Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I was at a TS support meeting last Sunday.  A girl there who is living in stealth was bothered by her stealth status.  She described herself as an activist but found that she had recently adopted a stealth lifestyle because she feared the reaction of her coworkers.  And this was becoming a big problem for her.  She said she never imagined she'd choose stealth over helping us achieve social progress.  That she was doing just this was weighing heavily on her mind.   

When I began therapy my therapist told me of this group.  She had started the group but had since handed it to an active TS to head it up.  But she told me something that I vividly remember.

When I started the group there were many girls there who passed easily.  Some I thought were natal females and was thinking of asking them to leave as this was intended to be a TS only support group.  I was glad I didn't because, to my surprise, they were transsexual.  What saddened me was when these ladies started to leave the group.  The reason they cited was they wanted to live in stealth and didn't want to be associated with being a transsexual.  This created a problem because the girls remaining in the group badly needed those women to stay involved so they could gain learn from their experience.

I can see her point.  While we are coming out and into public we need support and encouragement.  Much of that comes from those who have successfully transitioned.  But if those who can live in stealth remain invisible, where will that support come from?  If they remain in stealth, society will never know how many of us there are out there and that we are just normal everyday people.  Instead they will see the Jerry Springer kind of crap that has hurt our efforts so badly.

I'm not an active activist but I do consider myself a passive activist.  I won't go out and start groups or volunteer to do all kinds of work to help promote the cause.  That's not in my personality.  But when I'm asked I will gladly present to them whatever they need to know to help them understand we are just normal people trying to find happiness during our time here on earth. 

If I am out in public doing everyday things, I won't go up to everyone I see and tell them I'm trans.  But if I see them look at me funny I will make a point of smiling politely and even saying hi if the situation presents itself.  I feel I have an obligation to the next generation to do at least that.  It's not much but at least it's something.  But if I ever pass completely I hope I never go stealth.  That would be like turning my back on all those who helped me get where I am and all those who are hoping for a better life.

Julie, we want to be normal in our roles.  For many years, I wouldn't even be seen in public with some of my friends.  I was wrong of course, but I had to be seen as a female and I could not "out" myself for any reason.  March 1, 2007 will mark two decades for me since my GRS.  Most of that has been lived in stealth mode.  And it has been a very healthy thing for me.  I have developed a life as a woman.  I am married, have friends, do volunteer work, and participate in two local symphony orchestras. No one knows about my past with the exception of my dear husband.  My choices would be so limited if I were to come out.... especially in this redneck part of CA where I live.

Participating in the "T community" is a huge emotional drain. That is not healthy.  I've been through hell getting to where I am.  It is very difficult for me to come back and relive those experiences through others as they climb their way out.  "Why would I ever come back," I continually ask myself.  "Why am I spending so much time in this forum?"  I know that it must end someday.  I need to get back to my life.  For now, I have developed some friendships that are important to me here (you are on the list).  And for that I hang on. Fortunately, my work schedule is allowing me the time to reach out and offer any help I can right now.  That will change shortly.

So...  what do I do?  No one knows about me in my community.  I see no reason to tell them.  How much time can I devote to helping others in this cloaked internet incarnation of myself?  I don't know the answers to all of that.  I'm just taking it day to day for now.

Am I making any sense?

Cindi

You make complete sense, Cindi. That's how I feel, exactly. It's difficult enough being visible, being different, and still dealing with your own stuff at the same time. All I want is a life. The life I have is quite satisfactory to me. I do not want my life on public display.

I'm not ashamed of who I am. In this small town, people sometimes find out who I don't intend to find out, but if I treat it as no big deal, they're less likely to run around and say 'psst, that lawyer is a transsexual'.

I took my mum to the grocery store today and I left with the groceries while she was still paying. The checkout woman said to my mum 'is that your son?'. Mum said 'yes'. She said 'he's a good lawyer. I was a witness in one of his cases'. Mum said when she got to the car that she was proud to have a son who's known in the community in a good way.

I can't remember the woman at all, unfortunately, so I don't know when she was a witness for me, but it was probably fairly close to my transition, so she probably knows (I'm figuring, because I don't remember her, it must have been a while ago). But she was completely respectful to my mum and to me. That kind of person knowing, I don't mind at all.

If I was an 'activist', I think I'd change fewer minds than I do just being quietly me.

Dennis

Julie,
   I feel the same way. I will not go stealth, not even for a second. I want people to recognize me as a transsexual and know that my life liveing as a woman is "normal". I want the few kids who are in school who know they are trans to know that there are trans people out there and they are old and they do have jobs and are making a life like they should have had. To me, it is all about the children. I want to be out and be a mentor for kids who think of nothing but that they should have been the other gender. So they are not depressed in school  that they can achieve success in what they want to do and make a decision on life at a early age, not like me who lived until I was in my mid to upper 40's before I could admit it to myself. If more of us were out and in the open, then there wouldn't be all the problems we have now. Not to say that the problems will go away, but be less than what they are now. I would think that the depression in children would go down and that the suicide numbers would come down and also I believe that in some the drug and alcohol addiction could drop. I'm just talking about the children who are in question of their gender.
   I have had so many people thank me for being open with them. No, I don't go around with a sign on my chest saying I'm TS, but I will talk to them if it comes up. Cindi, you said you live in a redneck world in California. My mom lives 40 miles west of Redding Ca and it is very redneck there. I go to the stores there and to the little cafe that is in town there. They have all met me and I don't know if they know who I am or not. They all treat my very well and like a lady. They all know I'm my moms daughter as I look just like her, except about 6 inches taller.
    Yes, living in Stealth does hurt our cause, Sheila

I myself am trying to live as stealth as possible given the fact that 90% of my coworkers know about me it will be hard.  I can tolerate the work situation as I'm protected, but I date, and go dancing, trying to live as normal a life as I can.  I cannot afford the risk of being "discovered" by the man I'm dancing with, that could have some very nasty consequences.  As I said I'm doing my hardest to live my life as a normal woman and a normal woman would not reveal the fact that they are trans when in the club type atmosphere.  I would imagine that I would have a pretty empty dance card.  Some would say that 'Get serious... dancing!'  but I say yes as frivolous as it seems I like to dance and I would not be able to do that if people, especially men, in the places I frequent new of my past.

I will support our community as best I can given the fact that I intend to live stealth and I think that is fair.  There is many ways of supporting our community and still maintain a stealth status.  Coming here to Susan's is one way of providing that support and giving something back to the community.  Other ways are taking part in letter writing campaigns to those in power over the various issues that crop up from time to time.  Granted there is no guarantee that I'll be able to maintain this stealth status, but I intend to try.  Personally I do not feel that I have turned my back on anyone, I need to live my life as a woman plain and simple and I can't realistically do that with folks knowing my past.

Just my thoughts.

Steph

Ah, the stealth argument.  Well, as far as I am concerned, stealth doesn't work for me.  I am a former public official.  I respect others' desires to be stealth.  However, at the risk of getting flamed, I must say that stealth, to me, is just exchanging one closet for another, and to me, that is not healthy.  But each must make their own decisions in life.  I identify as a woman and as trans.


I try to contribute by addressing at schools, colleges, places where others are transitioning, etc., so that others have the right to be who they are and to live their lives as they choose.  This is not for everyone.  My feeling is that if by doing what I do makes one person's life better, then I have succeeded.

From the FWIW department

Most of us transition hoping to lead a normal life somewhere down the road.  For some people, that may involve living as
a post-op transsexual, for others, it's trying to live a normal life as a woman (or man) which often requires some level of stealth. 
I don't think anyone who has endured the rigors and horrors of transition is under any obligation to anyone so I find this idea of an
implied debt to the trans community a bit offensive.  If you want to be out, be proud, be an activist, whatever, please do so--I
respect your choice--but please don't suggest that I have a similar obligation.  I don't.  The choice between out and stealth
should be just that, a choice, an entirely personal decision without any expectations or obligations.  I'm a woman with a
transsexual history, not a transsexual, and my history is my business alone.

Dawn

Quote from: DawnL on October 29, 2006, 09:41:45 PM
Most of us transition hoping to lead a normal life somewhere down the road.  For some people, that may involve living as
a post-op transsexual, for others, it's trying to live a normal life as a woman (or man) which often requires some level of stealth. 
I don't think anyone who has endured the rigors and horrors of transition is under any obligation to anyone so I find this idea of an
implied debt to the trans community a bit offensive.  If you want to be out, be proud, be an activist, whatever, please do so--I
respect your choice--but please don't suggest that I have a similar obligation.  I don't.  The choice between out and stealth
should be just that, a choice, an entirely personal decision without any expectations or obligations.  I'm a woman with a
transsexual history, not a transsexual, and my history is my business alone.

Dawn

I couldn't agree more with you, Dawn!

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Keep in mind that stealth/out is not a binary choice.  You can find a balance in between.  I am living some portions of my life stealth and some out.  I think it's healthy, since it allows me to discuss some of the unique situations encountered from having a different life path than a non-TG person.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on October 29, 2006, 09:53:06 PM
Keep in mind that stealth/out is not a binary choice.  You can find a balance in between.  I am living some portions of my life stealth and some out.  I think it's healthy, since it allows me to discuss some of the unique situations encountered from having a different life path than a non-TG person.

Melissa

Melissa, I am very happy to know that this balance is healthy for you.  However, what is healthy for you may not be healthy for others.  So given this, I would have to say that everyone chooses to live life in a way that fits them better, and for me and many others in these forums, being out is out of the question.


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tinkerbell on October 29, 2006, 10:53:32 PM
Melissa, I am very happy to know that this balance is healthy for you.  However, what is healthy for you may not be healthy for others.  So given this, I would have to say that everyone chooses to live life in a way that fits them better, and for me and many others in these forums, being out is out of the question.

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

I agree that the combination is different for everyone and I am heading more and more towards the direction of stealth.  I don't know if I would ever do deep stealth.  It just seems far too stressful.  My point was is that there are points in between the 2 extremes.

Melissa

Hi All,

I agree. Those that have gone through transition have a right to live their lives with all of the happiness they can find. I totally respect their choice to live in stealth and never interact face to face with the T crowd again. It is something they have earned and I would never ask to infringe upon that.

My only worry, with being at the very beggining, is that I won't find anyone to support or be supported by. I know I need to transition, and the thought of doing it totally alone (aside form my gender therapist), to be honest, terrifies me almost to the point of tears.

*hugs*

Genevieve

Quote from: Genevieve on October 30, 2006, 10:56:41 AM
My only worry, with being at the very beggining, is that I won't find anyone to support or be supported by. I know I need to transition, and the thought of doing it totally alone (aside form my gender therapist), to be honest, terrifies me almost to the point of tears.

Do not worry sis.  There will always be others to help you out along the way.  Others that have travelled the roads set before you.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."
-- Isaac Newton

Melissa

Quote from: Genevieve on October 30, 2006, 10:56:41 AM
My only worry, with being at the very beggining, is that I won't find anyone to support or be supported by. I know I need to transition, and the thought of doing it totally alone (aside form my gender therapist), to be honest, terrifies me almost to the point of tears.

The best support tends to come from women near your level of transition or just ahead of you.  There will always be men and
women in transition and these people form the basis of most support groups.  I think in future there will be even more people in
transition so don't worry about going it alone.

Dawn

Dawn and others, I agree that this is your choice at being stealth or not. What I do question is how can you do it with all the communication that is out there. People you know before will at sometime ID you and then you have to worry about that. That means another closet. I don't really care how stealth you are, you don't owe anyone an explanation nor do you have to tell anyone. This is your business and I for one will never out anyone. I want to help others as much as I can as I couldn't find anyone in flesh n blood to ID with or talk to. I also want the rest of the world to know that people like us exist in this world and it isn't some made up fantasy that some porno magazine made up. I live a regular life, work, vote and pay taxes. I go to the doctor and educate the medical field and they know I'm around as they have to send things to universities on what to do with me. After all I have had testosterone running through my body for 50 years now it is estrogen and I have the bone structure of a male and the flesh part of a female. My mind is female but there are parts of me that are still male, not my genitals. So I'm unique. I made my choice and I respect others choices.
Sheila

Quote from: DawnL on October 29, 2006, 09:41:45 PM
... so I find this idea of an
implied debt to the trans community a bit offensive.  If you want to be out, be proud, be an activist, whatever, please do so--I
respect your choice--but please don't suggest that I have a similar obligation.  I don't. 

I didn't suggest or imply anything.  I stated what works for me and what I do.  I consider myself female.  But I also am transexual.


Posted on: 30 October 2006, 14:26:16

---

Quote from: Sheila on October 30, 2006, 02:42:25 PM
Dawn and others, I agree that this is your choice at being stealth or not. What I do question is how can you do it with all the communication that is out there. People you know before will at sometime ID you and then you have to worry about that. That means another closet. I don't really care how stealth you are, you don't owe anyone an explanation nor do you have to tell anyone. This is your business and I for one will never out anyone. I want to help others as much as I can as I couldn't find anyone in flesh n blood to ID with or talk to. I also want the rest of the world to know that people like us exist in this world and it isn't some made up fantasy that some porno magazine made up. I live a regular life, work, vote and pay taxes. I go to the doctor and educate the medical field and they know I'm around as they have to send things to universities on what to do with me. After all I have had testosterone running through my body for 50 years now it is estrogen and I have the bone structure of a male and the flesh part of a female. My mind is female but there are parts of me that are still male, not my genitals. So I'm unique. I made my choice and I respect others choices.
Sheila

Well said.  What I was trying to say, but I am not so eloquent.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have the genetics, the good surgeons, or the money to pay them, to be able to live in stealth after completing physical transition.  These people will be read wherever they go.  I find it hard to think of myself walking away from them.

Those who have been blessed with being able to live in stealth are really the best representatives we have.  They look and sound like genetic women and many would shock the world if they went public.  There might be an initial hysteria but in time that would subside.  I feel the end result would be society would relax their prejudices.  Let me explain. 

Think about the reaction when someone sees a beautiful TS that looks exactly like a genetic woman.  Usually it's disbelief, but even after they accept this rarely do you hear negative or derogatory remarks.  Now show that same person a non passable TS and what will you hear?  I doubt it will be good.  What I'm saying is if the general public knew how many of us transition very well they would eventually be more open to accepting us all.  Beauty can win over even the most closed minded.  And what will eventually happen is those who aren't so blessed will have an easier time transitioning and living full time.

I'm not trying to guilt anyone into coming out.  That's completely your choice and I understand if you have been able to live in stealth why, change your life for the off chance it might help someone else?  It may ruin the life you have.  But I do have to agree with Shelia, going stealth after transitioning IS like going from one closet to another.  For me, the closet was hell and I'm not sure I can go back into another closet.

Julie

It seems to me that living in deep stealth means keeping secrets and in order to keep such secrets you are obligated to lie.

If I find myself lying about myself AFTER I've gone through these painful changes I'll know I've gone backwards.  I'm doing this to STOP lying about who I am.

helen

As long as you live where people knew you from the past, stealth is not totally possible.  Several of my customers knew me from before, but they never bring it up, to them I am a woman.

I would never lie to anyone if they asked, but I would consider it a little rude to be asked.  I also would never go out of my way to tell someone I just meet about my past, it is none of their business.

Sarah L.

Quote from: HelenW on October 30, 2006, 05:34:21 PM
It seems to me that living in deep stealth means keeping secrets and in order to keep such secrets you are obligated to lie.

This is probably why I couldn't do deep stealth so easily.  The way I live now is I just don't say anything about being TS and nobody asks.  It works out well that way.  For the odd situations where I need to speak about more personal items such as my divorce, I talk in gender neutral language.  That also avoids any lying.

Melissa

I find myself completely agreeing with Dawn.  While this may offend some it doesn't mean that I don't care about those who follow.  You don't have to be "Out" to provide support, it's just a little trickier.  I agree Sheila that today's tech makes it virtually impossible to hide, but that will not stop me from trying.

My life is my business and no one else's.  I choose who to tell and under what circumstances I will come out.  For example last Sunday I was interviewed by a member of graduate studies at York University that is researching the issues faced by the GLBT community in public washrooms.  Of course I had to out myself as they needed to know that I was a MtF TS and the interview was conducted in a less than private coffee shop on Queens University campus.  I/we signed disclosure protection agreements and I used a pseudonym, there were no pictures but the interview was recorded.  So this is a case where I was somewhat stealth, but still was able to support our community.

There is always the fear that those who transition will leave the others to wallow, and struggle without hope of support.  But I would have to say that this fear is unfounded, as you can see by the participation in Susan's, many post ops return to help where they can, even if it's under a different name.  That is one thing that will never change about Susan's.

Susan's is not made up by, run by individuals.  Just as individuals do not make Susan's.  It is the input of all members of Susan's that make this such a successful site.  Fear not as members come and members go, but Susan's will always be here to support you.

And I think I'll step down of my little box for a while :)

Steph

Hi Y'all,

Reading through this thread, it almost seems like the gender question...Male, Female, somewhere in between....Deep Stealth, Totally Out, somewhere in between.  Just as there is no Wrong gender, there is no wrong answer to the stealth question either.

Both "sides" have logical and cogent arguments.  No one should feel "obligated" to be a spokesperson, nor should they have to relive their struggles every day in a support group.  Conversely, if those blessed with the ability to go deep stealth never speak up, then the world will only see those who do not easily pass.

This issue, along with so many others, comes down to a personal decision.  Not every is suited to airing their struggles, regardless of subject matter.  We don't ask recovering alcoholics to wear a sign, nor are they under obligation to sponsor AA chapters.  We don't ask people who have had birth defects that have been corrected by surgery to announce it to the world...why should those who are TG be held to a different standard?

Each should be lead by their own heart and should not have to appologize for, nor defend, their choice.

Keep in mind, this is only my opinion.  If you have a different one, it's fine with me

......Laurie

Ahhh the wonderful Stealth Question has raised it's head again.....

Once upon a time we had freedom of choice, but perhaps it is trendy these days to be Transsexual and "out and proud" in the Community.

Yep.... living an annonymous life is difficult when you still live in the same city, are married to the same woman, have worked with many people there and are well known in the community, If you are happy in these circumstances, I find that wonderful that is your choice.

I transitioned to be a Woman, I transitioned to escape a past I did not like and could not endure, I left my home city (and indeed Country), because I wanted to move my life forward, not get stuck in a time warp and have to relive those painful memories day after day, forever meeting people who knew my past and my background.

I had NO choice but to transition; but I have the choice how I live my life afterwards and decided I wanted a fresh start, where no one knew my past. It is my choice If I wish to tell people that (and I have, my closest friends know..... because I wished to tell them)

Some people will never be able to move their life on, I accept that, some people will never be able to integrate into society as Female because of looks or circumstances, I accept that. Some people will always need the support and comfort they find here, perhaps for the rest of their lives, I accept that.

I don't consider myself Transsexual, That was (a) a label society has given me (b) a transient phase I went through when I transitioned from male to female (c) became totally and utterly irrelevant to me with a birth certificate that now says "Female".....

We all have those choices, mine is to be seen, remembered and loved for being a woman, who contributed to society in the way she could. I will leave the cause for Transsexual rights to others and if you are comfortable and happy in that choice, I admire you for that.

If stealth is living my life, hapilly and totally integrated into society as a woman..... that is my choice.

Buffy

I would like to add something. I have said that I haven't gone into stealth which is true. I live in the same town as I live before, 25 years and I frequent the same places. I have gone to stores and have seen people that I have worked with for long periods of time and most of them don't recognize me. I don't know if they have been told about me, I would guess they were as word gets around. I think the best one was that I had worked with this guy for over 20 years off and on and we were standing in the pharmacy line to get our meds, both of us are retired, and he accidently bumped into me and knocked something out of my hand. He appologize all over the place and picked it all up and gave it to me and in his appologies he was calling me maam and honey and all kinds of fem. names. I know he wouldnt have done that if he knew it was me. He is a redneck from day one. Unless I have talked to them or have told them and they have been pointed out by someone they don't even know. Now, I don't hide my life at all. I have been in all the local papers and on the TV and radio. The store I worked for was Fred Meyer and the whole chain, in the meat dept. knew me at that time.
So I went stealth without even trying. I will not hide in the closet ever again. If you can't accept me then I don't want anything to do with you.
Sheila

I should also clarify that the reason I keep going more and more stealth is it's just becoming harder not to.  I don't go around telling everyone I'm TS and people tend to see me as a woman, so trying to be "out" starts to be a battle as well. :P  That's why I have a balance.  It wasn't by choice, but rather by circumstance.

Melissa

Maybe the reason this is so important to me is I have doubts I will ever be able to pass.  I want to live as a female but not as a stereotypical female.  I recognize there is another gender out there that hasn't yet been acknowledged.  I'm referring to the grey area between the binary M-F crap society has forced down our throats.  That's where I truly live, in the grey area.

I find it sad that we feel the need to succumb to extensive surgeries, FFS, facial alterations, trach shaving, etc. just to feel comfortable with who we are.  While I may not see the value in those surgeries I strangely see an immense importance in having SRS and have considered FFS.  Some things are so deeply ingrained they can't be ignored.

So am I a phony?  I really don't know.  What I do know is what society has laid out for us doesn't fit me.  And I have found a lot of friends here with whom I connect.  So you are all either the chosen or as screwed up as me.   Live on!

Life is for the living.

Julie

QuoteMaybe the reason this is so important to me is I have doubts I will ever be able to pass.  I want to live as a female but not as a stereotypical female.  I recognize there is another gender out there that hasn't yet been acknowledged.  I'm referring to the grey area between the binary M-F crap society has forced down our throats.  That's where I truly live, in the grey area.

Julie, you pass more than fine, if you want to. I'm in agreement about the gray area though, that's where I live. When I did my year long RLT, there was no choice to go stealth if I'd wanted to, I was living in a rural town where everyone knew me, and as a musician I'm a public person. I have no desire to change my profession.

Even now, I live in between genders, some people know about me, and I have no idea what others think. Lots of people are too polite to say anything, and that's fine, I don't feel like having to explain myself every minute of the day. But if someone asks, or is a close friend, I'll tell them. I do feel it's important to help people understand gender issues so that the next generation of trans kids don't have to suffer as much pain as I did.

zythyra

I am in total agreement on how much surgery you should have. I think you should have as much as you feel comfortable haveing. I have only had GRS and that is all. I have not had FFS or my boobs done. I guess I pass fairly. I do get made every once in a while, I guess. I'm not sure as I don't pay any attention to that anymore. If they think I'm a TS then I'm a TS if they think I'm a woman then I'm a woman. In my heart and soul I'm a woman. I think that is all that counts. Julie, if that is your picture, you look great. I have a friend and she looks just like you except you are younger. You would look just like her daughter. My wife said the same. Don't ever get surgery for someone else, do it for yourself.
    I still believe in the binary crap. I just believe there is a blending of the two genders. I don't believe in a third gender.
Sheila

I don't feel like I have left one closet only to have gone into another.  I don't have to lie about my past when I talk with friends.  I've told them I have children and that I love them.  Many of my friends have met my parents.  They still don't know. 

I have no need or desire to tell my closest friends about my GRS.  They know about my religious history and most everything about me.  I have not had to lie.  Why should I?  The subject never comes up.

I do not have the blessing to be able to pass easily and blend in.  I am tall, have broad shoulders, and have a fairly masculine voice.  I make up for it with my broad smile and a perky attitude.  Those two things make it possible for me to live my life in stealth.

I am not abandoning "my kind" by going stealth.  I had to endure the worst part of my transition alone.  I did not have "my kind" there to help me.  I offer my support now because I did not have that help when I went through my most difficult times.  I would have given anything to have a resource like this back then. 

Cindi

Like some of you, I remain as stealth as I can.  It doesn't always work...

Recently a friend of mine introduced me to some of her friends.  It turned out that these friends had ALREADY been clued into my "past gender."  I asked this friend to never do this to me again....out me before I've met someone.

At work, I had a boss who would describe me to my future producer boss as a "he."  Imagine his surprise when I showed up!  My boss was endangering my livelihood and I asked him not to do that.

I'm moving to another state to hopefully begin a life where no one but my best friend knows my past.  I've asked her not to reveal my past but it's a slippery slope.  She had already talked to her good friends up there.  Sigh.

Living in Stealth - does it hurt us?  Geeeez, I'd really love to have the chance to find out!  Like others here at Susan's, I will always look forwards to coming back to Susan's to offer my two cents worth of help and suggestions, as I see it.

But back to your query....does it hurt us?  Did gays being in the closet hurt the gay cause?  Perhaps.  However, as gays and TS's are seen on television and in the movies in positive roles, I think that'll do a TON more to promoting our acceptance than OUR, individually, being OUT.  I truly think it's a generational thing.  The next generation, from what polls say, will accept gay marriage.  And presumably, US.

Added to that, as TS's transition younger and younger, the "tipping point" to mass acceptance will undoubtably arrive.  So, best not to worry too much about the here and now.  Go stealth if you want.  Don't if you don't wanna.  Just do the best you can and go out and L - I - V - E.  Otherwise, as Maude (of the movie "Harold And Maude") said, "you'll have nothing to talk about in the locker room."

Teri Anne

Well, if i may drop my two cents here (probably only worth a penny but oh well). I first have to say that since I am not post op and have yet even to start hormones I may be way out of place here.  But passing is a big issue for me or the lack of being able to pass --for me I don't think i will ever be able to pass      :-\    I am very tall 6'4' and although loosing weight right now am at 215 pounds and have a very manly face (ugh)--but all i wish to be from the deepest part of me is to be the woman that I know I am, and to be seen and treated as such.
  I envy a lot of you who look so beautiful and so feminine and I envy all of you who have the courage to move forward and do what is needed to become the whole person you desire.   I am always looking for help and it is very confirming for me to know of others who have made this trip and are doing well, but I would never want to make someone feel uncomfortable all over again. So I think the stealth or not to go stealth issue is a very personal issue and I respect both sides and am grateful to anyone who is willing to help those of us still on the path no matter how they do it.
  I wouldn't want this issue to be something that becomes a division or another way of oppresion.  I know we need to change society and it is going to take all of us who are willing and who can to show that being TS is not something that anyone needs to fear and that like everyone else there are all types of us.
   OOps this is turning into a nickels worth so i will stop here, and just say thank you to all of you who give me a place I can come to and seek answers to my multitude of questions.

Love;    Mary

Hi All!   ;D

First I want to state that what I am about to say is absolutely not in any way a condemnation of those that have decided to dissappear from the world, aka go stealth. I wholeheartedly feel that what a person needs to do to maintain their own happiness, so long as it hurts no one, is the right thing for them to do. Going stealth hurts no one and brightens the life of those of us that have made it to fully become women.

I just want to point out a small bit of irony that applies to my life alone. But, maybe some others will be able to identify with what I say.

I have never fit into anything. I have never fit into any standard group of people, nor been able to fall into the trendy organizations tailored to make their members feel good about themselves. I have never made friends easily. I've had and made so very few real friends their numbers can be counted on one hand.

I think all of that is due to acceptance. Not these groups of people accepting me but of self acceptance. I have come to believe that I have projected this lack of self acceptance upon every group I have tried to become a part of, because I thought they would never accept me. In many cases that was true. Especially now, they would be even less accepting I believe, of the male turning female me. But it has become their problem at that point, not mine.

I have finally found two groups of people that I feel accepted by and feel my place in. One is of those groups are the Pagans/Wiccans I have become part of.

The other is the T community. I feel more acceptance here than I have ever felt my whole life. I think it is mostly because I see myself as a woman here and it's ok. I'm ok both inside and out about being a part of the T community.

I have become a part of community in which success is measured by the ability to physically blend in with the population at large, aka "pass". The brightest stars of the community I am now a part of are those that are able to leave it undetected, and able to move into the the world as women and live full lives.

I have joined a community looking for friendship and sisterhood, looking to belong looking for a sense of togetherness. But, those that are best able to help those many of us are only able to do so anonymously and not in person. It all seems very Darwinian that those of us that can not pass seem to get left behind. I feel this is a delicious irony and once it hit me, I felt a little better about life. Just knowing where you stand counts for a lot.

Please believe me. I envy you that can pass into the general population. I would do it too given the ability to pass. But I don't think I ever will truly pass. Part of it is my age. Part of it is all these silly male mannerisms that, no matter how much I try, I can't seem to rid myself of. And finally part of it is that small voice in my head that is telling me my situation is hopeless and that I'd be better off finding out what the next life in my chain of incarnation brings. Maybe I'd have better luck of the gender draw there.  LOL

*hugs*

Genevieve

P.S. This is not a suicide note. I'm not going to give into the momentary impulses I occasionally have. It is just how I'm feeling and an observation. Mostly all I want to do is just go somewhere and cry.

For me, I think I'm somewhere in the middle.

Walking down the street, casual society, I want to be accepted as a female.  I don't want to turn heads because I can't pass.  I know I won't be a knockout, but I really don't want to be seen as a guy in a dress!

In a one-on-one situation, I would be almost incapable of lying about my past.  If asked a direct question, I would answer in a direct way.  Sometimes this may not be the way a discussion is going, but for example, if I am asked how long I was in labor for my children, I would feel I would have to answer truthfully and say that I did not give birth to my children.  I was a male when that occured.  Yeah that will out me.  But lying is something I've been doing to myself most of my life.  Now that I'm not lying to myself anymore, why should I lie to the world?

I know of ladies who would dance around questions like that.  When asked about the how long labor was, I know of a lady who responded that labor for her son lasted over twenty hours...  To me that's right up there with "I didn't inhale", "oral is not sex" and other great lying truths of our times.

I have not been presented with a situation like this yet.  So what I say is only speculation.  My mettle has yet to be tested.  I hope with all my heart that I can be truthful to myself and the world at the same time.

-Sandy

I've only been presented with a question like that once.  It was in chat with an old work acquaintance.  She asked that very same question... well very close. She asked "What was labor like for your first?" I told her that "for the birth of my first, labor was no big deal for me."  That was the only time I've ever had to answer a question about the birth of my kids. I'm not sure how I would handle it in person.  I'd probably tell them that I am not their birth mother and leave it at that.

I have never lied.  But I've learned to talk about my "ex spousal person" even with my hubby who knows everything he wants to know.  It's sort of a valley girl thang I picked up when I lived in LA.  I know that it is old hat... but let me tell you, it works for me. It's my personality. When I'm asked about my excommunication from my church, I tell them that "I told a church authority that he was fulll of..." which I truly did.  My kids are now married and the issues about their younger years and my part to play are non existant.  Usually, people know that I went through a very painful divorce and left my home state.  If anyone intrudes by asking a personal question, I just tell them that it is too painful to talk about and I don't want to go there.

I went through hell to live my life as a woman.  I would never want to confirm anyone's doubt by telling them stuff they don't need to know.  For those who are starting out or are in transition, believe me... when you get past all of this, you'll not be wanting to wear a sign.  You will want to do your very best to blend in and disappear.

Now with that said, there are times when the issue is almost sure to come up.... like the little kid giving you the eye.  I look straight back and do something totally female.  I scrunch up my face and give them a big smile... and play peek aboo.  My smile does work.  The issue fades.

If an adult asks me point blank "Were you a guy once?"   I learned to diffuse the situation immediately by saying "Yes I was. And it was a pretty boring life, let me tell you."  In the last several years, this has totally been a non issue.

I have turned down interviews to promote my book.  Yes, it would be nice for the extra money in book sales. But I'm confident that those who need it will find it. I wrote it only to help others by telling my story.  I don't need to plaster my face across America for a few extra bucks.  I've come here to help some along the way... and you know what, some of you have helped me in return.  For that I am eternally grateful.

Cindi

Cindi,
    I will have to agree with you on most, if not all of what you have said. I have only been asked that question, on childbirth one time. The co worker knows about me and she just plain forgot. She was embarressed about her question and I told her I felt very blessed by the question as she knows all about me. How about that going stealth without even trying. I don't have the long past as you do Cindi, in being out there, but do agree that you do get used to some things and when a middle school person asked you a question like that you do smile and asked the question back. Like what kind of question is that? I face kids everyday in all age groups. I'm not allowed to bring all this up to them, nor do or should I. I'm on the job, but it happens. I don't pay attention to others and they don't to me. I only get sir'ed on the phone, but I make that correction to them and they start calling me maam. I don't have a deep voice, maybe a little deeper than most women, but there are some who have deeper than me. I think you just have to relax with it.
Sheila

Personally people who knew me before know and everyone else does not, it's unfair to ask anyone to be out in life just to further "the cause" while it would be nice to have a trans person on jerry springer or trisha that was acctually vaugely sane would be nice for the public image it's not fair on whoever is then outed to the whole country.

I have no desire other than to continue liveing as female and leave my past behind, I'll help others here and in support groups if the opertunity arrises for a good while after everything with me is behind me but at a point you have to move on, as long as you give back the help that you recieved to the next generation "the cause" will never die.

There are people out there who are "furthering the cause".  Many of them could easily live in stealth but chose not to.  That was their choice.  I'm not one of them although it's not out of the question I could be at some point in time.  We are all different with different personalities and different views on life.  Wanting to live in stealth doesn't mean you are turning your back on those who are coming to terms with their transsexuality.  Sometimes just getting through the day is more than we can handle.  But I doubt there's even one of us that at some point in time hasn't helped someone else with their TS issues.  We are by nature rather selfless people.

Still, I think it would be a positive thing to have some statistics that indicate not just how many of us there but how we have successfully transitioned into our new lives.  There's a book called "Finding The Real Me" that does that on a smaller scale but goes into each life more in depth.  My then wife read it and told me she saw me in those pages.  I was still in denial than and rejected it but a seed was planted.  Things like that help us come to the realization of not just who we really are but also that there's a glimmer of hope in fulfilling our dreams.

Never in a million years did I believe I'd ever transition.  I just didn't think it was possible.  But after reading stories about those who did, after countless conversations both in person and on forums, I finally began to believe.  I still struggle with this and if you took away this forum, the books I have read, the people I have met, I think I could sink back into that denial stage again.  The only thing that would prevent me from going back would be the knowledge that I'd want to die ASAP.  Knowing others have gone before me and seeing the happiness in their souls keeps me moving forward.  Once I'm there I could never go completely stealth, not after all the help I had getting there. 

Julie

Julie,
   For a long time and even now, I sometimes think that I am doing what I have always wanted to do and I'm passing. I will be walking down an aisle or will be driving my car and will say to Pat, I just can't believe I'm passing so well. I just can't believe it. I know at first I had a hard time with it and now I don't even think about it, only once in a blue moon do I think about it now. I just feel so blessed in my life.
  Julie, you mentioned that not everyone should come out and do the work or carry the cause. If at any point I have insinuated that I think everyone should not be stealth, I will have to appoligize for that. I really meant that for me and I think I have said before, I'm not a writer and I write down what I think and sometimes it may come out wrong. You are so right that going stealth or not going stealth is your personal decision. For me, I don't care if I'm stealth or not. I will not go back into the closet and that is how I see it. My own personal observation, not everyone sees it that way.
Sheila

I've read a lot about the cost/benefit about "coming out."  A wonderful gay minister on CSpan talked this last weekend about how those gays who were "out" helped the cause because average people now KNOW gays that are close to them or work with them.  Only by average people seeing that gays are "a lot like us," the minister argued, will society come to accept them as REAL and deserving of respect.

Contrarily, Cindi wrote here: "I would never want to confirm anyone's doubt by telling them stuff they don't need to know."  That made a lot of sense to me and more directly defines how I feel than what that minister felt.  Hey, I know it might help if people knew what I was but why put ME through that angst -- haven't I had enough pain?

If anyone suggested that I, personally, be out, I would suggest that, to be fair, EVERYONE should be OUT about everything in their lives.  If you've stolen a library book, if you've been in jail, if you've been unfaithful to your spouse, if you've lied to your boss, if you've done anything society thinks of as being different, terrible or perverse, heck we should pin a scarlet "A" on your breast.  Yes, people MIGHT come to know you as a nice person, but the more likely scenario is that they won't give you the chance.  Until the next generation grows up, we're stuck with a bunch of bigoted people around us who think we're, at best, brave (to do such a risky thing) or stupid.  Whether they praise or criticize us, neither result is the same as having them just say, "you're okay."  It is something that every person who is missing a leg wishes for...not to be praised or pitied...just to be treated as another normal human being.

In a future world, hopefully the majority of society will let us have that little thing.

Teri Anne

I want people to see me for who I am, rather than what I was.

Melissa

Hiee,

  My 2 cents worth on the stealth topic. First let me say 'Each to their Own'.

  Does living stealth Hurt Us 'YES'. Being transexuals does not diminsh us in any way from being woman/females. Keeping this a secret and in the shadows only serves to show that even among our own it is considered un-savory. The more society see's us out in the open living normal every day lives like everyone else the sooner total acceptance is going to occur and the need for stealth will vanish anyhow. Its the same ole question of 'Who me sacrafice' so that others can reap the rewards, NOT a Chance. In some respects its not unlike organized labour when it first began. Perhaps some day ........... (sigh).

Byee,
  Brina

Lots of interesting perspectives, and much of what I agree with. I will, however, take an alternative view of this issue. First, there's degrees of stealth, depending on your private and public life, and it's very much a personal choice. I will add, however, if you look at the array of information available and the Internet, I will argue it's impossible to be stealth throughout your life anymore.

I make this argument for several reasons. First, more and more personal and private information is becoming computerized and available on-line, and much of supposedly legally private information is available through professonal investigators and others. In short, it's impossible to hide. I'm never arguing to come out, that a personal choice about yourself and your history, but I will argue to be prepared some day when someone asks you about your past.

If you don't believe this, have someone research your background, and they'll likely find a lot about your past including your court records, credit reports, old/new birth certificates (remember many states don't destroy original documents but simply amend them, archive the old one, and send you the new version), school records, employment records.  And once they get your SSN, a wealth of stuff is available (same applies for state and federal agency records, nothing is destroyed, only amended and documented).

And we can't hide our chromosones and genetics. The day you have a medical exam at a new clinic or for an emergency, and the doctor walks in and asks, "Gee, Ms. X, your records says your female. Can you explain this difference in our test results?"  And as my physician, who has many transclients, says you should be honest so you get the best treatment. Otherwise, you risk your health and possibly remove liability options if things go wrong.

As for being public, that's a different matter, but I find it difficult to understand when post-ops use the community to get through their transistion and then walk away from it because they don't want to be associated with it or who anymore. And then talk about the discrimination and lack of legal rights for transpeople or talk about the public's perception of transpeople with other groups (cd's, tg's, tv's, etal.). To me, when I hear this, it's a big "Huh?"

I'm not arguing about being an activist, I'm only arguing to remember you don't go through your transistion by yourself. But mostly, you can argue for the general view of human diversity, rights and protections. You can educate and inform those who express discrimination or oppresson. You can help those who ask. You can be an understanding friend to another. And so on. And know many are, it's just we need even more.

I also argue many of the best examples of transpeople are those who are stealth, and those are the ones who should be showing we're just normal people getting through out life. If more would stand up when and where appropriate, then the public would see we're not what they think, and we're just like them. I've thought about a book on this but it would take some of the stealth to come forward.

Anyway, my thought on a book is borrowed from the book by Mary Ann Halpin's book Fearless Women (http://maryannhalpin.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/00513.1.1930105936319484744) except titled "Women among us". It's just a thought at this stage but I think it would forward the view of transwomen in the public. At least my therapist agrees.

Just my thoughts, and sorry for the lengthy post. And thanks for your views. Thoughtful and informative reading.

I'll add cause for me its a source of stress because outwardly i am not transitioned and keep the ts inside then i feel somewhat fake and i guess to my compliment people generally warm up to me and love this funny personable guy.. But is that who i am?, I'd like to it to be a funny, personable girl.....
So a lot of times i feel weird like i am living an outward lie or am fake or double personalitied?
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr............. :-\

Quote from: SusanK on November 16, 2006, 08:49:45 PM
...As for being public, that's a different matter, but I find it difficult to understand when post-ops use the community to get through their transistion and then walk away from it because they don't want to be associated with it or who anymore. And then talk about the discrimination and lack of legal rights for transpeople or talk about the public's perception of transpeople with other groups (cd's, tg's, tv's, etal.). To me, when I hear this, it's a big "Huh?"

I'm not arguing about being an activist, I'm only arguing to remember you don't go through your transistion by yourself. But mostly, you can argue for the general view of human diversity, rights and protections. You can educate and inform those who express discrimination or oppresson. You can help those who ask. You can be an understanding friend to another. And so on. And know many are, it's just we need even more.
...

All good points Susan, however I think that you are using a broad paint brush hon.  This may be true of others but I believe that many members of Susan's who have transitioned and are now post op while being members of Susan's often return or stay in touch with the group here.  We have many post op members and they have been, and continue to be a source of inspiration, knowledge and help.  I'm in transition yes, but I'm a woman not a transsexual, 'transsexual' is just a label I've been stuck with.

I am full time and I go to great pains to conceal the fact that I'm in transition.  I am completely out in the city where I live (I know a bit of a contradiction0 and many, many folks here know about "Stephanie" that "person" who works for the school bus company, and while several have asked for my dismissal because of perceived threats to their children, my company and the school board has stood behind, and I have refused to be intimidated by the threats.  It is through the support of the company, fellow employees, and the community that I have been so successful.  I am active in the GLBT community and through Queen's University I have actively participated to ensure that the diversity of our community is not over looked and I believe that being able live my life as a woman, being seen and treated as a woman does far more for us than being seen as a TS, as that is what I'm not.

Yes I maybe using the community to get through my own transition but at the same time I think that like others here, through my own transition I'm helping others here through their own struggles whether they be TS, CD, TV, IS etc.  I will be post op myself soon and it is my firm intention to remain active in Susan's, well, until 'Susan' fires my butt.
:)

Steph

I seem to really flip-flop on the whole issue.  If I think I'm going to go stealth, I seem to have somebody who learns of my past and completely accepts me and then I feel the other way.  The thing is I have lived my life in the way I have lived it and if somebody can accept you for the person you are regardless of history, then you have one more ally.  Personally I would rather have somebody know who I am and completely accept me than not know of my past and accept me.  It can really tell you who your true friends are.  However, I think it is also prudent to not go around telling anybody.  I never lie about who I am, I just withhold certain pieces of information about myself.  People can form their own conclusions about me based on what I have said.  If they figure out I am TS, the best thing I can do is to not hide it and act like it's something to be shameful of.  So, I still think I will live in a balance between being out and being stealth, but it will be more stealth than out.

Melissa

What is stealth really?  The whole point of us transitioning from one outward presentation to the other is to remove the barriers from how we perceive we should be living our lives.  I mean no one grows up thinking "I'm a TS", its a phase we have to go through to get to a point where we can look in the mirror and say "I'm a X" and acutally believe it.

Why would I want to live the rest of my life as a TS?  Once I'm done, I'm a woman, plain and simple.  Wait I already am, I just need to tweak my bod a little.

Quote from: Steph on November 17, 2006, 06:12:41 AM
All good points Susan, however I think that you are using a broad paint brush hon.  This may be true of others but I believe that many members of Susan's who have transitioned and are now post op while being members of Susan's often return or stay in touch with the group here.

Thanks, and it is partly a broad brush what we I see and read generally, and what I know from the local community. I'm not really active in the community (still in transistion and more an "independent" person), but my therapist leads local groups (~20 years). She said that except for the occasional meetings or special presentations post-ops rarely if ever attend support groups, and in their view, rightfully so because they're getting on with their lives, but at the same time the don't return the help they had during their transistion.  She say it seems the few who do stay feel burned out after a few years because they want to get on with their lives.

She has an interesting theory from her experience with both ftm and mtf groups. She thinks lesbian groups tend to be supportive due to the general nature of women being supportive, and most mtf's come from a male/male-like socialization of being competitive and have to learn to be supportive. She said it also may be from the public's less favorable view of mtf's and many just want to live as normal women, quietly forgetting their past association with groups.

As for this groups like this one, it's both helpful and necessary, but it's not really "out", it's like sitting in someone's living room talking (ok, a really big living room). I would guess like many other forums, there are a small percentage of active people, a small percentage of occasional people, and the big percentage of the silent.  Part of this is because as some have noted elsewhere, most of the forums have been compromised and people don't want to post anymore.

Just my view of things, and still an interesting discussion.

Susan,
  I like what you have said. I really don't believe that you can hide from your TS background. I also believe that I'm totally female, but a lot of my records, like you say, have alias's with them. If you are pulled over by a police officer he will find out as your license will reflect that when he calls if for any priors. When you go for a new job, they will ask if you have had any alias's and if you say no then you will be lying on your application. That will terminate you right now. We are in the communication era and it does help us but then it can hurt too. Only being honest will you succeed. You don't have to tell everyone you meet, but you have to be honest with yourself and certain people. I am stealth in the fact that I go out and do my daily routine as female as I should and no one else knows. When I go to the doctor, they know of my past. My employer knows of my past and some people who I work with. I have found that I don't get my name spread around the bus shop anymore. There are new employees who don't even know that my past was male. I'm not ashamed of saying my wife is Patricia and that we have been married for 37 years and we have two children, I'm very proud of that fact. I'm not ashamed of my past 35 years as a meatcutter as it afforded me to be who I am now and the house I live in and that I have supported a wife and two children. No, I don't go out and tell anyone about my past as it is none of their business, but in the same sense I'm proud of who I am and will not hide from anyone any more. Yes, we can live as women and be very normal and fit in. Live your dreams. Susan, write your book and I will buy it. Cindi wrote a book and I'm waiting for it to come to Barnes and Noble so I can read it.
Sheila

Sheila, the book is available from Barnes and Noble in their online store.  Also, you can get it from a brick and mortar shop but you'll need to request it by the ISBN number which is: 978-1-84728-942-1

It's likely not a title that they will carry on the book shelves due to the subject material.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on November 17, 2006, 04:13:11 PM
Sheila, the book is available from Barnes and Noble in their online store.  Also, you can get it from a brick and mortar shop but you'll need to request it by the ISBN number which is: 978-1-84728-942-1

It's likely not a title that they will carry on the book shelves due to the subject material.

Cindi

Once upon a long time ago I worked at a B&N.  We had a "Gay and Lesbian" section as well as a "Womens Studies" section, so its possible it might be available in the store.  Of course they're going to carry titles that are selling and that title might not appeal to enough people to make it worth stocking, but they wouldn't stock it just becuase of the subject matter.

If anyone remembers B&N was the bookstore protested becuase they refused to remove the Jock Sturges book of "artistic" pictures of naked boys and girls so I don't think they'd be afraid of a TS book.

Hey Melissa... I particularly like a section of oyur post is resembles most of my feelings..

QuotePersonally I would rather have somebody know who I am and completely accept me than not know of my past and accept me.  It can really tell you who your true friends are.  However, I think it is also prudent to not go around telling anybody.  I never lie about who I am, I just withhold certain pieces of information about myself.  People can form their own conclusions about me based on what I have said.

Except when i hod back some i either think I'm cheating myself or cheating them somehow?
You know conversly while i sit here and think say a friend of mine who all of the sudden said hey i gotta come clean and tell you i am gay, bi, crossdresser, etc.. and i've known you for a long time and i want to tell you who i am and still wanna be friends and want you to know the real me?
my response would be suprise probably sure, but willingness to accept or learn or understand, embrace, etc..
but coming from someone who is on that side of the coin i think for us it's a lot easier to accept and embrace and deal with and not judge too harshly but for those societal princes and princesses' well that door just seems to keep getting shut in our faces it seems..
Enough of my ramblings
Ricki

I've always felt MTF crossdressers will have the hardest time being understood or reaching an acceptable level of acceptance simply because so many remain closeted. 

When I thought crossdressing was the limit of my transgender personality I tried to get some support for coming out.  Get out and be counted.  But not necessarily have your picture on the front page of the local paper.  I was never able to get even a hint of support.  Most CDs simply didn't respond. 

Transsexuals don't have the choice of staying in the closet their entire lives.  There will come a time when you can't take it any longer and you have to be true to yourself.  Sooner or later, we HAVE to come out.  And when you do you will have to deal with whatever society has in store for you. 

We are part of society, but not very vocal or visible.  The squeeky wheel gets the oil.  If we choose to transition as quietly as possible, only those closest to us will know who we really are.  The rest will carry the image of drag queens or insane individuals who don't value their given sex organs.  We have to educate society about who we really are.  Until we do will be subject to the rules that kept so many of us in denial. 

Look at the gay movement.  Had they not come out in masses where would they be today?  Proabably still stuck in the closet.  So if we do nothing those coming after us will be no better off than we are.  If we do our best to educate society, we may not benefit as much as we'd like but those following in our footsteps will, and on and on.

The problem is we are in the early stages of transsexualism being understood by the general public.  Those who don't have the courage to stand alone can find some support but not much.  It's not like being pregnant and looking for someone who has been through it.  So, for those who do better with a large support group, you may prefer to stay in the background.  We are really at a time when only the boldest pioneers will stand alone and say "I am a transsexual and I'm proud of it."  What a courageous image that portrays!  Not sure I could do it though.  When societal pressures can't shake you from your beliefs, society stops trying.  Eventually they come to accept you.

I have thought many times of coming out at work.  There have been construction workers who have done it (not in my area) and lived to tell the tale.  But I could risk losing the position I have with my company if I do.  It's too complicated to explain, but I know that, even though the state of Illinois protects us, a scenario could be created that would land me back collecting unemployment.

I know I'm not alone with having feelings like this.  Coming out is a scary thing.  If my ex had stood by me and supported me I would have had a much easier time accepting myself and coming out to the world.  Somehow it gives better validation when a natal female stands by you and says, "I'm not bothered by this."  But we all have situations specific to our world and there's no one who can say you should or shouldn't do something.  All we can hope for it to someday walk outside and not wonder, "Will I be seen for who I am inside?"

Julie

julie i will end this evening by replyign to you, you are very very insightful!  what you said mirrors a lot fo what i think or how i think?
I know exactly what you are saying, woman we are tuned in! WeHeeeeeeeeee
When i look at things i think if someone responds to something i am less interested in what they said but why they said it? I think that is why i prod issues and want to push through things?  maybe that's me but GREAT post Julie!
alas i must go i rented Van Helsing and want to wind out the week with a few vodkas and some food and play with my dogs and my puppy!
luv
Ricki

Quote from: Ricki on November 17, 2006, 07:22:24 PM
alas i must go i rented Van Helsing and want to wind out the week with a few vodkas and some food and play with my dogs and my puppy!
luv
Ricki

Do you have enough vodka for another guest?  Give me the address and I'm there.  We can get drunk together.  ;D
Julie

Cindi, I did order online through Barnes and Noble. I'm just waiting for it to show up. They didn't have it in stock as they said it has to be special ordered. I have bought other books at the store with the same subject matter. They said 5-7 working days.
Sheila

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 17, 2006, 07:13:36 PM
Look at the gay movement.  Had they not come out in masses where would they be today?  Proabably still stuck in the closet.  So if we do nothing those coming after us will be no better off than we are.  If we do our best to educate society, we may not benefit as much as we'd like but those following in our footsteps will, and on and on.

I don't think the comparison to the gay community works.  They were talking about their sexual orientation not
their central identities as men or women.  Coming out as a transsexual lays bare our central identities and for MtF
transsexuals, the general perception is that we are men who want to be women.  We are years away from changing
that perception.  Most health professionals can't even get past that notion.  Fact is, we can't escape it ourselves.
Consider the most favorable definition of transsexuals: that we are males with female brains.  Maybe it's genetic or
some other form of birth defect, it doesn't matter.  Gaining acceptance as real women isn't helped by any of this.
I prefer that people think I'm just another woman.  If people find out, they find out, but I'm not telling anyone,
period.   My family actually told me when I came out that they wished I was gay, that they could deal with.  This,
this was too much.  I'll never be 100% stealth because I came out at work but outside of work I am.  Because of
FFS, none of my former clients recognize me. 

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 17, 2006, 07:13:36 PM
I have thought many times of coming out at work.  There have been construction workers who have done it (not in my area) and lived to tell the tale.  But I could risk losing the position I have with my company if I do.  It's too complicated to explain, but I know that, even though the state of Illinois protects us, a scenario could be created that would land me back collecting unemployment.

All that said, I never thought I could come out at work either.  I assumed it was the kiss of death for my business
so I found a new job and planned to walk away from my business.  As it happened, the job fell through from what
appeared to be trans-discrimination and I was forced to come out at work.  It was tough at first but it's working out.
Are you good at what you do?  Well liked?  These things will work in your favor.  I did file a discrimination complaint
with the local EOC and the final report said there was evidence of discrimination but insufficient proof.  This was with
a progressive organization who claimed to be trans-friendly (they had no trans employees).  You never know how
things will work out in the minefield of transition.

Dawn

Quote from: DawnL on November 17, 2006, 11:01:25 PM

I don't think the comparison to the gay community works.  They were talking about their sexual preferences not
their central identities as men or women. 

Minor point, but if we're going to refer to their sexual preferences, we might as well start referring to our gender preferences.

Quote from: Refugee on November 17, 2006, 11:05:30 PM

Quote from: DawnL on November 17, 2006, 11:01:25 PM

I don't think the comparison to the gay community works.  They were talking about their sexual preferences not
their central identities as men or women. 

Minor point, but if we're going to refer to their sexual preferences, we might as well start referring to our gender preferences.

Minor point??? ???, I am sorry but there isn't any comparison between sex and gender, and this is exactly the kind of perception that Dawn talks about in her post.  Gender preference? I did not choose to be female, I was always female before transition, also during transition, and I am and will always be female.....I did not choose to become female, I simply changed my body to fit what I am.

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 17, 2006, 11:13:17 PM

Quote from: Refugee on November 17, 2006, 11:05:30 PM

Quote from: DawnL on November 17, 2006, 11:01:25 PM

I don't think the comparison to the gay community works.  They were talking about their sexual preferences not
their central identities as men or women. 

Minor point, but if we're going to refer to their sexual preferences, we might as well start referring to our gender preferences.

Minor point??? ???, I am sorry but there isn't any comparison between sex and gender, and this is exactly the kind of perception that Dawn talks about in her post.  Gender preference? I did not choose to be female, I was always female before transition, also during transition, and I am and will always be female.....I did not choose to become female, I simply changed my body to fit what I am.

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

People don't choose to be gay either, its just the way they are.  That's all I was saying.  So its not a sexual preference any more then its not about me preferring to be a girl.

Quote from: Refugee on November 17, 2006, 11:05:30 PM

Quote from: DawnL on November 17, 2006, 11:01:25 PM
I don't think the comparison to the gay community works.  They were talking about their sexual preferences not
their central identities as men or women.

Minor point, but if we're going to refer to their sexual preferences, we might as well start referring to our gender preferences.

I changed my post to "orientation".  Doesn't alter the message one bit.  Sorry, slip of the adjective.

Dawn

Quote from: refugeePeople don't choose to be gay either, its just the way they are.  That's all I was saying.  So its not a sexual preference any more then its not about me preferring to be a girl.

You are right....recent studies suggest that sexual orientation is an innate condition, but let's not forget that sexual orientation refers to the sex of the erotic/love/affectionate partner a person prefers while gender is the internalized sense of being male, female, or having an ambivalent sexual status; the self-awareness of knowing to which sex one belongs.


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

I'm lucky enough to be living more or less in stealth. Those who know are close friends, family and some colleagues who I trust, as well as my various doctors.

Someone earlier made the remark about living in stealth as being akin to exchanging one closet for another. I couldn't disagree more.

For me, there is no need to wear a 'badge' proclaiming my status and besides, sometimes when you do out yourself to people, they can't get past that whole TS thing to see the individual. In their eyes, you suddenly become something of a novelty and slightly freakish.

Posting on forums such as this represents my only current involvement with the TS 'community' as my life seems to have moved on, particularly post-op. Personally speaking, I was always keen to get out of that box labelled 'transexual' and into that box labelled 'women'...

The analogy about the gay movement was used only to point out that they got out and forced the public to recognize them for who they are.  The same could be said about many minority groups.  They go out and march, they put faces and voices in the media, they refuse to be swept aside.  And the general public was educated.  Never did I intend to imply gays and transsexuals are similar in the gender/sexual orientation department. 

Since the beginning of man people have been protesting, marching, holding rallys to get their word out.  And eventually it works, to varying degrees, but it's a move forward.  There have been many pioneers who have paved the way for us to be where we are today.  They sacrificed a lot.  Remember, there was a time when surgeons considered SRS as being unethical.  The idea of operating on a healthy human being with seemingly no problems was against their oath. 

Today, thanks in large part to the pioneers who paved the way, we not only have a good number of SRS surgeons to choose from but also FFS surgeons, all of whom want to help us become on the outside who we are on the inside.  But without representatives coming forward and educating people about the realities of being transsexual, none of this would have happened.  We'd still be living in the dark ages.

I'm not standing on a soapbox trying to rally anyone to come out of the closet, out themselves or anything in between.  I'm simply pointing out we need a voice out there.  While this website is a great help to everyone here, the average Joe may never see a single word posted here.  We need someone out there to educate the public through a media they connect to.  Right now, I'm not that person, but there are some people out there who are doing just that.  And if they had each and every one of us supporting them I'm sure they would be motivated to be more vocal or to get the word out to more people.

How many Hispanics are living in the United States?  There's a statistic that will give you a reasonable estimate.  How many African-Americans are living in the United states?  There's a statistic that will give you a reasonable estimate.  How many transgendered people are living in the United States?  It's anyone's guess.  No one really knows.  But what if the actual numbers were known?  I think the general public would be surprised.  And if the numbers were large enough (and I'm sure they are), politicians would be coming to us in droves, the media would be paying attention to us, people would listen to us.  Wouldn't that be nice?

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 18, 2006, 08:30:11 AM
The analogy about the gay movement was used only to point out that they got out and forced the public to recognize them for who they are.  The same could be said about many minority groups.  They go out and march, they put faces and voices in the media, they refuse to be swept aside.  And the general public was educated.  Never did I intend to imply gays and transsexuals are similar in the gender/sexual orientation department. 

I understand what you're saying and that works for you.  But when its all over with for me, I just want a normal female life. I want to be loved, accepted, etc for being a girl; not for being TS.

Its not that I'm trying to hide from being TS; rather, its how I got to that point, not who I am.

Quote from: Refugee on November 18, 2006, 09:02:36 AM
I understand what you're saying and that works for you.  But when its all over with for me, I just want a normal female life. I want to be loved, accepted, etc for being a girl; not for being TS.

I want that too.  I'd love to have that!  But I just don't think it's going to happen.  And I dread the image of going through the rest of my life battling my male markers.  How does my voice sound?  Do my broad shoulders give me away?  Do people notice I have no hips? 

More and more the general public is getting educated on how to spot a genetic male in female garb.  And it will become harder and harder to pass.  Unless you begin HRT at or before puberty, only someone with genetics predisposed to feminine appearance will be able to pass and therefore be accepted as a female.  For me that time is long gone and I don't have the genetics.  So education seems the only real option.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 18, 2006, 09:31:49 AM

Quote from: Refugee on November 18, 2006, 09:02:36 AM
I understand what you're saying and that works for you.  But when its all over with for me, I just want a normal female life. I want to be loved, accepted, etc for being a girl; not for being TS.

I want that too.  I'd love to have that!  But I just don't think it's going to happen.  And I dread the image of going through the rest of my life battling my male markers.  How does my voice sound?  Do my broad shoulders give me away?  Do people notice I have no hips? 

Julie

Natal females have...

Deep Voices
Broad Shoulders
No Hips

For the record, my mom has no butt.

Will I ever pass as a super model?  Probably not, though I am tall enough.   :P  As long as I'm not looking like I'm part of the next NFL draft, I'm ok with whatever the gods of HRT, FFS and GRS give me.

I am tagging along through (in reference to the gender community-representation-numbers) this and i thought someone had tried this somewhere here, is there a way to even estimate ts/tg/is births a year based on statistics, then natural and suicidal deaths going back like 100 years for approximate age?
ummmmmm oh boy food is my specialty along with some other tantilizing things but geometric physics and math.. Not me? ugghhhh.................
It would be great if there was someone who could estimate this but what stats is there to go on?????
Sorry this is off the original post line but i thought i'd say it anyway, me the bratty girl buddinski!
Julie i did not go back and check the post you're more than welcome to come over! i think i have enough vodka and dogs to keep anyone comfy!  I only had a few stiff ones to set the mood!  I do not like to get too crashed up, something to do with control?  I'm weird!  :P

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 18, 2006, 09:31:49 AM

Quote from: Refugee on November 18, 2006, 09:02:36 AM
I understand what you're saying and that works for you.  But when its all over with for me, I just want a normal female life. I want to be loved, accepted, etc for being a girl; not for being TS.

I want that too.  I'd love to have that!  But I just don't think it's going to happen.  And I dread the image of going through the rest of my life battling my male markers.  How does my voice sound?  Do my broad shoulders give me away?  Do people notice I have no hips? 

More and more the general public is getting educated on how to spot a genetic male in female garb.  And it will become harder and harder to pass.  Unless you begin HRT at or before puberty, only someone with genetics predisposed to feminine appearance will be able to pass and therefore be accepted as a female.  For me that time is long gone and I don't have the genetics.  So education seems the only real option.

Julie

  Julie you might as well stop here and save yourself a MAJOR headache as all your doing is beating it against a BRICK WALL. Why so many get the notion that once they've had Hormones,SRS and perhaps FFS they are suddenly a genetic female is beyond me. The very notion of which only RE-Enforces the idea that Born a Male Always a Male. Maybe its a ego thing I don't know :(

Byee,
  Brina

Oh man i'm gonna get dowsed for this post (please... be gentle)
welp welp..............

QuoteWhy so many get the notion that once they've had Hormones,SRS and perhaps FFS they are suddenly a genetic female is beyond me.

EXACTLY.... not my point not to anyone but myself, in another post there was a statement about the 99% cure for ts was to transition, i do not completely agree with that?
I may be one who have set my heights and expectations too high to even reach or try for but i say it a lot there is nothing surgically, genetically, hormonally that modern medicine can do to make me the real natural girl i should of been born!  Loud cry and scream !!?#?#>!>*>!
I curse this earth, i curse my birth, i curse the exact nuerological brainwave misfiring if that is what happened to have caused this to me!
I curse the moon and i curse the sun!  i live a curse!  Its like being a werewolf or something!
course in one of the silver bullet movies the girl werewolf was sort of hot in a gruesome kind of way..
That's all
I curse you all with love and kisses now!
ricki

Quote from: brina on November 18, 2006, 05:52:23 PM
  Julie you might as well stop here and save yourself a MAJOR headache as all your doing is beating it against a BRICK WALL. Why so many get the notion that once they've had Hormones,SRS and perhaps FFS they are suddenly a genetic female is beyond me. The very notion of which only RE-Enforces the idea that Born a Male Always a Male. Maybe its a ego thing I don't know :(

Byee,
  Brina

Brina, I've never thought HRT, FFS or SRS will turn me into a woman.  In fact I thought I'd never transition because I'd never pass.  For over 50 years I prayed something would happen and make me female.  Guess what?

When I decided to transition it was because I felt I could live with whatever society had in store for me.  Being true to myself was more important than being totally passable.  I think self acceptance played a big part in that decision.

As far as educating the public I feel it's something that needs to continue, hopefully on a larger scale.  But it can only be done by outing yourself and getting in the public light.  I often wonder if there will come a time when we are accepted for who we are.  If that time does come will we still feel the need to pass as the opposite sex?  As I see it, the whole concept of passing is based on the belief there are only two genders and no grey area in between.  If we were content to live openly in the grey area we wouldn't feel the need to pass as the opposite sex.  Only through education will the general public recognize there is a grey area.

Julie

Quote from: brina on November 18, 2006, 05:52:23 PM
Why so many get the notion that once they've had Hormones,SRS and perhaps FFS they are suddenly a genetic female is beyond me. The very notion of which only RE-Enforces the idea that Born a Male Always a Male. Maybe its a ego thing I don't know :(

Whoa.  This argument does not follow.  I may not be a genetic female but I'm a woman nevertheless.  Just because my path to
womanhood involved hormones, SRS, and FFS doesn't make me any less of a woman.  What?  You want me to identify as a ->-bleeped-<-,
or an ersatz woman, or some inferior derivation of female?  Nope, not gonna do it and it has nothing to do with ego.  I may not
be perfect but I'm a woman and the idea that this somehow re-enforces the idea that "born male always a male" is OFFENSIVE.

Dawn

Tink, I think you just negated my stinkin' thinkin'!  Thank you!

I have just realized I've been buying into the same type of thing that I told myself I wouldn't buy into, that in this society there is only male and female and nothing in between.  While that reference was made regarding my physical state, I also applied it to my mental state and that simply isn't true.  My inner personality says, and has always said, I am female.  But with the brainwashing I have endured I look in the mirror and say, "You're not a female!"  While that may be true physically, it's not true mentally.  If it were I'd never go through all I have and all I will to transition.  I just got all caught up in society's version of what a female is and couldn't see it.

Thank you for the wake-up call Sweetie!

BTW, I scored a 118 on the passing test (http://transwoman.tripod.com/quiz.htm) which translates to passing with some of the people some of the time.  I guess I need to study more.  ;)

Julie

QuoteI often wonder if there will come a time when we are accepted for who we are.  If that time does come will we still feel the need to pass as the opposite sex?  As I see it, the whole concept of passing is based on the belief there are only two genders and no grey area in between.  If we were content to live openly in the grey area we wouldn't feel the need to pass as the opposite sex.  Only through education will the general public recognize there is a grey area.

Even in a perfect world with total acceptance of all expressions of gender, there will be some of us who who need to transition fully and pass as the opposite gender. I think it's different for everyone. For me, that gray area between genders is where I live, it's who I truly am.

I believe that living in stealth can be very damaging to the psyche, that said, it's a personal choice for each person to make. As much as I'd like to be, I'm not out to everyone in my daily life because it can also be dangerous and even life threatening to live completely openly, especially if your presentation is ambiguous or in between.

zythyra

Hiee,

  My earlier post was meant to Imply that we all accept ourselves as being mentally/emotionally FEMALE with incongruant physical bodies. The point is that no matter what we do to our bodies not one M->F will EVER be genetically Female plain and simple. We are simply a different type of Female ie
Julies's referal to the gray area. Until society at large see's us as being FEMALE albeit slightly different then a genetic female then I seriously doubt they will EVER be Understanding and Accepting of us as being 'REAL' woman. That being said then all that does is perpetuate the DEEP STEALTH menality. Until the NORM of transitoning becomes pre-puberecent then things will not change and even then while one may pass much easier that dark cloud will hang over oneself. Personally I'd much rather live in an accepting society of what I am rather then having to hide natures screw up.

Byee,
  Brina

Quote from: brina on November 19, 2006, 01:42:33 PM
Hiee,

  My earlier post was meant to Imply that we all accept ourselves as being mentally/emotionally FEMALE with incongruant physical bodies. The point is that no matter what we do to our bodies not one M->F will EVER be genetically Female plain and simple. We are simply a different type of Female ie
Julies's referal to the gray area. Until society at large see's us as being FEMALE albeit slightly different then a genetic female then I seriously doubt they will EVER be Understanding and Accepting of us as being 'REAL' woman. That being said then all that does is perpetuate the DEEP STEALTH menality. Until the NORM of transitoning becomes pre-puberecent then things will not change and even then while one may pass much easier that dark cloud will hang over oneself. Personally I'd much rather live in an accepting society of what I am rather then having to hide natures screw up.

I disagree with the label "different type of female".  Female is female, for better or worse when we're treated as female in our every day lives, whether its disrimination or by some one who was raised with manners, they're not seeing us as a "different type of female", just female.

As for pre-pubescent transition, I think its a mine field we'll never successfully naviagte.  Countless studies on children with cross gender behavior have shown that the majority of them do NOT grow up to be TS.  In fact, most of them abandon their cross gender behavior as adults or even later on in child hood.

I'm all in support of letting a child express themselves as they feel appropriate and its been nice to see more and more of society supporting children with crossgender behaviors, presentations.  Here is my fear, imagine a boy is allowed to enroll in first grade as a girl, its clear to everyone, including himself that that is his true sense of who he is.  Fast forward a couple years, what do we do when that same girl has been living for 5 years as a girl, has been socialized that way and is known only that way and suddenly decides that she's interested in being a boy again.  How does the child actually transition BACK to being a boy?  Even worse, what if her parents were successful in getting their child GRS already.  Then what?

I agree the system is imperfect and we're still learning, but gender identity is so fluid in childhood that I'm not sure its worth the risk to allow full transition any earlier then it is currently - 16 appears to be the minimum age for GRS.

Hiee Refugee,

  Like it or not no matter what you do your chormosones will not be altered. In that respect we ARE slightly different and I personally believe that in order to be fully accepted that will have to be acknowledged. If I'm not mistaken then puberty generally starts at about the begining of the teen years or slightly before hand. Basically at the time that the hormonal changes begin to take place is the idea I was attempting to get accross. For M->F's then the blocking of testosterone at least until the age of concensus is reached where the individual can decide for themselves whether or not they wish to transition and begin taking female hormones and continue blocking T or even having the organs responsible for its primary production removed.

Byee,
  Brina

conscienscious note.. Julie and any others that do.. do not stop praying  or asking.. Who knows?  Miracles happen every day right????
I still do!  Even if the boss man will not give me what i want :P
Peace and love!
Ricki

Lets stay on topic.

Steph

Quote from: zythyra on November 19, 2006, 09:45:16 AM

QuoteI believe that living in stealth can be very damaging to the psyche

How so? I fail to see why when years of pre-transition depression is often far more damaging. Personally, I've experienced it as empowering.

Am I detecting a certain level of inverse snobbery?

Quote from: Stormy Weather on November 19, 2006, 10:41:23 PM

Quote from: zythyra on November 19, 2006, 09:45:16 AM

QuoteI believe that living in stealth can be very damaging to the psyche

How so? I fail to see why when years of pre-transition depression is often far more damaging. Personally, I've experienced it as empowering.

Personally, living in stealth hasn't been damaging for me in any way either.  I have been doing it for many years now and successfully so BTW.   Actually, it wasn't until I came in contact with the TG community again that someone reminded me that I'd not been born female, and that, I really found to be damaging to my psyche.


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 19, 2006, 10:52:27 PM

Quote from: Stormy Weather on November 19, 2006, 10:41:23 PM

Quote from: zythyra on November 19, 2006, 09:45:16 AM

QuoteI believe that living in stealth can be very damaging to the psyche

How so? I fail to see why when years of pre-transition depression is often far more damaging. Personally, I've experienced it as empowering.

Personally, living in stealth hasn't been damaging for me in any way either.  I have been doing do it for many years now and successfully so BTW.   Actually, it wasn't until I came in contact with the TG community again that someone reminded me that I'd not been born female, and that, I really found to be damaging to my psyche.


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Well, it can give you a headache, like when being with GGs and the conversation turns to growing up, having your first period, things like that, how do you improv that? I was talking to a GG about boyfriends and sex (this younger woman had metioned she had gone out with this guy a dozen times without doing it) I mentioned well, you do have to worry about geting pregnant...unlike myself...uh, since I am post-menopausal!!!

I guess the later one transitions the harder it is to re-invent your old life. I mean, in my case, the last real LTR I was in was with my wife. I guess I could just call her my-ex, which I do, come to think of it.

But I am in real trouble if we start talking about high school since I went to an all-boys school.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 19, 2006, 11:42:46 PM
Well, it can give you a headache, like when being with GGs and the conversation turns to growing up, having your first period, things like that, how do you improv that?

Heh-heh. I'm 43 years old. I have conversations with my female friends about work, colleagues and friends, the industry I work in, art, music, etc... things aren't a pyjama party any more. ;)

I honestly can't recall a time when conversations like that ever happened. Now when the conversation turns to having children, that's a different matter and is usually batted away by saying I can't have children. That usually shuts people up. ;D

 I think it's hard to argue that if everyone of us, every person with a gender identity issue, was out to everyone they knew, openly lived life in the way that feels most natural, that society would accept us more readily.  That discrimination against us would decrease dramatically.  That the real numbers, how many of us there really are, would get people to sit up and take notice.  That we'd even have some clout with politicians.  Overall, this would help each and every one of us.  It's happened with other minorities again and again.  And yes, we are a minority.

This subject would be moot:

  * If each and every one of us could physically transition and undetectably integrate into society.
  * If each and every one of us could have our vital records permanently changed to a point where even the deepest search wouldn't uncover our past.
  * If those who knew us before transition would forever see us as our true selves and forget we were ever born in a different gender. 

But that is a dream and will never happen.

The percentage of MTF TSs who can pass completely is minuscule.  Last night I sat in a room with almost 20 transsexuals.  In that group maybe one was totally passable.  Many would get clocked in a minute.  They will never enjoy a life free of discrimination and prejudice unless society changes its attitude towards us.  We can't change our bodies but we can change society's thinking.

At a personal level coming out can be devastating.  At a personal level being able to live in stealth can be a dream come true and make your life so much easier.  I've experienced much of the former.  I hope to be able to choose the latter someday.  That's a dream almost all of us share.  But it's still a dream and for many will always be one.

If we are ever to be recognized, if we ever expect to gain acceptance, if we ever want to be treated with dignity, society has to know how many of us there really are.  Society has to know who we really are.  Society has to know drag queens, sexual orientation or deviant behavior do not describe us.  Society has to know we are average everyday people who just want to live a life of peace and happiness.  And if you open your minds and get to know us, you may have found a great friend in life.  They will never know any of this if we don't educate them.  They will never want to be educated if they think there's not enough of us to bother with, if they think they can ignore us.  They will never know how many of us there are if we live in fear or shame. 

And as long as we fear discovery, we will be sending society the message they are right, there really is something wrong with us.

Julie

PS:  I want to reiterate, my views on this are not intended to get those living in stealth to come out.  I'm not even saying I can be the one to stand before a crowd and rally the masses and get them to listen.  But ideas that took hold and changed society started small and grew, and by growing, gained acceptance.

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 20, 2006, 07:06:29 AM
 
The percentage of MTF TSs who can pass completely is minuscule.  Last night I sat in a room with almost 20 transsexuals.  In that group maybe one was totally passable.  Many would get clocked in a minute.  They will never enjoy a life free of discrimination and prejudice unless society changes its attitude towards us.  We can't change our bodies but we can change society's thinking.

In my experiences, often times large groups of TSs in the same room only exist at support group meetings and they're typically older.  I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment, but I think your logic is flawed.  Older TSs don't pass as well, though FFS can work miracles, and most passing TSs, in my experience, don't go to support group meetings.

QuoteHow so? I fail to see why when years of pre-transition depression is often far more damaging. Personally, I've experienced it as empowering.

Am I detecting a certain level of inverse snobbery?

Stormy Weather, I'm sorry if my my comment came off as snobby, not at all meant in that way. Later in the day after I posted, I thought that what I should've said was that I believe that living in stealth was/is very damaging to MY psyche. I'm really only speaking for myself, not anyone else... For me, the more openly I can live my life and not feel as though I am hiding something, the better. And yes, the years of  depression have also been very damaging to the spirit.

zythyra

Though the topic is stealth, I do see a recurring theme that seems to be to be a call for gender activism.  I don't intend to be a gender activist, to the extent that I can pass I intend to.  I intend to live my life as who I am, a woman - no more, no less.  I also accept the fact that I can't completely hide from my upbringing, nor would I want to.  The loss of family and friends would be too great to bear.

I don't intend to wear a sign proclaiming my past either.

Personally, I practice "don't ask, don't tell" stealth.  Basically that means if somebody reads me then they do.  If they ask me about it, I don't show shame, nor do I deny it.  I make little effort to conceal my past and typically talk freely about it in gender-neutral terms.  I don't hide my baby pictures or stuff with my old name on it around the house.  However, I don't make it a point to be a badge-wearing out and proud transsexual who refuses to proclaim she is a woman.  To me, that's like waving a red flag in front of a bull.

Melissa

Quote from: Refugee on November 20, 2006, 08:35:48 AM
In my experiences, often times large groups of TSs in the same room only exist at support group meetings and they're typically older.  I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment, but I think your logic is flawed.  Older TSs don't pass as well, though FFS can work miracles, and most passing TSs, in my experience, don't go to support group meetings.

I have been to meetings with TSs ranging in age from their early 30s to early 60s.  But you are right, passable TSs don't attend meetings like that because they don't have to deal with the prejudice non-passable TSs have to.  But if they became active and open about their transsexualism society would see we aren't all tall linebackers with big hands, deep voices and big feet.  That would help the image immensely.

Quote from: Refugee on November 20, 2006, 09:07:26 AM
Though the topic is stealth, I do see a recurring theme that seems to be to be a call for gender activism. 

Actually, the topic is about stealth hurting us or not.  By that I meant if we live in such a way as to hide the fact we are trans, does that hurt the image, level of acceptance and/or understanding of transsexuals and who we really are?  If it does then activism would be a logical avenue to pursue.

Julie

Quote from: Melissa on November 20, 2006, 12:17:04 PM
Personally, I practice "don't ask, don't tell" stealth.  Basically that means if somebody reads me then they do.  If they ask me about it, I don't show shame, nor do I deny it.  I make little effort to conceal my past and typically talk freely about it in gender-neutral terms.  I don't hide my baby pictures or stuff with my old name on it around the house.  However, I don't make it a point to be a badge-wearing out and proud transsexual who refuses to proclaim she is a woman.  To me, that's like waving a red flag in front of a bull.

Melissa

I concur except that to some, it's none of their business i.e. someone at work you hardly know. I can't imagine anyone would ask but if they did, I would probably look at them like they are crazy and ask if they are trans.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 20, 2006, 12:58:28 PM
I concur except that to some, it's none of their business i.e. someone at work you hardly know. I can't imagine anyone would ask but if they did, I would probably look at them like they are crazy and ask if they are trans.

That works.  You don't have to say you are, but the trick is to avoid lying.  For instance, I have this one friend who has no idea about my past.  I have talked about my divorce with her and she is certain I am divorcing a guy.  I just never bothered to correct her, nor do I perpetuate it by ever referring to my ex as a male.

Melissa

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 20, 2006, 12:37:04 PM

I have been to meetings with TSs ranging in age from their early 30s to early 60s.  But you are right, passable TSs don't attend meetings like that because they don't have to deal with the prejudice non-passable TSs have to.  But if they became active and open about their transsexualism society would see we aren't all tall linebackers with big hands, deep voices and big feet.  That would help the image immensely.

You can't do anything about your feet or hands, but I don't think the average person looks at someone and thinks "Oh big hands/feet, yep its a trannie"  without something else, like a deep voice, suggesting it in the first place.

Friends of my mom have deep voices, large feet/hands and you could argue are built like linebackers.  IMHO, too many people fixate on unfixable things, like hands/feet, rather then what they can fix, like voice, mannerisms, etc, when they don't pass.  Why?  I don't know.

What surprises me is that even being 6'3" in heels, I still get nothing but ma'am, even from the little Asian women. (and that wasn't the case before FFS) Much of it is confidence though. I know I look like a large female. It is unquestionable.

On the subject of being ma'amed, I came to a realization a while ago.  I rarely got ma'amed, yet I seemed to pass with no problem.  The reason for this is women my age don't like to be addressed as "ma'am".  It makes them feel old.  I also didn't get "miss"ed that often either.  I mean if I look at my face, placing an age on it is kind of hard to do since I tend to look a bit different than the typical woman.  Therefore out of courtesy storeclerks would not say either "miss" or "ma'am" since I seemed a bit too old for miss and a bit too young for ma'am. :P

Melissa

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 20, 2006, 07:06:29 AM
  

we will be sending society the message they are right, there really is something wrong with us.

Julie

By not being out, I will be enforcing the fact that there is nothing wrong with me, for I view transsexualism as an illness, a birth defect if you will,  which I've had it corrected.  Society does not need to know about my medical history or the surgeries I have had to correct my body since these experiences are mine alone and no one else's business.  Just my thoughts.


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Tink, when that little girl clocked you and asked if you were a boy, your response was absolutely beautiful.  She walked away with a life lesson she may never forget.  It's okay to be born a boy then blossom into a girl. 

You came out.  You taught someone it's okay to be different.  You gave a life lesson that may carry on forever.  You should be proud of that.

Julie

Hiee,

I was writting something else but have decided to delete it and start again so not to ruffle any feathers. I am a skilled blue collar worker. From my vantage point Transexuals are a terribly divided and disorganized lot. As long as we remain as such then soceity will be able to walk on us and treat us with utter disdain. I am a Transwoman or if you prefer a woman with a transexual past. I am deeply saddened by the fact that most average people would see me as a DQ or CD or worse some type of sexual deviant rather than as a nuturing woman. I think we need to develope or OWN group one that is seperate from the Gays/Lesbians as well as the Transgender. We would likely be well served by maintaining an association with the above groups, BUT, we should speak for OURSELVES.
In so doing over time society will learn what we are and I believe come to accept us fully as woman albeit not Genetic. It will take courage as organized events will have to take place so that we may gain our moments in the media spotlight in order to be heard. There will always be those who say NAY to this type of thinking as their lives at the moment are ok, but when the tables turn they will only so gladly take what has been so heroically fought for. If sisterhood is not about looking out for your kin then what is it about? Just my thoughts on the issue.

Byee,
  Brina

Like some of you, I don't see a parallel between gays coming out and TS's coming out.  The biggest problem, in my opinion, is that we go through a PHYSICAL CHANGE and gays don't have to.  When we come out, people tend to look at our faces and bodies more critically.  When you find out someone is gay, do you stare at their bodies?  Of course not.  In the M2F world, medical technology has gotten us close but it's not perfection.  Despite spending big bucks with facial reconstruction guys like Dr. Osterhaut, a lot of us STILL carry physical baggage from our male pasts be it a lower voice, broader shoulders, a rounder middle, a lack of large hips, or stereotypically female hair atop our heads.  For years, as an example, I wore wigs.  I hated it - it was very uncomfortable for me.  And here I was transitioning from male to female to FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE.  What irony!  I finally got some hair transplants.  I'll, unfortunately, never have a stereotypical women's hair but, as I get older, I notice that some genetic women are gradually losing their hair, and, in their world, I'm blending in!

If being "out" is very important, what can be done for the many (perhaps a majority) of the TS's who cannot afford expensive doctors?  If they, for the most part, pass, why suggest that they traumatize their lives and "come out" for the sake of the group?  There IS no perfect solution.  The best that can be done, as has been suggested, is to leave coming out to those who feel comfortable with that.  As a post op, I will probably always be a "Susaner" for our cause still has a place in my heart.  I will help when I can and, in my personal life, will come out only to those I choose.  Yes, people can discover my past but, as Doris Day said, "what will be, will be."

Teri Anne

Quote from: brina on November 20, 2006, 08:50:13 PM

In so doing over time society will learn what we are and I believe come to accept us fully as woman albeit not Genetic.

I think the hair we're splitting is about self-acceptance.  I accept myself as a woman and intend to live my life in the same regard all women live their lives in.  That I had to undergo considerable time, energy and money to reach the same point most women get to as a birthright is water under the bridge and is only between me and the husband I have to explain the reasons why I can't bear children to.

If you want to bear the torch, demand that insurance companies cover the multiple doctor's visits and medical procedures no differently then any other recognized birth defect.  Fight to make transition more accesible to people of lesser means.  No one should have to wait until they can afford it to "be" the gender they are.

Quote from: Refugee on November 20, 2006, 08:35:48 AM
...and most passing TSs, in my experience, don't go to support group meetings.

Exactly.

Quote from: brina on November 20, 2006, 08:50:13 PM
Hiee,

I was writting something else but have decided to delete it and start again so not to ruffle any feathers. I am a skilled blue collar worker. From my vantage point Transexuals are a terribly divided and disorganized lot. As long as we remain as such then soceity will be able to walk on us and treat us with utter disdain. I am a Transwoman or if you prefer a woman with a transexual past. I am deeply saddened by the fact that most average people would see me as a DQ or CD or worse some type of sexual deviant rather than as a nuturing woman. I think we need to develope or OWN group one that is seperate from the Gays/Lesbians as well as the Transgender. We would likely be well served by maintaining an association with the above groups, BUT, we should speak for OURSELVES.
In so doing over time society will learn what we are and I believe come to accept us fully as woman albeit not Genetic. It will take courage as organized events will have to take place so that we may gain our moments in the media spotlight in order to be heard. There will always be those who say NAY to this type of thinking as their lives at the moment are ok, but when the tables turn they will only so gladly take what has been so heroically fought for. If sisterhood is not about looking out for your kin then what is it about? Just my thoughts on the issue.

Byee,
  Brina

Go for it hon, we need folks with the courage of their convictions, however I respectfully disagree.  The very nature of transsexuals is our biggest weakness and our ultimate down fall.  It matters not what other people think, and I find myself agreeing with Teri Anne

QuoteIf they, for the most part, pass, why suggest that they traumatize their lives and "come out" for the sake of the group?  There IS no perfect solution.  The best that can be done, as has been suggested, is to leave coming out to those who feel comfortable with that.

Some say that we "Owe it to the community that supported us to give back after we transition" and to be honest I think that most TS do that, and one need only to look at sites such as Susan's to see that in action.  One should remember that some are not in a position to do more than that.  For example I live in a fairly large city 120,000+ and as far as I know I am the only TS in the city.  Notice I said as far as I know...  I'm not about to place ads in newspapers etc. to see if there are other TS out there who would like to get together and form a group to spearhead an action plan for TS rights.  It would be naive of me to think that I was the only TS person in this city, as there are undoubtedly others, who like me are living their lives as normally as possible, functioning as normally as one could expect.  It would be interesting to see what your plan is as far as the following is concerned

QuoteIt will take courage as organized events will have to take place so that we may gain our moments in the media spotlight in order to be heard.

.

Don't get me wrong I fully support anyone who wants to lead our cause and fight for our rights, I've been doing that here in Kingston, and in Ontario for many years now, I just prefer to do it from behind closed doors.

Steph

Quote from: Refugee on November 21, 2006, 05:20:00 AM
I think the hair we're splitting is about self-acceptance...

If you want to bear the torch, demand that insurance companies cover the multiple doctor's visits and medical procedures no differently then any other recognized birth defect.  Fight to make transition more accesible to people of lesser means.  No one should have to wait until they can afford it to "be" the gender they are.

I'll add my $.02 (again) and say it's been a very interesting and informative thread. Thanks.

I'll say to me it's not really about self-acceptance, that's what's usually resolved with therapy, hormones and the initial fulltime living experience, but it's about what many posts have touched on, social and public acceptance. I don't think any of us don't accept we're (trans)women, and you can debate the prefix till the cows come home, to me, it's about going out the front door. It's 90+% of my self-doubt.

This is where I'm learning to watch women and discover I don't have to fit into the range of stereotypical transwomen, the rules many seem to insist is "normal" (eg. makeup, clothes, shopping, etc.), but the range of natal women and just be myself somewhere in their range. I know I won't fit into men's view of "normal" women, but then I know most women don't either, so why try?

The thoughts about support groups are interesting. I rarely go to any, much to the chagrin of my therapist who's always pushing me to "get support", and it's why I don't go. It's the the support I need but the personal confidence in the world. Sitting in a support group won't necessarily help you walk down the street or sitting in a cafe. That's the goal in my transistion, to get by in life doing what I want, and if occasionally someone ask, "Excuse me, can I ask...?", then so be it.

I agree with the point that maybe the activism shouldn't be so much about acceptance, although it's important for work and other areas where discrimination exists, but about health care coverage. This is where we can all stand up as a community with HBIGDA or its reincarnation to push for easier access and affordable coverage. I think this is where all the stealth transwomen can really help by telling their stories, not just for a positive role model but for showing why we need affordable health care, to be just one of the women in the world.

And now back to your regular programming.

Thanks, Susan.

Self acceptance isn't going to stop the funny looks, the discrimination, the prejudice or the attacks.  HRT alone isn't going to make the majority of us passable.  Many MTF TSs remain in the closet for decades, and some never come out, because they feel they'll never pass.  How many have taken their own lives because they think they will never be able to live their life as a woman?  A more accepting society would make a world of difference and allow them to be themselves without all the discrimination, prejudice and feelings of hopelessness.

Living in completely stealth doesn't hurt us as a group, but it certainly doesn't help us.  By completely I mean there's no contact with the TG world whatsoever.  No meetings, no forum participation, you live a life completely separated from the TG world.  The only person who is helped by that is the individual.  I'm not being critical, I'm just stating fact as I see it.

I came here in need.  I needed to know there was other girls who were struggling with the same thing I am.  I needed to know there were girls who have overcome those things I struggle with.  I needed to know there is hope for a happy life.  Many of those who have helped me are living in stealth, but they haven't forgotten how tough a road it was getting there and they are giving back.  And I have been lucky to have gained from their contribution.  That is what makes for a strong community.

My Internet experience began at a CD forum.  Almost all the girls there were totally closeted.  But they still helped me.  And when I had resolved many of my issues, I helped those coming in.  When I found myself unable to get the answers to questions I had (because I was a TS in a CD forum) I came here and the process started all over.  But I still go back there and do whatever I can to help them.

In a sense, when I'm being me, I'm somewhat in stealth.  I don't go advertising I'm TS or dress in a way that makes it obvious.  That serves no purpose other than to make us look bad.  But if I'm clocked and someone says something, I won't deny I'm TS.  Right now the beard alone outs me by the end of the day so I would come across as a liar to the person who clocked me.  But I will respond with dignity and make sure my response gives that person something positive to think about.

I agree with Brina on many points.  We do need a better voice.  We've been riding the tailcoats of the gay/lesbian movement and many of them don't want us.  They feel the things they are fighting for will be harder to get passed if we are included because society isn't ready to accept cross-gender expression.  And they are right!  That means we need to get out there and educate the public as to what we are really all about.  I know several very passable women who are doing that and they are usually greeted very well. 

Beautiful transsexuals are our best weapon in changing the negative stigma the sensationalized media has created.  Bill O'Reilly chose to feature a TS activist but picked someone who could easily play a defensive lineman.  I know that was done intentionally to bolster the negative image and satisfy his own prejudice.  Had he chosen a totally passable and beautiful representative, most of his comments would have been seen as being cruel and heartless.  Our society will not tolerate cruelty to women and a beautiful TS is seen as a woman.

The problem is few passable & beautiful TSs want to out themselves because initially it could be devastating.  On the flip side being outed can be far worse.  Carolyn Cossey's outing is a perfect example of that.  The public's image of us has to be changed if we, as a group, will ever live in complete peace.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 21, 2006, 08:48:36 AM

...

Beautiful transsexuals are our best weapon in changing the negative stigma the sensationalized media has created.  Bill O'Reilly chose to feature a TS activist but picked someone who could easily play a defensive lineman.  I know that was done intentionally to bolster the negative image and satisfy his own prejudice.  Had he chosen a totally passable and beautiful representative, most of his comments would have been seen as being cruel and heartless.  Our society will not tolerate cruelty to women and a beautiful TS is seen as a woman.

The problem is few passable & beautiful TSs want to out themselves because initially it could be devastating.  On the flip side being outed can be far worse.  Carolyn Cossey's outing is a perfect example of that.  The public's image of us has to be changed if we, as a group, will ever live in complete peace.

Julie

[rant]
I'm sorry Julie but I find it the notion that my rights would be better served if I was represented by someone who is beautiful, extremely offensive,  as should any other TS Woman.  The whole idea is ludicrous, demeans us women to even think that you have to beautiful to do us any good.  You may like to be represented by the beautiful women portrayed in the Queen of the Universe Pageant but I would rather be represented by a well grounded everyday run of the mill TS person (notice I didn't mention man or woman).  Two who come to mind are Joanne Law, and our very own Leigh who needs no introduction, and again would be the first to tell you that she was standing in the wrong line when they were handing out beautiful looks.  Then Joanne who was recently honoured by our capital city Ottawa for the work she has done for the TS community here in Canada, and guess what SHE DOES NOT PASS, and she will be the first to tell you that.

i just want to reinforce to everyone here that we are are all beautiful inside and don't let anyone tell you different.  Folks need to wake up and smell the coffee.
[/rant]
Steph

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 21, 2006, 08:48:36 AM

The problem is few passable & beautiful TSs want to out themselves because initially it could be devastating.  On the flip side being outed can be far worse.  Carolyn Cossey's outing is a perfect example of that.  The public's image of us has to be changed if we, as a group, will ever live in complete peace.

I think this is a fallicy.  It assumes that all TSs retain that identity for life.  I would argue that those that can get on with the rest of their life do so at the point they're able to fit in to the rest of society regardless of whether its pre/post op.  Notice I said fit in, not blend in.

In terms of finding fault in ourseleves, as long as badly passing TSs do little to change their situation, or care little about changing and continue to "act like men in dresses" all while shouting at the world "I am a woman and I demand you accept me as nothing less" the "world" is going to continue to say "Um, no we don't".

The world is right, not us.

Quote from: Refugee on November 21, 2006, 11:37:56 AM

In terms of finding fault in ourseleves, as long as badly passing TSs do little to change their situation, or care little about changing and continue to "act like men in dresses" all while shouting at the world "I am a woman and I demand you accept me as nothing less" the "world" is going to continue to say "Um, no we don't".

The world is right, not us.

Who is to say that "badly passing TSs" are doing little to change their situation?  You assume too far too much Refugee, and where does it say that they "Have" to pass.  There goes that broad paint brush again.

I'm very saddened by recent views that serve to pigeon hole us even more that we are already are.  When a person is diagnosed with GID, Dr's don't put in brackets qualifiers like doesn't pass, passes with make-up, passes at 100 feet.  Geez if a person is diagnosed as GID then they are GID period, and deserve and equal amount of support.

Steph

I don't think we have to be beautiful to get our points across. I think I'm doing a fairly good job at meeting people on a one on one basis. I don't pass that well, but if someone were to just look at me and not study me then I do pass. I'm sure that if they got down to it then I wouldn't pass at all. I know I'm not the a beautiful woman, but I'm 57 and I think I look younger than that. I pass for the kids on my bus and some of the parents and I act like a woman my age. No, I don't hide my TS but I don't advertise it either. If someone were the ask me I would, like someone else here, say what are you talking about. If it is important, like physical or my job, of course I'm not going to lie about my TS. It will come up and maybe it is important. I just don't worry about it anymore.
  Someone here started in on the Gays. We are very different group. Just like race is a different group. Bigotry hits all of us and that is what we are fighting. We should all be treated as human beings and no one should be treated any different. We all have our prejudices with others, but when it comes down to it we can stand up for our fellow 'man', without the prejudices. I don't like to be politically correct all the time and I don't mind a little joke. We need to lighten up some.
Sheila

Quote from: Steph on November 21, 2006, 11:27:36 AM
[rant]
I'm sorry Julie but I find it the notion that my rights would be better served if I was represented by someone who is beautiful, extremely offensive,  as should any other TS Woman.  The whole idea is ludicrous, demeans us women to even think that you have to beautiful to do us any good.  You may like to be represented by the beautiful women portrayed in the Queen of the Universe Pageant but I would rather be represented by a well grounded everyday run of the mill TS person (notice I didn't mention man or woman).  Two who come to mind are Joanne Law, and our very own Leigh who needs no introduction, and again would be the first to tell you that she was standing in the wrong line when they were handing out beautiful looks.  Then Joanne who was recently honoured by our capital city Ottawa for the work she has done for the TS community here in Canada, and guess what SHE DOES NOT PASS, and she will be the first to tell you that.

i just want to reinforce to everyone here that we are are all beautiful inside and don't let anyone tell you different.  Folks need to wake up and smell the coffee.
[/rant]
Steph

Steph, I try my best to get my point across the way I intended it to be but I don't always succeed.  I apologize to anyone who took offense to what I wrote.  I never intended it to be offensive.  I just failed to explain what was in my head.  I know many people and judge them for who they are, not what they look like.  When I re-read my post I saw how I failed to say what I was thinking.  And when I tried to put in words what was in my head I just couldn't.  It's a subject that requires verbal exchange.     

Again, if I offended anyone I'm truly sorry.
 
Julie

Quote from: Steph on November 21, 2006, 11:48:55 AM

Quote from: Refugee on November 21, 2006, 11:37:56 AM

In terms of finding fault in ourseleves, as long as badly passing TSs do little to change their situation, or care little about changing and continue to "act like men in dresses" all while shouting at the world "I am a woman and I demand you accept me as nothing less" the "world" is going to continue to say "Um, no we don't".

The world is right, not us.

Who is to say that "badly passing TSs" are doing little to change their situation?  You assume too far too much Refugee, and where does it say that they "Have" to pass.  There goes that broad paint brush again.

For the fact that I wrote it early this morning after I'd just gotten off work, I don't think I was clear enough in what I was saying.  When a TS makes only a token effort to "pass" as a woman, not that I'm excluding FtMs but the thread seems to be revolving around MtFs, she has very little to be upset about when the rest of society disagrees with her. 

I know I am going to royaly piss somebody off with this post and may even get banned for it, but this is what I truly believe from experience and by listening to those that have fully transitioned and lived amongst the wolves.

Julie, I didnt take offense to what you said at all. In fact I think you are right. If anything you showed restraint in holding back trying to be careful. As long as they parade half baked unshaven MTF's that are men with vaginas claiming they are women, that does not help and only proves to the critics that they are right and that MTF TS are men trying to be women for some other reasons then what most of us claim. Having passable (dont have to be beautiful or pretty) TS women paraded around that have done everything to assume roles as women, that actually LOOK and ACT like women, not just what they have between the legs, would be positive and show that just like everything in society there are different types of TS people.

There are straight acting gays and flamers. Most gays do not like flaming queens because it draws too much negative attention to thier cause and to them as a group. Just like a badly passing TS hurt the TS cause it will draw negative attention and spread the idea that men can never be women. That is fact, and the truth. It hurts to hear it, read it, and accept it, but society is cruel. Beauty wins in this war. A pretty woman is going to get away with a lot more even with a TS history then an ugly feminized man in a dress with a vagina. There are ugly people and pretty people and there are just plain people that do well. I would hope to do well and just pass. A non passing trans is not going to help the cause. The prettier you can be, the better off things are. A woman has her beauty. I for one totaly agree with you Julie 100%.

I know how things should be but they are not. I think there are a lot of TS with thier heads buried in the sand that are able to ignore society. I dont know wether to envy that or laugh. Most people are shallow and vain and will give you the once over and decide right there within ten seconds on how to treat you. They wont get the chance to see how beautiful on the inside because they have already judged you on the outside. I've been out enfemme with others that do NOT pass and its not all roses and parades here in Texas. What may work in one geographical location does not work in others. If you dont pass down here, you will be outed and made a fool of an you better know how to fight because chances are you are going to get your butt kicked. If you pass you will be accepted and treated like a woman regardless of your past.

TS are not going to change society and its views. We are too few. In society there are men and women. Gender bending is what trannies and ->-bleeped-<-s and transvestites do and they are wildly displayed on porn sites. We cannot compete with the damage that has been done by that, nor can we fight incompetence, nor re-educate the world. The best hope we have is real women that pass that have a TS history to stand up and fight for our rights. Nobody is going to take somebody that looks bad seriously. That is just how life is.

Those that pass have fewer problems. Those that dont pass live as hermit crabs afraid of society and have a hard time getting jobs or have attitudes that damage other TS. Some have to go to meetings every month so somebody can tell them they are a good person so they dont kill themselves. Its sad and its sick and disheartening what society can do to somebody. But its their playing field and if we want to play then we have to play by their rules. Society is NOT ready for TS especially those that do not or cannot conform to what is acceptable. Having an "I dont give a sh*t attitude and "I don't care what you think, I'm a woman accept me or else" attitude is only going to make things worse.

Its up to each TS to do anything and everything they can to adjust to the opposite gender as best as they can and do without an attitude. FFS should be required before SRS in my book. Nobody looks down below. You pass from the neck up. Being a woman is way more than having a vagina. That sounds more sexual to me than gender related.

Just because somebody does pass does not obligate them to constantly out themselves when they could be getting on with their lives and being born with this condition does not obligate somebody to "give to the community".  I know I personally do not care to be known in my life as a TS activist or even a TS for that matter.  It may sound selfish, but I personally have always had big dreams and now that I have finally faced some barriers that have haunted me all my life, I wish to continue pursuing those big dreams and those dreams do NOT involve being TS, a woman, or part of the community.

When many of us come out, we wish others would just accept who we are as if it were no big deal rather than for the shock value (unless you're on Jerry Springer), yet we are constantly trying to make it a big deal out of all of this.  Many people get stuck in this gender limbo and lose focus of what they wanted to do with their lives.  Just remember that we can not change people.  Only they can change themselves.  I know we can educate people and I will leave that to the activists--people better suited to successfully actually help the cause.

One major thing we can do that will help is to just transition.  When somebody transitions, they usually come out to many people and in the process educate them.  It is not the responsibility of people who have put more into their own transitions to pull the weight of those who are not able to put as much effort/time/money/whatever into their transition.  That's like telling rich people that they need to give money to the poor because it will make the world better.  It's not going to happen.  You know what will make a difference?  Time.  As the world continues to move on and younger generations grow to be the older generations, tolerance will get better.

Shoot me down if you will, but this is my personal view on the whole matter.  I'm sorry if my view offends anybody, but I tried to word it in a way that wouldn't.  It seems this is a very hot and touchy subject at the moment though.

Melissa

Hiee,
 This is a great thread. As before the the Elite woman pass well and they are the minority on that end of the grouping. On the other end I suppose are the ones who for whatever reason simply don't pass well and they also are a minority and on the other side of the grouping. GID is GID you either are afflicted by it or NOT. The acceptance is ABOUT society accepting Transexuals as woman and NOT about Transexuals accepting themselves as woman. I would like to think that I embrace all who are transexual both the beauties and the beasts as we all suffer from the same condition. My primary interest though is for the large grouping in the middle who succeed for the most part but do get 'Read' from time to time. Society is ignorant about us and will continue to be so Until we Collectively Educate them about who we are. For those who think it is futile to try and educate then let my remind you that there was a time when people thought the earth was Flat, that man could never fly in the air and that we would never Step on the Moon to name but a few.
 As to those who have mentioned that TS's NEED to have FFS and that THEY NEED to be PRETTY I am nothing short of INSULTED by such statements. While I personally may not be pretty I think I do blend in with the woman of my age range. I suppose everyone has an EGO just some appear much Large then Others!
 My final observation is again that way to many are solely interested in their own lives and could care less about those less fortunate.
 We do live in a democracy and everyone can choose to do what they feel is appropriate for themselves.

Byee,
 Brina

Quote from: brina on November 21, 2006, 06:16:37 PM
 As to those who have mentioned that TS's NEED to have FFS and that THEY NEED to be PRETTY I am nothing short of INSULTED by such statements. While I personally may not be pretty I think I do blend in with the woman of my age range. I suppose everyone has an EGO just some appear much Large then Others!

I agree that there is way too much focus on beauty.  By focusing on the need to pass so much, some of us can lose sight about the experience of living as a woman.  I for one was concentrating way too hard on too many details at the beginning of fulltime, but have just recently (a few weeks ago) backed off and stopped trying so hard on the voice or the walk and still seem to have no problem.  The thing is, many of us don't give ourselves enough credit that we can pass because we look with blinders and only see old features we grew up considering masculine.  We need to just live and be ourselves.  I am not saying to leave the stubble and expect to pass.  However, if you want to live that way then go ahead and do so, but just don't expect others to do the footwork of gaining acceptance for you.

Melissa

Quote from: Lori on November 21, 2006, 04:13:54 PM
I know I am going to royaly piss somebody off with this post and may even get banned for it, but this is what I truly believe from experience and by listening to those that have fully transitioned and lived amongst the wolves.

Julie, I didnt take offense of it at all. In fact I think you are right. As long as they parade half baked unshaven MTF's that are men with vaginas claiming they are women, that does not help and only proves to the critics that they are right and that MTF TS are men trying to be women for some other reasons then what most of us claim. Having passable (dont have to be beautiful or pretty) TS women paraded around that have done everything to assume roles as women, that actually LOOK and ACT like women, not just what they have between the legs, would be positive and show that just like everything in society there are different types of TS people.

Yes I agree after all "everyone" who matters watches Jerry Springer and the social commentary his show provides.  Yes and you're right that news programs will parade anything to boost their ratings, they don't give a rats behind, look at the latest Fox debacle over OJ Simpson, ya right.  Why is there a need to "parade" anyone around, good bad or otherwise.  We don't need parades we need people who are willing to fight tooth and nail for the rights that everyone else enjoys as guaranteed through constitutions, Charters of Rights & Freedoms and what ever else different countries use to grant human rights.  Yes it would be nice to have the TS poster child at the fore front of our cause but I would settle on a person who looked like Dame Edna if they were able to win me those freedoms.  OH yes and lets not forget that this person could be MtF or FtM.

QuoteThere are straight acting gays and flamers. Most gays do not like flaming queens because it draws too much negative attention to thier cause and to them as a group. Just like a badly passing TS hurt the TS cause it will draw negative attention and spread the idea that men can never be women. That is fact, and the truth. It hurts to hear it, read it, and accept it, but society is cruel. Beauty wins in this war. A pretty woman is going to get away with a lot more even with a TS history then an ugly feminized man in a dress with a vagina. There are ugly people and pretty people and there are just plain people that do well. I would hope to do well and just pass. A non passing trans is not going to help the cause. The prettier you can be, the better off things are. A woman has her beauty. I for one totaly agree with you Julie 100%.

Here's an old cliche - "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder".  Here's a thought... So a TS man or woman is willing to stand amongst her peers, out themselves, risk life and limb, to agree to appear on a show like the "View" and talk about what it is like to be a TS woman, the agony and the hell that she faces knowing that even though she has been diagnosed as GID, she will have difficulty passing, if at all, her voice is too low, she is less than pretty, but she still deserves to be afforded those rights and freedoms granted to everyone else, would you not support her.  I don't see a huge line up of volunteers who are willing to go regional, national, or international with our cause ( and that includes me)

Quote
I know how things should be but they are not. I think there are a lot of TS with thier heads buried in the sand that are able to ignore society. I dont know wether to envy that or laugh. Most people are shallow and vain and will give you the once over and decide right there within ten seconds on how to treat you. They wont get the chance to see how beautiful on the inside because they have already judged you on the outside. I've been out enfemme with others that do NOT pass and its not all roses and parades here in Texas. What may work in one geographical location does not work in others. If you dont pass down here, you will be outed and made a fool of an you better know how to fight because chances are you are going to get your butt kicked. If you pass you will be accepted and treated like a woman regardless of your past.

I have yet to meet a TS who has been able to ignore society.  How is that even remotely possible, you are grossly exaggerating when you refer to LOTS, and MOST, I would agree that there are some, and several.  Being out "Enfemme", give me a break, a CD would go out "Enfemme", "if" you are TS you would go out dressed as a woman.  Oh and by the way that would happen in any location not just in Texas.

QuoteTS are not going to change society and its views. We are too few. In society there are men and women. Gender bending is what trannies and ->-bleeped-<-s and transvestites do and they are wildly displayed on porn sites. We cannot compete with the damage that has been done by that, nor can we fight incompetence, nor re-educate the world. The best hope we have is real women that pass that have a TS history to stand up and fight for our rights. Nobody is going to take somebody that looks bad seriously. That is just how life is.

"Real women that pass"?  We are talking about real women are we not?  Am I less of a woman because I don't look like those who are portrayed on that Queen of the Universe Pageant?

QuoteThose that pass have fewer problems. Those that dont pass live as hermit crabs afraid of society and have a hard time getting jobs or have attitudes that damage other TS. Some have to go to meetings every month so somebody can tell them they are a good person so they dont kill themselves. Its sad and its sick and disheartening what society can do to somebody. But its their playing field and if we want to play then we have to play by their rules. Society is NOT ready for TS especially those that do not or cannot conform to what is acceptable. Having an "I dont give a sh*t attitude and "I don't care what you think, I'm a woman accept me or else" attitude is only going to make things worse.

So we should all give up and crawl under our respective rocks and live in fear the rest of our lives.  Not way, No way.  I pass pretty well, and I'm blessed with average looks.  I live in a very conservative city.  There is a blue collar club that I frequent and I was having a great time, men would ask me to dance, and want to date etc. until someone found out my past, and the word spread like wild fire.  Guess what, I might have well been that unshaven man in a dress blah, blah...  But does that stop me going, no freakin way, there is no way that anyone is going to drive me out of my city unless it is in the back of a hurst.

Quote
Its up to each TS to do anything and everything they can to adjust to the opposite gender as best as they can and do without an attitude. FFS should be required before SRS in my book. Nobody looks down below. You pass from the neck up. Being a woman is way more than having a vagina. That sounds more sexual to me than gender related.

I'm sorry but that is a ludicrous statement, and has no bearing on being a woman and quite frankly is a typically male point of view.  I have to look like a woman before I can be treated like one.?I know several women who would be mistaken for men.

Steph
Posted on: November 21, 2006, 06:17:44 PM

---

Quote from: Refugee on November 21, 2006, 03:49:36 PM

Quote from: Steph on November 21, 2006, 11:48:55 AM

Quote from: Refugee on November 21, 2006, 11:37:56 AM

In terms of finding fault in ourseleves, as long as badly passing TSs do little to change their situation, or care little about changing and continue to "act like men in dresses" all while shouting at the world "I am a woman and I demand you accept me as nothing less" the "world" is going to continue to say "Um, no we don't".

The world is right, not us.

Who is to say that "badly passing TSs" are doing little to change their situation?  You assume too far too much Refugee, and where does it say that they "Have" to pass.  There goes that broad paint brush again.

For the fact that I wrote it early this morning after I'd just gotten off work, I don't think I was clear enough in what I was saying.  When a TS makes only a token effort to "pass" as a woman, not that I'm excluding FtMs but the thread seems to be revolving around MtFs, she has very little to be upset about when the rest of society disagrees with her. 

Beg to differ...

If that were the case then we would demand that everyone here post their pic on the site to determin if they pass or not, and there by not bring discredit to Susan's.  Who are we to judge what efforts a person is making to pass, is there a bench mark?

Yes it would be nice to have only the "Beautiful People" represent us, but one only has to look at the miss Universe Pageant to realize that if we put world peace in their hands we would be in a world of hurt.

Yes that was a stereotypical remark.

Steph

When I was a teenager thirty something years ago, I watched a "Donohue" show wherein Donohue talked briefly to a teenage M2F TS.  She was so pretty, to this day I remember Donohue gesturing towards her, asking, "Who could object to her?"  But as Steph (who I think most will agree is very pretty) pointed out, " Men would ask me to dance, and want to date etc. until someone found out my past, and the word spread like wild fire.  Guess what, I might have well been that unshaven man in a dress blah, blah..."

That has happened to me.  Before meeting male or female "dates," I suggested that "to take the tension out of things, why don't we just meet and see if we can become friends?"  After a few get-togethers, when the friendship seemed to be getting good, I'd reveal my past and they ran away (not literally, more figuratively).  I have stopped dating.  After awhile, you just long for peace.

The Jerry Springer thing (ugly white trash TG's screaming at one another) caused me much anxiety, fear and (at worst) self-loathing during my transition.  Was I as crazy as these people?  Of course, that's silly.  There are a lot of blacks who scream at one another on that show and I would hope most blacks don't worry about whether it impacts respect for their race.  Springer is obviously a gathering place for rehearsed fights and lunacy.

Regarding being "out," I remember being told once, by co-workers, that they'd heard positive-sounding gossip at other movie studios that there was a television editor who was a transsexual.  Coworkers told me about it because they knew I was the one.  I hadn't told anyone but my coworkers but, as my ex said, any talk of sexual differences spreads like wildfire through companies.  When I was working, I was actually kind of proud to know of this rumor.  To me, it showed the world how a TS can be a success, not just a joke on Springer.  Since becoming unemployed (my show was cancelled and they never found me another one), I guess I'm sad that I can no longer be that example.  My being semi-famous was thrust upon me.  I certainly didn't want it.  Anyway, as I've said, I'm moving to Washington and a new semi-retired life.

Just four friends know me up there and hopefully, as I've asked, they'll keep my sexual identity a secret.  After being in the semi-spotlight (and possible back-room-derision), I look forwards to a quiet peaceful future...

...as just another middle-aged woman.

Teri Anne

Yes - this has been a good debate with many differing views and opinions.

To me it still is a matter of choice, I choose what to do with my life, not be swayed by the majority or listen to other peoples opinions on how I am either right or wrong, in what I have done.

To have that choice, to live my wife as a woman, without having to disclose my life, is something I have worked hard at to achieve. I don't think that is wrong.

I admire poeple who wish to be activists, I admire people who wish to disclose their past and I admire very much people who have no choice in the matter and continue through transition even though society deems they do not fit into the "accepted" Female stereotype (whatever that is).

It was always my choice to be fully integrated into society, to be fully active socially, in business and in sport, dating when I could and having to face the consequences of my past (if and when they came up). So far it has not and I am happy to continue in that vain.

I was born transexxual, I will never deny that, but I have progressed through a process to be openly accepted as Female in society. To me that is what I set out to do, thats why I entered the process, thats why I went through Gender Reassignment.

I just want to be an average woman, living a happy life, not a recognised transsexual potentially living a life of discrimination.

My choice.

Buffy

The late Gianna E. Israel, author of Transgender Care and counseler of over 3,000 transwomen told me that she would mark some of her client's files "FFS required." (I wasn't one of those BTW) As far as being pretty,a lot of post-FFS women aren't pretty. But there is a certain minimum  standard of feminine presentation that needs to be attained before a transwoman can expect to successfully and "happily" live as a woman. To deny this is, simply, to be in denial.

First I would like to apologize if I have offended any of you with my convictions.  But I am a woman, and I will never get tired of repeating it over and over again.  If anyone here is willing to become an activist for transgender rights, be my guest, but please don't expect me to follow your beliefs, for all of us here mold to our lives the best way we can without asking anything from anybody. (except for advice, perhaps)

Quote from: Anne Lawrence's website
Passing As Privilege
Part Two of a Series on Transfeminism
By Jessica Xavier

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Privilege is a concept which feminists use as a tool to critically analyze societal and personal power imbalances. While the majority of transgendered and transsexual people are not feminists, most of us are nevertheless somewhat familiar with male privilege, since we are bashed so often for either retaining it (MTFs) or selling out to obtain it (FTMs). Besides male privilege, there are other traditional forms of privilege based on class and race that are important considerations for feminists and progressive lefties like me. However, the new transfeminist formulations of privilege are far more important to transgendered people, since they address the power imbalances experienced by us.

Birth privilege is being born into a physical sex that matches your internal gender identity, and possessing it allows nontranssexuals to avoid the many deleterious consequences of gender dysphoria. No matter how many surgeries we have, we can never gain birth privilege - a fact that many transsexual women seem to have difficulty accepting. Like other traditional forms of privilege, it's possessors are clueless about it, since they were (surprise) born with it. For the birth privileged, being born into bodies that don't torture them with the absurdity of inappropriate genitalia is simply a given, taken immediately for granted. Without understanding their birth privilege, the nons simply cannot understand transsexual people, a failing which produces and perpetuates a social ill only transgendered people experience - transphobia.

The lack of birth privilege is a permanent deficit that not only shapes but dominates our existence. Thus passing privilege becomes far more significant to us throughout the course of our lives. Passing privilege is passing undetected as a member of the majority - white, straight or non-transgendered. In a previous essay, I analyzed Erving Goffman's Stigma: Notes on the Management of Spoiled Identity (1963: Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ). In Goffman's dichotomy of socially stigmatized groups, those who lack passing privilege are the discredited, with obvious and unconcealable stigma. They cope with their stigma through tension management - various tactics which reduce the impact of their stigma on their interpersonal relationships. But the passing privileged are discreditable - their stigma is concealable, yet they remain vulnerable to its disclosure. Their concern is with information control - "to tell or not to tell, to let on or not let on, to lie or not to lie, and in each case, to whom, when and where."

People who cannot or chose not to conform to rigid cultural norms for their gender, as based upon their physical sex, are gender variant. While we trans people are familiar with gender variant expressions and cross gender identities, there are many other forms of gender variance exhibited by all kinds of people - regardless of their sexual or gender identities. The most common examples of gender variance are the reproductive and marriage choices of many nontransgendered women, who choose not to get married nor to have children. Another is working in a stereotypically opposite gender based occupation - like men who are nurses and women who are construction workers. There's also grooming (such as men with long hair or earrings, or women with short hair or facial hair), types of male clothing worn by women and girls, and effeminate mannerisms in men or masculine mannerisms in women. And although most of them don't realize it, gay, lesbian and bisexual people also are gender variant, because they are defying cultural norms for their sexualities in their same-gender sexual relationships. Because passing privilege explains the power imbalances between overt and covert forms of gender variance amongst the sexual minorities, it becomes equally relevant to gay, lesbian and bisexual people as well as to transgendered people. As such, it is a key component of transfeminist analysis, as important as male privilege has been to earlier waves of feminism.

With the exception of some no-ho/no-op trans people (who live full- time and are not interested in hormonal and surgical sex reassignment), obtaining the ability to pass in our chosen genders is a major focus (if not obsession) of transgendered people of both gender vectors (MTF and FTM), from part-time crossdressers to transsexuals seeking to live full- time. Passing affords all of us physical safety in public spaces, and for those of us living full-time, job security and access to the social, economic and professional pathways of the nontransgendered. Thus the vast majority of MTFs and many if not most FTMs become careful observers of those with birth privilege in their chosen genders. The observations and evaluations we make about gender roles, behaviors and especially appearances are incorporated over time into our own chosen gender expressions. Many of us consider ourselves to be experts about gender expression and passing itself. Thus passing as a member of the majority assumes a saliency in our psyches, while remaining largely unconsidered by the other sexual minorities.

However, passing privilege, like other forms of privilege, is based upon full-time living status. Thus almost all crossdressers who do not live full-time, regardless of their ability to pass as women, still have passing privilege - since they pass for the majority of their lives as straight, nontransgendered men. It's true that a small minority of crossdressers retain some overt evidence of their transgendered status (long hair, long fingernails, absence of facial and body hair, etc.). However, they are more likely to be perceived as gay, not transgendered, due to trans- ignorance amongst the nons. In this regard, most crossdressers are similar to gay and bisexual men who are straight-acting and straight-appearing. Since same-gender sex is usually not performed in public view, their gender variant behaviors are covert and episodic, and thus they too have passing privilege - they pass as heterosexual men.

Passing privilege creates a significant power imbalance in the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered community, since it allows its possessors to escape the intense societal stigmatization and marginalization associated with being queer. Those who pass as nontransgendered or straight simply do not experience as much external oppression as those who do not. The lack of passing privilege makes it far more likely for someone, regardless of their sexual identity, to fall victim to discrimination, harassment and violence. Indeed, anyone who is perceived as queer - regardless of their sexual orientation - either lacks passing privilege or has forfeited it, by choice or by an overt act.

The impact of passing privilege on the political "LGBT" movement have been painfully obvious. Because the majority of gay men and lesbians possess it, they have the luxury of dominating the movement with their gay and lesbian identity politics, which erases the sizable visible gender variance within their own communities. Gay and lesbian identity politics dumbs down the reason for their oppression to invisible acts committed mostly in the privacy of bedrooms. But who you sleep with doesn't get you into trouble - it's what you look like and how you act. One would think that visibly gender variant gay men and lesbians would be our immediate allies, but traditionally they have been almost as marginalized as trans people by their passing privileged peers. The covert and overt forms of gender variance, as manifested by the passing privileged and the visibly queer, have created deep divisions within and amongst the sexual minorities. One of the most glaring consequences is a "civil rights" movement that seeks to protect only the (already passing) privileged, with a leadership all too willing to sacrifice its community's most vulnerable members, as it panders to the genderphobia of straight legislators.

But the impact of passing privilege is felt far beyond just the LGBT political movement. Passing privilege has some unique qualities that separates it from other traditional forms of privilege which are bestowed at birth. For some transgendered and transsexual people seeking to live full-time, passing privilege can be gained through the administration of exogenous hormones, various cosmetic procedures and surgeries. However, the majority ultimately fail to obtain passing privilege, ironically prevented by their lack of birth privilege. There are simply too many physical characteristics produced by the surge of hormones during adolescence that cannot be erased by hormones and surgery in later years. Moreover, accessing these medical technologies is difficult and expensive, and usually a function of class and race privilege. Thus all transgendered people who go full-time will, at least at some point during their gender transitions, lack passing privilege. Even those who pass well enough while clothed or made-up lose their passing privilege in intimate situations - which is why many do not get routine medical check-ups, or even seek treatment for acute illnesses.

And there is an even darker side to passing privilege. Although no one talks about it, a hierarchy exists amongst transsexual women based upon it. In my own estimation, only about a third of transsexual women pass perfectly - thus allowing them to conceal their transsexual status. Passing privilege creates friction in our support groups between those with and without it. The passing privileged are usually a group's most popular members, and coveted as companions. Sadly, those who lack passing privilege are often rudely rebuffed by those who possess it when their friendship is sought. Thus passing privilege creates divisiveness even within our support groups, as it destroys solidarity and cripples our community- building efforts.

Goffman presented an interesting paradox, in that those with the ability to pass and conceal their stigma are simultaneously admired and despised by those who cannot. He also noted that the passing fortunate pay significant psychic costs, in order to continuously maintain the concealment of their stigma. Thus transsexual women living in stealth must not only remain constantly on guard, but also silently accept the nontransgendered majority's pejorative perspective of themselves when they encounter it. For example, I know one transsexual woman who must listen silently to her intensely transphobic but unknowing husband rant and rave through any talk show featuring trans people. I am amazed at how these stealthy transsexual women can suffer the emotional and spiritual consequences of living in stealth, their new lives made possible solely through their passing privilege. Surely this must be our Faustian bargain - the costly price we must pay for 'real' womanhood, that total assimilation extracts and subtracts from us.

Yet we transsexual women will still move heaven and earth to obtain the prize of passing privilege which, for many, is still sadly beyond their physical reach. There are even those of us who are post- operative and passing privileged, who nevertheless continue to undergo additional surgeries in a fruitless pursuit of that which they will never have - birth privilege. No privilege of any kind can ever erase the facts of our births - we will never be nontranssexual.

It is interesting to contrast this passionate pursuit of passing privilege by transsexual women with the attitudes of transsexual men regarding it. I estimate that 90% of transsexual men eventually gain passing privilege, but there is a painful irony here. Spending half-lives developing a queer consciousness within their lesbian communities, many transsexual men of my acquaintance are not only aware but also ambivalent about their passing privilege. Passing perfectly as nontransgendered, usually straight men, their queerness becomes erased and taken from them. They even become viewed as the oppressor (if white) or as a potential predator (if black) by their former peers. Some therefore consider their passing privilege to be a curse, echoing Jess Goldberg's lament from Stone Butch Blues:

"As far as the world's concerned, I was born the day I began to pass. I have no past, no loved ones, no memories, no me. No one really sees me or speaks to me or touches me."
The unwitting possession of privilege perpetuates the oppression caused by it. Those who are not part of the solution are not part of the problem - they are the problem itself. To own one's privilege is to take responsibility for the underlying social constructs that gave it to you in the first place. When informed consciousness is transformed into sociopolitical action, change results. But the failure of feminism and identity politics to make people aware of their privilege and to motivate them to act on it has left us with a racist, classist, sexist, homophobic and transphobic culture. The message may be correct, but its delivery simply fails to resonate with the privileged majority, who continue to be almost wholly ignorant of their privilege.

However, it's different with the transgendered passing privileged who live full-time. We know we are privileged - it becomes obvious to us when we begin to pass in our new genders. Yet that awareness has motivated only a few of us to own our privilege - and to fight transphobia as best we can. The traditional model of transition, surgery and assimilation is in effect a long struggle to obtain passing privilege, thus avoiding the stigma of transsexualism. Once obtained, most will forget they have passing privilege - while others of their own kind suffer mightily due to their lack of it. In a future essay, I will address how this failure to own our passing privilege not only perpetuates but also creates our oppression.

My aim has always been to live my life as a female, not as a transsexual.   I am sorry if reaching my goals and realizing my dreams bother some of you.

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Edit: Karen - to resize quoted text.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 21, 2006, 08:54:47 PM
The late Gianna E. Israel, author of Transgender Care and counseler of over 3,000 transwomen told me that she would mark some of her client's files "FFS required." (I wasn't one of those BTW) As far as being pretty,a lot of post-FFS women aren't pretty. But there is a certain minimum  standard of feminine presentation that needs to be attained before a transwoman can expect to successfully and "happily" live as a woman. To deny this is, simply, to be in denial.

Really...  I find it remarkable that a respected transgender care coucelor would discuss patient files with anyone.  And it matters not that you weren't one of them Harper, because at Susan's we don't judge how a person looks, in fact we don't judge our members.  And who gives a monkies that folks aren't pretty.  And I'm going to denie that I'm actually reading this kind of post on this web site.  But then it would be interesting to know what these "minimum standards" are so that I may strive for the susscess and the happiness that I need to attain to live as a woman.

Geeeeeeeeeeez.

Hey hon pass me a bottle of wine it's going to be a long night  >:(

Steph

Quote from: Melissa 90299there is a certain minimum standard of feminine presentation

Very expensive and invasive mininum standard of feminine presentation.

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

What if acceptance did not require passing?

What if it didn't matter that you were born male with a female gender tucked inside your brain?

What if you never had to worry that someone would clock you because you had a brow ridge resembling a neanderthal?

What if you would be accepted as the female gender even with a resonant baritone?

What if no one would ever burst out laughing, or stop and stare, or whisper, no matter what you looked like?

What if FFS were completely optional, because you just felt like it, not because you needed it to pass?

What if acceptance were complete, total, absolute from the moment you declared, "I don't care WHAT's stuck to my crotch!  I'm a woman!"?

What if total passing were not the only ticket for a normal-seeming life, free of harassment and those moments of sheer terror when you realize someone has found out the 'TRUTH" about you.?

Would you still hide in your new closet, and pretend to strangers that you were 'born' a natal female?

Or would you have the courage to say, when necessary, "This is how I really am. I was born with a female brain, but a male body."?

Would you then stand up and visibly pave the way for those who follow after you?

After all the hard work is done?...

Karen

Quote from: Steph on November 21, 2006, 09:18:40 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 21, 2006, 08:54:47 PM
The late Gianna E. Israel, author of Transgender Care and counseler of over 3,000 transwomen told me that she would mark some of her client's files "FFS required." (I wasn't one of those BTW) As far as being pretty,a lot of post-FFS women aren't pretty. But there is a certain minimum  standard of feminine presentation that needs to be attained before a transwoman can expect to successfully and "happily" live as a woman. To deny this is, simply, to be in denial.

Really...  I find it remarkable that a respected transgender care coucelor would discuss patient files with anyone.  And it matters not that you weren't one of them Melissa, because at Susan's we don't judge how a person looks, in fact we don't judge our members.  And who gives a monkies that folks aren't pretty.  And I'm going to denie that I'm actually reading this kind of post on this web site.  But then it would be interesting to know what these "minimum standards" are so that I may strive for the susscess and the happiness that I need to attain to live as a woman.

Geeeeeeeeeeez.

Hey hon pass me a bottle of wine it's going to be a long night  >:(

Steph

She wasn't discussing patient files, she was discussing me something along the lines of "well, if I think a patient reguires FFS to achieve success, I will mark her file FFS required before referral (to SRS) but in your case it's your call" but she did recommend that I consult Dr. Ousterhout, who recommended a scalp advance, brow lift, forehead type II, lip lift and sliding genioplasty. All of which I had done excpet the sliding genioplasty, which I am having on Dec 11th.

The reason I mentioned that she wasn't referring to me is that I was fairly passable and pretty prior to FFS, that's just a relevant fact to the conversation. FFS, even half of what he recommended, took me from borderline to 99% passable in San Francisco and 100% passable just about everywhere else. There is a saying among transwomen who come to San Francisco. "Don't be surprised if you get clocked, everybody gets clocked but nobody gives a flying ----"

I just can't describe how wonderful it is to be perceived as a female by almost everyone. I never, ever thought I could achieve deep stealth at my age but I am seeing that now as a possibilty and that is very, very exciting. Frankly, I don't understand why any transwoman would want anything less. If one wants to be an activist too, that's a choice.

I don't know why you are taking this personal, Steph. You are way beyond what I am talking about, way, way beyond but again we don't judge. However, the difference between a man in a dress and nicely presented transwoman is impossible to describe.It's like obscenity, you know it when you see it.
Posted on: November 21, 2006, 10:32:36 PM

---

Quote from: Karen on November 21, 2006, 10:16:15 PM
What if...?

No matter what anyone thinks, when I look in the mirror, I want to see a woman, I have very nearly achieved that. Maybe I am shallow but, to me, that is one of the main reasons for transitioning, to have the outside match the inside. Although ridding my body of testostrone and replacing it with the estrogen my brain and body craved since puberty has made me feel more womanly on the inside too.

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 21, 2006, 09:40:31 PM

Quote from: Melissa 90299there is a certain minimum standard of feminine presentation

Very expensive and invasive mininum standard of feminine presentation.

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

I don't know if the "minimum" standard I have in mind would require a fortune. Some things just require effort, like diet and exercise. That linebacker in a dress with SRS in the documentary could have achieved the minimum standard by getting in better shape, gosh, that male beer belly was embarassing. Ugh!

Sorry, but if you look like that, you are still a man in a dress with SRS.

Anyway, thanks for posting that article. it is very thought-provoking.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 21, 2006, 10:41:24 PM
I don't know why you are taking this personal, Steph. You are way beyond what I am talking about, way, way beyond but again we don't judge. However, the difference between a man in a dress and nicely presented transwoman is impossible to describe.It's like obscenity, you know it when you see it.

I think this is due to the fact that you are presuming:
1. Most can not pass without FFS
2. You are required to pass perfectly to live happily as female

Steph is not taking this personally, but rather taking into consideration the other member of this board.  Some here may not be perfectly passable where you are, but we don't all live in San Fransisco.  I understand that the more passable somebody is, the easier time they will have and I think you are just stating the obvious.  Some people will never pass perfectly without surgery and can't afford surgery at this time.  Since they don't meet your "minimum standard of beauty", does that mean they shouldn't transition?  Of course they should.  The way you state this is of somebody who is addressing "the unpassable" in a condescending tone and that is what is so disturbing.

Melissa
Posted on: November 21, 2006, 08:53:05 PM

---

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 21, 2006, 10:49:32 PM
I don't know if the "minimum" standard I have in mind would require a fortune. Some things just require effort, like diet and exercise. That linebacker in a dress with SRS in the documentary could have achieved the minimum standard by getting in better shape, gosh, that male beer belly was embarassing. Ugh!

You do realize there are degrees between the "linebacker" (a very, very extreme example) and a model.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 21, 2006, 10:49:32 PM
Sorry, but if you look like that, you are still a man in a dress with SRS.

First of all, I find that very offensive.  Just because someone may look like a man in a dress does not make them one.  Secondly, I have personally met Tinkerbell and she passes very well.

Melissa

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 21, 2006, 12:40:57 PM
But if I ever pass completely I hope I never go stealth.  That would be like turning my back on all those who helped me get where I am and all those who are hoping for a better life.

I agree.

If I'm ever granted the impossible miracle of actually be able to go stealth... I couldn't leave others out in the cold to die in hopeless dispair. I've been there. I'm still there at times. You people have saved my life more times than I let on, just from a "coincidental" post at the right moment, an unexpected IM just to check on me, or even seeing a new member join and begin this painful journey and remembering what it was like for me in the beginning.

I don't expect to be leading parades of TSs down main street, but if I can show that TSs are just ordinary people with an extraordinary problem, I'll do it. And not out of obligation, but rather out of *love*. I truly do love you people. I've never, ever encountered a more compassionate, unselfish, generous, and just honestly CARING group of people. I know the pain. I know the black dispair that swallows so many of us before we even TRY to solve this, drowning in hopelessness fostered by "if I can't pass, I can't do this."

Be careful. Those of you suggesting that only the pretty and passable should transition... you're handing a shotgun to the lurkers out there desperately trying to find a way out of this awful prison. Please, don't snuff out their hope. They deserve a chance at solving this as best they can. If that ruins it for the beautiful and pretty, well shame on you for even thinking that way.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 21, 2006, 10:49:32 PM
Sorry, but if you look like that, you are still a man in a dress with SRS.

Anyway, thanks for posting that article. it is very thought-provoking.

Melissa90299, the woman with the kitty is me.  I will be removing the photo in a few minutes, I just wanted to post it so that you know how I look like.
I don't think I look bad at all considering that I have never had major maxillofacial surgery, my hair line has never been adjusted, the cheeks are all mine ;D, my head is not that big, my shoulders are not that broad, my nose is not that wide, my upper lip is not that thin,  my toes are smaller....lol  lol  OMG I can't believe I am playing this game!...this is hilarious!   :D etc, etc, etc...


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

tinkerbell's first rule for living stealth:

remove photograph from avatar :P

  I probably will never transition due to health reasons but if I did I do honestly believe that I would just relocate and live as a woman and not reveal being transgender. I would stay on the transgender sites as not to forget where I came from so to speak and to help others just starting out like I am now.
  Being stealth right now is painful but I am thankful I can come here and be me. That is help enough for right now and lessens the pain.

Tinkerbell;

  I just hope that if I transition I look as much like a lady as you do. Your posting, attitude, reflections and appearance are a lady through and through. You're a sweetheart. (I'm really jealous!)
  You're a blessing!

  Tiff

Quote from: Melissa on November 21, 2006, 10:56:35 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 21, 2006, 10:41:24 PM
I don't know why you are taking this personal, Steph. You are way beyond what I am talking about, way, way beyond but again we don't judge. However, the difference between a man in a dress and nicely presented transwoman is impossible to describe.It's like obscenity, you know it when you see it.

I think this is due to the fact that you are presuming:
1. Most can not pass without FFS
2. You are required to pass perfectly to live happily as female

Steph is not taking this personally, but rather taking into consideration the other member of this board.  Some here may not be perfectly passable where you are, but we don't all live in San Fransisco.  I understand that the more passable somebody is, the easier time they will have and I think you are just stating the obvious.  Some people will never pass perfectly without surgery and can't afford surgery at this time.  Since they don't meet your "minimum standard of beauty", does that mean they shouldn't transition?  Of course they should.  The way you state this is of somebody who is addressing "the unpassable" in a condescending tone and that is what is so disturbing.

Melissa
Posted on: November 21, 2006, 08:53:05 PM

---

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 21, 2006, 10:49:32 PM
I don't know if the "minimum" standard I have in mind would require a fortune. Some things just require effort, like diet and exercise. That linebacker in a dress with SRS in the documentary could have achieved the minimum standard by getting in better shape, gosh, that male beer belly was embarassing. Ugh!

You do realize there are degrees between the "linebacker" (a very, very extreme example) and a model.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 21, 2006, 10:49:32 PM
Sorry, but if you look like that, you are still a man in a dress with SRS.

First of all, I find that very offensive.  Just because someone may look like a man in a dress does not make them one.  Secondly, I have personally met Tinkerbell and she passes very well.

Melissa

I wasn't referring to Tinkerbell, I assumed Tink passes well since she is living stealth, why would I question that. I am agreeing with the author of the article she posted. And, in effect, agreeing with her. Sorry, there are opposing views here, and I am of the view---and I had the benefit of being counseled by an experienced gender therapist and much of  my philosophy echoes hers---- and my view is that one must attain a reasonable presentation before attempting to live fulltime. Almost everyone can achieve this, if she wants it bad enough.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 21, 2006, 11:32:01 PM
my view is that one must attain a reasonable presentation before attempting to live fulltime.

And if they can't...? Then what? What if someone *knows* it just ain't gonna happen regardless of hormones or surgery? What if they can't afford either, but are dying inside?

Quote from: Kate on November 21, 2006, 11:41:29 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 21, 2006, 11:32:01 PM
my view is that one must attain a reasonable presentation before attempting to live fulltime.

And if they can't...? Then what? What if someone *knows* it just ain't gonna happen regardless of hormones or surgery? What if they can't afford either, but are dying inside?

I don't live in a what if world. I believe in a "can do" world. If you want something bad enough, you will achieve it. If you don't, you won't.

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 21, 2006, 11:52:44 PM
...just because we have chosen to live our lives in stealth doesn't mean that we will not provide our grain of rice for others to feed on.

So true. Living in stealth, for me, doesn't mean severing all ties. Only a few months ago, I helped a very young TS (who came out to me) with a whole heap of advice and info; a kickstart in the right direction.

What strikes me is the number of people who seem to be saying, 'We need these people to speak for us' without considering themselves as candidates first. I speak for no-one except myself, yet fully acknowledge the work done by others to enable me to live my life.

After re-reading this thread, I would probably describe my situation as 'almost-stealth'... stealth to the world at large, known to the people that need to know.

Quote from: Melissa on November 21, 2006, 10:56:35 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 21, 2006, 10:41:24 PM
I don't know why you are taking this personal, Steph. You are way beyond what I am talking about, way, way beyond but again we don't judge. However, the difference between a man in a dress and nicely presented transwoman is impossible to describe.It's like obscenity, you know it when you see it.

I think this is due to the fact that you are presuming:
1. Most can not pass without FFS
2. You are required to pass perfectly to live happily as female

Steph is not taking this personally, but rather taking into consideration the other member of this board.  Some here may not be perfectly passable where you are, but we don't all live in San Fransisco.  I understand that the more passable somebody is, the easier time they will have and I think you are just stating the obvious.  Some people will never pass perfectly without surgery and can't afford surgery at this time.  Since they don't meet your "minimum standard of beauty", does that mean they shouldn't transition?  Of course they should.  The way you state this is of somebody who is addressing "the unpassable" in a condescending tone and that is what is so disturbing.

Melissa

I wasn't intending to be condescending, just realistic. Sorry, I might sound a little belligerent today as I had a tiff with my boss and a lousy couple sales days and I depend on my commissions to fund my procedures.

OTOH I worked hard and sacrificed a great deal to get to where I am in such a short time so I take the view that if I can do it, anyone can. If they want it bad enough.

Case in point, there is a coal miner in W. Virginia working in guy mode to save to get FFS with Dr. Ousterhout. He wouldn't dare to try to come out without it. He knwos he could likeby be KILLED. This is reality. Heck, there is always a way. If someone is really unpassable with no hope, she could at least save up enough money to come to San Francisco where she would be accepted or, at least, tolerated.

Whew!  It's getting warm in here!

Lori, you said better than I what I was getting at.  Beauty disables society's prejudice.  Once that happens they will listen and hopefully accept what we are saying.  But that doesn't mean you have to be physically beautiful, just attractive enough as a woman to make the public SEE a woman.  That attractiveness will most likely come from both inner and outer beauty and people will see that.  And I'm not talking Miss International beauty.

I agree somewhat that people can't be changed but societal views can and when that happens people do start to come around.  The young will absorb things more easily than the old and will create new rules for society.  Look at what the baby boomers did to the US.  It's an evolutionary process that is steeped in protest.  And society listens better when the number of protesters are greater.  So if we present a positive image and let society know there are many more of us then they realize, we will eventually change the way society views us.

I truly beleive most of the estimates indicating how many TS, TG and CD people there are is very low.  The CD numbers are nothing more than a wild guess.  There are CDs who will never come out for anyone.  But if the true numbers were really known, across the board, I believe we'd gain some respect.  Ultimately that would lead to a time when living in stealth wouldn't be such a necessity for living a normal life.  I truly believe that time will come, but only if we keep ourselves in the public eye and present ourselves with the dignity and decency deserving of being called a woman.

Julie

I believe that there are a great number of TS people.  Unfortunately, I also believe that so many are incapacitated by the "condition" that they are totally screwed up. They can't bring resolution to their lives and fail miserably in our society.  And that is what the public does see.  And then there are those who are on the other end of the spectrum... those who are super achievers and are successful in anything that they do.  These have limited contact with society as they go through their real life test and then work their way back into society.

I believe that the greatest good we can do is to be successful.  It matters not which causes we champion.  It matters not if we give something or nothing back to the "community".  Those who want, can.  And they will. 

As far as a community hierachy goes.... I think it a little odd that someone views it as such.  Sure I've been through a lot, but why is my life any more important than anyone else?  It is only that experience I have to share, and I give it freely.  Why should "post-ops" have any special standing?  Is it like a lettered sheepskin?  Na... nothing so grandios. 

Cindi

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on November 22, 2006, 04:26:22 AM
I believe that the greatest good we can do is to be successful.  It matters not which causes we champion.  It matters not if we give something or nothing back to the "community".  Those who want, can.  And they will. 

I can't agree more, except I would also argue we shouldn't be silent either. Being a successful transwoman allows you to be a role model with and in your life. You don't have to be public, but don't sit by and let things just happen or get worse. You have some obligation to speak up in some way, and you can without disclosing your life, just be positive against discrimination and for human rights.

I think if there is an issue the whole community should come together to fight is health care coverage. I agree with the new direction of the HBIGDA (or its new name) to get better clarification of GID and changing coverage to mandatory for therapy, hormones (often covered now), and especially surgeries (both). This is where post-ops can voice their views without any threat of disclosure in the broader goal of better health care. And some can be role models why it's important, for successes in people and lives.

I haven't read all the posts, it's a big "Whew!?", but I'll simply add that it's my goal to simply fit into the range of women to get on with my life. I've expressed privately to some that I dislike the case some transwomen make we have to adopt the stereotype role, for makeup, clothes, shopping, and being "feminine."  How many women hate makeup, keeping up on fashion, going shopping, and on and on with "feminine" stuff?

I tell them I haven't thought about being a "fashionable" nature/landscape and street photographer wearing the latest styles with fresh makeup all the time. Who doesn't want come off a long hike not looking pretty? I tell them they're not watching real women. I'll stick with my physician and therapist's advice and just learn enough to get by (and they're sure I can with minor ffs and voice therapy).

Just my thoughts. Have a good Thanksgiving.

--Susan--

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 21, 2006, 10:41:24 PM
I don't know why you are taking this personal, Steph. ....

:) Nope I'm not taking this post or this topic personally Harper, I just get very passionate about these types of issues :)

Steph

Quote from: Steph on November 21, 2006, 07:29:14 PM

Quote
Its up to each TS to do anything and everything they can to adjust to the opposite gender as best as they can and do without an attitude. FFS should be required before SRS in my book. Nobody looks down below. You pass from the neck up. Being a woman is way more than having a vagina. That sounds more sexual to me than gender related.

I'm sorry but that is a ludicrous statement, and has no bearing on being a woman and quite frankly is a typically male point of view.  I have to look like a woman before I can be treated like one.?I know several women who would be mistaken for men.

So yet another Transgeneration reference, "You're a woman because you have the mind of a woman, not the body of one.", so yeah, being a woman is about more then just having the body of one.  The fact is that which ever side of the nature/nurture argument you fall on we were never socialized as girls growing up and for a good number of people as women in adulthood.

You can't just pop a couple pills, have a little surgery and declare yourself a woman and demand the social acceptance that comes with it.  The fact remains there are too many TSs running around with the mindset of straight, usually white, men in womens bodies.  And society looks at that and says "I don't think so".  Ugly trannies that pass, do so because fundamentally they act like women, not men.

And what do we do?  We react like men and get angry and declare that our bodies are as equal as the next woman's.It reminds me of a concept a professor once talked about, the "there ought to be a law law".  In essence, someone is wronged and they just can't believe there isn't a law that covers their particular situation hence "there ought to be a law".  Well there isn't.  Yes, everybody of every body morphology should be accepted for who they are.  Society doesn't work that way, it never has, and the reality is it never will.

Oh and throwing around "quite frankly is a typically male point of view" or something similar when someone disagrees with you is just plain childish.  So what if it is, am I not a TS if I do anything typically masculine or have a "male point of view"?

For as much breath as you're wasting screaming "don't judge me" at others, consider who's doing the most judging.

Quote from: Refugee on November 22, 2006, 10:17:10 AM

Quote from: Steph on November 21, 2006, 07:29:14 PM

Quote
Its up to each TS to do anything and everything they can to adjust to the opposite gender as best as they can and do without an attitude. FFS should be required before SRS in my book. Nobody looks down below. You pass from the neck up. Being a woman is way more than having a vagina. That sounds more sexual to me than gender related.

I'm sorry but that is a ludicrous statement, and has no bearing on being a woman and quite frankly is a typically male point of view.  I have to look like a woman before I can be treated like one.?I know several women who would be mistaken for men.

....

Oh and throwing around "quite frankly is a typically male point of view" or something similar when someone disagrees with you is just plain childish.  So what if it is, am I not a TS if I do anything typically masculine or have a "male point of view"?

For as much breath as you're wasting screaming "don't judge me" at others, consider who's doing the most judging.

I didn't "throw around" anything my words were purposely chosen for I can not agree that a person should be required to have FFS before SRS as the notion that women have to be beautiful, or something similar I find to be ludicrous and something that would have been produced by a male brain.  I think that this was tried in Germany when they tried to create the Aryan race, blond hair and blue eyes etc. etc.

You are born a woman you are not turned into one, whether you take pills, have augmentation, or whatever.

I have not been screaming at anyone, I have been commenting/replying to the words and notions that have been presented.  It is quite obvious that you think that I've been wasting my breath screaming "Don't judge me" but I can't for the life of me see where I actually did that, but then you're entitled to that opinion.  I don't believe that I have judged anyone and if anyone feels judged by my remarks they shouldn't as none were personal.

Steph

          I completely agree with Steph.  Beauty and passing do not define who is female. If that were the case transsexuals could not exist. Gender comes from within. Transsexuals do the best they can as far as looking the way they would like. There is a wide range of factors both physical and emotional that determine "passability" and everyone is not equal in those assets. Humans often suffer from weakness that can limit their ability to change and transsexuals are human. If a woman weighs 300 lbs she is not a woman? If she were she would surely loose the weight and become "beautiful" as defined by men and society in general?  I think not. Superficial people exist in all groups and I see transsexuals are no exception.


beth

Well put Beth, I agree totally with what you have said :).

Byee,
  Brina

Most 300lb women do Not have a transsexual history therefore dont have the prejudice against them for their sex or gender. Society may shun them for being obese, but not for who they are or who they are trying to represent. They still look like women, not 300lb fat men in dresses. Thats a double strike in society.

My biggest point is you dont put your worst representatives forward to represent your group, yet with transsexuality you cannot expect the ones that are living in stealth to out themselves and put their lives and carreers in danger to represent you. If they are in stealth then obviously they pass and nobody that doesn need to know has any clue to thier past. And in passing they show no male features because society is not clueless. I dont blame them for hiding out and not wanting to be Transsexual or associated with transsexuals. I dont want to be one either. I want to be a woman. That means I want to look like one. I dont want any male features. Most women dont. And I will go in stealth and I may help those I can online but I sure am not going to organize a march on society and spearhead any kind of movement, and I sure dont want "women" in dresses that still look like men with beards and vaginas doing it for me either.


There are boyish girls, and big girls and tall girls but they dont have a history of being male. If you want to fit into society as a woman then you need to act and look like the general population of women and the general population of women are concerned about beauty and looking pretty. A woman has her beauty.

So what's the answer to the question?  Does it hurt us (the community) when we live in stealth?

Anyone for having a TG Coming Out Day?

Julie

PS: I think this thread has proven without a doubt we may all be TS but we are all different.  A term or phrase means one thing to one person and a very different thing to another.  At least we can agree to disagree.

I think that the short answer is "no".  Honestly, for each individual, I believe that living in stealth is very healthy. At some point, we need to get on with our lives. 

Cindi

Quote from: Lori on November 22, 2006, 03:52:36 PM
Most 300lb women do Not have a transsexual history therefore dont have the prejudice against them for their sex or gender. Society may shun them for being obese, but not for who they are or who they are trying to represent. They still look like women, not 300lb fat men in dresses. Thats a double strike in society.

My biggest point is you dont put your worst representatives forward to represent your group, yet with transsexuality you cannot expect the ones that are living in stealth to out themselves and put their lives and carreers in danger to represent you. If they are in stealth then obviously they pass and nobody that doesn need to know has any clue to thier past. And in passing they show no male features because society is not clueless. I dont blame them for hiding out and not wanting to be Transsexual or associated with transsexuals. I dont want to be one either. I want to be a woman. That means I want to look like one. I dont want any male features. Most women dont. And I will go in stealth and I may help those I can online but I sure am not going to organize a march on society and spearhead any kind of movement, and I sure dont want "women" in dresses that still look like men with beards and vaginas doing it for me either.


There are boyish girls, and big girls and tall girls but they dont have a history of being male. If you want to fit into society as a woman then you need to act and look like the general population of women and the general population of women are concerned about beauty and looking pretty. A woman has her beauty.

                I would think, because of the definition of a MtF transsexual, "a woman born in a male body" it is up to society to accept those that may never fit the perfect female presentation. It is not up  to the transsexual to try to fit into an artificial mold that the superficial part of society believes they should fit. A transsexual is never a man in a dress, she is a woman in a mans body.  That is her definition. If you want to distance yourself from her that is your choice but do not ever put the blame on her for not fulfilling your expectations.


beth

I only have one final question for those who are so adament that they are now woman and NOT transexuals. WHY are you hanging around transexual formums? when you claim to no longer be transexual! If you say its because your trying to help, then perhaps you should reread some of your posts and consider the hurt that you might very well be inflicting by OVER Emphasizing how important it is to look pretty etc etc etc.  If you truly are so Super Passable then get on with your life and stop beating up on those poor souls who are full of self doubt about their presentation to society. I may not pass 100% of the time, but I do well enough to live my life as a woman and make a living for myself.

Brina

Well when the day comes that it not socially exceptable to discriminate, hurt, rape, maim, not give them proper medical care, fire them from thier jobs, or families realize its something that cannot be helped and stop turning against them, Then I will worry about making a presence. When it is illegal to discriminate against the transgendered community then I find it is just safer to try to fit in.

Maybe the gay community got where they are because of numbers, or because they got tired of having to hide and came out in force. Perhaps that is what transsexuals need to do, but if a group was picked to go to fight for rights in congress, I would want the best representative that had the best chance of being heard.

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 22, 2006, 03:54:48 PM

Anyone for having a TG Coming Out Day?

There already is one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Coming_Out_Day It's on October 11th of every year.  Coincidentally I came out to my wife (first person) on that day last year before I ever knew that day existed. :P

Melissa

Quote from: brina on November 22, 2006, 05:09:13 PM
I only have one final question for those who are so adament that they are now woman and NOT transexuals. WHY in hell are you hanging around transexual formums? when you claim to no longer be transexual!

I never claimed not to be TS to this group; that would be ridiculous. I'm post-op, lucky to pass well and live mostly in stealth... however, there are ongoing matters that I find valuable to discuss with other post-op women particularly regarding HRT. These issues can't be discussed elsewhere except for forums such as these where you can draw on other's experiences.

If I can offer advice and help to others, then I will but there are plenty of us here to do that.

To me, it's about not wanting to identify myself as TS to the world at large or more importantly, many of the circles I move in. I see no need to get upset or angry with us because this is what we have chosen.

Quote from: beth on November 22, 2006, 04:24:46 PM
It is not up to the transsexual to try to fit into an artificial mold that the superficial part of society believes they should fit.

beth

Yes Beth, the problem is not us, it's society.  While we are diagnosed with GID the reality is society has GID.  They think we all fall into one of two categories.  It's like saying there is black and white and all the other colors are mutations.  Black and white wouldn't exist without the rest of the rainbow.

Julie

QuoteTo me, it's about not wanting to identify myself as TS to the world at large or more importantly, many of the circles I move in. I see no need to get upset or angry with us because this is what we have chosen.

Have you read this thread?  No one cares if you are stealth or anything else. What we are angry about is ill informed superficial people who have said in this very thread that a person who identifies as transsexual and has had SRS "is just a man in a dress with a vagina" based solely on their looks. That is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard.


beth

Quote from: beth on November 22, 2006, 05:37:14 PM
Have you read this thread?

I have. Twice.

I was only specifically answering the question that was posed as it pertained to me, hoping perhaps to give Brina some insight into my motivations, not anyone else's. And to also to help this thread remain vaguely on topic without it descending further into a morass of ugly flaming, something which your discourteous response to me hasn't furthered.

Quote from: Stormy Weather on November 22, 2006, 05:48:29 PM

Quote from: beth on November 22, 2006, 05:37:14 PM
Have you read this thread?

I have. Twice.

I was only specifically answering the question that was posed as it pertained to me, hoping perhaps to give Brina some insight into my motivations, not anyone else's. And to also to help this thread remain vaguely on topic without it descending further into a morass of ugly flaming, something which your discourteous response to me hasn't furthered.

                     You asked why everyone was angry. I let you know it had nothing to do with you. I did not mean to be discourtious to you and if I was I apologize. I do not believe calling a statement ill informed and ignorant is flaming.  I am sorry if we disagree regarding that.


beth

Perhaps I've inadvertently strayed into some crossfire... and by directly replying to someone, have drawn some of that upon myself.

I so much wanted to keep out of this argument but wanted to contribute in some way without touching on some very raw nerves that are evident in this thread. I also have thoughts on the matter but am particularly concerned about not upsetting people, particularly as I am new to this forum.

Quote from: Stormy Weather on November 22, 2006, 06:02:19 PM
Perhaps I've inadvertently strayed into some crossfire... and by directly replying to someone, have drawn some of that upon myself.

I so much wanted to keep out of this argument but wanted to contribute in some way without touching on some very raw nerves that are evident in this thread. I also have thoughts on the matter but am particularly concerned about not upsetting people, particularly as I am new to this forum.

                 I apologize further for being so harsh. Some of the statements made here and agreed to by others have upset me and I thank you for pointing that out to me, I will try to be more polite. You are very welcome to put forth your ideas just as everyone is.


again I am sorry

beth

^Hey, that's OK! No biggie.

Just being ultra-cautious when a mod comes on a little heavy... it always takes a wee while to feel things out and get the lie of the land in a new forum.

Here, have one of my choccies. :)

(I like to recover from hospital in a little style...)

Hiee Stormy,

  I have gone back and re-read the entire thread and can say that my post was not directed at you. I get quite passionate at times and over speak.

Byee,
  Brina

Welll all I can say is WOW!!! As long as I've been here, this thread is the most heated 
one I've seen. I won't jump in , mainly because I really have no idea what stealth is.It may sound dumb. But, here I have only met one other Tgirl. We have no support groups ( wedid and it went out before I came out of denial)
So, all I know is what I've learned here. So, keep on ,matbe I'll finally catch on.

                                   Jennifer

Quote from: JenniferElizabeth on November 22, 2006, 10:46:51 PM
Welll all I can say is WOW!!! As long as I've been here, this thread is the most heated 
one I've seen. I won't jump in , mainly because I really have no idea what stealth is.It may sound dumb. But, here I have only met one other Tgirl. We have no support groups ( wedid and it went out before I came out of denial)
So, all I know is what I've learned here. So, keep on ,matbe I'll finally catch on.

                                   Jennifer

We're all learning here, so don't feel bad about it :).  Please take a second to read the the following article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism#Stealth).

Also please feel free to explore our wiki which contains wonderful articles on tg-related issues.  Take care Jennifer!


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

For what it is worth, I never really knew what "stealth" or "going dark" was until I checked into this forum last summer.  Back when I did my transition, we called it "checking out" or "disappearing".  Times and vernacular have changed.

Tink, I just read the article you referenced.  Very interesting indeed!  I am totally out to my family, my husband, my closest two friends (who are also trans people), and of course here in my internet incarnation.  I've been totally up front with everyone here that I use the name of my dog on the internet.  Should anyone wish to do any digging at all, they could discover my real identity in about 20 minutes.  Shoot, I published a book about myself!  Yet even with this publicity, I still lead a life sheltered from TS'dom here in my community.  No one knows and I attempt to live a life as a normal woman.  Is that living in stealth?  Is that pretending to be someone I am not?  Am I doing anything that ultimately hurts any of my dear sisters attempting to struggle with the very issues that nearly killed me years ago?  Am I flaunting my hard earned abilities to pass by pretending to want to help others?

Let me tell you folks, I still look in the mirror and see the same face, albeit older and more wrinkled, that I did 25 years ago.  She ain't gettin any prettier that's for sure.  I haven't had expensive surgeries. I'm not any shorter and I still have broad shoulders and a skinny derriere. I do my best to look as nice as I can.  Although I do wear a masculine work habit, I style my hair and have a nice feminine cut. I've worked hard with my voice and my presentation. It is now naturally part of me. I do not get clocked.  I no longer get chased.  I don't get the cat calls and embarassing comments and snickers.  I will sometimes get called sir from behind due to my still masculine build. I quickly take the opportunity to introduce myself and the issue is resolved immediately. My little town and community accepts me for who I am.... a hard working and fun loving woman. 

If I have offended any with my remarks, I humbly apologize for that was not my intent. I am truly here to help. If you don't know me, ask anyone who has been here a while. I feel totally comfortable in anyone explaining to anyone else just what "Cindi is like".

Some of these threads can get a bit heated. Sure we don't want to hurt feelings. But sometimes these subjects need to be discussed. Every opinion is welcome.  And you know what?  Differing opinions make life  more interesting. So keep on posting!

Cindi

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on November 23, 2006, 12:43:42 AM
For what it is worth, I never really knew what "stealth" or "going dark" was until I checked into this forum last summer.  Back when I did my transition, we called it "checking out" or "disappearing".  Times and vernacular have changed.

Tink, I just read the article you referenced.  Very interesting indeed!  I am totally out to my family, my husband, my closest two friends (who are also trans people), and of course here in my internet incarnation.  I've been totally up front with everyone here that I use the name of my dog on the internet.  Should anyone wish to do any digging at all, they could discover my real identity in about 20 minutes.  Shoot, I published a book about myself!  Yet even with this publicity, I still lead a life sheltered from TS'dom here in my community.  No one knows and I attempt to live a life as a normal woman.  Is that living in stealth?  Is that pretending to be someone I am not?  Am I doing anything that ultimately hurts any of my dear sisters attempting to struggle with the very issues that nearly killed me years ago?  Am I flaunting my hard earned abilities to pass by pretending to want to help others?

Let me tell you folks, I still look in the mirror and see the same face, albeit older and more wrinkled, that I did 25 years ago.  She ain't gettin any prettier that's for sure.  I haven't had expensive surgeries. I'm not any shorter and I still have broad shoulders and a skinny derriere. I do my best to look as nice as I can.  Although I do wear a masculine work habit, I style my hair and have a nice feminine cut. I've worked hard with my voice and my presentation. It is now naturally part of me. I do not get clocked.  I no longer get chased.  I don't get the cat calls and embarassing comments and snickers.  I will sometimes get called sir from behind due to my still masculine build. I quickly take the opportunity to introduce myself and the issue is resolved immediately. My little town and community accepts me for who I am.... a hard working and fun loving woman. 

If I have offended any with my remarks, I humbly apologize for that was not my intent. I am truly here to help. If you don't know me, ask anyone who has been here a while. I feel totally comfortable in anyone explaining to anyone else just what "Cindi is like".

Some of these threads can get a bit heated. Sure we don't want to hurt feelings. But sometimes these subjects need to be discussed. Every opinion is welcome.  And you know what?  Differing opinions make life  more interesting. So keep on posting!

Cindi

:) :) :)

I am very fortunate to have met a person like you, and I'm sure many people in these forums feel the same way, angel in disguise! :)

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

All I have to say on this topic today on this Day of Thanks is that thank God we have a place that we can disagree without being disagreeable.

I also want to say if anything I said offended anyone or made them angry, I apologize. We are all in this together, community is far more important than winning an argument.

Happy and Blessed Thansgiving Everyone

Having read practically every word in this thread I'd like to make an analysis of what has been expressed and how it reflects on changing the negative stigma of being transsexual/transgender.

I have yet to meet a transgender person who didn't want to be seen in the eyes of society more favorably.  I have read and heard many times how great it would be if we could just be ourselves and be completely accepted without prejudice, discrimination, ostracization and all of the other things we suffer in this society.  So the solution is to erase the negative stigma.  That will take a while but it can be done.

From what I have read here it seems those who can live in stealth choose to do so.  And those who can live in stealth obviously pass well enough to be seen as woman.  Since we live in a society that initially judges a book by its cover, those who pass well as woman would logically be the best candidates to represent us.  Of course, other factors are necessary but we have to think like the general public and start with looks/passability.

Those who can't pass or who are marginal have a great need for the negative stigma to be erased.  They do not have the choice of stealth.  They were not blessed with the genetics, the attributes, the financial means or what ever else is needed to make them reasonably passable.  So they either live a life in denial or repression, which too often leads to severe depression or even suicide, or choose a life where they will constantly face discrimination just because of their looks.  Neither choice is good.

Looking at this dilemma logically it would seem the best way to attack this problem is to have those who the public will accept most easily to be our representatives.  We need intelligent, articulate, well spoken, confident, motivated AND passable representatives.  The problem is many of those who can pass have no desire to put their life on the line in hopes of making some headway in erasing the stigma.  And I don't blame them.  I live in a sort of stealth right now.  I'd never out myself in the media, not at this point anyway.  I have too much to lose. 

So, if every one of us wants the stigma erased but the majority of us don't want to put our lives on the line, what do we do? 

Throughout history those who faced discrimination have eventually rebelled against the society that tried to keep them down.  When protesters had a good following, people listened.  Very few have all that it takes to be a great representative.  But one of the most important traits one has to have is the drive, the desire, to take on this challenge.  And there are people out there who have that.  People who represent us in a positive light.  People who are already out and already speaking publicly.  People who the general public will see as woman and will listen to them.

If I try to place myself in their shoes I wondered where I'd get the drive to keep going and fight the discrimination in the face of an ignorant, uneducated society.  What I would need most is to know I have a lot of people out there backing me up and encouraging me on.  History tells us that large numbers of supporters is a very important factor in changing society's views.

I'm sure many if not all of us know someone who they would like to be our spokesperson.  The person who comes to mind for me is Donna Rose (http://www.donnarose.com).  She came to Chicago last summer to compete in the Gay Games as a wrestler.  She did interviews (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20060717/ai_n16539215) with the media while here.  She's intelligent and articulate and represented us well.  I didn't get a chance to meet her but we did exchange some e-mails and I really found her likable.

So my thoughts are what if we let these people know we support them.  I'm not talking about when they are doing something in our area but as a matter of habit.  Every once in a while take the time to check up on them, see what they are doing and let them know we are behind them and thank them for being there for us.  Something along that line.  I keep asking myself "Is the reason these people aren't more active or more visible in the media because they don't have enough support to be heard?" 

I don't know.  I'm just looking for a solution to a problem that plagues us all.  Any comments?       

Julie

Julie,

I think you have done a wonderful job in summarizing all of the points that have been made.

I'm doing what I can do to further the cause.  I have a strong online presensce here and in other places.  I receive a basket full of emails every day from people I do not know but have GID related issues.  I answer every one.

I've published a book and it is being read.  I received a note the other day from a prominont Mormon Church authority and business leader in Utah.  He told me that through my experiences, he now better understood the problems that we face.  He said that he had always thought of us as being gay and that his opinion had been changed by reading the book.  Out of all the "fan" mail I have received lately, this one broke me immediately and I cried for the rest of the day.  That impregnable wall I faced in my transition now has weak mortar around one of its strongest bricks.

All of us will continue to harbor some secrets as we live life.  I doubt there are too many individuals who go totally stealth as described in the wiki article here.  Someone recently asked why post ops would hang around this place if they are attempting to live in stealth.  My answer is that I don't know. In addition to the wonderful people I have met here, I feel compelled to help in some small way.  That will have to do for now. 

Cindi

Julie, in your most recent post you kind of beat me to saying what I wanted to say.  But I wanted to pose it as a thought experiment.  So at the risk of appearing 'me, too,' here goes...

Please pardon the long set-up, I wanted to create a frame that would help divorce our many personal, passionate viewpoints on this divisive topic from the initial question posed by Julie.

We are as gods.  We are observers of the following experiment.  The outcome, whatever it is, will not directly affect us, so we have no stake in what it is.  We have no need to defend an ideology or a dogma, and indeed, we don't want to.  We only want the experiment to reveal what IS, not what we are.

Our tasks are to predict the outcome of the experiment, knowing the conditions under which it's conducted.  In predicting the outcome, we are forming hypotheses that the experiment tests for a true/false outcome.  True -- our hypothesis is validated; false -- our hypothesis is invalid, and we need to find a hypothesis that explains the results.  There is a third outcome, NULL, neither true nor false, and this indicates that the hypothesis is flawed and should be re-thought.

Formulating a question for an experiment to answer is probably the toughest part, BTW.

THE EXPERIMENT:

The experiment is designed to answer the question: Given that society currently appears to harbor misconceptions about transgenders, and those misconceptions enable and perpetuate some level of society-condoned transphobia, and given that escaping the negative effects of the misconceptions and phobia is an impetus for those transgender women who are well-able to 'pass' to live their trans-girl lives as 'stealth' as possible, does this 'removal' of the well-able-to-pass trans-girl from general visibility of society perpetuate the above-mentioned misconceptions and transphobia by not providing society examples of trans-women who do not bare discernible stigmata of a male puberty, and are often mistaken for genetic women?

CONDITIONS (INPUTS):

Constants -- The current percentage of the population who is transgendered, who are undergoing transition, and who have completed transition.  Also, the ratio within the transitioning and transitioned subgroups of fully-passable to 'clockable' trans-girls. Also, the 'baseline' metrics for society's current level of misconception of and phobia towards the trans community.  The corollary would be that the higher the level of misconception, the lower the level of acceptance in society.  One of the components of the level of transphobe-ness could be the percentage of assaults/murder on trans-girls whose trans-ness is perceived/discovered.

Variables -- The percentage of trans-girls in both groups who are fully 'out' as to their MtF status.  Let's define 'fully out' as being in an activist role.  I don't expect someone to buy a pack of gum or order a taco and tell the cashier or clerk at each stop, "I'm a trans-woman," but at critical junctures they chose being out.  For example, being casually out to memberships in groups such as churches or the Rotarians and similar civic groups.  Also, outing oneself in order to combat prejudice towards those whose natural, inherent gender or sexual orientation is at variance with the 90+% of the population in general whose gender and sexual orientations fit the 'standard' straight-heterosexual axis.  Another 'outreach' or 'activist' activity would be appearing on television advocating issues of concern to the trans community.

EXPERIMENT METHODOLOGY:

Take the above inputs and run 11 trials in which the variable input (the percentage of fully passable women who are out,) varies in steps of 10%, from 0% to 100%

Collect new metrics on societal acceptance at intervals of 1 year, 5, 10 and 25 years. (Bear with me here! this is a thought experiment  ;) )

Now, with the inputs and methodology above, what do you predict the outcome will be for each of the eleven trials?  How, and how much will the metrics of acceptance change for each of the trials.  How will the data compare for the 0%, 50% and 100% trials?

I look forward to your predictions as to the outcomes.  Please, do NOT put yourself into the experiment.  If you are currently 'stealth' or currently 'unpassable'  YOU are not in this experiment.  Also, do not make predictions designed to defend a particular position or ideology, only predict what you feel is likely to happen given the inputs.

Humbly submitted;

Karen

Quote from: beth on November 22, 2006, 04:24:46 PM

I would think, because of the definition of a MtF transsexual, "a woman born in a male body" it is up to society to accept those that may never fit the perfect female presentation. It is not up  to the transsexual to try to fit into an artificial mold that the superficial part of society believes they should fit. A transsexual is never a man in a dress, she is a woman in a mans body.  That is her definition. If you want to distance yourself from her that is your choice but do not ever put the blame on her for not fulfilling your expectations.


beth

You are not listening to me Beth.

You said "A transsexual is never a man in a dress, she is a woman in a mans body". I know that and you know that and anybody that has learned they are Transsexual knows that. That is a given in the TS community. That is not the issue up for debate.

Get Society to understand A transsexual is never a man in a dress, she is a woman in a mans body then you will be getting somewhere.

You said "If you want to distance yourself from her that is your choice but do not ever put the blame on her for not fulfilling your expectations."

Yes I wish to isolate myself from that because until society understands the real problem and stops judging the book by its cover, it becomes a safety issue for me. I dont want to end up knifed or shot or found in a dumpster for hanging out with what society perceives as men in dresses. I am not a crusader, and wouldnt even think about it until I looked good enough to convince society I am truly a woman. I dont blame her, I blame society and am not willing to risk my life for those that do not want to blend in or refuse to or just cannot. Everybody talks about how transition is a personal journey. One would think some Transsexuals like to be heckled and talked about and snickered at behind thier backs or like confrontation with the general public by reading some of the responses.

Grow a thick skin and be proud of who you are? No thank you. Being a Transsexual/Pickle sucks. I know its not my fault or any other Transsexuals, but when you have to lose everything just to be who you are that will tell you society has a very long way to go. I will blend in and dissappear even at the cost of being single and lonely the rest of my life. At least I will be alive and free to move about without having to look over my shoulder. I wont have to deal with confrontation at the post office or snickered at when I go to get groceries, or have to deal with people at work treating me like some kind of freak.
Posted on: November 23, 2006, 11:55:26 AM

---

Quote from: Steph on November 21, 2006, 07:29:14 PM

QuoteOH yes and lets not forget that this person could be MtF or FtM.

Quote
I have yet to meet a TS who has been able to ignore society.  How is that even remotely possible, you are grossly exaggerating when you refer to LOTS, and MOST, I would agree that there are some, and several.  Being out "Enfemme", give me a break, a CD would go out "Enfemme", "if" you are TS you would go out dressed as a woman.  Oh and by the way that would happen in any location not just in Texas.

Quote"Real women that pass"?  We are talking about real women are we not?  Am I less of a woman because I don't look like those who are portrayed on that Queen of the Universe Pageant?

QuoteI'm sorry but that is a ludicrous statement, and has no bearing on being a woman and quite frankly is a typically male point of view.  I have to look like a woman before I can be treated like one.?I know several women who would be mistaken for men.

First off, most FTM transsexuals do not have the same issues in passing that many MTF's have to face. I have yet to see a single FTM that has transitioned that failed to look like a man.

Second off, Rules 10 and 15

10. Bashing or flaming of any individual is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason

15. You may challenge the issue, but never the person

Insinuating I am a CD'r or say things that a man would say makes this personal and a flame and as a Global Moderator you should know the rules.

And if you bring up the Queen of the Universe Pageant 1 more time I swear I'm going to scream. I dont know what is wrong with that pageant, I think they are all beautiful.

Quote from: Lori on November 23, 2006, 11:55:26 AM
Being a Transsexual/Pickle sucks.

Apologies for being ignorant and asking this question; I'm just trying to follow the thread so that I can fully understand other's views on the matter... What's a 'Pickle' in this context?

Temperatures are getting a bit high in this thread. I'm going to lock it if it doesn't cool soon.

Dennis

Quote from: Stormy Weather on November 23, 2006, 12:07:19 PM

Quote from: Lori on November 23, 2006, 11:55:26 AM
Being a Transsexual/Pickle sucks.

Apologies for being ignorant and asking this question; I'm just trying to follow the thread so that I can fully understand other's views on the matter... What's a 'Pickle' in this context?

Its my belief there are many scopes or points on the gender spectrum. I think a transsexual is one that gets surgery to become the other sex.

I say I'm a Pickle because for me its NOT about the sexual organs. I just want to be the woman I feel I am. That means looking, sounding and acting in every aspect. Yes I will have SRS but FFS is more important to me to assimalte womanhood. The sooner I can have FFS the faster I can live life as a woman. Nobody is going to lift up my skirt or hike down my drawers to see what is between my legs so that is last on my list. Given the costs of FFS I cannot afford to do both at once. HRT works on me by making certain features unhidable, and the timeline my genetics is setting pushes the transition timetable up to the point where I have to come out sooner and I would not be able to save for SRS for a couple of more years at least. I'll be forced to come out and I will NOT go fulltime until I have had FFS. I am planning a smooth transition with making as little waves as I can. I plan on being considertate to those I work with, and society in general by presenting my best look so as to not ruffle anybodies feathers or make anybody uncomfortable, including myself.

Obviously I'm not a Transsexual, so I had to make up a name for myself and I chose "Pickle". A Pickle is also a good word for the situation I'm in.

Quote from: Lori on November 23, 2006, 12:21:06 PM
I say I'm a Pickle...

OK, gotcha. Thanks.

I'd never heard the phrase before related to TSness... I'd probably even agree with you to some extent although I'm post-op myself, fairly stealthy, and haven't had FFS. My personal drive for GRS was based on the need to reconcile issues of identity with documentation; passports, birth certificates etc...

The routes that people take along this path obviously vary widely and I utterly understand what you are doing in the order that you are doing them in to make things work for you.

Anyway, onwards. :)

Lori said,

"You are not listening to me Beth."


This is what I heard, please correct me if I am wrong,


"As long as they parade half baked unshaven MTF's that are men with vaginas claiming they are women, that does not help and only proves to the critics that they are right"


I believe I understand that statement. It means MtF transsexuals who have had SRS and do not pass,  in your mind are simply men with vaginas.  You have every right to distance yourself from those you describe but no right to define them as men. And you are right, the statement shows either a lack of understanding as to what a transsexual is or contempt for those that do not pass. Read your own words, my posts have been in reference to those words above and I do believe I am listening.



beth

Quote from: beth on November 23, 2006, 04:58:03 PM
Lori said,

"You are not listening to me Beth."


This is what I heard, please correct me if I am wrong,


"As long as they parade half baked unshaven MTF's that are men with vaginas claiming they are women, that does not help and only proves to the critics that they are right"


I believe I understand that statement. It means MtF transsexuals who have had SRS and do not pass,  in your mind are simply men with vaginas.  You have every right to distance yourself from those you describe but no right to define them as men. And you are right, the statement shows either a lack of understanding as to what a transsexual is or contempt for those that do not pass. Read your own words, my posts have been in reference to those words above and I do believe I am listening.



beth

You assume too much Beth.

You take any audience that is NOT transgendered and put a person in front of them that is unshaven, half baked meaning they still look like a man albeit they may have some feminization from HRT, that has had SRS claiming they are a woman.....the people observing are NOT going to take that transsexual seriously. I say that because  society is going to view them as screwed up men. I know it's still a Transsexual and god bless their hearts, but there is NO way I can take them seriously either. If you have a beard, and you still look like a man, a vagina does NOT make you a woman in societies eyes no matter what you claim you feel like on the inside. All you are going to do is confuse things and make it more difficult for society to understand Transsexuality. There are ugly women but they dont go around claiming they are men trying to get society to view them different becuase they don't look like women. 

And no, I dont have contempt for them, I just dont want them representing me because they are going to do more damage than good. I'm not going to go out of my way to make fun of them or say anything to them. I will go out of my way to avoid them though. Consider me shallow and vain in that aspect, I dont want to get beaten up because they have no regard for society and do with what is acceptable.

When in Rome do as the Romans do. That is the philosophy of my transition. I've always known I was a girl but nobody is ever going to believe me or take me seriously until I actually look like one and take the necessary steps to do as women do in the general population.
Posted on: November 23, 2006, 06:03:29 PM

---

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 23, 2006, 05:32:42 PM

Hi Lori,

Just a quick question hon, if this is how you view yourself, how would you view other MTF's who follow or have followed the same path as you have?  would you consider them to be pickles as well?

I am one of those women who has put off SRS for many reasons (i.e., financial, some prior health issues, family issues, passability isues, etc, etc, etc)  Like you, I also wanted to assimilate my womanhood and undo 25 years of male behavior first. In my case, I found out that I could get away with it with just hormones and a few nicks and tucks here and there since this experience allowed me to fit in society successfully without surgery.  However, SRS has always been in my mind and I have worked very hard to save the money for it.  Some would say that SRS was not my priority, but in fact it always was and still is, for it is the only reason why I have fought so tirelessly, and the main reason why I am here today.  Given this, would you still see me as a pickle? ;)


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Its up to them and you. I am not guessing who is what anymore. Since this is self diagnosed, if you want to claim you are a "pickle" given my criteria to being one, then claim that and I will accept it. I just dont feel like I fit in with the MTF Transsexual population. I am too worried about passing and being outed and worried about society to just grow out my hair, boobs, and get a vagina and force people to call me a woman. I need the voice, the face, and presentation first before I go fulltime then worry about the sexual aspects later. I need to be a woman that could never be mistaken as having ever been a man. I dont want to be a transsexual in societies eyes, just a woman with a different history. I'll even go as far as finding a surgeon to break my pelvic bone and set my hips wider if I deem that necessary but not all women have hourglass figures or curvy butts. I want a pretty face and big breasts. That will cure most of my dysphoria. The rest will be down below to complete me pr as some say, the icing on the cake. 

Quote from: Lori on November 23, 2006, 06:20:10 PM

Quote from: beth on November 23, 2006, 04:58:03 PM
Lori said,

"You are not listening to me Beth."


This is what I heard, please correct me if I am wrong,


"As long as they parade half baked unshaven MTF's that are men with vaginas claiming they are women, that does not help and only proves to the critics that they are right"


I believe I understand that statement. It means MtF transsexuals who have had SRS and do not pass,  in your mind are simply men with vaginas.  You have every right to distance yourself from those you describe but no right to define them as men. And you are right, the statement shows either a lack of understanding as to what a transsexual is or contempt for those that do not pass. Read your own words, my posts have been in reference to those words above and I do believe I am listening.



beth

You assume too much Beth.

You take any audience that is NOT transgendered and put a person in front of them that is unshaven, half baked meaning they still look like a man albeit they may have some feminization from HRT, that has had SRS claiming they are a woman.....the people observing are NOT going to take that transsexual seriously. I say that because  society is going to view them as screwed up men. I know it's still a Transsexual and god bless their hearts, but there is NO way I can take them seriously either. If you have a beard, and you still look like a man, a vagina does NOT make you a woman in societies eyes no matter what you claim you feel like on the inside. All you are going to do is confuse things and make it more difficult for society to understand Transsexuality. There are ugly women but they dont go around claiming they are men trying to get society to view them different becuase they don't look like women. 

And no, I dont have contempt for them, I just dont want them representing me because they are going to do more damage than good. I'm not going to go out of my way to make fun of them or say anything to them. I will go out of my way to avoid them though. Consider me shallow and vain in that aspect, I dont want to get beaten up because they have no regard for society and do with what is acceptable.

When in Rome do as the Romans do. That is the philosophy of my transition. I've always known I was a girl but nobody is ever going to believe me or take me seriously until I actually look like one and take the necessary steps to do as women do in the general population.
Posted on: November 23, 2006, 06:03:29 PM

---

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 23, 2006, 05:32:42 PM

Hi Lori,

Just a quick question hon, if this is how you view yourself, how would you view other MTF's who follow or have followed the same path as you have?  would you consider them to be pickles as well?

I am one of those women who has put off SRS for many reasons (i.e., financial, some prior health issues, family issues, passability isues, etc, etc, etc)  Like you, I also wanted to assimilate my womanhood and undo 25 years of male behavior first. In my case, I found out that I could get away with it with just hormones and a few nicks and tucks here and there since this experience allowed me to fit in society successfully without surgery.  However, SRS has always been in my mind and I have worked very hard to save the money for it.  Some would say that SRS was not my priority, but in fact it always was and still is, for it is the only reason why I have fought so tirelessly, and the main reason why I am here today.  Given this, would you still see me as a pickle? ;)


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Its up to them and you. I am not guessing who is what anymore. Since this is self diagnosed, if you want to claim you are a "pickle" given my criteria to being one, then claim that and I will accept it. I just dont feel like I fit in with the MTF Transsexual population. I am too worried about passing and being outed and worried about society to just grow out my hair, boobs, and get a vagina and force people to call me a woman. I need the voice, the face, and presentation first before I go fulltime then worry about the sexual aspects later. I need to be a woman that could never be mistaken as having ever been a man. I dont want to be a transsexual in societies eyes, just a woman with a different history. I'll even go as far as finding a surgeon to break my pelvic bone and set my hips wider if I deem that necessary but not all women have hourglass figures or curvy butts. I want a pretty face and big breasts. That will cure most of my dysphoria. The rest will be down below to complete me pr as some say, the icing on the cake. 

Wow,

                   You just do not get it.    I will leave you with your beliefs and wish you well.


beth

 

Quote from: beth on November 23, 2006, 07:27:11 PM
Wow,

                   You just do not get it.    I will leave you with your beliefs and wish you well.


beth

Oh I get it. You are preaching to the choir. I know regardless of what the person looks like, if they were born male and say they are transsexual then they ARE WOMEN regardless of what sexual organs they have or how they represent themselves or again, WHAT they look like. I fully understand that. I'm not going to argue that.

What you fail to understand is that nobody in society is going to take them seriously unless they pass fully and there is no way I want to be associated with somebody that looks male and puts on a dress and claims themselves to be a woman and expects society to treat them as such. People are uneducated and panicky when it comes to transgendered and I dont want to cause the panic or be around the person causing it and get caught up in the melee. That is just common sence.

This topic has now been unlocked.  I hope that cooler heads prevail and that room temperature stays at a comfortable level so everyone can enjoy the atmosphere.  Should this topic get over heated again it will be permanently locked.

Steph

Quote from: Steph on November 25, 2006, 07:58:19 AM
This topic has now been unlocked.

Thanks. It's an interesting and very relevant topic to many of us. Some things that some people have said in this thread have caused me to take a second look at my own behaviour and feelings on the matter.

What I had hoped to accomplish was to gain an understanding why we don't have a more positive representation in the public eye.  So many of us seemed resigned to the fact that the general public sees us an aberration so our only option is to hide.  And I am just as guilty as anyone in that respect.  But as I get farther and farther out in the open I find myself becoming outraged at the treatment we receive and how it hurts practically every one of us.

The accepted practice of looking at your genitals at birth and making that the only factor as to what path you will follow is ludicrous.  Who made that rule?  Even those who are happy in their gender have expectations thrust upon them they don't want.  "It's a boy!  Okay, you will excel in sports, you'll like to play with trucks, you'll be willing to fight in wars, you will be sexually attracted to women, you will marry a woman and father children and you will raise them to believe all we believe is right and proper.  We give you no logic as to why this is."  It's simply absurd!  "And by the way, we have another rule: You must look and act in a way that will not cause us discomfort.  We don't want anyone challenging our rules."  Yeah, that's just great!  Heaven forbid someone rocks the boat! 

Some of the kindest and most understanding and well grounded people I've met are from the LGBT community. I find them to be such beautiful people inside and, when they aren't allowing society to beat them down, that beauty radiates outwardly and everyone around basks in the sunshine. 

I may come across as selfish but I want to be surrounded by that inner beauty, radiating all around me.  But it has to be freed.  And the best way I know to free it is to erase the negative stigma.  End the discrimination.

If each and every one of us, whether you live in stealth or in the closet or anywhere in between, was to go one extra step to do something to help promote a positive image, an accurate image, of who we really are, I believe this will make a real impact.  Support an activist.  Write a letter to your local newspaper, even if it's anonymous.  Write your elected officials.  Do something you ordinarily wouldn't do but keep within your level of comfort.  If we do this, and we do this often, people will eventually listen.

The day will come when there is an end to the discrimination, the prejudice, the hatred, the ignorance.  When it will come I can't say.  But if we speak up and stand up for ourselves that day will come much sooner.

What we can do from here is offer suggestions as to how we can accomplish that, more specific than what I mentioned.  I'll admit, I'm a bit lost as to where best to start so any suggestion is appreciated.

Julie

I was away for a few days, just catching up now. I'm glad the thread has been unlocked, I think this is a very important discussion.

QuoteYes Beth, the problem is not us, it's society.  While we are diagnosed with GID the reality is society has GID.  They think we all fall into one of two categories.  It's like saying there is black and white and all the other colors are mutations.  Black and white wouldn't exist without the rest of the rainbow.

Julie Marie, I totally agree with you about society having GID, I said this same thing in a different thread last week.

I totally respect everyone's decisions about how much stealth is right for them. That's a personal choice. Ultimately though I'd like to see a world where anyone could live openly as who they are, passing or not. Regardless of whether they fit neatly into one gender or the other.

zythyra

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 25, 2006, 09:07:58 AM
What I had hoped to accomplish was to gain an understanding why we don't have a more positive representation in the public eye.  So many of us seemed resigned to the fact that the general public sees us an aberration so our only option is to hide.  And I am just as guilty as anyone in that respect.  But as I get farther and farther out in the open I find myself becoming outraged at the treatment we receive and how it hurts practically every one of us.

I agree with much of what you have said, but as Cindianna created another post, there are degrees to stealth.  Hiding is at the extreme and usually includes FFS. ;)  Many of us actually only only blend into society and live our lives without going around telling people about our personal medical history.  I don't go around telling people I am TS unless it would be relevant to what I'm doing.  When my girlfriend was hinting that she knew I was TS, I didn't beat around the bush and try to deny it, I just said I was and showed no shame.  I think not showing shame about ourselves is one of the biggest things that will help us.  By not being ashamed of who we are, we can walk around with an aire of confidence (which usually results in us passing better anyways).  I would never actually lie about who I was because that was the whole point of transition--to stop lying about who I was.  How does the passable person who is constantly outting themselves represent the community any better than somebody who is visibly transgendered?  They don't.  The community is comprised of all kinds of people and rather than looking for others to represent it for us who don't want to, I think everybody should be the ones to step up.

I ask you this.  How can somebody who is willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars for surgery to alter their face so that they can hide in society, criticize the people who are blending in well?

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on November 25, 2006, 09:44:07 AM
The community is comprised of all kinds of people and rather than looking for others to represent it for us who don't want to, I think everybody should be the ones to step up.

I ask you this.  How can somebody who is willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars for surgery to alter their face so that they can hide in society, criticize the people who are blending in well?

Melissa

If you read my last post in it's entirety you will see I suggested for each one of us to do something, within our own level of comfort.  It's not a demand or a request, only a suggestion.

As for your last question, you'll have to get someone else to answer it.  I can't relate.  I have never criticized anyone for their choices.  If what I said was interpreted as criticism, that wasn't the intention.  We all have our own lives and we know what's best for us.  I fully understand that and fully agree no one should be telling us how to live it.  Isn't that what we fight when we choose to transition?

It's already been established, just in this thread alone, that many of us don't want to out ourselves but all of us want the discrimination and prejudice to end.  How do we best accomplish the latter?

Julie

What about being total stealth then being outed or discovered. The people around you could feel like you lied to them or feel you were hiding the truth of who you are. They may wonder what else you have been hiding in your life. Your spouse or bf or gf may get violent with you as well. I dont know if it is really possible to live in stealth forever safely. Yet outing yourself may lend to you being single anyhow. Its just a huge mess.

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 25, 2006, 12:37:23 PM
If you read my last post in it's entirety you will see I suggested for each one of us to do something, within our own level of comfort.  It's not a demand or a request, only a suggestion.

As for your last question, you'll have to get someone else to answer it.  I can't relate.  I have never criticized anyone for their choices.  If what I said was interpreted as criticism, that wasn't the intention.  We all have our own lives and we know what's best for us.  I fully understand that and fully agree no one should be telling us how to live it.  Isn't that what we fight when we choose to transition?

It's already been established, just in this thread alone, that many of us don't want to out ourselves but all of us want the discrimination and prejudice to end.  How do we best accomplish the latter?

Julie

I did read your post in it's entirety and as I said:

Quote from: Melissa on November 25, 2006, 09:44:07 AM
I agree with much of what you have said...

If you notice the wording on my last question, the question wasn't specifically directed at you. ;)

Melissa

Hiee,

  This thread has if nothing else shown that eveyone has a major concern about being outted as a Transexual or having had a transexual past. Those who pass well feel as though they would be doing themselves and their (loved ones?) a disservice by being out in the open. There also seems to be an admission that thier lives have been compromised to one degree or another by living stealth.
  I say once again that until enough T's get fed up enough and say to society that they are no longer going to be bullied into having to live this way or that nothing will change. Whether you are transexual or consider yourself to have a transexual past you should not feel as though it is something that NEEDS to be hidden. As long as that skeleton is hidden in the closet, it can be pulled out by any unscroupulous person and used against you!

Byee,
  Brina

Quote from: Lori on November 25, 2006, 01:05:07 PM
What about being total stealth then being outed or discovered. The people around you could feel like you lied to them or feel you were hiding the truth of who you are. They may wonder what else you have been hiding in your life. Your spouse or bf or gf may get violent with you as well. I dont know if it is really possible to live in stealth forever safely. Yet outing yourself may lend to you being single anyhow. Its just a huge mess.

Lori, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.  Some of us are willing to risk the chance of being outed to live a life in peace, some not.  It's a personal decision best left unquestioned unless asked.  My decision at this point is not to live in stealth, if it's even possible.  There are many reasons I have made that choice but it's just that, my choice.

Still I truly believe in fighting the negative stigma.  Today I wondered it this may one day lead to being openly active.  I really admire those who are and find myself drawn to them.  It's possible I could gain the courage to be like them through contact with them.  When I'm passionate about something I feel alive.  As I get closer to retirement I find myself fearing just getting old and dying.  Erasing the negative stigma is something I am passionate about and becoming openly active would keep me feeling alive as my life draws to a close.  It's something I am considering more and more seriously every day.

Julie

Quote from: brina on November 25, 2006, 05:10:02 PM
I say once again that until enough T's get fed up enough and say to society that they are no longer going to be bullied into having to live this way or that nothing will change.

Admirable idealism but that's just not the way things work.

Very early in my transition, while standing on a train platform, I was spat at by a man who then said to me 'I know what you are'.

People like this are precisely the reason why many of us want to live normally, whatever your definition of 'normal' is. I didn't transition to become a transsexual. To me that phrase denotes a process, a means to an end, not a fixed identity or a label I wish to publicly bear.

Quote from: brina on November 25, 2006, 05:10:02 PM
Hiee,

   Whether you are transexual or consider yourself to have a transexual past you should not feel as though it is something that NEEDS to be hidden.

Personally,  I don't think I have the need to advertise my transsexuality to anyone, for this is just a part of my medical history and does not make me who I am.  To me, being transsexual is just like having been born with a cleft palate or six toes in one foot, a mere birth defect.  I would certainly not tell anyone about these birth defects either.  The only difference with transsexualism is that the birth defect is between people's legs, but IMO this does not make it so significant that I feel obligated to announce it to the world. 

Quote from: BrinaAs long as that skeleton is hidden in the closet, it can be pulled out by any unscroupulous person and used against you!

I agree, but I'm sure that if this moment arrives, I'd deal with it accordingly then.  The fear of being discovered is not going to make me proclaim my transsexuality to everyone I know, for It'd do more harm than good in my case.


tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 25, 2006, 05:17:00 PM

Quote from: Lori on November 25, 2006, 01:05:07 PM
What about being total stealth then being outed or discovered. The people around you could feel like you lied to them or feel you were hiding the truth of who you are. They may wonder what else you have been hiding in your life. Your spouse or bf or gf may get violent with you as well. I dont know if it is really possible to live in stealth forever safely. Yet outing yourself may lend to you being single anyhow. Its just a huge mess.

Lori, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.  Some of us are willing to risk the chance of being outed to live a life in peace, some not.  It's a personal decision best left unquestioned unless asked.  My decision at this point is not to live in stealth, if it's even possible.  There are many reasons I have made that choice but it's just that, my choice.

Still I truly believe in fighting the negative stigma.  Today I wondered it this may one day lead to being openly active.  I really admire those who are and find myself drawn to them.  It's possible I could gain the courage to be like them through contact with them.  When I'm passionate about something I feel alive.  As I get closer to retirement I find myself fearing just getting old and dying.  Erasing the negative stigma is something I am passionate about and becoming openly active would keep me feeling alive as my life draws to a close.  It's something I am considering more and more seriously every day.

Julie

It was more of a rhetorical statement than a personal opinion. That is why I used words such as may, and could, and dont' know if it is possilble. Until you are fully transitioned and living your life, it just seems like a conundrum..to me. It could go either way. Society may stomp your guts out and leave you in a dumpster or you may find the courage to stand up and fight for your rights then get thrown into the dumpster. Or you may just change views of those you touch and things could be alright. With no federal laws to protect you its a risky proposition to impose your views on a society that views TS as something different.

Quote from: brina on November 25, 2006, 05:10:02 PM
I say once again that until enough T's get fed up enough and say to society that they are no longer going to be bullied into having to live this way or that nothing will change.

True, but you know how that goes: organize a group protest, and everyone will accuse us forcing our "agenda" down their throats. There was a transsexual teacher in NJ who created quite a stir last year when she wanted to teach again as a woman. All kinds of groups showed up at the meeting to support her. And many in the community didn't react so well, seeing it as a political agenda, an attempt to "convert" people and.. oh no... suggest that TSism is "OK" somehow. They only saw the ISSUE, and not the person.

The same teacher attended a similar meeting months later - alone this time. And no one batted an eye. No outrage. No nasty comments. It was a non-event.

QuoteWhether you are transexual or consider yourself to have a transexual past you should not feel as though it is something that NEEDS to be hidden.

Quite so. I've been drafting a number of letters recently... to my doctor, employer, friends... and in every case, I barely get two sentences into it before I find myself justifying and apologizing for how I feel, and what I need to do. I spend so much time explaining what I'm NOT, there's little space left for what I AM. And that's what's frustrating. Mention you're TS to someone, and they instantly assume all these way-wrong associations. It's not that I mind associating with TSs, be they ugly, beautiful, passable, or not... but I find myself spending so much time explaining that it's NOT about the clothes, erotic thrills, wanting to attract straight men, etc. - that I must admit I'm scared to get beat up (once I finish transitioning) because of that.

And not that people who DO care about those things deserve to get beat up EITHER... but darn it, at least hate me for who *I* am if you must hate me at all. I mean OK, here's my honestly: I'm NOT ashamed to be TS. If I could walk into a store, being totally unpassable, and yet everyone KNEW I was TS and not <insert all the other TG options>, I could handle that. Even the scorn. But what makes me cringe in shame and embarassment, right or wrong, is knowing they'll think I'm a CDr or TV. Not that there's anything WRONG with being a CDr or TV, but darn it, it's not ME.

I know, I'm shallow and insecure and have a few issues to figure out...

Hiee Tink,

 I don't 'ALWAYS' go around proclaiming my transexuality either, but I do on occassions and not just special events.

Tink quoted:
The fear of being discovered is not going to make me proclaim my transsexuality to everyone I know, for It'd do more harm than good in my case.
:end quote

 And that is the delemma. No one wants to be the first one to be shot and killed so to speak. For all of you living in stealth I can appreciate the reasons why, I just don't agree with them. The sooner society is made aware that transexualism is nothing more then a medical problem that can be corrected and that we are normal every day productive citizens the better.

Byee,
 Brina

PS I am fairly old and as much as I would want an LTR with a man, I'm not sure its likely to happen. That being said, if it did happen, and he wanted me to be stealth and live my life as though I were a natal woman, I am not sure I could as for me it would be a major lie about my very being.

                                   (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm37%2Frianmarze%2Fbashcomp.gif&hash=78aa051e9902fb03736a444c4ff0e1cc333fdb15)


                            Please take me....

                                   (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm37%2Frianmarze%2Fthalien011.gif&hash=1c686c49df13c88f9bceffa1457fa06c5dbda1c5)


                              thank you!



                              tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Hiee Kate,

  The biggest dis-service done to the transexual community has been perpetrated by the pychs when they in all thier infinite wisdom decided to dump us in the Transgendered Pot. We are after all the only ones in this group who identify as the opposite gender to which we were assigned at birth. Its pure idiocy to me. Perhaps it was done to intentionally marginalize us as a group. I think a great deal of my pychiatrist as an individual but his proffesion as a whole in respect to transexuals sux.

Byee,
  Brina
Posted on: 2006-11-25, 20:30:45

---

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 25, 2006, 06:15:05 PM
                                   (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm37%2Frianmarze%2Fbashcomp.gif&hash=78aa051e9902fb03736a444c4ff0e1cc333fdb15)


                            Please take me....

                                   (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm37%2Frianmarze%2Fthalien011.gif&hash=1c686c49df13c88f9bceffa1457fa06c5dbda1c5)


                              thank you!

ROFLMAO your timing is impeccable dear Tinkerbell :)
Hugs,
  Brina



                              tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Quote from: brina on November 25, 2006, 06:34:13 PM
Hiee Kate,

  The biggest dis-service done to the transexual community has been perpetrated by the pychs when they in all thier infinite wisdom decided to dump us in the Transgendered Pot. We are after all the only ones in this group who identify as the opposite gender to which we were assigned at birth. Its pure idiocy to me. Perhaps it was done to intentionally marginalize us as a group. I think a great deal of my pychiatrist as an individual but his proffesion as a whole in respect to transexuals sux.

Byee,
  Brina

Don't forget the church and all of its affiliates and the hatred and lies they preach about those that are different.

As a bit of a twist on this conversation, I would like to point out that I have "outed" myself in a big way on the internet and in print.  Most of you know that I have a book of my memoirs in print.  I've also been very open on the internet... .not only here but in several blogs which are read by thousands of people every day.  The topics I discuss are not always about TSism.  They cover a variety of topics from religion to personal rights and freedoms.  I have several regular readers and I receive many personal emails with questions.  I know that publicly, I am putting a face on the issues we all confront daily.  At least a small part of society is learning that "Cindi, the TS" is a real person.

This did not evolve from a need that has built over many years living in stealth.  It came from a sincere desire to help others.

Cindi

I have been an activist for transgender people for about 5 years now. I what I have seen over the years has been acceptance from a major part of society. We are gaining more acceptance at a faster pace than the Gay community has in over 20 or 30 years. Just think that about 20 years ago, who would have thought that the trans population would have come out as much as we have. When I first started in this about 5 years ago, I thought maybe there were about 100 trans people in the Eugene/Springfield area and that there weren't that many who have transtitioned. Well, I was wrong on the count, I don't know how many there are but what I do know there are more than a 100 trans people in this area. We have a population of about 200,000 in the area. I have met with a lot of girls and guys who are fully transitioned and are in different degrees of stealth. I know of a couple who have done documentaries on TV. What believe is that by the time the kids that are in college now reach my age 57, that transgender will no longer be a problem. We will be accepted and that there will be no need for protection as we will be accepted as people who have had a decision made for them corrected. I believe that at that time the insurance companies will be paying for our surgeries (GRS) to make us right. I don't think they will be paying for FFS as that would be cosmetic. We will be accepted so there will be no passing. Right now, I go through life passing if you call it that, but just living my life as a woman and everyone accepts me. I do not deny myself nor do I make a big deal out of it. I don't send out the pink triangle flag everytime I meet someone. I have conquored my fear and that was all it was. It was the boogie man under the bed. There still is some ignorance in this world and we still have a lot to do, but hiding under the covers is not a way to educate people. I do respect some of your feelings and that you need  to be stealth for certain reasons, but as someone else has said, but your words and actions anyway you can, just as long as you feel comfortable doing it. I have said this before, I have been out and I don't hide my TS'ism at all, but have found that I have gone stealth without even trying. People accept me for who I am.
Sheila

I read all this (btw took like 40 minutes... :P)
And i only can add what i think or feel.
I am not transitioning but that somehow to me does not mean i am in stealth either way.  I have not dramatically changed my looks (i do shave my legs during times of the year and stuff and trim my eyebrows, etc..) BUT..
The girl inside me has never not been the girl inside me?  People cannot see it cause they identify with what you look like on the outside?
Whether i was ugly or pretty as a transitioned woman i would present that.  Right now i present a male form so people assume i am male! Yuck! :P
but that's a choice i made thus far but none of it means i am not a girl...
I generally do not feed much into the whole thing i work to impress myself not others.  I am not transitioning not because i think people would judge me or not but becasue i am my worst critic and i am not sure my changes would please ME!
I have another thought?
what if (assuming first they did not acknowledge they were transsexual or not)a natal man, a good looking one to boot appeared in a mans nice suit and reperesnted the ts community and a natal woman appearing as a nicely dressed woman represented the group?  I'm not saying i want this i am thinking it outloud to wonder what the publics opinions would be?
would the public at a symposium after hearing this "good looking guy guy and pretty girl girl" talking on gender issues- say oh how gross they are transsexuals, agghhhh
and judge them and categorize them????  but if the woman and man identified them as natal saying they are just in support of the ts/is, etc.. movement would they be criticized as harshly then?
I dunno, poeple are awful and they see what they want to see and not always what is really there?
This post was good and had some great moments and i learned from them!
Thanks
Ricki

Quote from: Kate on November 25, 2006, 06:08:10 PM
I've been drafting a number of letters recently... to my doctor, employer, friends... and in every case, I barely get two sentences into it before I find myself justifying and apologizing for how I feel, and what I need to do. I spend so much time explaining what I'm NOT, there's little space left for what I AM.

Simple, what you are is a person with a female identity.  It's that simple.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on November 25, 2006, 11:55:56 PM
Simple, what you are is a person with a female identity.  It's that simple.

It's sure clear and simple for us, but the civilians out there can't seem to grasp or even allow anything outside of their personal realm of experience as being valid. They instinctively seem to fill their voids of ignorance and lack of knowledge with prejudice and bigotry, just to shore up the leaky holes in their personal, though shared, reality.

God forbid they actually, you know, EDUCATE themselves, lol...

Grrr, I'm getting bitter and sarcastic. Time for sleepy bye methinks... ;)

Quote from: Melissa on November 25, 2006, 11:55:56 PM

Quote from: Kate on November 25, 2006, 06:08:10 PM
I've been drafting a number of letters recently... to my doctor, employer, friends... and in every case, I barely get two sentences into it before I find myself justifying and apologizing for how I feel, and what I need to do. I spend so much time explaining what I'm NOT, there's little space left for what I AM.

Simple, what you are is a person with a female identity.  It's that simple.

Melissa

I agree Melissa, it is pretty simple... for us.  We are very well educated in transgender issues.  Compared to the general public we all have at least one PhD.  And we'd like to teach the general public.  But will they sign up for the course?

I don't like being militaristic but there's something telling me we have to get in their face once in a while.  Sitting back and accepting the life they have tried to shove down our throats certainly isn't doing much to educate them.  I keep reading about the pain, the fear, the anxiety, the anguish we have to go through (and I have lived much of that myself) and I want to do something to stop it.  I can be a bull if you wave that red cape in front of me and the treatment of transgender people is a red cape to me.

We talk about the unfair treatment we get in society.  We talk about how we need change.  But all too often when faced with the prejudice and intolerance we either try to justify our existence or simply accept the treatment as part of being TG.  As long as we are willing participants in this discrimination, and our lack of protest is seen as just that, we will have to live with it.

I walked into Target yesterday to buy some things.  It was the typical pre-Christmas crowd, packed.  At first I found myself thinking "I hope nobody notices me."  Then I thought "What the hell are you so afraid of?"  I picked up my head, put a smile on my face and shopped just like any other woman would.  I made eye contact freely and without fear.  No one seemed to care.  The only time I felt snubbed was when checking out at the register.  I made a humorous comment but the cashier didn't even look up or acknowledge me.  I thought "So this might be a little weird to her.  That's okay."  I paid for the items and she handed me the receipt with a "Thank you.  Come again" and a smile on her face.  When I heard her speak I knew why she ignored me.  She was deaf.  I walked out laughing at myself for jumping to conclusions. 

We all have fears.  Those fears are the result of living in a society that has no idea who we are.  We can try to apologetically justify why we are the way we are or just say, "Hey, this is the way I was born" and get on with life.  I used to do the former.  I'm finding the latter works better.

Julie

Julie I think the key you found in not trying to overdo things is going to be at the top of my list. I think we try too hard and put on to much makeup at first, wear the skirts and heels and look unnatural. I don't know about others but I am learnig a ton of stuff from you, including your attitude. Jeans and T-shirts seem to be the going trend of dress here lately and women seem to be very casual. Seems like a great time to transition, wouldnt be much different from what I wear now.

Well the way I look at it is I am walking around wearing my hair how I want to, putting on makeup because I choose to and wearing clothes that I like.  To people I appear female and I am happy with that.  Regardless of gender, I am simply a person that chooses to look that way.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to look that way.  I don't go around telling people I am female and demanding they treat me like one.  I am just going about my daily business.  There is absolutely no need to justify why other than because I want to.  So I feel absolutely no shame since I am in this mindset.  If I don't like how certain people react to how I choose to live then I have the choice to not waste my time being around them.

As for unfair treatment in general society, at this point, I can't recall ever experiencing this.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on November 26, 2006, 08:14:41 PM
As for unfair treatment in general society, at this point, I can't recall ever remember experiencing this.

Hmmm, ya know, wouldn't it be ironic...

I've spent so much time here lately ranting and accusing "society" of being a bunch of ignorant, judgemental ninkinoops, thinking all sorts of mean things about me before even getting to KNOW me.

It should be noted that I've never, ever actually GONE anywhere "enfemme." Maybe *I* am the judgemental ninkinpoop, demonizing THEM before even giving them a chance. Hmmm.

I'm probably just so insecure and terrified that I'm already demonizing them in advance, blaming THEM for "making" me go to such extraordinary lengths as facial surgery and whatnot just to fit in seamlessly. And OK, much of that is for ME, for ME to be comfortable with myself even OUTSIDE of the public eye.

But STILL. I read posts such as Julie's and MEW's just going out and doing their business, and I'm just overwhelmed with both jealousy AND admiration.

Quote from: Kate on November 26, 2006, 08:41:59 PM
But STILL. I read posts such as Julie's and MEW's just going out and doing their business, and I'm just overwhelmed with both jealousy AND admiration.

Aww Kate.  You'll get there eventually. :)

Melissa

Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 26, 2006, 09:06:49 PM
I have been treated unfairly by society either.

Were you intending to say you haven't?

Melissa

Quote from: MelissaAs for unfair treatment in general society, at this point, I can't recall ever remember experiencing this.

Quote from: TinkerbellI second what Melissa has said here.  I haven't been treated unfairly by society either.  However, I know that this has to do with the fact that "they" don't know I am TS....but what if "they" did?  would "they" accept me and treat me with the same kind of respect?  I honestly can't answer that because I have never experienced it......although my feminine intuition tells me that "they" wouldn't.

Hmn... May I (gently, gingerly, delicately) suggest that maybe we think about this topic's title in light of the above two members' postings?

And may I also clearly state that I feel that the more of us who pass well enough to live in stealth who live out, the more society in general will eventually come to accept TG/TS as not-sin, not-bad, not-crazy, not-weird, etc., and will instead more and more see it as something perhaps a bit rare but entirely natural and okay.

I also feel there might be a bit of a backlash in the near term.  Look at 'gay marriage'.  Personally I think it's a ridiculous term -- I see marriage as marriage an outward manifestation of a deep and long-term commitment and union between two people, not a reward for sustaining and supporting a patriarchal-based society ("If you don't rock our boat, we'll let you get your freak on with your spouse, guilt free!!!")  But we (society) are actually debating 'gay marriage', where when I was a kid, Stonewall had yet to happen and I resented my stepbrothers calling me a homosexual at every chance.

Progress can be made.

But it takes work. 

(dang!  I just noticed I slipped into rant mode again.  Well, finish what I started...)

Somebody's gotta be Rosa Parks, getting hauled off a bus for sitting in the 'wrong' seat.  Somebody's gotta get sprayed with firehoses and worse in Selma, Alabama.  And, yes, people can work behind the scenes, too.

Guess I better put my soapbox away.

I hope this topic becomes a discussion on how to get the awareness, acceptance and valuation of TG/TS people raised in society.  Julia tried to start it by posing a what-if -- what IF all the totally passable and in deep stealth trans-women were out and recognized as being transwomen?  Would society as a whole come to eventually change its view on TG/TS people from what it is now?

Some people can't go out of stealth, some don't want to.  But we can all do things to undo the Jerry-Springer-promoted view of US as freaks.  What can we do?

Lets talk about it...

Karen

Well if I do end up revealing myself, it will come slowly.  I got too much backlash from my parents, brother and sister to be completely trusting of society.  To clarify, I have been in stealth situations where I am sure I would have experienced violence if I had revealed, but to the people I have revealed myself I haven't recived any.

Melissa

Quote from: Lori on November 26, 2006, 07:31:32 PM
Julie I think the key you found in not trying to overdo things is going to be at the top of my list. I think we try too hard and put on to much makeup at first, wear the skirts and heels and look unnatural. I don't know about others but I am learning a ton of stuff from you, including your attitude. Jeans and T-shirts seem to be the going trend of dress here lately and women seem to be very casual. Seems like a great time to transition, wouldn't be much different from what I wear now.

Lori, we all go through a metamorphosis.  The moth to a butterfly is an often used and a very accurate analogy to describe what we go through. 

As we go through these stages our first inclination is to hide and disguise anything male about us.  So we over do it.  As we metamorphose during transition we learn the subtleties that separate the natural woman from the unnatural one.  Physical gender has nothing to do with it.

You're right about today's fashion.  It's probably more conducive to gender neutral attire than ever.  It wasn't that long ago I was convinced I had to be all dolled up to pass.  I pass almost always when in casual attire.  It's when I get all dolled up that I get clocked.  I've wondered if I'm living in Bizzaro World.

In many ways you are right Lori, this is a great time to transition.  But better times will come as long as we don't allow society to make us carry their intolerance.

Quote from: Kate on November 26, 2006, 08:41:59 PM

I've spent so much time here lately ranting and accusing "society" of being a bunch of ignorant, judgemental ninkinoops, thinking all sorts of mean things about me before even getting to KNOW me.

It should be noted that I've never, ever actually GONE anywhere "enfemme." Maybe *I* am the judgemental ninkinpoop, demonizing THEM before even giving them a chance. Hmmm.

I'm probably just so insecure and terrified that I'm already demonizing them in advance, blaming THEM for "making" me go to such extraordinary lengths as facial surgery and whatnot just to fit in seamlessly. And OK, much of that is for ME, for ME to be comfortable with myself even OUTSIDE of the public eye.

But STILL. I read posts such as Julie's and MEW's just going out and doing their business, and I'm just overwhelmed with both jealousy AND admiration.

What you are doing Kate is no different that what I've done many times.  I've blamed society just like you.  And like you I was insecure and terrified so I made them the cause of my problems. 

Kate, I need to tell you this.  When I go out I still have fears.  When I go out I still worry.  When I go out I wonder what people think.  But I cannot live in a self imposed prison.  When I described a TS friend who was so comfortable with herself to another friend I heard, "So it's no longer her problem, it's everyone elses'."  I thought about that and was blown away by it's simplicity.  So I decided to make who I am every one else's problem, not mine.  I won't carry their burden for them. 

We have been trained, from birth, to believe it's our responsibility to march in lock step with societal expectations.  They don't care how you feel inside.  They don't care what your real personality is.  All they care about is you not upsetting their simple world.  It's like "Please!  Don't make me think!"  It's kind of sad.

Kate, I never thought I could pass.  But thanks to the support I've had here, I knew I had to go out and live life as me.  Confidence is important.  And confidence can only be gained by doing.  By doing I've become more comfortable going out as me.  I've spent almost two weeks living a female life.  I've spent Thanksgiving with family.  I've gone holiday shopping.  I've run errands.  Not once did I revert back to male.  I just couldn't.  But I'm nowhere near where I will be one day.  Transition takes time.  From what I've experienced so far it's time well spent.  They say transitioning is a miracle.  So far I haven't seen anything to dispute that.

Julie

I have made the phrase going out and being stealth without even trying. I really think that people don't even care that you are TG. When I have told people, this is when I first came out, they would say oh and ask, what I thought was a dumb question, and I would answer them truthfully. The questions were a variety so I'm not listing them. Now, people don't even ask about me they don't even care, I guess I should cry my eyes out because they don't care about me anymore, but they don't. It's strange. I would imagine that the only place you would have a problem would be in community showers, like a gym or swimming pool area. Then it could be solved, too. I have had people thank me for being so open and that they like that. I guess it's called honesty.
Sheila

Quote from: KarenAnd may I also clearly state that I feel that the more of us who pass well enough to live in stealth who live out, the more society in general will eventually come to accept TG/TS as not-sin, not-bad, not-crazy, not-weird, etc., and will instead more and more see it as something perhaps a bit rare but entirely natural and okay.

I hope this topic becomes a discussion on how to get the awareness, acceptance and valuation of TG/TS people raised in society.  Julie tried to start it by posing a what-if -- what IF all the totally passable and in deep stealth trans-women were out and recognized as being transwomen?  Would society as a whole come to eventually change its view on TG/TS people from what it is now?

Some people can't go out of stealth, some don't want to.  But we can all do things to undo the Jerry-Springer-promoted view of US as freaks.  What can we do?

Lets talk about it...

Karen

Karen, somehow I missed your post.  ???  Anyway, I agree with you.

I was talking to my doctor yesterday.  He's probably brought more girls through transitioning than any other doctor presently practicing in Illinois today, maybe ever.  I told him some of what has been discussed here and said, "If those who can live in stealth do then society will only see those who cannot pass or just don't try and they will be our representatives."  He agreed wholeheartedly and said he's seen that and recognized that as a real problem for us.  It's not that there's anything wrong with those who can't pass but the general public is only seeing part of who we are.  And those who truly can't pass, I think, represent only a small fraction of us.  Attitude has an awful lot to do with passing. 

Springer and other sensationalistic media whores parade on stage anything that will shock the audience.  They have done our community a great disservice and we have to undo the damage or we'll forever carry the burden.  Yes, things are better now than they ever were but I don't know anyone who likes the present situation.  So something must be done.

Society has to see us for who we really are.  The only way I know of that happening is we have to put our face out there.  But if we don't have our best representatives out there the road will be longer and more difficult.  Put the wrong representative out there and it could set us back, big time!

Sadly the biggest problem we may face is people don't want to listen to us.  They just want us to go away.  Hollywood could help us out tremendously but what's in it for them?  Transamerica did okay even though Huffman was nominated for an Oscar.  For the most part movie goers just weren't interested in seeing a movie about a man becoming a woman, not even if that person was played by a very popular actress.

So the question is how do we get them to listen?  The gay movement paraded out in the streets, many in provocative attire.  Initially it was a setback but they kept it up until people listened.  And the people who will make the most difference initially are the politicians.  They will listen, AS LONG AS THEY KNOW THERE ARE ENOUGH VOTES OUT THERE TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE!  That's why they have to know how many of there really are.  How do we get that magic number?

Julie

I believe that our best representation is made by ALL of us as we go through transition.  This is where the public sees us change from a male to a woman in the course of our RLT.   This is where they see the spectrum of who we are and what we look like, before and after.  This is our prized gift we do give to the world.

Sure, Springer has the oddballs.  But it is like minded oddballs who watch his show.  There is a great percentage of the thinking population who has had the positive experience of watching one of us change. So, go gettum girls!

Cindi

I participated in this thread halfway through, then I blinked, and suddenly it's twice as many pages, lol.  I guess it interests all of us!

Someone asked why post-ops come back to Susan's.  Three reasons, in my case:  (1) Hopefully to help others, (2) because, even though I'm post-op, I still find I can learn things and (3) because I still admittedly have issues (including occasional fear and depression) to work out.

Regarding appearance, I generally wear gender-neutral clothing and find, as others have, that it can often help my "passing." The key, for me, was noting that most women around me dressed that way and so I, wanting to blend in, followed.  When I am just wearing pajamas and no makeup and have to unexpectedly answer the door, it of course delights me when the person greets me, "Good morning, ma'am."  That experience is one of my favorite things in the world.  When it happens to you (as I assure you it will), the last thing you'll think about is "coming out."  It feels SO GOOD that it's like reaching a beautiful destination.

Regarding negativity, I assure you that, when post ops offer a negative personal experience about transitioning, they are not trying to make anyone feel sad.  They are simply telling it as it is, from their point of view.  My ex often warned me about the perils of transitioning.  It didn't stop me.  And it shouldn't, if you are sincere about transitioning, stop you either.  I joked with my friends once, using a famous quote, "It could be that the whole purpose of my life is to serve as a warning to others."  They knew enough about me (I'm a pretty determined individual) to know that I WASN'T going to stop transitioning.  By saying the quote though, I put into a humorous way the angst I was going through -- I was letting off steam, trying to cheer myself.  It's kind of like the joke about the guy who jumps off a building and says as he falls downwards, "Well, so far so good!"  But don't worry too much... 

Try, if you can, to laugh about your worries about transitioning or your ponderings of "whether or not to come out."  By laughing at my own worries, I began relieving my own tensions.  I made it and you can make it.  Bottom line, my optimism tells me that issues like "gay marriage" and "transsexualism" will become boring and not worthy of raising an eyebrow on Jerry Springer.  And then, poor Jerry will have to move onto some other ratings-grabbing issue.  As someone pointed out, transsexuals are gaining acceptance much faster than the centuries gays had to endure before being generally accepted.

I will come out at times when I feel it's appropriate and, in my own way, promise to try to help our cause.

Teri Anne

Has been a long long time since I've posted here, how time flies... something led me here tonight, and decided to post to the thread.

There is as many unique stories as there are people on the planet, and this remains true for lgbt folk. When it comes to being stealth and such, yes and no. With those I work with, those I get to know, no. With strangers and such, you betcha. I work for a state agency in a small office, eight of us, with a superb, unfortunately soon to leave, boss. Of the seven others, 5 are women, 2 of us are dykes. Of the two guys, well... a month after being there, he came over to me and came out as tg, and those numbers shifted. I say he now, simply because changing the pronoun could lead to his outing, and only me, the other dyke, and our boss knows.

I transitioned over 3 years ago now, and what is amazing is how excrutiatingly painful the prior to was, and how very non-scary the apres transition has been. When I used to post here say... 7 or so years ago, then under rayeellen, well, transition was not even considered an option, it was an abstract dream, this in a life I'd never thought would be left behind. Well, life had a funny way of getting it done, though those who know me know I'd really not wish to relive the dysfunction of 2001-2003, and it's nice being out here post such events.

As for others, there have been people who have told me I had some obligation to tell those I interact with. Yeah, right. Relationships yes, casual acquaintances, no flipping way. Why do they need to know?

Anyway... I'm definitely out as a feminist and as a dyke, what with my doggie rainbow sticker to the back of my car, kitty rainbow to the front, and in other not so passively displayed ways, but as tg... where and when I choose.

nelle

Living in stealth is fine

I find it very exciting
a night out under candlelight in an Italian restaurant in Kerry
and after the Italian red wine I'm drinking O'Hara's stout & all I'm worried about is............is the
O'Hara's making my lipstick weaker ...in its strength!!!

I love being in stealth mode!!!
it excites me.....i like the magic of it

It makes my heart beat faster

High heels down the cobbled streets,,,,,,,,,,

& the sound of Ireland around me

............... and then when I'm at Susan's I like being unstealthy too

Being in unstealth mode is also ok

Every year I hold a Halloween party at my ancient cottage in deepest darkest country......the
hazel bush scratching at the window & the ivy creeping through the cracks

We get all sorts coming along

The Angel of Death, Sergeant Pepper, Sister Sin the Nun from Hell, Al Capone, Johnny
Rotten with Nancy, Dr Death who actually works at a hospital & had to resuscitate a number
of us later on in the evening.....maybe readying us for another world .......... and also me as
myself!!

Everybody else dressed........and I'm undressed!!...........very undressed ..........ie dressed as
me!!.................me myself.............misty

Just having a beautiful unstealthy ,....,,,but maybe also unhealthy evening!!....my punches
such as the "Rats Spleen Juice" infused with bilberries and home-grown blackberries........
..............oozing strength and vitamin C..!!!

I did have one punch entitled "Transsexual Conversion Potion – 24 hour Action"
...............which seemed rather popular and seemed to react a little faster than anticipated
............suddenly we had French tarts on every corner of the cottage touting for business
lips pursed at the ready...............but nevertheless  it seemed  to be very appreciated by
all.......

Except perhaps by the mums that had sons arriving home as daughters!!!

I like both modes!!!

I wish you all well

My love

misty  xxx

Quote from: misty on December 04, 2006, 03:50:30 PM
Living in stealth is fine

I find it very exciting
a night out under candlelight in an Italian restaurant in Kerry
and after the Italian red wine I'm drinking O'Hara's stout & all I'm worried about is............is the
O'Hara's making my lipstick weaker ...in its strength!!!

I love being in stealth mode!!!
it excites me.....i like the magic of it

It makes my heart beat faster

High heels down the cobbled streets,,,,,,,,,,

& the sound of Ireland around me

............... and then when I'm at Susan's I like being unstealthy too

Being in unstealth mode is also ok

Every year I hold a Halloween party at my ancient cottage in deepest darkest country......the
hazel bush scratching at the window & the ivy creeping through the cracks

We get all sorts coming along

The Angel of Death, Sergeant Pepper, Sister Sin the Nun from Hell, Al Capone, Johnny
Rotten with Nancy, Dr Death who actually works at a hospital & had to resuscitate a number
of us later on in the evening.....maybe readying us for another world .......... and also me as
myself!!

Everybody else dressed........and I'm undressed!!...........very undressed ..........ie dressed as
me!!.................me myself.............misty

Just having a beautiful unstealthy ,....,,,but maybe also unhealthy evening!!....my punches
such as the "Rats Spleen Juice" infused with bilberries and home-grown blackberries........
..............oozing strength and vitamin C..!!!

I did have one punch entitled "Transsexual Conversion Potion – 24 hour Action"
...............which seemed rather popular and seemed to react a little faster than anticipated
............suddenly we had French tarts on every corner of the cottage touting for business
lips pursed at the ready...............but nevertheless  it seemed  to be very appreciated by
all.......

Except perhaps by the mums that had sons arriving home as daughters!!!

I like both modes!!!

I wish you all well

My love

misty  xxx

If only I could be across the atlantic with you. You sound so...magical.

The biggest thing I don't like about being out is when people choose to use the wrong pronouns.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on December 04, 2006, 05:38:02 PM
The biggest thing I don't like about being out is when people choose to use the wrong pronouns.

Melissa

Often times it's just ignorance.  Unintentional ignorance.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 04, 2006, 06:32:23 PM

Quote from: Melissa on December 04, 2006, 05:38:02 PM
The biggest thing I don't like about being out is when people choose to use the wrong pronouns.

Melissa

Often times it's just ignorance.  Unintentional ignorance.

Julie

Well, yeah, it's a choice made with ignorance, but it's still a choice.  Another choice is they could ask instead of assume.

Melissa

Another way of dealing with it Melissa is to throw it right back at who is doing it, not at that particular moment but when the proper occassion arises. Most men will see it as a joke initially but after it has been repeated a few times they tend to get the message if they have any decency at all. If they enquire as to why you are doing it, simply ask them how does if feel to be addressed as the wrong gender.

Byee,
  Brina

Hey, Brina!

I can't do it to everybody, but to friends I'm out to, I make it sort of a game.  If they mess up and call me he, him or sir, I'll refer to them with the wrong pronoun.  They laugh and catch on real fast.

Karen

My best friend offered this deal to me about 4 years ago:  If she calls me "he," she owes me $5.00.  She was, of course, kind to offer and it's worked.  She only called me "he" a couple of times, then it was too painful to do it again, lol.  Now, if we could only get a national law passed to that affect!

Teri Anne

Quote from: Melissa on December 04, 2006, 07:10:54 PM
Well, yeah, it's a choice made with ignorance, but it's still a choice.  Another choice is they could ask instead of assume.

Melissa

Honestly Melissa, I think some people don't think, some people are afraid to ask, some people can't see but some people intentionally do it to attempt to degrade you.  I look in their eyes and try to read what's going on in their heads.  When the eyes roll and dart around, you know they are having a hard time with it.

It's up to us to educate them.  If we do it in a respectful and kind manner, the next time they run into that situation they will remember us and hopefully act in a respectful and kind manner.

Deciding to live in the physical gender opposite the one you were born is difficult in this society.  We have to expect resistance.  People don't want their beliefs challenged.  They can't handle it.  And the reason is they have been told something that isn't true or founded in any sort of logic and we represent a challenge to that.  They can't support their beliefs and so they become defensive when we challenge them.  In a real sense, we are asking them why they think your genitals define who you are.  They can't answer that.  Then think maybe they have been misled by everyone they have known and trusted.  They can't handle that.  They then turn and blame you.

Thinking there's something wrong with someone who is uncomfortable with their physical gender is one of the myths that's been passed down for generations.  We are told something by people we trust completely, we take it for gospel and as long as it isn't challenged, everything is fine.  The majority of transgender people have lived their life either partly or completely in hiding.  The myths have been virtually unchallenged.  Therefore they are believed to be fact.  They need to be challenged and on a large scale.

That's one of the reasons I feel so strongly that we need to open the eyes and minds of the public so they can see their beliefs need to be reevaluated.  And the more of us that are out there, representing transgender people all over the world in a good light, the less they will be able to ignore us or act like we don't exist.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 04, 2006, 07:41:52 PM
My best friend offered this deal to me about 4 years ago:  If she calls me "he," she owes me $5.00.  She was, of course, kind to offer and it's worked.  She only called me "he" a couple of times, then it was too painful to do it again, lol.  Now, if we could only get a national law passed to that affect!

Teri Anne

Actually Teri, the City of New York is proposing a law that will allow people to choose their gender, regardless of what's between their legs.  If they are discriminated against because of their choice, laws will be in place to protect them.

The transgender person has to meet certain criteria before the change will be approved.  They have to prove they have lived in their chosen gender for two years and have to provide letters from a therapist and a doctor confirming they are truly the gender they claim to identify with.  Once the change is approved, their vital documents will be altered to reflect the new gender and the change will be permanent.

That a city as large as New Your has made the effort to pass a law such as this is certainly good news.  Little by little we are making positive strides but until each and every one of us feels we are able to live the way we want, openly and free from discrimination, we have to keep working.

Julie

Thanks Julie and everyone.  I've heard all of that before here on Susans, but generally this comes from people in the GLBT community and people I don't associate with regularly.  I think everyone I interact with on a regular basis gets the pronouns wrong.  Every once in a blue moon, there's a couple people at work that slip and then correct themselves immediately (true accident) and that doesn't bother me.  I try not to let the whole thing bother me, but it kind of does like a little sliver would.

Melissa

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 04, 2006, 07:41:52 PM
My best friend offered this deal to me about 4 years ago:  If she calls me "he," she owes me $5.00.  She was, of course, kind to offer and it's worked.  She only called me "he" a couple of times, then it was too painful to do it again, lol.  Now, if we could only get a national law passed to that affect!

Teri Anne

hmmmm.... anyone who calls me a "he" or calls me by my former name has very serious gender issues, and they would get a slap on both cheeks from me.  It has not happened yet, but if it did, I'd not consider it funny at all but very offensive indeed.  Just my thoughts.

tinkerbell :icon_chick:

Julie wrote:

Quote
That's one of the reasons I feel so strongly that we need to open the eyes ... of the public so they can see their beliefs need to be reevaluated. 

Okay Julie... pass me some tooth picks and the nail gun.  I'll do my fair share.

Chin up!

Cindi

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on December 07, 2006, 01:16:36 AM
Julie wrote:

Quote
That's one of the reasons I feel so strongly that we need to open the eyes ... of the public so they can see their beliefs need to be reevaluated. 

Okay Julie... pass me some tooth picks and the nail gun.  I'll do my fair share.

Chin up!

Cindi

Nail guns don't work and neither do toothpics.  However super glue has shown some promise.

Chin is up but I can't see my toes.

Julie

You know, this topic has been a great exercise in fruitility.  I hate to say it folks, but I think the world is coming along.  It can take generations for an idea to catch hold and be accepted.  When I started, it was not terribly popular and that was twenty years ago.  I think things have changed significantly since then. 

Back then, there was active persecution against gay people.  You hardly see that any more.  And I truly believe that in most parts, a totally obvious TV or TS in "drag" barely raises an eyebrow.  People may not like it, but I believe they have developed a tolerance for different people.  And really, that is a huge step.  It took the crusadors a couple of centuries to figure out that what they were doing wasn't going to work.... uh... ooops... lessee... who's still trying to work through that one?

Chin up.... and all that.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on December 07, 2006, 06:10:27 AM
You know, this topic has been a great exercise in fruitility.  I hate to say it folks, but I think the world is coming along.  It can take generations for an idea to catch hold and be accepted.  When I started, it was not terribly popular and that was twenty years ago.  I think things have changed significantly since then. 

Back then, there was active persecution against gay people.  You hardly see that any more.  And I truly believe that in most parts, a totally obvious TV or TS in "drag" barely raises an eyebrow.  People may not like it, but I believe they have developed a tolerance for different people.  And really, that is a huge step.  It took the crusadors a couple of centuries to figure out that what they were doing wasn't going to work.... uh... ooops... lessee... who's still trying to work through that one?

Chin up.... and all that.

Cindi

I have to agree Cindi, society has certainly come along way compared to when I started to venture forth way back when.  Slowly but surely our turn will come, probably not fast enough for some.  Folks are still trying to get their heads around same sex marriage, so i guess we could possibly see a break though for ourselves sometime after that :)

Steph

The more we are seen, the less will be thought of it.  Think about the media sensation caused 50 years ago when a man went overseas and returned a woman.  You couldn't get the media to even bat an eyelash over that today.  But we still have a long way to go.

Even though things like this are posted on a transgender forum that is mostly frequented and read by other TGs, each one of them takes the ideas formed here and carries them into the mainstream.  They may not be up on a soapbox expounding on why it's wrong to discriminate but I'll bet they pass on little seeds of thought that are planted and eventually take hold.  We are all interconnected and, though the process may take a while, eventually things change. 

Imagine what another 20 years will bring.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 07, 2006, 10:24:48 AM
The more we are seen, the less will be thought of it.  Think about the media sensation caused 50 years ago when a man went overseas and returned a woman.  You couldn't get the media to even bat an eyelash over that today.  But we still have a long way to go.Julie

You know, I met Christine Jorgensen shortly before she died during my transitional year. Does that make me feel old?  No.  It really wasn't all that long ago that this tool was given to us.  Patience is hard when it spans a generation or two.  But those who follow us will have a much easier time.  Look at GB and Germany.  Public health care will often carry some of the costs there.  Now if they can only find that gene that causes this thing...

Cindi

Cindi

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on December 07, 2006, 01:54:59 PM
Now if they can only find that gene that causes this thing...

Cindi

Honestly Cindi, now that I am where I am, I would never change being TS.  I have learned so much about people and human nature, prejudice and intolerance, love and compassion, all because I had to endure being TS in a closed minded society.  I can't think of any other way I could have learned all that.  Life has gone from being one of fear and cynicism to something so beautiful that words alone can't describe it.  Had I not been TS my head would still be stuck in the sand, unaware of the beauty around me.  Now I want others to see what I have seen, to open their eyes and take in the real beauty of life.

Julie

Julie, you are now free.   That's the beautiful thing that can come from our experience.

Cindi

Cindi,
   I met Christine Jorgansen a couple of times. It was because she was the customer and I was the meatcutter. She was a beautiful woman then. I used to work in her neighborhood for a while. I was very much in the closet then and only had a wish that I could do what she did. I heard the nasty jokes from others in the store about her. That was in the 70's. I only wish now that I had the courage to stand up to those idiots. I also had the same with Renee Richards. She used to shop every once in a while at the Coasta Mesa store where I worked for a while. The same happened to her.
  I agree with what all of you have said. I have said it many of times, that by the time the college kids get to be my age,57, that Transgender will not be an issue, no more than being left handed is. Left handed was an issue when I was growing up. You see I started out being a lefty and was turned into a righty. I use to be able to be very good with both hands, but now the right has its functions and the left has its functions. Off the subject, sorry.
Sheila

Quote from: Sheila on December 08, 2006, 02:24:14 PM
...I also had the same with Renee Richards...

Reading about Renee Richards in a mid 70's copy of Cosmo stolen from my big sister was the first time I took the label of transsexual upon myself. In an instant, I then knew exactly what I was and what I had to do. I was probably about 12-13 or so...

Girly things came much earlier but all of a sudden, I discovered others like me and there was a clear path to follow. My sister never got her copy of Cosmo back.  :D

 

QuoteI haven't been treated unfairly by society either.  However, I know that this has to do with the fact that "they" don't know I am TS....but what if "they" did?  would "they" accept me and treat me with the same kind of respect?

I have not but in my area i would not hesitate to think i would be beat half to death if not worse, downtown pittsburgh in certain sections of the city acceptable without complete worry-this is assuming you are bar hoping in the gay bars etc...I do not know about shopping at down town Kauffmans (it's gone now but a reference only)
Also about the social smears, i hear it all the time and its just about gays and the way people dress, heck i wore a pick t-shirt under a navy blue polo shirt and this oyung dietition all but called me gay?  she is a girl maybe 24 years old? what is that? Talk about a homophobic youth?
 it sickens me actually to sit with people i work with, peers, employees and hear how they talk and judge people, sickens me and yes it also puts me in a defensive mood cause coming out to these low lifes would not be a pleasing event! (yes i generally leave or excuse myself we do not lunch with the employees for that reason too many conversations can turn ugly and as managers we have moral obligations so we do not mingle technically-but i hear my peers and commanders sayign it to! )

Today in our meeting with our boss, a VP, me the other manager and our director (all women) we are finishing up and the VP a woman as well says well ladies we are done here then she quickly added gentlemen........
Come on......... I dress as a guy at work regardless of the genderisms so i must throw something out there???????
Anyway ranting sorry :icon_weirdface:

Quote from: DawnL on October 29, 2006, 09:41:45 PM
Most of us transition hoping to lead a normal life somewhere down the road.  For some people, that may involve living as
a post-op transsexual, for others, it's trying to live a normal life as a woman (or man) which often requires some level of stealth. 
I don't think anyone who has endured the rigors and horrors of transition is under any obligation to anyone so I find this idea of an
implied debt to the trans community a bit offensive.  If you want to be out, be proud, be an activist, whatever, please do so--I
respect your choice--but please don't suggest that I have a similar obligation.  I don't.  The choice between out and stealth
should be just that, a choice, an entirely personal decision without any expectations or obligations.  I'm a woman with a
transsexual history, not a transsexual, and my history is my business alone.

Dawn

Well said!! I couldn't agree more.

Karen Lyn  :icon_female:

When I finish transitioning, I expect to be one of those lucky girls who can successfully live in stealth mode and I probably will, but I won't totally abandon my community.  I can't see myself being out in public, running into another tgirl, and not at least saying hello, treating her like the valuable human being she is.  I would still participate online b/c I have so many friends in cyberspace and it's the one place a girl living in stealth mode can help girls who are just beginning to transition.
I don't consider living in stealth to be "leaving one closet just to hide in another" b/c I am a woman.  If I'm a woman, how can I be hiding in a closet if I'm just being me? 
I think that it is true that transition could be easier if there were more fully transitioned women who offered advice, but I think that the problem with that is that many of those women, having finally made it to the "other side" finally feel that they are free to live life as they should have always been living it and they leap into it and soak it up.  I'm thrilled for them! 
But here's the biggest thing to me:  As much as I'd like someone to hold my hand through my struggle to transition, sometimes I think that the most lonely times, the most difficult times, are the ones that I learn the most about myself and it's where I'm learning what I'm all about inside.  In many ways, that's the greatest gift of all.
Chrissy

This may be a little off the topic but it's why I live mostly stealth.
1. I used to work in a call center and was out to the staff. We hired a new person who happened to be a lesbian. She was hitting on me until she found out I was TS then her whole attitude changed. 
2. While attending classes at one of the local colleges, I was outed to one of my classmates. She immediately switch pronoun usage. It was very embarrassing but she wouldn't stop.
3. My boyfriend's daughters HATE me.

So, as a rule, I'm not out to anyone I don't absolutely have to be. Why risk the pain?

Karen Lyn     :icon_female:

Quote from: KarenLyn on February 03, 2007, 12:22:50 AM
This may be a little off the topic but it's why I live mostly stealth.
1. I used to work in a call center and was out to the staff. We hired a new person who happened to be a lesbian. She was hitting on me until she found out I was TS then her whole attitude changed. 
2. While attending classes at one of the local colleges, I was outed to one of my classmates. She immediately switch pronoun usage. It was very embarrassing but she wouldn't stop.
3. My boyfriend's daughters HATE me.

So, as a rule, I'm not out to anyone I don't absolutely have to be. Why risk the pain?

Karen Lyn     :icon_female:

Karen, I totally agree with you.  I attempted to be out more and was only hurt by it.  It DOES NOT change the way of thinking of those who are bigoted towards us.  All it does is leave us vulnerable to their attacks.

Melissa

Quote from: KarenLyn on February 03, 2007, 12:22:50 AM...
Why risk the pain?
...

To raise awareness that we honest to goodness DO exist and ^*gasp* are rather boring to boot.

Quote from: Melissa on February 03, 2007, 10:00:33 AM...
It DOES NOT change the way of thinking of those who are bigoted towards us.
...

True enough but it can wake the poor folks who heard the term once and rolled back over and went to sleep.

Quote from: Melissa on February 03, 2007, 10:00:33 AM...
All it does is leave us vulnerable to their attacks.
...

Let them try...


We DO exist, this condition hurts VERY bad. Some nincompoop doesn't change that. A nice person does not change that. What might possibly maybe change that is for someone to have that brief favorable impression and NOT freak when their daughter says she is a boy. It MIGHT just ease some child's pain and NOT have to go though this hell hole of a life in denial.  Some little girl MIGHT get help before Testosterone has a chance to rake her body over the coals.


^*shrug*

QuoteLet them try...

Ah, heh. *makes note never to follow Kim into an alley*

Last night Sandy and I were out grocery shopping and on the way home I thought of this thread.  I told her I knew I had implied that I didn't like the idea of going from one closet to another but I wanted to be stealth as much as possible.  I said, "I don't have to go around broadcasting to the world I'm trans to avoid feeling like I'm in another closet.  I just want to live my life as a normal woman because that's how I feel inside." 

It's taken me a while to dissect the whole going back into hiding thing.  I go out and do everyday things.  I see myself no different than anyone else.  If someone clocks me, so what?  It doesn't bother me.  But I will admit when I get checked out as a woman I feel pretty good.  So I obviously enjoy being stealth. 

I know I've still got a long way to go and that this is a learning process.  So many things about the way I think have changed and I'm sure this will continue.  I still believe we need good representatives out there and I believe those who pass the best are the ones who will represent us the best.  We live in a very visual society and when our physical presence doesn't shock or offend it makes it easier to get people to listen to us and take us seriously. 

I'm extremely grateful for those who put their faces out in public for the benefit of everyone else but I am not at that point... yet.  And I may never be.  But it's important that, regardless of what level we choose, each and every one of us represent trans people in the best way we can, whether we are in stealth or not.

Julie

Quote from: Arias on February 03, 2007, 11:05:39 AM

QuoteLet them try...

Ah, heh. *makes note never to follow Kim into an alley*

LOL, ditto.  Some of us are not quite as strong as Kim. :)

Melissa

Julie,
   I like what you say. I'm more out than most, but this is what I want to do. Why I say that you should not be totally stealth is that you should not deny your passed. Most people have done a lot and should be recognized for their accomplishments and not try to hide them because it might bring up the past. We all have history and to hide it back in the closet is just as bad as hiding what I call my transsexual days. You are right in that we don't need to hang a sign on our backside saying we were once a male/female, but if it should come up in certain areas, different for some, then we shouldn't deny our past. Live it and own it. We are who we are. Live for the future, but don't forget the past.
Love Sheila

call me selfsish, but as soon as i can go stealth, im going without a backward glance.... This has been torturous enough without carrying it arround forever... i dont want to be treated as trans if i dont have to, and i dont concider it another closet... because im being myself. id just not be talking about my past, a fairly normal thing...
Ill continue my roll as T officer for my students union, but without telling everyone from the rooftops 'Im a transexual, come mock me!'

Weather more TSs going stealth is 'harming' T visiblility, i dont know
but i consider stealth as a right...
and ill have it.

Quotecall me selfsish, but as soon as i can go stealth, im going without a backward glance.... This has been torturous enough without carrying it arround forever.

i hear ya.  some ts women i know pass so well that no one treats them as trans ;)

http://www.donnarose.com/Stealth.htm

Katia, thanks for the reference to the article.  It was very well written and points out all of the issues.  I don't think that any of us go totally stealth.  There's always some part of our life that is known to someone.

For everyone here who can go stealth and be happy... I wish you the very best... for you have earned it.  You owe nothing to anyone except yourself.  Do it.

Chin up

Cindi

Thanks you very much Katia for the link.

I am find the whole website just perfect.

Alice

Non-disclosed, is the only way I could live, although I don't really like the word stealth, becasue it seems to me to connotate somesort of deception, or hiding, and for me keeping my history and and backstory private is not deceptive, lying, or hiding anything. In my own opion, living non-disclosed, assimilated, and un-explained is more than just physcial passing, its a total way of life, its about tending to your history, your past, as much as it is about living your future, and it can get very complicated and oftentimes very lonley. Its more than about being "undected" in one situation or another. I have oftentimes heard so many times when I TS will say something like, oh we went the other night and I was totally stealth, or I am stealth with that person, but not them, or I am mostly stealth. Just in my own opion, these are just situational undetected moments, and this is really quite diffrent than living assimilated and un-disclosed.

Living forward to never look back, takes a lot of courage and determination, and it also takes a lot of sacrifice, and it does'nt only depend on ones abilty to pass perfectly physically. It takes the willigness, and wherewereathall to leave it all behind, even family in some cases. It also takes the mental dispostion, that this is who you are and what you are and you have always been this person, it was you, the little girl that learned to ride a bike. You have to re-socialze yourself to the point that you can mold and blend yourself into any everday female expereince, but at the same time ther shoudl never be any cause to lie about something. You have to learn language and semantics, and beable to manage your life and your narrative, without getting yourself caught up in a web of lies and deception, becuase this would not be a very good life, and in my own opion this would cause a great deal of mental anguish. 

Its all about living a woman's life totally and completly, without explanation, and really anyone is capable of doing this regardless of physicality. But for many its not possible, regardless of wheter they "pass" perfectly, or barley get by. Becuase many are so rooted and connected to their family and freinds that it would be emotionally impossible, and possibly devestating to break those ties, and this is okay, there is nothing wrong with living a compartmentalized "stealth" life either.

For some living this type of "stealth" works for them, for some the only way is assimilated, non-disclosed, and un-explained, and these are two diffrent ways to live, with diffrent characteristics, and diffrent consquences.

-pass-

Quote from: Melissa on October 29, 2006, 09:53:06 PM
Keep in mind that stealth/out is not a binary choice.  You can find a balance in between.  I am living some portions of my life stealth and some out.

I totally agree.  I'm probably 70-80% stealth.  If I could be 100% stealth without always feeling like I needed to look over my shoulder, I would be.  I was for a number of years, but it made me paranoid.  "Do you think they know?"  Getting to a point where I'm mostly stealth, but it's not life-shattering if someone finds out, was a lot healthier for me.

Look, I didn't grow up feeling that I should be a transsexual.  I'm not male-to-transsexual, I'm male-to-female.  If I thought that transitioning was going to result in me having a transsexual role in the world instead of a female one, I would never would have transitioned.  And I'd probably be dead.

Fear is bad.  And trying to be 100% stealth, and placing so much importance in people never knowing... that's bad.  But I should have been born a girl, and I want to spend my life coming as close to what I should have had as I can.  As far as responsibility for new girls... yeah, when I went to the TS women's support group in NY way back when, it was nice to see that there were normal women there.  And after I'd had surgery and stopped going, when I got a call from a friend asking me to take a new girl to a meeting, I was happy to do it.  And I've been to a few meetings here where I live as well.  But you can't live for other people, you know?  You have to live for yourself.

  I avoided this thread for quite awhile now because it brought up a painful memory that I normally push way down deep.  It's not an advocation of either stealth or not stealth simply a story about a friend.

  Several years ago I frequented a "TG" chat room.  I made several wonderful friends online from around the world.  One day I got an IM from someone in the chat room I had never seen before,who said she lived in OK.  It was one of those things, I assumed, where somebody assumes because you are from the same city you are automatically friends.  When I looked at her profile I saw her pic and was a bit confused at first.  She was obviously a GG, a beautiful one at that,  and had no TG references in the profile to make me think any different.

  She explained to me that she was actually TS and had been living stealth for many years.  I remember thinking she would have a pretty difficult time convincing others she was TS.  She said that she saw we lived in the same city and asked if I knew of any TS support groups where she could attend.  She said that she had reached a point in her life that she felt she needed to give back.  I told her of the support group I was going to at the time and she thanked me.

  We chatted many more times before the next support meeting rolled around.  I was truly amazed by her and we quickly became friends.  The evening of the meeting I arrived and walked in.  I gave a quick glance around the room to see who was there (it changed so often it was difficult to keep up) and sat down. It wasn't until I sat and looked directly across the table that I recognized her.  I assumed, on my initial glance, she was one of the occasional SO's that come with thier partners.  Our eyes locked immediately and she smiled as if to say "Hi, remember me?".  The meeting progressed quickly so I didn't have a chance to really talk to her one on one.  She quickly became the focus of the group answering questions about transition, the difficulties she experienced and how she coped with them. 

  Finally at the end of the meeting we had a chance to talk privately.  She explained that living in stealth had been the best thing for her initially because she needed to build a foundation for her life.  Something that GG's have built throughout their lives.  When she had that foundation built she felt comfortable enough to step off of it.  I understood what she meant as I had thought about the same basic principle many, many times. 

  We continued our friendship for the next year or so.  I remember at Thanksgiving she invited me to dinner at her house.  She had invited several of the girls and guys from the group whose families had turned them away.  I declined as I had "family" to cook for at home and wouldn't be able to get away.  She would occasionally take in a 'stray' girl who had been put out by her family and had no where to live.  She would feed them, clothe them and help them find jobs and places to live.  I know money was very tight for her and her boyfriend but that didn't seem to bother her. 

  Not long after Thanksgiving, I believe, I recieved a phone call saying that she had been hospitalized with an inoperable brain aneurism.  Another friend who visited said she looked really bad and was hooked up to all kinds of machines.  I couldn't bring myself to see her like that and I put off visiting right then...I regret my decision every day because two days later she died.

  Now, as I said before, this isn't a pro or con post for stealth just an example of one womans life and the difference she made.

Quote from: BrandiOK on February 13, 2007, 10:52:43 AM
  Not long after Thanksgiving, I believe, I recieved a phone call saying that she had been hospitalized with an inoperable brain aneurism.  Another friend who visited said she looked really bad and was hooked up to all kinds of machines.  I couldn't bring myself to see her like that and I put off visiting right then...I regret my decision every day because two days later she died.

  Now, as I said before, this isn't a pro or con post for stealth just an example of one womans life and the difference she made.

Oh wow.  I'm sorry Brandi. *Hugs*  That's awful.  I'm glad she was able to provide some goodness into the world before that happened.

Melissa

Pass,
  I like the terms you used. Un-disclosed is how I guess I would present myself. I'm not hiding, but not telling either. If it is important enough, I will talk about it to people. I don't introduce myself as Sheila the Transsexual. For one thing I'm not a TS anymore, I'm a whole woman. I do like the terms though.
Sheila

QuoteI told her at the point that I decided to begin transition.  I was moving to another city (for obvious reasons) and I needed to explain why before I did.  I had a copy of "True Selves" that I told her I would give her but I didn't have it with me that day.  I told her I would send it to her if she wanted it...I think asked what it was about and then changed the subject.  My sister told me at one point that my mom had watched several shows on transsexuals on TV and was "trying" to understand but <long pause> it was going to take time (translation: She doesn't believe any of the information she's seen so far.)

  Skip forward five years (maybe longer...I can't even remember anymore) and no phone calls, letters, Emails or even invitations to family holiday get togethers which were basically mandatory before I came out.  Even my sisters, who still talked to me after coming out to them, eventually ended all contact with me.  I think my mom finally got to them and they turned to the "dark" side (sarcastically funny).  Maybe when they realized that this wasn't something that was going to go away they gave up.  I don't know...I can only guess. 

  Before I left I gave them my new address, phone number and made sure they had my Email and IM accounts.  I knew early on my relationship with my mom was doomed as I wrote before (she's froma a conservative Catholic family) but I never thought my sisters would abandon me like they did.  My father died when I was 13 and my step father is an ultra conservative mean natured person so if it was discussed with him I'm sure that made matters worse.

  One of my morning rituals is to go through the obituaries in thier area to make sure they are all still alive.  I'm fairly certain that if there was a death in the family I wouldn't be informed.  The embaressement of having me potentially show up for a family funeral would be too much for them to handle I'm sure.

BrandiOk, I hope that you do not mind that I took this post of yours from another thread, but it was a wonderful example of something even though it is very sad and actually made me cry. I know your seperation from your family was not voluntary, but I just wanted to use your words and your story here as an example of the sacrfice that is undertaken by some that are searching for a total "stealth" life, Although I prefer un-diclosed, assimilated, un-explained. But oftentimes, this is what it takes, total sepration, as if one were in a witness protection program, or was in some sort of self induced amnesia.

To forget about our family and freinds, and other loved ones is a hard thing to do, to sperate ourselves so far from a previous history and begin our narrative from a new point with either zero, or a very edited backstory takes a lot of courage and self understanding, and I would say most are not prepared nor even want to imagine, such a path.

I had actually started out wanting to do that very thing. My plan was to leave my family and everyone behind and start my new life thousands of miles away, but I could not go through with it. I now live 100% assimilated, and un-explained in my public life, but I do have my family around me, and even though they are 100% accepting and commited to supporting my new life and my narrative, there can still sometimes be thin ice to navigate around when it comes to remebering my history, when I bring starngers around. For this reason, I am living "compartmentalized Stealth", and for many advocates and beleivers of assimilation, and non-disclosure, this is a compromise.

-pass-   

QuoteI'm not hiding, but not telling either. If it is important enough, I will talk about it to people. I don't introduce myself as Sheila the Transsexual.

I agree shelia. I figure that if I am in a situation or involved with someone, and my backstory, or my history is of a possible life threating or life changing action, that could directly effect my current life, or its future, than I may be obligated to disclose, but thats the only time.

-pass-

Well, I feel completely free to gab about my past.  I use gender neutral terms and can talk about my past as freely as I choose.  That way I don't feel like I'm hiding anything, yet I'm not giving myself away.  I never did much in the way of sports except a little basketball...but I'm on the tall side for a woman and plenty of girls played around that time.  I was in cubscouts and boyscouts.  I might say I did the scout thing or something and let them think girlscouts.  If I mention my wife that I'm divorcing, I say my ex.  If I talk about when I was little, I say "when I was a kid".  I did go into the army briefly, but there were plenty of women there.  So, I am able to talk about my past without putting any gender context to it.  I guess my way of thinking is, if somebody does confront me and ask, I can say I never lied.

Melissa

My current take on things:


I think the legwork with stealthness needs to be done before it happens, a while ago I asked all my friends to remove any and everything related to my transness from day to day conversation and that if I wanted to talk about things I'd do so on a one on one basis, no one messes up pronouns anymore my birthname is all but forgotten and they all accept me for who I am, the fact that they know has little to no bearing on my day to day life so as I make more and more friends things are more than anything smooth, talking about my past nothing really stands out I can talk about it all pretty openly other than one story I used to like to tell which an important part of which happened in the boys loos.


New friends I make I just don't tell unless there's good reason to, I've told a couple but they're people I got intimate with and both had the same reaction of surprise "what, really? I didn't notice", I've only been sired three times since going FT once in a shoe shop I asked for someones attention and as they were turning they said "yes sir" as they haddn't seen me yet then they corrected themselves once on the phone to microsoft and once by a really bitchy receptionist when I was getting my name changed.

I know I can go stealth and I will as it's convenient in my life, people I get intimate with I will tell but otherwise there's little point, I don't think of myself as trans on a day to day basis it only pops up when I get intimate with someone and I'm reminded of my limits and when I'm posting here or annother forum where i'm fairly out at or chatting on IRC.

It's definitely a deal with it as it happens type thing.

Really, stealth is the best way to go if you can pull it off.  Many can't.  I see myself wanting to be stealth because quite honestly I don't want to deal with people's ignorance.  So many people believe what they want and nothing you say or do will change their mind.  So rather than bang my head against a brick wall, I'll opt for stealth.

But if we all came out at once and joined together as a force (especially as a voter's group) we'd get the respect we deserve much more quickly.  People only need to see us as commonplace and not freaks of nature.  In time.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on February 16, 2007, 11:26:06 AM
But if we all came out at once and joined together as a force (especially as a voter's group) we'd get the respect we deserve much more quickly.  People only need to see us as commonplace and not freaks of nature.  In time.

Yep, very true, but it's not going to happen.  Time and winning small battles are really the only way we'll ever achieve this.  For every person who transitions on the job, there will be hundreds of people that get to know a trans person.  We will win eventually.

Melissa

QuoteQuote from: Julie Marie on Today at 11:26:06 AM
But if we all came out at once and joined together as a force (especially as a voter's group) we'd get the respect we deserve much more quickly.  People only need to see us as commonplace and not freaks of nature.  In time.

QuoteYep, very true, but it's not going to happen.  Time and winning small battles are really the only way we'll ever achieve this.  For every person who transitions on the job, there will be hundreds of people that get to know a trans person.  We will win eventually.

Melissa

This is just my own opion and thoughts, but would'nt this be defeating the purpose. I mean at first we are talking about "stealth", but then we are talking about being reconized and respected as being transwoman. If we are transitioned and living assimilated without disclosure, living women's lives as just females, than why would we need, or why would there be a need for acceptance and respect as trans women in our public lives..If we are living undected and and normal un-explained lives within our community, why would we need to have special acceptance as something that we are trying to get away from.

Just in my own case, I transitioned so that I could just live a normal everday female life, and thats the life I live. It does'nt mean that I don't care about or that I don't want to help other transwomen acheive the same goal, or at least I can show them that it is possible, it just means that I am not looking for any special place as a "transwoman". I am girl, a female just like any other and thats the way I live my life, without explanation and special request.

-pass-   

True enough pass.  I don't limit myself to only trans-friendly places.  I think the ones who will benefit primarily from this are those who do not pass well and have to be out anyways.  What I was referring to was that if you look male and are transitioning to female, people *are* going to see you change.  It doesn't happen overnight.  It's nice to transition in an accepting environment that is conducive to your success.  Once you can fully pass as a female, there really isn't as much of a need for this anymore, except it IS one less worry when you know people won't violently attack you if they ever caught wind of your past.

Melissa

I agree melissa  :)

smiles,
-pass-

Quote from: passiflora on February 16, 2007, 02:08:38 PM
If we are transitioned and living assimilated without disclosure, living women's lives as just females, than why would we need, or why would there be a need for acceptance and respect as trans women in our public lives..If we are living undected and and normal un-explained lives within our community, why would we need to have special acceptance as something that we are trying to get away from.

-pass-   

Not everyone can pass.  If all of us could pass after transitioning this entire thread would be moot.  While I don't expect everyone to feel they have to support the entire community, I just can't turn my back on those who have no hope of ever passing.  My heart goes out to them.  Many will never choose to transition because they feel there's no hope for them.  They will live out their lives sad, depressed or even suicidal. 

Society has to change for them to have hope.  And society will only change when they understand we are just ordinary people with an extraordinary challenge.  If all of us who can pass lived totally in stealth society may never come to accept the rest of us because they will only see a man in drag.  We live in a visual society and the first impression we make is usually made before we even have a chance to speak.

We see talk shows where the crowd oohs and aahs in amazement when someone who passes completely says they were born male.  But when a masculine MTF walks out on stage the crowd is often seen snickering and laughing.  Society has to understand there's no difference in the feelings inside the passable transwoman than there is inside the non-passable transwoman, except the sadness of never passing.

While it's great so many here can totally pass, it wouldn't hurt to imagine what your life would be like if you had no hope of passing.  How would you feel then?

Julie

QuoteWhile it's great so many here can totally pass, it wouldn't hurt to imagine what your life would be like if you had no hope of passing.  How would you feel then?

Hi Julie, I understand this, and I am thankful for my good fortunes. I was just commenting mainily on the act of "stealth" itself. I agree, we need to help everyone and I am all for that. And an open minded accepting society is much better than a closed mean one. I know I sometimes take things for granted and forget stuff, but I wish good fortunes for everyone, and will do all I can to help and support in a sort of behind the scenes way.

-pass-

This is a good post julie and a clip of your most recent statement is appreciated by me anyway...

QuoteNot everyone can pass.  If all of us could pass after transitioning this entire thread would be moot.  While I don't expect everyone to feel they have to support the entire community, I just can't turn my back on those who have no hope of ever passing.  My heart goes out to them.  Many will never choose to transition because they feel there's no hope for them.  They will live out their lives sad, depressed or even suicidal. 

Damn... maybe a less advanced form of stealth in itself?
Consider the butterfly?
Luv
Ricki

Awww you pass well Ricki,

I love the collar, just keep away from my cat.

Buffy

Buff i was meaning to ask you, but you answered my "?" it is a kitty cat...
Hmmmm hunny is to young to appreciate the sensual nature of a cat just yet..
Gulp.. i hope she never finds out either, hehe...
I like your kitty!
You did not have to drug her to lay like that did you?
hehe
luv
ricki

Lol Riki... Aaron is my Male persian,that I rescued from a black plastic bag out of a dumpster when he was about 8 weeks old.

He is totally stupid, has no brains what so ever and follows me everywhere when I am home.He tries to sleep on my head at night.

He is in full Winter "puff" right now and looks like a sheep!

He doesn't need drugging, he lies on my computer desk like that only because I wont let him lay on my laptop..

Hunny is cute btw, I used to be a dog person, but transition does bring about some strange changes.

Buffy

I should of known that wry smile a male kitty!  Even more fierce..
thanks..
hunny is 8 mos not full grown yet,  She's lovey very lovey but starting to come into her own and we have not house broken her yet a major issue.. I am not going to lay newspappers down the rest of my life..
Ugghhhh :icon_blah:
Sweet story to have rescued the cat!  I like that a happy ending for him!
I believe these things come back to us somehow in kind from our creator or angels or guardians when we do things like that!
hugs and kisses
Ricki
P.S. the breeder wanted 500.00 for this slobbering hunk of love!... :icon_crazy:

The problem out there is people just see whats on the out and have never took the time to talk about ts issues and we are in the minority. I whole heartly understand y people decide not to transition. But both paths have dire consiquences. Those that pass are very lucky they can lead a nornal life.

Quote from: Lucy on February 17, 2007, 09:34:44 AM
Those that pass are very lucky they can lead a nornal life.

And all of us need to remember that.  Too often we forget those who transition but have extreme difficulty passing or, maybe even worse, those who will never take the path to transition because they feel they will never pass. 

After spending so many decades feeling like that, I'll never forget the depressing hopelessness.  If there's any way I can give support to those less able, I want to do it.  It's for them that I feel the importance of at least some of us getting out in public and representing us in a way that will make the general public realize we are ordinary people just like them.  And when that time comes that I feel I can be one of those people, I will.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on February 22, 2007, 10:44:51 AM

Quote from: Lucy on February 17, 2007, 09:34:44 AM
Those that pass are very lucky they can lead a nornal life.

And all of us need to remember that.  Too often we forget those who transition but have extreme difficulty passing or, maybe even worse, those who will never take the path to transition because they feel they will never pass. 

After spending so many decades feeling like that, I'll never forget the depressing hopelessness.  If there's any way I can give support to those less able, I want to do it.  It's for them that I feel the importance of at least some of us getting out in public and representing us in a way that will make the general public realize we are ordinary people  just like them.  And when that time comes that I feel I can be one of those people, I will.

Julie

Never Ordinary, we are extrodinary people who overcome a serious condition.....Why we do this the general public may never understand, Hopefully one day they will accept.

For those of us who do live in stealth, lucky enough to pass, I guess we can count our blessings everyday. For those who have the real fear that they may not pass, live in stealth, The world does need to be more understanding, change is slow, but progressing.

Buffy

Quote from: Buffy on February 22, 2007, 11:16:47 AM
Never Ordinary, we are extrodinary people who overcome a serious condition.....Why we do this the general public may never understand, Hopefully one day they will accept.

Buffy

I said something similar

Quote from: Julie Marie on February 16, 2007, 04:25:01 PM
we are just ordinary people with an extraordinary challenge. 

And our serious condition is living in a myopic, closed minded, prejudiced society.  There's nothing wrong with us.  We are creatures of God (Nature) and God (Nature) doesn't make mistakes but man certainly does and man created this society.

Julie

This has been an interesting discussion which I have enjoyed very much.  The timing is good in that I have been giving this a lot of thought lately.  I think on an individual level each person has the right to choose what is best for them in how they choose to present and live in the "world."  And I fully support whatever decision people make in their lives. Maybe because I have lately been reading Kate Bornstein and Leslie Feinberg, my view on passing, SRS, pre-opt, post-opt, male, female, feminism, masculinity, passing, etc. is taking a somewhat different turn.

I have been thinking that "passing" is buying into the gender binary and is not a positive goal.  In the gender binary society uses humiliation and violence to keep people in their pink or blue boxes (lives), and god help anyone that dares to stray from what is deemed acceptable.  This means that feminine men, masculine woman, transgenders, transexuals, cross-dressers, lesbians, gays, bi-sexuals, genderqueers, and countless others who don't fit or choose to not live by the strict rules of conduct for men or women will be ostricized, riduculed, and risk violence.

I am beginning to believe that the gender binary is responsible for transphobia, homophobia, violence against woman, male privilege, unequal pay for equal work, for the sociatal belief that men are inherently better than woman.

My goal when I started this journey was to pass, now I'm not so sure.  I get angry thinking about how our young trans children are bullied, abandoned by their families, and made to feel inferior.  I get upset that any gender variant person, human being has to always look over their shoulder in fear of losing their job, home, family, friends, and life.  And for me the concept of stealth and passing is buying into and giving power to the system that allows this to happen.

To answer the question from my individual perspective I do believe that living in stealth does hurt everyone, it limits choices people can freely make to live their lives however they choose as long as it doesn't hurt or diminish anyone else.  I am a veteran who joined the military in the belief I was serving my country and defending individual liberty and freedom.  But what I am learning is that there are limits on those freedoms, the most basic of which is to live a life free of fear and degradation, if we don't choose to live a very narrow definition of what is a man or a woman.

I don't know if this makes any sense or if anyone agrees with me, but for me, today this is how I see it.  Who knows, I am still thinking this through and I don't know how I will see it in the future, I am continuing to evolve and this is part of the process for me.

I wish eveyone best wishes and good fortune.

Maya

I make myself known to my friends, but when i go out, i dont wish to announce 'hey im a transexual' i dont mind buying into the gender binary, and its not gender, its a sexual binary... and its changeing before our eyes... metrosexuality
and over the summer, i spent time with army officers, whom had the fashion of cream chinos and pink shirts... totaly masculine, but wore pink... so i dont think its so rigid these days, but i for one, am female, and i want to be seen as that, not as transexual, im sorry, but regardless of the problems of others, once im stealth, ill stay there, i shall not outmyself simply to spread the gospel as such....
its like being cured of cancer, then going round telling everyone you have it, so as to raise awareness...
to me, once im stealth, thats it, im nolonger transexual, im a woman, pure and simple, im fixed, and i shall remain as such...

QuoteThose that pass are very lucky they can lead a nornal life.

Well perfect........ ::)
But when everyone defines "normal" either a different way or in their own sense of reality..
then how many are really leading perfectly normal lives?
I do not know.......  ??? i know i am in the raw form of stealth, very very raw!
Ricki

Ricki,

There is no such thing as a normal life.  It's just a little secret that we can share between us to really piss off the rest of the world ;)

Cindi

Cindi..
you have enlightened me!
in honor of this i will crack open a fresh bottle of Ketel One Vodka for you this evening!
:icon_drunk:
hugs
Ricki

Enjoy it!

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on February 24, 2007, 03:28:31 AM
Ricki,

There is no such thing as a normal life. 

that's true, yet we can try to make [it] as [normal] as possible ;)

I try to not live a "normal" life.  I just try to enjoy my life.  Once the GID thing was out of the way for the most part (cause you never can really park that animal), I started pursuing my interests and having fun. 

I don't even think about what a normal life is.  Karen sent me a private message about a documentary running its course in America.... 80 million poeple purportedly support the views in the film... If they are normal, I'm not. ;)

Have fun, be excellent to each other.

Cheers

Cindi

There is stealth which is completely reinventing oneself and rejecting the past which may include family and friends and there is stealth which is living without broadcasting the fact that you are TS.

Caroline

Quote from: carolinejeo on April 13, 2011, 06:32:08 AM
There is stealth which is completely reinventing oneself and rejecting the past which may include family and friends and there is stealth which is living without broadcasting the fact that you are TS.

Caroline

Why did you necro for that? O.o

There seems to be a positive correlation between a transwoman's class privilege and the likelihood that she identifies as a woman more generally and not a transwoman specifically. To erase the "trans" part of my womanhood is to erase the discrimination I experience, the ways in which I'm oppressed and disadvantaged, the pain and suffering and misery that stems from being trapped in the wrong body, the erasure of our people from the history books, the refusal of society to acknowledge our very existence, the amount of time and money I have to spend fixing my body to alleviate this pain and all the things I can't afford as a result. And it's to erase the fact that it is not only cismen who exclude and oppress us, but also ciswomen as well. There are some who live in extremely dangerous areas. I would rather have them live a life of stealth until we've rectified our society's problems, because I don't want to see transwomen and transmen losing their lives. However, for those of us who live in less dangerous areas, we have an obligation to our people to create a world where they won't be oppressed simply for not being born into a narrow-minded, ignorant, oversimplification of sex and gender. For those of you who view yourselves as ciswomen or cismen, ask yourself why you're participating in a forum for people who are transgender? Is it because you're an ally? Or is it perhaps because you're in denial.

P.S. I'm in uber b itch mode right now.

This is amazing- this thread is like walking through a ghost town  :-\

Personally, I like when people necro a GOOD older post. IF there is relevent dialogue, why start a new thread and rehash the exact same discussion?

Threadromancy is a crime in the eyes of the flying spagetti monster.

it was likely resurrected because SarahB posted a link to it in a new thread on basically the same issue. The discussion should be continued there rather than here:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,96760.0.html

Hi Fariygirl

No I did not resurrect this thread 'Carolinejeo' did.  I just happened to notice it when it came up as a recent post.  You are right we should continue the discussion here (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,96760.0.html)

Warm regards
Sarah B

Unfortunately it appears the newer thread got out of hand because I found it locked.  If I recall correctly, this thread was locked at some point too. 

Simple logic tells me if every TG, that is every person who crosses the gender boundary because it is part of who they are, came out as TG the world would at first be shocked but eventually would realize that, like all irrational fears, there was really nothing to be afraid of.  And I believe if every TG fought for equal rights, we'd have them a hell of a lot sooner.

The problem is there can be a steep personal price to pay for coming out.  I know this personally.

For decades I lived in fear of anyone finding out I was TG.  Since transition, most of the people who knew me before now treat me differently.  I also lost a job I loved.  But inside, the battle that had raged for over 50 years has ended. 

I don't walk around with a neon sign over my head that says I'm TG but I also don't live in fear of anyone finding out.  And if I'm asked to stand before a crowd and speak on behalf of supporting equal rights for TGs I will gladly do it. 

Overall, my life is better now than it was before.  I guess you can't have it all but I'm okay with that.

I more or less feel the same way Julie does. Once I had transitioned, I immediately went "stealth" and immersed myself with a group of friends that had absolutely no idea I was trans, and then eventually I ended up dating a guy as well that had no idea. And eventually it started to eat away at me until I could no longer take it, because I hate lying to the people I care about most, so I came out to my boyfriend at that time and even then I couldn't tell him the whole truth, but he was okay with what I did tell him.

Today, I am a lot more comfortable with who I am and I embrace that part of me because I don't think I would have been the same person if I were born a natal female. Granted I wouldn't hold a huge sign proclaiming my TG status, however if I were asked by say a close friend then I wouldn't deny it.  However, for anybody else, I don't feel the need to owe anyone any kind of explanation.

I am me and that's that. :P

I can't say I'm stealth but im no longer carrying the trans torch either. The point of transition for me was to get the monkey off my back and just "be" I don't go out of my way to hide the old me. Heck if you came. My home there's pictures all over the place of the old me.

I think to some degree it can hurt the community as a whole but to me, my well being is what's important. That doesn't mean if someone dealing with gender issues needs help that I wouldn't help them, I always will. I just refuse to be labeled for the rest of my life.

I don't think a birth defect should automatically enroll you in an activist role. I think people who want to live stealth should be able to do so. If someone who is planning to go stealth needs my help, I will help as much as I can and when they vanish, I wish them luck. However, there still remains a fact that it does give us less numbers and strength as a whole. While I wish they could help I would never want to make them feel guilty about it. Go live your life!

Expression is often the first step on the road to identity.

Quote from: Valeriedances on April 23, 2011, 09:12:00 AM
Living in stealth (not disclosing your past) is a protection against society's issue with expression. Extreme violence is a terrible price to pay.

It's further complicated where identity with a gender means your not truly stealth when your living your identity.

Its a Gordian knot.

Not totally, there just becomes a point where you just want to live life. I've always believed in pay it forward and I've done my best to do that but at the end of the day I just want to be Karyn and it sometimes just becomes tiresome to be linked to being trans. In fact at this point I'm not sure I consider myself trans anymore. I'm just me.

I get the idea that in order to get protections for the masses we need to be united. But I also believe to more normal we live our lives the better chance we have of shedding those old stereotypes, so it becomes a double edged sword.

Up here we have a support group that would cost me $40 to attend. They want post ops to attend to support the younger newbies at their different stages. It's hard for me to substantiate spending $40 on a session just to support someone else's transition. That $40 can go towards my drawn out electrolysis. I think to some degree this is another reason more post ops are stealth as well. Maybe of these therapists dropped those fees for people like me we would want to help out even more ..just a thought.

Sorry of this bounces around, I just have different areas of stealth popping into my head as a type..lol

Quote from: tekla on April 23, 2011, 08:58:18 AM
Expression is often the first step on the road to identity.

And it has to be.  There is no other way.  I started HRT and living full-time on the same day.  My only shield was that at that point, I really didn't care what anyone else thought; I wasn't doing it for them.  As time went on and I became more comfortable in the expression of my true identity,  there came a point where I was only ever seen as female, even when dressed in boy clothes with no makeup.  After that milestone as it were, I was never misgendered.  More time passed; "RLE" just became "RL", and I thrived on it.

I've always readily admitted my past when it was necessary I do so, for instance immigrating to Australia there was no way to hide it because of all the past information that's required.  But I no longer volunteer that information to anyone who doesn't need to know (my choice who that is), and that doesn't make it some kind of nonsense "lie of omission"- heck I don't go around telling everyone my credit card numbers either.  A wise friend once told me, "You never have to lie, but you don't have to tell everything you know either."

No single one of us is going to change the world; we work together to do it in little bits and pieces, and I feel I've done my part along the way.  I know I've helped others on their journey because they've told me so.  Don't forget there's also this: If we define community as those men and women who share our similar life circumstances as it regards being transsexual, then we all need personal help too.  Go look in the post-op forum- lots of questions and answers in there, a lot of help given and received.  Helping the community isn't always about getting in the general public's face and telling everything you know.

People still use "retard" as a derogatory term;  people still use the "n" word;  people still say "->-bleeped-<-got" and, "That's so gay."  Realistically, though there is progress there will always be those who are different and those who will see that difference as an excuse to hate and discriminate.  Some politicians elevate it to a fine art form.  I'd rather spend my efforts on helping others like me on their journey to completeness.  I am grateful to those others who blaze the trail for us, but we also need support in the ranks.  I'll live my happy little functionally stealth life and look for opportunities to help where I can, and if that isn't good enough for some then sorry, but it's the best I have to offer.

I had originally planned to go stealth after transition and walk away from my Facebook account, etc and just bring along the friends that I really wanted to. I viewed it like the change from highschool to college, moving to a new state, or changing jobs. You bring some people but leave others.

More recently though I have been giving more thought to just leaving it open and if people want to accept me great, if not then fine. I recently decided to shut down one of my businesses where I am highly visible just because I can't stand people seeing me move through the transition process. It is a very masculine focused business and I really don't need to hear the "guys" try to put me back in the box for my hair, etc. People are already starting to not recognize me or ask me what is wrong. LOL I tell them weight loss.

In the area where I live there are no TG resources so I have had to find them all. I have though that I could create a simple web page for the area listing the resources I've found and online resources like susans. I find it hard to believe that in a metro area with 800,000 people there are only two TG's (including me). The local LGBT group doesn't even know what the T stands for IMO.

So I really don't know how I can help at this point other than trying to support others on the same path as me but some day if I need to go talk to the Governor if it pertains to a TG bill I will be more than happy to. I don't plan to wear a "MTF TG" t-shirt everywhere but I also don't plan to hide.

Quote from: Dana Lane on April 23, 2011, 07:56:22 AM
I don't think a birth defect should automatically enroll you in an activist role.

And that point is lost on some.  It is no different than the gay or lesbian who goes about their daily life without the general public knowing what goes on behind closed doors.  Just because you fit a demographic does not mean one has to be vocal in matters pertaining to that demographic.   

It is entirely encumbent upon the individual to decide whether they wish to own a label and then from there, make a decision what they do with the label.  Personally, I chose to own the lesbian label and distanced myself from the trans label, even moreso when it began being changed to encompass all things gender.   

QuoteHowever, there still remains a fact that it does give us less numbers and strength as a whole. While I wish they could help I would never want to make them feel guilty about it. Go live your life!

ANY potentially political issues affecting a demographic is going to be under-reported in some manner.  Further, as with anything else, even if, as an example, you and I have something in common, your goal may not be my goal.  That produces an inherently fractured lobby.  Such is life.   

There was a documentary on TV the other day about the gay struggle for acceptance.  One person said something to the fact that being nice is fine but accomplishes little.  You have to get tough.  Then they discussed the Stonewall riots.  And the gay world became visible and united.

It's been over 40 years and there's still repression, but progress has been made.  The picture painted in the documentary about gay life back then was pretty much the same as it is for trans life today, lots of hiding and and fear of coming out and a totally unaccepting and ignorant society. 

How many discriminated-against groups didn't have to resort to extreme measures to achieve recognition and get on the path to equal rights?  Society rarely drops its prejudice when you ask them nicely.

Quote from: Julie Marie on April 27, 2011, 07:18:49 AM
One person said something to the fact that being nice is fine but accomplishes little.  You have to get tough..

This is so true! While I can't talk about current details, my battle with U of Penn about removal of exclusion of triadic care for transsexual faculty and staff was relentless. A higher up here told me that being more civil is how things are usually done here but then I told her "Sometimes you need to chain yourself to the Whitehouse fence". And I didn't slow down but only got more aggressive. A lot of others helped, greatly. Soon after, my battle was over, and we will be basking in victory.

Maybe because the older threads are buried under pages of newer posts and most people won't search using Simple Machines rather buggy search feature to find a years old post that may or may not exactly address a specific aspect of some issue.  Besides, who wants to read through pages of old post to see if something has already been said?  Easier to just start a new one.  It's also about a fresh take on problems that unfortunately seem to be perpetual.

Donald Trump, now THERE'S goofy. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cosgan.de%2Fimages%2Fsmilie%2Fkonfus%2Fs065.gif&hash=71601235ba38d182226807e0b64d7fe99b8c53cb)

Also thread necro is creepy...

Quote from: Jen on April 27, 2011, 04:34:10 PM
Also thread necro is creepy...

totally... (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ichloe.com%2Fimages%2Fth_zombie.gif&hash=89063100db29e46aa26c972d7b51f62c764ee1a2) (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ichloe.com%2Fimages%2Fzombie03.gif&hash=1c77e974991cddc502ee7570d0c6059fee29fcc8)

Quote from: Jen on April 27, 2011, 04:34:10 PM
Also thread necro is creepy...

Well, first you have to determine if the thread is actually dead before you can apply necromancy to it.  In this world if something is dead, it stays dead, unless it's the son of a Jewish carpenter. 

Now, if something is actually dead and it has been brought back from the dead, you can see it two ways: 1) Its resurrection is the result of someone dabbling in the Black Arts and is therefore evil (Night of the Living Dead kind of stuff) or 2) A special mode of divination has been invoked by God and therefore is good (Jesus comes to mind).

So a thread that has been said to have been necro'd may not really have been dead, only perceived to be dead.  Kind of like someone who has a near death experience; they were pronounced dead but the doctors were wrong.  In that case it was never dead and it was never necro'd so it's not creepy, just sleepy.

Or, there are evil forces at work and a practitioner of the Black Arts (a witch or warlock?) has brought the dead back to life - probably for some evil purpose and that sometimes means flesh eating ZOMBIES!

Or, there are good forces at work and the thread has come back from the dead and through it you can find eternal salvation and life ever after.

Not sure which one I'm leaning towards with this thread.  The first is kinda boring but the most logical choice.  The second... well zombies, witches and warlocks sounds like fun.  But the third, geez, we could be talking second coming stuff, maybe even a whole new religion.  Tough choice.