Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Ontario gym owner fumes after transgender bathroom battle

By Linda Nguyen and Allison Cross , Canwest News ServiceNovember 10, 2009

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Ontario+owner+fumes+after+transgender+bathroom+battle/2208332/story.html (http://www.theprovince.com/news/Ontario+owner+fumes+after+transgender+bathroom+battle/2208332/story.html)

A fitness club owner in southwestern Ontario said Tuesday he has wasted tens of thousands of dollars fighting a legal battle with a transgender woman over which washrooms she should use, only to have the case thrown out by the Ontario Human Rights Commission.

"It's like I've been terrorized by this for years," said John Fulton, owner of Downtown Health Club for Women and Fulton Fitness in St. Catharines. "I wanted to take them to task. I didn't want to settle and pay them. I told them that they weren't going to get a penny from me. I didn't care if I ended up homeless because of this."

If he really did support the LGBT then he wouldn't have a problem with her using the women's change room. He acknowledges her as a 'her', so I don't see why he's fighting.

This always comes up. Some man or woman professes how they have always supported GLBT rights and blah blah blah..but when push comes to shove they don't want those same GLBT people, that they support so much, using their bathrooms or sitting in the same bar with them or teaching their children.  Equality is more than lip service.

They do realize it's not 'catchy' right?  ::)

He is transphoblc, pure and simple.  His support of the GLBT community is just lip service.   She should have continued with her suit and brough him to bear.

But then again I am just a person who is getting tired of everyone stepping all over our rights.


Janet

Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 11, 2009, 11:42:54 AM
He is transphoblc, pure and simple.  His support of the GLBT community is just lip service.   She should have continued with her suit and brough him to bear.

But then again I am just a person who is getting tired of everyone stepping all over our rights.


Janet

I completely agree. The law would be on her side as well.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 11, 2009, 11:42:54 AM
He is transphoblc, pure and simple.  His support of the GLBT community is just lip service.

hmmm.... For many years, Fulton has been an organizer and sponsor for the local AIDS Walk for Life fundraiser.  This year he added an after-walk concert/party.
http://www.niagarathisweek.com/arts_and_entertainment/article/279133 (http://www.niagarathisweek.com/arts_and_entertainment/article/279133)

Perhaps this is the basis for his claim of supporting the GLBT community?  It certainly is laudable, but doesn't imply any understanding or support of transgender rights.

To be fair if one was to research the claim one would see that the person identified as transgender and claimed to be pre-op (still had all the male genitals) There is no mention that the person was diagnosed with GID, that the person was in therapy or that the person had carry documents of any kind with recommendations and/or advice for those like the defendant, who would find themselves in such a situation. It doesn't mention if the person was going through their RLT, was on HRT etc.  For reasons not made public, the claimant dropped the claim, but one can wonder whay, as the person may not have had a leg to stand on.

I'll probably be put on the watch list again but what the heck...  However I strongly believe that when faced with situations like this, those who are TS need to be reasonable.  This was a female only fitness club.  The owner didn't deny who or what the person was, although he admitted he had never faced a situation like this.  He didn't out right prevent the person from joining,, instead he offered compromises to provide private changing areas and recommended that the person could change clothes elsewhere then come to the fitness centre to participate in their programs.

Now MtF TS should realize that we transition to be the women we are, we don't transition to be transsexuals, and it's all about fitting in, blending in, passing, acceptance, tolerance etc. etc. I can see the owners point of view as well.  - Sure Miss, go ahead and join the other women in the changing room... off come the panties and ... Just a minute, does that person have a penis, is that a guy, what the hell is a guy doing in here, get the hell out you pervert or we'll call the police.

It doesn't need to be like that.  I was a pre-op in the same province and I joined a fitness club and had no problems.  First I started my RLT, I was on HRT and had developed my breasts.  I made sure that I passed, I was always properly tucked, I never removed my panties, and no one was the wiser.  I was a member of the club for two years and only stopped going when I had my SRS.

Cut out the BS folks, do it right, and you'll have no problems.  It's quite unfair to brand the owner as homophobic when there is documented support for the LGBT community.

-={LR}=-

Many times professed support for LGBT is support for

LGBT.

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on November 11, 2009, 09:40:42 PM
Many times professed support for LGBT is support for

LGBT.

- Kate

That's what happens when we are improperly placed under umbrellas where we don't belong.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on November 11, 2009, 09:43:40 PM
That's what happens when we are improperly placed under umbrellas where we don't belong.

-={LR}=-

So it would seem and I don't like it anymore than you...

However we are a much smaller group in comparison to an already small group. We need the support, because as it stands now, people are now just realizing that we exist or that we're not insane.

Quote from: Tristan H. on November 11, 2009, 09:55:18 PM
So it would seem and I don't like it anymore than you...

However we are a much smaller group in comparison to an already small group. We need the support, because as it stands now, people are now just realizing that we exist or that we're not insane.

Very true, but personally I don't think that putting ourselves in such a negative light is the way to go.  One only needs to read the blogs that sprung up on this case to see what the women and the general public felt about it.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on November 11, 2009, 09:37:14 PM
I'll probably be put on the watch list again but what the heck...  However I strongly believe that when faced with situations like this, those who are TS need to be reasonable.

Yes, I am not sure I would have been as confrontational as Ms. MacDonald, considering she was pre-op at the time.  But she is post-op now, so presumably was well into transition at the time she applied to the fitness center. 

Quote from: Ladyrider on November 11, 2009, 09:58:44 PM
Very true, but personally I don't think that putting ourselves in such a negative light is the way to go.  One only needs to read the blogs that sprung up on this case to see what the women and the general public felt about it.

-={LR}=-

I don't think it's necessarily negative, just that people are undereducated including people belonging to the LGBT or even 'Q'. The LGBT just needs to push for us more... or we need to do something ourselves. We're getting somewhere, but something really needs to happen on our end.

A side point to the lack of education links our lgbt grouping to trans being a sexuality... It doesnt help.

If we need support, im sure we can find it else where, inapropriate support that really doesn't care about trans is a good thing? why?

As for this case... i think she probably dropped it to avoid a media circus ruining her life as most do... doesn't have to be be cause the claim was false, and to be frank, if i was offered what he offered her, I'd tell him to go f*** himself. Being asked to change at home, or use the mens would be blatent discrimination. 'acceptance' is saying 'use private changing in the womens' or 'use it carefully' as advice.... not 'i accept you, but I really dont'

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 11, 2009, 10:49:11 PM
A side point to the lack of education links our lgbt grouping to trans being a sexuality... It doesnt help.

If we need support, im sure we can find it else where, inappropriate support that really doesn't care about trans is a good thing? why?

As for this case... i think she probably dropped it to avoid a media circus ruining her life as most do... doesn't have to be be cause the claim was false, and to be frank, if i was offered what he offered her, I'd tell him to go f*** himself. Being asked to change at home, or use the mens would be blatent discrimination. 'acceptance' is saying 'use private changing in the womens' or 'use it carefully' as advice.... not 'i accept you, but I really dont'

True, but we have to find that first. I plan on helping out with the community in anyway I can after I transition and have a stable job. Especially in Ontario(we need them to stop giving OHIP privileges to only CAMH.)

And I completely agree. There are better ways to have handled it. I did think about an issue with being pre-op if she was... but there were better ways to work around it. I'm sure he wouldn't refuse(and forgive me I know it's not the same but it's how the majority view it) a lesbian going in the women's change room, there's no reason why she shouldn't be allowed in there if they're worried about safety or orientation. Not everyone changes in front of each other. Some people take stalls too. In High School, some girls took the stalls, some just changed in front of everyone or went to a secluded area. Not to mention, there are unisex change rooms as well and no one takes issue.

I have learned through much observation that many times when a person says something that really isn't necessary to say, the opposite is true. For instance, if out of nowhere a person says "I don't steal" then I would start watching your stuff. The same may apply to people who seem to want to make it clear that they do not discriminate. If a person does not discriminate, they don't need to say it because their actions will prove it.

I am even becoming a bit skeptical about the company I work for. This company claims to be very "liberal" and "diverse" and they even have a Diversity Committee which regularly tries to educate the workforce on diversity issues. Strangely (or not so strangely) I have heard of a few complaints from employees who have felt discriminated against on the basis of race and religion. This company keeps forcing diversity on us to the point that it is rather annoying which almost tells me that maybe there is something wrong. If everybody is being treated so well regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, or gender identity, why do they need to be constantly reminding us of that?

Maybe the gym as shown above and other places are proof of these reverse PR statements. They say they support diversity until someone actually decides to be diverse. In some ways, I almost wonder if some of the more "conservative" establishments are actually more supportive of diversity including trans issues since they will be more likely to stay out of your business and not talk about the issues in the first place until it is actually relevant.

Simply said, I will start believing that a company does not discriminate when they actually remove all of the "We Don't Discriminate" signs.

Quote from: Ladyrider on November 11, 2009, 09:43:40 PM
That's what happens when we are improperly placed under umbrellas where we don't belong.

-={LR}=-

Hear! Hear!

Some intersting views here.

I don't anything about the case so will not comment. Where I'm living, South Aussie. the law dictates that a TG has the right to privacy and acceptance etc in the work place. it also states, that all facilities are to be provided to allow the comfort and privacy of all employees, and if this requires a separate wash room,that has to be provided. OK some here will call that discrimination. But I'm not sure; OK after or even during transition accept me as female, and once my gender is changed to match my sex fine.I am female. I know this will be misinterpreted, but in the mean time?  IF I'm a guy in a dress should I use the female facilities? OK I may look like a guy in a dress BUT I'm female. The guy next too me looks like a guy in a dress and he is a male pervert. How are the people running the gym etc to know?

Sorry Ranting

Cindy

WHEN does a public or private facility make the distinction?

Quote from: Tristan H. on November 11, 2009, 09:09:33 AM
If he really did support the LGBT then he wouldn't have a problem with her using the women's change room. He acknowledges her as a 'her', so I don't see why he's fighting.

Second.  >:(

Jay