Susan's Place Transgender Resources

OK here how it goes,
im from NYCity
I have been living as a Gay (boy since i was 17yo), almost 12 years, Have a lot of friends. Met many many GAY guys in my life, as friends, as sexual partners, i had 3 boyfriends in my all life. But had quite a lot of 1 night stands. Of course interracted with Gay guys via internet, bars, work.
I came across that MOST Gay guys are Transgenders, i just think they don't want to -"SAY it"....
They ALL well most of them talk very Feminine, no matter how hard they work on there bodys they do have muscles they still wave there hands like woman, they only listen and relate and idolize to Female popstars or icons, they TALK about womans fashion, but they consider themselves GAYS...well thats not all -> 99% of Gay guys that i have met in my life (as friends or lovers whatever) when i ask them SO -what type of man do you like?
there answer is always the same  #1 Str8 acting, masculine, muscular, handsome -> they desribe a typical hunky Heteresexual guy.
Everytime i take my  str8 Guyfriends to Most popular Bars, nightclubs launges in NYCity, where hottest (Gays) are -> My str8 handsome friends being attacked by Gays -they give there  Tel#'s, there adresses...
Don't you think that Most Gays are Transgenders just don't want to talk about it.. They call themselves GAYS.
Most of the time , ALL almost all my gay friends when they meet gay guys in Bars or whatever, they have sex, they never hear from each other ever again...They get borred very fast from each other,
I THINK we all crave for that Str8 man -> But i think no one wants to bring that out of water, how much Gay man and str8 man have Chemistry...
NOW of course there are few exceptions Gay guy dating and having great relashionship with a Gay guy (But very FEW -i have to say very FEW) im talking about Majority .
I am very curious about your Thoughts...?  Please don't attack me for what i am saying. Just think about it and share your opinion.

I think Gays are gay, not transgender.

There are loads of studies on the subject. None of them would concur with your supposition.

For me, 6' 5', broad shoulders, smaller waist, strong arms and I am all over it like white on rice.  Yes I love my GF and she me, but we both still look at the srt8 guys.

As to Gays, they are gay, period.  Yes they may do all the stereotypical movements that society thinks they must do.  But if you asked them, No they are still men.  Men who like men.


Janet

Quote from: Catherine on October 27, 2009, 10:00:28 AM
I think Gays are gay, not transgender.

There are loads of studies on the subject. None of them would concur with your supposition.

What she says.

And for the record, I'm not seeking a "straight-acting" boyfriend!

Gay men like having their man parts. They like being men with other men. They may display feminine mannerisms but many times those are affectations. Some transsexual women may go through a period of time where they consider if they are gay- I know I did, even to to the point of moving in and living with a gay man for several months in a relationship. Ultimately I concluded I was not a gay man, I was a woman (as I already knew) who liked both men and women. I just couldn't get into the gay male lifestyle because it wasn't me and I hated having man parts. I still love men very much but the only thing "gay" about me is that I still like women too. There is a qualitative difference.

We can look at this statistically.
Maybe anywhere from 2% to 10% of the population is homosexual.
Maybe anywhere from 1 in 30,000 to 1 in 3,000 of the population is transgendered.
That's quite a disparity in number to say that most of the larger group actually belongs to the smaller group.

As mentioned, gay men like their male parts. Their dearest wish in life is not to have them turned into female parts.

Although I am currently reading and enjoying Chelsea Handler's humorous memoir, "My Horizontal Life: A Collection of One-Night Stands", that is not my style in the least.

Quote from: Laura91 on October 27, 2009, 09:50:39 AM
Ewwwwwwwww

I'm a pansexual male (with female bits.. but working on that) in a homosexual marriage with another pansexual male.
IF my transsexuality was about having sex with the gender-appropriate partner, then I shouldn't be wanting to change my sex... and in fact, if that hypothesis is correct, I should be seeking a female partner, not my tall, strong, intelligent man of a partner.. *sighs slightly* Boy really gets my blood flowing..

er.. where was I...

Oh right.
If "gay men" are all actually "trans women", does that mean I'm a transwoman?

I've met enough gay men in my life to say that no matter how effeminate they are they are still gay men.  It's as FP says, they still like their male parts.  But that only answers the question are they closeted TSs?

Are they CDs?  That depends.  Many CDs I know are Bi but I can't say any are gay.  The gay men I've spent enough time with to get a feel for where they fall on the TG spectrum tells me they aren't TG in any way.  Most didn't have a clue about the TG world.  If they had TG tendencies, they would have known something.

Julie

By the form of logic you display, what the hell am I, then?  I'm a TS man who's same-gender inclined, and considers Prince and Marc Bolan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Bolan) "ideals boyfriends".

Correlation ≠ Causation

The fact that most (read: not all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_%28gay%29)) gay men are somewhere on the scale of stereotypical doesn't make them "Transgender" -- unless you're counting "genderqueer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer)" folks, in which case, well, almost everybody is to a minor degree, but even then, only in the most vague definitions of what "genderqueer" means.

The fact still remains that gay men see themselves as men who want to be with me.  TS/TG persons see themselves as better suited to the gender opposite that assigned at birth (in the vaguest possible terms), TS persons seek to alter that through hormonal and surgical means.  TS/TG sexual preferences are widely varied.

Im shocked little and still surprised how naive the world still is and you all "Believe what they tell you?"
Im out of closet for 12 years, and probably met 1000's Gay guys, i have good 30-40 friends and assosiates -I remember when we first met most of them were like "I am a top i love my penis" then few years later they are Versitle, then now they ALL are bottoms running around only after TOPS or str8 man.
LOL pffffffffffff...How comfortable are they with there dicks? THEY ARE very put how much they want to use it?
Everything is NOT black & White, if they Like there dicks and comfortable that means they are =GAYS, if they are NOT =means Transgender?
NO i don't think it much more deeper phsycological issues there.
I believe if having surgery, becoming a woman was soo EASY there will be only 100 people in GAY Parade ::) the rest would ve tranformed LONG LONG time ago to WOMAN before YOU ALL know it.
I think for average GAY man life is kinda lonely ( We all know that ) don't even lie to youself...We don't get many many phone calls from MAN to ask as out, nor to have sex with us for 3rd time.
As im approaching in my 30's i know for sure that there is not that much of a line outside of my doors,
I am above Above average looking guy i did Modeling (pro modeling), i have nice body, i work out, im OK with my looks YET i don't have even 1 GAY guy asking me out last few years-WHY? could be its because of me too i know for sure i am not sooo attracted to them --99% i see and catch myself looking at str8 man....But so as the REST of my all Friends -and people i know.
The other day i was at the GYM, i notice there are 6-7 Gay guys around me "Working out too", when all of the sudden this studly str8 guy walked in and start working out, I saw and im not jocking ALL 7 Gay guys start staring i mean STARING at that str8 guy..the guy felt very uncomfortable and went to do Bike...WHY were all those 7 gay guys weren't even looking at each other? They were FEM, Bottoms who have NO Desire towards each other..
I am not saying -> Ohh they should go and do surgery NO, we are born with penises most of us, its part of us, so we have to deal with that , we have to start feel comfortable with it....But problem is the ONES that we REALLY LIKE don't like -Gay guys( they are not attracted to Gay guys) ...and few BRAVE gay guys-aka "Transganders" they go all the way an do surgerys..
IF Surgery or Transformation was an easy thing to do as i said "there will be very  few GAY MAN LEFT "
Don't take it personalty but my experience this is what it is.
In the End...WHY in all channels you see GAy man -talk about Womans cloths , shoes, hair, nails, they are much more passionate then Woman or even Transexuals, =Because THEY ARE WOMAN inside, and LIVE and feel alive when they talk about That.
I almost never seen when GAY man talk about Sports like that?LOL and i watch a lot of sports channels..
There are FEW gay man who love sports, who are Tops, who are masculine (don't get me wrong ) but there are like 2-5% Maximum. the REST GAYSare "I am a WOMAN in LOOVE" LOL

OK LET ME put it simple and primitive WAY if you are a GAY MAN -> and you relate  mostly to WOMAN -and MADONNA, KYLIE, Judie Garland..talking about Fashion, looking and drulling over str8 man, wanting muscles to f..k u, etc... then you re Transgener. You re NOT a MAN anymore.
Transgener can not be only ONE WAY -> I am a MAN but i feel like a WOMAN (its not as simple).
I am a GAY MAN -> I always knew i wanted to be a Woman or a Girl whatever....BUT in the End its not about what i WANT, its what I HAVE.
MAN should relate to MALE role models END of that. Don't bull->-bleeped-<- me

This topic boggles my mind =/

You do realise these are usually the views of extremely close minded cis people? The kind who think transwomen only transition so they can pick up guys easier. It's nothing to do with sex or orientation. Many of the girls here are lesbians, how does that fit in?

What about us gay trans guys? I'm a gay man trapped in a womans body who secretly wants to be a woman?

Quote from: Jeatyn on October 27, 2009, 02:08:06 PM
This topic boggles my mind =/

You do realise these are usually the views of extremely close minded cis people? The kind who think transwomen only transition so they can pick up guys easier. It's nothing to do with sex or orientation. Many of the girls here are lesbians, how does that fit in?

What about us gay trans guys? I'm a gay man trapped in a womans body who secretly wants to be a woman?

Im sorry i don't understand your Question - :embarrassed:
What about us gay trans guys? Im a gay man ...????what is your point?

Again.
Dude.

I'm a bottom, I'm a feminine man, does that mean I would change into a woman? NO!
I was born with female parts. I'm working on changing my sex from female to male.

Being a sexually submissive male DOES NOT equate ->-bleeped-<-.

Quote from: kimwilde12 on October 27, 2009, 02:10:14 PM
Im sorry i don't understand your Question - :embarrassed:
What about us gay trans guys? Im a gay man ...????what is your point?

If you're a gay man then why are you transitioning?

I didnt' transition, i so far just dress up as a a girl and go out with friends,
I always wanted to have relashionship with str8 man, im in to mostly str8 man..this is The only way i get attention from them.
If i had a button to push, and become a woman i would ve pushed that button LONG TIME AGO...
Now why im not doing it, I don't have enough $$$, im scared of surgery, there are few other issues, im hairy more or less to be a woman.. Etc....
World is not "OHH its BLACK or its WHITE"
I always thougt i am a GAY MAN but my life and experience showing me that i AM NOT Gay man...How can i be Gay and not be in to gays? That leaves me with --> Nothing.
DO I enjoy womans cloths YES< do i love to be a Girl yes, do i like to be the WIFE YES... -But as i said its not WHat i want..its what i have
what can i do?

Quote from: kimwilde12 on October 27, 2009, 01:58:08 PMOK LET ME put it simple and primitive WAY if you are a GAY MAN -> and you relate  mostly to WOMAN -and MADONNA, KYLIE, Judie Garland then you re Transgener. You re NOT a MAN anymore.
MAN should relate to MALE role models END of that. Don't bull->-bleeped-<- me

Bull.

If you're going to be naming singers, think about it this way:  Who sings more about being in love with men -- men or women?  I love Noel Coward, but every recording of "Mad About the Boy" made in his (very fabulous) lifetime was performed by a woman.

Quote from: Jeatyn on October 27, 2009, 02:08:06 PM
What about us gay trans guys?

Or TS lesbians.  The gods know I've run into plenty of them in my lifetime.

You've used the phrase "the world isn't black and white" twice now but I'm pretty sure that's what everyone in this thread is trying to say to you.

"Gay men = women in denial" is your argument, with no wiggle room....maybe it's you that should realise that the world isn't black and white?

Transsexuality has nothing to do with sexual orientation. The fact that there are many transwomen who are lesbians and transguys who are gay proves that.

Just because a man isn't all alpha male and doesn't aspire to be john wayne doesn't mean he isn't a man. If there are men who think beyonce is a good role model, so what? What's her gender got to do with her character as a person?

If all gay men are trans, then I must have been a gay man...

hmmmmm...

That must mean that all trans people are gay men...

hmmmmm...

So transmen are actually gay men...

hmmmmmm...

I think someone has confused gender identity with sexual orientation...

hmmmmmm...

Makes much more sense.

-Sandy

Quote from: kimwilde12 on October 27, 2009, 02:17:43 PM
what can i do?

1. quit cussing, you're bad at it
2. generalizing other peoples sexuality doesn't fly in the real world
3.  ->-bleeped-<- (https://www.susans.org/wiki/%20-%3E-bleeped-%3C-) isn't what defines transwomen

and finally

4. please respect the gender identities of others

I agree with Flan.

Sarah L.

I think the big thing you are not factoring in here they are very different concepts. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation. Transgender on the other hand encompases prefered presentation, social roll and gender identity.

I suspect that gay men tend to have parts of the brain quite feminised compared to a lot of straight men, and perhaps comparable to trans girls. The reality is some gay men are transgendered - i.e. some ftm's, crossdressers and drag queens. A lot of gay men also are gender queer in the eyes of society. So they have a bit in common with the transgendered, there is likely to be some over lap. But If a gay man does not identify as being transgendered then they are not. Pretty simple. I know lots of gay men who are much more girly than I am - yet they are gay and I am transgendered. The most important difference here is they consider themselves men and identify as men, I don't and find it abhorent.

Just because you are gay does not mean you are transgendered. You can be both, one or the other. I think they might be related but can be totally independent of each other.

Quote from: Nicky on October 27, 2009, 03:34:02 PM
I think the big thing you are not factoring in here they are very different concepts. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation. Transgender on the other hand encompases prefered presentation, social roll and gender identity.

I suspect that gay men tend to have parts of the brain quite feminised compared to a lot of straight men, and perhaps comparable to trans girls. The reality is some gay men are transgendered - i.e. some ftm's, crossdressers and drag queens. A lot of gay men also are gender queer in the eyes of society. So they have a bit in common with the transgendered, there is likely to be some over lap. But If a gay man does not identify as being transgendered then they are not. Pretty simple. I know lots of gay men who are much more girly than I am - yet they are gay and I am transgendered. The most important difference here is they consider themselves men and identify as men, I don't and find it abhorent.

Just because you are gay does not mean you are transgendered. You can be both, one or the other. I think they might be related but can be totally independent of each other.

Well i can agree with you on that one...But can i add something, i Personaly think i am Transgender->or whatever you call it "Born as a boy but always wishes that he was a GIRL" and i know Many many many "Gays and Queers" who are the same its matter of how far they can take that, can they take that to a Next step and become one?
And sometimes what they look like doesn't mean what they are deep down inside.
Not everyone can be as Brave as many Transexuals "today", because its a very Big step to take, its a very risky step to take, its not for everyone and not everyone have that caurage to do it. I give a big hand to them.

---

Post Merge: October 27, 2009, 02:39:27 PM

---

Quote from: Miniar on October 27, 2009, 12:47:39 PM
I'm a pansexual male (with female bits.. but working on that) in a homosexual marriage with another pansexual male.
IF my transsexuality was about having sex with the gender-appropriate partner, then I shouldn't be wanting to change my sex... and in fact, if that hypothesis is correct, I should be seeking a female partner, not my tall, strong, intelligent man of a partner.. *sighs slightly* Boy really gets my blood flowing..

er.. where was I...

Oh right.
If "gay men" are all actually "trans women", does that mean I'm a transwoman?

SO Whats your point? More Power to you and your Pansexuality -> Rock ON Darlin!
I only love str8 man -> I know excactly what i LIKE ( i am stuffed )LOL because str8 man wants a GIRL or at least boy with boobs "->-bleeped-<-"...
No str8 man wants a hot boyish guy...Well not more then 1 night stand at least.

Edited for language

I would just like to remind everyone to keep it civil. I can see things getting a bit heated in this topic but there is no need for personal attacks.

Thanks
Nicki

Quote from: Nicky on October 27, 2009, 05:02:48 PM
I would just like to remind everyone to keep it civil. I can see things getting a bit heated in this topic but there is no need for personal attacks.

Thanks
Nicki

Where do you or did you read the personal attacks? :o

Quote from: kimwilde12 on October 27, 2009, 04:28:30 PM
Well i can agree with you on that one...But can i add something, i Personaly think i am Transgender->or whatever you call it "Born as a boy but always wishes that he was a GIRL" and i know Many many many "Gays and Queers" who are the same its matter of how far they can take that, can they take that to a Next step and become one?
And sometimes what they look like doesn't mean what they are deep down inside.
Not everyone can be as Brave as many Transexuals "today", because its a very Big step to take, its a very risky step to take, its not for everyone and not everyone have that caurage to do it. I give a big hand to them.

OK, I think I can see what you're implying here, but I'm just going to re-iterate what other people have been saying:

sexual orientation, sexual preferences, internal gender identity, and personal gender expression are four different things.

*sexual orientation is static, it is generally unchanging and probably hard-wired -- or at least such is the prevailing hypothesis and probable theory based on EEG (brainwave) patterns

*sexual preferences are fluid and in most people change somewhat in a person's lifetime.  Sexual preferences are such things like Dominant/submissive/Switch, Top/Bottom/Versatile, Active/Passive, etc.  Preferences can include things like BD/Sm, Leather and other fetishes, paraphilias, and so forth.  Preferences can also include people with genuine bisexual orientations, but who prefer either the same sex or opposite sex at different points in one's life.  Sexual preferences are largely influenced by environmental factors -- upbringing, social circles, etc....  Paraphilias are less understood, but some psychologists still feel that they are still triggered by environmental factors.

*gender identity is how one relates to one's biological sex.  The typical set up of man/male and woman/female is how over 99% of people relate (the University of Michigan recently published a paper suggesting that TS/TG persons may be as many as 1 in 500, but that's still 0.2% of the population -- at most; more consistent statistics say that TS persons are 1 in every 5,000, on average).  When TS persons happen, for whatever reason we may happen, essentially some "wire got crossed" in the person's internal gender identity, and that leads to people who are biologically male having an instinctual drive of being women and biological females having an instinctual drive of being men (there are also people who feel that their gender identity is "Other" and have all sorts of words and self-definitions of what that "Other" is; the most common "Others" I've noticed are "Androgyne" and "Genderqueer").  There are many hypotheses, but nobody is quite sure how or why this happens, but the long and short of it is that gender identity is typically immutable, static, unchanging; some confusion may lie in the facts of 1) people who are determined "male" at birth are often socialised to be very good at repressing their feelings and emotions, which could lead to years or decades of a person living as a gender identity that they truly feel is wrong for them, and 2) people determined "female" at birth have immense freedom of gender expression in most places of Western civilization, but do to the pressures to still socially identify themselves as "women", may still ultimately be repressing their true gender identities for years.

*gender expression is how one expresses their gender identity.  Gender identity is common described within three variables: Masculine, Feminine, and Androgynous.  Most people consider most things to be either "masculine [or men's] interests" (like auto-mobiles), "feminine [or women's] interests" (like needlework) or "androgynous [or neutral] interests" (like cooking).  Most people have a mix of all three interests with one or two categories being dominant.  Therefore, a male person with a gender identity of Man may still have "feminine" interests dominating without it really contradicting his gender identity -- he's simply expressing himself as a feminine man.  Gender expression is also rather fluid for a large number of (if not most) people -- Freddie Mercury, for example, at the beginning of his career had a rather feminine/androgynous expression, but then went to very overtly masculine, then starkly androgynous toward the end of his life.  Furthermore, gender expression really has no bearing on sexual orientation -- James Dean is an example of a rather masculine-expressed man-identified male with "androgynous" interests (poetry and philosophy) and most of his surviving friends have confirmed that he was bisexual with a preference toward men.  Rock musician Marc Bolan was rather feminine/androgynously-expressed throughout his entire career, and had come out in interview as being bisexual with a strong preference toward women.  Prince is incredibly feminine/androgynous and has maintained in interviews throughout his career that he's totally heterosexual in orientation and ex-girlfriends have stated that he has a preference for being the dominant partner in the relationship.

(edited for format readability)

To the OP: Flaming queens =/= transgender.

While sometimes a TS/TG woman in denial that LIKES MEN might choose to identify as gay in some part of her life. She with coming out and transition will stop using that label.

But gays guys are just that... guys that like other guys.

Quote from: kimwilde12 on October 27, 2009, 04:28:30 PMSO Whats your point? More Power to you and your Pansexuality -> Rock ON Darlin!
I only love str8 man -> I know excactly what i LIKE ( i am stuffed )LOL because str8 man wants a GIRL or at least boy with boobs "->-bleeped-<-"...
No str8 man wants a hot boyish guy...Well not more then 1 night stand at least.

My point is. Being attracted to any person or type of person is sexuality.
Sexuality is Not gender identity, and the two are Not directly connected.

You wanting to be with men that are straight. = YOUR sexual attraction.

People who are transsexual and change their sex don't do it so they can bag "that guy" or "that girl".
I'm not becoming the man I am because I want to get my hands on straight women.

Sexchange is something people pursue because they know that they are supposed to be men/women and the fact that their bodies aren't right is making life impossible for them because it hurts them to simply be the way they were born.

If you pursue a sex change just to get a straight man, then you're not a transsexual.
Simple as that.

Eh..i dont know!

BUt i know that there are feminine and masculine gays and most feminines love there body! They love there cock-a-doodle-doo! just like some trans women like there cock- a- doodle- doo, but still take hormones to get that feminine look. All for all, Male Gays feel as if they are MALE (gender not sexuality) transgendered feel if they are FEMALE (again, gender not sexuality)

Oh god, I wasn't going to participate in this one but it's just so mind bending. Renate and Chloe pretty much summed up the important parts, the rest is just details and I can't contribute any more. I did want to mention this however, for what it's worth:

QuoteI think for average GAY man life is kinda lonely

This wasn't my experience and it's a god aweful stereotype. Prior to starting transition I had a rich social life and a successful long term romance. We didn't hang around gay bars and gyms though, we actually met in a library ;)

For the average promiscuous barfly, life is kinda lonely regardless of their gender.
I did this and lost nearly everyone I love and held dear as a matter of identity, not to get laid by straight guys.

Im really sorry that you are only attracted to straight men, that is pretty dificult believe me I know. However that doesnt make you a transwoman, and the fact that your saying it does only enables people to use the gay panic defense.
I have been attracted to straight men plenty of times, but the fact that they see me as a girl disgusts me. 

Quote from: Kyle XD on October 27, 2009, 09:36:42 PM
Im really sorry that you are only attracted to straight men, that is pretty dificult believe me I know. However that doesnt make you a transwoman, and the fact that your saying it does only enables people to use the gay panic defense.
I have been attracted to straight men plenty of times, but the fact that they see me as a girl disgusts me.

!!! I get the same dilemma! I've felt the other person expect me to be the top/knight/etc before just cause of my parts or do any of the male roles in the relationship... Like... YEAH SURE You're a girl, but I'm still gonna treat you like a guy.

She thought i used her... :D ... ... Even though anything sexual we did I did just for her.

Disgust is right dude. :P


And with this thread, I kinda smell a troll.

Quote from: Kara-Xen on October 27, 2009, 10:34:15 PM
And with this thread, I kinda smell a troll.

What she said...

Quote from: Deanna_Renee on October 27, 2009, 10:39:28 PM
What she said...

Ditto -- I just didn't want to be the one to say it.

I'm a cis man who's had quite a few gay & bi friends myself and my observations do not concur with the OP.  Sure, there are the lisping, effeminate gay stereotypes out there but I definitely did not see that to be anywhere near consistent.  They identify as men and many of them are very masculine in character, deportment and identity.

You even see this in well known gay men. Rock Hudson -> closet trans woman?  I don't think so.  Ron Kray -> gay yes, psycho definitely, closet trans woman?  Uhh no.

Now, it is true that I have observed a statistical bias to the versatile/bottom with less "top only" gay men but that's probably more due to the pleasure of physical penetration than any latent ->-bleeped-<-.

There might be some out there that are potentially trans but that would align with many stories I've read here - when a person struggling with gender incongruity first thinks they must be gay and adopts that lifestyle before realizing that it's actually dysphoria and that they're trans.  I don't think these numbers would support the OP's hypothesis to any statistically significant degree.

Finally, I'd be less quick on the "troll" trigger - contentious and minority points of view do exist and these should be discussed when they arise.  However, if they are being used as a deliberately inflammatory tactic then yeah ok - call troll. I'd let the mod team worry about that, though.

(One or two may have implied the same of me, on the basis that I'm cis and therefore couldn't possibly be here for any legitimate purpose - despite being the SO of a trans person  ::) )

Quote from: finewine on October 28, 2009, 02:22:21 AM
Finally, I'd be less quick on the "troll" trigger - contentious and minority points of view do exist and these should be discussed when they arise.  However, if they are being used as a deliberately inflammatory tactic then yeah ok - call troll. I'd let the mod team worry about that, though.

I hate to generalize about gay male populations in other cities when my own personal experience is limited to one city (not NY). But I have done quite a lot of reading on the history and theory of gay communities, and I have to say that virtually NOTHING that I've experienced or read is consistent with the experiences and observations that the OP talks about. So I do smell a rat, but not necessarily a troll. If his/her experiences are genuine, then they could be inaccurately interpreted or filtered, I guess. Or the population in question could be a particularly unrepresentative sample. But the OP does seem to come from an outsider position and not a well-informed one at that. I see all sorts of confusion with gender ID, sexual orientation, sexual acts and preferences, etc. that aren't fully logical the way they've been explained. Kimwilde, care to comment?

Why are they running after straight men. When straight men clearly are straight and do not want men. No matter how much gay porn you watch it isn't how straight men are. I am a straight man. So I transition to be with women!?! When I could have easly stayed as a butch lesbain

Your the reason why trans people have to fight so damn hard.. >:(

Jay

OK... you Girls and boys etc tellling me -> if there was a Button to push "MANY MANY MANY Gays would ve Not transfer themselves to a Woman or a Girl?"
Whatever you say -> Sure  :D you can bring me  History, Doctors, Therpists ...i still will believe what i believe.
There is nothing more in this world then EXPERIENCE and i have more experience in my 12 years then ...i can or you can imagine.
most gay guys reffer to each other "HEy girl whats up" Hey girl you look hot" this are gay man (who re very comfortable being man? according to u) reffer to each other. Same moment when str8 man passes by them they drull...U WANT to tell me they are VERY Comfortable?
THEY ARE actually -they HAVE to be WE HAVE TO BE
I am a Gay man -> I might Never do the surgery and choose to live my life as a man for the rest of my life...ala "Rock Hudson" ...but that doesn't mean i am or will be Happy. Simple as that.
NOW IF You ask me "What would you wish" ?
I WISH ->we GAY man who are attracted to str8 man and i  interview hunders of thousand GAY Man (they are all say they find str8 man very hot and they re attracted to str8 man), i wish str8 man would treat us like they treat Girls or boys, or give us a chance to have ROMANCE with us. IF THAT will make them Bi-then i wish World had much more bi's
Like i wish there was NO Judgment towards sexuality, towards gender, that MAN could ve marry anyone he wants or fall in love with anyone he wants.
My God, i have this str8 guy friend his name is CRHIS (greek hunk) he came with me to this big nightclub Gay club in NYC, after 1 hour he had 2000 Tel' #s, they were grabbing him they were touching him,  "Ohh you re soo hoot, you want to have sex  w me?" this guy told me,, OMG I have never had so much offers in my life then in this 1 hour at this club, in the end Drag Queen went on stage took microphone and said to him, "are you str8?I me & you will be in desert island and you will be only with me" Finally i had to take this poor guy our of that club with security.. it was like MADONNA walking in the club thats how popular he was.
str8 man in Gay club. (There we go).

Its simply, you are pushing your point of view as if it were universally true because you want it to be that way. You feel that you are right because you want to justify your position towards trans and transition.

Thats it, if you feel you might be trans. But since you are exactly as you described in your post. Its just that, because that seems real to you even if isnt.

The thing is, gay guys arent female. They are male and thats it. And the stereotypical behavior of adopting some female behavior isnt going to let them become women.

Quote from: kimwilde12 on October 28, 2009, 07:41:59 AM
[...] you can bring me  History, Doctors, Therpists ...i still will believe what i believe.
[...]

Hehe, well if that's your approach to reasoned argument it makes further discussion redundant. (Reminds me of the folks who believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old no matter how much scientific observation disagrees with them).

You have a nice day!

QuoteOK... you Girls and boys etc tellling me -> if there was a Button to push "MANY MANY MANY Gays would ve Not transfer themselves to a Woman or a Girl?"

No because they are fine with there gender idenity.. otherwise they would have done something about it ::) I have laughed with gay men who said it would be easier but they wouldn't want to be a woman.

QuoteThere is nothing more in this world then EXPERIENCE and i have more experience in my 12 years then ...i can or you can imagine.

Oh sorry I didn't realise you are the only person to ever meet or talk to a "gay man" oh sorry trans woman..  ^-^

You really shouldn't push your small minded views onto every one else. Fair enough believe what you want to believe.

Jay

Quote from: Jessica Oz on October 28, 2009, 08:46:11 AM
Hmmmmm, kinda had the same thought.

All in favor of calling for a lock, please raise your hands.

-Sandy (hand raised)

That's terribly closed minded of you. To completely deny the possibility that you may be wrong regardless of how much evidence given to the contrary.
It's not healthy.

Quote from: Sandy on October 28, 2009, 09:12:24 AM
All in favor of calling for a lock, please raise your hands.

-Sandy (hand raised)

yeah, it kinda run itself into the ground with the OP still not getting it, and some other things

TOPIC LOCKED.