Susan's Place Transgender Resources

My body is self contradictory.  I have discussed previously having some form of androgen insensitivity syndrome, but now I wonder if it is actually further than that.  The main reasons I came to that conclusion previously was:
1. Considerably smaller than average genitals
2. Quite feminine body features all my life.
3. My body started feminizing before I started HRT.
4. My body started rapidly losing it's sex drive  (I'm assuming T count lowering) even before coming to terms or anything.
5. I was fertile (2 children).

I now realize #5 caused me to rule out some of the possibilities, but with new information I realize that I shouldn't have done that.

Now, my gonads--I'm using that term, because I'm not exactly sure what they are anymore--are different from each other.  Before I had ever considered that I might be IS, I knew they felt different and I thought maybe I might have testicular cancer, so I had an ultrasound done of the area and they said there was no cancer.  What they did say was that I had a varicocele one one side and a hydrocele on the other side.  I don't remember which side was which.  No further action was taken. 

First of all, the left one feels like quite normal to me and feels like it appears in the diagrams.  The one that concerns me is the right one.  Now upon my research the varicocele appears on the left one 85% of the time and that's probably where it was on me, but I'm not sure.  As for the hydrocele, it appears usually in either infants or middle-aged men.  I was 28 at this time.  So, the chances of either occuring in the right side are against the odds.

Now, for some time, I've been wondering if the one on the right side is not really a testicle, but perhaps either and ovary or more likely an ovotestis (based on comparing diagrams with how it feels).  It doesn't even feel like the diagrams for either a hydrocele or a varicocele, although it is similar.  Another thing is I had heard about the IS condition (although I had some gross misconceptions about it at the time) and I have always had this nagging feeling that it might somehow apply to me, but I didn't have a vagina, so I wrote that off.

Well, I have talked to my doctor about possibly being IS and testing and her response was along the lines of that a lot of TS look at this possibility to justify transition, when the results will be the same and that I should look upon my feminine qualities as an advantage.  So, again, I decided not to do anything.

Well, I was thinking about what if it really is an ovary or perhaps evan an ovotestis?  What if it has been producing estrogen in my body?  If that is the case, I don't know if I would want it removed, but rather "stuffed" up in my body where it should be.  This would mean that my SRS wouldn't be "standard", so now I am reconsidering the possibility of getting tested, or at least some kind of examination in the light of possibly being IS.  This whole thing is just so confusing.  It doesn't seem like I started with "standard male equipment" and I really haven't been thoroughly tested, but what if I did start out standard and this is needless testing.  I just want to do this so I'm confused, not so I'm justified.  I just feel so caught in the middle of the 2 sexes and I have no idea what kind of body I'm dealing with, so I feel like a freak. :(

Sigh... Too many anomalies.  Too many questions. :(

Melissa

Melissa,
  As you know I have had similar feelings before testing showed I had female organs as well as some male (mostly female ones though). Once my mind allowed my body do her thing and stopped blocking it it certainly showed. The testing I went through was saliva for hormone testing, blood work up (though at that amount I think they are part vampires!!lol), x-rays and an MRI. From things you have posted I wondered the same as you about your situation. One thing I found when I read the threads is a lot of them discussed things I couldn't relate to as per se, almost as though I may be another plain of this whole situation for some reason. I never felt I was woman, even at beginning but more to the tune that I am woman. I never questioned it either. Testing is really only way to tell and you will know for sure that way. Good luck with testing if you so choose to do so.  :angel:

Thanks Kim.  I'm glad you posted a reply.  It was your posting and about how you were IS, but fertile that really triggered me back into self examination.  Next time I see my doctor, I will ask more questions about this and see if I can get further testing done.  I mean if it were just AIS, I can see how I would be fine getting by without testing, but if I actually do have some female parts in my body, then I would want to preserve and use those as best as possible, so GRS would be quite different.  I mean I was thinking about whether an orchi might be a good idea and then I realized, "What if I don't have 2 testicles and that has in fact been helping with feminization of my body."  For now I'll just try not to think about it.  It just makes me feel frustrated when I do because there are so many unanswered things.  I mean I'm not 100% sure either way and i would like to be 100% sure regardless of the outcome.

Melissa

As for my fertility I chalk it up to 2 things-my wife and I always believe its up to God, and I also like to think the luck of the Irish had a small play in it too!!lol.  :angel:
Posted on: October 13, 2006, 04:25:27 PM

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Melissa,
  I have had the flu for the past week and a half (joys of a family, recyling is more than reusing junk, it also means flu keeps goin for a while!!lol) and my response was vague. I tried to keep in tune with things but wasn't in full range of thought so I am posting a better response now for you. Sorry about that.
   There is more to benefit from when you find out you are IS than that of being a woman biologically as well as mentally (that is to say it's not just part of your brain but organs and glands as well). For me there were years of forgetting things, not always able to figure things out when I dang well knew I should be able to. As well, since getting married my wife and even I knew I had changed as a person in the way I treated her, our home and involvment with our 3 children. This is how these things were explained to us.
   Over time I was subconciously pushing away my femeninity, much as does even a TS. However, unlike a TS, my mind also had to control certain feminine functions such as hormones, biological development etc. This apparently can be done by ones mind but it takes a lot of brain power to do it. So on top of day to day thinking as a person does my mind also worked at suppressing my femininity. The latter took most of the work and thus on top of day to day living there really was no more brain available. Thus, I would forget things, could only remember so far back in time and couldn't put a lot of thought into logical problems. The rape and torture by my CD uncle probably made the supression even more strong. I use to get slight pains once in a while in my rib area and the military doctors felt this was a weight problem as per se. They felt my lungs grew normally but wheras I was under weight they were poking through my ribs once in a while  ??? . However, my doctor says not so. They (my doctor and the one he's cosulting with as well as a counsellor) feel this was my breasts having growth spurts but my mind supressing that growth thus fighting each other and all I knew was the pain of it. Makes sense since I always got cramps on a regular interval. As my mind supressed my femininty more and more a lot of my true characteristics went with it too. The reason again was that there was not enough mind left to sort the feminine ones from masculine ones. So I just learned all my masculinity from those around me to pass and of course I had bad mentors and wasn't a very good husband.
   Now that we have found the real me and decided to embrace her for her true worth things have changed for me greatly. I cried when memories of my childhood started to flow through, all of which my mom verified for us. I can sit and do a whole crossword puzzle in the paper barely using a dictionary. This is all because now I have a whole brain I can use for the first time since it isn't bogged down with a big task like it was. My voice is changing, almost complete now after 7 months, as is my body. Since my breasts developed I no longer get those little ol' chest pains. My face is softening and my hair is thinning on body and face. I guess my mind was in overdrive. Oh, and I am finally getting restful sleeps. I guess the ol' mind was working 24/7. The world for me is finally very beautiful. My marriage helped me feel some of the beauty of the world but now I see it all.
   The transition for me was different from some of the threads I read. I had no doubts about it and didn't feel suicidal. My only concern was my kids and marriage. Once I felt they were secure for me I was fine. I still worry about the outlaws, ah I mean in-laws as they seem to be the type who would ruin our marriage just to split us up because of who I am. We are strong and will stand together for as long as possible through it though, we already said that much. I have no looking back as there is nothing but darkness from where I came to now. I long for my first time out but am not up to there yet as I am still styling my hair or I may just buy a wig. And I have a major problem that is family oriented. I shave but my upper lip moreso has shadow as though I missed it even though it's smooth. All my dad's famlily has it including the women. I can't remember any of them not having it so they may not have bothered covering it. Maybe it bothers me more because I am IS. I almost have the right shade of foundation but still working at it.  Back to the transition part though. The dressing was all natural for me, I did not have to learn anything. I know exactly what every piece is and goes with and can coordinate with no problem at all. It was all just there. I hope this helps more than my 1st response. Again though, best of luck in your journey dear,
                                                                   Kim    :angel:

Oh yes that did help.  I had completely forgotten about the chest pains I used to have.  I even went to the doctor, because I was afraid I had a heart condition or something, but everything checked out normal.  I just beared it, but I haven't gotten those pains within the last year when I started transitioning.  I wonder if it's related.

As for the dressing coming naturlly, I had that happen too.  I know I have good taste in fashion and have had it since the beginning of transition with no instruction from anyone.  I just figured it was because I watched other women so much.  Also makeup came relatively easy, but I did have help from my wife.

You know, now that you mention it, I also have experienced the forgetfullness.  I explained this to myself as suppressing my memories resulted in the long-term fog and testosterone made it so my short-term memory was bad.  Now I wonder if it was what you experienced.

My breasts started developing almost immediately after I came out of denial and I attribute that to my fast progress with HRT.  My voice has changed on it's own and I can only do my old voice if I concentrate really hard.  It really fun to freak people out sometimes. :)  But I can't just do it any old time, I have to think pretty hard about it.  In fact, my female voice is quite passable and I partially attribute that to voice therapy and partially to hormones, but now that I think about it, I remember being able to do a somewhat passable female voice when I went to my first support group meeting back in November without any prior attempts at all.  However, I did have trouble staying with the voice at that time.  I also wonder if I hadn't gone on HRT or done voice training if this would have changed on it's own.  I guess I'll never know that one.

For the upper lip shadowing, I used to have that really bad until I started laser hair removal.  I used to cover it fairly thickly with makeup and nobody seemed to notice.  Now it is down to a barely noticable darkening and putting a tiny bit of concealer usually resolves that problem. Oh yeah, another thing I have always had is very good female type skin.  It did soften somewhat on HRT and now people who don't know I'm TS say I have very good skin even for a GG.

I always had feminine looking muscles and my face always looked young for my age.  Body hair was moderate (no chest hair, but somewhat hairy legs).  These things helped me to be passable even from the very beginning.  I did have to wear a wig because of my short hair and breast forms, but I could get away with a lot more than the typical male dressing up and pass.

As for feeling suicidal, I have to admit that I did.  I was afraid my body would suddenly masculinize if I waited any longer and started having panic attacks.  I supposed it had to do a lot with conflict I got from others around me that pushed me to feel that way.  I am very glad I never went through with suicide.  I think it was the thought that I would have to continue living as male for a lot longer that always made me suicidal.  I still don't think I could ever do it again because it's not me.

My biggest hinderences to me going fulltime instantly was the length of my hair and the facial hair.  After that had settle nicely and I was passable and could no longer stand pretending to be male, I just went for it and was out to work and fulltime 3 weeks later.

Thanks again for your reply.  I'm still trying to figure things out.

Melissa

Oh My Gosh!  I am new here and I already found some other people like me.
I will tell you about myself.
I am sort of like male and mostly female body structure with typical female bones and musculature.
I have some male characteristics as to my ribcage,I have a long torso.
I have a male type voice box.I have some facial characteristics of male and female.
I have a penis and scrotum but they are small and I have a shallow vulva formation down the center and across most of my scrotum and into the perineum.
Its what you said about having cramps and having two types of gonads is what really struck me.
Thats what Ive had on and off.
Refering to the gonads being different,I havent come across that info yet,thats very interesting because thats what I think I have;or if not that I have some internal female organs.
This is great to find you and what you said.
I was thinking I was going crazy or something thinking that this was possible.
Now I have a place to start figuring out what all I have in my body.
I havent ever had any problems associated with my reproductive organs and I havent been for a serious exam since I was little.
Then all I had was a upper body xray.So,noone has ever seen into my belly to see what all is different.
i have feelings that something is not typical male structures.I get cramps sometimes that are mysterious and lately since Ive been taking estrogenics I have had more sensations in my pelvis.
I hope that you would like to talk sometime,there is a lot I would like to ask you.
Thanks

Melissa, what are your measurements in size?

Mine are

wrist= 6.1"
feet= 7 mens or 8 womens
height = 67 " (I just measured today..seems I lost an inch since last year and have no clue how)


My wife said I had the smallest you know what she has seen. I've never been big or masculine and she has stated several times there is nothing masculine looking about me. She is also jealous of my legs because they are so girly. Yet my my chromosome test came back xy. I just accept it for what it is. Perhaps there is a third chromosome they have not discovered yet? I don't know but I am not a big person. I am by no means petite either. I've spent year after year getting the most god awful cramps monthly with no explanation. I just put those questions to rest after so many years. It really doesn't matter does it? Are you still searching for that ever so elusive validation or are you wanting to know why you are the way you are just out of curiosity? Accept yourself as you are and move on. It's time.

( slipped into the girls' locker room by mistake. Quietly backs out. ::))

Davilee, if you'd like to talk sometime, that would be fine...or we can just use this thread if you can't do PMs since your post count isn't at 15 yet.  I'm glad this thread helped you.

Quote from: Lori on July 23, 2007, 05:20:56 PM
Melissa, what are your measurements in size?

Mine are

wrist= 6.1"
feet= 7 mens or 8 womens
height = 67 " (I just measured today..seems I lost an inch since last year and have no clue how)

Hmm, let me check.
wrist=6.9"
feet=10 womens
height=69"

Quote from: Lori on July 23, 2007, 05:20:56 PM
My wife said I had the smallest you know what she has seen. I've never been big or masculine and she has stated several times there is nothing masculine looking about me. She is also jealous of my legs because they are so girly. Yet my my chromosome test came back xy.

Yep, mine came back XY as well.

Quote from: Lori on July 23, 2007, 05:20:56 PM
I just accept it for what it is. Perhaps there is a third chromosome they have not discovered yet? I don't know but I am not a big person. I am by no means petite either. I've spent year after year getting the most god awful cramps monthly with no explanation. I just put those questions to rest after so many years. It really doesn't matter does it? Are you still searching for that ever so elusive validation or are you wanting to know why you are the way you are just out of curiosity? Accept yourself as you are and move on. It's time.

I was wanting to know why I am the way I am.  At this point I am also just accepting it for what it is.  The chromosome test was enough to put my mind at ease.

Quote from:  link=topic=6719.msg128645#msg128645 date=1185229818
( slipped into the girls' locker room by mistake. Quietly backs out. ::))

LMAO :D

I wish I had the guts to take the test you did Melissa, at least you got some answers and some peace of mind.

I have wondered so much of my life about that very thing.  In my case to so called birth and death of my one year older sibling.  My family never talked about it, only giving hints once in a while.

I have gathered bits and pieces over the years, supposedly born Karen, died a year and a half later (six months after I was born) with the birth certificate saying Karl.  The problem is there are no pictures, no record of the  birth or death certificate (that I have been able to access, records sealed).  And my fathers parents would send me birthday cards on the birth date of my sibling, never on my birthday (at least not until I was a teen).  From things my sister has "let slip" over the years I am not sure about the whole situation.


Sarah L.

Melissa,

We have never spoken of this, but have you discussed this with your family at all?
Families are rather reluctant to bring up this subject, but in my own experience, and amongst other people I've known, there always seems to be a story that is not being told. There always seems to be little details that are left out, on purpose, by accident.

I would never dissuade anyone from getting tested, but I have rarely seen it do anyone any good. Science is always trying to explain away things that fall outside of their neat little boxes, often to no avail, and when someone shows up, they either sequester you away or pretend you do not exist. I have made no attempt to hide my disdain for the medical industry on this site, for obvious reasons. But for many people, the medical "explanation" is never adequate to explain their situation.

In my youth, I was poked, prodded, tested, adultered, adjusted, and finally dismissed. They did not know how I worked, or how to categorize me. So, it was easier to pretend I was just an "anomaly." A glitch in the system. I could not be made to fit into their perfect little world, so I must be an accident, I suppose? So, go away. Don't darken our door. Don't complicate our model. Why didn't they just call me a freak and be done with it?   ;)  LOL.

The important thing to remember, is that you are OK. You seem very well-balanced to me.
So, fitting into their categories might not be so important. It sure doen't negate who you are in any way. You were never a male person, regardless of what their tests show, and you will never be a normal female either. But you are delightfully you. Isn't that what matters? And you have a lovely person that loves you as you are. You are really blessed in my book.

I don't know how much research you have already done, but I like this site for beginner's:

http://www.itpeople.org/pdf/intersex1.pdf

We are not alone.  The truth is out there.   ;)

There are times where I doubt that I am a normal biological male. My body is mostly female shaped and my sex drive is non existant. Also, I get this strange sensation sometimes behind where my testicles are and it permeates throughout my lower body. It feels strange, I have no idea how to describe it. It's not painful but it feels like an electrical jolt somewhat, that's the best I can describe it here. I have a hard time passing as a male sometimes and I've gotten quite a few wierd looks in my life.

Oh Ive been so antsy to get here and read if anyone would reply....the site has had a connection problem from my end for a day.
Thank you so much for responding Melissa.It means a lot to me.
I was very intriged about what you said as to the gonad anomalies.
Where could I find the definitions to the various testes structures you mentioned(varicocele,ovotestis,etc.),check Wiki?
How would you find out exactly what you have,because I feel the same concern about it.
Id really like to know what I have.
I told you before that I had a theory about that awhile back,but until I read what you said I wasnt going to go with it completely.
I wished I could afford the tests and body scans so I would know exactly what is going on inside of me.
Ive only read small amounts of info on Mullerian(sp?) syndrome on wiki, I read a article by a woman who had so much horrible things done to her when she was young.
She has no vulva or exterior opening to her vagina,she only has a rudimentary tiny vaginal canal internally.
It turned out that she has TWO uteruses and Four ovaries,which one was good and the others werent developed properly.
Anyway,I need to get a hormone test and I would like to get a chromosome test.
I dont see whats wrong with a person wanting to know for themselves what it says,its noone elses business except for close family.
Can you point me to your source for info on the chromosome particulars?
I mean, I need to review the basics of gender chromosome differences.
Perhaps if you want you can just briefly clue me in on that info.
The fact I find so interesting is there are so many variations to the IS.
Ive been staggered by all the different forms.
I admit, as to reproductive organs externally I have a more normal appearance of maleness;but,I do have some female external formations also.I dont produce much sperm.
However,body wise I have typical female light bones and musculature and I have the wide pelvic girdle and narrow waist.
The one other fluke of my structure is my legs and arms and torso are long but very slender.
I also have a hard time keeping on proper fat amounts.Well,until I started taking some phytoestrogenics I did.
Im not sure what the digit ratio thingy is.
Thanks again,*hugs.....Davilee
 

Posted on: July 24, 2007, 04:44:43 PM

---

Oh thanks Thundra,Im looking at that site.
Yeah,I dont know what I am really. Now i feel i dont want to start claiming Im this or that,because now Im not really sure.
To,Aeyra,...I have an odd sex drive also.  I actually have a cycle in a zone each month, where my libido is really crazy. I also get odd cramps in my pelvis sometimes,and its not from my digestive system.
This is going to sound weird but when I get really turned on I feel a moving pressure that comes up in my pelvis and my lower belly swells out somewhat,like some organ is expanding or something,i dont know.
I apologize to anyone for going to sexual matters.

There's some really good information in this thread some posters may find of interest.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,16375.0.html

As Ive said before chromosone testing is limited in what it tells you...  really there are only what 2 or 3 syndroms that have to do with the chromosones themselves...

So far as all this talk goes...  and Ive expressed conscern over this before, I get cramps on a regualr basis, unless my hrt regimine is lacking then it goes haywire... Ive allways been steral, even before HRT... I havnt been tested andprobably wont for some time. I just deal with it.
One last comment. If your reproductive organs work properly and youve had or produced children chances are your NOT IS....

Melissa,

What does any of it matter? It doesn't change how you feel about yourself and your gender. Does it? I mean, that is how I feel about it. It makes little difference how I got this way. You could line up every doctor in the AMA and have them all tell me I am this, or I am that, but in the end, I want to have a female body. I want to live my life as a female. No matter what anyone says about it.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Davilee on July 24, 2007, 05:10:48 PM
I was very intriged about what you said as to the gonad anomalies.
Where could I find the definitions to the various testes structures you mentioned(varicocele,ovotestis,etc.),check Wiki?

A varicocele is actually something that biologically normal males get and has nothing to do with being IS.  I was worried about the funny lumps down there and was getting it checked out for cancer.  I figured that since SRS was in my plan anyhow, I wasn't going to take any further actions regarding this.  Definitions can be found by doing various google searches.

Quote from: Davilee on July 24, 2007, 05:10:48 PM
I wished I could afford the tests and body scans so I would know exactly what is going on inside of me.

Yeah, I wish I could have afforded it too. ::)

Quote from: Davilee on July 24, 2007, 05:10:48 PM
Anyway,I need to get a hormone test and I would like to get a chromosome test.
I dont see whats wrong with a person wanting to know for themselves what it says,its noone elses business except for close family.

Right.

Quote from: Davilee on July 24, 2007, 05:10:48 PM
Can you point me to your source for info on the chromosome particulars?
I mean, I need to review the basics of gender chromosome differences.
Perhaps if you want you can just briefly clue me in on that info.
The fact I find so interesting is there are so many variations to the IS.
Ive been staggered by all the different forms.

You can look at http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex

Quote from: Davilee on July 24, 2007, 05:10:48 PM
However,body wise I have typical female light bones and musculature and I have the wide pelvic girdle and narrow waist.
The one other fluke of my structure is my legs and arms and torso are long but very slender.

Well, you can take a good look at what my body structure looks like here:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,16371.msg126341.html#msg126341

Quote from: Davilee on July 24, 2007, 05:10:48 PM
Im not sure what the digit ratio thingy is.

A normal male is supposed to have a longer ring finger than index finger.  GGs have them about the same length (or shorter) and TS's supposedly have them the same as GGs.  They are the same in my case.  However, I thought this was related to being TS and not necessarily IS.

Quote from: Davilee on July 24, 2007, 05:10:48 PM
Thanks again,*hugs.....Davilee

No problem. :)

Quote from: LynnER on July 24, 2007, 07:39:11 PM
As Ive said before chromosone testing is limited in what it tells you...  really there are only what 2 or 3 syndroms that have to do with the chromosones themselves...

Yeah, oh well.

Quote from: LynnER on July 24, 2007, 07:39:11 PM
One last comment. If your reproductive organs work properly and youve had or produced children chances are your NOT IS....

But it also doesn't rule it out.  As you can see above in this very thread, Kim was an exception to this.

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 24, 2007, 08:52:42 PM
Melissa,

What does any of it matter? It doesn't change how you feel about yourself and your gender. Does it? I mean, that is how I feel about it. It makes little difference how I got this way. You could line up every doctor in the AMA and have them all tell me I am this, or I am that, but in the end, I want to have a female body. I want to live my life as a female. No matter what anyone says about it.

Umm, have you been reading any of my replies lately on the subject?  If not, I'll just say I had already decided to continue my current transitional course and not worry about any more testing.  One of the main reasons was to rule out any potential future health complications.  I was tested and I'm glad I did it.  I was disappointed I didn't find an answer with the results, but at the same time relieved that my body is not as complicated as it could be.

Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2007, 02:38:33 AM
...
Umm, have you been reading any of my replies lately on the subject?  If not, I'll just say I had already decided to continue my current transitional course and not worry about any more testing.  One of the main reasons was to rule out any potential future health complications.  I was tested and I'm glad I did it.  I was disappointed I didn't find an answer with the results, but at the same time relieved that my body is not as complicated as it could be.

Yes, I have. My post was in support of you. I knew of your decision and I am pretty sure I have read most of your posts. there might be a few that slipped by, but for the most part I think I get it. Good luck.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 26, 2007, 04:26:27 AM
Yes, I have. My post was in support of you. I knew of your decision and I am pretty sure I have read most of your posts. there might be a few that slipped by, but for the most part I think I get it. Good luck.

Ah, ok.  I read it again from this new angle and it came across as completely different.  It's just you addressed me with some questions intended to provoke thought.  Re-reading and interpreting differently, that was just your way (with questions) of stating how you view it. :)

Thanks for taking time to reply to my various thoughts...very helpful.
Ahh...the digit ratio....for me,my ring finger is 3/8" longer than my index.
My wrists are 6" around,forearms 9.5",upper arms 10"
I have the female arms/elbow thingy.
My legs are semi angled,its hard to tell.If I stand with my feet together but slightly angled apart my legs have angled thighs and slightly straighter lower legs.
chest around below breasts 33"
chest around breasts 36"
waist is high and 28-29"
hips 37",going toward 38"...I better watch that...
I am 5'10" tall.....thanks be to whoever, Im not any taller...
I thought I'd give my measurements,since some of you stepped up and did that.

Quote from: Davilee on August 09, 2007, 05:43:23 AM
I have the female arms/elbow thingy.

This seems to be a popular optical illusion.

Quote from: Davilee on August 09, 2007, 05:43:23 AM
Ahh...the digit ratio....for me,my ring finger is 3/8" longer than my index.

That's how it's supposed to be for GMs.  My ring finger is actually shorter than my index finger.

Quote from:  link=topic=6719.msg135404#msg135404 date=1186672934

Quote from: Davilee on August 09, 2007, 05:43:23 AM
I have the female arms/elbow thingy.

This seems to be a popular optical illusion.

Yeah, but how many TS can actually bend their elbows backwards?  I know I can.  This is supposedly only a GG trait.  I think I have only met 1 other TS in person who could do this too.  Nobody else has been able to.

Need proof?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.melissagirl.com%2Fimages%2Fphotos%2Felbow1.jpg&hash=a656ad0f1e682518e8cb4477831c860df8943f4d)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.melissagirl.com%2Fimages%2Fphotos%2Felbow2.jpg&hash=d9a7fae97b63b272f5ec686b91911036b6fe0fd5)

Quote from: Melissa on August 09, 2007, 10:57:15 AM

Quote from:  link=topic=6719.msg135404#msg135404 date=1186672934

Quote from: Davilee on August 09, 2007, 05:43:23 AM
I have the female arms/elbow thingy.

This seems to be a popular optical illusion.

Yeah, but how many TS can actually bend their elbows backwards?  I know I can.  This is supposedly only a GG trait.  I think I have only met 1 other TS in person who could do this too.  Nobody else has been able to.

Need proof?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.melissagirl.com%2Fimages%2Fphotos%2Felbow1.jpg&hash=a656ad0f1e682518e8cb4477831c860df8943f4d)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.melissagirl.com%2Fimages%2Fphotos%2Felbow2.jpg&hash=d9a7fae97b63b272f5ec686b91911036b6fe0fd5)

You have great flexibility. :)
But I'm afraid that there are certain aspects that differ between the male and female skeleton. The pelvis is one.
The arm is one. Genetic males (no matter how 'hippy' one may appear) do not have the female pelvis which besides being wider is shaped absolutely different than the male pelvis. The female's arms hang at a different point than the male's arms. This is to provide room so that her arms do not collide with her wider hips.
There is also the infamous 'female arm carry angle' for holding and nursing offspring. I have this elusive, enviable, female trait. It comes in handy for cradling my tiny spoiled maltese while I go about my activities.
No genetic male has the female arm traits. Melanie Anne Phillips is either delusional or has an IS condition which caused an estrogen surge during puberty when these traits are formed.

Most GG I know can't bend their elbow backward either so I'm not sure if its something meaningfull or not!

I can put both legs behind my head, that's pretty good flexibility for a 40 year old :-).

Quote from:  link=topic=6719.msg135461#msg135461 date=1186683712
You have great flexibility. :)

Thanks.  I read somewhere that only GGs could do what I am doing in my picture.  Maybe I can find that reference.  I don't know if it's a fact or not, which is why I said "supposedly".

QuoteBut I'm afraid that there are certain aspects that differ between the male and female skeleton. The pelvis is one.
The arm is one. Genetic males (no matter how 'hippy' one may appear) do not have the female pelvis which besides being wider is shaped absolutely different than the male pelvis. The female's arms hang at a different point than the male's arms. This is to provide room so that her arms do not collide with her wider hips.
There is also the infamous 'female arm carry angle' for holding and nursing offspring. I have this elusive, enviable, female trait. It comes in handy for cradling my tiny spoiled maltese while I go about my activities.

I agree 100% with what you say there.  Remember my bikini pic?  That was with my arms relaxed and dropped to the sides.  The arms just flare out at the elbows.  I did find some old pics of me and in those pics it didn't do this so much.  I don't know exactly what effects estrogen had on me. ???  I just am how I am and I don't know if I have a female skeleton or that the "differences" are only generalizations and males really do possess these attributes.  You decide.  I can say with 100% certainty that I have a "Melissa skeleton". ;D  Also, if I don't have a female skeleton, then I don't know what I have, but it's certainly NOT male.

I do also know that before transition, I never walked like a normal male.  More like a female, but with taking wider steps.  It was my ex who pointed that out, which she had always found strange before.  Most of my learning the walk was taking smaller steps and emphasizing the hip motion more.  I never understood the "arm tips" since mine already naturally had the result it was supposed to achieve (this was before I realized that my arms were different than men).

Oh yeah, another thing I've read before is that for the MTF, the angle of the pelvis will change on hormones due to ligaments tightening or something.  That has nothing to do with the shape or width or being IS or anything of the sort, but is just an effect of estrogen.  I hear the pelvis can widen if a person starts HRT at the onset of puberty, but I didn't.  As for male/female pelvic shape, the illiac crests and the angle of the pubic symphysis are the most noticeable differences.   I'd have to have an x-ray of mine to make an accurate assessment of the shape of my pelvis, so I don't usually talk about that aspect.  It *is* wider than a typical male pelvis though and is probably more comparable to a somewhat narrow-hipped GG, but still in the range.

Quote from:  link=topic=6719.msg135461#msg135461 date=1186683712
No genetic male has the female arm traits. Melanie Anne Phillips is either delusional or has an IS condition which caused an estrogen surge during puberty when these traits are formed.

Well, I only have her word to go by.  Maybe you're right about her being delusional.  I can't vouch for her, only myself.  I wish I could show you in person what I'm talking about, but a camera is about the best I can do for now. :-\

Quote from: Keira on August 09, 2007, 01:37:45 PMMost GG I know can't bend their elbow backward either so I'm not sure if its something meaningfull or not!

Well, pretty much most of the ones I know can.  I'll give you a better comparable example though.  I have a son and a daughter (both genetic offspring).  They both have normal skeletons to my observation and they are both quite flexible (in fact they are more flexible in their hips than me, which came from their mother).  My daughter can easily bend her elbows backwards, but my son is unable to.  In just about all other aspects though, he is almost as flexible as me including bending fingers backwards. 

Quote from: Keira on August 09, 2007, 01:37:45 PMI can put both legs behind my head, that's pretty good flexibility for a 40 year old :-).

That's more than I can do (I can just do 1 leg and barely at that), but then again I have a short torso and my lower spine isn't in the best condition.  I do know I'm more flexible than most GGs though.  In my musical I'm in, a bunch of us were supposed to come up with some special skill or talent we could do.  I chose to do some contortionism.  I was the only person able to bend that much, which was certainly more than most of the girls (all GGs) with the exception of 1 other person.  I don't know how much my flexibility plays into stuff, but like I said, I'm certain I have a "Melissa skeleton". ;)

I am trying to be as honest as I can here and I'm trying to avoid making any claims based merely on perception.  That's why have backed off saying I know for sure I have a female skeleton.  If you want to throw around semantics though, I could say:
A. I am female
B. I have my skeleton
C. Therefore I have a female skeleton. ;)
That could apply to ALL TS though. ;D

In other words, I don't really care *what* I have, but it's mine! :icon_evil_laugh:  Ok, maybe I should lay off the coffee.

Quote from: Melissa on August 09, 2007, 02:30:57 PM

Quote from:  link=topic=6719.msg135461#msg135461 date=1186683712
You have great flexibility. :)

Thanks.  I read somewhere that only GGs could do what I am doing in my picture.  Maybe I can find that reference.  I don't know if it's a fact or not, which is why I said "supposedly".

QuoteBut I'm afraid that there are certain aspects that differ between the male and female skeleton. The pelvis is one.
The arm is one. Genetic males (no matter how 'hippy' one may appear) do not have the female pelvis which besides being wider is shaped absolutely different than the male pelvis. The female's arms hang at a different point than the male's arms. This is to provide room so that her arms do not collide with her wider hips.
There is also the infamous 'female arm carry angle' for holding and nursing offspring. I have this elusive, enviable, female trait. It comes in handy for cradling my tiny spoiled maltese while I go about my activities.

I agree 100% with what you say there.  Remember my bikini pic?  That was with my arms relaxed and dropped to the sides.  The arms just flare out at the elbows.  I did find some old pics of me and in those pics it didn't do this so much.  I don't know exactly what effects estrogen had on me. ???  I just am how I am and I don't know if I have a female skeleton or that the "differences" are only generalizations and males really do possess these attributes.  You decide.  I can say with 100% certainty that I have a "Melissa skeleton". ;D  Also, if I don't have a female skeleton, then I don't know what I have, but it's certainly NOT male.

While I don't believe any genetic male has a 'female skeleton' which is why I kept harping on certain TS being delusional and living in Bubbleworld :laugh:, there is such a thing as having a female build, or at least a build that is more female than male.

Yes, a transgirl who had HRT during puberty may very well develop female hips and a widened pelvis. As that is the time it occurs in natal females.

The 'female walk' is more of a gravity thing than a learned thing. At least the core difference is. Males have more upper body gravity as they carry most their weight in the upper body. Females have more lower body gravity carrying the bulk of their weight below the waist.
This affects the way we walk and how our stroll looks to others. Another aspect affecting the way females walk, is their hips and arms (as I described above).
Young girls don't study women walking to try to learn to walk like a female. The bulk of it comes naturally from body shape.
As a transwoman's body fat shifts from her waist and back to her hips and ass, the walk will come naturally as her center of gravity shifts.
Some aspects of the female walk won't come naturally and may even be impossible for a transwoman to develop.
Because she'll never have the wider hips (hip bones are already set after puberty) and her arms don't fall at the same angle (this too is set, probably from birth, and can't change) as natal females.
The only way HRT could widen the hip bones after puberty would be if by some miracle the bones hadn't set yet. Which is a long shot, but if it were possible it'd be in someone very young like late teens who had a later puberty or something. Still pretty doubtful.
There is also the knee difference between males and females which is the reason female athletes have frequent knee injuries. I'm not sure how or if it affects the walk, but it does affect how females run.

Quote from: Melissa on August 09, 2007, 02:30:57 PM
I am trying to be as honest as I can here and I'm trying to avoid making any claims based merely on perception.  That's why have backed off saying I know for sure I have a female skeleton.  If you want to throw around semantics though, I could say:
A. I am female
B. I have my skeleton
C. Therefore I have a female skeleton. ;)
That could apply to ALL TS though. ;D

In other words, I don't really care *what* I have, but it's mine! :icon_evil_laugh:  Ok, maybe I should lay off the coffee.

That's a good way of looking at it. :icon_woowoo:

Melissa,
One of the first things I noticed about your 'bikini pic' is where your elbow sits in relation to your waist.  A New Orleans policeman taught me a long time ago how to tell a GG from a trans-woman - a GG's elbow will be at their waist, where a trans-woman's elbow will be higher. 

What did I see when I looked at your picture?  Your elbow's pretty much at your waist.  Whoa.  That, plus looking at your overall shape, makes me understand why you think that you have an intersex condition of some kind.  I would agree.....

BTW, you're looking awesome. 

Carol

Quote from: carol_w on August 09, 2007, 04:20:50 PM
Melissa,
One of the first things I noticed about your 'bikini pic' is where your elbow sits in relation to your waist.  A New Orleans policeman taught me a long time ago how to tell a GG from a trans-woman - a GG's elbow will be at their waist, where a trans-woman's elbow will be higher. 

What did I see when I looked at your picture?  Your elbow's pretty much at your waist.  Whoa.  That, plus looking at your overall shape, makes me understand why you think that you have an intersex condition of some kind.  I would agree.....

BTW, you're looking awesome. 

Carol

*cringes* Don't get that started again. :laugh:

Quote from:  link=topic=6719.msg135524#msg135524 date=1186693067
There is also the knee difference between males and females which is the reason female athletes have frequent knee injuries. I'm not sure how or if it affects the walk, but it does affect how females run.

That's right.  If I may remind you...

Quote from:  link=topic=16371.msg126443#msg126443 date=1184892887
Looking Good. Like the legs. They have that that - I don't know what to call it, but my legs never had it. The um shape, I guess. Mine were always straight tree stumps with huge muscular calves.

Quote from:  link=topic=6719.msg135524#msg135524 date=1186693067
That's a good way of looking at it. :icon_woowoo:

Thank you. :)

Quote from: carol_w on August 09, 2007, 04:20:50 PM
Melissa,
One of the first things I noticed about your 'bikini pic' is where your elbow sits in relation to your waist.  A New Orleans policeman taught me a long time ago how to tell a GG from a trans-woman - a GG's elbow will be at their waist, where a trans-woman's elbow will be higher. 

What did I see when I looked at your picture?  Your elbow's pretty much at your waist.  Whoa.  That, plus looking at your overall shape, makes me understand why you think that you have an intersex condition of some kind.  I would agree.....

:)

Quote from: carol_w on August 09, 2007, 04:20:50 PM
BTW, you're looking awesome.

Thank you. :)

Quote from:  link=topic=6719.msg135563#msg135563 date=1186695577
*cringes* Don't get that started again. :laugh:

Aww, don't worry about it. :D

As to the "elbow/arm" thingy.....what >I< meant is that my elbows are above my waist.....
and I can bend my elbows backwards as a fact.....it doesnt mean anything though
As to the digit ratio thing....I mustve read it wrong.....sorry
Hmmm....gee I didnt know there was a intersex police squad, passing down the approved litmus test.
Im sorry I dont fit into a little perfect notion of intersexed.
I dont know what I am genetically,I cant afford to medically check it.
I dont know for sure what my other internal reproductive organs are yet....cant afford to have a body scan.....
I just know that Im not completely male physically and Im certainly female mentally and in my heart

Im just trying to understand what I am,and discussing with others...for health reasons,I want to know what to exactly expect from my body if I change some medicine or treatment.
How about this being a NON judgemental zone...eh?
Are ya XY or XX?....you better be XX or youre in trooooublllllle.
When I get my IS official identification travel papers,I'll get back to ya....
BUT REALLY who needs to be defined by any certain term ,Im all kinds of things.....
I intended this with a light heart...

*not aimed at Melisa*

Quote from: Davilee on August 10, 2007, 12:28:46 AM
Hmmm....gee I didnt know there was a intersex police squad, passing down the approved litmus test.

Yeah, really. ::)

Quote from: Davilee on August 10, 2007, 12:28:46 AMI just know that Im not completely male physically and Im certainly female mentally and in my heart

I think a lot of TS fit that description.  Honestly, what does it matter whether you are TS or IS?  You are still the same person in the same body and feel the same way.  I gave up on trying to figure things out myself and it wasn't necessarily cheap either.  I guess I was hoping to find some answers to that phenomenon at the same time. :P

Quote from: Davilee on August 10, 2007, 12:28:46 AM
Im just trying to understand what I am,and discussing with others...for health reasons,I want to know what to exactly expect from my body if I change some medicine or treatment.

Right, I understand that perfectly.  I think some people assume ulterior motives (such as trying to gain acceptance or something).  But when everything you read says you will experience A, B, C, D, E, and F and then you go and transition and only experience A, D, and E, but you also experience G, H, I, J, K, and L (which seem to be undocumented results) as well, you want to know why you went through such a different experience than everyone else.  So you closely scrutinize all the evidence and start trying to piece together stuff for answers.  While looking at the evidence, you find there are many things different about yourself that don't quite fit body type A.  Then some people come along, see you doing this and start saying stuff along the lines of "I knew several people who did that before and they were only doing it for acceptance to show they had a more valid reason than us to transition, so you must be doing that too."  Then you tell them the reason why you are searching for answers and their reply is something like "Well, I know for a fact that body type A does not have those characteristics, so therefore you MUST be 'delusional'."

It's a response that makes you feel angry, and also torn between searching for the answers about yourself and avoiding conflict imposed by those who feel threatened by you wanting to find the answers.  It's a lose/lose situation and no matter how much you explain yourself just to get them to back off, they remain relentless as if they are the police or something.  To make matters worse, others back them up with the same fallacious reasoning.  Is that how it feels for you too?

Quote from: Davilee on August 10, 2007, 12:28:46 AMHow about this being a NON judgemental zone...eh?

If only that were true.  It seems that TS "support" groups tend to have a higher occurence of containing militants than many other groups. ::)

Quote from: Davilee on August 10, 2007, 12:28:46 AM*not aimed at Melisa*

:)

i am new to this site and i am glad i found it . iuse to think i was alone looking like i do.i have all the outwardly looks of a female except i have no internal plumbing.for all its worth i have always  felt and acted  like a female .went thru the tests and all of  that stuff years ago it just told me what i already knew  that i was different.it is hard growing up not knowing just what you are but as i have gotten older i know i am different and i am totally ok with it .i dont feel like im a freak im just different.now i embrace the way i look. have been told i am a gorgus woman. and i love feeling and looking pretty

hi its not a shame to be differnd and for that reason you must feel your self a freak
becuase if you feel your self a freak than i must be it also but feel my self not a freak
yes im difrend and have a difrend sex ima between the boy iam half a boy and half a girl i have boy part and girls parts in my body is that wrong than must i feel my self foor that reason a freak no so your so normal as you think you are

Concerning having your condition "verified" with medical tests.
What would it change?
You are much in the same boat as I am. I have lived acknowledging the male side of me for so long, that it would be suicide in a fashion to try to correct the problem.
Even if doctors could offer me a way to become a "normal" male or female, I just could not say good-bye to either of me.
What I hope to find is a way to just be me.
One thing that I am doing is thanking God for my condition, for I feel that I am a better human being a man and a woman. Even if the girl in me has been hidden for so long.
Maybe what we need is a place to go and talk to ourselves. I can relate to those who talk about the suppression and denial aspects of our condition.
Hang in there and learn to love yourself as you are!