corrected." Well, yeah! That's how I look at it too, but I don't go around acting like I know nothing about what it is to be transgender and trashing those who come up behind me. This is someone who claims on another site where she has posted as recently as 2007, that she has been fulltime since 1980. This is a person who has said some of the most vile and hateful things against me and transgender people in general that I've ever heard or read.

I just don't get it. I can understand wanting to blend in with society and not reveal your past, but I don't understand the vile vitriol and disdain for those who choose not to do the same.

As an aside.... If you're going to be "stealth," trash those who are where you came from and adamantly deny that readily available evidence outing you is you, at least do a better job of covering your tracks...  ::)

I've actually experienced the exact opposite, so I guess it depends on your perspective. It's really messed up that she would treat you like that, or that even anyone would treat anyone like that. But definitely a strange thing to do when she knows how it must feel.

*bighugs*

Anyways, I'm stealth and have heard so many nasty things said about people who are stealth. It's a difficult choice to make between the two different ways of living your life, but just because you're living your life in a different way doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong or even your enemy (which is how it sounds sometimes when people are attacking you for being stealth). The nastiness and the dismissive mean comments tend to come from both sides. I think it's just because some people think that what works for them must also work for everyone else.

It's always the same thing. People can't deal with someone who is happily living their life in the exact opposite way to them. Maybe it's some kind of insecurity about making the wrong choice? I don't know. But it definitely comes from both sides and stealth people have to put up with a lot of nonsense from out people aswell.

Luckily there are those of us from either side that don't buy into the whole "one-size-fits-all" attitude and understand that everone has a different path to follow. Judging others for doing the best they can to be happy is just rediculous, you know?  ;D

I wrote a lot more, but I was mostly rambling. I'l be quiet now. :)

I can understand why some would wish to be stealth.  But for me, at this time, it is not important to me to be stealth.

I don't wear tee shirt saying "AM Trans" or a play on the Transformer movies, but I also don't deny the fact that I am.  Like you, Celli, it is a matter of educating the masses that we are here to stay and that we are not freaks of nature.

People have their views on the world, right or wrong.  But the problem comes when they push it off as 'it is my way or the highway'.  That is the reason I am against the extreme Xtian movement against the entire GLBT movement.

I don't begrudge my 'Stealth' sisters in any way, but I am living my Transition my way.  And if that means right now I am Out and Proud, then that is my view of me.


Janet

Quote from: Birdie on September 21, 2009, 09:00:53 AM
I've actually experienced the exact opposite, so I guess it depends on your perspective. It's really messed up that she would treat you like that, or that even anyone would treat anyone like that. But definitely a strange thing to do when she knows how it must feel.

*bighugs*

Anyways, I'm stealth and have heard so many nasty things said about people who are stealth. It's a difficult choice to make between the two different ways of living your life, but just because you're living your life in a different way doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong or even your enemy (which is how it sounds sometimes when people are attacking you for being stealth). The nastiness and the dismissive mean comments tend to come from both sides. I think it's just because some people think that what works for them must also work for everyone else.

It's always the same thing. People can't deal with someone who is happily living their life in the exact opposite way to them. Maybe it's some kind of insecurity about making the wrong choice? I don't know. But it definitely comes from both sides and stealth people have to put up with a lot of nonsense from out people aswell.

Luckily there are those of us from either side that don't buy into the whole "one-size-fits-all" attitude and understand that everone has a different path to follow. Judging others for doing the best they can to be happy is just rediculous, you know?  ;D

I wrote a lot more, but I was mostly rambling. I'l be quiet now. :)

We're in complete agreement. I don't knock anyone who chooses to go stealth. I may do so myself at some point. I tend to shy away from criticizing what others choose to do with their journey. I hate hypocrisy though and tend to speak out when I see it.

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Post Merge: September 21, 2009, 09:11:21 AM

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Quote from: Janet Lynn on September 21, 2009, 09:04:34 AM
I can understand why some would wish to be stealth.  But for me, at this time, it is not important to me to be stealth.

I don't wear tee shirt saying "AM Trans" or a play on the Transformer movies, but I also don't deny the fact that I am.  Like you, Celli, it is a matter of educating the masses that we are here to stay and that we are not freaks of nature.

People have their views on the world, right or wrong.  But the problem comes when they push it off as 'it is my way or the highway'.  That is the reason I am against the extreme Xtian movement against the entire GLBT movement.

I don't begrudge my 'Stealth' sisters in any way, but I am living my Transition my way.  And if that means right now I am Out and Proud, then that is my view of me.


Janet

Again, we're in complete agreement. And don't even get me started on the whole Christian extremist thing, lol. Unfortunately I was one myself for a long time. Now just the thought sickens me.

The only thing I hear from those who claim to be stealth is the occasional shot towards those who can't be stealth.  It's like a 'hurray for me, too bad for you' attitude.  Most of the time I see this when the subject of being an activist comes up.

I do think there's little compassion from the "stealth" towards those who will never be stealth.  And there are those who disassociate themselves with the TG world with claims like "born with a birth defect and had it corrected", implying they are not TG.  Of course, implying they are not TG is ridiculous but we see it on occasion.

I think a lot of TGs put a lot of energy into denying who they are in the hopes of avoiding the negative stigma.  If you can accomplish that, great, but don't forget where you came from.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 21, 2009, 09:14:56 AM
The only thing I hear from those who claim to be stealth is the occasional shot towards those who can't be stealth.  It's like a 'hurray for me, too bad for you' attitude.  Most of the time I see this when the subject of being an activist comes up.

Family and current work situation aside (I still work for the same company I did before) I could easily go stealth. People who didn't know whom I've outed myself to or have been outed to are usually shocked when they are told. I just still don't see how people can turn their back on others who are where they were. It's a putrid, hypocritical, elitist attitude.

Quote
I do think there's little compassion from the "stealth" towards those who will never be stealth.  And there are those who disassociate themselves with the TG world with claims like "born with a birth defect and had it corrected", implying they are not TG.  Of course, implying they are not TG is ridiculous but we see it on occasion.

I think a lot of TGs put a lot of energy into denying who they are in the hopes of avoiding the negative stigma.  If you can accomplish that, great, but don't forget where you came from.

Julie[/color][/font]

YES! I have seen that time and time again, the disassociation thing. "I'm not trans, I just fixed a birth defect. Transgender people are icky." OK, they don't come right out and say the "icky" part all the time, but they may as well do so.  ::)

Quote from: ceili on September 21, 2009, 09:26:26 AM
Family and current work situation aside (I still work for the same company I did before) I could easily go stealth. People who didn't know whom I've outed myself to or have been outed to are usually shocked when they are told. I just still don't see how people can turn their back on others who are where they were. It's a putrid, hypocritical, elitist attitude.

A question?  How would you be able to "Go stealth" in the same company?  Are there not folks there who knew you before transition?

QuoteYES! I have seen that time and time again, the disassociation thing. "I'm not trans, I just fixed a birth defect. Transgender people are icky." OK, they don't come right out and say the "icky" part all the time, but they may as well do so.  ::)

There are those who do not deny their past and there are those who wish to hide it, as there are those who don't mind being trans and there are those who see trans as being the journey and simply want to be known as a woman.  Everyones view is valid and relevant to each, and while it is often discussed at length I've not seen "vile vitriol and disdain" towards anyone.

-={LR}=-

Well I have the greatest admiration for those who are out and adore the few who are gorgeous enough to turn heads and upset "the gender norms" and still choose to be out - GOOD FOR THEM! Shake 'em up baby!

I'm stealth simply because that's the way it was done way back then and I could get away with it. Now i am old enough that "coming out" wouldn't have the impact it would have 30 years ago LOL!

I don't think there's anything wrong with being stealth and agree that it's entirely up to the individual.  Personally I don't find the "closet" term particularly offensive, even if it's intended to be.  I wouldn't be "out" either.

Quote
But I do mind (get PO'ed & raise hell) when people have the audacity to tell me or (subtly imply) how I should live MY life.

I quite agree and I deplore those who seek to define inclusion or exclusion boundaries from a community based on their stealth or trans status - and I'd extend that to include backhanded comments about how someone should "STFU" and "go drink beer with their buddies" :)

 It is my full intention to go stealth after i finish this... to me it is transition for a reason im in transition not stuck there we need the activists for sure to keep us all from being drug out into the streets and shot by the anti's and i will always be the behind the scenes supporter in money and any other method i can without outing myself including this web board i think people need to consider what is best for themselfs and let the rest live their lifes as they want.
jessie

First of all, there's varying levels of stealth.  To be totally 100% stealth is almost impossible.  You'd have to transition very early, walk away from family and friends, make sure all documents form the past can never leak out and all important documents have been changed.  That's a pretty tall order.

I'm stealth in public.  That means I interact with people who don't know my past and am seen as female.  I can't say if I'm 100% successful but I can say there's is no definitive evidence I am treated any differently than any other woman.  But with family, friends, co-workers there's no way I'll ever be stealth unless I figure out how to erase their memories.  ::)

Quote from: Matilda on September 21, 2009, 06:33:48 PMThere have been instances on this very forum where people have said and/or implied that "stealth people are 'selfish', 'self-loathing', & that they should help push the GLBT rights movement along instead of 'being confined to a second closet'.  To me (and I have said this on another board), those comments have the word ENVY written all over them (not to mention that they are very offensive too).

Let's say a group of women get together to discuss the discrimination women face in today's world. On the coffee table in front of them is a Victoria's Secret catalog.  And let's say it was well known that these VS models reject any offers to get them involved in the women's movement.  And the talk turns to something like, "All they have is their looks.  If it weren't for that they would be sitting right here with us to discuss REAL issues!"  And in walks one of the models and says, "I heard that.  You're just jealous because I'm beautiful and you're not."

I think you know where I'm going here. 

Just because you are blessed doesn't mean you get a pass for taking the attitude, "I'm not getting involved".  And saying, "You envy me because I can pass and you can't" is being pretty superficial.  On the other hand, just because you're not blessed doesn't give you the right to criticize others for not getting involved.  But trying to rally ALL to come together is a positive thing as numbers do have an impact when they are larger. 

The rights gained by those who fight discrimination are enjoyed by all so one would think it's in everyone's interest to get as many people as possible to band together to fight discrimination, prejudice and ignorance.  It's just common sense.

For those who say they are stealth and take the attitude "It's not my problem because I'm stealth", don't expect to get any sympathy from those who fight the fight when you find yourself the victim of discrimination, prejudice or ignorance.  It only takes one person, one document, one stone turned to change your life.  Misinformation, ignorance and prejudice are still alive and well.  Like someone living in the witness protection program, you will always be looking over your shoulder as long as the stigma remains unchanged.  Saying I am an authentic man or woman does not make it so in the eyes of someone else who just discovered your birth gender.  And making that claim does not make you immune to the things TGs face in this world.

I have the utmost respect for those who really can't pass yet go out into the world and interact with the public daily.  That takes courage.  And to criticize them by telling them they can't pass is pretty crappy.  And those who can pass yet put their faces out there for all to see in the hopes of improving the quality of life for all TGs are my heroes.  Donna Rose comes to mind.  They risk what most of us are unwilling to risk.

For me, I don't like hiding.  I hated the closet I was in and I escaped.  Then I found myself in another closet trying to hide my male past and I hated that.  I just want to be me and not have to watch every word I say, overly concern myself about my presentation or worry about being outed.  My therapist said it is virtually impossible to transition and never once get "clocked".  And I think she's right.  Her attitude was to help her clients gain the personal strength that would enable them to handle being clocked without upsetting their lives.  That seems like a better option than spending the rest of your life trying to be stealth. 

If you identify as being stealth and choose to go it alone, I wish you all the best and hope your life goes well.  But saying you are authentic, real or whatever adjective you use to view your present gender is only how you see yourself.  You can't make anyone else see you that way.  They will take what they know of you and come to their own conclusions.  And if they know your birth gender, that will most likely factor into how they see you and part of that will depend on how they see all TGs. 

That's why I think it's important we become a cohesive unit and work towards positive change.

Julie

 

Julie Marie - great post  :)

I have to say that on trans forums generally, it surprises and disappoints me
a) How bluntly offensive SOME posters are
b) How astonishingly sensitive/aggressively-defensive SOME posters are

My two cents on the matter is this.
There's always going to be someone on either side of any decision that thinks of these things in an "us versus them" sort of a way.
For my part, I never state that my way is the only way, nor do I state that my way is better. I simply state, "this is what I plan to do" and why.
It seems, for my part, to be more common to see people telling everyone to be stealth than to see people telling other people to be out in general.
This is only based off of what limited contact I've had with other trans-people, and is quite possibly/probably an inaccurate observation if one attempts to apply it to more than what little I've seen.

Quote from: Matilda on September 22, 2009, 05:19:20 PM
And that's another thing that irks me, Julie.  When people make sweeping generalizations without knowing absolutely anything about the other person's life and say things like:

Well, I'm 100% stealth.  My family DOES know, of course, but as far as friends, acquaintances, co-workers, they don't.  I also transitioned very young and no, and I don't have any "old", or "prevous" credit., employment or college records.  Everything I have today I have accomplished as FEMALE.  Sorry to be blunt Julie, but not everyone transitions when they are middle-aged or after having led a life as a man for decades.  For the record, there are many of us who transitoned young and many years ago.

I am sorry you had to endure discrimination, but that doesn't give you the right to tell stealth people what they should do with their lives..  What to do you expect really?  that we jeopardize the lives we have for a cause?  Sorry but that's not going to happen EVER., and the sooner activists and activist wannabes get that message into their heads, the better it will be.


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi572.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss161%2Fmatilda23%2F061.gif&hash=8f2301193b0dc73bb2e3c64f938f2048ea1a0591)

Couple things,
first, if you're out to your family, and you're still 100% stealth, does that mean that you consider your family 0%?
I just have to ask, because the implication of stealth is that "no one" knows about your medical history but you, which means, if someone other than you knows, you're not 100% stealth, right?

Also, is anyone here telling you how to live your life?
People are expressing their views, their opinions, on what they personally feel about being stealth or not. No one's point at you and going "and you, you go out yourself right now young lady!"
All I see being said here is that if you aren't willing to work for something (such as acceptance and respect for all people, trans and with a trans history) then you shouldn't expect people to afford it to you.

Quote from: Matilda on September 22, 2009, 07:19:14 PM
Family doesn't count.  If that were the case, then no one would be "stealth" by that logic, right?

Not 100% anyway. Which is the point she was trying to make I believe.
There'll always be someone, somewhere, who knows.

Quote from: Matilda on September 22, 2009, 07:19:14 PMNot directly, of course.  But I prefer to be blunt and to the point instead of hiding behind insinuations.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi572.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss161%2Fmatilda23%2F061.gif&hash=8f2301193b0dc73bb2e3c64f938f2048ea1a0591)

The thing is, sometimes we read insinuations where none are intended.
I for one go out of my way to say exactly what I mean in what I write on the internet. I do this because it's impossible to read tone, body-language, and etc. "correctly" in what is written.
Reading between the lines is thus, incredibly unreliable and highly likely to backfire.

This whole topic is fairly typical blah! :(

Most, if not all TS did not have their lives handed to them on a plate similarly they didn't ask to be the way they are.  They fought throughout their transition and while many win, many seem to loose.  Those who succeed move on and for the most part live the rest of their lives as the men or women they are.  Those who don't win can often languish in despair.  Personally I would not say that those who succeeded are blessed in any way, for how could anyone say that suffering as we did/do is any kind of blessing.

To want those who have transitioned and who have moved on should stick around and fight is totally unfair and selfish, they made it, stop whining about such a transitory time of your life.  I admit I don't understand the politics of the US, but hell the freest country in the world, who elected it's first Black President should be able to enforce basic human rights.  The phrase:


come to mind.

-={LR}=-

never mind. :-\

My only worry with this kind of heated (and hated) debate its that: those that are out and feel anger at the stealth people. Will the rage or whatever they might feel made them go and out those stealth?

Quote from: Zelane on September 22, 2009, 11:13:17 PM
My only worry with this kind of heated (and hated) debate its that: those that are out and feel anger at the stealth people. Will the rage or whatever they might feel made them go and out those stealth?

I have nothing but admiration for my sisters who have established their lives as they see fit.  But I think that what many might want is to put a face to plight of the Trans community.  Discrimination in work, housing and benefits. 

I don't think that those who are stealth, should come out.  That would not be our call, it is theirs.  Just as it is for those of us who are open about having GID.  Even among those who are not out and proud, it is their call as to whether or not to stand up and face the world.

Being non-stealth has it's own drawbacks.  One will face more discrimination, jeers, and those off-color remarks.  If you are stealth, stay that way.  If you are not, stay that way.  If you wish to go stealth, go for it.  If you are out, proud and an activist, we should salute you, for you will be the ones who gives us the rights we so richly deserve.

But the hostilities must stop.  Fighting amongst ourselves will only give fuel to our opponents.

JMHO,

Janet

agreed janet

Quote from: Janet Lynn on September 22, 2009, 11:36:40 PM
But the hostilities must stop.  Fighting amongst ourselves will only give fuel to our opponents.

IMO that is the #1 problem within the trans population.

Quote from: Zelane on September 22, 2009, 11:13:17 PM
My only worry with this kind of heated (and hated) debate its that: those that are out and feel anger at the stealth people. Will the rage or whatever they might feel made them go and out those stealth?

I don't see any rage. A guilty conscious being defensive, maybe, but rage, no.  To me it looks more like the few who are compelled to do something and the many who aren't.  You can look at almost every discriminated against group in society and you will see a few pioneers leading the way and getting the issues heard by lawmakers.  The masses who will benefit usually don't join in until they feel it's safe.  Human nature, I guess.

What this thread, and others like it, does highlight is there is a real fear out there to being exposed.  CDs, TGs, TSs, it doesn't matter, almost all will fight to keep the fact they are TG hidden.  And that just screams to me how negative the TG stigma is today.  Even members of our community will argue until they are blue in the face they are not TG so as to disassociate themselves from the stigma.  And until that stigma is gone, we can expect that sad fact to remain.

Regardless of the stealthness,
We were all born trans and we will die as women who were born trans.
Not everyone has to live their life out and be an activist.
People who transition young and manage to blend tend to live in 'stealth' which is understandable
because life in stealth is smooth. And late transitioners who can't get away with it have to live 'out' so they manage their life accoring to that. It's just the way things are, its not about which one is morally right or better. We are all individuals and diverse. Everyone has their own circumstances.

I live stealth and do not interact with the local trans community other than quietly helping a few women in transition.

I don't see myself as trans but as a woman.  I don't reveal my past, not because I worry about any discrimination but because I find my life as a male so embarrassing and painful that I don't ever want to talk about it much less acknowledge that I ever lived that way.  I refer to it as my "past life".  Some people know of course; regardless, it is something I never talk about, even with them.

Sorry, I don't feel I owe the trans community.  I was active while in transition but I'm done now and feel I've paid my dues. 

None of us see ourselves as anything but women, that's why we go through so much so we can make the most of it and lead a happy life to whatever extent we can achieve. But it doesn't change the facts, we are not genetic women, we were not born with ovaries, we do not get periods or go through labour. We are women indeed and it is an embarassing situation to mention past for all stealthy women but we can't deny we are trans women, that's what brings us together to even get on this forum and reply to this topic. We can't pretend like what happened to us at birth never occured unless our families raised us as girls from a very early age, our common experience leave a big impact on our minds to last a lifetime. None may know but in the back of your mind, you always will. We are not just any women, we are women with a different past but it comes with its own baggage of issues like minor differences in genitalia (post-op), lack of reproductive system, fertility issues. We can stay away from the community, yet we always have these issues mentioned to deal with and it makes it hard for women to have long term relationships with heterosexual men and settle down. That's why it's good to not forget who we are and support each other.

One of the things that bother me the most is the implication that the only way to be "successful" is to live in stealth.
That acknowledging your past is somehow a sign of being unable to pass as your gender. Or unwilling to give up on your birth-sex.
That somehow, you're not a "true" transsexual unless you completely deny everything that ever happened while you were the wrong sex.

I have a big family, I have good friends, I have people all around me that know that I wasn't born with the right equipment, and I'm transition in a small town in a small country and this town, and this country, are my "home", not just a place I'm in, it's home.
In order for me to go completely stealth, I would have to move, cut ties with people I love, and pretend that over a quarter of a century of my life was different, or didn't exist.

From my perspective, it's asking too much.

And I resent the suggestion that I'll never be "successfully" male unless I do so.

I transitioned in a small town where everyone knew me, totally out in the open. I can certainly understand a persons' reasons for being stealth, if I hadn't cared about keeping my chosen career, I would have been very tempted to move somewhere else and start anew.

I respect everyone's right to make their own choices. What I don't like is someone else presuming to tell me how to live my life.

Z

Quote from: Zythyra on September 28, 2009, 11:27:19 AMI respect everyone's right to make their own choices. What I don't like is someone else presuming to tell me how to live my life.

well said.

Quote from: Miniar on September 28, 2009, 11:07:21 AM
One of the things that bother me the most is the implication that the only way to be "successful" is to live in stealth.
That acknowledging your past is somehow a sign of being unable to pass as your gender. Or unwilling to give up on your birth-sex.
That somehow, you're not a "true" transsexual unless you completely deny everything that ever happened while you were the wrong sex.

I have a big family, I have good friends, I have people all around me that know that I wasn't born with the right equipment, and I'm transition in a small town in a small country and this town, and this country, are my "home", not just a place I'm in, it's home.
In order for me to go completely stealth, I would have to move, cut ties with people I love, and pretend that over a quarter of a century of my life was different, or didn't exist.

From my perspective, it's asking too much.

And I resent the suggestion that I'll never be "successfully" male unless I do so.

I don't think that anyone has said that in order to be successful one has to be stealth, and if anyone did they would be talking out their butts.  Stealth is very near impossible as there seems to always be a friend of a friend of a friend who comes back to haunt you.  Similar to Zythyra case, I transitioned in a small city, in the workplace so there was no way in hell that I could be stealth, but I'm very successful, hold a full time job as a safety manager that puts me daily contact with clients who knew me in the before times, I have a large circle of friends, belong to a large MC Club, and I'm engaged to be married to a most wonderful man.  Yep I'm successful, but I ain't stealth.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on September 28, 2009, 12:14:55 PM
I don't think that anyone has said that in order to be successful one has to be stealth, and if anyone did they would be talking out their butts.  Stealth is very near impossible as there seems to always be a friend of a friend of a friend who comes back to haunt you.  Similar to Zythyra case, I transitioned in a small city, in the workplace so there was no way in hell that I could be stealth, but I'm very successful, hold a full time job as a safety manager that puts me daily contact with clients who knew me in the before times, I have a large circle of friends, belong to a large MC Club, and I'm engaged to be married to a most wonderful man.  Yep I'm successful, but I ain't stealth.

-={LR}=-

And yet, I see it all the time. The suggestion that stealth = success.

Quote from: Miniar on September 28, 2009, 12:51:50 PM
And yet, I see it all the time. The suggestion that stealth = success.

Ya kinda strange, not sure why they think that, ??? but I challenge anyone to tell me I'm not successful because I'm not stealth.

If stealth = success then conversely being out = failure, and that just doesn't add up.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on September 28, 2009, 03:32:51 PM
Ya kinda strange, not sure why they think that, ??? but I challenge anyone to tell me I'm not successful because I'm not stealth.

If stealth = success then conversely being out = failure, and that just doesn't add up.

-={LR}=-

Which would be why I think it's annoying at the very best.

I think there's been a lot of misunderstanding here.  While it would be great for each and every TG in the world to come out and proudly be who they are and eventually end the negative stigma, I realize that just ain't gonna happen.  It's like standing at the edge of chilly waters with a bunch of friends and suggesting we all go in for a dip.  "You go first and I'll jump in after you."  Yeah, sure!  Unless you feel compelled to jump in, you're not going to be the first.

But that doesn't mean anyone is trying to tell anyone else how to live their life or that it's wrong to try to be stealth.  It's your life, live it as you wish.  What I do see in people trying to understand the aversion some have to the TG population in general.  Typically you see that coming from those who claim to be stealth.

No matter how you slice it, total, 100%, "no one knows my history and no one could ever guess" stealth is almost impossible and therefore it is in everyone's interest to do something to eliminate the negative stigma.  You don't have to be an activist but it helps not to dissociate yourself from the community. 

In some countries, if you aren't fluent in their language you will experience discrimination.  You may know the language perfectly but there's little tells that give it away you are not native.  It's the same with gender.  It just seems to me it's a lot easier to erase the negativity than to try to pass yourself off as native.

Yes, our brain gender is who we are but that does not change what our birth gender is and never will.  So why fight it?  Why deny it? (to yourself)  I just don't get it.  It seems there's a lot of wasted energy trying to change something that cannot be changed.

Julie

Quote from: ceili on September 21, 2009, 08:03:57 AM
I choose to be out, for reasons I've explained elsewhere on this board, but will explain again. First, I have small children who have two Mom's so we're already known to be part of the "LGB" population, second because I want to educate people, and third, because I just don't really care what people think. (A little conflict between 2 and 3, but I try to find a balance).

Anyway, I have found, and not just on this forum but on others and IRL, that being out is looked down upon, and worse, there are some who are stealth (well, they think they are) who are very hostile toward those of us who are not.

What the hell is wrong with people? Seriously. It amazes me how people who work so hard to be accepted and not be judged based on who they are and decisions they make, themselves turn right around and criticize others for what they do and the decisions they make. The ultimate in hypocrisy.

On another, totally non-tg related message board, I called out a person who was disparaging transgender people, even making the "freak" and "it" references. I then find out that this person is, herself, transgender. She won't own up to it publicly, but after a PM exchange admitted she had been "born with a birth defect and had it corrected." Well, yeah! That's how I look at it too, but I don't go around acting like I know nothing about what it is to be transgender and trashing those who come up behind me. This is someone who claims on another site where she has posted as recently as 2007, that she has been fulltime since 1980. This is a person who has said some of the most vile and hateful things against me and transgender people in general that I've ever heard or read.

I just don't get it. I can understand wanting to blend in with society and not reveal your past, but I don't understand the vile vitriol and disdain for those who choose not to do the same.

As an aside.... If you're going to be "stealth," trash those who are where you came from and adamantly deny that readily available evidence outing you is you, at least do a better job of covering your tracks...  ::)

First off you should realize there are alot of folks who transition who do not identify with, nor do they want any part of the word transgender.  The disparaging comments...are troubling.  But my advice is to never call somebody who transitioned transgender, unless they identify that way themselves.  I AM NOT transgender.  I transitioned, and I was born intersex.  There is a rightful rebellion over the term transgender.  I am on the side of either seperating it from people who have (or plan too) transition, ie transsexuals and intersex transitioners from the term transgender and the far to broad umbrella associations.  The term has become too broad, including my medical condition in the same boat as people who identify with thier assigned birth sex..is problematic.  I am not transgender, and you should not call anybody transgender if they transitioned, unless they identify as such.  But if they don't identify with the term, don't identify them with the term transgender.  Transgender is a political term, and one has to chose whether they want to identify with it or not, whether or not they had transitioned.  With that being said...if one transitions, that does not automatically make them transgender.  You even saying the person was transgender when they did not identify as transgender, but instead they are a woman with a birth defect that needed to be corrected, bothers me just as much as the crap the other person said.  There was a problem on both of your parts.

Transgender does not equal Transsexual automatically.  If you are finding hostility it should not be surprising, and they have every right to be hostile towards the umbrella terminology and associations.  One has every right not to be wanted to be associated with CD, Drag performers, and TV if they have fully medically transitioned. 

Quote from: Miniar on September 28, 2009, 05:17:33 PM
Which would be why I think it's annoying at the very best.

At the very least :D

-={LR}=-

Quote from: sweetstars on September 29, 2009, 09:01:16 AM
Transgender does not equal Transsexual automatically.  If you are finding hostility it should not be surprising, and they have every right to be hostile towards the umbrella terminology and associations.  One has every right not to be wanted to be associated with CD, Drag performers, and TV if they have fully medically transitioned.

This is a very good point.  I feel no kinship with CDs, drag artists, and TVs.  I respect their right to live the way they do but I don't want to be lumped with them in the gender discussion.

Other posters have mentioned the stigma of being trans.  I don't think all of us being out and proud is going to change a deeply held tribal norm--ie, the separateness of gender.  What might reduce the stigma somewhat is removing TS from the DSM and making it a legitimate medical condition. 

The brain is the seat of being.  I have a female brain, therefore, I am female.  End of subject.  I really could care less what my DNA says.

Healthy view?  I don't know for certain but that is the world view I live with.

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 28, 2009, 05:52:09 PM
It's like standing at the edge of chilly waters with a bunch of friends and suggesting we all go in for a dip.  "You go first and I'll jump in after you."  Yeah, sure!  Unless you feel compelled to jump in, you're not going to be the first.

What worries me about that if that someone can just push you onto the water (thus outing you) even if you dont want.


What I dont understand if those persons who try to say their path its the only one. What works for you might not work for others. But I believe different paths, different point of views and idea should be lay down for the newcomers to see and for them to take a path they feel comfortable with.

Or just for others to realize there are option about the road that is transition and that everyone of them its valid because its your life. I mean I cant say the life of an out and proud person isnt valid because even if I was like that person (out and proud) Im not living that person's life. The same with being stealth. Its not my life its yours.

Dont let others dictate what you should do. Isnt it funny? Thats a big part of why I transitioned. To stop listening to the people in my family telling me what gender and social role I was when they were just selfish in their own. But my own selfishness that its transition because I was looking my happiness was a big no-no.

Quote from: DawnL on September 29, 2009, 12:34:34 PMWhat might reduce the stigma somewhat is removing TS from the DSM and making it a legitimate medical condition.

Amen sister!  TS has to be removed from the DSM and not be lumped in with the paraphilias (pedophilia, masochism, sadism, etc).  Having a book that is recognized by the APA stating our condition is a paraphilia or sexual disorder hurts us tremendously.

For the record:
Paraphilias all have in common distressing and repetitive sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors.  These fantasies, urges, or behaviors must occur for a significant period of time and must interfere with either satisfactory sexual relations or everyday functioning if the diagnosis is to be made.  There is also a sense of distress within these individuals.  In other words, they typically recognize the symptoms as negatively impacting their life but feel as if they are unable to control them.

I don't think many of us want that defining who we are.

Julie

My goal after GRS was to live life as stealthy as possible without the burden of being trans & I'm doing it.  I couldn't be happier.  I spent 25 years of my life as trans.  I wasted 25 years as trans when I could've been a happy girl.  I deserve to live a normal life as a woman. You'll know what I mean by 'normal' so don't make me explain it to you.  I respect those peeps that fight for equal rights but I'm not one of them.  Maybe it's selfish on my part but it's time to take care of me now.  I don't understand all this hullabaloo.  Stealth & being out are choices you make.  You do what you wanna do with your life.  Let me do what I wanna do with mine.

QuoteSorry if it's overly academic, the class and teacher were geared towards that style of writing so it came out as it did. I wrote this paper the morning it was due so there's an abundance of grammatical errors; ignore them if you can... (warning: it's really long)

I read it.  I can see that umbrella terms do have a tendency capture traits or characteristics that form the "lowest common denominator" of a population subset and indeed that's one reason why TV and CD would form part of "transgender".  Leaving aside the fetishistic, I've noticed from introductions and histories here that it's not uncommon for those who subsequently transition to have gone through a TV or CD stage, at least as a transient coping mechanism for dysphoria.

I also can see some truth in the idea that some would embrace the heteronormative dominant culture and how they would build a psychological "firewall" to disidentify with their minority past.

All that said, I don't think this is a particular problem that needs to be solved - this sort of variance will always exist.  Those who wish to "disidentify" should be allowed to do so.

The only problem, if there is a problem at all, seems to be over terminology.  Those that disidentify reject being categorised with those that don't, whereas the latter rail against the perceived "members-only-club" of the former.

The irony is that threads like this are replete with "nobody can tell me how to live" comments yet nobody is saying any such thing.  It's just an arbitrary labelling argument and from my cis-perspective on the sidelines, it's so illusory as to be verging on the laughable.

I live stealth by choice.  I think most of us transition to live our lives as the women or men we are and not as trans. I know many girls that have moved far away from the cities where they were born to live their lives in stealth after surgery.  Who can blame them? who can blame us?  Like Pia said, after many years in the wrong sex, the last thing we need is activists telling us what to do after we transition.  I don't feel I owe anything to anybody either. so get over it!

There was a time a few years back when "stealth" was just a dream.  I wasn't "stealth" material if you know what I mean.  But all that changed in an instant.  I was able to move to a different country after I had facial feminization surgery.  I got a marvelous job contract & the opportunity to start my life from scratch without all this trans crap that was asphyxiating me.  GRS has opened up new doors for me too.  I can now marry my long time BF & that's something I never thought it could happen. 

Over here I'm only known as a woman not as that "bloke that changed his sex".  People DO treat you different when they only know/perceive you as a woman as opposed to a trans woman.  Whoever says otherwise is deluding themselves or hasn't experienced what I've experienced. I've been on both sides of the fence.  I know.  I can tell the difference.  I'd be the dumbest person on the planet if I were to compromise what I've got for a reason, any reason.

Quote from: Leslie on October 01, 2009, 04:10:39 AM

Over here I'm only known as a woman not as that "bloke that changed his sex".  People DO treat you different when they only know/perceive you as a woman as opposed to a trans woman.  Whoever says otherwise is deluding themselves or hasn't experienced what I've experienced. I've been on both sides of the fence.  I know.  I can tell the difference.  I'd be the dumbest person on the planet if I were to compromise what I've got for a reason, any reason.

Some do, but so what?  Given enough time they come around.  At least from my experience.  Once they get to know you , then they get to know you, and everyone's cool.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on October 01, 2009, 04:39:17 AM
Some do, but so what?  Given enough time they come around.  At least from my experience.  Once they get to know you , then they get to know you, and everyone's cool.

...In Candyland.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on October 01, 2009, 04:39:17 AM
Some do, but so what?  Given enough time they come around.  At least from my experience.  Once they get to know you , then they get to know you, and everyone's cool.

That's been my experience as well.

-={LR}=-

I will say, those I am out to get it.  I am not completely stealth, my boyfriend does know, as well as some close friends.  I will say, being intersex did change the dynamic during transition and after transition.  Because my life experiences are so different, I really can't relate to other transsexuals, especially older transsexuals.  Being intersex shifted the dynamic significantly, I am not saying folks with IS who transition have it easier, I am saying it is very different experience socially. 

When there's a physical component present, especially one that is medically accepted, people in general will give you a pass because "you couldn't help it".  But if the problem is seen as psychological, the response from the masses often is "fix it yourself so we don't have to deal with it".  In other words, it's all in your head. 

People are afraid of things they can't see.

Julie

Quote from: Dee_pntx on October 01, 2009, 05:22:41 PM
Not where I live sweety.  I live in Bigotville.  People here are either KKK, nazis, religious zealots or republicans.  No real difference between any of them.  Everyone here hates minorities of all types.  Especially MY type.

Yeah.  I want out of here badly.

Dee hon I hope you get to move out of that place, it sounds really bad. :-\

For my part I'm moving to the complete other side of the planet, a new country, a new life. When I'm there now I seem to pull it off just fine and I've had no problems, so I'm either "stealth" or nobody really cares. It does seem strange to me that no one even notices, but either way that's how I wish it to be.

To address the subject of this thread, the hostility, when it exists at all, seems to go both ways. It's probably a subject unique to our condition and I'm sure we care a lot more about it than anyone else does. To me transitioning is a temporary journey, not a permanent lifestyle. I think most of us just want to be left to live our lives in peace, and choose for ourselves which battles we want to face.

Quote from: Dee_pntx on October 01, 2009, 05:22:41 PM
Not where I live sweety.  I live in Bigotville.  People here are either KKK, nazis, religious zealots or republicans.  No real difference between any of them.  Everyone here hates minorities of all types.  Especially MY type.

Yeah.  I want out of here badly.

I live in the Ozarks.  We've got all of that.  More KKK than Nazis though.

ozarks... seriously theirs people there thats in the sticks lol i was stationed at fort lenardwood for a while theres a reason they call it fort lost in the woods hehe
jessica

Quote from: DawnL on September 29, 2009, 12:34:34 PM
The brain is the seat of being.  I have a female brain, therefore, I am female.  End of subject.  I really could care less what my DNA says.

Healthy view?  I don't know for certain but that is the world view I live with.

Very well said.  Whilst it's true that some peeps want to be trans for good even after GRS, most of us just want to get on with our lives & leave the past behind not dwell on it & live our realities as the women we are.  I think this is why so many of us go stealth, we don't want anything to do with trans stuff.  We've found a comfort zone where we're happy without being reminded that  "we don't have ovaries or a uterus, we aren't "real" women" or we are less than a woman".

I swear to God that it's only on forums like this where you hear that kind of tripe.  "no you can never be a real women, you've got no uterus or your DNA is male, your vagina isn't real".  No wonder peeps want to be gone from places like this & live in stealth.  At least outside from here, nobody questions my being a woman & I don't have to deal with bigots.

Quote from: Pia on October 02, 2009, 03:11:31 PMI swear to God that it's only on forums like this where you hear that kind of tripe.  "no you can never be a real women, you've got no uterus or your DNA is male, your vagina isn't real".  No wonder peeps want to be gone from places like this & live in stealth.  At least outside from here, nobody questions my being a woman & I don't have to deal with bigots.

Right on Sister!

Sometimes..... in fact often.....I read various forums and just despair  :( 

I hate arguing with people but the tone of that last paragraph is pretty snappy and demands some sort of answer.

Quote from: PiaWhilst it's true that some peeps want to be trans for good even after GRS

I'm pretty sure that practically every trans-person would be stealth if it were possible for them.  I certainly would and I don't know any other transwoman who wouldn't. Trans-people who do pass well yet are Out have come to the realisation that nothing changes without a fight and that in order to fight more effectively, they need to be visible. The struggles of such people is what has created the possibility to be stealth in the first place.

QuoteI swear to God that it's only on forums like this where you hear that kind of tripe.  "no you can never be a real women, you've got no uterus or your DNA is male, your vagina isn't real".  No wonder peeps want to be gone from places like this & live in stealth.

Hmmm....... well ok, but tell me that again when somebody or some loose-end Outs you and your SO dumps you as has happened to countless others   :-\
Go and screw some neanderthal, then tell him you're trans and see what happens hun  :-\
Of course you won't hear that talk about whether you're a "real woman" or not - you're stealth
When you read a forum such as this, you're reading the postings of other people who already Know  - and they are invariably citing the attitude of the general public once they too find out.  If you've lost touch with the undeniable realities of our collective situation, go and read the court reports of all the murdered, beaten and persecuted trans-women.

- if you are succeeding in living Stealth then go sister, more power to you, and I do genuinely mean that from the bottom of my heart. 
But your shielding from "that kind of tripe" only lasts as long as your stealth does.

I think the original point of this thread was to point out the ->-bleeped-<-ty attitude of some Stealth people towards those who are still in transition or who can never Pass well enough to be stealth.

QuoteI think this is why so many of us go stealth, we don't want anything to do with trans stuff.

.....which is fine, as long as a person didn't use such forums for information, advice and support before successfully transitioning and then afterwards developing said ->-bleeped-<-ty attitude.

Quote.....want to get on with our lives & leave the past behind not dwell on it & live our realities as the women we are........ we don't want anything to do with trans stuff. We've found a comfort zone where we're happy without being reminded .........No wonder peeps want to be gone from places like this & live in stealth.  At least outside from here, nobody questions my being a woman & I don't have to deal with bigots.

OK, that's clear enough.
- Just remind me again why you're here on a trans forum?

I'm not not quite sure if I want to jump into this boiling cauldron. Ah, what the heck! Why not.

I can understand why some here want to stay and live in stealth. The matter of whether or not you're 100% or 50% makes no difference to me and I applaud you for having the courage and wherewithal to make it happen. Truly, I do. If you do not wish to be a part of activism toward better social relations and ending discrimination ie, firings, homelessness, ostracization, harassment, beatings and in the extreme, murders of members of the transgender community, so be it. Not every one of us has the desire to move fences; I understand that, too. Not all of the citizen's of this great land are willing to go to war to protect our way of life. Still, the rights that soldiers protect with their lives are not held away from the rest of us because we didn't fight for them. It's just the way of life and culture in this country.

However, what bothers me and what I just cannot understand is why there is an element of those of us who are fully transitioned and, I guess stealth; that they have a visceral dislike and will say the most hateful things to discredit and deny the entire TG community. I've stayed mostly quiet on this issue for the time I've been here. But, I recently ran into a group of these folk in a comment section of an article written against support for transgender "special rights", as they portray them to be. These people spew the most venomous hatred I've yet witnessed against any type of recognition for transgender equality. They actually give me the feeling that they hate anything TG more than any of the extreme right wingers do!

Look, if you don't want to be included as being trangender or any part of the community that is transgender, well, then good for you. It's your choice. But, for crying out loud, stop! Stop the hatred and the hissyfits toward those of us that do wish to be included in that "umbrella" and let us fight our battle on just one front, not two! Seriously, I know I am transexual. I don't have a doubt about that. But, I also know my roots. And they run through the transgender community as a whole. As was stated by another poster here, something to the effect, "you know where you came from". I do know from whence I came and, I don't feel the need to go stealth. It's my choice. Like some others, I could have, yet, I didn't. Does that nullify me as a "true" transexual? Does that make me non-valid as a person? This is the perception that transgender people have when they are talked down to by this element of transexual people.

Not all of us really know what's going on for sure when we have these odd feelings of who we really are, with no way to explain them as a youth or even as an adult. Surely you can remember how frightening it was when you didn't know who to talk to or where to turn for help in this 'journey of a lifetime'. And, if your situation was like mine, the transgender community was there to help get you and I through it.  They are the last people on Earth, I would want to reject once I finish this journey. Transgender people need love too! Let's give 'em a little!

And, when we win this battle for equality, and we will win, I, for one will say that it includes all of us. LGBTIQ etc., and even those of us who are stealth (just in case you should, at some point, need those protections).


Dawn

Quote from: Dee_pntx on October 02, 2009, 06:36:56 AM
An old friend gets DRUNK as hell every day and talks BS about me. He outed me to his wife's son who just got out of prison yesterday. Right off her son started sending me very hateful text messages.

When he was laying in ICU in the prison hospital dying from his suicide attempt  and his mother was falling apart, **** I **** was the ONLY ONE to comfort her.  Her husband sat there like a stumble bum, still in a haze from his binge the night before.

And when she had to flee from her husband because he was hateful and abusive to her, I am the only person to open their door and take her in, feed her, comfort her, support her. No one else would. But I did. I went out of my way to assist her, my best friend in all the world.

And now her convict son is out of prison and sending mean and hateful messages to me, the only one to HELP his mother in her times of need.

Her drunken husband is trying hard to out me, to get me hurt or killed now. I never did anything to him. We had been friends for 30 years.

No more.

So yeah, I want to move far, far away and start a new life of deep stealth, where no one knows me at all.

I can do it, I "pass" all the way, voice even on the phone now. Looks, not pretty but always treated the same as any other woman. No questions.
I don't even try anymore, I just do my thing and I'm just another plain, homely woman.

I wanted to move to Green Bay with my boyfriend but he's wishy-washy and won't make a decision or even drop the L word on me.

I just want to go very, very far away from here.
I want the person I pretended to be to just f**king die and go away forever.

Those issues are not per se trans issues though.  That's to do with the kind of people you spend your time with.  Someone who gets drunk and then puts you in unsafe situations is not your friend and should not have your phone number.  You probably should move, not for anything to do with being trans, but just because it sounds like your situation is unhealthy for anyone.

---

Post Merge: October 02, 2009, 09:18:22 PM

---

Quote from: Dawn D. on October 02, 2009, 07:02:01 PM
I'm not not quite sure if I want to jump into this boiling cauldron. Ah, what the heck! Why not.

I can understand why some here want to stay and live in stealth. The matter of whether or not you're 100% or 50% makes no difference to me and I applaud you for having the courage and wherewithal to make it happen. Truly, I do. If you do not wish to be a part of activism toward better social relations and ending discrimination ie, firings, homelessness, ostracization, harassment, beatings and in the extreme, murders of members of the transgender community, so be it. Not every one of us has the desire to move fences; I understand that, too. Not all of the citizen's of this great land are willing to go to war to protect our way of life. Still, the rights that soldiers protect with their lives are not held away from the rest of us because we didn't fight for them. It's just the way of life and culture in this country.

However, what bothers me and what I just cannot understand is why there is an element of those of us who are fully transitioned and, I guess stealth; that they have a visceral dislike and will say the most hateful things to discredit and deny the entire TG community. I've stayed mostly quiet on this issue for the time I've been here. But, I recently ran into a group of these folk in a comment section of an article written against support for transgender "special rights", as they portray them to be. These people spew the most venomous hatred I've yet witnessed against any type of recognition for transgender equality. They actually give me the feeling that they hate anything TG more than any of the extreme right wingers do!

Look, if you don't want to be included as being trangender or any part of the community that is transgender, well, then good for you. It's your choice. But, for crying out loud, stop! Stop the hatred and the hissyfits toward those of us that do wish to be included in that "umbrella" and let us fight our battle on just one front, not two! Seriously, I know I am transexual. I don't have a doubt about that. But, I also know my roots. And they run through the transgender community as a whole. As was stated by another poster here, something to the effect, "you know where you came from". I do know from whence I came and, I don't feel the need to go stealth. It's my choice. Like some others, I could have, yet, I didn't. Does that nullify me as a "true" transexual? Does that make me non-valid as a person? This is the perception that transgender people have when they are talked down to by this element of transexual people.

Not all of us really know what's going on for sure when we have these odd feelings of who we really are, with no way to explain them as a youth or even as an adult. Surely you can remember how frightening it was when you didn't know who to talk to or where to turn for help in this 'journey of a lifetime'. And, if your situation was like mine, the transgender community was there to help get you and I through it.  They are the last people on Earth, I would want to reject once I finish this journey. Transgender people need love too! Let's give 'em a little!

And, when we win this battle for equality, and we will win, I, for one will say that it includes all of us. LGBTIQ etc., and even those of us who are stealth (just in case you should, at some point, need those protections).


Dawn

Great post.  It reminds me of this documentary HBO is doing that starts next week that is about all of those right wing nut job congressmen who spew so much hate speech against the LGBT community, even though they are in fact gay themselves it turns out. 

It's so disapointing.  It's understandable to the degree that they are insecure about themselves, but it would be nice if they could at least not say anything, rather than say something mean.

Quote from: SteffiOut have come to the realisation that nothing changes without a fight and that in order to fight more effectively, they need to be visible. The struggles of such people is what has created the possibility to be stealth in the first place.

First let me say that I'm not from the US & I'm not very familiar with your trans politics there.  But if I remember what I've read about the US trans history correctly, the GLB movement added the T for transgender in the early 90's.  Before 1990, peeps that transitioned were already living their lives in stealth.  Transsexuality has been a recognised medical condition for many years, even in my native country, a post-operational transsexual's been able to change her certificate of birth & all documentation papers after GRS for many years now.  This isn't something new.  It's been like that even before the GLB added the T to their movement, so no the struggles of the recent activists didn't create the possibility to be stealth in the first place as you say.

Quote from: Steffi
Go and screw some neanderthal, then tell him you're trans and see what happens hun 

You shouldn't be screwing some neanderthal or some hillbilly or some redneck if you're pre-operational in the first place.  If you wanna screw him, you should be honest with him & tell him what you've got between your legs before you even go out with him.  Don't put yourself at risk if you know the bloke's some neanderthal ->-bleeped-<-.

Quote from: Steffiwhich is fine, as long as a person didn't use such forums for information, advice and support before successfully transitioning and then afterwards developing said ->-bleeped-<-ty attitude.

I transitioned alone in a small homophobic country.  We don't have a trans community here.  The closest to that is the gay movement but their interests are different so many girls transition on their own without forums, advice or support from trans sites like this.  Support comes from family if they don't kick you the hell out of the house first.  Clinicians are there only if you can afford them so most of us are alone, we transition alone & sometimes we don't even have the support of our folks.

Quote from: Steffi, that's clear enough.
- Just remind me again why you're here on a trans forum?

I come here to get advice & give advice as a post-operational girl.  Stuff that doesn't pertain to people that havent fully transitioned in the first place.  I feel a kind of kinship with other post-operational girls. We've been thru the same.  We share the same experiences & I can get info on post-operational issues.

Quote from: Dawn D.I just cannot understand is why there is an element of those of us who are fully transitioned and, I guess stealth; that they have a visceral dislike and will say the most hateful things to discredit and deny the entire TG community.

Same thing happens with some vile trans activists that throw vitriol & profanities to all the girls that have fully transitioned.  If somebody messes with you, what do you do?  turn the other cheek, smile & say thank you or defend yourself?  I defend myself & I think that's what other peeps do.

has it occured to you that If the stealthy girls are "vicious" maybe it is because they're tired of being messed up with?  I don't have anything against the commnunity as a whole.  There are many marvelous peeps that are just trying to live in peace.  I have a problem with bigoted bitches & ->-bleeped-<-s that alwyas tell me that "I don't have ovaries or womb, I've got male DNA & I'm not real."

Quote from: Dawn D. on October 02, 2009, 07:02:01 PMHowever, what bothers me and what I just cannot understand is why there is an element of those of us who are fully transitioned and, I guess stealth; that they have a visceral dislike and will say the most hateful things to discredit and deny the entire TG community. I've stayed mostly quiet on this issue for the time I've been here. But, I recently ran into a group of these folk in a comment section of an article written against support for transgender "special rights", as they portray them to be. These people spew the most venomous hatred I've yet witnessed against any type of recognition for transgender equality. They actually give me the feeling that they hate anything TG more than any of the extreme right wingers do!

I'll take a shot at this...

I think many of these people you talk about need to disassociate themselves from the trans community in order to feel safe from prejudice and discrimination.  Of course, there is no guarantee stealth will forever be effective but since it has worked thus far it should work forever.  I also think many stealthers (those who claim to be totally stealth) are most likely young.  They haven't experienced much of what this big bad world can offer so they still wear rose colored glasses.  It's like that old saying, "Let the teenagers run the world while they still know everything."  ;)

When I read some replies here I wonder about the interpretations.  I don't see anyone telling anyone else how to run their lives or that they can never be a woman, etc.  What I do see is hypersensitivity and misinterpretation. 

There are countless stories of people from our community being outed, being discriminated against, losing their jobs and most frightening, being beaten or killed.  To take the attitude you will forever avoid any of this if you disassociate yourself from "trans people" is wishful thinking.  Record keeping is better than it ever was.  Some states in the US will not allow a gender change on your BC.  Family or friends who do know can turn on you.  And the list goes on.  Then one day you find yourself a victim and realize what everyone was saying was true.

It doesn't matter to me who wants to be an activist or who wants nothing to do with that.  I have my life pretty much together and I can get along just fine with the way things are now.  I'm active, I pass well enough and I am financially secure.  I even have health insurance coverage until I die.  I don't need anything to change for TGs.  But that doesn't mean I'm willing to sit on my butt and watch the world go by.  The younger you are the more involved you should be in making this world a better place for TGs for my life to be acceptable. 

But what today's youth enjoys, including support for early transitioning, is there because people didn't sit on their duffs.  They fought and they sacrificed and for that we should be thankful, not alienating.

Julie

OK Pia...... thanks for your calm and measured response.  :)
I myself am actually in the UK

Quote from: PiaYou shouldn't be screwing some neanderthal or some hillbilly or some redneck if you're pre-operational in the first place.  If you wanna screw him, you should be honest with him & tell him what you've got between your legs before you even go out with him.  Don't put yourself at risk if you know the bloke's some neanderthal ->-bleeped-<-.

I was actually referring to post-ops such as possibly yourself because straight guys sometimes freak out quite badly when they discover that they have been sleeping with someone who was born male.   :-\
- clearly, any pre-op would need to fess up well before any intimacy occurs at all.

Quote from: PiaI have a problem with bigoted bitches & ->-bleeped-<-s that always tell me that "I don't have ovaries or womb, I've got male DNA, I'm not real."

Well that's understandable and would piss anyone off.
I haven't personally ever seen that type of post on any trans forum EXCEPT where somebody was playing Devil's Advocate.

Julie & DawnD - good posts

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 02, 2009, 11:44:40 PMI think many of these people you talk about need to disassociate themselves from the trans community in order to feel safe from prejudice and discrimination.  Of course, there is no guarantee stealth will forever be effective but since it has worked thus far it should work forever.  I also think many stealthers (those who claim to be totally stealth) are most likely young.  They haven't experienced much of what this big bad world can offer so they still wear rose colored glasses.  It's like that old saying, "Let the teenagers run the world while they still know everything."

I transitioned young (24) and have also been around for a LONG time now (age 60) and seen a LOT of changes. I never had "rose coloured glasses" because, back then, I had no idea what to expect.

"Stealth" was the norm in 1974 (actually, there wasn't even a term for it) and being "passable" was a prerequisite for surgery. One was just expected to go off and integrate into womanhood and live a normal life - that's what it was all about and no respectable doctor would perform surgery on someone he doubted would be able to do just that. I never met a TS who wasn't obviously and easily "just a girl".

Quite frankly, through the 1970's and into the 80's, despite the rarity of the condition, it just wasn't "that big a deal", probably because the few who had 'transitioned' and had surgery were "just a girl" in society's eyes. A few months after surgery I was outed at my new employment and aside from the boys snickering in the back room, the general attitude was "That must have been horrible for you. Where do you want to go for lunch?" and that was the end of it. People grasped the idea of "a girl in a deformed body" and that was that.

Somewhere along the line, while I was off living a mundane and normal life, T became part of GLBT and when I came back to the community online, the world was altogether different. "Transsexual" now referred to anyone who wanted to chop up their private bits and "become a woman", some lamented the loss of a marriage, alienation from children, hanging on to "male privilege", and so forth. Huh???? No wonder John Q. Public is confused when trans-this and trans-that are all smeared together in a gender stew!

(The following is a personal opinion and is not intended to reflect on anyone else though I know some people will feel the need to "justify themselves". If you feel that way, look inside for WHY.)

If a person is "born with a female brain", you ARE a girl and you can't hide it no matter how bad the situation - it leaks out here and there and everybody from childhood onward is aware of it - you were probably the last one to figure it out. If you are a girl in a deformed body, doing something about that deformity and living true to yourself becomes a MAJOR priority around puberty as your ability to "pass" as your presumed birth sex diminishes. Very few untreated transsexuals survived beyond 25 prior to the 1970's. If treated, the vast majority went on to live relatively normal lives and were pretty much indistinguishable from the rest of womankind. (Some 20 years after SRS a rumour of my medical history went through my community. The rumour was dismissed as implausible.)

From what I see, the inclusion of T in GLBT has 'opened the door' for more people to transition and have surgery but it has also completely overshadowed the case of those Type VI transsexuals who personified Dr. Benjamin's words "a complete psycho-sexual inversion" and made it difficult (if not impossible) for them to live a normal life.

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 02, 2009, 11:44:40 PM

I think many of these people you talk about need to disassociate themselves from the trans community in order to feel safe from prejudice and discrimination.  Of course, there is no guarantee stealth will forever be effective but since it has worked thus far it should work forever.  I also think many stealthers (those who claim to be totally stealth) are most likely young.  They haven't experienced much of what this big bad world can offer so they still wear rose colored glasses.  It's like that old saying, "Let the teenagers run the world while they still know everything."  ;)
Julie

With all due respect, what makes you think that we haven't experienced much of what this big bad world can offer & that we still wear rose coloured glasses?.  I apologise if I've inadvertently misunderstood your post, but are you suggesting that because we transitioned young (I transitioned at 25 myself & I'm in my early thirties now) we haven't experienced bigotry or discrimination?  You see, I believe this is the reason why so many people get upset, when baseless assumptions are made, or blanket statements are thrown out in the open without any consideration of the feelings or experiences of others.

It's only in the recent years that I've been able to start a fresh brand new life in a different country without the burden & pain of my past & I intend to keep it that way.  But I've endured discrimination.  I was demoted & eventually terminated by my former employer for being transsexual.  I've been harassed, abused, denied basic human rights by people in my country of birth for the same reason.  The difference is that I don't come here to cry about my personal matters or to demand sympathy.  My personal affairs are mine alone & I'm a very private person to say the least.

Leslie,

This is an unwinnable argument. You have your opinion along with a number of others who see it your way and others have a different point of view. I don't believe Julie was suggesting that you have those pretty rose colored glasses on or for that matter anyone in here. Rather, the statement is a generalization. One that from my point of view believe to be accurate. What I think is more important (my opinion) is the idea that misinterpretation of a thought or phrase leads to animosity and resentment. Along with that is the premise that in this "cause" for equalitythere are four distinct groups "we' collectively can be placed in:

1.)Those that "get it" and want to do something about it.

2.)Those that "get it", support it and wish to remain silent.

3.)Those that "get it" and want nothing to do with it.

4.)And, then there are those that "don't get it" at all. These are the people that are vile, arrogant, repressive, resentful and angry. They don't, for what ever reason they have, believe there is a connection between themselves and the struggles that everyone in TG'dom might experience. These are the "Stealth Lives" that are in reference here.

I feel Julie is right, when she says "these people you talk about need to dissociate themselves from the trans community in order to feel safe from prejudice and discrimination." This is the fourth group. That's is their choice. Right, wrong or other! Yet, if you look a little deeper into the situation, it's really not that hard to see that just one little slip somewhere along the way and this stealth life they are living can turn on a dime. That possibility does exist. To suggest otherwise is just being in denial. Where will they be then? Shouldn't the framework be in place that can help them through the hardship of that experience? Even if they weren't a part of the campaign to bring the protections into existence,they will still have them. So my simple question to this is, "Why (if your living stealth) should you or would you, (spoken in a generality) harbor and express such divisive and denigrating language in an attempt to stifle progress being made to bring about these new laws and protections?

If you don't like the thought of transgender people or don't believe they "truly" exist. It's your choice to have those opinions Plain and simple. Conversely to that, I as a transexual same as any other transexual out there, will hold to the belief that the transgender experience is real and is a part of our (transexual) existence.

So how do we resolve this dilemma of such a wide chasm of differing opinion's? Be respectful of each others point of view. Try not to take opposing points too personal. And, above all we shouldn't fight each other in public. I'll admit right here and now, I have been guilty of that last one. However, in the future, you can bet I will not enter into another "public" display of intra-trans disagreements like that again! It does not serve us well.

The lesson I'll take from all of this is; if you're stealth respect those that aren't and do not fault them for living openly. If you're not stealth, respect those that are and do not fault them for not being a part of our efforts at making the world more acceptable to our legitimate right exist equally and openly.

Disclaimer: If i've offended anyone here with the preceeding post; it was not my intent. My apologies in advance.


Dawn

Life has been so easy for me too. ::)  I began transition at 17.  Also on my own, in a third world country where people often confuse transsexual with a type of super feminine gay man.  Yup they're that ignorant.  If you say you've got a female brain & you've got a penis down there, they will laugh at you, ridicule you & beat you up until you cough up blood or until they rape your brains out.

Lucky me that my father's French so my mother & I got a French visa & travelled to France where our lives got a little bit better.  We worked very hard, in different places, built our own way up step by step, little by little dealt with discrimination & bigotry from the locals because we were foreigners but most of all because they saw me as a 'foreigner ->-bleeped-<-got' a threat to their land & beliefs.  Nope I wasn't one of those privileged kids that get everything from their parents, a room with a personal computer & hundreds of free hours to fool around on trans sites.  Foreigner kids don't have it that easy.  If we don't work our asses off & help our parents, we don't eat.  We can't waste a minute of our time doing stupid things like that.

Last year I could finally pay for GRS after working hard with my family to make our business grow. What the hell do I know about the hardships of life?   Maybe I'd have waited until I'm 40, 50 or 60 to transition.  Maybe I'd have married a woman & had kids, played the role of a man for years.  Maybe I'd have built a life as any man first & then transitioned.  Maybe I'd have waited until retirement to transition & taken activism as a hobby.  Maybe I'd have transitioned after having had a successful life as a man, a life made, a generous bank account.  Maybe, maybe, maybe.  Lots of maybes but some of us young ones don't have a "choice".  If we don't transition we die.  There's no other way to put it.  But what do I know. life's been so easy.  ::)

Quote from: Leslie on October 03, 2009, 06:45:56 AM

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 02, 2009, 11:44:40 PM
I'll take a shot at this...

I think many of these people you talk about need to disassociate themselves from the trans community in order to feel safe from prejudice and discrimination.  Of course, there is no guarantee stealth will forever be effective but since it has worked thus far it should work forever.  I also think many stealthers (those who claim to be totally stealth) are most likely young.  They haven't experienced much of what this big bad world can offer so they still wear rose colored glasses.  It's like that old saying, "Let the teenagers run the world while they still know everything."  ;)

Julie

With all due respect, what makes you think that we haven't experienced much of what this big bad world can offer & that we still wear rose coloured glasses?.  I apologise if I've inadvertently misunderstood your post, but are you suggesting that because we transitioned young (I transitioned at 25 myself & I'm in my early thirties now) we haven't experienced bigotry or discrimination?  You see, I believe this is the reason why so many people get upset, when baseless assumptions are made, or blanket statements are thrown out in the open without any consideration of the feelings or experiences of others.

It's only in the recent years that I've been able to start a fresh brand new life in a different country without the burden & pain of my past & I intend to keep it that way.  But I've endured discrimination.  I was demoted & eventually terminated by my former employer for being transsexual.  I've been harassed, abused, denied basic human rights by people in my country of birth for the same reason.  The difference is that I don't come here to cry about my personal matters or to demand sympathy.  My personal affairs are mine alone & I'm a very private person to say the least.

I agree Leslie. Assumptions about one another's lives and choices is at the core of this issue.

Julie, I too think your post was a bit on the patronizing side. Many young women in our community were brought to the point of transition earlier *because* of the discrimination they faced being themselves. I don't think anyone transitions wearing rose colored glasses. I don't think the desire for stealth is any indication of the level of discrimination accumulated. In the same vein, there may be many out and proud transpersons who have never experienced much opposition.

First of all, as Dawn suggested, the statements I made were generalizations but yes, they were based on things I've read here.  When someone says "I am 100% stealth except..." it seems to me they are in denial.  I have a strong math background and there is no gray area in math.  100% has no exceptions.  Sorry, it's decades of mathematical logic that make it hard for me to see it any different.

But if YOU want to see it differently, that's your privilege.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

But what I have tried to make clear is I'm not telling anyone how to live.  I am not telling anyone they are wrong.  What I am saying is if you want a better life: if you want to put an end to the prejudice, intolerance and discrimination, if you want to do something positive for future generations, you can't be invisible.

I often imagine what it would be like for any of us if we went off to have surgery and were greeted at the airport by throngs of reporters all anxiously waiting to see the person who had the SEX CHANGE OPERATION!  The freak!  And then have our pictures and story splashed all over the country and even the world because we had a SEX CHANGE.  That's what happened to Christine Jorgensen back in the early 50's because no one could believe a "man would want to become a woman".  Yet she presented herself with class and dignity throughout the entire ordeal.  She paved the way for all of us and for that I am eternally grateful.

So when I get up on my soap box and talk about the importance of making a difference it's because I know how bad things used to be and how much better they are today because of the people who have made the sacrifices they have.

I hope you'll forgive my desire to encourage all of us to continue making a positive difference and to do so myself.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 03, 2009, 03:13:23 PM
First of all, as Dawn suggested, the statements I made were generalizations but yes, they were based on things I've read here.  When someone says "I am 100% stealth except..." it seems to me they are in denial.  I have a strong math background and there is no gray area in math.  100% has no exceptions.  Sorry, it's decades of mathematical logic that make it hard for me to see it any different.

But if YOU want to see it differently, that's your privilege.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

But what I have tried to make clear is I'm not telling anyone how to live.  I am not telling anyone they are wrong.  What I am saying is if you want a better life: if you want to put an end to the prejudice, intolerance and discrimination, if you want to do something positive for future generations, you can't be invisible.

I often imagine what it would be like for any of us if we went off to have surgery and were greeted at the airport by throngs of reporters all anxiously waiting to see the person who had the SEX CHANGE OPERATION!  The freak!  And then have our pictures and story splashed all over the country and even the world because we had a SEX CHANGE.  That's what happened to Christine Jorgensen back in the early 50's because no one could believe a "man would want to become a woman".  Yet she presented herself with class and dignity throughout the entire ordeal.  She paved the way for all of us and for that I am eternally grateful.

So when I get up on my soap box and talk about the importance of making a difference it's because I know how bad things used to be and how much better they are today because of the people who have made the sacrifices they have.

I hope you'll forgive my desire to encourage all of us to continue making a positive difference and to do so myself.

Julie

I feel that one of the problems is that those who come after us seem to forget that we experienced what they experienced or are experiencing (For the most part).  We suffered pain, prejudice, alienation, sometimes violence, etc.  Yet we succeeded. During my transition and for about a year after surgery, I was quite active in the community where I live, fighting for TS rights and freedoms, but there came a point in time where I needed to get on with my own life, and start looking after me.  I was frustrated that folks kept confusing my issues with TG issues, calling me TG, it's not what I was or am.

Whether they know it or not, I believe that those who have successfully transitioned, Man or Woman, have contributed to the fight for TS rights, just as those who follow will likewise contribute.  However no one has the right to tell me that I have not done enough, I did my thing now leave me alone to enjoy my life in peace.  I didn't transition for a cause, or a fight, I transitioned to be me.  I fought to be where I am now, and I'm not going to jeopardize that by outing myself.  It's about time that others got off their high horse and do their bit, and when they too get tired, pass the torch to those who follow.

-={LR}=-

First off let me state that I am a big advocate of disassociating transsexual from transgender. I think associating a medical condition with a political identity is problematic, especially when many people with that treatable medical condition want no part of that political identity.   Intersex was never a part of transgender, so don't make that association either.

Also let me put it that transition is not a lifelong thing.  For many of us it has an end point.  I don't buy so much into the stealth philosophy as I do the assimiliationist philosophy.  I am not intentionally trying to go stealth and break off all links to my past, people in my life do know, but its not the end of the world that they know.  Then again, as I stated earlier, I experience things differently because I was born intersex.  Assimiliation was rather easy for me after a certian point and transition did have an end point.  People don't question it so much with me...more I get, oh it makes sense, you were born intersex.  Am I out and open, no, you have to know me pretty well to know I am intersex and have transitioned.  I believe that one has to choose how they create a balance in thier life with being open and not being open.   To me this has less to do with discrimintation and more to do with personal choice.  I should note, I am in social circles and communities were being transsexual is no big deal, advantage of big city subculture.

I never had much involvement in the trans community save for early on in my transition.  Even early on in my transition, it was pretty clear I would have to do this alone. If it was not for a GLBT clinic, and a blood test that was a bit more comprehensive, I probably would not have known the exact nature of my intersex condition.  I knew I was intersex...I was born with atypical genitials, and yes, I had scars to prove it.  So I am not necessarily critical of the LGBT medical structure, if anything I am an advocate.

I have made this perfectly clear. Somebody who is transsexual, and does not identify as transgender, is not transgender.  Don't call them transgender, it is well...offensive. Transgender is a political identity, transsexual is a medical condition. If somebody does not identify with the political identity,they are not transgender. Also realize alot of folks do believe transition does have an end, its a valid point.  Don't keep suggesting it doesn't to these folks, its annoying and invalidates thier experience. 

Quote from: sweetstars on October 04, 2009, 08:09:18 AMI have made this perfectly clear. Somebody who is transsexual, and does not identify as transgender, is not transgender.  Don't call them transgender, it is well...offensive. Transgender is a political identity, transsexual is a medical condition. If somebody does not identify with the political identity,they are not transgender. Also realize alot of folks do believe transition does have an end, its a valid point.  Don't keep suggesting it doesn't to these folks, its annoying and invalidates thier experience.

The politically correct movement has done a fairly decent job of creating sensitivity to words they defined as derogatory.  The existence of the term "the 'N' word" is a good example of that.  We can't even say the entire word without violating political correctness.  But that doesn't stop people from using the word.  Telling someone to do something they see no need to do is often futile. 

That is not my opinion, it's simply a fact of human nature.

When people don't say or don't do what you want you can respond in any way you wish.  But what response is most effective?  If your blood boils as you chew them a new @$$ but they laugh in your face, is that a good response on your part?  If you recite a thousand reasons why you feel a certain way and they ignore you, have you accomplished your goals?

What each one of us, individually, feels is important may not even matter to the person sitting next to us.  And it shouldn't take long to find out if it ever will.  Whatever the case, it always hurts us if we take it personally but it may not affect the 'offender' at all.

This thread has helped me to understand why people stop participating on forums. I've seen a lot of people leave different forums, often in anger, hurt or frustration.  In most cases, they took something personally and in most of those cases it was never meant to be personal.  It's very difficult to write something that will be understood by everyone the way you intended it to be.  It may even be impossible to achieve that.  What I've learned during my time on forums is you have to give the author of a post some latitude.  You can't take something personally unless it's clearly directed at you.  There's no room for supposition if you want the lines of communication to remain open.

It has been suggested we can't unify but I see it more as we just aren't communicating well.  Most of our communication is done through forums and in other forms of writing.  And there's no more difficult way to get a point across than with words alone.

I think it's safe to say, for the most part, the members and friends of our community are sensitive to our needs.  I think there's a certain level of respect each one of us has for the other if only because we know what a difficult life this can be.  All we need is to put egos aside and listen to each other the best we can.  And if we find something offensive, ask the person what they meant before firing off a heated response.

Let cooler heads prevail.

Just a suggestion...

Julie

This topic has had its meanderings so whilst this is a little OT it has relevance IMO because it is by a girl 16 years post-op and apart from the generally interesting insight, she mentions the things that are and remain a problem to any girl born XY    Sixteen Years Into Your Future  (http://www.transsexual.org/longterm.html)

Quote from: Steffi on October 04, 2009, 06:22:47 PMshe mentions the things that are and remain a problem to any girl born XY

See, that's the thing and what I see is the root of our problem. To you, and the author, perhaps those things are a problem for "any girl born XY". Sorry, but I don't see myself in 16 years or any time worried about having to stay silent about my childhood experiences for fear of outing myself. I don't now, why would I then? You can still talk about your childhood without saying oh yeah, I had a penis between my legs back then. The examples she gives- First date? I had a first date with a boy, though I was quite young at the time and my parents knew nothing of it. I also know gg's who have been lesbians their whole life and never dated boys. Playing with dolls? Did that too, and still do as a matter of fact. Lots of women don't make it to the prom or have babies, many of those things she mentions are also not restricted to women with transsexual history. Many of us do have children, though it's true we never bore any in our bodies.

There is a list (link below) of very interesting definitions by Kate Grimaldi, levels of stealth/passing which include how well you pass to yourself. There is a point where you remember yourself only as female; even though you may "know" better, you still remember being a girl. The level beyond that is when you simply see yourself as a gg.

http://www.beginninglifeforums.com/Definitions.htm#SPLevels (http://www.beginninglifeforums.com/Definitions.htm#SPLevels)

Interesting link Steffi. Having transitioned at nearly the same age as the author but 35.5 years ago, there is much she talks about that I can identifies with.

FairyGirl - interesting link.
I do take on board your general point, but you are not dealing with all the with real-world situations that can crop up.
How do you talk about school if you attended what is known to be an all-boys school?
- and you can't possibly talk about playing (American) football 20 years ago 'cos that would Out you straight away.....etc etc

A transwoman is always going to be aware of her past on some level.- Dilation alone would ensure that :-\ - and she will always have to be editing her past. 
I am not just being awkward, but IMO simply realistic. Inconvenient facts will HAVE to be avoided by silence or lies.
I have no doubt that the mind is capable of reconstructing the past to align better - I do in fact already have some inkling of that myself. I was saying to my Mum last night that although I obviously remember everything from my past, I somehow no longer remember actually being Him...... what it felt like .... it already seems to me that I have always been like this and who I am now, though I'm only 27 months RLE and 12 months HRT and am still acutely aware of presentation, getting read etc. But already some sort of disconnection is happening.  :o .....  8) 

I also respectfully point out that however welcome, the state described in your link of yourself truly believing a past which does not actually square with the facts would be clinically defined as a delusion.   

Quote from: Steffi on October 04, 2009, 07:54:17 PMyou are not dealing with all the with real-world situations that can crop up.
How do you talk about school if you attended what is known to be an all-boys school?
- and you can't possibly talk about playing (American) football 20 years ago 'cos that would Out you straight away.....etc etc

but sweetie I didn't go to one of those schools, and I personally detested football, and I absolutely did not deal with all the real world situations that can crop up. ;) That was exactly my point. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying it didn't happen to me. I do completely agree with you that those things can often be a problem for many of us. However the only objection I have, and what I was referring to as the root of the problem, is when people make blanket statements such as "things that are and remain a problem to any girl born XY". I'm a girl born XY, and although I can identify with some of the abuse she mentioned, most of the things she saw as problems have simply not proven to be so in my experience.

I'm not denying or trying to belittle yours or anyone else's personal trials, I've got plenty of my own, and many in common with other women born transsexual. I just have a problem with people who assume to speak for me as part of an entire group of people when they don't even know me or what experiences I've had or not. I read an article not long ago, written by a professional crossdresser ("her" credentials? "She" wrote a book about it ::)) who stated emphatically that for us to think there is any difference between the weekend crossdresser and a transsexual is a myth. "She" felt that "she" could take it or leave it, so therefore everyone else should be able to as well. (And "she" should know, after all "she" wrote a book on crossdressing.)

Anyway, I hope that's a little more clear. :) I just really get frustrated with all the self-appointed spokespersons out there for "all" transsexuals.

Quote from: Steffi on October 04, 2009, 07:54:17 PM
FairyGirl - interesting link.
I do take on board your general point, but you are not dealing with all the with real-world situations that can crop up.
How do you talk about school if you attended what is known to be an all-boys school?
- and you can't possibly talk about playing (American) football 20 years ago 'cos that would Out you straight away.....etc etc

A transwoman is always going to be aware of her past on some level.- Dilation alone would ensure that :-\ - and she will always have to be editing her past. 
I am not just being awkward, but IMO simply realistic. Inconvenient facts will HAVE to be avoided by silence or lies.
I have no doubt that the mind is capable of reconstructing the past to align better - I do in fact already have some inkling of that myself. I was saying to my Mum last night that although I obviously remember everything from my past, I somehow no longer remember actually being Him...... what it felt like .... it already seems to me that I have always been like this and who I am now, though I'm only 27 months RLE and 12 months HRT and am still acutely aware of presentation, getting read etc. But already some sort of disconnection is happening.  :o .....  8) 

I also respectfully point out that however welcome, the state described in your link of yourself truly believing a past which does not actually square with the facts would be clinically defined as a delusion.

I would not speak as you are so certain on this, because like I noted this is one of those areas where there is a pretty wide chasm between those who transition young and those who transition older, which last time I checked, you did. It is also one of those areas where there is presumption made that is an attempt to invalidate ones personal experience.   While I have noticed it is fairly typical for this to be a problem for older transitioners, where most of their life was primarily male (male profession, marriage, kids, typical male life really) , this is rarely really a problem for younger transitioners.  Most people I know who begin transition before the age of 30 do not have much male baggage they carry.  I can speak pretty honestly about my childhood, my teenage years, and before transition, and nobody even gives me a second look. My profession and sector I work in, is female dominated as well.  Its not dishonesty on my part, I just look different. Can you say the same?    You are making this presumption on your own experiences, don't make it a generality that dismisses others experiences.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 04, 2009, 09:34:34 PM
.... this is rarely really a problem for younger transitioners.  Most people I know who begin transition before the age of 30 do not have much male baggage they carry.  I can speak pretty honestly about my childhood, my teenage years, and before transition, and nobody even gives me a second look. My profession and sector I work in, is female dominated as well.

Indeed.

There is, even for the younger ones, the factor of how well or poorly they passed for their "birth sex". Some of us were dismal failures and perceived as effeminate, Gay, or whatever from early in life (which is why I chuckle at the phrase "coming out" - some of us were never "in" in order to "come out"!), even long before anyone heard of the word "transsexual". I am sure many people, when they heard about our transitions, simply thought  "Well that makes sense."

One's experience through childhood and into their teens depends a lot on how they were seen by the adults around them and by their peers. Some of us "lived a girl's life" quite extensively in our early years and I am sure that for those who did, transition and life after is somewhat different from those who did not have that experience.

There is no "universal truth" in this, only individual experiences.

Quote from: Northern Jane on October 05, 2009, 04:35:53 AM
Indeed.

There is, even for the younger ones, the factor of how well or poorly they passed for their "birth sex". Some of us were dismal failures and perceived as effeminate, Gay, or whatever from early in life (which is why I chuckle at the phrase "coming out" - some of us were never "in" in order to "come out"!), even long before anyone heard of the word "transsexual". I am sure many people, when they heard about our transitions, simply thought  "Well that makes sense."

One's experience through childhood and into their teens depends a lot on how they were seen by the adults around them and by their peers. Some of us "lived a girl's life" quite extensively in our early years and I am sure that for those who did, transition and life after is somewhat different from those who did not have that experience.

There is no "universal truth" in this, only individual experiences.

You can put me in that "dismal failures" group.  I never really passed as my assigned sex.

This discussion sounds like tribes such as the Arapaho, Sioux, Choctaw, Apache and Mohican tribes all getting together defining their affiliation with the term Native Americans.  Anyone on the outside would say they are all Native American tribes.  And all the arguing in the world with them isn't going to change their minds.

What they would walk away with is the belief that Native Americans just can't get along.

In the US there are citizens of all descents; Polish, Irish, Asian, Russian, etc.  And there is some segregation certain people desire.  But if the US is attacked, as what happened on 9/11, they all band together as one group, citizens of the United States.

There are groups attacking us all the time, some big, some small.  There is a negative social stigma attached to the term transgender.  You don't see near the level of outrage here about that as you do labeling within our community. 

And then there's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).  It has a listing called "Gender Identity Disorder".  It is listed under "Sexual Disorders and Dysfunctions (http://allpsych.com/disorders/sexual/index.html)".  Under 'Symptoms' GID is recognized by "A strong and persistent identification with the opposite gender. There is a sense of discomfort in their own gender and may feel they were 'born the wrong sex.' "  You can be sure when they say "gender" here, they mean birth gender.  So, according to this, there's a lot of people here who have a psychiatric disorder.

Under "Paraphilias and Sexual Disorders (http://allpsych.com/disorders/paraphilias/index.html)" you'll find: Transvestic Fetishism.  It's lumped in with Exhibitionism, Fetishism, Frotteurism, Pedophilia, Sexual Masochism, Sexual Sadism and Voyeurism.  BTW, Transvestic Fetishism is defined basically as MTF crossdressing.

The DSM links the two together.  So anyone wanting to find support for their prejudice towards trans______ can use this book to accomplish just that.

Saying 'I am this' or 'I am that' will not make people believe it.  When we have a widely recognized psychiatric manual saying our "condition" is a disorder and lumping it in with real disorders such as pedophilia; when society in general believes it's all in our heads and that we're messed up; and when certain very vocal groups perpetuate the negative stigma; it's going to be tough to get anyone "out there" to listen to us, a rather small and seemingly fractured minority.

But if we ever expect to make headway, we have to stop bickering amongst ourselves.  If we want to fight, we should be fighting to remove anything related to trans to be removed from any manual of psychiatric disorders and the DSM is the best place to start.  From there, things should only get better.

I hope each and every one of us never has to face prejudice, intolerance, hatred or discrimination.  I hope we all will be seen for exactly who we are.  But that won't make it so, not as long as things remain the same.  Social change can only happen through effort and unity.

Julie

<flamebait>
what is this now? a hbs orgy?

what's the point of a support forum if there is an attitude of "i've got my fix and you peoples with oem equipment can go to hell"?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg42.imageshack.us%2Fimg42%2F5789%2Ffreeashamedsmileys705.gif&hash=5e2b05c310b13b6dfa4d426d8a6a549a6ccd0693)
</flamebait>

Some people depend upon a successful transition in order to simply have a life worth living.  Imagine if you will transition as a medical need.  Then imagine transition as an open lifestyle and think about the people who post every detail of their transitions on the Internet.  Essentially what has happened is that Society has become immensely "trans aware".  Now people are on the lookout for the tell tale signs of women and men who have transitioned, it's like a game people play, "spot the trans person", because people who would use their ability to spot someone who transitioned (to harm them or single them out) have been trained to do so by "trans" people.  Yes, we have educated everyone on how to spot us, everyone including those who would oppress us, not to mention being harmed by others who have transitioned.  So if there are any hard feelings for openly trans people, it may stem from those of us who are now unable to have the lives we needed due to "trans awareness" and being unable to integrate and be treated as human men and human women after transition.

---

Post Merge: October 05, 2009, 02:51:50 PM

---

Quote from: Steffi on October 04, 2009, 06:22:47 PM
This topic has had its meanderings so whilst this is a little OT it has relevance IMO because it is by a girl 16 years post-op and apart from the generally interesting insight, she mentions the things that are and remain a problem to any girl born XY   Sixteen Years Into Your Future  (http://www.transsexual.org/longterm.html)

She can only speak for her experience, she can't speak for any girl born xy, saying it like you did makes it sound like every woman who transitions is going to remain miserable.

In my own experiences I have so much not had her experience that I had to seriously wonder if her article is fake.  I suppose if someone constantly dwelled on the past after transition and constantly compared herself to other women instead of embracing life... then perhaps one could remain that miserable, constantly being sorrowful over a lost childhood.  Personally I moved on and no longer even think about my childhood and the men and women who accept me as a woman never question me about my childhood, I don't think about my childhood.  I live in the present.  I have created a female past for myself by doing so.

Quote from: Julie Wilson on October 05, 2009, 02:38:25 PM
She can only speak for her experience, she can't speak for any girl born xy, saying it like you did makes it sound like every woman who transitions is going to remain miserable.

In my own experiences I have so much not had her experience that I had to seriously wonder if her article is fake.  I suppose if someone constantly dwelled on the past after transition and constantly compared herself to other women instead of embracing life... then perhaps one could remain that miserable, constantly being sorrowful over a lost childhood.  Personally I moved on and no longer even think about my childhood and the men and women who accept me as a woman never question me about my childhood, I don't think about my childhood.  I live in the present.  I have created a female past for myself by doing so.

That's the point I was trying to make, and I don't get what is so hard to comprehend about that. The only separating I'm doing is separating myself as an individual from those all-inclusive "everybody's just like me" statements so many like to throw around for oddball reasons like we care.

I like what you said about creating a female past, which is what the link I posted was really about, nothing to do with being "delusional". It is about realizing that yes, even back then, we've been female all along.

OK everyone.
I apologise for any and all sweeping generalisations I have ever made, here or anywhere else.

In my opinion it is a simple and inescapable fact that if you transitioned into Stealth anytime after about age 5 you ARE going to need to lie about your past - whether consciously, unconsciously, outright, by inference, by omission or any way at all, to some degree you ARE going to lie.

Instead of having a sensible discussion about the what's and why's things quickly degenerate into the sort of hair-splitting that reminds me of when President Clinton did-not-have-sex-with-that-woman. 

I am clearly upsetting people so it's best if I just drop out of this thread and leave it to those who would rather speak "fairly honestly" to each other.

I think Julie Marie's "Native American" analogy hit the mark.

Prior to dating a trans person, I had no idea what it was all about, no idea what dysphoria was...and like the vast majority of cis-people, thought that being trans was all down to some queerness of some sort or other.  It didn't matter when or if or how much someone transitioned...in fact the whole "transition" thing was opaque anyway.

The bottom line is that because the cis community has genital/mental gender alignment, the whole "my gender is defined by my brain alone" thing doesn't register at all.  We, the generalized cis world, take a genito-centric view.  A baby arrives and the medical staff declare "boy" or "girl" depending on genital anatomy (or maybe "umm" for some rare cases).

Yes, it's wrong, it's ignorant, etc. but the upshot of this is that, to them, cutting your dingle-dangle off doesn't make you a woman...and that's as far as the generalized cis perspective currently sees.

By virtue of being able to participate in this community, I now understand a whole lot more than I did before and I can completely grok the point of view that Matilda, Natasha et al have on this - but that is only because I have learnt from this community!

Get it yet?  Does the point register?

You won't clue in the clueless masses with a barrage of righteous indignation and certainly not by squabbling among yourselves.  You're currently all "native americans" whether you like it or not.  Change this by collectively engaging with the world just as you've engaged with me here!

(And this doesn't need to mean outing oneself of going de-stealth...just starting with a little overarching solidarity in a place like this would be a win).

I agree with Jane & Matilda,
I am a stealth girl also, it's a personal thing with me. I admire and envey those out there. Job concerns are my biggset problem. I still need to support my family and if being stealth helps, so be it.
PS. as my hair and boobs grow , now A cup I don't know how much longer I can last
Sarah

Quote from: sarahF on October 10, 2009, 08:10:14 AM
I agree with Jane & Matilda,
I am a stealth girl also, it's a personal thing with me. I admire and envey those out there. Job concerns are my biggset problem. I still need to support my family and if being stealth helps, so be it.
PS. as my hair and boobs grow , now A cup I don't know how much longer I can last
Sarah

Sarah, I don't think you understand what stealth means.  Stealth means you have FULLY transitioned, living as your identified gender and done with both social and physical aspects of transition, and assimiliated as your target sex, without many people knowing of your past.  IT is the opposite of not transitioning and living as your assigned/birth  sex.  Stealth means transition is done with.  From what it sounds like you are not even close to that point, and are just starting transition. 

I have no interest in being a member of any special, political organisation.  That's not the reason I transitioned & I view this sort of implied "debt" to the community utterly absurd.  My experience with activists, trans activists specifically, is limited to the internet, and from what I've been able to gather, trans activists are generally those people that can't be stealth to begin with.  Most of them are late transitioners, most of them are pre-op/non-op, and also most of them are lesbian/gay/bi.  They're not only fighting for equal rights as pre-op/non-op trans but also as gay/lesbian/bi.  There's nothing wrong with that.  We live in a democracy & people have the right to do whatever they want with their lives , but please understand that not everybody has the same interests.  Pure & simple.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 10, 2009, 01:30:14 PM
Sarah, I don't think you understand what stealth means.  Stealth means you have FULLY transitioned, living as your identified gender and done with both social and physical aspects of transition, and assimiliated as your target sex, without many people knowing of your past.  IT is the opposite of not transitioning and living as your assigned/birth  sex.  Stealth means transition is done with.  From what it sounds like you are not even close to that point, and are just starting transition.

That seems to be an unnecessarily exclusive interpretation.  Stealth is, by definition, a term referring to the trait of covertness.  So surely it's more about the concealment of a current or previous transition, not the completion?  Aside from those who have historical knowledge, if one can pass, live and present entirely as their gender identity, then aren't they effectively living stealthily?  I mean, what's the practical difference?

Quote from: Matilda on October 05, 2009, 05:33:58 PM
Sigh.  People never learn.   Here we are again making sweeping generalizations about everybody else without knowing absolutely anything about the other persons' lives.

No one here is making sweeping generalizations.  By its definition, a sweeping generalization is an all inclusive statement.  Like "All TGs are late transitioners" or "Every TG can be stealth."   No one here is saying "every" or "all".  They are sharing their personal experiences.

Quote from: Blanche on October 11, 2009, 08:33:06 AM
I have no interest in being a member of any special, political organisation.  That's not the reason I transitioned & I view this sort of implied "debt" to the community utterly absurd.

I don't think anyone is trying to pressure anybody else into being an activist.  Rather the intent seems to be to create awareness that working towards stealth does not guarantee success.  And at some point in your life someone or something could "out" you.  And if that happens, wouldn't it be better to live in a society where TGs are treated equally? 

From what I understand, the OP was saying those who identify as living in stealth are critical of the very same people who can be a factor in bringing about education, teaching tolerance and helping end the prejudice and discrimination that compel so many of us to seek stealth.  That would be like criticizing the person with the machete clearing the way in front of you while trying to get through the jungle.  It makes no sense to do that.

The facts are these:
     -There's a very negative stigma attached to people who cross socially accpetable gender lines.
     -Society is more prejudiced against men who cross the gender lines than women.  (I'm using birth gender for this statement.)
     -Stealth is desirable because it dramatically reduces or eliminates having to deal with the prejudice and ignorance.
     -For some people being socially stealth (being able to interact everyday without prejudice) is not an option or not their choice.
     For some people being socially stealth is extremely important.
     If you are known to be or are thought to be TG, you could face prejudice, discrimination, ostracization, intolerance, hatred and other negative reactions.
     -The only way to eliminate the negative reactions is by eliminating the negative stigma and that requires (among other things) education, open minds and grass roots support.
     -Change doesn't just happen.

We can debate this until we are blue in the face.  One can say. "I'm not like you!" or deny their birth gender all they want, but the things we fear most will not change unless we bond as a single force and fight them.

President Obama just gave a speech before the HRC. http://www.hrcactioncenter.org/site/Ecard?ecard_id=1061&autologin=true  In this speech he uttered the word "Transgender".  I know of no other president that ever did that publicly.  He also used "gender identity" when talking about those who should be treated equally.  ENDA has some great momentum and it includes TGs.  Things are getting better and probably should keep getting better but we cannot forget that the things we've worked for can be taken away in a second if we don't keep fighting. 

What will keep us in the background, what will prevent us from enjoying the same rights as anyone else, what will slow down our social progress is infighting, separation and animosity.  No one should be guilted into joining in and helping but those who are out there should not be criticized for what they do.

Julie

Note: Definitions given are not open for interpretation.  If you choose to interpret them you will lose the intended meaning.  This is my view based on my life experience and should not be construed otherwise.  I speak for no one other than myself.

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 11, 2009, 12:01:02 PM
No one here is making sweeping generalizations.  By its definition, a sweeping generalization is an all inclusive statement.  Like "All TGs are late transitioners" or "Every TG can be stealth."   No one here is saying "every" or "all".  They are sharing their personal experiences.

Quote from: Steffi on October 04, 2009, 06:22:47 PMshe mentions the things that are and remain a problem to any girl born XY

but someone did use an all inclusive statement to point to a blog on someone else's personal hardships with transitioning. Several of us responded to that, stating only that the particular hardships mentioned as examples did not appear in our own personal experiences. There are enough people out there speaking for us already, it's perfectly okay to point out that the emperor's clothes don't fit everyone, to mix metaphors. That's not to diminish anyone's experiences, including the person who posted it, just to say hey wait a minnit, I happen to HATE football! :laugh:

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 11, 2009, 12:01:02 PM
I speak for no one other than myself.

Thank you dear, that's all we were saying too. :)

I dont really think theres any difinitive list of things tg people share beyond gid.

To answer the initial question: I find im not sure, perhaps at times. I've been full time 3 years, and not many people i know now know my past... the number of conversations with trans in that come up and i have to sit there and contribute just enough to not look out of place... i tend to go down the middle ground, or supportive in some cases. I dont quite think theres any point in hostility.... afterall we were there once. I do however have a big problem with those that are out, and demand others are out too... that stealth is 'another closet'... I think to them, being out is a crutch really.

Holy cow!! I was just browsing through this thread and found this link someone posted:
http://www.transsexual.org/longterm.html (http://www.transsexual.org/longterm.html)

Here is a quote from it that hits me so hard!

Quote
I found that, perfectly accepted by neighbors, I was included naturally as a woman in their lives. This was wonderful, until topics of discussion turned to matters of growing up, of childhood, or of biological functioning and sex. Here, I had to fall mute. I am hopeless at the basic human skill of lying, so making up a false history was not an option. Additionally, lacking real knowledge, it would be easy for me to be caught. I was forever forced to fall silent, made eager to try to change the subject. It was my last recourse to just nod and force the odd empty laugh when other women spoke of their first date, or first period, or childhood toys, or basic life experiences. Sometimes it was hard to hold back tears at what I had missed. Such situations make me feel alien, outside, passing for human. Excluded from life.

At first I could tolerate this difficult situation. But as the years progressed, it became increasingly impossible to bear. If women friends spoke of the differences between men and women, I writhed inside myself...for what they speculated about, I actually knew for certain, first hand. I had been a kind of spy in the camp of the men for almost two decades, and my transition and life had taught me directly the differences as they relate to being a woman. Such knowledge as they could only ponder, I actually knew, but had to stay mute about. If I were to offer the slightest particle of wisdom, it might raise suspicion, certainly speaking would raise eyebrows...how could anyone know such things?

This is the first time I have EVER seen articulated EXACTLY the stresses I had in my transition.  I passed well enough to be taken for a natal female.  That being the case, when normal female conversations were brought up and people asked about my past, I had to be careful with what I said, I felt I had to lie.  this was okay at first, an acceptable sacrifice, but over time it became unbearable.  I felt, "damn, even when I'm finally me I can't REALY be me - a me which includes all of my past experiences".  I eventually started outing myself and it wasn't long after that I de-transitioned.

Thanks for such an awesome link!  I really thought I was alone in my sadness during transition.  I mean, don't get me wrong, transition was awesome - probably one of the most satisfying experiences in my life, but having to deceive those around me and constantly be on guard - that ultimately was a price that was too high for me.

EDIT: I need to include more from the article.  This is soooo amazing for me.  I don't feel alone anymore in my experiences.  I transitioned young and I still had these difficulties.

QuotePassing perfectly can mean living in fear of being found out. It can mean hiding and covering up. It means keeping a secret. Some people find this easy, I find it painful. For me, passing perfectly and staying hidden very often means having to keep carefully guarded my greatest achievement, my most difficult adventure, the barely survived fountainhead of much of my wisdom. It means censoring my life, and to some degree my very identity.

Was not the reason I went through transition to be free? To be able to be myself without hiding? And now I find myself hiding again, for a similar reason...something about myself too terrible to admit.

I dont think passing perfectly means living in fear of being found out.. surely thats passing 'not quite perfectly'?

I do see thier point though, I'm in a similar boat. Pretty much everyone I know, knows only a girl, and that gets sticky at times... when we discuss girl things... mostly childhood and feminine issues... I'm totally comfortable with the boy talk, and chaging around friends, but its the discussion of periods, the pill, examinations, things in our teens that i fall over on. I've lied a few times, creatively suggesting one thing, while not saying it... its not QUITE a lie right? Yes, its quite emotionally heavy at times, but its not something i chose, and id NEVER choose to out myself. I'm happy just being one of the girls.

Its a fine line to tread, i dont think everyone can cope with it. Perhaps I'm a fast learner, or im just naturally this way. But I manage to break the uncomfortableness down and take part without taking part...

Though my most uncomfortable was over the summer when I was working home in Ireland, i was stood outside work having a cigarette, and i had a minor stomach cramp... i hadnt eaten much that day... the boss was next to me, and she sees this, and asks 'is it your time of the month?' im like 'erm,' and she takes that for me being embarassed about my period.... and gets all hyper sympathetic.... cue 'i dont want to watch' cringe sitcom moment....

Quote from: finewine on October 11, 2009, 08:44:02 AM
That seems to be an unnecessarily exclusive interpretation.  Stealth is, by definition, a term referring to the trait of covertness.  So surely it's more about the concealment of a current or previous transition, not the completion?  Aside from those who have historical knowledge, if one can pass, live and present entirely as their gender identity, then aren't they effectively living stealthily?  I mean, what's the practical difference?

Quite literally, stealth means you have transitioned...period.  Not that you are in some pre-transition phase. Yes, the term is exclusive to those who have transitioned.  This is a pretty clear cut definition, and if you don't understand what stealth means you have alot to learn.

I think thier point was that 'stealth' represents a degree of 'covert action' on the part of a transitioned person to maintain that 'non trans' status. Not that stealth was what 'in the closet' meant.


It depends on your situation, Theres not much to maintain stealth really... I'm pre op, but live essentiallty 'stealth' Nobody knows, nobody can find out really. within a year I'll be post op hopefully, and things wont really change. If you look like a duck, sound like a duck, walk, swim and quack like a duck, people are going to just think 'duck'... it doesnt take any effort if its all natural.

This will obviously raise the whole 'omg in another closet' and 'deceit' lines of topic... oh joy.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 13, 2009, 08:06:20 AM
Quite literally, stealth means you have transitioned...period.  Not that you are in some pre-transition phase. Yes, the term is exclusive to those who have transitioned.  This is a pretty clear cut definition, and if you don't understand what stealth means you have alot to learn.

That definition implies that people that choose not to go "stealth" haven't transitioned.
It's yet again, the implication that going stealth is the only way to "successfully" transition.

It is not.
A fully transitioned woman can accept her past without being somehow stuck in transition and/or failing at being a woman.
A fully transitioned man can accept his past without being somehow stuck in transition and/or failing at being a man.

Implying that the only way for me to be a "man" is to sever all ties with everyone who knows, (in my case) move to a different country, and pretend that my past never happened, actively lie to everyone I get to know as the "new" me, is rude, at best.

Well no...
you can be out, and transitioned.... I dont think that was her point.

And stealth doesnt neceserily mean NOBODY can know in my book... family and perhaps a lover yes... anyone else?  To me, its when nobody can tell, and are just another woman or man in your life.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 13, 2009, 09:58:31 AM
Well no...
you can be out, and transitioned.... I dont think that was her point.

What she said, word for word, is "stealth means you have transitioned...period.  Not that you are in some pre-transition phase".
It may not have been her intended point, but it is exactly what she said.

She MEANT, stealth isnt another word for 'not transitioned living as a male and not told anyone...

'stealth means you've transitioned = means you're post op, socially ajusted and living life without mentioning trans. Where you would literally HAVE to tell people, to  be 'out'...


On topic: I think theres more hostility TOWARDS stealth transpeople, or those that wish to be stealth, from those that are OUT as trans.... there seems a deffiante 'you're not fulfilling your obligation to fight for our rights and are being a coward' lines...

First, I'd like to point out, that it's impossible for you, or me, to know for a fact what another person meant, if what they meant and what they've written are two separate things that is.
On a forum, where tone of voice and bodylanguage are inaccessible, all we have to go on is what other people have written, word for word.
I for one take offence to when a person reads something I've written and then treats it as if I've "meant" something else, something I haven't written and as such I would advice against seeing something "other" than a person has written in their posts.

What they wrote and what you proclaim they meant are two different things. Unless she's expressedly told you what she meant, you can not know for a fact whether they meant anything other than what they wrote. If she told you what she meant, she could just as easily come here and explain what she meant. It's not your place to correct the meaning of other people's posts.

That reading into things concept works both ways you know?

When I read her statement, I wasnt looking for a reason to be offended, just interested in the topic... perhaps initial perceptions of a subject colour what people read? even word for word.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 13, 2009, 11:53:57 AM
That reading into things concept works both ways you know?

When I read her statement, I wasnt looking for a reason to be offended, just interested in the topic... perhaps initial perceptions of a subject colour what people read? even word for word.

I responded to what she said, word for word.
I wasn't looking for reasons to be offended.
I responded to the actual words in the post.

not really... you decided that stealth means 'not accepting ones past'

All she 'literally' said, word for word,

is that stealth is a term used by those that are transitioned.... if someone says they are stealth, then they are post transition -nowhere does she say its the only way.

-not some pre transition phase. - someone was confused, and thought stealth = in the closet. she corrected them on that statement.

Thats her literal words, and literal meanings... you're reading into it hon.

You are reading into my words now.

If you define stealth as being done with transition then it implies that non-stealth means you're not done with transition.
I find that definition inaccurate as well as insulting.

Simple as that.

'implies' = Reading into.

I thought you were taking things 'literally'

Nowhere does she say 'literally' that its the ONLY way to be done with transition.

Im sorry, this is going so far off topic, and looks like you're after any excuse to be offended. Nobody else seems to think it was a bad statement, infact it only further fuels the idea of the hostility coming from the oposite direction to that in the thread title.

Someone want to remind me what this topic was about?  HA!

-={LR}=-

The fact that I'm the only one who's commented on it does not mean that no one else thinks it's a bad statement.
If someone states as a fact that "X = Y" then taking it to imply that absence of X = absence of Y doesn't require you to read anything in the post other than what the posts says.

My insistence that "stealth =/= successful transition" is hardly me showing any hostility towards people who are stealth, it's me objecting to the implication that "successful transition = stealth".
Disagreeing with a false statement is not showing hostility to the personal choices of the person who made the statement. Being offended by an obviously false statement is not showing hostility to the personal choices of the person who made the statement. Thus my continued taking offence to the presumption that "stealth = successful transition" (which translates to no-stealth = no-successful transition) does not constitute hostility towards people who make the personal choice to go stealth, nor their personal choice to go stealth.
Continuing to state that disagreement = hostility doesn't make it true.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 13, 2009, 08:06:20 AM
Quite literally, stealth means you have transitioned...period.  Not that you are in some pre-transition phase. Yes, the term is exclusive to those who have transitioned.  This is a pretty clear cut definition, and if you don't understand what stealth means you have alot to learn.

I personally found the quote lacking in depth to properly explain itself.  If literally stealth means you have transitioned that is fine, except no one defined what transition meant - and boy can it mean different things to different people.  Does this mean that all people who have transitioned are stealth or just that if you are stealth you have transitioned?  Gets confusing based on the quote - not so cut and dried.

The golden cherry on top was the assertion that if finewine doesn't know about stealth then finewine has a lot to learn.  Based on the specific description given, with its limited wording, I'm not even sure *I* know what stealth is even more, and I used to live a stealth lifestyle.

Miniar you are not alone.

I guess this thread is why there is "Stealth hostility toward those who are out or still transitioning" He, he.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: sweetstars on October 13, 2009, 08:06:20 AM
Quite literally, stealth means you have transitioned...period.  Not that you are in some pre-transition phase. Yes, the term is exclusive to those who have transitioned.  This is a pretty clear cut definition, and if you don't understand what stealth means you have alot to learn.

Well, not quite.  But first let's define stealth according to Webster's then how it applies to TGs.

Main Entry: 1stealth
Pronunciation: \ˈstelth\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English stelthe; akin to Old English stelan to steal
Date: 13th century

1 a archaic : theft b obsolete : something stolen
2 : the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly <the state moves by stealth to gather information — Nat Hentoff>
3 : the state of being furtive or unobtrusive
4 : an aircraft-design characteristic consisting of oblique angular construction and avoidance of vertical surfaces that is intended to produce a very weak radar return

I'd say the second definition is the one the person who originally used the word when applying it to living in a gender opposite your birth gender (LGOBG).  Specifically "imperceptibly" is most likely the key word.

If that is how the word was originally applied in reference to LGOBG then anyone who can move imperceptibly through society without their birth gender being questioned is living in stealth.

Agreed?

Next question - Is it generally accepted that being stealth is a full time state of being?  In other words, you can't be stealth if you don't live full time in the gender you in which you are stealth.  Or can you be stealth just when you go out?

To me there's varying degrees of stealth, from 100% where absolutely no one in your everyday life knows, no one has any doubt about your gender and those who know your history are out of your life completely to "when you go out" stealth where you can go out into public and interact with people without your presentation raising any questions about your gender.

Maybe someone should start a new thread so we can all come to an agreement how stealth should be defined.

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 13, 2009, 04:00:10 PM
I guess this thread is why there is "Stealth hostility toward those who are out or still transitioning" He, he.

-={LR}=-

There certainly seems to be two sides, doesn't there?

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 13, 2009, 06:16:03 PM
[...]
Main Entry: stealth
[...]
2 : the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly <the state moves by stealth to gather information — Nat Hentoff>
[...]
]I'd say the second definition is the one the person who originally used the word when applying it to living in a gender opposite your birth gender (LGOBG).  Specifically "imperceptibly" is most likely the key word.

Yes, that was how I intuitively interpreted the term in this context.   I do, apparently,  "have a lot to learn" about how special interest groups seek to redefine terminology in ways that a different from common use.

Aside from the sometimes pejorative use of the term "in the closet", it would seem to me that this implies the very attributes of stealth as per the common definition.  After all, being in a state of "stealth" implies a potential 3rd party observer (how can one be in stealth to oneself?).  If ones trans history is imperceptible to a 3rd party observer, then are you not in "stealth" irrespective of where in the transition process you are?  I mean...it's not like you go around with a birth certificate taped to your forehead, is it.

Quote
Maybe someone should start a new thread so we can all come to an agreement how stealth should be defined.

Hehe...as long as you don't hold your breath for unanimous agreement.  Personally, I don't think this is a big issue. So some random internet personality gets their knickers in a twist over a definition or who is/is not included in it - so what?  Personally, of all the issues this community should be concerned with, this one is stultifying.

Quite simply, the dictionary definitions do not apply in this case.  There is a common community definition that is being used, not the dictionary definition. 

The community definition is such:
A post-transition phase where one has reached a point where they are no living as their birth sex, and that people in their lives are unaware of said persons birth sex.

Hopefully that clarifies things.  If you have not transitioned, you are by definition not stealth...you are in the closet, and there is a big difference.  One transition is over and done with, the other transition has yet to take place.  One cannot go stealth, while living as their birth sex, because one has not yet transitioned.

Stealth and in-the-closet are two different places.  One transition is done with, the other transition has not even started.  These are commonly used definitions within the community...and yes, its pretty clear, you have much to learn.

Oh my God. I have never seen so many people sit down together to pick fly ->-bleeped-<- out of pepper before. Unreal.

Quote from: Wendy1974 on October 13, 2009, 09:26:57 PM
Oh my God. I have never seen so many people sit down together to pick fly ->-bleeped-<- out of pepper before. Unreal.

If you think this is bad start a new topic called something like "TS will transition."  or "What is a true TS" and watch the sparks fly  >:-)

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Wendy1974 on October 13, 2009, 09:26:57 PM
Oh my God. I have never seen so many people sit down together to pick fly ->-bleeped-<- out of pepper before. Unreal.

Exactly why I have not commented since my last post.


Janet

Quote from: Wendy1974 on October 13, 2009, 09:26:57 PM
Oh my God. I have never seen so many people sit down together to pick fly ->-bleeped-<- out of pepper before. Unreal.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faeriewylde.com%2Fimages%2Fsmiles2%2Flmao.gif&hash=e9ea9b5d51bc1cd14e9413aa1e97f3188d230f07)

Quote from: sweetstars on October 13, 2009, 08:31:49 PM
Quite simply, the dictionary definitions do not apply in this case.  There is a common community definition that is being used, not the dictionary definition. 

The community definition is such:
A post-transition phase where one has reached a point where they are no living as their birth sex, and that people in their lives are unaware of said persons birth sex.

Hopefully that clarifies things.  If you have not transitioned, you are by definition not stealth...you are in the closet, and there is a big difference.  One transition is over and done with, the other transition has yet to take place.  One cannot go stealth, while living as their birth sex, because one has not yet transitioned.

Stealth and in-the-closet are two different places.  One transition is done with, the other transition has not even started.  These are commonly used definitions within the community...and yes, its pretty clear, you have much to learn.

Thanks for clarifying hon, I got what you said first time round... I figured it was pretty obvious, and its quite a valid true point.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 14, 2009, 12:09:10 PM
Thanks for clarifying hon, I got what you said first time round... I figured it was pretty obvious, and its quite a valid true point.

Well I personally have no vested interest or parochial agenda in whatever the definition is - it matters not one whit to me (indeed, the only reason I chime in at all on these threads is simply to get my head around some of the diverse perspectives at play out there). I guess I'm just confused as to why, if  the community definition is so common and obviousness of it so self-evident, there seems to be so much fuss and disagreement over it.

Quote... you have much to learn.

Oh I don't doubt it.  Although it could also be that as I have no stake in the term, I see the whole issue as Wendy1974 so eloquently described it :)

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 11, 2009, 12:01:02 PM
I don't think anyone is trying to pressure anybody else into being an activist.  Rather the intent seems to be to create awareness that working towards stealth does not guarantee success.  And at some point in your life someone or something could "out" you.  And if that happens, wouldn't it be better to live in a society where TGs are treated equally? 

From what I understand, the OP was saying those who identify as living in stealth are critical of the very same people who can be a factor in bringing about education, teaching tolerance and helping end the prejudice and discrimination that compel so many of us to seek stealth.  That would be like criticizing the person with the machete clearing the way in front of you while trying to get through the jungle.  It makes no sense to do that.

The facts are these:
     -There's a very negative stigma attached to people who cross socially accpetable gender lines.
     -Society is more prejudiced against men who cross the gender lines than women.  (I'm using birth gender for this statement.)
     -Stealth is desirable because it dramatically reduces or eliminates having to deal with the prejudice and ignorance.
     -For some people being socially stealth (being able to interact everyday without prejudice) is not an option or not their choice.
     For some people being socially stealth is extremely important.
     If you are known to be or are thought to be TG, you could face prejudice, discrimination, ostracization, intolerance, hatred and other negative reactions.
     -The only way to eliminate the negative reactions is by eliminating the negative stigma and that requires (among other things) education, open minds and grass roots support.
     -Change doesn't just happen.

The number of people living stealth is very small.  I don't see how outing ourselves could help at all.  But one thing is for sure, we've fought a long hard battle to be where we are.  Wishing that we out ourselves to fight a cause, I don't care what kind of cause it is, is wrong & selfish.

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 11, 2009, 12:01:02 PM
President Obama just gave a speech before the HRC. http://www.hrcactioncenter.org/site/Ecard?ecard_id=1061&autologin=true  In this speech he uttered the word "Transgender".  I know of no other president that ever did that publicly.  He also used "gender identity" when talking about those who should be treated equally.  ENDA has some great momentum and it includes TGs.  Things are getting better and probably should keep getting better but we cannot forget that the things we've worked for can be taken away in a second if we don't keep fighting. 

What will keep us in the background, what will prevent us from enjoying the same rights as anyone else, what will slow down our social progress is infighting, separation and animosity.  No one should be guilted into joining in and helping but those who are out there should not be criticized for what they do.

Julie

Note: Definitions given are not open for interpretation.  If you choose to interpret them you will lose the intended meaning.  This is my view based on my life experience and should not be construed otherwise.  I speak for no one other than myself.[/color][/font]

This is another common misconception on this website. That everybody is "American".  I'm Swiss & what president Obama says or doesn't say doesn't affect me in the slightest .

Quote from: Blanche on October 15, 2009, 06:12:41 AM
The number of people living stealth is very small.  I don't see how outing ourselves could help at all.  But one thing is for sure, we've fought a long hard battle to be where we are.  Wishing that we out ourselves to fight a cause, I don't care what kind of cause it is, is wrong & selfish.

This is another common misconception on this website. That everybody is "American".  I'm Swiss & what president Obama says or doesn't say doesn't affect me in the slightest .

Actually, I probably think the number living stealth is MUCH higher... not every transperson goes on the internet 'community' and a lot dont go near any community... just live. I agree with you though Blanche... I fought for MY life to be as its meant to be, there are so many trans people out there that dont want to help themselves, why should we break out backs for those that cant be bothered anyway?

Also, Not american either \o/. Obama is only a new political figure for me to satirise :D

Okay I researched this, and I found several good articles/pages on the internet that discuss the meaning of stealth as it applies to the transsexual comunity. What I noticed is that they are all pretty much in agreement that "stealth" does NOT include hanging about on transgender support forums proclaiming to everyone in the world with a computer how "stealth" you are. By those definitions, no one here is stealth by reason of posting here in the first place. One page really hit the nail on the head when it said the term was seriously overloaded.

Anytime we try to cram people into little pigeonholes there will always be those who won't fit, who can't fit, who refuse to fit, and who question the relevance of pigeonholes to begin with. That's fine and I wouldn't want it any other way. The world would be damned boring if we were all cookie cutter people.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ichloe.com%2Fimages%2Fthai-cartoon.gif&hash=65eaa7f889b2bda91ebfb9c898ec3b786a9ed6bd)

Quote from: FairyGirl on October 15, 2009, 11:55:58 AMBy those definitions, no one here is stealth by reason of posting here in the first place....

I am going to take exception to that because being "out" on the Internet is no way the same as being "out" in 3D.

There is a reason why I come to the forums to try to help but have NEVER been to any kind of group-anything involving TS.

Sweetie I wasn't agreeing, just repeating the general attitude of what I had read, as I prefaced it by saying "by those definitions". My second paragraph was to question any such pat definitions. I agree with you that the internet is not the same, and I'm thankful for those like you who share your insights and experiences here, we would surely be worse off without you.

I disagree frankly....

Nobody knows who you are... Your real name, your occupation, location etc unless you give it. As far as 'real life' the imporant part goes, im not out.

Stealth, to me, is a difficult term, I'm not paticularly fond of the intricacies and varied definitions. I'll just say this.

I live as the girl I am,
Everyone that interacts with me on a daily basis, does not accept me as a girl. They know no different. (Acceptance imo is another word for 'dont quite think you're x')
My university know me as female
my friends know me as female
my housemates know me again, only as female.

Now due to the fact I'm here posting on a transgendered forum, suddenly negates the fact that i live the life of a female, not a transgendered woman. Ok....

The internet CAN be quite intricately intertwined with life, OR in this case imo, a distant vague connection that has absolutely no relevance to day to day life.Valuable? yes, totally. But being 'out' here is a relative term. Nobody is really OUT on here.  To people who know eachother in real life on here, yes, ok, you're out to each other, but then it trancends the 'life' 'internet' boundry.

Most here i wager dont know anyone, and frankly, most here could be absolutely anything.

Words on a screen are a very flexible thing. 105 keys with an infinate number of combinations are no more likely to be honest than lie.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 15, 2009, 01:00:26 PM
...

Words on a screen are a very flexible thing. 105 keys with an infinate number of combinations are no more likely to be honest than lie.

105 keys wow, mine doesn't have that many.  I guess that means you guys can lie better than me LOL :)

-={LR}=-

Quote from: FairyGirl on October 15, 2009, 12:43:45 PM
Sweetie I wasn't agreeing, just repeating the general attitude of what I had read, as I prefaced it by saying "by those definitions". My second paragraph was to question any such pat definitions. I agree with you that the internet is not the same, and I'm thankful for those like you who share your insights and experiences here, we would surely be worse off without you.

***HUG***

Sorry I didn't read every post here, so my little comment may have been already made. As a social worker and TS myself, I have seen that the ability to be stealth is often decided by how much money one has for things like FFS and other proceedures that can really enhance "passing". Money can make a huge difference in how one deals with life. As a "socialist", I think stealth can be a class issue.

Quote from: xsocialworker on October 16, 2009, 09:39:48 AM
Sorry I didn't read every post here, so my little comment may have been already made. As a social worker and TS myself, I have seen that the ability to be stealth is often decided by how much money one has for things like FFS and other proceedures that can really enhance "passing". Money can make a huge difference in how one deals with life. As a "socialist", I think stealth can be a class issue.

If you grow up in an environment that is accepting and supportive and if local laws allow it, it is possible to avoid the costly procedures such as (for the girls) FFS, hair removal or replanting and BA or (for the guys) mastectomy and maybe even to a degree bottom surgery, by simply adjusting your hormones at or before puberty.  For both sides, the outward appearance would be unmistakably their identified gender.

There's no doubt there's a class issue for those who feel animosity towards others in their group.  We've seen a lot of that here lately in the creating of sub groups, young & old, stealth & out, early transitioners & older transitoners.  But it's the hostility that follow that makes dividing us into sub groups unfortunate.

Each of us comes to this forum with our own baggage.  At times we read something that stirs up something in that bag and apply it to our interpretation.  And, on occasion, we direct our emotions towards whoever happens to cross our paths at the time.  It's called kicking the cat.

A man is called into the boss's office.  Just before he arrives the boss is on the phone arguing with one of his suppliers and becomes furious that the supplier won't have the goods delivered in time.

The man knocks on the boss's door and the angry boss calls him in.  The boss only wanted to ask his opinion of something but is not too upset to focus and instead chews the man out for something that wasn't his fault.

The man leaves work, goes home and walks in the door.  He is greeted warmly by his wife but he instead yells at her.

The wife walks into the kitchen as one of the kids comes in the back door.  She yells at him.

Then the cat walks by and the kid kicks it.

That is what we see here too.  Maybe we should think before we kick the cat.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 16, 2009, 11:08:04 AM
If you grow up in an environment that is accepting and supportive and if local laws allow it, it is possible to avoid the costly procedures such as (for the girls) FFS, hair removal or replanting and BA or (for the guys) mastectomy and maybe even to a degree bottom surgery, by simply adjusting your hormones at or before puberty.  For both sides, the outward appearance would be unmistakably their identified gender.

...

Julie

And off on another tangent...

Errrrr... Are you suggesting that TS would be happy with only HRT? That the saving of $$$ would outweigh the importance of SRS, as long as the TS looked as they identify.  I only asked because in my mind I didn't transition because environment conditions you listed were favorable or unfavorable, I transitioned because I had to regardless.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 16, 2009, 11:51:42 AM
And off on another tangent...

Errrrr... Are you suggesting that TS would be happy with only HRT? That the saving of $$$ would outweigh the importance of SRS, as long as the TS looked as they identify.  I only asked because in my mind I didn't transition because environment conditions you listed were favorable or unfavorable, I transitioned because I had to regardless.

-={LR}=-

Not at all.  Only that early hormonal intervention would reduce or eliminate certain costly procedures.  I didn't mention GRS because hormones won't address that.  Since no surgeons I know of will perform GRS on anyone under 18, anyone who is able to have early hormonal intervention would still have to wait until they are 18 for GRS.

The environmental conditions could result in the pre-pubescent individual not being able to get hormonal intervention.  Laws might prevent it.  Family could prevent it.  It has nothing to do with what the TG desires.  A 12 year old might know, without a doubt, that he or she is living in the wrong gender but if his or her parents are adamantly against it or against therapy, etc., it will be very difficult for that 12 year old to get the proper care.

At this point in medical science, there seems to be no way to completely change one's physical gender without surgery.  But early hormonal intervention can prevent the necessity of things like FFS, BA, hair removal, mastectomy and other procedures TG have if they have to endure birth gender puberty through to adulthood.  It's the best treatment available at the moment.

Julie

QuoteMaybe we should think before we kick the cat.

I don't like cats.  There's nothing more satisfying than the "thwap *screeeooow* !" of a good sound connection between leathered foot and cats arse.


Yes, I'm just kidding

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2007%2F09_01%2FtigerDM0309_468x478.jpg&hash=32d384e8cfa40f2081144e898aadbac399d7e851)

Try and kick me in the butt there, lunch meat. >:-)

^{Also kidding}


Janet

I know many TSs that have transitioned and are NOT living in "stealth".  We are all activists in one way or another, and we all teach and educate others about the trans-experience.  Some of us are in Political activism, others of us are in spiritual circles where being trans has specific meaning, and some are in social circles where we are known as trans-women.
Being trans is who I am and I can no more deny that than deny my history.

But if there are some here who wish to do that, please go for it and be happy in stealth.

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 16, 2009, 11:51:42 AM
And off on another tangent...

Errrrr... Are you suggesting that TS would be happy with only HRT? That the saving of $$$ would outweigh the importance of SRS, as long as the TS looked as they identify.  I only asked because in my mind I didn't transition because environment conditions you listed were favorable or unfavorable, I transitioned because I had to regardless.

-={LR}=-

I think Julie may have been talking about ftms with the 'and maybe even bottom surgery to a degree' comment. There are some ideas that proper hormones administered at the right time may allow for substantial growth of the clitoris to more resemble a phallus.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2009, 02:21:00 PM
I think Julie may have been talking about ftms with the 'and maybe even bottom surgery to a degree' comment. There are some ideas that proper hormones administered at the right time may allow for substantial growth of the clitoris to more resemble a phallus.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're right Nero.  I should have clarified that better.  Thanks!

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 16, 2009, 02:38:40 PM
You're right Nero.  I should have clarified that better.  Thanks!

Julie

np. God, I hope the situation you discussed happens one day. Early intervention would eliminate the need for so many surgeries and painful procedures such as electrolysis. Really the only thing left would be bottom surgery (which may be greatly aided by early HRT in ftms). It would prevent so much unnecessary suffering for transsexuals. What would it be like to grow up in a world where this was just seen as a routine, treatable medical condition?

I know some MTFs who have paid out over $100K for their surgeries.  I read that FTM bottom surgery could exceed that amount alone.  Besides the cost there's the emotional distress.  Imagine growing up in your real gender, not worrying about being different, not worrying about being accepted.  And your body develops just like the rest of the girls or boys.  Only one thing to address, the bottom.

If you look at all the costs, the pain, the emotional distress, early intervention is worth it even if there's a few wrong diagnoses.  Right now we've got it about 1% correct.  I think we can do better than that.

Julie

Quote from: finewine on October 16, 2009, 01:19:07 PM
I don't like cats.  There's nothing more satisfying than the "thwap *screeeooow* !" of a good sound connection between leathered foot and cats arse.


Yes, I'm just kidding

Ohh.... :) good job you're kidding... I LOVE cats!


As for the stealth things.... well, frankly, its not a choice... its my normal life... I'm just living how I was meant to be, being 'out' would take a lot of cosious effort! I just have too much to do without it. And isnt 'normal' life why we transition? to stop being abnormal and disfunctional and become who we're meant to be and functional?

Again, I haven't read every post (sorry)-----but it might be constructive if those who really believe that they are truly stealth explain how they accomplished it. I am not being facetious. I know people who can only dream of living stealth, so what are the keys for how you are doing it.

Thanks

Wake up, get dressed.... generally the best start.

Although it depends on age of transition, files on you, data, no employment history helps... a degree in a female name....

same boat as matilda... though around 11 years earlier on in her time scale... with our situation and transition age.... well, stealth is reality, not just a dream. Without those records and details, things become possible.

Thanks, but is there anybody who had a life in their birth gender including documents, transcripts, resumes, marriages,etc who has gone effectively stealth? I never will because if for no other reason, I've given newspaper interviews and they are links for years.

Dunno... probably not... But what depth of stealth do we mean? the 'no way anyone can know' way, or the 'people just dont know' way?

Hell you could go to Zimbabwe and herd sheep without anyone ever knowing.... but then you could work for the LAPD and have it all on record... Paperwork trails are what out people at this level.... if you have paperwork, and want to be stealth, get a job without any.... then its totally irelevant.

Quote from: xsocialworker on October 16, 2009, 06:38:04 PM
Thanks, but is there anybody who had a life in their birth gender including documents, transcripts, resumes, marriages,etc who has gone effectively stealth? I never will because if for no other reason, I've given newspaper interviews and they are links for years.

I think folks like that would find it very hard.  I was very active early in transition and while I've stayed out of the limelight I also stayed in the community where I transitioned so I was fairly well known around town.  It hasn't caused any problems for me and as the years fall by the wayside, so will folks memories.  I don't advertise but I can't consider myself stealth.  The most important issue to me is not wether I'm stealth(y) but wether I'm happy.  And the answer to that is easy - I'm very happy and that's what matters :)

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 16, 2009, 08:02:35 PM
... The most important issue to me is not wether I'm stealth(y) but wether I'm happy.  And the answer to that is easy - I'm very happy and that's what matters :)

-={LR}=-

And that is all that matters, LR


Janet

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 16, 2009, 08:02:35 PMThe most important issue to me is not wether I'm stealth(y) but wether I'm happy.

Seconded.

Happiness is what we all aspire to.  Happy is what we are after we transition but that's not what's being asked.

Quote from: xsocialworker on October 16, 2009, 06:38:04 PM
is there anybody who had a life in their birth gender including documents, transcripts, resumes, marriages,etc who has gone effectively stealth? I never will because if for no other reason, I've given newspaper interviews and they are links for years.

I don't believe that stealth has anything to do with being post-operative.  I was stealth to a certain extent long before I had GRS  My definition of Stealth has to do with being indistinguishable from other females in appearance, assimilation & history.  By history I mean any paper trails & documentation that could out you as trans.   Let me explain, as a woman that's had FFS I pass perfectly but if I were to apply for new employment, open an acct, buy a car, a home, my former identity (credit references, background) would be revealed in an instant with a big fat M.  Unfortunately I didn't transition until I was 28 & I had some history as my former identity.  By that scenario I'm not completely stealth in Switzerland (my native country), but where I live now there's no paper documentation that could link me to a former identity, so here I'm wholly stealth.

Anxiety of this is a significant reason (not the only one to be sure) that older transitioners populate recovery centers. The dual diagnosis of G.I.D. ( if we accept it is a diagnosis) and substance abuse is a common occurrance. It funds CSAT programs coast to coast

Quote from: xsocialworker on October 16, 2009, 04:50:03 PM
Again, I haven't read every post (sorry)-----but it might be constructive if those who really believe that they are truly stealth explain how they accomplished it. I am not being facetious. I know people who can only dream of living stealth, so what are the keys for how you are doing it.

Thanks

My story's somewhat similar to Blanche's.

Quote from: Leslie on October 01, 2009, 04:10:39 AM
There was a time a few years back when "stealth" was just a dream.  I wasn't "stealth" material if you know what I mean.  But all that changed in an instant.  I was able to move to a different country after I had facial feminization surgery.  I got a marvelous job contract & the opportunity to start my life from scratch.  GRS has opened up new doors for me too.  I can now marry my long time BF & that's something I never thought it could happen. 

Over here I'm only known as a woman not as that "bloke that changed his sex".  People DO treat you different when they only know/perceive you as a woman as opposed to a trans woman.  Whoever says otherwise is deluding themselves or hasn't experienced what I've experienced. I've been on both sides of the fence.  I know.  I can tell the difference.  I'd be the dumbest person on the planet if I were to compromise what I've got.

In my experience the hostility is in reverse.  I dunno what the problem is with some people.  If I say Im stealth, its because I know my life better than anybody else & I know I am.  It bothers me when online strangers presume to know my life better than I do & engage themselves in semantics to discredit my experiences.  Its rude when people tell me [you cant be stealth because I cannot be] or ask me [are you sure you are stealth?] like Im some idiot that doesnt know the differences between stealth, semi-stealth & out & proud.  I mean come on.

Quote from: Blanche on October 16, 2009, 11:28:53 PM
Happiness is what we all aspire to.  Happy is what we are after we transition but that's not what's being asked.

Well if anyone has any hostility towards me for living my life in a way that makes me happy, they are going to have to figure out how to deal with it or just decide to live with it.  I lived my life in a way I thought would make others happy for plenty long.  Now it's my turn to be happy.  The first half of my life I gave to my family.  This half is mine.

Julie

Quote from: Yvonne on October 17, 2009, 02:02:37 PM
In my experience the hostility is in reverse.  I dunno what the problem is with some people.  If I say Im stealth, its because I know my life better than anybody else & I know I am.  It bothers me when online strangers presume to know my life better than I do & engage themselves in semantics to discredit my experiences.  Its rude when people tell me [you cant be stealth because I cannot be] or ask me [are you sure you are stealth?] like Im some idiot that doesnt know the differences between stealth, semi-stealth & out & proud.  I mean come on.

Totally agree.... The only visible hostility I EVER see regarding the subject of stealth, is TO those that are stealth.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 17, 2009, 03:29:08 PM
Totally agree.... The only visible hostility I EVER see regarding the subject of stealth, is TO those that are stealth.

From here on the sidelines I have to say I've seen hostility in both directions.  I agree with Yvonne's previous comment about semantic quibbling but see that in both directions too.  In fact, virtually all the hostility that I've seen has been largely triggered by semantic quibbling; some who seem to try and undermine the stealthy and some others who identify as "stealth" being aggressively parochial about who and what the term encompasses.

Having said that, for all the dialogue the topic has created on this thread, the participants in hostility seem to be a consistent minority of individuals, so it may be that the emotion of the problem makes it seem larger than it really is?  *shrug*

well lets be fair.... for a concept to exist, it must have boundaries... such is the nature of a concept.

If its a potato, its a potato,  and an apple isnt a potato..... A sand line must be drawn somewhere to say 'anything past here is stealth, anything before is not. Yes, its discrimination. Oh well.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 17, 2009, 06:12:50 PM
well lets be fair.... for a concept to exist, it must have boundaries... such is the nature of a concept.

True but boundaries don't have to be high resolution - they can be fuzzy.  I think the problem is simply that humans are analytically categorizing animals and so some people tend to have a (somewhat bizarre) attachment to whatever "mental filing scheme" they use.

If you want a really bizarre example, the L.G.B.T.Q.Q.I.A. acronym seems to be a poster child.  Talk about an over-rotation on making sure everyones parochial classifiers get a mention - and I'm sure there'll be some whack-job somewhere who starts a flame war over whose letters come first! :)
 

Quote
If its a potato, its a potato,  and an apple isnt a potato..... A sand line must be drawn somewhere to say 'anything past here is stealth, anything before is not. Yes, its discrimination. Oh well.

hehe... I'd probably describe it more like an argument over whether a banana is a fruit or a herb (it's both, depending on which bit of the banana you're talking about: the berry or the plant).

Just because a borderline is distinctive and un fuzzy, doesnt mean the land beyond it must be also...

TO THE FAR RIGHT EXTREMISTS, THIS IS JUST LIKE AN ANT WAR . REALLY IMPORTANT TO THE ANTS, BUT NOT TO A SHOE OR A TIRE TRUCK ROLLING OVER THE CONFLICT.

mmm Capitals.... serious point....


Frankly, I don't give a damn about the far right. At the end of the day, we will most likely fight eachother for ever. Just because people share a common thing... trans, doesnt mean we all think the same way, or feel the same way. It's like expecting all Clamidia sufferers to love the colour purple....

My 2 cents:
I have to agree that there is a lot of hostility from those who are stealth towards those of us who working our process as best we can given our life circumstances.  As it happens, I just got a total load dumped on me today.  Why?  I think there are several reasons.  First, it seems to be human nature to want to be superior to someone else.  It makes us feel good about our own selves in a convoluted sort of way.  Just like there are bullies in every walk of life and every organization, there are trans-bullies out there.  I see these people as the least secure in who they are.  Second, I think some of it comes from a refusal to try to walk in someone else's shoes.  I hear it said, "If I can do it,  ______ can too."  That is likely total nonsense.  We all have reasons for being where we are in this life.  We just need to respect each other.  Third, I know of some who have a real fear that association with someone else not living in stealth will eventually out them.  To those people I say, either get over it or go away and live your happy life.  That is entirely your choice.  Fourth, I have actually heard it said that if so and so were not so ugly she would have transitioned by now.  It should be obvious how I feel when I hear that.  Fifth, some of it is most likely a reaction to the common misconception espoused by those who claim it is impossible to live in stealth.  Actually, it is not.  Some are doing it very successfully.  Some have for many years. 

Whatever the case, my level of tolerance for hostility, whichever side it comes from, has been dramatically reduced.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Hi just been reading through this thread - not quite all of it...

But a question

Why the drama?

There are those that make up our "community" (and I use that term quite loosely) , some will always be political, and frankly there will be those that aren't.

Stealth is a choice for those that can achieve it; a dream for others who would like to be so, and those that either way just won't be stealth because they want to be out there. 

So what?

Living in New Zealand I have had the pleasure to see some of our older woman, stealth at an early age, come out in there older years to help push through major changes in our society through politics or local community groups.  That is quite awesome and something I think comes to all people at a mature age, I mean that desire to leave a legacy and give back to society in general

Life is never about who or what you are but about what you give.  That doesn't mean you have to be an activist and standing up for rights. You don't have to be stealth either and judge your life by being a total woman or man by society's standards.
It's about being a member of society, everyone makes a difference is just either good or bad – and it will always be personal.

Quote from: wabbit2 on October 21, 2009, 03:35:39 AM... I have had the pleasure to see some of our older woman, stealth at an early age, come out in there older years to help ... I think comes to all people at a mature age, I mean that desire to leave a legacy and give back to society in general...

Funny you should mention that. I am 60, 35.5 years stealth (more or less), and currently considering volunteering to work with young people at the local Rainbow centre. Stealth isn't nearly as important to me now as helping youth.

Quote from: Northern Jane on October 21, 2009, 04:19:40 AM
Funny you should mention that. I am 60, 35.5 years stealth (more or less), and currently considering volunteering to work with young people at the local Rainbow centre. Stealth isn't nearly as important to me now as helping youth.

Awesome! Go for it, you will totally make a difference both for them and you. 

Honestly Kristi, I'm not sure where this hostilitry from those that are stealth comes from.... Most dont really care? Especially not 'bullying' to any extent. I've heard more harsh words and language, coupled with emotional blackmail coming from the activist types really...

Insecure? Perhaps

But let me suggest this....


People out as trans are insecure: They out themselves as a specific label... a 'box' that people automatically classify and deal with. It takes away the need for them to be an individual.... a likable person, and allows them a shield to hide behind.

Those that are stealth in life don't have that shield. Infact, it's probably harder... Your life, your friends, and your emotions are open. You have no front, no 'accepted view of you' for people to judge. You have to make yourself stand out as a person, and for some things... be VERY secure in yourself!

Then again, all of humanity is insecure, trans or not. We all seek the aproval of others, its a communal society, and we like to be liked.... human nature.

Those of us that choose to live the life we dreamed of when we first knew should'nt be labeled this way.... labeling us as the 'hostile' 'bullies' is quite unfair. There are wrongdoers on each side. every side.... ANY side. I think the majority of people here want to live thier lives as they see fit.... however they see fit. Fair fecks to them....

Quote from: Kristi on October 19, 2009, 09:52:41 PM
My 2 cents:
I have to agree that there is a lot of hostility from those who are stealth towards those of us who working our process as best we can given our life circumstances.  As it happens, I just got a total load dumped on me today.  Why?  I think there are several reasons.  First, it seems to be human nature to want to be superior to someone else.  It makes us feel good about our own selves in a convoluted sort of way.  Just like there are bullies in every walk of life and every organization, there are trans-bullies out there.  I see these people as the least secure in who they are.  Second, I think some of it comes from a refusal to try to walk in someone else's shoes.  I hear it said, "If I can do it,  ______ can too."  That is likely total nonsense.  We all have reasons for being where we are in this life.  We just need to respect each other.  Third, I know of some who have a real fear that association with someone else not living in stealth will eventually out them.  To those people I say, either get over it or go away and live your happy life.  That is entirely your choice.  Fourth, I have actually heard it said that if so and so were not so ugly she would have transitioned by now.  It should be obvious how I feel when I hear that.  Fifth, some of it is most likely a reaction to the common misconception espoused by those who claim it is impossible to live in stealth.  Actually, it is not.  Some are doing it very successfully.  Some have for many years. 

Whatever the case, my level of tolerance for hostility, whichever side it comes from, has been dramatically reduced.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 21, 2009, 08:24:33 AM
Those of us that choose to live the life we dreamed of when we first knew should'nt be labeled this way.... labeling us as the 'hostile' 'bullies' is quite unfair. There are wrongdoers on each side. every side.... ANY side. I think the majority of people here want to live thier lives as they see fit.... however they see fit.

Actually, I agree with you for the most part.  There is hostility both ways.  Of course there should not be, but there is.  Division in the ranks does nothing but weaken our cause.  So it is sad for me to see.  Yet I have experienced it from both ways, one wanting me to be this, another wanting me to be something else.  I am just me and dealing with my life the way I have to, given the cards that were dealt. 

The question, however, was about one particular direction this was going.  That was what I was trying to answer.  So don't think my comments labeled one side as worse than the other.  It was not intended that way.

One of my dearest friends is completely stealth and I am so happy for her.  She has been a big help to me.  I hope to join her, but do not know if I will be able to.  Only time will tell.  And just as I would never tell anyone how they should deal with being trans, I don't think anyone has the right to tell me either.  Most, thankfully, have no interest in doing so.


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

there will always be division in the ranks... we're only human.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 21, 2009, 08:24:33 AM
Honestly Kristi, I'm not sure where this hostilitry from those that are stealth comes from....

{snip}

People out as trans are insecure: They out themselves as a specific label... a 'box' that people automatically classify and deal with. It takes away the need for them to be an individual.... a likable person, and allows them a shield to hide behind.

Nothing to add here, I'm sure you see the point I'm making without me having to point it out.

Quote from: Miniar on October 21, 2009, 09:06:58 AM
Nothing to add here, I'm sure you see the point I'm making without me having to point it out.

Miniar, I was reading that post too and was thinking the same thing!

No offense to all the stealth/non-stealth peeps out there, but most humans like their boxes. ;)

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 21, 2009, 08:24:33 AMPeople out as trans are insecure: They out themselves as a specific label... a 'box' that people automatically classify and deal with. It takes away the need for them to be an individual.... a likable person, and allows them a shield to hide behind.

Those that are stealth in life don't have that shield. Infact, it's probably harder... Your life, your friends, and your emotions are open. You have no front, no 'accepted view of you' for people to judge. You have to make yourself stand out as a person, and for some things... be VERY secure in yourself!

Maybe I'm dense or am reading this totally wrong but what I read here seems completely contrary to what I know and see when interacting with anyone trans - stealth, out and everything in between, as well as with what I know a "secure person" to mean.  Let me explain...

If you're out, there is nothing to hide behind.  You are totally exposed.  Everyone knows your stuff before they even know you.  And, considering the negative stigma, you are severely disadvantaged.  There is no social benefit to being out other than to be a pioneer and educate the world in hopes of changing the negative stigma.

In talking to friends who are imperceptible, I have heard time and time again that when the world sees them as the women they are, they are not discriminated against.  People don't interact with them through prejudice.  There are no funny looks, no snickers, no sidelong glances and certainly no harassing or physical harm.  And there's no way they will out themselves.  To maintain this life they have to hide their past.

When you can stand up to all the crap that comes with being identified as trans, you are pretty secure with yourself because, for the most part, you stand alone.  When you have to integrate within an accepted group and hide part of who you are for fear of discrimination, well... that is not the definition of a secure person.  Secure comes from the Latin word securus, se meaning without and curus meaning care - without a care.  Those living in stealth fear discovery.

Now, this is based on personal experience and the experience of friends.  And there's definitions that can change from person to person.  But considering the likely response of the average person or group I think most would agree you have to be a pretty strong and independent person to be out.

For me, while I never out myself (there's no benefit), I don't fear being outed.  If a document or someone I know outs me, I won't shrink, cower or be crushed.  I'll just acknowledge it just like I would if someone asked me if I color my hair.  It's really no big deal and if you have a problem with it, it's your problem, not mine.

But when I looked back at my earlier days, pre-coming out to those who know me, I lived in fear of being outed, being discovered.  I remember the times the blood would rush to my face when I even suspected someone knew "my secret".  And I know of stealth women who say the same thing when their past is suspected.  Their secret is their past and they fear being outed.  One woman wanted to kill herself because, after 15 years of being stealth, someone clocked her.  I wouldn't call her secure.

By my definition, someone who is secure with themselves is unaffected by the opinions or reactions of others no matter what it is about them that is suspected or known.

Julie

QuoteIn talking to friends who are imperceptible, I have heard time and time again that when the world sees them as the women they are, they are not discriminated against.  People don't interact with them through prejudice.  There are no funny looks, no snickers, no sidelong glances and certainly no harassing or physical harm.  And there's no way they will out themselves.  To maintain this life they have to hide their past.

I am finding that (in my life at least) there is a stage beyond what  you describe, a time when a person has been so deeply integrated for so long that you no longer feel the need to "hide". I have been "stealth" for 35 years and for the last 5 years or so I don't care that much about "stealth". I KNOW what I am - just a woman who survived an ugly childhood - all my friends know what I am and I don't care what others think.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 21, 2009, 08:24:33 AM
Honestly Kristi, I'm not sure where this hostilitry from those that are stealth comes from.... Most dont really care? Especially not 'bullying' to any extent. I've heard more harsh words and language, coupled with emotional blackmail coming from the activist types really...

Insecure? Perhaps

But let me suggest this....


People out as trans are insecure: They out themselves as a specific label... a 'box' that people automatically classify and deal with. It takes away the need for them to be an individual.... a likable person, and allows them a shield to hide behind.

Those that are stealth in life don't have that shield. Infact, it's probably harder... Your life, your friends, and your emotions are open. You have no front, no 'accepted view of you' for people to judge. You have to make yourself stand out as a person, and for some things... be VERY secure in yourself!

Then again, all of humanity is insecure, trans or not. We all seek the aproval of others, its a communal society, and we like to be liked.... human nature.

Those of us that choose to live the life we dreamed of when we first knew should'nt be labeled this way.... labeling us as the 'hostile' 'bullies' is quite unfair. There are wrongdoers on each side. every side.... ANY side. I think the majority of people here want to live thier lives as they see fit.... however they see fit. Fair fecks to them....

That really resonates with my own realizations. 

In looking back on my transition, my greatest regret was talking to nons about my transition.  It equated to educating my oppressors.  Now that I have realized the error of my ways, I see that others are continuing to educate my oppressors for me.  They don't even realize the harm they are causing or the roadblocks they are erecting for themselves.

Anyway...  Being the "Token Transsexual", was a way to demand fair treatment.  Who is going to risk being that non-politically correct except for free agents and the absolutely worst people?  Throwing out the "transsexual" card is a way to avoid normal social interactions.  It is a way to avoid being known as a person or as a woman.  In some ways being token trans is like being larger than life but in other ways it is a way of insulating one's self from life.  That is my experience anyway.

I'm uncomfortable with the word "stealth"..  I'm a woman.  I've always been female & I live a woman's life, there's no "hiding", there's no "I was a man".  For me, saying those things would be a lie.

Also I'm not clear about what "stealth" post-operative peeps are supposed to be "fighting for".  Hasn't society already given us our rights as the gender we are when we had GRS?   I'm a woman legally, I can marry a man anytime I want to & nobody will blink twice.  To the world I'm a woman in every aspect.  I don't demand acceptance or tolerance.  The world sees me and treats me as any other woman because I AM a woman & that's all there's to it.  I agree with Blanche that those seeking special laws are those who are mainly homosexual & are not yet transitioned.  If my legal rights were violated, I'd be out there fighting for them too.  The only thing I wouldn't do is to tell others that don't have a stake on that to "join" me.  That's just dumb not to mention offensive.

Quote from: Northern Jane on October 21, 2009, 12:07:22 PM
I am finding that (in my life at least) there is a stage beyond what  you describe, a time when a person has been so deeply integrated for so long that you no longer feel the need to "hide". I have been "stealth" for 35 years and for the last 5 years or so I don't care that much about "stealth". I KNOW what I am - just a woman who survived an ugly childhood - all my friends know what I am and I don't care what others think.

Agreed.  That's called adaptation.  Not too many peeps get to that point.  A person needs to have transitioned young & lived as female for years for adaptation to take place.  My apologies for beating a dead horse here but peeps that transition at an old age can't grasp this concept. Few are those peeps that transition at an old age & can adapt fully.  "Passing" doesn't equate adaptation btw.  I know many older women who pass well because they've had FFS but they normally complain of being outed instantly because they can't establish a conversation among other natal females, too many years of assimilation under the wrong gender role is the problem.  Not even FFS can undo that.

Quote from: Julie Wilson on October 21, 2009, 06:22:25 PMAnyway...  Being the "Token Transsexual", was a way to demand fair treatment.  Who is going to risk being that non-politically correct except for free agents and the absolutely worst people?  Throwing out the "transsexual" card is a way to avoid normal social interactions.  It is a way to avoid being known as a person or as a woman.  In some ways being token trans is like being larger than life but in other ways it is a way of insulating one's self from life.  That is my experience anyway.

Where do you live?  I'm moving there!

The idea that outing yourself in order to get PC protected treatment?  I don't know anywhere being trans will get people to treat you better, not even in LGBT environments.  My employer had no problem forgetting everything I had ever done, demoting me, cutting my pay then showing me the door after I came out.  Politically correct?  They never gave it a thought.  In the world where I live if you're trans you are a leper.

So let me know where you live.  I'm serious.  Because it's gotta be a place that's more progressive than any I have ever heard of and a hell of a lot better than any place I know.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Wilson on October 21, 2009, 06:22:25 PM

That really resonates with my own realizations. 

In looking back on my transition, my greatest regret was talking to nons about my transition.  It equated to educating my oppressors.  Now that I have realized the error of my ways, I see that others are continuing to educate my oppressors for me.  They don't even realize the harm they are causing or the roadblocks they are erecting for themselves.

Anyway...  Being the "Token Transsexual", was a way to demand fair treatment.  Who is going to risk being that non-politically correct except for free agents and the absolutely worst people?  Throwing out the "transsexual" card is a way to avoid normal social interactions.  It is a way to avoid being known as a person or as a woman.  In some ways being token trans is like being larger than life but in other ways it is a way of insulating one's self from life.  That is my experience anyway.

All across America there are substance abuse programs, HIV/AIDS Awareness programs, university counseling programs, GLBT centers, and other agencies funded by grants from the government and corporations like American Airlines and HBO. These programs sometimes focus on the TG community.  If one gets invited to teach counseling students on how to work with TG people in any program or for instance go into prisons to teach staff how to deal with TG inmates in an ethical way, it kinda helps to be honest about one's own status.

---

Post Merge: October 21, 2009, 09:07:54 PM

---

Throwing out the transgender card is pretty well a job requirement when accepting a job to do outreach and community education. The only group it isolates one from is the "stealth sorority" who stay away from one like the plague. If one thinks that the only tg people who do this work only do so cause they don't pass-----think again.

I sure don't think that xsocialworker....  I did a little work like that myself early on... I was with my university's lgbt, and did a talk for the phone listening service on how to deal with trans stuff.... it was funny, because i expected them to know... only to ge a girl come up to me after and ask how i knew so much about trans issues... and did I have a relative?

One doesnt NEED to be out to educate... it may help some situations, but anyone can stand up for trans people... not just trans people.... The more people 'not percived as trans', natal or otherwise, that stick up for trans people. the more likely OTHER non trans people are to think.... and agree, and perhaps follow suit....

otherwise its preaching to the choir.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 22, 2009, 08:53:04 AMOne doesnt NEED to be out to educate...

That's true but, based on what I've seen, read and experienced personally, coming out to someone who has no clue you had a different gender past can be pretty powerful.  Many people think a transwoman is just a man in a dress who had some surgery.  Letting them see many of us are imperceptible from natal females can do a lot more than words alone towards eradicating the ignorance.

Julie

All I  can tell you about that is that I am not talking about being a one or two time guest lecturer. I mean those people who hold caseworker, supervisor, or agency head positions in programs specifically targeting tg people like the Gay and Lesbian Center in NYC. The concept is that transpeople at risk need to see a transperson as part of the helping process. This concept has always applied to any minority. What would a Jewish Community Center be like if all the staff took non-jewish names and claimed to be born CHRISTIAN.

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 22, 2009, 09:08:42 AMLetting them see many of us are imperceptible from natal females can do a lot more than words alone towards eradicating the ignorance.

Not until we can get the fruitcakes off Jerry Springer!

I KNOW THAT PLENTY OF OF NON-TRANS PEOPLE DO VERY EFFECTIVE WORK IN SOCIAL WORK OR COUNSELING WITH TRANSPEOPLE. BUT IF YOU ARE TRANS, TO WORK IN THIS FIELD AND HIDE IT IS TO MY MIND------------HIGHLY UNETHICAL

Quote from: xsocialworker on October 22, 2009, 09:09:41 AM
All I  can tell you about that is that I am not talking about being a one or two time guest lecturer. I mean those people who hold caseworker, supervisor, or agency head positions in programs specifically targeting tg people like the Gay and Lesbian Center in NYC. The concept is that transpeople at risk need to see a transperson as part of the helping process. This concept has always applied to any minority. What would a Jewish Community Center be like if all the staff took non-jewish names and claimed to be born CHRISTIAN.

Ok, first off... I wasn't out to play the whos got the biggest E-P.... Deepest E-vagina?
I don't really mind what you do, i was making a point about perception.

Yes, some trans people at risk need to see trans people, I doubt that will change. BUT the more people that understand trans issues and apear to be non trans can have a ballencing effect in removing thatr risk... if more 'normal people' dont see a problem with it... the biggots stand out and fade out faster.

I'm not saying that Jews should take christian names to promote Judaism, (following your metaphor) if you think that, you missed my point.

Also, stop using capitals.... it doesn't make anyone listen any more... or belive you more. It just annoys people... and secondly, Trans status working with trans people in counceling or social work has no relation to ethics. If a non trans person can work with trans people, how does it matter if a trans person does it and doesnt reveal that? They would just come accross much more understanding and more effective at the job.

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 22, 2009, 09:16:59 AMIf a non trans person can work with trans people, how does it matter if a trans person does it and doesnt reveal that? They would just come accross much more understanding and more effective at the job.

Before I came out at work I was an understanding non-trans person.  I'd say I "reached" maybe 2 people in 30 years.  If the subject didn't come up, you just didn't talk about it.  It wasn't part of anyone's life. 

After I came out I opened the eyes of an entire company and a lot of local union members.  I had fellow workers say before I came out they never even thought about what trans lives could be like.  It wasn't on their radar.  And many thanked me for educating them, and all I did was come out.

Most of the people in my company and my local didn't even want to talk about TGs.  They didn't know any so why waste their time?  But they were at times joke fodder. 

In my career I've worked with more than a thousand people face to face.  Probably as much as a third found out about my transition.  And, from the feedback I got after coming out, no one had a clue.  So it became the shot heard around the world and it was now on everyone's radar.  And I'll bet a lot of people were second guessing their beliefs about TGs.

I could never have accomplished that by simply being understanding.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 22, 2009, 09:08:42 AM
That's true but, based on what I've seen, read and experienced personally, coming out to someone who has no clue you had a different gender past can be pretty powerful.  Many people think a transwoman is just a man in a dress who had some surgery.  Letting them see many of us are imperceptible from natal females can do a lot more than words alone towards eradicating the ignorance.

Julie

To a certain extent I agree with your comments Julie.

As the Safety Manager of a large transportation company I work in close contact with many agencies who I need to deal with and who are customers of our company.  When collisions occur involving our vehicles I'm on the scene working with police and ems services investigating the collisions, determining causes, and solutions aimed at prevention.  Likewise I work daily with our drivers either in a classroom setting or one-on-one monitoring, teaching or evaluating.  I also meet with customers to discuss concerns they may have with regard to safe passenger transport.  I do this as a woman, in a field normally staffed by males, and (this is where we differ) I do this having to contend with and convince others that women are quite capable if not better at doing this type of work.  I don't have to reveal or declare that I am a woman as it quite apparent to all, and all can see that (so far) the quality of work, the output and results meet or exceed what my job requires.

While I will not reveal my trans past, I would not deny it either if it became a concern of those I deal with.  Women with trans pasts often face two battles.  Firstly female equality in the workplace.  I'm not talking about feminism simply the same pay for the same work that men do.  Of course the second battle we have is showing society that just because we have a different past doesn't make us second class citizens who have to fight for rights and freedoms etc.  Luckily I'm fortunate to live in Canada where my rights and freedoms are protected and I was a part of bringing that about, albeit in a small way. (I did my part)

I try to be as stealthy as I can given the circumstances but as many in my position have said I didn't transition to be a transsexual woman, I transitioned to be the woman I am.  I like to think that those who I've dealt with and were pleased with what I did would be pleasantly surprised if they found out about my background afterward, something like "Wow, no kidding she's a transsexual?  I would never have known."  I don't have to worry about those who are not pleased, as they don't exist.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 22, 2009, 12:11:09 PM
(this is where we differ) I do this having to contend with and convince others that women are quite capable if not better at doing this type of work.  I don't have to reveal or declare that I am a woman as it quite apparent to all

We're not differing at all.  I agree with your statement.  As far as revealing that you are a woman, it is, as you said, quite obvious, as is one's skin color and other obvious physical traits.

So you doing the job you're doing will automatically speak well for women and other women will (hopefully) benefit.  The same would be true if you came out as trans, or, if you we're bipolar, came out as bipolar.

If you are part of a discriminated class and you buck conventional wisdom in a positive way, those like you will always benefit, to some degree or another if you are "out".  The question is, is it worth it to someone to be "out" just so others benefit?  Usually not.  There has to be something one would gain personally, even if it's just personal satisfaction.

I am by no means telling anyone they should out themselves.  I thought coming out would not hurt me (at least that's what HR told me) but it ended my career and I lost a job I really loved.  I would never suggest anyone make that kind of sacrifice.  But I feel those who do, help to end the ignorance and (fingers crossed) someday eliminate the stigma.

Julie

As Barney Frank said at a townhall meeting. "talking to you Madam is like taliking to a dining room table" to paraphrase. I don't care who does stealth and who doesn't. Trying to explain how the field of providing services to transpeople works seems to be be going nowhere. I'm done. I just have one question for some of you. If you were seeing a psychologist you thought was genetic and discussing your gender issues, wouldn't you feel just had a little bit "had"  if you found out later that she was trans? Don't answer!

I'm afraid I will answer....

What Does one wish to achive from therpay? one wishes resolution to the issue that brought one to that situation. Frankly, I wouldnt give a monkeys if they were trans or not if they helped me... isnt that a tad hypocritical on your part?

Pot... kettle?

Quote from: The None Blonde on October 26, 2009, 07:04:23 AM
I'm afraid I will answer....

What Does one wish to achive from therpay? one wishes resolution to the issue that brought one to that situation. Frankly, I wouldnt give a monkeys if they were trans or not if they helped me... isnt that a tad hypocritical on your part?


The only response I have for this post is to suggest spelling lessons








Pot... kettle?

That's extremely mature xSocialworker.... I made one or two errors, that I will now apologise for. (I got Acyrlic nails for my birthday.... bitch to type with at the speed I do.)

Please defer from attacking the poster, and deal with my comments.

I suggested your post was hypocritical. The phrasing of that post... well, I could have expected it from John or Jane trans ignorant-doe.

Why do you feel this way? I'm genuinely curious why someone who professes to help trans people feels such a way about those that dont want to have it known, yet still help.

OK-------one more time.

1) Yes it is possible to help transpeople without disclosing one is also trans. Maybe in a private practice or doing something that doesn't require intense interaction like conducting a class on "Safer Sex" in a homeless shelter that might include transpeople.

2) Historically, programs that focus on helping any minority community have tried to obtain staff from that community. The transgender community is just one. The leaders of the NAACP did include Caucasians, but it was and is primarily African-American. Haddassah is Jewish. The head on the HRC is "out". The head of the NCTE is "out". I could refer you to multiple books on the subject or put you in contact with some of these programs, many government funded and you could explore it in depth. If you live in the New York area, the Gay and Lesbian Center would be a good start. If you are in or around Houston, DC, SF, or any big city I could find you someone to talk to.

3) Maybe you don't need it, but research shows that having openly transpeople on a staff can attract new transgender clients. Could you imagine a women's shelter with an all male staff?

Wow, what a huge discussion.

My take on this is that everyone one of us should be able to live our life the way we want to. If that is stealth, half stealth, no stealth, whatever. We should all respect each other's decisions. Some can be activists and some not. Just like every other person on the planet. Just because were have Gender issues doesn't mean we should be required to be an activist.

hugs to everyone

I was hired in 2002 to work for a Federally funded program because I am a social worker and "out" to the professional community. The program was funded by SAMHSA and the purpose was to attract lower income transpeople to this program. We offered free counseling,HIV/AIDS testing, and the first transfriendly homeless shelter and recovery center between Richmond and Miami. I did training for the State on working with transpeople in the court and prison system. I never felt that I was a token anything and if I was, so what. Jackie Robinson could be called a token and was by his detractors ( not to compare what he went through to what I did which was virtually nothing.)

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Post Merge: October 27, 2009, 05:58:16 AM

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I got paid to be "out" in the social work community. I never said everybody should be "out".

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Post Merge: October 27, 2009, 07:03:23 AM

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Just for the record, I try very hard to be "passable" in the rest of my life. Also, research has shown that "out" transgender professionals have a better chance of reaching an audience if they don't create cognitive dissonance. Rosalyn Blumenstein discusses this in her book "Branded T". She was the director at the Gay and Lesbian Center in NYC before moving to LA.

I agree!
Everyone should make their own choices.

I can understand why a person would choose stealth, and the only thing I've ever said about their choices is "I wouldn't make them". Which is perfectly reasonable. I'm not you, I will never make all the same choices as you.

In fact, most non-stealth/out people I've seen have made the choice to express their reasons why they are out, and state that they couldn't make the same choices as those that are stealth.
So Far, I've never seen an out person say that stealth persons are "wrong" or sit and wonder why stealth people would make that choice in a derogatory fashion. I've seen them say "I couldn't do that because it would feel like X to me" where X is any set of words that imply deception or hiding or whatnot.
This is not the same thing as "stealth = X", it is a voicing of what it would feel like to the person that is choosing not to be stealth. There's a Vast difference between the two.

In return, I've seen, repeated posts where stealth folk sit and wonder about out folk with phrases like "they're all" and "they want" and "they think".
"I think/feel/want" is out the question, replaced with "they".
And that's usually heavily laden with insults of characters or integrity or even sanity of the out person.

I'm not saying that all stealth people do X and all out people do Y. I'm saying that this is what I've seen so far.
_

Secondly.
On the topic of advocating equal rights and so on and so forth.
If you don't want to be a public figure who fights for the rights of something you know, then don't.

Don't fool yourself. You'll never be as powerful a figure in support of a minority as "ordinary, average person off the street" as "out and proud member of the minority".
Everyone can help, but not everyone can stand up and go "look, when you see me you see a woman, but.. it wasn't always so".
People have a hard time accepting something they don't "know" and without out post-transition people, people don't "know" how normal post-transition folk are.

But that's not your problem.
If you don't want to be that out person, that's your choice and we'll respect that choice.

The problem comes in when you misrepresent your choice, and even worse, misrepresent other people's choices.
Everyone can help, but a stealthed post-transition woman won't be able to help more than your average cisgendered woman.
And to suggest that those that are out are out for anything other than the reasons they give is rude.

Excelent sentiments Miniar.... I totally agree with that synopsis.

Quote from: xsocialworker on October 27, 2009, 06:36:58 AM
OK-------one more time.

1) Yes it is possible to help transpeople without disclosing one is also trans. Maybe in a private practice or doing something that doesn't require intense interaction like conducting a class on "Safer Sex" in a homeless shelter that might include transpeople.

2) Historically, programs that focus on helping any minority community have tried to obtain staff from that community. The transgender community is just one. The leaders of the NAACP did include Caucasians, but it was and is primarily African-American. Haddassah is Jewish. The head on the HRC is "out". The head of the NCTE is "out". I could refer you to multiple books on the subject or put you in contact with some of these programs, many government funded and you could explore it in depth. If you live in the New York area, the Gay and Lesbian Center would be a good start. If you are in or around Houston, DC, SF, or any big city I could find you someone to talk to.

3) Maybe you don't need it, but research shows that having openly transpeople on a staff can attract new transgender clients. Could you imagine a women's shelter with an all male staff?

I'm not in america.

And My point was in reference to your comment on 'being stealth and helping someone trans in a therapy setting, (IE, the therapist is transsexual, but stealth,) helping a transgender individual, is unethical.

So far, you've politically told us everything about how amazing you are... how out you are, and all about how being out is great. Fine, thats cool... I'm glad you work hard at this... someone needs to. My question is WHY is it unethical, to be trans, not tell someone trans you're trans, and help them?

Are non trans people not allowed to help trans people? I didn't say exlusively non trans, but you make a distinction... Can you reply to that?

Overall i think this is coasting merrily off topic.  The original post was that apparently stealth people are hostile towards those that are out. Stealth people and others feel out people are hostile towards them. Well, we all seem to be hostile, or the other side claims we are....

Why don't we try something odd, like.... live and let live?

QuoteWhy don't we try something odd, like.... live and let live?

My point exactly. If you are stealth, I am happy for you.  That is your choice. 
If you are not stealth, I am happy for you. Thai is your choice.

I am not stealth for a number of reason.  Call them excuse if you wish.  The only thing I don't like is the 'Holier than Thou' attitude each side seems to have.  We are family here and ...



Janet

To be honest, I don't really care how anyone else lives thier life, as long as i can live mine the way I want...

husband

2 kids

labrador

the Rangerover

the house in the country....


The rest.... well, I'll make it up as I go along.

Life is too short to tell everyone else how to live thiers, your own is getting cold!

Amen, Sister. Amen


Janet

None Blonde is right. I am amazing . That is incredibly perceptive.  Other than that, her hostility is typical of a teen-ager crying for attention. How lucky to be TS, young, blonde, and not in America

Heh, I thought 'the none blonde' would be a give away there...

Hostile? TS = lucky? A lapse in your incredible judgement otherwise honey.

Okay kids, take it outside...

This has ceased to be a discussion about ideas and is about name calling. As I am retired and TNB is supposedly in another country, continuing this debate is a useless waste of time and I'm done. If TNB thinks I am full of it, then so be it. Just like the Reublicans in the health care debate, TNB has not presented any concrete plan on how to run an outreach program to any minority without anyone on staff identifying with the group.

Ok, I guess Julie's post about taking it outside wasn't clear enough.

Topic locked for 24 hours.

Sarah L.