Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hidding, divisive, taboo? I missed the buss on this, but appearently this is something very important? What am I missing? I've been on hrt for almost 10yrs, but I don't know about this stealth. Is this what the cool ts people are donig, or is just rouge group? Do I have to stealth to move fowarad? Please, will someone tell me about this stealth.

No one here really cares about being stealth. 

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bilderkiste.de%2Fphpcliparts%2Fmedia%2Fsmilie_bombe.gif&hash=6a54f896744b8d02506f54a94f829198ccbbe704)

 *runs and ducks in a bunker, ready for the stealth debate firebombing*

...j/k.

But it's not like NO ONE cares about being stealth, Julie. I plan on practicing some/mostly stealth when I'm done with transition. No one will know outside of my serious sig other/doctor/family I plan on keeping up with.

ducks waiting for the explosions to start...who threw that grenade.... really couldnt you just nuke them lol
jessica

I know they're here, waiting to pounce... :icon_suspicious:

Will this stealth protect me from danger? Where do I get this stealth, is it secret?

For myself, I'd rather the rest of the world wasn't privy to my medical history.  In such a fashion I suppose that would put me into the category of those who want to be stealth...at least that's how I feel at the moment.  It's funny though because I find the more passable I become, the less I care about trying to be stealthy about it. 

Quote from: Maddie Secutura on November 05, 2009, 01:42:09 PM
It's funny though because I find the more passable I become, the less I care about trying to be stealthy about it.

I would expect so, since the more passable you are, you don't have to TRY to be stealth.  If your completely passable no one will know unless you mention it.

Speaking of Stealth in such a way as "Pretending" to be born a female.  If your passable what's the point of not being stealth?  Seriously, mentally we are female (or male in the case of FTM) so if we have full tranistioned and lets say we live where no one "knows" us what's the point in being open about it?  If we pass easily so that no one will notice, and we were mentally born female, what's wrong with saying we have been that way our whole life?

Sure some people will say "But if you get in a relationship, they are bound to notice the lack of periods, the hormones we have to take, and dialating.  Not to mention we can't get pregnant."  Ok sure, but still as long as that person is not a gynocologist there's one excuse that covers all of those issues....


Hysterectomy.  Removal of the uterus means no more periods, if the ovaries are removed as well, then a even a genetic female must take HRT to prevent early onset of menopause, as well as getting some undesirable features (such as facial hair due to increase in testostrone).  As for dialating, the vaginal canal becoming distended is an issue with hysterectomies, so you can say it's a preventitive measure against that.

That said, if I ever fully transition, I'd love to move away with my wife to somewhere no one knows me, and be perma stealth.  Only my wife need know, because she knew me before.  Anyone new I meet, can go suck a lemon.

To me, the benefits of being imperceptible (I don't like the term stealth because it implies deception) are many because of prejudice, intolerance and ignorance.  That we treat men differently than women is unimportant to me (I don't need to be TREATED like a woman).  Female is just part of my identity but it doesn't define me.  I act differently than men because I am different than men.  That comes from my female nature.

The idea of interacting in public without anyone knowing my birth gender is not on my mind anymore.  It's just not a conscious thought.  So the concept of "stealth" has no importance to me unless you're talking about military stuff.  ;)

Julie

Quote from: Adrianna on November 05, 2009, 02:02:12 PM
Not to mention we can't get pregnant

I think it would be awesome to tell a guy he got me pregnant, just to milk it for a week or so. Imagine all the guilt free midnight milkshakes and free backrubs, mmm.

As long as there's room in the hanger for his airplane...

Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 05, 2009, 03:47:32 PM
As long as there's room in the hanger for his airplane...

Well are we talking one of those big heavy bombers or one of those cute little zippy ones?

Oh let's go for the zippy ones! Maybe we can get one as part of the divorce after we miscarry .....  >:-)

Could be one or the other...or BOTH!?!?

I dunno, the little zippy ones are fun, but the big heavy ones are a heck of a lot more interesting.

Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 05, 2009, 10:50:07 AM
Will this stealth protect me from danger? Where do I get this stealth, is it secret?

Will this stealth protect you from danger?  Of course it will.  When you decide to go stealth you grow a pair of wings that will protect you like a shield of steel.

Where do you get this stealth? - It's commonly found on deserted islands, usually in comfortable, moderate climates.

And yes it is secret - there are several here in fact.  The problem is you don't know who they are cause they are Stealth.

I believe that that stealth is all about how private you want to keep your personal life, or, more accurately, how private you want to "TRY" and keep your personal life.  It's something we do everyday, it's something everyone does everyday to some extent.

Hey! I know why not let some of the wizards who populate this board derive a "Stealth Scale"?  We could have level indicators to tag on the end of the other terms we assign ourselves.  For example: Post-op Stealth level 1 etc.  down through Level 5 (Don't want to be too diverse) :)

-={LR}=-

Since I have become very chatty since starting RLE/HRT and sometimes find my mouth gets going faster than my good sense, I don't see stealth in my future. :P

Now, the other day I saw some guys all dressed in black with guns on their belts and those communication devices in their ears (what are those called?).  They looked like they thought they were pretty stealthy.  One or two of them looked like they might be worth going for stealth if it included them. ;)

- Kate

So...you see them to? Do you really see them, or are you really trying to keep us from seeing THEM? & now I go off on a very effective episode about how everyone is jealous of my beauty...

Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 05, 2009, 10:39:10 PM
now I go off on a very effective episode about how everyone is jealous of my beauty...

...and how you transitioned at 10 and started hrt at 12 and the rest of us are hopeless linebackers.

feels the stealth cross hairs pointing at everyone of us.....who will they shoot first...p-a-r-a-n-o-i-a....
jessica

Quote from: K8 on November 05, 2009, 05:48:20 PM
Now, the other day I saw some guys all dressed in black with guns on their belts and those communication devices in their ears (what are those called?).  They looked like they thought they were pretty stealthy.  One or two of them looked like they might be worth going for stealth if it included them. ;)

- Kate

I've seen some of those guys playing about on the beach carrying logs and rubber boats about and yelling at each other. Every so often one of them will ring a bell. Then a bunch of them will gather up their toys and go play with other folks

The other mermaids and I can't help but giggle as we watch them play about  :laugh:

Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 04, 2009, 10:05:05 PM
Hidding, divisive, taboo? I missed the buss on this, but appearently this is something very important? What am I missing? I've been on hrt for almost 10yrs, but I don't know about this stealth. Is this what the cool ts people are donig, or is just rouge group? Do I have to stealth to move fowarad? Please, will someone tell me about this stealth.

It's usually the one's that pass 100% who are stealth. I try and be stealth and it works most of the time but I know I'm not as passable as some who are able to pass 100% in every situation. I've also been on HRT for 10 years but I am aware I still need to work harder than I am to achieve my goal.

It's important not to knock those who have achieved their goal or those who started very young and HRT worked well for them and they are able to live undetected as a normal fermale. Many of you knock success and many of the successful TS's also knock us or look down upon us. We should all except who we are and where we are no matter what the situation.

Personally, I live stealth.

I don't see why this animosity exists so blatently in the trans community... 99% of stealth people really don't care about 'putting non stealth down'.

Here's a quick rundown of my week...

Monday: Class, work, see friends (No time to put down non stealth ts)
Teusday: Class, Library, Friends, (no time... getting the message?)
Rest of week: no time for putting down transfolk on the internet,...

I, as a functional member of society am quite busy.... I rarely get chance to reflect on trans.... and when I do, I really can't see a benefit to putting anyone down. It wouldn't benefit me.... or make me feel better.

What is stealth?

Stealth is getting the hell on with life, and not having people go 'oh hey look its a dude!'

Anything else is 'my vagina is deeper than yours!' Syndrome.

I've been here a couple of weeks, and ive seen 4 topics on stealth... A lot of people either have the memories of goldfish, or need to grow up.

Dee, I don't hate you.  Personally, I don't bother with stealth because no one around here seems to care whether I'm TS or not, so why should I?  I am also of an age where dating is pretty far down on my to-do list (somewhere below vacuuming out my car, I think ::)).

I, and I think many others here, understand your attitude given your situation.  I've been blessed with never having lived in your area, but if I did I think I would be trying to figure out a way to move away.  But if you can't afford a name-change, that probably isn't in the cards.

Hang in there, dear.  You've got a tougher road to walk than many of us do.  And try to stay out of those canals.

- Kate

Oh, and if "stealth" is just living as you are - a woman with an odd past that you don't talk about but don't worry about hiding - then I guess I'm stealth.

Complete stealth seems impossible for me. I operate with a "Don't ask, Don't tell" mentality and it seems to work quite good.

The places where stealth is impossible are:
* doctors, "so why are you taking that much estrogen"
* living partners, "so why are you dilating"
* people doing background checks, "so why do the state records list an old inactive male social security number for you"

Also sometimes rumors are an issue, someone hears gossip, but that is quite rare these days.

You know reading this thread tells me I really should lurk more.  Is there really that much arrogance, dislike, and bad feelings between those that pass well?  And those that do not?  Those that choose stealth and those who choose to be open about it? I mean does it really effect them in any way?  As long as someone is not forcing their belief on you who cares?

I have never understood that part of humanity that does this to others and I doubt I ever will.

Myself though?  Down the road?  I do not plan to tell a soul.  I will have fixed the problem and have moved on.  My business is my own and the world has no right to it.  Especially not when I've seen the way it treats one another when it gets a hold of anyone's secrets good or bad.  I can only hope I pass well enough that I raise very few eyebrows if any.

I think Bellas original point was to kind of laugh at ourselves for the way we always get our collective panties all knotted up over this topic and wind up in big dramatic debates. Come on kids let's just drink some of her foul corked wine, do our nails and talk about boys instead of arguing over this again lol.

Quote from: Korlee on November 09, 2009, 08:11:03 AM
You know reading this thread tells me I really should lurk more.  Is there really that much arrogance, dislike, and bad feelings between those that pass well?  And those that do not?  Those that choose stealth and those who choose to be open about it? I mean does it really effect them in any way? 

I'm going to get flamed for this.... But 99% of argument and disquiet in such topics, comes from the non stealth people.... and they have the audacity to claim 'stealth' people are hostile to them....



Wake up.... we really dont give a flying badger about whether you pass or not, or choose to live your life as 'out' 'in' or 'shake it all about'.

As many have said here, lets just get on with life...


As for boys; Where do I sign up? Boys are fun :D

Last week the same boy fed me all I could eat coconut shrimp, then a few days later he took me to a steakhouse to pick at a bowl of pasta while he devoured a steak that I swear still had a pulse. I think he has a thing for fat girls because he was very concerned about the volume of
my meals. Boys are awesome, lol, even when they aren't trying. Besides that they smell yummy.

I seriously do not see why people being stealth or non-stealth should ever be an issue. I know someone claimed that non-stealth is hostile to the stealth people but personally I never saw it.

Everyone should just respect each other's decision to be stealth or not and worry about other things much more important like what color you are going to paint your nails this weekend. Everyone has their own reasons for living their life the way they want.

I suppose "stealth" is impossible. I had SRS at 24, in 1974, and no other surgery. My doctors know my medical history and some of my friends.

I spent 24 hours on the weekend with a straight guy who doesn't know and I think he might have been suspecting something "out of the ordinary" by the time we parted but NOBODY ever gets a closer look or closer experience than that (if you know what I mean  :o  ;) )

So am I "stealth" or not? I don't care.

Stealth to me just means living my life without broadcasting things all over the place.

I know I can't hide my past from people who knew me before, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and admit to your past (like when the high school reunion committee called), but so what.

What's the big deal with just wanting to live your life without all the drama.

Sarah L.

Quote from: Becca on November 09, 2009, 10:59:43 AM
Last week the same boy fed me all I could eat coconut shrimp, then a few days later he took me to a steakhouse to pick at a bowl of pasta while he devoured a steak that I swear still had a pulse. I think he has a thing for fat girls because he was very concerned about the volume of
my meals. Boys are awesome, lol, even when they aren't trying. Besides that they smell yummy.

Some day my dreamboat will sail in, sweep me off my feet, & buy me anything I want off the $menu! I hope he drives a nice car too...

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 09, 2009, 10:53:05 AM
I'm going to get flamed for this.... But 99% of argument and disquiet in such topics, comes from the non stealth people.... and they have the audacity to claim 'stealth' people are hostile to them....
...

What is really inflammatory is remarks like this.  You prove to me right now that 99% of "Non-Stealth" folks do that.  I doubt very much that you know 100% of either the stealth or the non-stealth folks here.

Folks should focus on the question posed which was:

QuoteIs this what the cool ts people are donig, or is just rouge group? Do I have to stealth to move fowarad? Please, will someone tell me about this stealth.

Geeze!

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on November 09, 2009, 04:27:29 PM
What is really inflammatory is remarks like this.  You prove to me right now that 99% of "Non-Stealth" folks do that.  I doubt very much that you know 100% of either the stealth or the non-stealth folks here.

Folks should focus on the question posed which was:

Geeze!

-={LR}=-

And just what is THAT suposed to imply?!?! And what is the name of that Red Hot Chili Peppers song about the airplane?

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Quote from: Ladyrider on November 09, 2009, 04:27:29 PM
What is really inflammatory is remarks like this.  You prove to me right now that 99% of "Non-Stealth" folks do that.  I doubt very much that you know 100% of either the stealth or the non-stealth folks here.

Folks should focus on the question posed which was:

Geeze!

-={LR}=-

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Quote from: Ladyrider on November 09, 2009, 04:27:29 PM
What is really inflammatory is remarks like this.  You prove to me right now that 99% of "Non-Stealth" folks do that.  I doubt very much that you know 100% of either the stealth or the non-stealth folks here.

Folks should focus on the question posed which was:

Geeze!

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 09, 2009, 04:51:02 PM
And just what is THAT suposed to imply?!?! And what is the name of that Red Hot Chili Peppers song about the airplane?

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Huh???

-={LR}=-

I think that that the disagreement is much more about what 'stealth' means.

I don't think most people can be totally stealth as that typically requires changing countries and ceasing all contact with family, otherwise e.g. people doing background checks will know.

Quote from: Ladyrider on November 09, 2009, 04:27:29 PM
What is really inflammatory is remarks like this.  You prove to me right now that 99% of "Non-Stealth" folks do that.  I doubt very much that you know 100% of either the stealth or the non-stealth folks here.

Folks should focus on the question posed which was:

Geeze!

-={LR}=-

If you read that properly, you'd see i said 99% of arguments, not 99% of non stealth people.

I don't have any animosity toward other transsexual people who don't want to be around me, whatever their reasons might be. I only know a couple others even remotely nearby though and I don't particularly like them as people, regardless of anything else.

Although, if a woman with transsexual history living in stealth didn't want to be around me, well, I really wouldn't know that would I.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 09, 2009, 05:39:39 PM
If you read that properly, you'd see i said 99% of arguments, not 99% of non stealth people.

My mistake, I apologize for that.  So I'll rephrase...

Show me where:

Quote99% of argument and disquiet in such topics, comes from the non stealth people

....

It's general statements like this which create division.  I think it would be fair to say there are probably an equal number from each camp who have this we-they attitude.  It serves no purpose but to boost ego's.

-={LR}=-

Why don't you read the 5 recent stealth topics? Its pretty self evident frankly.

I can't see where the ego boost is... and From my own recolection of those topics, its mostly involved those that are stealth defending themselves and thier lives from snide jibes and digs.... Generally revolving around how 'sneaky/deceptive/cowardly/into weird foods' we are.

The only ego boosting I see is in defense of that viewpoint.

I'm honestly fairly suprised that members of the trans community persecute so blatently within thier own ranks.... For gods sake people, we get enough outside... what the hell are we doing sniping and bitching and moaning at eachother and discrediting other ways of living when we ourselves demand to live how we want?

The hypocracy surounding this entire subject, both sides, and any outcome, is almost toxic.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 09, 2009, 06:47:52 PM
Why don't you read the 5 recent stealth topics? Its pretty self evident frankly.

I can't see where the ego boost is... and From my own recolection of those topics, its mostly involved those that are stealth defending themselves and thier lives from snide jibes and digs.... Generally revolving around how 'sneaky/deceptive/cowardly/into weird foods' we are.

The only ego boosting I see is in defense of that viewpoint.

I'm honestly fairly suprised that members of the trans community persecute so blatently within thier own ranks.... For gods sake people, we get enough outside... what the hell are we doing sniping and bitching and moaning at eachother and discrediting other ways of living when we ourselves demand to live how we want?

The hypocracy surounding this entire subject, both sides, and any outcome, is almost toxic.

Errr I think I said:

QuoteIt's general statements like this which create division.  I think it would be fair to say there are probably an equal number from each camp who have this we-they attitude.  It serves no purpose but to boost ego's.

Boost ego's on both sides.  Both sides are the cause of the hypocrisy.  We seem to agree on this n'cest pas :)

-={LR}=-

People like to boost their own egos, think their opinion is the only way, some get a nice kick out of degrading others as they feel it makes them not look so bad.  That is ingrained in humanity as far as I can tell and I will never understand it nor do I want to do so.  The act of degrading someones opinion for any reason is always a bad act.  There are always ways to argue/debate without making it personal.

It doesn't surprise me that even here there is some this.  However I can say it disappoints me greatly.  As others have said do we not see enough of this from our own families?  Friends that claimed they'd stick by us?  A biggot society still basing laws off religion and ways to make themselves feel comfortable.  Instead of what is right for us!  Ya, life ->-bleeped-<-ing blows but you don't push that on others!  No, matter how hard it gets.

Quote from: Korlee on November 09, 2009, 09:05:11 PM
People like to boost their own egos, think their opinion is the only way, some get a nice kick out of degrading others as they feel it makes them not look so bad.  That is ingrained in humanity as far as I can tell and I will never understand it nor do I want to do so.  The act of degrading someones opinion for any reason is always a bad act.  There are always ways to argue/debate without making it personal.

It doesn't surprise me that even here there is some this.  However I can say it disappoints me greatly.  As others have said do we not see enough of this from our own families?  Friends that claimed they'd stick by us?  A biggot society still basing laws off religion and ways to make themselves feel comfortable.  Instead of what is right for us!  Ya, life ->-bleeped-<-ing blows but you don't push that on others!  No, matter how hard it gets.

Amen Gurl!

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Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 09, 2009, 09:29:23 PM
Amen Gurl!

Can this Gurl get another Amen? Anyone? 

Quote from: Laura91 on November 09, 2009, 09:36:41 PM
AAAAAAAAMEN!!

Aw, c'mone people, it's an easy word that doesn't require anything upfront or there after.

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Quote from: Laura91 on November 09, 2009, 09:36:41 PM
AAAAAAAAMEN!!

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Quote from: Laura91 on November 09, 2009, 09:36:41 PM
AAAAAAAAMEN!!

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Oh & I also understand that getting along will never be as much fun dissemboweling each other over as important as, as, as,...oh it's on the tip of my tounge. Oh...I'm not any good at all at resposible adult stuff. 

I never did understand that whole evangelical christianity thing... heh.

Stealth, the subject that will never die...

The issue that will never be settled...

Abortion

     Religion

         Politics

               Stealth

                    How about just be?

Julie

I spent all this time fighting other gurls over boys, when there are all these other really important issues to fight over boys.

Where is this hate and discontent at? Please show us links to conversations in the forum where non-stealth are attacking stealth folks? All I see is someone trying to stir up trouble perhaps from their own twisted perspective.  I don't see it so show me.

Well, I don't belive i have a twisted persepective, or wish to stir up trouble. I'm rather sick of the trouble myself...

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,65546.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,65546.0.html) This topic is a perfect example.

for simplicity, non out people, vs out people.... The out people start the topic, and suggest hostility towards them, from non out people... 'on the internet' 'somewhere'.

Every response from someone that lives or identifies as stealth is sensible, calm and inoffensive. Yet others still make suggestions that stealth people 'look down' on them, and 'want to feel better.

I'm afraid I only see  petty bickering.

I can't possibly see a reason to look down on those people that are in the position I was three years ago... or that choose to be out.... Hell, it may create some problems, but it sure solves some.
Living 'unknown' has its own huge checklist of problems. Situations one wouldnt have problems with if they were out. The whole massive argument and jelousy seems to be a case of the house with the golden windows.... Everything looks better from a distance.

So it just seems perhaps there is just an interpretation of what some see.

I hate to see bickering back and forth. I should probably just stay away from threads like this.

One thing is for certain, I see no reason our community should divide over personal choices we make. I am/will be out to everyone as transsexual because it is my personal choice and I have no ill feelings for anyone that chooses to go stealth. We all have our own lives to live how we want to live them.

It comes over to me that you are still pre transition or early on Dana, without sounding condesending ( well its hard not to after saying it), your perspective can change as you transition, and as you get a taste of normality and invisibility... its intoxicating to be normal finally. I do notice a lot of the 'out and proud' mentalities coming from pre and early transition folk. (not entirely, but a predominance it apears)  I wonder if that plays a role? ( hell I was out at one point, we all were)

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 10, 2009, 07:27:02 AM
It comes over to me that you are still pre transition or early on Dana, without sounding condesending ( well its hard not to after saying it), your perspective can change as you transition, and as you get a taste of normality and invisibility... its intoxicating to be normal finally. I do notice a lot of the 'out and proud' mentalities coming from pre and early transition folk. (not entirely, but a predominance it apears)  I wonder if that plays a role? ( hell I was out at one point, we all were)

I am a fairly dynamic person and realize things can change. I am currently in a job I plan on retiring from one day and most of my coworkers and friends know about my transition (i am in the early stages). So far I feel more comfortable in my own skin than I ever have before. I really don't see myself ever going stealth but like you said! Time will tell.

You're right.

In my first year at college, i transitioned, and people knew and it was ok, but i felt like 'another' class especially because i was 'accepted'. I suspect an aspect of peer pressure and general attitude at my age, that i wanted to be 'like every other girl' and aspired to be like the role models I'd found. I expect trans just didn't fit in there... I never actively decided to hide, and still dont, it just never comes up, and i have no reason to. Happiness is in the heart.

Quote from: Dana Lane on November 10, 2009, 06:59:04 AM
So it just seems perhaps there is just an interpretation of what some see.

I hate to see bickering back and forth. I should probably just stay away from threads like this.

One thing is for certain, I see no reason our community should divide over personal choices we make. I am/will be out to everyone as transsexual because it is my personal choice and I have no ill feelings for anyone that chooses to go stealth. We all have our own lives to live how we want to live them.

That's exactly right Dana.

We all make personal choices and those choices are our own bussiness, not anyone elses.  Yes the choices may affect others but I would hope that we take those concerned into consideration before they are made.

Stealth is one such choice.  The reasons we do or do not go stealth are our own bussiness no one elses.  We are the ones that must live with the decision.

Comparing reasons why I am or am not stealth is kinda pointless as each of us have circumstances that influences our choices.  So to those who are stealth - Good for you, and for those who are not - good for you as well.  As long as you are happy everything else doesn't matter.

-={LR}=-

I guess "Going stealth" is just another "choice" some of us have. Personally I would rather go completely stealth and physically that will never be a problem but it would mean leaving my family and friends behind which so far have been very supporting.
Am I been selfish by leaving them?

Again, this goes back to your definition of Stealth.

Steath to me does not mean leaving behind supporting family and/or friends.  Stealth means you live your life (male or female) and don't go around shouting it out to everyone.  Just live your daily life as you.

But this disagreement just goes on and on.  The two sides of the discussion will never come to full agreement, why not just let each person decide for themselves how they want to live their life.

Sarah L.

Quote from: clhere on November 10, 2009, 03:50:21 PM
I guess "Going stealth" is just another "choice" some of us have. Personally I would rather go completely stealth and physically that will never be a problem but it would mean leaving my family and friends behind which so far have been very supporting.
Am I been selfish by leaving them?

Possibly. If i had a loving family, I'd cherish that, sometimes love is more important... its possible to live totally stealth but to have your family...  well not totally, but its an exception id make.... if i had one.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on November 10, 2009, 04:15:14 PM
Again, this goes back to your definition of Stealth.

Steath to me does not mean leaving behind supporting family and/or friends.  Stealth means you live your life (male or female) and don't go around shouting it out to everyone.  Just live your daily life as you.

But this disagreement just goes on and on.  The two sides of the discussion will never come to full agreement, why not just let each person decide for themselves how they want to live their life.

Sarah L.

I know why there are two camps but I don't think it's polite to explain the issues. Non B is also right that obviously close family will know and you can't be stealth with them but they can help a lot by not spilling the beans to others or new friends.

I personally prefer to keep a low profile and would never volunteer the information but if it was medically nessesary I may have to explain my origins if needed. I also personally don't understand the need for 'here's my transition website' mentality. Each to their own I suppose!

Quote from: Sarah Louise on November 10, 2009, 04:15:14 PM
Again, this goes back to your definition of Stealth.

This is where I have problems with the whole argument.  I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

To me, stealth is living in your real gender after transition and disassociating from and actively hiding the fact that you ever lived in another gender.  I don't want to do that.

If by stealth, you mean just getting on with your life in your true gender but keeping contact with your family, friends, not bothering to change all your records (birth certificate, college degree, etc.), being unoncerned about letting something slip (e.g. I'm a woman who once was married to a woman), then I guess I'm already stealth.

Or perhaps stealth is something else?  ???

I think a lot of this "argument" we are having revolves around differing definitions of stealth.  Perhaps we should either preface our remarks with how we define stealth or start a new thread and argue about the definition itself.

- Kate

That second one isnt stealth...


Lets be literal shall we?

Stealth, as a concept, is living as your true gender, without those around you knowing about your birth sex. All records match, and it isn't possible to identify you as transsexual.

Very few are this.

I am not this...

I live as a female, very very few know, and its not even actively remembered now. My records for the most part (those I can change now) are female. I'm preop, but well... i don't tend to walk around naked.

Thats not stealth. That's fairly crafty if we must label it... Infact one could put a tail on it and call it a fox.... But it's not stealth.  The line is blurry.... but the concept we seem to all discuss here, is 'living as your true gender, without being identifiable as trans to average joe and jane. (Background checks, other id issues and knickers content aside.)

I've read more stealth posts than I care to remember and written more than I care to admit.  And what I've seen is this is one subject we have to agree to disagree.  Whatever stealth is to you is the correct definition.  No one has to agree with you.  No one has to live by your definition.

But I wonder if it's not really the definition that causes discussion of this subject to sometimes go nuclear.  I'm wondering if it's the realities of being seen as a trans person that causes many of us to get so emotional.

Let's face it, if you walk into a room and announce you are a "transsexual" everything changes in an instant.  No one will treat you the way they would if they didn't have that knowledge.  General "knowledge" about this issue is poor at best.  And many still believe it is a choice.  So, by putting your gender identity out there before anyone gets to know you is self destructive, unless that's why you're there (panel discussion, meetings, etc.)

The fact that you won't get a fair shake forces us to keep our history on a need to know basis.  And the more one feels being outed will hurt you, the more effort will be put into protecting that information from getting out.  So it's just common sense to keep your medical history private.

So when someone says, "I'm totally stealth" are they saying, "I've achieved something I've worked very hard to achieve and I'm proud to say so"?  Or are they saying, "I'm blessed and you're not"?

And I think that is where the animosity comes in.  So we debate endlessly the definition of stealth.  Possibly as a means to counter what we consider a personal attack?  I don't know.  But what I do know is society is basically ignorant about gender identity issues and trans lives and that makes our life so much harder than the lives of the general population.

Of course the occasional childish comment such as, "You're not stealth because you can't be" doesn't help matters at all.  So maybe those who feel the need to say such things should keep their comments to themselves if the ultimate goal is to make this world a better place for anyone who is trans, stealth or not.  Because even if you are stealth, there's always the chance you will be outed so even the stealth benefit from educating society about trans people.

Maybe once this world isn't so hostile towards us, the stealth debate will end.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 11, 2009, 01:18:47 PM
Maybe once this world isn't so hostile towards us, the stealth debate will end.

Julie

Amen, sister.

- Kate

Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 04, 2009, 10:05:05 PM
Is this what the cool ts people are doing, or is just rouge group?

We could also quit taking ourselves so seriously, this thread started out being a gentle, lighthearted laugh at ourselves.

Quote from: Becca on November 11, 2009, 02:15:07 PM
We could also quit taking ourselves so seriously, this thread started out being a gentle, lighthearted laugh at ourselves.

Becca nailed it(of course). I never wanted to start a s-storm & sit back & watch us turn on each other for s&giggles. I don't "get it" & don't need to. But maybe this is something we just have to air out. If this subject stirs up this much passsion, maybe it's better to just hash it out in the open. Many of us don't feel like we can talk about certain things anywhere, or to any one.

Quote from: Becca on November 11, 2009, 02:15:07 PM
We could also quit taking ourselves so seriously, this thread started out being a gentle, lighthearted laugh at ourselves.

I don't think a contentious issue is worth laughing at....

And I certainly don't think the life choice of some is worth laughing at either.

However we look at this, it's an important issue. If a topic was made 'jokingly' taking the mick out of being out, there would be uproar.

Julie: even if the world wasnt hostile to trans, I myself would still not be out about it. I want to live my life as the woman I was born, not some second class citizen. Nomatter what we do. for decades to come trans will be accepted. And acceptance is..... an oxymoron.

That's a very good point, and I hadn't looked at it that way. I'm sorry.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 11, 2009, 10:32:48 PM
Julie: even if the world wasnt hostile to trans, I myself would still not be out about it. I want to live my life as the woman I was born, not some second class citizen. Nomatter what we do. for decades to come trans will be accepted. And acceptance is..... an oxymoron.

I wasn't saying if the world wasn't hostile anyone would want to be out, only that the issue of stealth might lose it's importance. 

Your other comment about not wanting to be a second class citizen is just what I was referring to as one reason why stealth is so important to many of us.

In that imaginary world where being trans is about as abnormal as having red hair, many, if not all, of us wouldn't feel the need to be stealth.  And if being trans was the same as being beautiful in the eyes of society I'd think we'd bask in our good fortune.

Read about the Berdache and two spirit and imagine that being the case today.  Why would any of us want to be "just" a man or "just" a woman when we could be highly revered and respected simply because we are trans?  I'll take that world over being stealth any day.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 11, 2009, 11:11:05 PM
I wasn't saying if the world wasn't hostile anyone would want to be out, only that the issue of stealth might lose it's importance. 

Your other comment about not wanting to be a second class citizen is just what I was referring to as one reason why stealth is so important to many of us.

In that imaginary world where being trans is about as abnormal as having red hair, many, if not all, of us wouldn't feel the need to be stealth.  And if being trans was the same as being beautiful in the eyes of society I'd think we'd bask in our good fortune.

Read about the Berdache and two spirit and imagine that being the case today.  Why would any of us want to be "just" a man or "just" a woman when we could be highly revered and respected simply because we are trans?  I'll take that world over being stealth any day.

Julie

I for one would rather be treated like anyone else rather than revered.

I do agree with you though, if trans were accepted as simply another state of being whichever gender you are. Then I don't think there would be much need for stealth. I wouldn't go around advertising it, but I wouldn't be reluctant to disclose it either.

But, that's not going to happen any time soon.

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 11, 2009, 11:11:05 PM
I wasn't saying if the world wasn't hostile anyone would want to be out, only that the issue of stealth might lose it's importance. 

Your other comment about not wanting to be a second class citizen is just what I was referring to as one reason why stealth is so important to many of us.

In that imaginary world where being trans is about as abnormal as having red hair, many, if not all, of us wouldn't feel the need to be stealth.  And if being trans was the same as being beautiful in the eyes of society I'd think we'd bask in our good fortune.

Read about the Berdache and two spirit and imagine that being the case today.  Why would any of us want to be "just" a man or "just" a woman when we could be highly revered and respected simply because we are trans?  I'll take that world over being stealth any day.

Julie

I disagree... i think it would take more than that to make it a non issue....
The point is, trans isnt, and never will be 'like having red hair'. As long as its called trans, its different, and eternally will be trans. Hey, trans might become a m/f/t thing... or it may just be a second category of male and female 'transman and transwoman' hey 4 sexes! Frankly, untill its 'man' and 'woman' it will be an issue....

As for being reveared.... I'd rather live a normal life, and be respected, loved, apreciated and liked for things I do... not how im born. Even if being  trans got me a million pounds, I suspect I'd still rather just live a normal boring life.
I live a happy life, i have friends that apreciate me for who I am... my personality, my actions, my interests. I have a man I love very much, and that loves me in return, I work hard at university, I'll suceed once I graduate, I play sports, music, I write, I'm me. I wouldn't want to be anyone else, seen for anything else in the world.... How the world sees me is just right... no bulls**t, no false ephilettes.... Just a girl making her way through life. Being considered 'special' for being trans to me, would be as bad as being considered 'weird'.... its all 'different' at the end of the day.... them and us syndrome.
Perhaps one day others too will find tranquility in life itself, without the need to grasp at titles to make themselves feel like they mean something. Write your own story... Don't just copy paste chapters from the books of others.

Totally agree TNB.

Assuming some future utopian society is completely o.k. with us....positive things such acceptance, tolerance, being special, looked up to, thought of as courageous, respected or admired for being Trans is a nightmare scenario for me (over the long term of my life). I'd rather that there be no need for those things in the first place, because noone ever thinks to question such things, because I've stopped questioning these things as well, I'm just me.

Out vs. stealth? It's the difference between talking about something and doing it IMO. But then again I think stealth is another kind of transition, what lies beyond stealth is what I'm after. After getting cut, it's nice when the skin scabs because we know it's starting to heal, but it's better to lose the scab. I'm not going to put it in a picture frame, or announce it over loudspeakers. Those who are out and can do the social/political/legal etc...work that we need do a great service to us though so I'm glad for those that can do those things.

to each their own nice grenade bella
jessica

I think I see your viewpoint, NB.  That is what you want and need.  I wish you every success.  I don't think that is what I want, or if I do ultimately want it I won't find out until it is close to achievable for me.  (It isn't achievable for me now and may never be.  Since I don't allow myself to dwell on the unattainable, I am happy without it.)

I would take a small issue with this, though:

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 11, 2009, 10:32:48 PM
I don't think a contentious issue is worth laughing at....

And I certainly don't think the life choice of some is worth laughing at either.

I certainly won't laugh at your life choice.  But I certainly laugh at my own.

If I couldn't laugh at the ridiculousness of some of the situations that transition has forced me into, I don't know that I would make it.  I'm having a lot of fun with transition and enjoying it most of the time.  It is the most complicated, difficult, and fun thing I've ever done. 

Perhaps it was because I was born in a different time or perhaps it is my nature, but it does seem very odd to me that I should be a woman who suffered through much of her life in a male body. :laugh:  The very idea is a bit ridiculous (or Kafkaesque – your choice).

But each of us has a different take on this, and I find the discussions very valuable to learn how others see these things.  We just need the freedom to live in a way that suits our natures.

- Kate

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 11, 2009, 11:11:05 PM
I wasn't saying if the world wasn't hostile anyone would want to be out, only that the issue of stealth might lose it's importance. 

Your other comment about not wanting to be a second class citizen is just what I was referring to as one reason why stealth is so important to many of us.

In that imaginary world where being trans is about as abnormal as having red hair, many, if not all, of us wouldn't feel the need to be stealth.  And if being trans was the same as being beautiful in the eyes of society I'd think we'd bask in our good fortune.

Read about the Berdache and two spirit and imagine that being the case today.  Why would any of us want to be "just" a man or "just" a woman when we could be highly revered and respected simply because we are trans?  I'll take that world over being stealth any day.

Julie

I certainly agree Julie.

I find it very amusing that folks get their draws in a knot over such a thing.  Lets face it my definition of stealth is going to be different from others, as would be my definition of full time, SRS, RLT, TS, TG, and lord knows that's just in this community, I haven't touched on things outside of this site.  There are far more important things in life to be concerned with.

The important issue is that I'm happy with me and my life.  I live as stealthy as I can BUT, my family knows about me, as does my employer, as do my co-workers, as do all the medical professionals who need to deal with me.  My fiance?  Well of course he knows.  I'm on "File" with someone somewhere - That deserted Island sure looks tempting :)

-={LR}=-

I think, honestly, with so many definitions, whats the point in having terms like stealth, rle, full time, srs, ffs, 'out' etc.... there's no point, lets just call transition 'GARMANGOOKIEWOO' Which means in swahilli 'banana'. I feel it is a more accurate term for a collective of apparently liquid definitions. *facepalm*

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 12, 2009, 07:04:29 PM
I think, honestly, with so many definitions, whats the point in having terms like stealth, rle, full time, srs, ffs, 'out' etc.... there's no point, lets just call transition 'GARMANGOOKIEWOO' Which means in swahilli 'banana'. I feel it is a more accurate term for a collective of apparently liquid definitions. *facepalm*

I have a better idea. Why don't we just let people live their lives and use whatever term they see fit and not worry about it? That seems like the better option to me.

One half of the internet: 'THESE ARE THE DEFINTIIONS WE NEED DEFINITIONS!

Another half of the itnernet: ' Definitions are wrong! lets all live our lives and let people belive what the hell they want to belive by calling it something else to make them feel better!'

Another half of the internet (Yes, it's this irational): Badger.



I'm afraid only one of those can win... i'm going for door number 3

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 12, 2009, 07:42:00 PM
One half of the internet: 'THESE ARE THE DEFINTIIONS WE NEED DEFINITIONS!

Another half of the itnernet: ' Definitions are wrong! lets all live our lives and let people belive what the hell they want to belive by calling it something else to make them feel better!'

Another half of the internet (Yes, it's this irational): Badger.



I'm afraid only one of those can win... i'm going for door number 3

There's three 1/2's now? 

Its the online trans community... there is no such thing as sense.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 12, 2009, 08:27:40 PM
Its the online trans community... there is no such thing as sense.

I could not agree more, but I cannot rest untill I know more about these three 1/2's! Could you please expand on this idea of the three 1/2's?

You're reading a topic on one such subject that uses the three halves concept :)

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 12, 2009, 08:49:51 PM
You're reading a topic on one such subject that uses the three halves concept :)

I must appologize for my slowness on this subjuct. Could you clearify on this more so?

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 12, 2009, 07:42:00 PM
One half of the internet: 'THESE ARE THE DEFINTIIONS WE NEED DEFINITIONS!

Another half of the itnernet: ' Definitions are wrong! lets all live our lives and let people belive what the hell they want to belive by calling it something else to make them feel better!'

Another half of the internet (Yes, it's this irational): Badger.



I'm afraid only one of those can win... i'm going for door number 3

Well, I agree with everything up to the last part. Of course they can all be valid. Words have definitions that are somewhat imperfectly matched with meanings. That's true of every word in every dictionary of human language everywhere. Just consider the word "green." And "badger" describes the Internet in its entirety. Either that, or "narwhal bacon."

Somebody said "Kafka". I wonder if there is a "Cockroach roadmap" and how many years of counseling one needs to accept becomming a cockroach?  I think the family took it very well

Funny, I've heard the badger reference before but never really got it until now. It's all about context I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyixC9NsLI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyixC9NsLI#)

Quote from: xsocialworker on November 13, 2009, 08:16:06 PM
Somebody said "Kafka". I wonder if there is a "Cockroach roadmap" and how many years of counseling one needs to accept becomming a cockroach?  I think the family took it very well

Now there's "Kafka" in addition to the secret stealth, & the three 1/2's? I understand if you're restricted on how much you can say, but I'm very interested in learning more about this "Kafka". 

My reference to badger isnt to the internet meme.... It's another thing that happened at a Sports Club I'm a member of... Dont ask... seriously.

Well, if you're outing yourself on a transgender forum by showing your piccie all over the place where the whole world can see it, guess what, sorry to burst your bubbles but you aren't stealth.  & don't give me "people don't go to transgender sites".  Baloney! the internet is a place where everybody goes to.  Peeps study, work, nose around, do all kinds of things on the internet.  If you don't care, then that's ok, but If you wanna be stealth, the last thing you want is your piccie all over a transgender site.  Pure & simple.

Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 13, 2009, 09:59:03 PM
Now there's "Kafka" in addition to the secret stealth, & the three 1/2's? I understand if you're restricted on how much you can say, but I'm very interested in learning more about this "Kafka".

[pedantry]
Franz Kafka, 1883-1924, a German-speaking Jew who lived in Prague.  He had an odd view of humanity and wrote chilling stories of transformation (Metamorphosis) and blind bureaucratic oppression (The Trial).  His style was such that it is almost impossible to get the complex meanings in a translation, so for full impact it helps to be able to read German (which I can no longer do).
[/pedantry]

- Kate

I don't mean to be rude but stealth has got to do a lot with how people perceive you.  Unfortunately I see a lot of people on TG sites that claim to be stealth but their photos don't show that.  Basically if other people don't perceive you as female, if other people don't see a woman when they see you, if other people can read you or clock you as trans, you can't be stealth no matter how you dress or whether you're post-op or live as a woman.  Stealth has got to do a lot with passing (I know we don't like this word but it's what's used in the community), if you don't pass, you cant be stealth.

Quote from: Valentina on November 14, 2009, 08:18:14 AM
I don't mean to be rude but stealth has got to do a lot with how people perceive you.  Unfortunately I see a lot of people on TG sites that claim to be stealth but their photos don't show that.  Basically if other people don't perceive you as female, if other people don't see a woman when they see you, if other people can read you or clock you as trans, you can't be stealth no matter how you dress or whether you're post-op or live as a woman.  Stealth has got to do a lot with passing (I know we don't like this word but it's what's used in the community), if you don't pass, you cant be stealth.

Unfortunitely that is the bottom line and straight to the point.

Quote from: Valentina on November 14, 2009, 08:18:14 AM
I don't mean to be rude but stealth has got to do a lot with how people perceive you.  Unfortunately I see a lot of people on TG sites that claim to be stealth but their photos don't show that.  Basically if other people don't perceive you as female, if other people don't see a woman when they see you, if other people can read you or clock you as trans, you can't be stealth no matter how you dress or whether you're post-op or live as a woman.  Stealth has got to do a lot with passing (I know we don't like this word but it's what's used in the community), if you don't pass, you cant be stealth.

I always thought this was a given?

Quote from: Pia on November 14, 2009, 07:18:12 AM
Well, if you're outing yourself on a transgender forum by showing your piccie all over the place where the whole world can see it, guess what, sorry to burst your bubbles but you aren't stealth.  & don't give me "people don't go to transgender sites".  Baloney! the internet is a place where everybody goes to.  Peeps study, work, nose around, do all kinds of things on the internet.  If you don't care, then that's ok, but If you wanna be stealth, the last thing you want is your piccie all over a transgender site.  Pure & simple.

Well, that all depends on the crowd you run with.  I've had my pic on at least half a dozen TG forums since 2004 and have been pretty active.  When I came out a year ago the people in "my world" were shocked.  Some told me they went home and downed a bottle of vodka after hearing it. 

But I lived in a world clueless about things TG.  It wasn't even on their radar.  And to stick your head into a TG forum, even if just out of curiosity?  NO WAY!!!  The ten foot pole rule was heavily applied.

"There are eight million stories in the Naked City."

Julie

Quote from: Pia on November 14, 2009, 07:18:12 AM
Well, if you're outing yourself on a transgender forum by showing your piccie all over the place where the whole world can see it, guess what, sorry to burst your bubbles but you aren't stealth.  & don't give me "people don't go to transgender sites".  Baloney! the internet is a place where everybody goes to.  Peeps study, work, nose around, do all kinds of things on the internet.  If you don't care, then that's ok, but If you wanna be stealth, the last thing you want is your piccie all over a transgender site.  Pure & simple.

And this gets back to the definition of stealth.  If stealth means actively hiding your past and your status, then this is true.  If it means not being open, then this is not necessarily true. 

Is stealth like "unique" in that it either is or isn't, or is it like that abomination "kinda unique" in that there is a sliding scale?  Can you be "more or less stealth"?  (I think Bella calls this "Stealthy", a term I would like to see more widely used. :))

- Kate

Quote from: Becca on November 13, 2009, 08:25:42 PM
Funny, I've heard the badger reference before but never really got it until now. It's all about context I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyixC9NsLI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyixC9NsLI#)

I can't get utube. Is this the pyro-pedo-necro-beastaphilia?

It's dancing cartoon badgers with mushrooms and the occasional snake. I thought I had finally figured out what the heck it
means but she said she wasn't referring to this particular analogy so now I'm lost again.

I am curious about the badger in the sports club story though, it's cruel to hint at such a story and not dish!

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 14, 2009, 10:05:58 AM
I always thought this was a given?

I thought so too but I dunno anymore.  I participate in many TG sites, most of them European & some American.  I don't mean to offend anybody but I see a lot of people posting their photos on TG sites whilst claiming to be stealth when in reality they don't look anything close to a woman.  Some even claim to have had facial surgery with prominent FFS surgeons but what I see is a man's face still.  I thought it was me at first, that I was being unfair or maybe too critical, so I asked my mum & friends to look at the photos & they agreed with me.  They all said that those people look trans but not female & if they were walking on the streets, they'd be clocked & read in a millisecond.

Stealth doesn't involve passing only.  It's got to do with being able to be a woman in every situation too.  I know some older women in my support group that pass perfectly because they've had FFS, but they often complain of being outed instantly because they can't establish a conversation with other females.  Too many years of socialization under the wrong gender role is the problem.  They were all married as males, had supermasculine jobs & don't know how to unravel as women.  They don't have a frame of reference as females because unfortunately that's what happens when somebody transitions at an older age.  Not even FFS can undo that.  Don't want to bring the age issue again & I know that some people don't want to hear it but some things need to be said, much more so when stealth is the subject of discussion.

Quote from: Valentina on November 14, 2009, 12:08:16 PMThey don't have a frame of reference as females because unfortunately that's what happens when somebody transitions at an older age.

It isn't about age dear. I requires a willingness, an anxiousness to let go of the old mind-set, to recognize you are "starting over", and to be willing to start from ZERO. The more a person tries to hang on to the less they will "transition".

I agree.  I don't think I look particularly feminine, but I have found that as I relax and un-learn being male and just let the woman I should have been come out that I am accepted more and more as a woman.  It's a process of removing the layers of socialization built up over the years. 

I have the advantage of having never been very good at being a man.  Also to my advantage is that I always liked women and have had many women friends (just friends).  Such relationships were often a bit awkward when I was male-bodied but now are relaxed and easy and wonderful.

(I remember posting some comments about the importance of action, behavior, mannerisms, and attitude and being soundly criticized for my naïveté.)

I have no chance of being stealth, but I am becoming seen by most people - new people and people I've known for years - as a woman.  And at my age that's all I can ask for.

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on November 14, 2009, 08:11:38 AM
[pedantry]
Franz Kafka, 1883-1924, a German-speaking Jew who lived in Prague.  He had an odd view of humanity and wrote chilling stories of transformation (Metamorphosis) and blind bureaucratic oppression (The Trial).  His style was such that it is almost impossible to get the complex meanings in a translation, so for full impact it helps to be able to read German (which I can no longer do).
[/pedantry]

- Kate

Some one here mentioned that their SO was Austrian. Do they speak German? I know they was in cahootz until the Ruskies came in & put the kibosh on em' & threw that wall up. Maybe this Austrian can decipher this ancient Germanian text & shed some light on this "Kafka"?

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Post Merge: November 14, 2009, 11:54:28 PM

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Quote from: Pia on November 14, 2009, 07:18:12 AM
Well, if you're outing yourself on a transgender forum by showing your piccie all over the place where the whole world can see it, guess what, sorry to burst your bubbles but you aren't stealth.  & don't give me "people don't go to transgender sites".  Baloney! the internet is a place where everybody goes to.  Peeps study, work, nose around, do all kinds of things on the internet.  If you don't care, then that's ok, but If you wanna be stealth, the last thing you want is your piccie all over a transgender site.  Pure & simple.

Where are these pictures of the secret stealth? Please, I must see these!

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Post Merge: November 14, 2009, 10:02:36 PM

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Quote from: Valentina on November 14, 2009, 08:18:14 AM
I don't mean to be rude but stealth has got to do a lot with how people perceive you.  Unfortunately I see a lot of people on TG sites that claim to be stealth but their photos don't show that.  Basically if other people don't perceive you as female, if other people don't see a woman when they see you, if other people can read you or clock you as trans, you can't be stealth no matter how you dress or whether you're post-op or live as a woman.  Stealth has got to do a lot with passing (I know we don't like this word but it's what's used in the community), if you don't pass, you cant be stealth.

You've seen these pictures of the secret stealth as well? Why can I not find these?

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Post Merge: November 14, 2009, 08:10:09 PM

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Quote from: Northern Jane on November 14, 2009, 01:28:47 PM
It isn't about age dear. I requires a willingness, an anxiousness to let go of the old mind-set, to recognize you are "starting over", and to be willing to start from ZERO. The more a person tries to hang on to the less they will "transition".

So age does not matter with the sectret stealth. This is very good as I am almost forty!

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Post Merge: November 14, 2009, 06:18:06 PM

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Quote from: Laura91 on November 14, 2009, 02:34:34 PM
Exactly!! and even if someone found out about me via a trans forum then...meh...so what?? I am who I am and I'm not ashamed of that at all. Sure, I'm not going to announce that I am trans in a bar full of close minded morons but I'm not going to be ashamed of who I am anymore.

I will go & be not ashamed with you to this bar, even if I am old & do not have the secret stealth!

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Post Merge: November 14, 2009, 04:32:21 PM

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Quote from: Becca on November 14, 2009, 11:12:18 AM
It's dancing cartoon badgers with mushrooms and the occasional snake. I thought I had finally figured out what the heck it
means but she said she wasn't referring to this particular analogy so now I'm lost again.

I am curious about the badger in the sports club story though, it's cruel to hint at such a story and not dish!

These old badgers that dance, do they have the secret stealth? Please tell me about these old badgers that dance, I must know!

OMG Laura go to the bar with her!

SHHHH! s e c r e t Stealth!

Look, Knock it the hell off with mocking stealth. It's a choice that we make. and our right, just as much as yours to be out. So please refrain from taking the piss. It's not funny.

There would be outrage if 'stealth' defined people began to mock out people.... 'lol look at those silly people parading around being weirdos, they must love the attention...' See where im going with this?

Can't we all respect eachother's choice? It's a way of life. And our choice, and our choice alone. NOBODY has the right to tell anyone how to live, or mock the way they live.

I WRONGLY assumed that in a trans forum, that people would have copped the hell on and realised the hypocracy behind thier words.

I think that about most of the transitioners I know as friends or clients had no idea if stealth would be possible when they first started. Most desired to be stealth, but it can be a very distant goal.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 15, 2009, 06:48:11 AMLook, Knock it the hell off with mocking stealth. It's a choice that we make. and our right, just as much as yours to be out. So please refrain from taking the piss. It's not funny.

Stealth is a word that has different meanings to different people.  Before jumping to conclusions about someone mocking, ask what they mean.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 15, 2009, 06:48:11 AMThere would be outrage if 'stealth' defined people began to mock out people.... 'lol look at those silly people parading around being weirdos, they must love the attention...' See where im going with this?

No one is saying, "Look at those silly stealth people, thinking they are fooling the world."  No one is mocking anyone who chooses stealth.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 15, 2009, 06:48:11 AMCan't we all respect eachother's choice? It's a way of life. And our choice, and our choice alone. NOBODY has the right to tell anyone how to live, or mock the way they live.

This subject has been beaten to death and it's clear there is no one definition, no one meaning.  While for you it may be deadly serious, for others it's practically meaningless.  That's how the world works.  We can all get along only if we all are accepting of each others differences.

Julie

If it means so little, why do you all still post about it?

And the number of times stealth is refered to as 'in the closet/sneaky / deceptive/ 'secret stealth' I'm sick and tired of it being subtly knocked at.

A year and a half ago I finally decided I would fully discover the truth about what I was going through (MTF). I started going to another transgender forum and participated there and by doing so gained knowledge and was able to post and was a happy camper-until my wife found out about it and pitched a fit (to say the least). I then removed all posts I had made and attempted to erase all indicators that I had ever been there. To my reckoning 'Stealth' means to be in a place or situation without drawing any attention to oneself at all. This is what I tried to do when my wife found out about my GID before I was ready. So I attempted to simply blend in with the environment and not draw any attention to myself-so as to prepare in my own way how to take the next steps and do this in an orderly & rational fashion. Was it the best thing I could have done -YES. Did I gain anything in this process-YES. Was I successful in my attempt to hide or blend in with my surroundings-YES!!! Will everyone here think as me that I was stealth-NO and I am not worried if they do or not.
Arguing about this helps nobody and is offensive to some of us who are new here and trying to find a family wherein we belong. Let's try to find common ground where we can all agree on something/anything and build positive relationships with one another.

My 2 cents worth,
Randi ;)

I really don't think the OP meant to be insulting, I think it's just really dry humor and an attempt to be self-deprecating. This thing has kind of taken on a life of it's own though.

QuoteIf it means so little, why do you all still post about it

To me it means the world, if it wasn't possible honestly I'm not sure which direction the transition/death pendulum would have swung...and the jury's not all back yet. Believe it or not threads like this are helpful to me, because there are really tough decisions to make and these passionate discussions make great points on all three halves (badger!).

Quotestealth is refered to as 'in the closet/sneaky / deceptive

This seems exactly opposite. It seems to me that living full time and completely indistinguishable as the women we are would be so far out of the closet that we would be in the backyard. I have a scar on my belly from having stuff removed and since it doesn't protrude out from my tops and call attention to itself, I don't usually hike my top up and show it to people. If it was disfiguring, yeah everyone would know I had belly surgery and there would be no point in trying to have a normal, belly-drama free life, but since it isn't disfiguring I don't feel like I am betraying other belly surgery survivors by not talking about it all the time and showing off the scar. I dunno, that might be a stupid analogy, I just really don't feel like Bella intended to be insulting.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 15, 2009, 06:48:11 AM
Look, Knock it the hell off with mocking stealth. It's a choice that we make. and our right, just as much as yours to be out. So please refrain from taking the piss. It's not funny.

There would be outrage if 'stealth' defined people began to mock out people.... 'lol look at those silly people parading around being weirdos, they must love the attention...' See where im going with this?

Can't we all respect eachother's choice? It's a way of life. And our choice, and our choice alone. NOBODY has the right to tell anyone how to live, or mock the way they live.

I WRONGLY assumed that in a trans forum, that people would have copped the hell on and realised the hypocracy behind thier words.

Frankly, I never expect to be stealth. But I hope I am not one of the people you are talking about. I think it's pretty sad when people denigrate those who have the chance and choose to be stealth. And I appreciate that some of them, like you, participate in trans communities through the anonymity of the Internet. There is certainly tension between people who are stealth and those who aren't, just as there is tension among factions within any minority community, and it's sad. We're all better off because of the diversity of our experiences in transition (and before and after and around).

Someone said that passing was a prerequisite to stealth, and I agree -- but there seems to be confusion about the term. Some people talk about being stealth to mean being trans but hiding it before transitioning. That's not stealth -- that's called "being in the closet." Not that there's anything wrong with it; it's just a different thing. There might be some ambiguity in what "steath" means, but it has traditionally applied only to people who have transitioned. Despite a few similarities between the two experiences, it's not just stretching the meaning, but completely changing it to use it to mean being in the closet.

I'd also like to respond to Jane's statement, "The more a person tries to hang on to the less they will 'transition'." I think that doesn't really descibe the experience of people such as Andrea James who maintain a career and family ties through transition and live comfortably in the proper gender role afterwards without being stealth. Perhaps it depends on what you mean by "hanging on," but I am happy to "hang on" to the loving family and friends that I have made before I began my transition, as long as they can see me and relate to me as their daughter, sister, aunt, cousine, copine, amie, girl friend, etc., even if it takes some time to get comfortable with that new relationship.

Maybe I just sang too many girl scout songs when I was little. "One is silver and the other gold."

Who's been going around calling me "chin strap lady"?

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 15, 2009, 01:53:08 PM
If it means so little, why do you all still post about it?

And the number of times stealth is refered to as 'in the closet/sneaky / deceptive/ 'secret stealth' I'm sick and tired of it being subtly knocked at.

It's not deceptive at all . Being stealth is not sneaky either. It's just that it is an impossibility for many in the trans-community for multiple reasons.

My name is Isabella, NOT "chin strap lady", so knock it off!

Quote from: Becca on November 13, 2009, 08:25:42 PM
Funny, I've heard the badger reference before but never really got it until now. It's all about context I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyixC9NsLI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyixC9NsLI#)

[hijack] This post right here made my day.

Interesting note, the game Everquest 2 actually made a raid boss based off this video. [/hijack]

Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 15, 2009, 09:25:15 PM
My name is Isabella, NOT "chin strap lady", so knock it off!

Uh, are you ok?

Quote from: xsocialworker on November 15, 2009, 08:21:17 PM
It's not deceptive at all . Being stealth is not sneaky either. It's just that it is an impossibility for many in the trans-community for multiple reasons.

Not all of us *want* to be stealth even if it possible for us. So please don't imply that it is not possible for non-stealth folks. I personally do not believe in keeping secrets from important people in my life.

Quote from: lexshue on November 16, 2009, 06:13:24 AM
Not all of us *want* to be stealth even if it possible for us. So please don't imply that it is not possible for non-stealth folks. I personally do not believe in keeping secrets from important people in my life.

Apart from relatives who know, I try to impliment it. I do get tired of 'Stelth bashing'. and I admire anyone who is able to do sucessfully as a female.

Again, this is something that we each do in our own way.  Some people can't manage stealth for any number of reasons, some of which have nothing to do with how "passable" they are.  Some who could do stealth don't want to for any number of reasons.  Statements that imply that stealth people are sneaky or non-stealth people somehow aren't real women or men are not helpful to the general discourse.

Stealth is not better or worse than non-stealth.  It is a personal choice given the needs and situation of the individual.  For some it is a vital decision that is very serious; for others it is something they can have fun with. 

Those who have fun with their transition and the various concepts inherent in transitioning and being transsexual are (usually) not making fun of those who find the process deadly serious.  They're just having fun with their peculiar lives.

I for one usually find a little levity makes the bitter pills easier to swallow.  But that's just me. ::)

- Kate

Every year there are people born in America who wish they were born in France.  Some move to France early because their parents move there or they go there with a relative to live.  They learn the language and integrate successfully into the French culture and way of life.  By the time they are in their 20's no one knows they were born in America.

But there are also those Americans who, for varying reasons, don't get to move to France until later in life.  They have a hard time mastering the language and culture but they are happy they at least are now living in France.

And there are some who just have a natural gift for being French.  It's nothing they did, they were just born with it.

The French don't like Americans and don't want them living there.  So if they sense or know someone was born in America, they are immediately prejudiced against them and discriminate against them.  So all American born people know they must do their best to move about imperceptibly if they want to avoid prejudice and discrimination.

When the American born people get together they have a commonality and like to tell their stories.  The ones who came over very early don't understand the plight of the ones who came over late or what it was like living in the wrong country for so long.  The ones who came over late wish they could have come over early.  And the ones who have that natural ability to integrate just feel lucky.

For the most part they all get along until an early arriver says she doesn't feel comfortable with a late arriver because they might "out" them.  A late arriver is upset with the early arriver for not being more compassionate.  The natural understands both sides.  So little by little the American born people begin to lose their bond and the group splinters.

Julie

Quote from: lexshue on November 16, 2009, 06:13:24 AM
Not all of us *want* to be stealth even if it possible for us. So please don't imply that it is not possible for non-stealth folks. I personally do not believe in keeping secrets from important people in my life.

There is no secret keeping.

I have YET to be asked by friends 'what was your asigned sex at birth?' or 'what sex were you raised?'
I am a girl, they know a girl.... they know everything there is to know about ME, thier friend. The person they met, and have known. All that matters is shes real, and honest, and nothing they know has been a lie.  This is often one of the main angles that the 'non stealth' groups weild. 'Decipt' 'lies' and 'secrets'...

Why do you feel so guilty about being seen as the gender you profess to be? It seems a lot here, NOT all people that are out by a long way, but a lot none the less, are out, because for some reason or another, they 'prefer' to be seen as a transsexual, being seen as different is important to them. And being 'just another woman' doesnt accomplish the goal of being a somebody they seak without a good amount of effort on thier part.

Of course, there are those that are out, because they want to, but are doing it for noble reasons, I aplaud them. I couldn't do that. I'm not strong enough to stand in your shoes.

Stealth transpeople, do so for thier own reasons, its not shame, its not cowardace, but its simply a choice we don't often consiously make.... I know that I didn't wake up one day and decide.... " Hey, you know what? today im going to go stealth!" It was a series of interconnected events, and a serious dose of 'living my life' Something relatively unavoidable at university, that culminated in me dropping off the trans radar, and not really caring to find the ladder back on.

So For me, atleast, it's not a case of 'not wanting to be associated with them', and those that choose that route, do so under a misguided notion of 'escaping trans'. That's impossible to date.

Nobody can ever change time, we were all born, even dying won't change that. Yes, I'm Trans, but i practice a forgotten art within the trans community.... I live. Non trans people really don't think about thier sex or gender very often, and when you actually try that, life begins to mellow out, and become normal, and (now the key part) after several years living as a girl, Its normal, and without questioning gender every 5 minutes, its serene.... so calm, relaxed, and finally little things seem big, what im going to wear that day, or what such and such said mean the world to me.... I've managed to stop analysing gender, something we do too much of, and frankly, It's a breath of fresh air, I suggest we all try it, out, or stealth, it makes a huge difference to your state of mind.

Julie: I love that analogy :) Although I suspect there's more to the 'old mover/young mover' divide than outlined there, a 'one side or the other' view.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 16, 2009, 08:35:45 AM
I have YET to be asked by friends 'what was your asigned sex at birth?' or 'what sex were you raised?'

More typical questions for me are:
* What kind of birth control do you use? -> Why are you sterile?
* Do you take any medication? -> Why do take estrogen?
* Why do you need to dilate?
etc

Of course most people are not so close to ask those kind of things. But with close friends it tends to come up as time passes.

Quote from: lexshue on November 16, 2009, 09:17:15 AM
More typical questions for me are:
* What kind of birth control do you use? -> Why are you sterile?
* Do you take any medication? -> Why do take estrogen?
* Why do you need to dilate?
etc

Of course most people are not so close to ask those kind of things. But with close friends it tends to come up as time passes.

I get asked some of those questions as well and other women talk to me personally about their women's problems.

Quote from: lexshue on November 16, 2009, 09:17:15 AM
More typical questions for me are:
* What kind of birth control do you use? -> Why are you sterile?
* Do you take any medication? -> Why do take estrogen?
* Why do you need to dilate?
etc

Of course most people are not so close to ask those kind of things. But with close friends it tends to come up as time passes.

I don't use birth control... Not every woman does. (I mean i use condoms rather than the pill as some friends do who dont get on with it)
My best friend knows i take estrogen, She asked why i had it in my room once, and I explained that I had no ovaries... solved both of those, and is entirely true. She thinks no less of me.
Dilate? Jebus,. if you're doing that infront of friends... erm... Just say its a dildo... loads of girls have them, we all get dry patches :D

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 16, 2009, 10:32:31 AM
My best friend knows i take estrogen, She asked why i had it in my room once, and I explained that I had no ovaries... solved both of those, and is entirely true. She thinks no less of me.

In liberal young circles most women who don't have ovaries *are* trans and people do know that. Most of my social circles seem to have 1-2% of trans people, so everyone is aware that trans inviduals exist.

No ovaries -> probably trans (in certain crowds).

Quote
Dilate? Jebus,. if you're doing that infront of friends... erm... Just say its a dildo... loads of girls have them, we all get dry patches :D

Maybe we are weird when we compare medicine cabinets, toys etc.

This came up with trekking two weeks and living together in a shared tent with very little privacy.

My greatest fear about death is that hell will be a small room where everyone inside does nothing but argue about stealth over and over again, until the rapture.

But seriously, the anti stealth sentiment - if you believe it exists - is probably just an inevitable product of how the trans community builds itself. Basically, you have two kinds of people who come into it. (This assumes everyone "enters" at the point they realize they are trans.) The first are the ones who, for whatever reason, won't be stealth at the end of transition. The second are the ones who will, eventually, manage it. Both basically start the same and have a lot in common. At this point, you don't have any conflict.

But, when you get to the point that both hypothetical types of people reach the end of transition, it changes. The people who are not stealth still feel a strong connection to their, err, "trans-ness". Whatever you wanna call it. So, they still think about it, still feel like talking about it, etc. So they remain on the forums. On the other hand, the people who go stealth have the opposite effect. The culture, types of conversations, and whatever, get boring, because it doesn't really connect to anything that happens in the "Real world" anymore. So, eventually, they bail out of boredom or some arguement and don't feel a complusion to return.

Thus, in the long run, you have a community that has a strong built up amount of out people, but only a passing in and out group of stealthers. Which leads to the overall melting pot not really "Getting" them. Which leads to topics like this, which just serves to bring out further the sense of dissonance stealth people get, which sometimes makes them hostile and appear elitist, if they don't just leave even faster.

That would be my theory on the whole deal, anyway. If trans support sites would stop breaking into debates over the same topic over and over and focused on helping people transitioning instead, both groups would probably stick around for longer.

Quote from: Eamber on November 16, 2009, 01:20:49 PM
My greatest fear about death is that hell will be a small room where everyone inside does nothing but argue about stealth over and over again, until the rapture.

But seriously, the anti stealth sentiment - if you believe it exists - is probably just an inevitable product of how the trans community builds itself. Basically, you have two kinds of people who come into it. (This assumes everyone "enters" at the point they realize they are trans.) The first are the ones who, for whatever reason, won't be stealth at the end of transition. The second are the ones who will, eventually, manage it. Both basically start the same and have a lot in common. At this point, you don't have any conflict.

But, when you get to the point that both hypothetical types of people reach the end of transition, it changes. The people who are not stealth still feel a strong connection to their, err, "trans-ness". Whatever you wanna call it. So, they still think about it, still feel like talking about it, etc. So they remain on the forums. On the other hand, the people who go stealth have the opposite effect. The culture, types of conversations, and whatever, get boring, because it doesn't really connect to anything that happens in the "Real world" anymore. So, eventually, they bail out of boredom or some arguement and don't feel a complusion to return.

Thus, in the long run, you have a community that has a strong built up amount of out people, but only a passing in and out group of stealthers. Which leads to the overall melting pot not really "Getting" them. Which leads to topics like this, which just serves to bring out further the sense of dissonance stealth people get, which sometimes makes them hostile and appear elitist, if they don't just leave even faster.

That would be my theory on the whole deal, anyway. If trans support sites would stop breaking into debates over the same topic over and over and focused on helping people transitioning instead, both groups would probably stick around for longer.

There is the secret stealth in this place after death as well? I must pray now.

Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 16, 2009, 02:13:57 PM
There is the secret stealth in this place after death as well? I must pray now.

She was so stealthy that when she got to the pearly gate St Peter checked his list and said "Who the hell are you?"

:D

-={LR}=-

Quote from: lexshue on November 16, 2009, 11:22:49 AM
In liberal young circles most women who don't have ovaries *are* trans and people do know that. Most of my social circles seem to have 1-2% of trans people, so everyone is aware that trans inviduals exist.

No ovaries -> probably trans (in certain crowds).

Maybe we are weird when we compare medicine cabinets, toys etc.

This came up with trekking two weeks and living together in a shared tent with very little privacy.

No ovaries here... follows a logicical theory trail to... uh, no ovaries. Not trans really. 'why don't you have ovaries?' 'I was born without them....' 'oh' and she and the others it came up to, assume i was born with a genetic defect, and sans that.... Hrt is fairly common here, and one of my friends did mention she knew another girl that was born without a uterus, but with ovaries as a 'ah yeah xyz'  These things happen, and It's a pretty far stretch of the imagination to believe I'm trans because of that... heck, when i DID last tell someone I was trans, they turned around and asked how long i'd felt i was male.... Your young liberal circles must be fairly.... diverse, There are no transsexuals here that I know of, nor do they move in the circles I do if they do, and I'm fairly socially active. redefine 'most' and 'are' and think logically from the pov of someone that doesnt interact with trans people what seems like a LOT in your case.

Quote from: Ladyrider on November 16, 2009, 02:55:55 PM
She was so stealthy that when she got to the pearly gate St Peter checked his list and said "Who the hell are you?"

:D

-={LR}=-

Please, I ask you nicely, do not make funny about the secret stealth.

At my age, most GG's have no ovaries and most likely on HRT, but maybe not both depending on the reason there are no ovaries. If a woman my age askes me about periods and I say I don't have them, nothing further is said because nobody my age should be having them. Getting old is kewl. At my age, you are just an older woman and nobody really looks at you that close and if you need to disclose your medical history (like before getting a new hip),nobody even seems at the least fazed.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 16, 2009, 03:12:53 PMYour young liberal circles must be fairly.... diverse, There are no transsexuals here that I know of, nor do they move in the circles I do if they do, and I'm fairly socially active.

Just as an example of how a not-overly-socially-active person like me in a liberal but not very diverse town might cross paths with a lot of trans people without seeking them out in any way:

I had a colleague for several years whose sister transitioned. Also, one of his best friend's sisters also transitioned a few years ago. Another friend from my department goes to a Unitarian church with a trans guy. A trans woman I'd never met, evidently an old friend of some of my friends, showed up to a barbecue I attended recently. A guy I knew as an undergrad moved to CA is now living in some intermediate gender space. My sister worked as a camp counselor for several summers with a trans guy, before he came out or began his transition. My ex-girlfriend has a good friend from high school who is transitioning, and I see him around from time to time. My ex moved away, and she has a trans friend who is most of the way through her transition.

That's just a very partial list of trans people I'm linked to with no more than two degrees of separation, based on relationships that I had before I came out. If I dug around, I could find many more. Okay, I live in an open, liberal area, but most of these examples, including myself, are here because of completely mundane work or college opportunities or because they were born here. So I don't think we're terribly unrepresentative; it's just that people are more willing to talk about it. But we're not diverse: the overwhelming majority of these people are from white middle-class suburban backgrounds.

Does that seem like a lot? I'm not sure what the denominator would be if I would try to compute a percentage.

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 16, 2009, 08:05:36 AM
Every year there are people born in America who wish they were born in France.  Some move to France early because their parents move there or they go there with a relative to live.  They learn the language and integrate successfully into the French culture and way of life.  By the time they are in their 20's no one knows they were born in America.

But there are also those Americans who, for varying reasons, don't get to move to France until later in life.  They have a hard time mastering the language and culture but they are happy they at least are now living in France.

And there are some who just have a natural gift for being French.  It's nothing they did, they were just born with it.

The French don't like Americans and don't want them living there.  So if they sense or know someone was born in America, they are immediately prejudiced against them and discriminate against them.  So all American born people know they must do their best to move about imperceptibly if they want to avoid prejudice and discrimination.

When the American born people get together they have a commonality and like to tell their stories.  The ones who came over very early don't understand the plight of the ones who came over late or what it was like living in the wrong country for so long.  The ones who came over late wish they could have come over early.  And the ones who have that natural ability to integrate just feel lucky.

For the most part they all get along until an early arriver says she doesn't feel comfortable with a late arriver because they might "out" them.  A late arriver is upset with the early arriver for not being more compassionate.  The natural understands both sides.  So little by little the American born people begin to lose their bond and the group splinters.

Julie

Do they have the secret stealth in this France. Do I have to speak this France to get the secret stealth?

---

Post Merge: November 16, 2009, 05:13:17 PM

---

Quote from: xsocialworker on November 15, 2009, 08:21:17 PM

It's not deceptive at all . Being stealth is not sneaky either. It's just that it is an impossibility for many in the trans-community for multiple reasons.

Please, tell me why some can have the secret stealth and some can not. Who makes this choice of the secret stealth?

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 16, 2009, 08:05:36 AM
Every year there are people born in America who wish they were born in France.  Some move to France early because their parents move there or they go there with a relative to live.  They learn the language and integrate successfully into the French culture and way of life.  By the time they are in their 20's no one knows they were born in America.

But there are also those Americans who, for varying reasons, don't get to move to France until later in life.  They have a hard time mastering the language and culture but they are happy they at least are now living in France.

And there are some who just have a natural gift for being French.  It's nothing they did, they were just born with it.

The French don't like Americans and don't want them living there.  So if they sense or know someone was born in America, they are immediately prejudiced against them and discriminate against them.  So all American born people know they must do their best to move about imperceptibly if they want to avoid prejudice and discrimination.

When the American born people get together they have a commonality and like to tell their stories.  The ones who came over very early don't understand the plight of the ones who came over late or what it was like living in the wrong country for so long.  The ones who came over late wish they could have come over early.  And the ones who have that natural ability to integrate just feel lucky.

For the most part they all get along until an early arriver says she doesn't feel comfortable with a late arriver because they might "out" them.  A late arriver is upset with the early arriver for not being more compassionate.  The natural understands both sides.  So little by little the American born people begin to lose their bond and the group splinters.

Julie

I just moved to Australia and avoided that whole "French/American" thing completely. No one here can even tell I'm American, but not because I'm trying to specifically hide the fact. It's more because I kinda look Australian, though I admit I'm still working on that accent a little.

I always love Julie's little analogies :laugh:

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 15, 2009, 06:48:11 AM
Look, Knock it the hell off with mocking stealth. It's a choice that we make. and our right, just as much as yours to be out. So please refrain from taking the piss. It's not funny.

There would be outrage if 'stealth' defined people began to mock out people.... 'lol look at those silly people parading around being weirdos, they must love the attention...' See where im going with this?

Can't we all respect eachother's choice? It's a way of life. And our choice, and our choice alone. NOBODY has the right to tell anyone how to live, or mock the way they live.

I WRONGLY assumed that in a trans forum, that people would have copped the hell on and realised the hypocracy behind thier words.

I must make issue with you on this. I agree it is very very bad to make funny about the secret stealth and these evil people must be made to pay!

Quote from: Alyssa M. on November 16, 2009, 04:21:13 PM
Just as an example of how a not-overly-socially-active person like me in a liberal but not very diverse town might cross paths with a lot of trans people without seeking them out in any way:

I had a colleague for several years whose sister transitioned. Also, one of his best friend's sisters also transitioned a few years ago. Another friend from my department goes to a Unitarian church with a trans guy. A trans woman I'd never met, evidently an old friend of some of my friends, showed up to a barbecue I attended recently. A guy I knew as an undergrad moved to CA is now living in some intermediate gender space. My sister worked as a camp counselor for several summers with a trans guy, before he came out or began his transition. My ex-girlfriend has a good friend from high school who is transitioning, and I see him around from time to time. My ex moved away, and she has a trans friend who is most of the way through her transition.

That's just a very partial list of trans people I'm linked to with no more than two degrees of separation, based on relationships that I had before I came out. If I dug around, I could find many more. Okay, I live in an open, liberal area, but most of these examples, including myself, are here because of completely mundane work or college opportunities or because they were born here. So I don't think we're terribly unrepresentative; it's just that people are more willing to talk about it. But we're not diverse: the overwhelming majority of these people are from white middle-class suburban backgrounds.

Does that seem like a lot? I'm not sure what the denominator would be if I would try to compute a percentage.

Heh, wow... thats impressive. Honestly thinking about it, I can't really think of any... One of my close friends did toy with f2m for a little while, then hit a later puberty, got a boyfriend, and became happy.... but i honestly can't really name anyone i know that 'could' be trans.... I could guess, but it would be BS really.

Bellaon: Seriously, enough with the 'secret stealth' crap, its not funny, and its begining to border on insulting. your 4chan aproach to posting in this topic is really begining to grate.... This isnt a chew toy for you, so stop taking the piss.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 16, 2009, 07:25:04 PM
Heh, wow... thats impressive. Honestly thinking about it, I can't really think of any... One of my close friends did toy with f2m for a little while, then hit a later puberty, got a boyfriend, and became happy.... but i honestly can't really name anyone i know that 'could' be trans.... I could guess, but it would be BS really.

Bellaon: Seriously, enough with the 'secret stealth' crap, its not funny, and its begining to border on insulting. your 4chan aproach to posting in this topic is really begining to grate.... This isnt a chew toy for you, so stop taking the piss.

I do not understand, you turn back on the secret stealth? Why you say I like chew toy? I know where chew toy has been. What is this 4chan? I talk to CERN, they say no three 1/2's. I tell them they are wrong, I have heard of the three 1/2's & I tell them you go play with subatomic racetrack, and I will teach myself about the three 1/2's!   

Like the planes that the practice was named for, stealth does not mean invisible, it just means it don't show up on radar, but anyone on the ground can look up and say "it's an airplane."  In a similar manner, just because no one calls you on it does not mean they don't know, more like they just don't care - or are bored with the entire deal.

Or, they could just not know.... is it that unfeasable? really? There are transwomen and men, that look like thier true gender, 100% of the time. Yes, significant investigation could turn it up, but who is likely to do that short of govornment agencies?

When i leave university, I'll likely get a background check for employment... What will it show?

Tax records from part time job... female.
Degree... female,
School records... female,
Person.... female.

whats there to look up and see? And I don't mean my skirt :P

People in real life tend to be more perceptive then those at the uni.

Quote from: tekla on November 16, 2009, 08:18:13 PM
Like the planes that the practice was named for, stealth does not mean invisible, it just means it don't show up on radar, but anyone on the ground can look up and say "it's an airplane."  In a similar manner, just because no one calls you on it does not mean they don't know, more like they just don't care - or are bored with the entire deal.

And in one fell swoop our beloved Kat puts it in layman's/woman's terms.   :eusa_clap:

If the radar isn't on, isn't working or you're cloaked, they can't see you.  So you will never know.

Julie

Quote from: tekla on November 16, 2009, 08:18:13 PM
Like the planes that the practice was named for, stealth does not mean invisible, it just means it don't show up on radar, but anyone on the ground can look up and say "it's an airplane."  In a similar manner, just because no one calls you on it does not mean they don't know, more like they just don't care - or are bored with the entire deal.

Knowing and suspecting are different things. Looking at someone you can't really "know" if they're a guy or a girl. Especially when line between guy and girl is so blurry in reality.

What people "know" gender-wise looking at people is in reality nothing more than what they "suspect" based on cue's.

People get mistaken for the wrong gender all the time, trans and cis alike. If being occasionally read as the wrong gender means that people "know". Then there's a lot of cisgender people who apparently other people "know" are really the other gender too.

The problem is so many trans people seem to have this mental perception that they're in some way being deceitful. That someone might learn their dark secret that they're the opposite sex to how they identify.

What is sex anyway? What makes someone a girl or a boy? There's no simple and clear answer to that which doesn't have complicated exceptions.

Quote from: tekla on November 16, 2009, 08:52:30 PM
People in real life tend to be more perceptive then those at the uni.

::)

Putting aside the truely astonishing degree of arrogance in that statement.

Actually I don't really have anything else to say, I was going to make a point out of how you're simply making a point to which you have absolutely nothing tangible to base it on and making up vague generalities in response to any challenge. But it doesn't really matter.  ::)

I don't really feel like arguing with someone who implies I (and anyone else at the university level) are not perceptive and don't live in the real world. You're clearly so dismissive that you wouldn't take anything some stupid uni student like me would have to say seriously anyway.

That is what I tell these people at CERN. You take all day at tiny subatomic racetrack, but you still can not split one tiny piece of fur! They are not so wise. I believe they make funny about the secret stealth. I even tell them, you go find Ms higgs bossum, I make smart with my time, no waist!

You're clearly so dismissive that you wouldn't take anything some stupid uni student like me would have to say seriously anyway.

Yeah, having a doctorate and teaching ten years at the uni taught me very little besides this.

But a university life is set for introspection, not observation.  Find a street hustler for that, they can see in a split second what 10 full professors can often stare at for a year and never get.

Quote from: tekla on November 16, 2009, 08:52:30 PM
People in real life tend to be more perceptive then those at the uni.

This actually made me lol, I've had a few professors whose  ??? never ceases to amaze me. Let's face it honey, there's a few of us awesome, real life poeple as students but lots of nitwits too.

I missed you Tekla   :-*

Quote from: tekla on November 16, 2009, 11:02:00 PM
You're clearly so dismissive that you wouldn't take anything some stupid uni student like me would have to say seriously anyway.

Yeah, having a doctorate and teaching ten years at the uni taught me very little besides this.

But a university life is set for introspection, not observation.  Find a street hustler for that, they can see in a split second what 10 full professors can often stare at for a year and never get.

I feel bad for the students who had to go to your class with all your presumptions then :p

Keeper wound, shutter tight.

R O F L M O A   ::)

Some of my favorite professors are pragmatic and even a bit salty. I don't really trust the ones who aren't, and don't get as much from their classes either. Over this last summer term I took an online race and ethnicity course and was constantly at odds with the professor because rather than just fill in the blanks I challenged him and he challenged me right back. When we finally met I think he was expecting this clean cut right wing extremist because of our heated argument over Israel and can only imagine his surprise when a limp wristed ->-bleeped-<- sashayed into the room instead.

Anyway for as heated as our discussions were, he gives me glowing references now and we really click and respect each other. He prolly thinks I'm some self hating autogynophile and I know he's an out of touch hippy, but I demonstrated intelligence and courage and that's all you need with professors like that.

Me  :) I didn't start looking the part until recently, and last summer I was still experimenting with my hair (blonde!) and clothes and was quite a show sometimes lol.

Quote from: Becca on November 17, 2009, 12:29:18 AM
Me  :) I didn't start looking the part until recently, and last summer I was still experimenting with my hair (blonde!) and clothes and was quite a show sometimes lol.

You make funny of the blondes now? what is the colour of your hair?

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Post Merge: November 17, 2009, 05:50:37 AM

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Quote from: Becca on November 17, 2009, 12:29:18 AM
Me  :) I didn't start looking the part until recently, and last summer I was still experimenting with my hair (blonde!) and clothes and was quite a show sometimes lol.

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Post Merge: November 17, 2009, 03:51:01 AM

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Quote from: Becca on November 17, 2009, 12:29:18 AM
Me  :) I didn't start looking the part until recently, and last summer I was still experimenting with my hair (blonde!) and clothes and was quite a show sometimes lol.

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Post Merge: November 17, 2009, 01:55:59 AM

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Quote from: heatherrose on November 17, 2009, 12:43:20 AM

It's just a rite of passage, Doll.

It's just a passage to you. That's very easy to say when you have the secret steath.

I wasn't making fun of blondes, I was making fun of me as a blonde. It was hideous! I went black for a while, and now it's dark brown with highlights and seems to suit me best. 

Quote from: tekla on November 16, 2009, 11:02:00 PM
You're clearly so dismissive that you wouldn't take anything some stupid uni student like me would have to say seriously anyway.

Yeah, having a doctorate and teaching ten years at the uni taught me very little besides this.

But a university life is set for introspection, not observation.  Find a street hustler for that, they can see in a split second what 10 full professors can often stare at for a year and never get.

out comes the 'my vagina is deeper than yours'

Teaching for ten years, and the amount of time taken to get a doctorate, one could say, have placed you in a rather introspected and blinkered view of life. Just because someone attends university, doesnt mean thier entire life is at university :P so that analysis falls down because it presumes a single environment.

Anyway, I take your 'real life is more perceptive and observant' and raise you 'Try passing late teens early 20s females, Its quite possibly the most difficult time ever... if one can pass in the gym locker at university, i wager no street hustler can tell the difference.

I pass in a locker room full of octengarians where the hot topic is comparing shingles

Quote from: Becca on November 17, 2009, 12:29:18 AM
Me  :) I didn't start looking the part until recently, and last summer I was still experimenting with my hair (blonde!) and clothes and was quite a show sometimes lol.

Well, if I'm really honest my natural hair is a dark blonde and a few years ago I changed it to an almost platimum blonde and it did seem to do the trick and helped and increased my confidence and ability to be stealth with people who did actually know me, but didn't recognise me anymore.

Well, I pass with the university girls because I'm old and they don't give me a second glance. ::)

Quote from: Becca on November 17, 2009, 12:29:18 AM
Me  :) I didn't start looking the part until recently, and last summer I was still experimenting with my hair (blonde!) and clothes and was quite a show sometimes lol.

:D My friends were horrified when I went from salt-and-pepper to reddish-orange.  After that, they were grateful for whatever color I came up with.

- Kate

Quote from: heatherrose on November 17, 2009, 09:31:40 AM

:icon_confused2: Bellaon, if you are goin' to show up for class mind flapped,
make sure that you bring enough for everybody.

You're right, that was pretty cold on my part.  Tonight, brown bags of Mad Dog & crazy straws for all!

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Post Merge: November 17, 2009, 04:32:53 PM

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Quote from: heatherrose on November 17, 2009, 09:31:40 AM

:icon_confused2: Bellaon, if you are goin' to show up for class mind flapped,
make sure that you bring enough for everybody.

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Post Merge: November 17, 2009, 02:40:55 PM

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Quote from: Becca on November 17, 2009, 02:07:45 AM
I wasn't making fun of blondes, I was making fun of me as a blonde. It was hideous! I went black for a while, and now it's dark brown with highlights and seems to suit me best.

Then I must join you in not making funny about these blondes with the secret stealth!

:icon_chuckel:

I prefer Circle K.

:icon_chuckel:

I'm going eat a pound of spiro when gets here!

I had a high school job working in a Circle K, I took it because of the free hot dogs. Seriously. I have to say it was quite a lesson in the incredible variety found in our species. Anyway they still have a fond place in my heart  :angel: I'll bet I met some people in stealth too, but obviously I wouldn't have known it.

Since you brought up vampires, who do you like best:

1) Edward Cullen
2) Alice Cullen
3) Bill Compton
4) Eric Northman
5) Bella Cullen

Quote from: heatherrose on November 17, 2009, 03:06:18 PM

What? Was the Stop & Go sold out of Night Train?

:icon_chuckel:

Isn't Night Train a song as well? Maybe that can be the battle cry for those of us who are seeking the secret stealth.

The Cullens are not vampires, they're posers. When Lestat finds out about their nonsense there will be trouble. I don't know what to make of Bill, lol.

I didn't like the Eric character until his maker died, that whole thing really developed his story.

I think it's called Angel, I know that's Mc's name, but I really like this Vamp show. Also, is Rise of the Lycon's any good?

mmmm yes, Angel. I rather liked the Underworld films, but from what I've seen True Blood is the only recent addition to vampire lore that comes anywhere near Anne Rice in terms of quality storytelling. My therapist tells me the books are even better, they might be worth looking up over the winter break.

Well I'm a complete ignoramouse on my vamp hist. I think part of the prob is that there is just so much crap out there to wade through to get to the really good stuff.

Quote from: xsocialworker on November 17, 2009, 08:28:50 PM
Since you brought up vampires, who do you like best:

1) Edward Cullen
2) Alice Cullen
3) Bill Compton
4) Eric Northman
5) Bella Cullen

Eric.  ;D

In the books that "True Blood' is based on, Eric becomes a "good guy" and probably the love of Sookies's life. Isn't this more fun than arguing stealth? The sex scenes between Sookie and Eric are mesmerizing.

As proof of my intellectual majesty, I read the entire "Twilight" Series and all the Sookie Stackhouse novels. Now if Igor would put some True Blood in the microwave--------------

As for werewolves and shape-shifters , who do you prefer:

1) Jacob , 2) Sam Merlotte, 3) Alcide Herveaux, or 4) Quinn?

I don't even know who or what Sookie is, so yes it is more fun to hash it out over the secret stealth. I am Vamp inadiquite, in addittion to not being able to obtain the secret stealth. I've tried to tell everyone about how bad I want the secret stealth. 

The Secret Stealth is buried in a yard in Bon Temps La.

Quote from: xsocialworker on November 17, 2009, 10:46:45 PM
The Secret Stealth is buried in a yard in Bon Temps La.

Now see? Why does it have to be this hard to get an honest answer? Now I must dig, come, I will take you all with me!

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Post Merge: November 18, 2009, 12:55:17 AM

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Quote from: xsocialworker on November 17, 2009, 10:46:45 PM
The Secret Stealth is buried in a yard in Bon Temps La.

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Post Merge: November 17, 2009, 10:55:33 PM

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Quote from: xsocialworker on November 17, 2009, 10:46:45 PM
The Secret Stealth is buried in a yard in Bon Temps La.

I just finished watching both seasons of true blood the other night, and honestly if I never see Sookies breasts again I'll be fine. Call it jealousy or whatever, but the first time was intense, the second was romantic, but that lil floosy has them out all the time these days and meh.

I'm pretty sure Maryanne Forrester was stealth, didn't anyone notice her arm ratio?

Quote from: Becca on November 17, 2009, 11:31:12 PM
I just finished watching both seasons of true blood the other night, and honestly if I never see Sookies breasts again I'll be fine. Call it jealousy or whatever, but the first time was intense, the second was romantic, but that lil floosy has them out all the time these days and meh.

I'm pretty sure Maryanne Forrester was stealth, didn't anyone notice her arm ratio?

I confess, I started to go a little crazy before I read your entire post(I know, only dummies read the whole post), but you did include stealth within your post so I will drink & not worry about hijacking. 

Quote from: xsocialworker on November 17, 2009, 08:28:50 PM
Since you brought up vampires,

Hey, vampires wanna be stealth too!

Dear Bella, how could you be mad at someone who loves you so much?

Actually the vampires came "out of the coffin". I heard that expression and had to stop the show because I was laughing so hard.

Quote from: Becca on November 18, 2009, 12:21:07 AM
Dear Bella, how could you be mad at someone who loves you so much?

Actually the vampires came "out of the coffin". I heard that expression and had to stop the show because I was laughing so hard.

I'm fond of "vampire-american"  ;D

Quote from: Becca on November 18, 2009, 12:21:07 AM
Dear Bella, how could you be mad at someone who loves you so much?

Actually the vampires came "out of the coffin". I heard that expression and had to stop the show because I was laughing so hard.

You think I am mad now? You just wait until I get close enough to bite! I will show...sorry, now I only tastse the blood upon my tounges' tip.

I've actually been told I taste pretty good so you better be careful. Not as good as Sookie I'm sure, but she's too perfect anyway; someone needs to eat her face off and make the show about Lafayette from here on.

QuoteTara: uhm, excuse me, the door says LADIES room

Lafayette: so what are you skank a&& hoes doin in here?

Classic!

Quote from: Becca on November 18, 2009, 12:49:42 AM
I've actually been told I taste pretty good so you better be careful. Not as good as Sookie I'm sure, but she's too perfect anyway; someone needs to eat her face off and make the show about Lafayette from here on.

Classic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMJCXa6cNWc# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMJCXa6cNWc#)

Wow we are so off topic now.

;D

The antipathy of the non stealth peeps towards the stealth people is so obvious that it makes me sick to my stomach.  Its so disgusting that I want to throw up but lets not paint everybody with the same brush.


There are 2 kinds of non stealth people.

1st kind: The people that out themselves to genuinely help the community & dont make a big fuzz over people that choose to live stealth.  To those people I applaud & theyve got my total respect.

2nd kind: The frustrated kind that wanna be stealth but cant because either they dont pass or transitioned old, so the only thing they do is spend their time insulting the people that live stealth by saying things like sneaky, in the closet, dishonest.  To those folks I say.


No wonder stealth people dont like you and then youve got the nerve to play the victim & say they dont want to be near you?  heh if your animosity towards them is that bad & so obvious on an internet website, of course they wouldnt want you to be near them in real life either.  Ill tell you what.  Keep up the bs & the few people that still appreciate you are going to throw you under the bus too & when that happens, its going to be your fault, no one elses.  Shame on you! stop playing the victim & get over it. It doesnt work anymore!

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 18, 2009, 12:13:28 AM
Hey, vampires wanna be stealth too!

vampires have to be stealth or their dead a second time and much more permanately
jessica

Quote from: Yvonne on November 18, 2009, 03:55:28 AM
The antipathy of the non stealth peeps towards the stealth people is so obvious that it makes me sick to my stomach.  Its so disgusting that I want to throw up but lets not paint everybody with the same brush.


There are 2 kinds of non stealth people.

1st kind: The people that out themselves to genuinely help the community & dont make a big fuzz over people that choose to live stealth.  To those people I applaud & theyve got my total respect.

2nd kind: The frustrated kind that wanna be stealth but cant because either they dont pass or transitioned old, so the only thing they do is spend their time insulting the people that live stealth by saying things like sneaky, in the closet, dishonest.  To those folks I say.


No wonder stealth people dont like you and then youve got the nerve to play the victim & say they dont want to be near you?  heh if your animosity towards them is that bad & so obvious on an internet website, of course they wouldnt want you to be near them in real life either.  Ill tell you what.  Keep up the bs & the few people that still appreciate you are going to throw you under the bus too & when that happens, its going to be your fault, no one elses.  Shame on you! stop playing the victim & get over it. It doesnt work anymore!

Not to be in anybody's defense or anything like that but the malice of some of the non stealth people you talk about is very understandable.  It's got to be very frustrating to have transitioned old in life, destroyed your marriage as a man, put your children & wife through your own misery, finished transition with FFS, GRS et all & not be able to pass in simple situations like a mere credit check when buying something or a conversation with other natal females.  If I were in a similar situation, I'd be bitter too, so yea it's sad but understandable.

Quote from: Valentina on November 18, 2009, 05:36:23 AM
Not to be in anybody's defense or anything like that but the malice of some of the non stealth people you talk about is very understandable.  It's got to be very frustrating to have transitioned old in life, destroyed your marriage as a man, put your children & wife through your own misery, finished transition with FFS, GRS et all & not be able to pass in simple situations like a mere credit check when buying something or a conversation with other natal females.  If I were in a similar situation, I'd be bitter too, so yea it's sad but understandable.

Thanks for returning the topic back to the original thread..

I agree there is a certain amount of 'stealth bashing' going on and instead of well wishes for those who have managed to achieve what they set out to achieve. It's often met with negitivity from those who may have let their male development go on far too long before they came to a decision..

There are also those who cannot pass and regret not transitioning it sooner like yourself who do do not have any malace towards those who are sucessful. But No one should be under fire whatever their circumstances may be and we should all except each other for what we are.

Quote from: Yvonne on November 18, 2009, 03:55:28 AM
There are 2 kinds of non stealth people.

1st kind: The people that out themselves to genuinely help the community & dont make a big fuzz over people that choose to live stealth.  To those people I applaud & theyve got my total respect.

2nd kind: The frustrated kind that wanna be stealth but cant because either they dont pass or transitioned old, so the only thing they do is spend their time insulting the people that live stealth by saying things like sneaky, in the closet, dishonest.  To those folks I say.

Actually there are lots of different kinds of people who are not stealth.

Some people may just adapt a policy where they will answer if asked but not yell things out.

Some people may live in countries where not all identification can be updated to a total stealth.

I think much of the animosity originates from the "if you are not stealth you don't pass well or have /male/ habits" rubbish that some people seem to advocate.

Quote from: lexshue on November 18, 2009, 06:39:27 AM
Actually there are lots of different kinds of people who are not stealth.

Some people may just adapt a policy where they will answer if asked but not yell things out.

Some people may live in countries where not all identification can be updated to a total stealth.

I think much of the animosity originates from the "if you are not stealth you don't pass well or have /male/ habits" rubbish that some people seem to advocate.

So there's definitely two camps here and I doubt they will ever see eyes to eye unfortunitely.

There will always be two camps really.
Muppets that think they are stealth are the main ones that insult and belittle non stealth people.... If one were truely stealth, they really wouldnt care to insult trans people, and in real life, being near a trans person wouldnt matter.... if one is that passable to be stealth, its not going to out you... whats the drama?

There are lots of reasons to be out, I know a few, not all, but nearly all are valid and the person's own choice...

The big thing here, is that living, is our own perogative. None of us have the right to comment on another's way of living.... come on guys... its a tad hypocritical here of all places? We ought to concentrate on sensible things.... like uh, boots!

Maryanne Forrester and Lafayette are minor characters in the book. 

But back to stealth, imagining being at work as a guy when your fingers start to elongate and get nail extensions in full view of the other people, just because you got angry. 

'Don't make me wear pink... you wouldn't like me when I wear pink...'

Never worked as a guy though.... not quite possible to imagine working as one.

Please excuse me, Yvonne.  I don't mean to pick on you.  There are hundreds of examples of this on this forum and yours was the easiest for me to find.  There are parts of your statement that I agree with, but I would like to talk a little about how I receive it because I think a lot of this "argument" is how various people receive the statements of others.

Quote from: Yvonne on November 18, 2009, 03:55:28 AM
The antipathy of the non stealth peeps towards the stealth people is so obvious that it makes me sick to my stomach.  Its so disgusting that I want to throw up but lets not paint everybody with the same brush.

There are 2 kinds of non stealth people.

1st kind: The people that out themselves to genuinely help the community & dont make a big fuzz over people that choose to live stealth.  To those people I applaud & theyve got my total respect.

2nd kind: The frustrated kind that wanna be stealth but cant because either they dont pass or transitioned old, so the only thing they do is spend their time insulting the people that live stealth by saying things like sneaky, in the closet, dishonest.  To those folks I say.

No wonder stealth people dont like you and then youve got the nerve to play the victim & say they dont want to be near you?  heh if your animosity towards them is that bad & so obvious on an internet website, of course they wouldnt want you to be near them in real life either.  Ill tell you what.  Keep up the bs & the few people that still appreciate you are going to throw you under the bus too & when that happens, its going to be your fault, no one elses.  Shame on you! stop playing the victim & get over it. It doesnt work anymore!

I am one of the oldest people on this forum.  I finally admitted to myself that I am transsexual at the age of 65.  I have seen lots of criticism, both explicit and implied, of people like me who take a long time to work through our issues.

I was 9 when news of Christine Jorgensen hit the press.  I was 23 when Harry Benjamin published his book "The Transsexual Phenomenon", in which he coined the word "transsexual".  I was 26 when Stanley Biber performed his first sex-change operation.

With no internet, I finally found information on the process of becoming one's true gender when I was 40.  Information was very hard to find and I was shy and repressed.  I didn't have the inner or external resources needed for transition, and so I convinced myself I was just a cross-dresser.  Finally, this year I began dealing with being TS.

It is true that younger people have to overcome less masculinization – both physical and social.  Young people are growing up with more knowledge and understanding and acceptance of transsexualism.  Younger people should have an easier time of assimilating (going stealth) than older people.  All true.

However, as I see my body change from the hormones, as I unlearn how to be a man, as I peel away the layers and layers of socialization, I have hope that one day I will be complete and be able to live my life as I truly am.

I am not particularly feminine looking.  My voice is recognized as male about half the time on the telephone.  I have over 60 years of habits I am trying to shed.  But gradually, incrementally, slowly, the people around me see me more and more as a woman – even those who knew me before. 

I would be completely surprised if I ever achieve stealth, but statements that imply I have no chance are not helpful to me.

I'm sorry to be so touchy.  I'm still early in my transition.  This is something I've wanted since I was 3, so I'm probably too sensitive about it.  I don't see myself as a victim but as someone who has been given many wonderful opportunities, including the chance to finally live as me.  I ask only that as much as possible we are all somewhat sensitive to the fact that each of our situations is different.

- Kate

I have stayed out of this debate, because there is no sense in beating a dead horse.  And as one of the dreaded "Older" transitioners, I will say good for the younger ones who did not face what the "older" ones have.

Having said that.  The next attack, ether towards a younger transitioner or an older transitioner will result in a warning being issued for a violation of rules 4, 10 and 11.


Janet
Links Administrator

Pretty funny, considering that no one is getting any younger.  You have two choices, get old, or die young.  Choose wisely.

And, in my own way I always thought it was easier when you get old, people pay far less attention to you in a youth driven culture.

Excuse me, we were trying to talk about vampires, the stealthiest of all creatures. I go to bed laughing about Lafayette and his Aids burger and wake up to  >:(

How wonderful is it that things have advanced to the point medically and socially that people are able to transition younger and younger. I didn't know it was even possible until lately and I started as soon as I could get a doctor to cooperate (ok, a little before I admit). The fact is it wasn't hard to get a doctor to cooperate, the meds are safer, the procedures more refined and society more tolerant while I go from normal boy to freaky it and back to normal girl. It doesn't have to take into someone 40+ years anymore and that's really something to be greatful for. Setting aside the physical for a moment, those who are transitioning younger don't have to suffer as long, or drag children and spouses through it.

I thank the wind every day that I learned about hrt and transition when I did and not 20 years from now, not because of the physical advantages but because of the pain relief.

Quote from: Becca on November 18, 2009, 11:45:39 AM
Excuse me, we were trying to talk about vampires, the stealthiest of all creatures. I go to bed laughing about Lafayette and his Aids burger and wake up to  >:(

How wonderful is it that things have advanced to the point medically and socially that people are able to transition younger and younger. I didn't know it was even possible until lately and I started as soon as I could get a doctor to cooperate (ok, a little before I admit). The fact is it wasn't hard to get a doctor to cooperate, the meds are safer, the procedures more refined and society more tolerant while I go from normal boy to freaky it and back to normal girl. It doesn't have to take into someone 40+ years anymore and that's really something to be greatful for. Setting aside the physical for a moment, those who are transitioning younger don't have to suffer as long, or drag children and spouses through it.

I thank the wind every day that I learned about hrt and transition when I did and not 20 years from now, not because of the physical advantages but because of the pain relief.

I agree, these vamps are indeed the most secret stealth. How old do you have to be at first bite?

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Post Merge: November 18, 2009, 02:12:34 PM

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Quote from: Becca on November 18, 2009, 11:45:39 AM
Excuse me, we were trying to talk about vampires, the stealthiest of all creatures. I go to bed laughing about Lafayette and his Aids burger and wake up to  >:(

How wonderful is it that things have advanced to the point medically and socially that people are able to transition younger and younger. I didn't know it was even possible until lately and I started as soon as I could get a doctor to cooperate (ok, a little before I admit). The fact is it wasn't hard to get a doctor to cooperate, the meds are safer, the procedures more refined and society more tolerant while I go from normal boy to freaky it and back to normal girl. It doesn't have to take into someone 40+ years anymore and that's really something to be greatful for. Setting aside the physical for a moment, those who are transitioning younger don't have to suffer as long, or drag children and spouses through it.

I thank the wind every day that I learned about hrt and transition when I did and not 20 years from now, not because of the physical advantages but because of the pain relief.

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Post Merge: November 18, 2009, 12:13:07 PM

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Quote from: Becca on November 18, 2009, 11:45:39 AM
Excuse me, we were trying to talk about vampires, the stealthiest of all creatures. I go to bed laughing about Lafayette and his Aids burger and wake up to  >:(

How wonderful is it that things have advanced to the point medically and socially that people are able to transition younger and younger. I didn't know it was even possible until lately and I started as soon as I could get a doctor to cooperate (ok, a little before I admit). The fact is it wasn't hard to get a doctor to cooperate, the meds are safer, the procedures more refined and society more tolerant while I go from normal boy to freaky it and back to normal girl. It doesn't have to take into someone 40+ years anymore and that's really something to be greatful for. Setting aside the physical for a moment, those who are transitioning younger don't have to suffer as long, or drag children and spouses through it.

I thank the wind every day that I learned about hrt and transition when I did and not 20 years from now, not because of the physical advantages but because of the pain relief.

Well, I'd say early 30's for best results. Lestat turned a child and that didn't end well for either of them, and poor Jessica the vampire keeps regrowing her hymen.

Maybe if those of us who are really, really old like me, I will be almost 40 very soon, can pose naked for our own calander to help fund our efforts in our search for the secret stealth.

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Post Merge: November 18, 2009, 07:32:17 PM

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You know that Hoover Round comercial with the old people on their HR's at the edge of the Grand Canyon, didn't you  feel like going up behind one of em' & just pushing em' right over the edge & watch them helplessly bounce off the side of the canyon wall?

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Post Merge: November 18, 2009, 05:32:33 PM

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Post Merge: November 18, 2009, 04:39:40 PM

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If two people with the secret stealth go out in public together do they risk the secret stealth, even if they're different ages?

Lol, that's a cute idea but no  :angel:
I lived in Youngtown, a former 65+ only community on the outskirts of Phoenix  for a while and guess I just got used to old people and their paraphenelia. You'd be surprised by the places a golf cart can go.

Quote from: Becca on November 18, 2009, 12:25:50 PM
and poor Jessica the vampire keeps regrowing her hymen.

That made me giggle so hard at uni this morning.... cringe at the prospect, but also laugh in a morbid dark sort of way...

What has vampire's got to do with the topic?  :o

actually nb the topic started as a joke and deteriated into the arguement the joke was about
jessica

Quote from: jesse on November 19, 2009, 05:50:15 AM
actually nb the topic started as a joke and deteriated into the arguement the joke was about
jessica

I see. I actually thought 'Stealth' was quite an important and serious topic?

it is when the topic is discussed in the format it should be such as how or even when you should attempt it or if its even possible for a person to obtain it. Unfortunately everytime it is brought up in this forum it deteriates into mud slinging contest between open trans and stealth trans or older and younger transitioners or god knows what other combination the individual mind can come up with which is what the original joke was about. this is the last post i will make on any thread of this nature due to this division in our community
jessica

Division just means there is no real agreement.  Its not good or bad, but it just indicates that a consensus has not been reached.

In True Blood, vampires are not stealth and run bars where the public can mingle with them and other things. Weres are totally stealth and vampires and weres hate and distrust each other. The "religious right " wants to strip vampires of their legal protections and some even advocate killing or deporting them. Vampires and humans cannot legally marry under US law. This is why the shape shifters stay stealth and pass as ordinary people to the general public.

In True Blood, vampires are not stealth and run bars

No doubt in direct competition with the nightclub run by the witches in Charmed.

In Hollywood, all things are possible. 

Quote from: xsocialworker on November 19, 2009, 08:07:28 AM
In True Blood, vampires are not stealth and run bars where the public can mingle with them and other things. Weres are totally stealth and vampires and weres hate and distrust each other. The "religious right " wants to strip vampires of their legal protections and some even advocate killing or deporting them. Vampires and humans cannot legally marry under US law. This is why the shape shifters stay stealth and pass as ordinary people to the general public.

Its quite an amazingly good analogy for trans rights isnt it?

Are there any St or Fed laws against the drinking of human blood, is this legal?

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Post Merge: November 20, 2009, 09:29:29 AM

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My concience is catching up with me fast here. The people who chose to go stealth are getting dogpiled. I love the under dog. I prefere to have the odds agaiinst me to keep any success both meaningful, & to to remind me of the value of humility. This thread has degraded not in the way others have described, but rather many against few. I hate bullies. I hate people that gang up on others to make themselves feel better. I feel like ->-bleeped-<- because I have contributed to that in which I hate most, taking or disrespecting  freedom. I never had, have, or will have any ill will towards those who go stealth. The punchline, I still have no idea why this is so divisive. If I chose to go stealth, I just don't have it in me to give a sh*t what anyone else thinks. I just don't get it. Maybe I'm just arrogant, but if I go stealth I do not give a sh#t what anyone thinks of that. God I must be rough ass piece of bark.

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Post Merge: November 20, 2009, 08:08:14 AM

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There are 12 pages of completely useless sh#t here. My posts are the most useless of the bunch. After 12 pages of useless crap I still do not understand ANY  of these divisive issues! I am old, kiss my ass, I might go stealth tommorw, kiss my ass, I want to dye my hair pink, kiss my ass, I think my neighbor may be stealth, kiss my ass, tommorow I may dissagree, kiss my ass! I do not understand this at all. Maybe I'll go steallth in the mornig, maybe I won't, kiss my ass!

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Post Merge: November 20, 2009, 06:08:39 AM

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Post Merge: November 20, 2009, 04:09:28 AM

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Post Merge: November 20, 2009, 01:31:50 AM

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This is a Goddamned eberassment. We want to be accecetpted & integrate into society, but turn around & look at this 12 pages of complete & total crap. Look at what we do to eacch other & ask others to try & understand. My conclusion, I'm on my own. But it is sad to see young peiple, see old people fight over what? Kiss my ass. 

I'll happily give your "ass" a big sloppy kiss if it helps fix whatever techno-spasm it is that causes you to create so many blank "post-merge" entries when you post :)

Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 19, 2009, 05:59:35 PM
Are there any St or Fed laws against the drinking of human blood, is this legal?

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Post Merge: November 20, 2009, 09:29:29 AM

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My concience is catching up with me fast here. The people who chose to go stealth are getting dogpiled. I love the under dog. I prefere to have the odds agaiinst me to keep any success both meaningful, & to to remind me of the value of humility. This thread has degraded not in the way others have described, but rather many against few. I hate bullies. I hate people that gang up on others to make themselves feel better. I feel like ->-bleeped-<- because I have contributed to that in which I hate most, taking or disrespecting  freedom. I never had, have, or will have any ill will towards those who go stealth. The punchline, I still have no idea why this is so divisive. If I chose to go stealth, I just don't have it in me to give a sh*t what anyone else thinks. I just don't get it. Maybe I'm just arrogant, but if I go stealth I do not give a sh#t what anyone thinks of that. God I must be rough ass piece of bark.

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Post Merge: November 20, 2009, 08:08:14 AM

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There are 12 pages of completely useless sh#t here. My posts are the most useless of the bunch. After 12 pages of useless crap I still do not understand ANY  of these divisive issues! I am old, kiss my ass, I might go stealth tommorw, kiss my ass, I want to dye my hair pink, kiss my ass, I think my neighbor may be stealth, kiss my ass, tommorow I may dissagree, kiss my ass! I do not understand this at all. Maybe I'll go steallth in the mornig, maybe I won't, kiss my ass!

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Post Merge: November 20, 2009, 06:08:39 AM

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Post Merge: November 20, 2009, 04:09:28 AM

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Post Merge: November 20, 2009, 01:31:50 AM

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This is a Goddamned eberassment. We want to be accecetpted & integrate into society, but turn around & look at this 12 pages of complete & total crap. Look at what we do to eacch other & ask others to try & understand. My conclusion, I'm on my own. But it is sad to see young peiple, see old people fight over what? Kiss my ass.

Actually I found it a valuable discussion and it helped me
resolve some things in my own mind. I've been in lots or conversations like this where the tone ebbs and flows, especially discussing matters people are passionate about. We were discussing sentencing for the homicidally
mentally ill the other day and I'd never seen a room of old ladies come so
alive. Even the odd break to talk about vampires, dripping with relevant analogy, makes it a less heavy read.

The author of the novels that True Blood is based on has admitted that part of it is a thinly veiled attack on bigotry, especially against GLBT people. Note the church with the sign that reads "God Hates Fangs". When the Weres do come out, one man shoots his wife when she admits that she turns into some animal and that is why she is gone when the moon is full. He thought she was visiting relatives and is enraged that she kept a secret identity from him. He wondered what else she was lying about. Sound familiar ?   Tonight is the national Day of Rememberence.

QUIT spoiling the story!
lalalLalLalalalalalala I didn't hear that. How many of these novels are there, and how do they compare to True Blood in terms of storytelling? If the novels are worth it i'll look them up over the holiday break, but reading is for business during the term, lol, not pleasure. I admit I was suprised by how well TB is done, and checked the credits for Joss Whedon. Shockingly, he wasn't there.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 18, 2009, 10:42:49 AM
I have stayed out of this debate, because there is no sense in beating a dead horse.  And as one of the dreaded "Older" transitioners, I will say good for the younger ones who did not face what the "older" ones have.

Having said that.  The next attack, ether towards a younger transitioner or an older transitioner will result in a warning being issued for a violation of rules 4, 10 and 11.


Janet
Links Administrator

If you're looking for a subject that will ultimately go nuclear, this is it.

What I don't get is this; The younger you are, the more you will benefit from positive societal changes.  So it makes perfect sense that the youngest trans would be the most active in trying to eliminate the negative stigma.

But that's not what I see here.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems there's a younger I'm-stealth-and-leave-me-alone (LMA) crowd who resents the older-sometimes-activist (OSA) crowd that is trying to make this a better world for all trans people.

When the OSAs talk about the importance of changing the negative stigma I hear a some LMAs respond as if the OSAs are telling them they have to get out there on the front lines and fight.  And, IMHO, I think that's where the animosity begins.

No matter how you cut it, the older you are, the less chance of you enjoying a world where trans people are treated the same as everyone else.  I know I'll never see that in my life.  No way.  If you're in your teens or 20s, you probably will, to some degree, but only if there's someone out there working to make it happen.

There are teens today getting thrown out of their house when their parents find out they are trans.  Their parents simply disown them.  And for the rest, there's a lot of family rejection they experience too.  And it's all because of ignorance.  That will never change unless people go out in numbers and fight to change it.

Personally, going out and fighting for trans rights will have little or no effect on my life, now or ever.  So it makes no sense for me to go out there and work my butt off so the younger generation can enjoy the fruits of my labor, especially if they don't appreciate it.  And anyone in their 40's on up can say pretty much the same thing.  But the 40s on up are exactly the people you see the most at rallys, marches, etc.

So when I hear the younger generation say things like, "Those people embarrass me" or "I don't want to be seen with those people" I scratch my head and wonder why any of are even bothering. 

If, across the board, the younger generation says they don't care about trans rights or changing the negative stigma and that they aren't willing to join in with that fight, then those of us who have been out on the front lines fighting for these things should go back to our own lives and enjoy what little we have left.

Julie

Wow, I guess I gotta a little crazy there for a moment. Hopefully my spiro will be here soon & I'll break the low blood pressure record.

I don't think you're really almost 40, yer too awesome
and noncynical  :-* I think you're 19 and complete stealth and just trying to get our panties all twisted. I'm on to you Missy!

I would like to solicit a huge group hug from all the Stealth and Non-Stealth brothers and sisters and others here. :-)  :eusa_dance:

I can contribute to a gentle hug, but with as many budding boobs as there are around here a big giant hug sounds a lil ouchy!

Quote from: Becca on November 20, 2009, 02:53:37 PM
I can contribute to a gentle hug, but with as many budding boobs as there are around here a big giant hug sounds a lil ouchy!

That is very funny...especially since mine are hurting worst today than ever! :)

Quote from: finewine on November 20, 2009, 04:17:42 AM
I'll happily give your "ass" a big sloppy kiss if it helps fix whatever techno-spasm it is that causes you to create so many blank "post-merge" entries when you post :)

It's my phone, I hate it too.

Huggles Family Huggles


Janet

Quote from: Becca on November 20, 2009, 02:46:19 PM
I don't think you're really almost 40, yer too awesome
and noncynical  :-* I think you're 19 and complete stealth and just trying to get our panties all twisted. I'm on to you Missy!

I would still like to do the naked calendar with the people that are really old.

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Post Merge: November 20, 2009, 03:21:27 PM

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Quote from: Becca on November 20, 2009, 02:46:19 PM
I don't think you're really almost 40, yer too awesome
and noncynical  :-* I think you're 19 and complete stealth and just trying to get our panties all twisted. I'm on to you Missy!

You need an iPhone. I like my itouch better than my actual puter, come to think of it the only time I use my puter anymore is for writing papers. As you can see it doesn't usually techno spaz, lol.

Quote from: heatherrose on November 20, 2009, 04:22:25 AM

I think it is her way of "bumping" the tread.

I can go with that.

One of the most common issues that arose during my time with the SAMHSA grant were young transitioners who had been evicted from their families, had few job skills, and no money. Faith based programs, for the most part, denied them services. It was us Oldies But Goodies who actually worked with the Feds to create a safe shelter program for mostly young folk.  Think of it this way. Where would the Jonas Brothers be if the Beatles didn't pave the way.

:icon_chuckel:

I had to come out to someone yesterday because I'm still legally male.  I either opened up a mind a little or his nutso buddies will pay me an armed midnight visit.  Whatever.

But the experience reminded me that we are easily marginalized because there appear to be so few of us.  It seems that it is only around the time of transition - before and during - that we are visible to the general population.  Very few people I know have ever knowingly known a transsexual before.  To them I represent all of us.  (God help us!)  I'm sure they have met other TSs, but since they didn't realize they did this is new territory for them.

Yes, I just want to get on with my life as the woman I always should have been.  But I really hate to see people discriminated against because of an accident of birth.

And I'll volunteer for the old-people calendar when my boobs get a little bigger and my prolapsed vagina is put back in place. :)

- Kate

I am begining to actually get a little bit excited just at the thought of a TS calendar of those of us really old people. Other really old women have done this with bravacious results. We could donate everything to one or more worthy causes & do something totally unique in a tastefull manner.

How about a calender of TS pin-ups who are also vampires?

This is like the begining of fear & loathing. How the hell can we have an adult conversation about anything with all these vampires swooping in?!?! For the love of God, get rid of these damn bats!

Can you even TAKE pictures of vampires? It would truly be a curse to be a trans vampire, all your surgeries would reverse themselves.

Quote from: xsocialworker on November 20, 2009, 10:49:53 PM
How about a calender of TS pin-ups who are also vampires?

What about us trans Lycans.  Are we going to restart that old vampyre vs, Lycan wars from 400 years ago?  ;D



Janet

It's a shame a valid and interesting thread is hijacked by such nonsense!

But I suppose many TS's live their lives in a complete fantasy world!

Ya betcha by golly some GG's live in complete fantasy. They think if you quit your job half-way through, "write" a short book, go on Oprah, and wink a whole lot -------------wow----------you can be qualified to be President.

Quote from: xsocialworker on November 21, 2009, 07:32:41 AM
Ya betcha by golly some GG's live in complete fantasy. They think if you quit your job half-way through, "write" a short book, go on Oprah, and wink a whole lot -------------wow----------you can be qualified to be President.

LOL :icon_mrhappy:

Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 21, 2009, 01:27:58 AM
What about us trans Lycans.  Are we going to restart that old vampyre vs, Lycan wars from 400 years ago?  ;D



Janet

Someone has already stated these Wearwolves have much of the secret stealth & if not they may be terrifying next to the naked geriatric ts comm.

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Post Merge: November 21, 2009, 08:12:26 AM

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Quote from: xsocialworker on November 21, 2009, 07:32:41 AM
Ya betcha by golly some GG's live in complete fantasy. They think if you quit your job half-way through, "write" a short book, go on Oprah, and wink a whole lot -------------wow----------you can be qualified to be President.

I too have become suspicicious of these people who use the Opera in this disturbing manner.

Lets leave writers alone... Whats wrong with quitting your job to do something you truely want?


I can smell the wiff of hypocracy creeping in again :P

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 21, 2009, 08:35:58 AM
Lets leave writers alone... Whats wrong with quitting your job to do something you truely want?


I can smell the wiff of hypocracy creeping in again :P

I must agree with this, look what Sarah Palen has done!

"99% of them dont"

Please show us a link to where this research was concluded. Thanks

And you are a very mean person.

As this topic has turned to personal attacks, which is against the rules by the by, I'm locking this topic.

Stealth is a touchy subject for many.
Think twice before starting yet another thread that will almost certainly end up the same way as this one.