Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Last night Julie and I did something we rarely do, we went to a popular TG monthly meeting.  It's held at a bar just outside of Chicago and has a mix of CDs, TGs and, in the case of last night's attendees, TSs.  And there's also the occasional ->-bleeped-<-.

I can handle the ->-bleeped-<-s.  I've had enough experience and I think I now put off vibes that let them know they are wasting their time.  But for Julie, it's another thing.  She hasn't been in many environments where ->-bleeped-<-s are common so she hasn't had the same exposure as me.

Last night, this apparent CD approaches me and starts asking questions.  There seemed to be a real interest in transitioning and all that it brings.  The CD was a mess, no makeup, very obvious beard shadow, wig not even combed, no forms and an ill fitting dress.  I thought this was the first time out but conversation indicated a lot of experience.

A friend comes up to talk and the CD turns to Julie.  In a few minutes Julie had to endure "Well actually I'm a ->-bleeped-<-."  "I'm really interested in you two."  "How long did it take to act female?" and more.

It was the end of the night and Julie gave me "that look" and I knew she was being hassled so we left.  On the way home she told me how this guy, with five kids and a wife, was trying to hit on her and get the two of us to go to bed with him.  Never once did he hit on me, not even close, and he knew Julie and I were a couple, but as soon as I was called away from the conversation he went in for the kill with such turn offs as "I'm really a ->-bleeped-<-, not a crossdresser."

Julie likened it to the pedophile who dresses up like an ice cream man.  But I doubt the pedophile is stupid enough to say, "I'm really a pedophile" when preying on his victims.

No, the guy wasn't a clueless TG at all.  This was very calculated.  He worked to gain my trust by passing off as a confused and curious TG.  That gave Julie a level of comfort because she knows I won't have a long conversation with someone hitting on me.  And when I was pulled away he went for Julie like a cunning predator, hoping to take down two prey at once.  It's difficult to say how much was premeditated, but the way it turned out was almost perfect.

What coursed through my mind is wondering what goes through the mind of a guy like this.  Is he so singularly focused that almost nothing will stop him from achieving his goal?  He wanted sex and worked hard to get it.  He probably hung around us for 45 minutes, maybe more.  It reminded me of the lion stalking its prey, patiently waiting for the right time to strike.

Welcome to Wild Kingdom!

Julie

I don't get out much so there isn't an opportunity for me to experience a ->-bleeped-<-.  Not that I think I am a probable target, but should someone do what Julie experienced, I don't have a clue how I would react.  I think I would most likely be frightened because I don't think anyone would be attracted to me but my major problem would be that I am so naive and lonely that I might fall for it and get into big trouble.

Frankly, this is very unsettling. I'm just starting to go out with friends and last night I was out to dinner with a wonderful friend and her wife.  She and I plan to go out more alone to other things so I can meet people.  Gulp...

Maggie   

If you are out much, you will experience this.  Wish I could have seen Julie handle it, bet no one puts that kind of garbage over on her.  She is one smart woman!  I have had so many online that I have had to limit what I do and where I go, but in person it can certainly be distressing.  Glad you were both together.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Kristi

Wow.  I'm stunned!  What on earth was that person thinking?  I mean...I can't fathom how that approach would ever work anyway!  If it was calculated to come over as very creepy then I guess that was a success! :)

All you have to do is think back to the high school locker room and how guys acted.
Of course they act this way.

From what I have seen, I think they think that you think like they do. They seem to think that if you are into the same things as them that they can say anything and you will be ready and willing for sex with anyone. Trans, lesbian or bi, it doesn't matter so long as you share similar interest in sex (in terms of birth sex or attraction), It's like suddenly you're (almost) "one of the guys".

Wow! That is just too creepy, Julie! I think the pedophile analogy is very accurate as well. 

This is a timely thread for sure. Although I haven't experienced a face to face encounter with a ->-bleeped-<-, I recently have been receiving phone messages left on my office machine. They are from a former employee from years ago who recently came in to my business with a client of mine. When he came in I immediately recognized him, and we said the cordial hello's to each other. Yet, while he was there I noticed he was viewing me in a very disturbing manner. At that time, I thought it might be, he was just trying to adjust to the new "me" and shrugged it off.

Then the phone messages started. The things he said made me literally feel ill. It began with how he secretly wished he could do what I was doing in being myself. That he had "these kind of feelings" and didn't know how to let them out. And he asked to talk with me in private about it. My first thought was "oh my, he trans too! He's looking form some support". And, I actually called and left a message on his phone that he could call me back and we could talk about it. He never called while I was at work, then a week later he called over the weekend again and left the most disturbing message I've ever heard. He was telling me that he had feelings for me and that he wanted to engage in an intimate act with me. He also said that I could rest assured that I would not be harmed............... WTF?............... HARMED?.......... ME?

The message was so disturbing that I still have never finished listening to the entire thing.

A week later, I checked my machine and, sure enough there he was again. This time apologizing for the last call he left. It's been about three weeks since the last one, however, for the time being this girl stays armed while in her office! And, I'm not afraid to use in case it's necessary, (disclaimer: this is not advocacy for 2nd amendment rights or promotion of the use of weapons for self defense. I just feel it's necessary for me in this situation.)

I had been warned by TS friends of mine that I would eventually experience a "->-bleeped-<-", but, I never thought it would be like that! I have the messages stored and my wife knows all about the situation. As well, a close TS friend also knows whats going on. And they know who it is just in case something were to happen.

Who knows what lurks in the minds of people you least suspect? Obviously he's not the sharpest pencil in the box, since he left a (3) voice recording(s) and I have his phone number captured. On top of that he identified himself in the massages.

Just.............iiicckkkk! I felt like I needed a shower to get the filth off of me after listening to them. I get the same feeling just writing about it here!

Be careful out there people!


Dawn

What a lot of ->-bleeped-<-s, if not all, don't get is just because we have the same birth gender as them, we are not men and do not think like men.  I worked in an all male environment (there was the occasional woman but it was rare) and when women aren't present, men talk more freely.  I've heard things few women will ever hear.  I know how men think and I know from the several "admirers*" I've encountered many of them think we think like men.

I heard friend's encounters and I've read enough stories to know there's a totally different dynamic present when a man knows your past.  They act very differently than they do with GGs.  But that shouldn't be surprising because most of society acts differently towards those who have a gender variant life history.

Still, it's a fact of life and any MTF who is interested in men will have the unenviable task of weeding out the predators from the sincere.

Julie

* I use 'admirers' here as a blanket term for any man who is interested in 'gender variant women' for anything from romance to sex.

I wonder if it is that much of a problem for us older gals (58). Seems to me that men my age can't wake up enough to get off the couch let alone chase or stalk.   

Maggie

Having gotten out more and more myself lately, I have discovered my fair share of creepiness. And it isn't any fun. In fact it down right weirds me out. I just don't like it or find it very uncomfortable.

The biggest reason is as Julie has mentioned is the fact that they think that even though we were born men we think like one. We don't. In fact I have come to realize men are really bad at approaching women in general. '->-bleeped-<-s' are even worse.

Quote from: Maggie Kay on October 09, 2009, 01:10:42 PM
I wonder if it is that much of a problem for us older gals (58). Seems to me that men my age can't wake up enough to get off the couch let alone chase or stalk.   

Maggie

I can tell you Maggie, the older guys are definitely out there and on the prowl.  I too am 58 and that hasn't stopped the advances.  One guy who was close to 70 was bold enough to hit on Julie and I looking for a threesome!  And this was in a straight bar.  So don't think your age will stop the suitors.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 09, 2009, 01:33:43 PM
I can tell you Maggie, the older guys are definitely out there and on the prowl.  I too am 58 and that hasn't stopped the advances.  One guy who was close to 70 was bold enough to hit on Julie and I looking for a threesome!  And this was in a straight bar.  So don't think your age will stop the suitors.

Julie

Julie,
Gosh, that is scary. A 70 year old too?

You both are so gorgeous and look much younger than 58 so I assumed when I supposed that I shouldn't have.   Okay, I'll be on my guard.  Thanks.

Maggie

I had a friend, J-, who shared a lot in common with me, both into motorcycles, shooting pellet guns etc. Both into painting his car, we'd go get spray can paint from "Monkey Ward" and paint it up, that was cool. He had a tape of Eddie Murphy's "Raw" and all in all a good bud to hang out with. So one day I'm over at his house and we're talking about stuff, and he says something like, "Hey, what do you say we go in the bedroom and fool around a bit, maybe go at it?" Well, that's how us guys are inclined to ask about things, lol. I said No, not really interested and for the umpteenth time felt that awkwardness, of having a female body and understanding completely why a guy would want to play with me or rather it, but being a guy myself inside. Good old J-, I hope he's doing ok wherever he is.

Now, on ->-bleeped-<-s, I have to admit, I've had a ->-bleeped-<-, at least one! And it creeped me out! Every time I'd go to this one les bar, years ago in S. California, this big tall huge ol' CD or MTF or something along that line, would profess her interest in me etc and this person was always showing up where I was, it was creepy! I stopped going to gay bars for a while because of this, and I'm sure this is something that put me off of the idea of transitioning myself and the whole TG/TS subject.

More recently, circulating around the local les bars and gay center, I've had two more big huge tall MTF's show interest in me, and I mean, come on! They seem to start at 6' and go up from there, I'm 5'4". I like girls, cute little girls, I should say cute LITTLE girls, I really am attracted to girls my height or a bit shorter, not ppl a foot taller and in the case of one, seemingly a foot wider at the shoulders. Augh! In these more recent examples, very nice people, but why infatuated with ME?

I think in all these cases, they were lesbian and attracted to very butch boyish or "handsome" butches, and the motorcycle riding probably didn't hurt. Now that I'm becoming actually male, I may get to be merely a nice guy without this attention.

But that first one who kept showing me, very large imposing person and a bit aggressive, it was creepy! I'm glad they never learned where I live. So I can relate to the "->-bleeped-<-" experience and how intimidating it can be.

i have had 68 0r older men hit on me in gay clubs they are out there and they can be just as ruthless in their persuit

Quote from: Alex_C on October 11, 2009, 05:05:44 AM
But that first one who kept showing me, very large imposing person and a bit aggressive, it was creepy! I'm glad they never learned where I live. So I can relate to the "->-bleeped-<-" experience and how intimidating it can be.

I'd replace creepy with scary.  Someone who can pick you up and carry you off into the alley, and there's nothing you can do about it, now that's scary!  There have been times when someone much larger than me "hovers" over me and the defense mechanisms immediately go up!  Physical confrontation would be pointless so the mind races as it tries to figure an out.

Julie

"I've had two more big huge tall MTF's show interest in me, and I mean, come on! They seem to start at 6' and go up from there, I'm 5'4". I like girls, cute little girls, I should say cute LITTLE girls, I really am attracted to girls my height or a bit shorter, not ppl a foot taller and in the case of one, seemingly a foot wider at the shoulders."

Wow thanks for boosting my self confidence Alex. Unfortunately not everyone can be 5'4". How do you think you'll feel when some girl you like says 'sorry I like guys to be taller than me'?

Believe me Wendy I have to cope everyday with that fact that I'm a short sawed off little runt, who's shorter than not only the average UCSC athletic girl, but her 11-year old lil sis too.

It was a big come down when a gal first told me they just plain needed someone taller and mainly BIGGER than I am, they "needed to feel the weight" as they put it. I understand that now.

And yeah, what I mention above WAS scary, how's a little guy like me supposed to outrun 'em in my little size 5 shoes? No wonder I like fast motorcycles so much.

Quote from: kelliBennett on October 09, 2009, 01:19:02 PM
Having gotten out more and more myself lately, I have discovered my fair share of creepiness. And it isn't any fun. In fact it down right weirds me out. I just don't like it or find it very uncomfortable.

The biggest reason is as Julie has mentioned is the fact that they think that even though we were born men we think like one. We don't. In fact I have come to realize men are really bad at approaching women in general. '->-bleeped-<-s' are even worse.

See... I don't necessarily agree with this sentiment.  I'm not saying you specifically think like a man nor Julie who first made the comment, but in my experience, enough of the trans population does (again speaking from meeting people in RL) that ->-bleeped-<-s have success.  They also have success with TS's needing to validate themselves as females - and the ->-bleeped-<- is all too willing to oblige.

I understand that was a frightening situation for you Alex but my point was that you could have typed your description a little more diplomatically. A lot of people on these boards, especially people who haven't started or who are just starting their transitions are very sensitive about the things they can't change, such as their height, and are very fragile. A year ago I felt like I was Mongo the circus freak because I was 6'1" and 220 lbs with tattoos and reading something like you wrote would  have been crushing to me. Thankfully I have found that neither height, nor weight nor masculine looking tattoos are barriers to passing but I beat myself up a lot about my height before i came to that realization.

And don't worry about being short. One of my old friends who was the toughest guy in the regiment, maybe the toughest guy in the brigade was only 5'2". What he lacked in height he made up for in mean. He never had any problem finding a date. Any woman that won't date someone because of something like lack of height is too shallow to be worth dating anyway.

And as far as disgusting guys go I ran into a real peach this weekend. I was at a club and I was minding my own business taking a breather from dancing when this wanna-be gangster type guy comes over and asks me my name and then flat out says 'so do you want to suck my c*m pole'? I just burst out laughing and he looked offended and went away. I still get an ick feeling when I think about it. I didn't find it funny at the time either, laughing was just a instant reaction to the shock of being so brazenly asked such a disgusting question.

I"m sorry, I guess height is just as sensitive when you have too much!

Lately the big fad in the guy's leather bar I hang out in sometimes (used to go there a lot) is mistaking me for one this one guy M-, who's my height and one of the rare tops, ex-Marine too etc. What's funny is, I know the guy and like him.

LOL on the "wanna suck my..." guy wow. I swear, if we guys knew that line would work we'd use it but most of us are not DOOFUSES who think it would!

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 09, 2009, 12:06:04 PM
What a lot of ->-bleeped-<-s, if not all, don't get is just because we have the same birth gender as them, we are not men and do not think like men.  I worked in an all male environment (there was the occasional woman but it was rare) and when women aren't present, men talk more freely.  I've heard things few women will ever hear.  I know how men think and I know from the several "admirers*" I've encountered many of them think we think like men.

I have this creepy as ->-bleeped-<- coworker who occasionally just talks about raping women. Said he wanted to be a womens' prison guard to do it, and the other day this woman walks by carrying a baby and he goes "Damn that bitch is fine what you say we follow her into the bathroom, knock her out and rape her?"



Somehow I see the first HR complaint I make if/when I transition at work being against him. Luckily the prison comment was made in front of a very well respected professional coworker so it'd be supported if I had to show a history.

That guy is weird, what's wrong with him? I wonder if there are any unsolved rapes in your area?

Quote from: Alex_C on October 13, 2009, 01:55:50 AM
That guy is weird, what's wrong with him? I wonder if there are any unsolved rapes in your area?

Oh my, thats aweful.. Lets hope not.

I've only had little experience with '->-bleeped-<-s' in life. I don't go out much.
Met Plenty online though. They're hillariously confident on the internet  ;D

Quote from: Autumn on October 12, 2009, 04:40:16 PM
I have this creepy as ->-bleeped-<- coworker who occasionally just talks about raping women. Said he wanted to be a womens' prison guard to do it, and the other day this woman walks by carrying a baby and he goes "Damn that bitch is fine what you say we follow her into the bathroom, knock her out and rape her?"


Ah this does not sound normal.

Is there any chance of reporting to the police? This sounds way beyond a sick joke.

IMO
Cindy



Somehow I see the first HR complaint I make if/when I transition at work being against him. Luckily the prison comment was made in front of a very well respected professional coworker so it'd be supported if I had to show a history.

I've only experienced a few trans ->-bleeped-<-s. At the time I was oblivious as to what they wanted and didn't understand why they were interested in me. I wasn't thinking about transition at the time.

Now learning more and reflecting back I'm glad I wasn't raped. But I wasn't afraid of much then.

One guy pulled out a large hunting knife. Before he could say anything, I said "Oh cool" and grabbed it out of his hand and started to play about with it.
He kept grabbing at it saying something about me hurting myself. But clumsy me, I accidentally dropped it and it got stuck in his leg, all the way into the seat cushion of his truck.

For some reason he wanted me to leave and took off in his pick up.

I offered to help him with it

I actually think it probably is pretty normal in poorly educated, ghetto-idolizing, misogynistic young men.

i think you should report him now he may already be operating and he's definately demonstrating a hatred towards women
jessica

You probably should report him if you are still able to do so. I def. don't want anyone to end up with some of the folks I've had to deal with.

I'm older and hopefully a bit wiser now plus most folk where I live now are rather religious so I don't get hit on as much. Figures, now that I've learned to recognize it better  :P

Quote from: Autumn on October 12, 2009, 04:40:16 PM
Somehow I see the first HR complaint I make if/when I transition at work being against him.

The company I used to work for encouraged sexual harassment to be filed by anyone who witnesses it against anyone who is in violation of company policy.  Check your company's policy.  You can probably go ahead and file the complaint yourself right now.  You allowing such talk to go unchecked will only encourage this jerk to keep doing it and someday he may act on it.

Julie

Quote from: interalia on October 12, 2009, 08:18:39 AM
See... I don't necessarily agree with this sentiment.  I'm not saying you specifically think like a man nor Julie who first made the comment, but in my experience, enough of the trans population does (again speaking from meeting people in RL) that ->-bleeped-<-s have success.  They also have success with TS's needing to validate themselves as females - and the ->-bleeped-<- is all too willing to oblige.

I'm not saying there aren't girls out there who want to validate themselves and I am not saying the ->-bleeped-<- won't oblige them. Most women will not go for the crude, creepy, rude approach. Which it seems a lot of ->-bleeped-<-s attempt. Or worse still CDs who pretend (as in Julies story) to be something they are not only in an effort to 'get some'.

It is when I am approached by someone dressed or attempting to dress as a woman, but obviously acting like a man that I get disturbed.

Having seen a lot of men who take the crude approach I understand it is out there. Doesn't mean I like it.

OK I'm gonna venture a theory ..... many guys feel that ciswomen are "hard to get" so the more frustrated types, with more suppressed or not-so-suppressed anger may turn to transwomen as an "easier to get" alternative, but express anger both at themselves for not being able to get a ciswoman, and also at the transwoman for two things: Being a woman, and yet "being someone pretending to be a woman". All in all it's a lot of anger floating around!

Virginia - wow that knife thing ouch! But I'm sure you saved your own life and gave that guy something to think about. I've just had a small bite, a Doberman gave me a little one where two fangs just kinda went in and met, pretty mild as dog bites go, and they had to go in and clean it, and it hurt like heck for a while. That guy's not gonna be able to walk for a while.

Quote from: Alex_C on October 13, 2009, 03:08:34 PM

Virginia - wow that knife thing ouch! But I'm sure you saved your own life and gave that guy something to think about. I've just had a small bite, a Doberman gave me a little one where two fangs just kinda went in and met, pretty mild as dog bites go, and they had to go in and clean it, and it hurt like heck for a while. That guy's not gonna be able to walk for a while.

Yeah, that was about ten years ago before I'd even considered transitioning. But I guess I've always had a fem. persona. Probably his scare tactics had worked on others before. I know I was afraid.

Do you know the ally between the Irish pub and the corner liquor store? Right there behind the liquor store. I think the area has been closed off since. To much stuff was going on around that whole area

I miss Santa Cruz in some ways. Allot of cool folks. Allot of jerks though too

Quote from: Alex_C on October 13, 2009, 03:08:34 PM
OK I'm gonna venture a theory ..... many guys feel that ciswomen are "hard to get" so the more frustrated types, with more suppressed or not-so-suppressed anger may turn to transwomen as an "easier to get" alternative, but express anger both at themselves for not being able to get a ciswoman, and also at the transwoman for two things: Being a woman, and yet "being someone pretending to be a woman". All in all it's a lot of anger floating around!

My own personal experience, coupled with conversations I've had with those in the LBGT community, tells me there are several types of men who are interested in TGs:
1. Men who are gay but can't accept it so they go after gay men in drag (the illusion).
2. Men who are bi or curious and just like the variety.
3. Men who find post-op women a better choice over natal women.  (Think: more in common)
4. Men who are looking to stick their thing in any hole they can find.
5. Men who need a team of shrinks to figure what the hell is going on inside that head.

There's more I'm sure but that covers most of them.

And, of course, all this does nothing to help the woman who just wants to find a man who is interested in her for who she is.  It's the hetero woman's challenge, no matter what their birth gender.

Julie

Virginia my fave bar in Santa Cruz is the Blue Lagoon,  Dive! Dive!

I've heard the Asti's worse though, I think it'd be funny to make an "N" just the right size color and typeface and install it on their sign, so it says "Nasti" lol.

 :laugh: Folks called it the Nasty when I was there too. It seems like almost every place had some kind of nick name though  :laugh:

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 08, 2009, 12:41:58 PM
Last night Julie and I did something we rarely do, we went to a popular TG monthly meeting.  It's held at a bar just outside of Chicago and has a mix of CDs, TGs and, in the case of last night's attendees, TSs.  And there's also the occasional ->-bleeped-<-.

I don't mean for this to sound callused but women go to bars to hook up with men (or lesbians).  That is essentially what a bar is for.  The ->-bleeped-<- was just doing the bar thing.

I am guessing the bar was a gay bar.  If you were a "->-bleeped-<-" and if you wanted to meet a chick with a d!ck, where would you go to find one?

I was noticing today how all the terms we use on these types of forums have been borrowed from the gay community.  "Coming out of the closet."  "Stealth", "Passing"... are all terms that have their roots in the gay community and like you mentioned it was a smorgasbord of "identities" meeting at the bar.  Have you wondered why when broad-spectrum "T"s get together why alcohol, drugs and sex are so frequently involved?

There used to be a group of people who were born with a birth defect and that birth defect had to do with being born with the wrong genitals and consequently developing the wrong secondary sexual characteristics and having the wrong life.  Now it seems a lot more like a party.  We mingle with men who like girls who have penises and we have adopted gay terminologies to describe ourselves.

We blame the ->-bleeped-<- who is attracted to us or worse yet not us but rather our girlfriend because it always feel bad to get dissed in favor of someone else.  Because of how we have adopted being gay (inclusion in the rainbow), we are viewed by Society as gay men, which is what we define ourselves as  by hanging out in gay bars, by marching in pride parades, by adopting and using gay terminologies to describe ourselves.

Is it any wonder we can't get a birth certificate change in Texas anymore?

When will we begin to take responsibility for our lives?  "We" as in whoever this applies to...

Quote from: Julie Wilson on October 13, 2009, 10:47:52 PM
I was noticing today how all the terms we use on these types of forums have been borrowed from the gay community.  "Coming out of the closet."  "Stealth", "Passing"... are all terms that have their roots in the gay community and like you mentioned it was a smorgasbord of "identities" meeting at the bar.

Probably because we are all a part of the same community and have been for quite some time. And not just for the obvious LGBT community thing, but because many of our identities are also LGB, almost all of us either before or after transition was a part of that community, unless you are one f those who happen to be "hetero" before and hetero after due to a shift in sexuality.

Quote from: Julie Wilson on October 13, 2009, 10:47:52 PM

I don't mean for this to sound callused but women go to bars to hook up with men (or lesbians).  That is essentially what a bar is for.  The ->-bleeped-<- was just doing the bar thing.

I'm in a relationship so I go to bars to have a drink with my SO and enjoy my time with her.  Besides, I learned a long time ago that bars are the worst place to meet someone.

We went because it was a monthly meeting of TGs.  Yes, we were the only post-op girls there but I met a lot of these girls long before I began my transition and I hadn't seen them in a while.

Most women will tell you any man who thinks a woman is in a bar to be picked up needs to be avoided.  Guys who think girls want them to pick them up are usually not worth the time of day.  And a guy who dresses like a woman in order to ingratiate himself with TGs in the hopes of getting laid is a creep.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Wilson on October 13, 2009, 10:47:52 PM

I don't mean for this to sound callused but women go to bars to hook up with men (or lesbians).  That is essentially what a bar is for.  The ->-bleeped-<- was just doing the bar thing.

No.

People go to bars to relax, socialize, dance, watch sports, etc...
Not everyone goes to a bar just to meet someone.

Bars aren't just for "hooking up"... Only those interested in nothing else would think so

Quote from: Leslie Ann on October 14, 2009, 04:41:12 PM

People go to bars to relax, socialize, dance, watch sports, etc...
Not everyone goes to a bar just to meet someone.

Yeah, that's been mostly what I've noticed

The few that are there just to score a pick up are usually fairly obvious  :laugh:

Yes bars are a place to relax, socialize, watch the game, etc.

The ones that are pick up only are very grim. This is probably why the Savoy was so unfriendly - it was set up to dance to LOUD BAD music, buy expensive drinks, and was set up as a hook up bar. It was a place for lesbians and various hangers on to pick up on each other, fight in the parking lot, and in general engage in the drama filled les mating ritual. It had ->-bleeped-<-s too, there were some creepy guys around the place. It was not a friendly place.

I suppose it kinda depends on what bar you go to, who with and how much you drink.

I'm kinda reflecting on younger days though, I haven't been to a bar in over four years.

When I did go, it was to see friends. Often it would be a place with a seafood grill and we'd get dinner. Maybe play pool or darts or watch a game on the TV. I was never into the "pick up" thing

i go to people watch and listen to live music i love the jazz scene and rock scene w/o bars it would be signifigantly harder to hear good local musicians
jessica

That's true who can afford concerts any more? In fact this is why I'm very pro street music, a lot of people can't afford bars, and for little kids, it's their one chance to see instruments played live.

lol id just tell him that if he wanted to impress me, he better not dress up like a girl :D

I wonder what people consider ->-bleeped-<-s...
and what the motives of these man or woman are...